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"Omega" counterfeit MCMVII - Summary Wanted
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Can someone post a summary of facts and alleged events from the deleted "omega" thread? Some might want to keep a copy for future reference, but without the invective and nastiness.
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That would be nice. I was looking forward to some analysis reports and future findings from the FOI requests. Lets see if this thread will remain civil. Too bad they didn't just lock that thread instead.
(I suspect the last TTTT post was just too nasty to ignore by the forum owners.)
That was the longest thread I've ever read in 18 years of message board participation. Sad that it stopped being about the coin and became personal attacks. Hopefully some further information will be forthcoming, because now I want to know.
The Omega thread was deleted??? Oh no... darn... and I must have missed the last posts...Well, I kept a log of TTTT's posts, so I have that information anyway.
Cheers, RickO
Yep........and my follow up thread about being fed up with the Omega thread is also gone.
I posted it yesterday evening....didn't see any of the replies.
I wonder if it was just "collateral damage".
Pete
Thanks. Made a copy for future reference.
Suggest that interested persons make any copies they want, but hold comments. Would not want to see a strictly informational thread removed.
The thread was poofed because StrikeoutXXX posted an image of TTTT. TTTT wanted the thread poofed, so he raised the bar on the threats.
I think the members of this forum who started out calling TTTT as a liar, fabricator and other things should be ashamed.
He stumbled onto the forum and had unique first-hand knowledge that he released with commentary and insights that stretched believably with many here. Having met him and talked about his experiences, I think it is hard to believe that he remained composed in his posts for so long. Imagine posting your recollections from 40 years ago and have them thrown back at you as lies! You would feel maligned and insulted. "You weren't there, so how can you call me a liar" he might say.
So, he told me he went on a double date with The Donald and Marla back in the 1990's. People here called him a liar. I believe him. On another message board he posted new information about the zodiac killer. They didn't believe him there either. They called him a crank. He showed me his research on the zodiac letters and all I could say was WOW! This guy is super smart and no wonder he got offered a Gov-job even though he has a bum knee.
Anyway, you should believe as much as 80% of what he said. The rest is not correct because he is not a numismatist. We have our own specific knowledge and shouldn't dump on people from outside who venture into our world who may not have the lingo correct. (Gaudens coins, 1904, etc.)
Yea, I should have just linked to his public YouTube Zodiac Channel instead of doing a screen grab - I was trying to prove that he was a real person - some were suggesting it was not even his real name, that he was making even that up, that he was posting under 2 different accounts, etc. I could have removed the picture if it bothered him, simple Google searches would get you his info anyhow. I got caught up trying to defend him in PMs as much as I got caught up trying to find facts in the story.
TTTT seemed as forthcoming as his recollections were allowing him as Rick said for being a non-numismatist, he was doing quite well. TTTT challenged us to find proof in his recollections and to verify as much as we could, and we were slowly finding bits of information to solidify his story, tie pieces together, and possibly solve a long-standing numismatic mystery.
Sad the way things turned out for sure - we get a lot of mysteries around here, things dismissed easily because it doesn't fit in a black/white world of coins (matte proofs being found, special presentation pieces, suspicious error coins, long missed DDOs surfacing, etc) that are scoffed at - usually until someone gets some proof or it's authenticated correctly. We didn't have enough time to get to that point in this story as it turned ugly.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
I typed out a longer reply, but thought better of it.
Perhaps an open forum was a poor place to go public with this. Even simple threads often go off the rails. This one was bound to, especially when some pretty basic questions went unanswered.
@EagleEye ...Thank you for your post. I noted your posts in the original thread, and, for me, your credulity supported credence to TTTT's information. Thank you for your inputs. Cheers, RickO
in my experience, nobody lies 20% of the time - it's either almost all or almost nothing
also, it's human nature to want to believe a good story
While I did not read the last few posts that lead to the poofing of the thread, I read almost all the posts. Of those posts, I do not recall anyone calling TTTT "a liar, fabricator and other things." I do recall people making posts questioning some of his assertions but that is a far cry from "liar, fabricator and other things."
As far as posting recollections from 40 years ago, I definitely agree that some can be hazy and maybe even i correct. But when posters pointed out that some specific points were simply unbelievable, such as 1) the President Wilson autographed picture, 2) the advice that placing an Omega on the coin made it no longer a counterfeit, 3) the assertion that millions in profit were made from the counterfeits, TTTT never once agreed that his recollection might have been off or perhaps exaggerated. Instead, he seemed to double down on every point. In addition to these sorts of unbelievable assertions, the more general details he presented also seemed to change, such as the time span over which the counterfeits were produced or his knowledge of the presses.
I'd really like to believe TTTT's story, simply because it is so cool. But I have significant concerns. So maybe someone--
@StrikeOutXXX perhaps--will actually be able to verify some aspects of TTTT's story that were not known before his posts and thereby make his story more credible. In that case, I would be very happy to believe because I really want to!
The thread went off the rails when TTTT started calling a forum member the Nit for asking logical questions. His arrogance was off the charts. His Zodiac Killer channel on Youtube reminded me of Public Access Television from the 80's.
Latin American Collection
Haha, that was awful.
"Nit" is nothing. In episode 3, he said a guy who claimed that he had pareidolia was named "Milf," which was hilarious. Yeah, I watched it. I'm never getting those minutes of my life back.
We all got taken for a fun little ride with his Omega story.
I still liked the "end of the problem" reasoning for the Omega symbol!
In any event, it was entertaining while it lasted.
Yup. Some interesting material. Mostly dime-store drama. Much of what was offered was clearly deceptive and manipulative. In the end, quite little meaningful information.
I do believe that we will be hearing more of this issue....
Cheers, RickO
20% of the tale is believable, 40% was information plugged in by actual board members, the remaining 40% was embellished. One way or another it was an 'epic' thread created for our amusement. I for one enjoyed the tale of suspense, fiction, non-fiction, truths and assorted odds and ends.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Does anybody have a raw genuine High Relief and the capabilities of taking some good photographs of certain parts of the edge lettering?
Rick Montgomery at NGC was kind enough to send me certain pictures of an Omega counterfeit edge, and is on the lookout for a genuine coin that can be photographed, but I thought I might have luck trying here as well.
@CaptHenway said: "Does anybody have a raw genuine High Relief and the capabilities of taking some good photographs of certain parts of the edge lettering?"
Yes, What part of which collar would you like to see? Several were used.
@jmlanzaf
ROTFL. Don't believe all you think you know. Siehst du, wie leicht du törichter Mann bist? Ich denke jetzt bin ich ein Deutscher!
Congratulations! However, Just because @totellthetruth could not remember exactly what was in a photo he saw on a wall or what a master hub was - does not invalidate the story he
posted. 
Well. at the least he likes the attention.
Please, no one cares who I like or don't like. I left kindergarten school in ah....I cannot remember the date or what I posted in the deleted thread about the photos on the wall.
BTW, I have no connection to our host or this forum except as a member who is allowed to post. I control nothing. Your comment: "For some reason Insider2 wants me to pass a test to be allowed to keep posting on HIS boards" is silly. I gave you a LOL.
IMO, our private communications (PM's) have no place in any discussion on this forum (that should be a warning to others who answer any PM's you initiate). No one cares about us. All our postings have done is derail another thread about the "Omega" coins. So sad. TTTT is gone.
Now, how about sticking to coins?
Posters should remember why the original threads were deleted and not repeat the circumstances.
Agree...........tread LIGHTLY
Pete
Question #3 answered (Mr.Omega please write) in the deleted thread. Apparently, with no luck.
The coins were only written about a few times by the authenticator, internet web sites, or mentioned now and then in counterfeit seminars. So, no intense follow up was ever done. Most information appears to be mostly second-party "filler" sticking to the facts that the coins were made and how to detect them. The only "new" information (?) to arouse interest was shared with us by @totellthetruth.
He has posted what should be some easily confirmed facts (previously unknown by any numismatist) as he remembered them before he was run off.
I requested any and all information on investigating Counterfeit 1907 $20 Gold or "Omega or "Omega Man" investigations in the late 60's or early 70's. I also specifically asked for any records pertaining to tracking a coin press from Argentina via truck/train to Tuscon Arizona to the Pappadeas Junk Yard on Stone Avenue.
That was all the information I had at the time of the request. I am waiting to see if anything comes back.
When you do the request online, you pick a drop-down of agencies, which I picked Secret Service.
A subsequent one may be needed if it was an FBI investigation (with help from the Mexican Federales) in Nogales Senora, possibly belonging to Kiriakis looking for a marine diesel engine. TTTT related he thought that the feds visited the junkyard closer to 1973 was it?
I could potentially request any information on surveillance photos/information of an Italian National visiting/staying with Bonanno likely between the years of 1968 to 1970.
I can also perhaps ask for any records of activities at Metro Auto Plastic Co., 1926 N. Stone Ave. on/about the date it was bombed (the location of the coining operation). "An FBI agent reported that a Metro owner socialized in nightclubs with gangsters and "has been repairing the automobiles for most all of the hoodlums in Tucson for the past several years." That agent was likely Hale. Joe Sebastian owned the body shop and it was bombed September 13, 1968.
Remember, TTTT said the coining operation was in full swing when the bombings were taking place, and that specific building was hit. That is roughly 5 years of coin production.
I can't find if ex FBI agent David Olin Hale is still alive to perhaps reach out for details.
I've been working on identifying the Italian engraver with no luck.
No luck (haven't done much here) trying to trace Mint Employees and Genealogy/family history of possibly a son about the same age as the Idea man.
I'm getting ready for vacation for a week, so slacking on the Omega front lately.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
You ask much.
I did not, only what info I had early in the poofed thread as stated above. I'm waiting til I get the 1st back to see if it provides anything, or I get useful info from PMs first. Plus, If the first search takes many hours and many pieces of paper need to pay that one first.
You can submit online or through an app. Link to FOI is on right side here. https://www.secretservice.gov/press/foia/request/
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
One other thing I've been curious about is if there were indeed somewhere around 20,000 Omega's made - I don't think I ever got a solid answer as to that, but TTTT threw the number out a few times, but some were scrapped when the operation was suddenly shut down - however, he said as coins were made, new planchets (rolled Mexico Peso's) were brought in, and counterfeits taken out into the logistical channels to Sky Harbor/Phoenix Airport was it?
From all accounts - I think insider or CaptHenway made the comment somewhere that they only believe a few hundred made it into collectors hands - where the heck are all of them?
Melted? In some large holding somewhere in the US? Perhaps originally sold/shipped overseas? (Didn't I read a thread a few months back about a large amount of US gold being physically returned to the US soon?) If the operation met resistance with ANACS around 1971, but the operation lasted a few more years - maybe they gave up on collectors and found an investment house or overseas trust of some sort to take them.
Where would bags upon bags of US Gold coins be sitting right now (if not melted in the past) that likely isn't looked at from a numismatist point of view?
PS - I have the PDF of all of TTTTs comments - didn't someone say they save the whole original thread as a PDF too - anyone care to PM me with that, some of my own posts with info I lost and am working from memory here (plus others had good posts not preserved from jmlanzaf's PDF above).
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
My guess is most got melted. The rest are either in dealer C/F collections or possible a few in old collections But any though of as genuine in these old collections would have hit the market as possibly 60% of the people around in the 1970's are dead.
BTW, one of mine (photo in Capitol holder in deleted thread) was headed to the refiner when the dealer friend gave it to me!
RE: "...as coins were made, new planchets (rolled Mexico Peso's) were brought in,..."
Metal does not work this way. Rolling out a coin flattens, elongates and blurs the design, but it also work hardens it. A rolled out coin could never be used as a blank or planchet in any type of press. The US Mint rolled out coins because it made them easier and faster to melt. See the articles of Pittman Silver Dollars)
PS; A FOIA request to FBI or USSS can take a year or longer to process.