@sellitstore - the obverse tool marks were described in the original thread with:
"Here's an example, you have one of the most talented master engravers in the world whose work is incredible. You give him a big project but he doesn't like part of it and argues. He loses the argument with the boss and does his incredibly stressful job by himself to not be distracted. The work is tedious and takes a lot of time. It can not be done in one day, not even one week. He is so annoyed by the thing that he lost over the argument about that he becomes angry. People are worried, but his work progresses and is incredible. The smiles are starting to break out and hopes are high. People are celebrating the near completion of a phase of a project and then it happens. Your employee has had more cognac than you knew. He shifts his weight, loses his balance for just a second while striking his tiny little die with his tiny little hammer and oh no. What happened? What do we do now? Oh well, the two little wormy intertwined marks can't be any worse than that "god damn flag waving in the wind"."
(The flag referring to the Omega sign on the reverse)
@CaptHenway said:
There are various non-destructive testing methods that give you a very precise reading of the contents without harming the object. I for one would love to see the test results on an "Omega" $20.
Yes, be interesting to see what XRF scanning or the better machines show - I think they were both .900 gold, but there may be slight differences in the .100 used between the 2 mints. Perhaps trace elements only in the Mexico 50's and Omega's versus legit 1907's.
Every "Omega" counterfeit seen by us, wherever and whenever they were struck, was struck from two copy dies and a copied segmented collar. I make no allegations as to how these copy dies or the copied collar were made. There are various techniques that have been used by various counterfeiters at various times and places with varying success. That said, as counterfeits go these are high quality counterfeits.
It would be interesting to know the characteristics of the copied segmented collar. Probably the same on all the Omega-marked coins, but.... those 40 or so struck from original dies before they started to degrade, I'm wondering if they also used the copied segmented collar. Could possibly be a way to identify those.
There is no proven connection between the operation that made the "Omega" $20's and any other "Omega" counterfeit. It is possible that the "Omega" marks were created on different dies by one individual who worked for two or more different operations at two or more different times. The high quality of the "Omega" $20 counterfeits indicated that they were made by a skilled counterfeiter with experience at his trade. We do not know what other counterfeits he made before or after the "Omega" $20 operation. Anything else is speculation.
Although the $3 Omegas could be related, I don't think 4T knew about them. In the 1st thread he stated:
"I do not think Bonanno had anything to do with the $3 dollar coin. I never even knew about it till I began posting on this thread."
and
"If the syndicate was making $3 dollars on top of Gaudins, that is a syndicate secret."
He did allude later to the possibility though with this, referring to the engraver:
"Eventually, a new master hub was created. It was my understanding this hub had to be polished after about 500 coins were stamped. In the meantime he did exactly what I told you...he worked on his suntan and he was collecting his payroll. Lets just say the new owners felt this was a waste of time and money so new projects were instituted to keep him busy. The new owners operation and STANDARDS were not to the same level as Mr. B's. Hence, new coins with different quality standards with the same flag on them. Hope you figured it out."
As to the availability of Mexico $50 Gold Pesos in the later 1960's - whether he used them at first, only some, or all - 1947 Restrikes were happening up through 1972 (as well as again later, but not pertinent to this event) I have a feeling they were not as scarce as one might think.
I've had a chance to go over most of the posts again. I don't have time to post at the moment but here are some things to consider:
After all these years, I believe much of what TTTT has posted happened. Mr. B was involved, where the coins were made, and TTTT connection. However, there is a lot of unverifiable info, conjecture, and misinformation in these threads. For example, a Denver Mint ledger page was briefly posted as a joke and TTTT used this to confirm that HR dies left the Mint. It is a shame this joke caused more misinformation to the story.
This is what I believe so far based on the coins themselves: TTTT knows a lot of what went on. NO GENUINE HR DIES WERE USED TO PRODUCE THE FAKES. Every fake "Omega" $20 was produced by the same dies. I've examined other counterfeit HR's (not "Omega's") but they are not very deceptive to a professional authenticator. So, I believe transfer dies were delivered to Mr. B. IMO, NO first batch w/o the "Omega" exists. They would have turned up. The genuine HR coins were struck on a "huge" medal press. Mr. B's press was a "baby."
I believe What is left to do is to analyse a few genuine coins, a few Omega's, and a few 50 Pesos. Gold and silver mined from different sources have different trace elements. This will probably determine if 50 Pesos were used for planchets or not.
I believe an x-ray diffraction test on an electron microscope will reveal the alloy of the gold and could prove if the Omega $20's match the Mexican 50 pesos alloy. You don't have to destroy the coin to tell.
@sellitstore said:
"NO first batch w/o the "Omega" exists. They would have turned up."
How would these be differentiated from genuine coins? I think that was one of the points of TTTTs original thread.
As I said way back when, they would have to have been struck in an original three-piece collar as well. A fake three-piece collar would exhibit evidence that would expose the pieces as modern strikes, or counterfeits if you will.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@sellitstore said:
"NO first batch w/o the "Omega" exists. They would have turned up."
How would these be differentiated from genuine coins? I think that was one of the points of TTTTs original thread.
Trust me, it would not be hard.
Look. Back then in the early 70's, I was a "rookie" (with a microscope). Even then, I had seen enough coins to be able to tell when a coin looked "different." That is the basis for C/F detection 101. STUDY genuine coins under magnification. Then, if you see something different, you will not know one way or another if it is genuine or not BUT you will know it is unlike anything you've seen before! Now, you are ready to determine if it is genuine or not.
Additionally, back then the Mint kept much of the minting process secret. The die material, the annealing temperatures, the press tonnage, etc. That's why the STRUCK counterfeits of the day looked so bad that the "expert" authenticators' of the time thought they were casts!
I'm sorry I cannot reveal the state of coin authentication/authenticators' in the late 60's early 70's from my perspective. Too self serving. I'll just say that by 1973 things took a giant leap forward and the foundation of "modern" coin authentication was laid at the ANA's Certification Service in DC.
@Mark said: @Insider2 Based on what you have seen as an authenticator, is the number of 20,000 fake Omegas credible?
Thanks in advance.
NO! But I was not there when they were struck.
Perhaps the crooks melted a bunch after they were exposed. Additionally, when a new fake is discovered and how to ID it, often the fake dies are corrected and more fakes made. This was not the case with any "Omega!" I have seen two with the "signature" scratched off. All the other diagnostics were present.
@sellitstore said:
"NO first batch w/o the "Omega" exists. They would have turned up."
How would these be differentiated from genuine coins? I think that was one of the points of TTTTs original thread.
4T's describes the dies as in bad shape (rusty) and on the verge of collapse. He says, in fact, that they did collapse after those magical 40 coins. Any struck coins from those dies - as confirmed by Daniel Carr on this thread - would show fatigue evidence from the impending collapse. The removal of the rust on the dies would also be transparent to anyone with a modicum of experience. Even if they did strike 40 coins from those collapsing dies, they would have been destroyed as failed test strikes not sold into the marketplace.
@totellthetruth said:
Jml, very, very good. May I add that they may have been given to very ,very close friends who aided or assisted MrB in his enterprise.
.....and yet apparently none of those '40' or so have
shown up for authentication or grading. (with the
impending die fatigue/collapse)
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Hmmm, not sure if all would have been submitted for grading and that if so, that some may have gotten through in any case. I see all kinds of "mechanical" errors....LOL
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Is there a summary handy on how many were minted at the US Mint vs.
How many US Mint produced survive today?
Of the survival population, how many US Mint versions are "formally" graded?
Of the graded, would any grader prior to the 4T communication have known to identify one of the 40 impending die fatigue/collapses as relates to the Omega vintage timeframe
* Of the 40 what is the probability that any were turned in for grading, i.e. or likely treated as poor quality bullion and stored away for investment
But I didn't say 'all', I said 'apparently none'
have been submitted.
Logic says that if there were up to 40 pieces extant,
at least a few or more of them would have been submitted,
but not a single HR has been reported with any potential or
possible or actual 'die fatigue' or impending die collapse.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Insider has repeatedly posted that he would like me to continue posting as he feels I have more info. He has undoubtedly spent a lot of time researching the Omega and he is correct, there is a lot I have not revealed for personal reasons. That doe not mean that I am messing with this forum or trying to deny things. It took me 50 years to get here just to say "I happen to know alittle something about the Omega coin". I have tried to help guide those whos conclusions or thought process was going in the right direction. If they came up with a conclusion that was correct, I may not say right on but possibly that it was a very, very good conclusion. I have also thrown out "food for thought" .
I also have tried to get members to say things like in my opinion or to the highest degree of probability instead of a pure factual statement which is not fact. I have far more respect when an expert says..in my opinion to the highest degree of probability, there we no originals because they should have entered the system by this point and would have been detected by expert authenticators. This statement is an opinion and leaves room for error as the highest degree of probability still leaves room for the opposite conclusion to be true.
Taking the two statements above, the last major flaw I have observe is that too many people are drawing conclusions based on todays standards and not those of the 60's and early 70's. Big, big mistake.
Remember that I posted CLEARLY that my fathers role was to keep Joe Bonanno out of jail by not getting arrested. He was an advisor in this escapade. Knowing that, use common sense and logic and things will flow much better. Also remember that these were amateurs, not coin makers or counterfeiters in the very beginning. If they did something that does make sence, that is because you are educated and know what the right thing to do was. They had too learn with time, advice and experience.
This story has been presented to you in chronological stages, start to finish. Each stage was presented to an attorney for his professional advice. The advice given may have made things harder or more risky, but it was better than going to jail. Stage 1...someone wants to sell me genuine US Mint die. How do I even look at them without going to jail? I am under 24 hour surveillance by the FBI. You know the story. Stage 2....If I buy these, am I in possession of stolen property and will I go to jail? You know the story Stage 3...the expert not only said they are real, but that they can be still productive. If I use them will I go to jail? You know the story. Lets skip some stages. We are ready to punch out coins. The behavior of the engraver has been unbearable, if this fails or their is an accident, I can't go thru that again nor can I afford it.
Solution, use the original die for test run, test production. HIGH RISK....making a coin that is now nearly identical and could be prosecuted for federal crime of counterfeiting. Possession of those coins is as bad as it comes in this entire episode. Final stage....Mr.Keriaken, owner of La Caverna in Nogales, Mexico calls his American lawyer in Tucson with some important information. Did you guys get that part. His American lawyer advises Mr. B to liquidate anything that is high risk and may link him to this caper. Maybe a few small things don't have to destroyed, but get rid of them.
Now look at some of the last few posts. The originals were never made...really? They never were discovered and they should have...really? They would have been poor quality...really?
Even though the story TTTT is plausible and I believe JB was the Omega man he has made up the part about the originals...Really? They should have gone thru the coin collecting system and been discovered.....really? Has anyone ever heard of coins being used in Jewelry? Was Newton Pfeiffer a celebrity jeweler to the mob? Wow!
@7Jaguars said:
Hmmm, not sure if all would have been submitted for grading and that if so, that some may have gotten through in any case. I see all kinds of "mechanical" errors....LOL
If I had to take a guess, probably 90+% of the HR issue has been examined closely by professional dealers and authenticators since 1972! I and others have possibly recorded the emission sequence and die/edge combinations of these coins. It is highly unlikely that anyone outside of a major world power could produce a fake that would defy detection even today. Mr. B COULD NOT MAKE ONE BACK THEN that would pass!
I'll remind readers that unlike the fakes that are passing as genuine today, NOT ONE "Omega" or any other C/F 1907 HR coin was ever certified as genuine by the Certification Service.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@totellthetruth posted: "Now look at some of the last few posts. The originals were never made...really? [If they were made, they have NEVER TURNED UP - not one in fifty years!] They never were discovered and they should have...really? [Yes, really, anything would have been better than the one's that hit the market and in fifty years - NADA as they say in AZ] They would have been poor quality...really? [They could have been the best counterfeits ever made, absolutely undetectable EXCEPT coins have three sides. The die polish on all genuine US mint collars for these coins is a matter of record. Any unknown collar would immediately raise suspicion.]
Even though the story TTTT is plausible and I believe JB was the Omega man he has made up the part about the originals...Really? [This was NEVER SAID. What was written was there is NO EVIDENCE of any dies leaving the Mint and someone posted a joke using a Denver ledger to "pull your chain."] They should have gone thru the coin collecting system and been discovered.....really? Has anyone ever heard of coins being used in Jewelry? Was Newton Pfeiffer a celebrity jeweler to the mob? Wow! [Even HR jewelry has come under scrutiny. I've probably handled at least a dozen beat up, repaired, and polished ex-jewelry pieces over the years that were all genuine known dies!]
Finally, most everything that all of us post is to be considered AN OPINION and not "gospel." It is a waste of time to make that clear with each post. Strange things happen in life. is is possible that genuine dies were stolen? Yes. Is it possible that badly rusted genuine dies were dug and the corrosion was tooled from their surface? Yes. Is it possible genuine $20 were used to make the planchets or even 50 Pesos? Yes. There are thousands of possibilities. SO FAR,the actual "Omega" coins themselves don't support any of them.
Let's see what they are made of. I'm going to work on it.
What is going on? I go away for a few hours and you gang up on @totellthetruth
Did we not just recently see a High Relief Saint in a money clip? Isn't that exactly the kind of jewelry a mafia man might carry? Why couldn't JB have given away 10 or 20 of those and they are still out there?
And if you have a crappy, obviously fake HR Saint, why would you submit it to a grading service?
I'm not sure why everyone is nitpicking on these silly little things when there are much bigger truths here to be investigated.
Did we not just recently see a High Relief Saint in a money clip? Isn't that exactly the kind of jewelry a mafia man might carry? Why couldn't JB have given away 10 or 20 of those and they are still out there?
And if you have a crappy, obviously fake HR Saint, why would you submit it to a grading service?
I'm not sure why everyone is nitpicking on these silly little things when there are much bigger truths here to be investigated.
One of the most important "truths" about the information that TTTT has provided concerns the actual dies used to strike the coins. Were discarded genuine dies used or not? Of course souvenirs were given away. That is completely believable. It changes nothing. They either had the "signature" or did not. In any case, they needed to be struck in a counterfeit collar. So far, only "signed" coins have turned up.
TTTT has told us much of what he remembers and lots of it can be backed up. Now, we need to fill in the blanks. The composition of the fakes is a good next step. How many were produced? Where are the dies now?
Here is a thought, 10,000 Spanish Trail 50c were struck. Half the number of C/F HR's supposedly struck. They are all over the place. Where are the fake $20? I contend (if they existed in that number) most were destroyed. Proof? Try and buy one.
I thought the jeweler sold coins individually out of store? I'd like to ask, do you have any idea of what a high relief sold for out of jewelers store? I posted a photo taken out of the 1969 Red Book of what a high relief was valued at in unc for posterity, along with inflation calculator to adjust for present value to account for inflation. Just curious how many high reliefs minted, sold, and the amount of revenue generated from this project? I know you don't have all these answers; yet, just helps understand the motive, process, and end result a bit more.
If the test strikes were given out to crime family members, why would they or their heirs submit a known counterfeit to a TPG and risk arrest or getting “disappeared” ? These guys are generally pretty professional and seems unlikely they would assume the obvious risk for a small and unlikely reward
@drfish said:
If the test strikes were given out to crime family members, why would they or their heirs submit a known counterfeit to a TPG and risk arrest or getting “disappeared” ? These guys are generally pretty professional and seems unlikely they would assume the obvious risk for a small and unlikely reward
Exactly... Of course I'm the one that suggested "test strikes". The original story says these are perfect and have never yet been detected.
The important thing to remember is that one should never let facts get in the way of faith.
@drfish said:
If the test strikes were given out to crime family members, why would they or their heirs submit a known counterfeit to a TPG and risk arrest or getting “disappeared” ? These guys are generally pretty professional and seems unlikely they would assume the obvious risk for a small and unlikely reward
Gag, Roll eyes and throw up.
No one is going to submit a known fake! The guys are dead. If these "gifts" even exist they are in the hands of folks who may not know they are fakes.
Anyway, this is more "fluff" in my opinion. We are writing about things that may not even exist and that's how threads go into the weeds! Did Mr. B strike any Proofs? LOL.
@drfish said:
If the test strikes were given out to crime family members, why would they or their heirs submit a known counterfeit to a TPG and risk arrest or getting “disappeared” ? These guys are generally pretty professional and seems unlikely they would assume the obvious risk for a small and unlikely reward
Exactly... Of course I'm the one that suggested "test strikes". The original story says these are perfect and have never yet been detected.
The important thing to remember is that one should never let facts get in the way of faith.
The LACK OF A GENUINE COLLAR crushes any theory that the coins were perfect and undetectable.
@FredWeinberg said:
Just an observation - in comparing the quality of two counterfeit
coins mentioned in the posts, the Omega HR and the 1882 $3 gold,
it's like comparing a Rolls Royce with a Volkswagen.
One you needed to see the Omega to tell the coin was counterfeit,
and the other was so bad you didn't need to see the Omega on it
at all to know it was counterfeit.
Same 'Omega' mark maybe, but two totally, totally different
qualities of counterfeit US gold coins.
This is interesting. I wonder why that would be. The Omega HR should have been the harder coin to manufacture bye a wide margin
On the edge, yes, the $20 high-relief $20 would be harder to replicate than the $3. A reeded edge is easier to produce than a raised letter edge.
But for the obverse and reverse dies, the high-relief can actually make it EASIER. Think of it this way:
When replicating an existing coin/hub/die there is certain amount of accuracy in the replication. But the accuracy is never 100.0% Suppose the transfer/molding process is done using a reduction (Janvier) lathe. And suppose the lathe has an accuracy in the relief height of 0.001" (one one-thousandth of an inch). If the total relief is high, for example 0.040", then the error would be plus or minus 2.5% of the relief. But for a low relief coin, for example 0.010" total relief height, the error would be plus or minus 10% of the relief (which would make it more apparent visually).
No one is going to submit a known fake! The guys are dead. If these "gifts" even exist they are in the hands of folks who may not know they are fakes.
Anyway, this is more "fluff" in my opinion. We are writing about things that may not even exist and that's how threads go into the weeds! Did Mr. B strike any Proofs? LOL.
Actually, Breen acquired the dies and used them to strike proofs. It was brilliant, really. Who better to counterfeit coins than the person who could actually authenticate his own handiwork.
This is interesting. I wonder why that would be. The Omega HR should have been the harder coin to manufacture bye a wide margin
On the edge, yes, the $20 high-relief $20 would be harder to replicate than the $3. A reeded edge is easier to produce than a raised letter edge.
But for the obverse and reverse dies, the high-relief can actually make it EASIER. Think of it this way:
When replicating an existing coin/hub/die there is certain amount of accuracy in the replication. But the accuracy is never 100.0% Suppose the transfer/molding process is done using a reduction (Janvier) lathe. And suppose the lathe has an accuracy in the relief height of 0.001" (one one-thousandth of an inch). If the total relief is high, for example 0.040", then the error would be plus or minus 2.5% of the relief. But for a low relief coin, for example 0.010" total relief height, the error would be plus or minus 10% of the relief (which would make it more apparent visually).
Yes, I can see that. I was thinking of the striking.
I just did a little fact checking on the possibility of using a Mexico 50 Pesos gold piece (without any melting) to make a "blank" planchet for a US gold Double Eagle.
First, the density of an alloy of 10% copper and 90% gold (by weight):
Gold density (grams per cubic centimeter): 19.3
Copper density (grams per cubic centimeter): 8.96
.900 gold / .100 copper alloy (grams per cubic centimeter): (.900 * 19.3) + (.100 * 8.96) = 18.266
Here are the numbers from the Krause World Coin Catalog:
Mexico 50 Pesos:
.900 fine gold, 41.667 grams total weight, 37mm diameter (1.85 centimeter radius).
At that weight, the nominal thickness would be:
41.667 / (3.1416 * 1.85 * 1.85 * 18.266) = 0.212cm = 2.12mm = 0.0835 inches.
US $20 Double Eagle:
.900 fine gold, 33.436 grams total weight, 39mm diameter (1.70 centimeter radius).
At that weight, the nominal thickness would be:
33.436 / (3.1416 * 1.70 * 1.70 * 18.266) = 0.202cm = 2.02mm = 0.0800 inches.
If a 34mm circle was punched out of the middle of a 37mm Mexico gold 50 pesos piece, the resulting nominal weight of the disc would be 41.667 * (34 * 34) / (37 * 37) = 35.184 grams. This is heavier than a US Double Eagle at 33.436 grams. So the 50 peso could actually be first rolled out to about 95% of its original nominal thickness. That would result in a reduction of the relief height on both sides by about 0.002". That alone would only obliterate perhaps 5% to 10% of the original detail. Annealing and striking would obliterate a lot more. But it would require some physical testing to see how close to a perfect over-strike would be possible without any of the original detail showing.
If a 34mm circle was punched out of the middle of a 37mm Mexico gold 50 pesos piece, the resulting nominal weight of the disc would be 41.667 * (34 * 34) / (37 * 37) = 35.184 grams. This is heavier than a US Double Eagle at 33.436 grams. So the 50 peso could actually be first rolled out to about 95% of its original nominal thickness. That would result in a reduction of the relief height on both sides by about 0.002". That alone would only obliterate perhaps 5% to 10% of the original detail. Annealing and striking would obliterate a lot more. But it would require some physical testing to see how close to a perfect over-strike would be possible without any of the original detail showing.
Wouldn't it be easier just to melt the coins and start from scratch?
One of the most important "truths" about the information that TTTT has provided concerns the actual dies used to strike the coins. Were discarded genuine dies used or not? Of course souvenirs were given away. That is completely believable. It changes nothing. They either had the "signature" or did not. In any case, they needed to be struck in a counterfeit collar. So far, only "signed" coins have turned up.
How do we know they needed to be struck in a counterfeit collar? Are the collars for the omegas mapped and that's how you know?
I have shot myself in the foot. I have posted that I would like to buy an Omega coin. It does not need to be authenticated as I already know it is fake. Unfortunately the popularity of this coin is going back up and so is the price. I don't blame the sellers as it is in demand and I may be part of the rise in popularity. So would someone just burn a damn coin or whatever you do to them and then make me eat crow so the price will go back down and I can get one.
If a 34mm circle was punched out of the middle of a 37mm Mexico gold 50 pesos piece, the resulting nominal weight of the disc would be 41.667 * (34 * 34) / (37 * 37) = 35.184 grams. This is heavier than a US Double Eagle at 33.436 grams. So the 50 peso could actually be first rolled out to about 95% of its original nominal thickness. That would result in a reduction of the relief height on both sides by about 0.002". That alone would only obliterate perhaps 5% to 10% of the original detail. Annealing and striking would obliterate a lot more. But it would require some physical testing to see how close to a perfect over-strike would be possible without any of the original detail showing.
Wouldn't it be easier just to melt the coins and start from scratch?
Yes, if you had an efficient way to melt two or more 50 peso coins into an ingot (easy), and a way to roll out that ingot to proper thickness (a little more difficult and requires rolling mill equipment).
@totellthetruth said:
I have shot myself in the foot. I have posted that I would like to buy an Omega coin. It does not need to be authenticated as I already know it is fake. Unfortunately the popularity of this coin is going back up and so is the price. I don't blame the sellers as it is in demand and I may be part of the rise in popularity. So would someone just burn a damn coin or whatever you do to them and then make me eat crow so the price will go back down and I can get one.
Honestly, it's not that simple unless someone (not me) already has a trace metal profile of Mexican 50 pesos...AND...that profile stayed the same for multiple years. If Mexico used different suppliers over the years, for example, there might be a variable trace metal profile.
So....it might be necessary to do a statistical analysis on multiple Mexico 50 pesos to have something to compare to. Both U.S. coins and Mexican 50 pesos are nominally 90% gold and 10% copper.
If you go way back, I believe I posted there was a roller and a mill man. Also an anneiler, but I never heard of melting. Maybe melted elsewhere . One man was a press operator, another a miller the last an engraver. They all spoke Russian.
@totellthetruth said:
If you go way back, I believe I posted there was a roller and a mill man. Also an anneiler, but I never heard of melting. Maybe melted elsewhere . One man was a press operator, another a miller the last an engraver. They all spoke Russian.
Yes. If they could roll out the 50 pesos and anneal them, I don't think it would be much harder to melt them and roll them out. That would explain why there is no understrike.
@totellthetruth said:
If you go way back, I believe I posted there was a roller and a mill man. Also an anneiler, but I never heard of melting. Maybe melted elsewhere . One man was a press operator, another a miller the last an engraver. They all spoke Russian.
Yes. If they could roll out the 50 pesos and anneal them, I don't think it would be much harder to melt them and roll them out. That would explain why there is no understrike.
True. But lacking a rolling mill there would still be a way to do it.
First, stamp the 50 Pesos coins with large diameter blank (flat) dies using the coin press, with it adjusted so that the resulting strike causes a 5% reduction in the nominal thickness. Then you could punch a 34mm disc out of the middle. That way, you wouldn't need a rolling mill at all.
@jwitten said:
I have a roll of Omegas that was given to my by my godfather. I can't tell you who he is or I would have to kill you. Here are a couple of them.
Well, you've got extras. You could sell one to Dr. D.
Lol, I really only had those three. They all presented themselves to me at the same time, so I snapped them up. I only have one left, and it would take a lot to buy it.
@jwitten said:
Lol, I really only had those three. They all presented themselves to me at the same time, so I snapped them up. I only have one left, and it would take a lot to buy it.
Poor Dr. D.
Maybe we should go metal detecting in the old auto salvage yard and see what's buried there.
@dcarr said:
I just did a little fact checking on the possibility of using a Mexico 50 Pesos gold piece (without any melting) to make a "blank" planchet for a US gold Double Eagle.
First, the density of an alloy of 10% copper and 90% gold (by weight):
Gold density (grams per cubic centimeter): 19.3
Copper density (grams per cubic centimeter): 8.96
.900 gold / .100 copper alloy (grams per cubic centimeter): (.900 * 19.3) + (.100 * 8.96) = 18.266
Here are the numbers from the Krause World Coin Catalog:
Mexico 50 Pesos:
.900 fine gold, 41.667 grams total weight, 37mm diameter (1.85 centimeter radius).
At that weight, the nominal thickness would be:
41.667 / (3.1416 * 1.85 * 1.85 * 18.266) = 0.212cm = 2.12mm = 0.0835 inches.
US $20 Double Eagle:
.900 fine gold, 33.436 grams total weight, 39mm diameter (1.70 centimeter radius).
At that weight, the nominal thickness would be:
33.436 / (3.1416 * 1.70 * 1.70 * 18.266) = 0.202cm = 2.02mm = 0.0800 inches.
If a 34mm circle was punched out of the middle of a 37mm Mexico gold 50 pesos piece, the resulting nominal weight of the disc would be 41.667 * (34 * 34) / (37 * 37) = 35.184 grams. This is heavier than a US Double Eagle at 33.436 grams. So the 50 peso could actually be first rolled out to about 95% of its original nominal thickness. That would result in a reduction of the relief height on both sides by about 0.002". That alone would only obliterate perhaps 5% to 10% of the original detail. Annealing and striking would obliterate a lot more. But it would require some physical testing to see how close to a perfect over-strike would be possible without any of the original detail showing.
As I said in my comments in one of the old deleted threads about punching $20 diameter "planchets" out of 50 Pesos coins, you must remember that the weight of the 50 Pesos is not evenly distributed across the coin because of the raised designs towards the centers of each side. Flattening them first would make it easier to do the math.
That said, I still believe that some of the 50 Pesos designs would survive any flattening and overstriking and be visible on the surface of the resultant coins.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
My opinion/my view/my observations only,
is that the Omega $20 HR's have nothing to
do with Mexico 50 Peso Gold pieces either
being melted down, cut down, rolled down, etc.
I could be wrong, I'm glad to change my
view with the right info, but I just don't
see it.
(they look more similar in color to Austrian
100 Corona's, which were illegal in the US
till 1974, but were easily available, 'under
the counter', in coin shops and shows across
the country, in very large quantities if wanted.
I am NOT saying they are they source of the Omega gold pieces.)
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Comments
Omega:
One
Mental
Experiment
Goes
Awry
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
@sellitstore - the obverse tool marks were described in the original thread with:
"Here's an example, you have one of the most talented master engravers in the world whose work is incredible. You give him a big project but he doesn't like part of it and argues. He loses the argument with the boss and does his incredibly stressful job by himself to not be distracted. The work is tedious and takes a lot of time. It can not be done in one day, not even one week. He is so annoyed by the thing that he lost over the argument about that he becomes angry. People are worried, but his work progresses and is incredible. The smiles are starting to break out and hopes are high. People are celebrating the near completion of a phase of a project and then it happens. Your employee has had more cognac than you knew. He shifts his weight, loses his balance for just a second while striking his tiny little die with his tiny little hammer and oh no. What happened? What do we do now? Oh well, the two little wormy intertwined marks can't be any worse than that "god damn flag waving in the wind"."
(The flag referring to the Omega sign on the reverse)
Yes, be interesting to see what XRF scanning or the better machines show - I think they were both .900 gold, but there may be slight differences in the .100 used between the 2 mints. Perhaps trace elements only in the Mexico 50's and Omega's versus legit 1907's.
It would be interesting to know the characteristics of the copied segmented collar. Probably the same on all the Omega-marked coins, but.... those 40 or so struck from original dies before they started to degrade, I'm wondering if they also used the copied segmented collar. Could possibly be a way to identify those.
Although the $3 Omegas could be related, I don't think 4T knew about them. In the 1st thread he stated:
"I do not think Bonanno had anything to do with the $3 dollar coin. I never even knew about it till I began posting on this thread."
and
"If the syndicate was making $3 dollars on top of Gaudins, that is a syndicate secret."
He did allude later to the possibility though with this, referring to the engraver:
"Eventually, a new master hub was created. It was my understanding this hub had to be polished after about 500 coins were stamped. In the meantime he did exactly what I told you...he worked on his suntan and he was collecting his payroll. Lets just say the new owners felt this was a waste of time and money so new projects were instituted to keep him busy. The new owners operation and STANDARDS were not to the same level as Mr. B's. Hence, new coins with different quality standards with the same flag on them. Hope you figured it out."
As to the availability of Mexico $50 Gold Pesos in the later 1960's - whether he used them at first, only some, or all - 1947 Restrikes were happening up through 1972 (as well as again later, but not pertinent to this event) I have a feeling they were not as scarce as one might think.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
I think we've pretty much proven that those original 40 don't exist.
I've had a chance to go over most of the posts again. I don't have time to post at the moment but here are some things to consider:
After all these years, I believe much of what TTTT has posted happened. Mr. B was involved, where the coins were made, and TTTT connection. However, there is a lot of unverifiable info, conjecture, and misinformation in these threads. For example, a Denver Mint ledger page was briefly posted as a joke and TTTT used this to confirm that HR dies left the Mint. It is a shame this joke caused more misinformation to the story.
This is what I believe so far based on the coins themselves: TTTT knows a lot of what went on. NO GENUINE HR DIES WERE USED TO PRODUCE THE FAKES. Every fake "Omega" $20 was produced by the same dies. I've examined other counterfeit HR's (not "Omega's") but they are not very deceptive to a professional authenticator. So, I believe transfer dies were delivered to Mr. B. IMO, NO first batch w/o the "Omega" exists. They would have turned up. The genuine HR coins were struck on a "huge" medal press. Mr. B's press was a "baby."
I believe What is left to do is to analyse a few genuine coins, a few Omega's, and a few 50 Pesos. Gold and silver mined from different sources have different trace elements. This will probably determine if 50 Pesos were used for planchets or not.
I believe an x-ray diffraction test on an electron microscope will reveal the alloy of the gold and could prove if the Omega $20's match the Mexican 50 pesos alloy. You don't have to destroy the coin to tell.
"NO first batch w/o the "Omega" exists. They would have turned up."
How would these be differentiated from genuine coins? I think that was one of the points of TTTTs original thread.
@Insider2 Based on what you have seen as an authenticator, is the number of 20,000 fake Omegas credible?
Thanks in advance.
As I said way back when, they would have to have been struck in an original three-piece collar as well. A fake three-piece collar would exhibit evidence that would expose the pieces as modern strikes, or counterfeits if you will.
Trust me, it would not be hard.
Look. Back then in the early 70's, I was a "rookie" (with a microscope). Even then, I had seen enough coins to be able to tell when a coin looked "different." That is the basis for C/F detection 101. STUDY genuine coins under magnification. Then, if you see something different, you will not know one way or another if it is genuine or not BUT you will know it is unlike anything you've seen before! Now, you are ready to determine if it is genuine or not.
Additionally, back then the Mint kept much of the minting process secret. The die material, the annealing temperatures, the press tonnage, etc. That's why the STRUCK counterfeits of the day looked so bad that the "expert" authenticators' of the time thought they were casts!
I'm sorry I cannot reveal the state of coin authentication/authenticators' in the late 60's early 70's from my perspective. Too self serving.
I'll just say that by 1973 things took a giant leap forward and the foundation of "modern" coin authentication was laid at the ANA's Certification Service in DC.
NO! But I was not there when they were struck.
Perhaps the crooks melted a bunch after they were exposed. Additionally, when a new fake is discovered and how to ID it, often the fake dies are corrected and more fakes made. This was not the case with any "Omega!" I have seen two with the "signature" scratched off. All the other diagnostics were present.
4T's describes the dies as in bad shape (rusty) and on the verge of collapse. He says, in fact, that they did collapse after those magical 40 coins. Any struck coins from those dies - as confirmed by Daniel Carr on this thread - would show fatigue evidence from the impending collapse. The removal of the rust on the dies would also be transparent to anyone with a modicum of experience. Even if they did strike 40 coins from those collapsing dies, they would have been destroyed as failed test strikes not sold into the marketplace.
Jml, very, very good. May I add that they may have been given to very ,very close friends who aided or assisted MrB in his enterprise.
Yes, that makes sense.
.....and yet apparently none of those '40' or so have
shown up for authentication or grading. (with the
impending die fatigue/collapse)
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Hmmm, not sure if all would have been submitted for grading and that if so, that some may have gotten through in any case. I see all kinds of "mechanical" errors....LOL
Well, just Love coins, period.
@FredWeinberg…
Is there a summary handy on how many were minted at the US Mint vs.
* Of the 40 what is the probability that any were turned in for grading, i.e. or likely treated as poor quality bullion and stored away for investment
But I didn't say 'all', I said 'apparently none'
have been submitted.
Logic says that if there were up to 40 pieces extant,
at least a few or more of them would have been submitted,
but not a single HR has been reported with any potential or
possible or actual 'die fatigue' or impending die collapse.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Insider has repeatedly posted that he would like me to continue posting as he feels I have more info. He has undoubtedly spent a lot of time researching the Omega and he is correct, there is a lot I have not revealed for personal reasons. That doe not mean that I am messing with this forum or trying to deny things. It took me 50 years to get here just to say "I happen to know alittle something about the Omega coin". I have tried to help guide those whos conclusions or thought process was going in the right direction. If they came up with a conclusion that was correct, I may not say right on but possibly that it was a very, very good conclusion. I have also thrown out "food for thought" .
I also have tried to get members to say things like in my opinion or to the highest degree of probability instead of a pure factual statement which is not fact. I have far more respect when an expert says..in my opinion to the highest degree of probability, there we no originals because they should have entered the system by this point and would have been detected by expert authenticators. This statement is an opinion and leaves room for error as the highest degree of probability still leaves room for the opposite conclusion to be true.
Taking the two statements above, the last major flaw I have observe is that too many people are drawing conclusions based on todays standards and not those of the 60's and early 70's. Big, big mistake.
Remember that I posted CLEARLY that my fathers role was to keep Joe Bonanno out of jail by not getting arrested. He was an advisor in this escapade. Knowing that, use common sense and logic and things will flow much better. Also remember that these were amateurs, not coin makers or counterfeiters in the very beginning. If they did something that does make sence, that is because you are educated and know what the right thing to do was. They had too learn with time, advice and experience.
This story has been presented to you in chronological stages, start to finish. Each stage was presented to an attorney for his professional advice. The advice given may have made things harder or more risky, but it was better than going to jail. Stage 1...someone wants to sell me genuine US Mint die. How do I even look at them without going to jail? I am under 24 hour surveillance by the FBI. You know the story. Stage 2....If I buy these, am I in possession of stolen property and will I go to jail? You know the story Stage 3...the expert not only said they are real, but that they can be still productive. If I use them will I go to jail? You know the story. Lets skip some stages. We are ready to punch out coins. The behavior of the engraver has been unbearable, if this fails or their is an accident, I can't go thru that again nor can I afford it.
Solution, use the original die for test run, test production. HIGH RISK....making a coin that is now nearly identical and could be prosecuted for federal crime of counterfeiting. Possession of those coins is as bad as it comes in this entire episode. Final stage....Mr.Keriaken, owner of La Caverna in Nogales, Mexico calls his American lawyer in Tucson with some important information. Did you guys get that part. His American lawyer advises Mr. B to liquidate anything that is high risk and may link him to this caper. Maybe a few small things don't have to destroyed, but get rid of them.
Now look at some of the last few posts. The originals were never made...really? They never were discovered and they should have...really? They would have been poor quality...really?
Even though the story TTTT is plausible and I believe JB was the Omega man he has made up the part about the originals...Really? They should have gone thru the coin collecting system and been discovered.....really? Has anyone ever heard of coins being used in Jewelry? Was Newton Pfeiffer a celebrity jeweler to the mob? Wow!
If I had to take a guess, probably 90+% of the HR issue has been examined closely by professional dealers and authenticators since 1972! I and others have possibly recorded the emission sequence and die/edge combinations of these coins. It is highly unlikely that anyone outside of a major world power could produce a fake that would defy detection even today. Mr. B COULD NOT MAKE ONE BACK THEN that would pass!
I'll remind readers that unlike the fakes that are passing as genuine today, NOT ONE "Omega" or any other C/F 1907 HR coin was ever certified as genuine by the Certification Service.
I stand corrected - they all went into jewelry.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@totellthetruth posted: "Now look at some of the last few posts. The originals were never made...really? [If they were made, they have NEVER TURNED UP - not one in fifty years!] They never were discovered and they should have...really? [Yes, really, anything would have been better than the one's that hit the market and in fifty years - NADA as they say in AZ] They would have been poor quality...really? [They could have been the best counterfeits ever made, absolutely undetectable EXCEPT coins have three sides. The die polish on all genuine US mint collars for these coins is a matter of record. Any unknown collar would immediately raise suspicion.]
Even though the story TTTT is plausible and I believe JB was the Omega man he has made up the part about the originals...Really? [This was NEVER SAID. What was written was there is NO EVIDENCE of any dies leaving the Mint and someone posted a joke using a Denver ledger to "pull your chain."] They should have gone thru the coin collecting system and been discovered.....really? Has anyone ever heard of coins being used in Jewelry? Was Newton Pfeiffer a celebrity jeweler to the mob? Wow! [Even HR jewelry has come under scrutiny. I've probably handled at least a dozen beat up, repaired, and polished ex-jewelry pieces over the years that were all genuine known dies!]
Finally, most everything that all of us post is to be considered AN OPINION and not "gospel." It is a waste of time to make that clear with each post. Strange things happen in life. is is possible that genuine dies were stolen? Yes. Is it possible that badly rusted genuine dies were dug and the corrosion was tooled from their surface? Yes. Is it possible genuine $20 were used to make the planchets or even 50 Pesos? Yes. There are thousands of possibilities. SO FAR,the actual "Omega" coins themselves don't support any of them.
Let's see what they are made of. I'm going to work on it.
What is going on? I go away for a few hours and you gang up on @totellthetruth
Did we not just recently see a High Relief Saint in a money clip? Isn't that exactly the kind of jewelry a mafia man might carry? Why couldn't JB have given away 10 or 20 of those and they are still out there?
And if you have a crappy, obviously fake HR Saint, why would you submit it to a grading service?
I'm not sure why everyone is nitpicking on these silly little things when there are much bigger truths here to be investigated.
One of the most important "truths" about the information that TTTT has provided concerns the actual dies used to strike the coins. Were discarded genuine dies used or not? Of course souvenirs were given away. That is completely believable. It changes nothing. They either had the "signature" or did not. In any case, they needed to be struck in a counterfeit collar. So far, only "signed" coins have turned up.
TTTT has told us much of what he remembers and lots of it can be backed up. Now, we need to fill in the blanks. The composition of the fakes is a good next step. How many were produced? Where are the dies now?
Here is a thought, 10,000 Spanish Trail 50c were struck. Half the number of C/F HR's supposedly struck. They are all over the place. Where are the fake $20? I contend (if they existed in that number) most were destroyed. Proof? Try and buy one.
I thought the jeweler sold coins individually out of store? I'd like to ask, do you have any idea of what a high relief sold for out of jewelers store? I posted a photo taken out of the 1969 Red Book of what a high relief was valued at in unc for posterity, along with inflation calculator to adjust for present value to account for inflation. Just curious how many high reliefs minted, sold, and the amount of revenue generated from this project? I know you don't have all these answers; yet, just helps understand the motive, process, and end result a bit more.
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/
Clearly, we need a sarcasm emoji
If the test strikes were given out to crime family members, why would they or their heirs submit a known counterfeit to a TPG and risk arrest or getting “disappeared” ? These guys are generally pretty professional and seems unlikely they would assume the obvious risk for a small and unlikely reward
Exactly... Of course I'm the one that suggested "test strikes". The original story says these are perfect and have never yet been detected.
The important thing to remember is that one should never let facts get in the way of faith.
Gag, Roll eyes and throw up.
No one is going to submit a known fake! The guys are dead. If these "gifts" even exist they are in the hands of folks who may not know they are fakes.
Anyway, this is more "fluff" in my opinion. We are writing about things that may not even exist and that's how threads go into the weeds! Did Mr. B strike any Proofs? LOL.
The LACK OF A GENUINE COLLAR crushes any theory that the coins were perfect and undetectable.
On the edge, yes, the $20 high-relief $20 would be harder to replicate than the $3. A reeded edge is easier to produce than a raised letter edge.
But for the obverse and reverse dies, the high-relief can actually make it EASIER. Think of it this way:
When replicating an existing coin/hub/die there is certain amount of accuracy in the replication. But the accuracy is never 100.0% Suppose the transfer/molding process is done using a reduction (Janvier) lathe. And suppose the lathe has an accuracy in the relief height of 0.001" (one one-thousandth of an inch). If the total relief is high, for example 0.040", then the error would be plus or minus 2.5% of the relief. But for a low relief coin, for example 0.010" total relief height, the error would be plus or minus 10% of the relief (which would make it more apparent visually).
This is one of the most interesting and entertaining articles I've ever read. Don't stop now.
Oh my god! Now we have a comrade omegaruski!
Actually, Breen acquired the dies and used them to strike proofs. It was brilliant, really. Who better to counterfeit coins than the person who could actually authenticate his own handiwork.
Yes, I can see that. I was thinking of the striking.
I just did a little fact checking on the possibility of using a Mexico 50 Pesos gold piece (without any melting) to make a "blank" planchet for a US gold Double Eagle.
First, the density of an alloy of 10% copper and 90% gold (by weight):
Gold density (grams per cubic centimeter): 19.3
Copper density (grams per cubic centimeter): 8.96
.900 gold / .100 copper alloy (grams per cubic centimeter): (.900 * 19.3) + (.100 * 8.96) = 18.266
Here are the numbers from the Krause World Coin Catalog:
Mexico 50 Pesos:
.900 fine gold, 41.667 grams total weight, 37mm diameter (1.85 centimeter radius).
At that weight, the nominal thickness would be:
41.667 / (3.1416 * 1.85 * 1.85 * 18.266) = 0.212cm = 2.12mm = 0.0835 inches.
US $20 Double Eagle:
.900 fine gold, 33.436 grams total weight, 39mm diameter (1.70 centimeter radius).
At that weight, the nominal thickness would be:
33.436 / (3.1416 * 1.70 * 1.70 * 18.266) = 0.202cm = 2.02mm = 0.0800 inches.
If a 34mm circle was punched out of the middle of a 37mm Mexico gold 50 pesos piece, the resulting nominal weight of the disc would be 41.667 * (34 * 34) / (37 * 37) = 35.184 grams. This is heavier than a US Double Eagle at 33.436 grams. So the 50 peso could actually be first rolled out to about 95% of its original nominal thickness. That would result in a reduction of the relief height on both sides by about 0.002". That alone would only obliterate perhaps 5% to 10% of the original detail. Annealing and striking would obliterate a lot more. But it would require some physical testing to see how close to a perfect over-strike would be possible without any of the original detail showing.
Wouldn't it be easier just to melt the coins and start from scratch?
That's what we need. A Russian connection.
How do we know they needed to be struck in a counterfeit collar? Are the collars for the omegas mapped and that's how you know?
I have shot myself in the foot. I have posted that I would like to buy an Omega coin. It does not need to be authenticated as I already know it is fake. Unfortunately the popularity of this coin is going back up and so is the price. I don't blame the sellers as it is in demand and I may be part of the rise in popularity. So would someone just burn a damn coin or whatever you do to them and then make me eat crow so the price will go back down and I can get one.
Yes, if you had an efficient way to melt two or more 50 peso coins into an ingot (easy), and a way to roll out that ingot to proper thickness (a little more difficult and requires rolling mill equipment).
Honestly, it's not that simple unless someone (not me) already has a trace metal profile of Mexican 50 pesos...AND...that profile stayed the same for multiple years. If Mexico used different suppliers over the years, for example, there might be a variable trace metal profile.
So....it might be necessary to do a statistical analysis on multiple Mexico 50 pesos to have something to compare to. Both U.S. coins and Mexican 50 pesos are nominally 90% gold and 10% copper.
If you go way back, I believe I posted there was a roller and a mill man. Also an anneiler, but I never heard of melting. Maybe melted elsewhere . One man was a press operator, another a miller the last an engraver. They all spoke Russian.
Yes. If they could roll out the 50 pesos and anneal them, I don't think it would be much harder to melt them and roll them out. That would explain why there is no understrike.
True. But lacking a rolling mill there would still be a way to do it.
First, stamp the 50 Pesos coins with large diameter blank (flat) dies using the coin press, with it adjusted so that the resulting strike causes a 5% reduction in the nominal thickness. Then you could punch a 34mm disc out of the middle. That way, you wouldn't need a rolling mill at all.
I have a roll of Omegas that was given to my by my godfather. I can't tell you who he is or I would have to kill you. Here are a couple of them.
Well, you've got extras. You could sell one to Dr. D.
Lol, I really only had those three. They all presented themselves to me at the same time, so I snapped them up. I only have one left, and it would take a lot to buy it.
Poor Dr. D.
Maybe we should go metal detecting in the old auto salvage yard and see what's buried there.
As I said in my comments in one of the old deleted threads about punching $20 diameter "planchets" out of 50 Pesos coins, you must remember that the weight of the 50 Pesos is not evenly distributed across the coin because of the raised designs towards the centers of each side. Flattening them first would make it easier to do the math.
That said, I still believe that some of the 50 Pesos designs would survive any flattening and overstriking and be visible on the surface of the resultant coins.
My opinion/my view/my observations only,
is that the Omega $20 HR's have nothing to
do with Mexico 50 Peso Gold pieces either
being melted down, cut down, rolled down, etc.
I could be wrong, I'm glad to change my
view with the right info, but I just don't
see it.
(they look more similar in color to Austrian
100 Corona's, which were illegal in the US
till 1974, but were easily available, 'under
the counter', in coin shops and shows across
the country, in very large quantities if wanted.
I am NOT saying they are they source of the Omega gold pieces.)
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022