Options
"Omega" counterfeit MCMVII - Summary Wanted
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Can someone post a summary of facts and alleged events from the deleted "omega" thread? Some might want to keep a copy for future reference, but without the invective and nastiness.
0
Comments
That would be nice. I was looking forward to some analysis reports and future findings from the FOI requests. Lets see if this thread will remain civil. Too bad they didn't just lock that thread instead.
(I suspect the last TTTT post was just too nasty to ignore by the forum owners.)
That was the longest thread I've ever read in 18 years of message board participation. Sad that it stopped being about the coin and became personal attacks. Hopefully some further information will be forthcoming, because now I want to know.
I have a compilation of all [Insider2 or 4T's] posts up until the last day. I'll post the link later.
I would prefer to start from scratch with what is actually KNOWN from reputable sources. Insider2 has information, but has not directly shared it. I don't know if it is the same as "4T's" info or not, but maybe he would be willing to actually step forward and give us actual facts.
Starting with KNOWN facts, we could actually try to crowd source the research to try to fill in the gaps.
The very nature of the 4T thread was NOT conducive to learning anything. If you believed the tale, there is nothing left to learn. If you didn't, there is no point in trying to confirm it.
The Omega thread was deleted??? Oh no... darn... and I must have missed the last posts...Well, I kept a log of TTTT's posts, so I have that information anyway.
Cheers, RickO
Yep........and my follow up thread about being fed up with the Omega thread is also gone.
I posted it yesterday evening....didn't see any of the replies.
I wonder if it was just "collateral damage".
Pete
They deleted all the Omega threads. There were at least 4 of them and they are all, thankfully, gone.
I don't think it was specifically about that. They deleted ALL Omega related threads.
Here's a link to ALL the 4T posts except the last 2 days when there was nothing but insults. Again, I caution skepticism about ALL details based on one of two issues that attach. I won't specify the two issues to avoid starting another cascade of nonsense.
chemgod.com/ebay3/I%20actually%20do%20have%20some%20information%20on%20the%20Omega%20Man.pdf
Thanks. Made a copy for future reference.
Suggest that interested persons make any copies they want, but hold comments. Would not want to see a strictly informational thread removed.
The thread was poofed because StrikeoutXXX posted an image of TTTT. TTTT wanted the thread poofed, so he raised the bar on the threats.
I think the members of this forum who started out calling TTTT as a liar, fabricator and other things should be ashamed.
He stumbled onto the forum and had unique first-hand knowledge that he released with commentary and insights that stretched believably with many here. Having met him and talked about his experiences, I think it is hard to believe that he remained composed in his posts for so long. Imagine posting your recollections from 40 years ago and have them thrown back at you as lies! You would feel maligned and insulted. "You weren't there, so how can you call me a liar" he might say.
So, he told me he went on a double date with The Donald and Marla back in the 1990's. People here called him a liar. I believe him. On another message board he posted new information about the zodiac killer. They didn't believe him there either. They called him a crank. He showed me his research on the zodiac letters and all I could say was WOW! This guy is super smart and no wonder he got offered a Gov-job even though he has a bum knee.
Anyway, you should believe as much as 80% of what he said. The rest is not correct because he is not a numismatist. We have our own specific knowledge and shouldn't dump on people from outside who venture into our world who may not have the lingo correct. (Gaudens coins, 1904, etc.)
Yea, I should have just linked to his public YouTube Zodiac Channel instead of doing a screen grab - I was trying to prove that he was a real person - some were suggesting it was not even his real name, that he was making even that up, that he was posting under 2 different accounts, etc. I could have removed the picture if it bothered him, simple Google searches would get you his info anyhow. I got caught up trying to defend him in PMs as much as I got caught up trying to find facts in the story.
TTTT seemed as forthcoming as his recollections were allowing him as Rick said for being a non-numismatist, he was doing quite well. TTTT challenged us to find proof in his recollections and to verify as much as we could, and we were slowly finding bits of information to solidify his story, tie pieces together, and possibly solve a long-standing numismatic mystery.
Sad the way things turned out for sure - we get a lot of mysteries around here, things dismissed easily because it doesn't fit in a black/white world of coins (matte proofs being found, special presentation pieces, suspicious error coins, long missed DDOs surfacing, etc) that are scoffed at - usually until someone gets some proof or it's authenticated correctly. We didn't have enough time to get to that point in this story as it turned ugly.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
I typed out a longer reply, but thought better of it.
Perhaps an open forum was a poor place to go public with this. Even simple threads often go off the rails. This one was bound to, especially when some pretty basic questions went unanswered.
@EagleEye ...Thank you for your post. I noted your posts in the original thread, and, for me, your credulity supported credence to TTTT's information. Thank you for your inputs. Cheers, RickO
in my experience, nobody lies 20% of the time - it's either almost all or almost nothing
also, it's human nature to want to believe a good story
NO ONE has ever questioned @EagleEye Rick Snow's credibility. I certainly haven't.
There are other things going on here. We should probably avoid talking about any of those things if anyone wants this thread to survive.
I think he meant that 20% of it was incorrect, not dishonest.
While I did not read the last few posts that lead to the poofing of the thread, I read almost all the posts. Of those posts, I do not recall anyone calling TTTT "a liar, fabricator and other things." I do recall people making posts questioning some of his assertions but that is a far cry from "liar, fabricator and other things."
As far as posting recollections from 40 years ago, I definitely agree that some can be hazy and maybe even i correct. But when posters pointed out that some specific points were simply unbelievable, such as 1) the President Wilson autographed picture, 2) the advice that placing an Omega on the coin made it no longer a counterfeit, 3) the assertion that millions in profit were made from the counterfeits, TTTT never once agreed that his recollection might have been off or perhaps exaggerated. Instead, he seemed to double down on every point. In addition to these sorts of unbelievable assertions, the more general details he presented also seemed to change, such as the time span over which the counterfeits were produced or his knowledge of the presses.
I'd really like to believe TTTT's story, simply because it is so cool. But I have significant concerns. So maybe someone--
@StrikeOutXXX perhaps--will actually be able to verify some aspects of TTTT's story that were not known before his posts and thereby make his story more credible. In that case, I would be very happy to believe because I really want to!
The thread went off the rails when TTTT started calling a forum member the Nit for asking logical questions. His arrogance was off the charts. His Zodiac Killer channel on Youtube reminded me of Public Access Television from the 80's.
Latin American Collection
Haha, that was awful.
"Nit" is nothing. In episode 3, he said a guy who claimed that he had pareidolia was named "Milf," which was hilarious. Yeah, I watched it. I'm never getting those minutes of my life back.
We all got taken for a fun little ride with his Omega story.
I still liked the "end of the problem" reasoning for the Omega symbol!
In any event, it was entertaining while it lasted.
I still don't know what the truth is. I may never know. I'm still not even sure who was actually posting under 4T's.
Insider2 told me he was posting as 4T's. There are several reasons this seems possible. Insider2 also posted public comments hinting at it. But there are also posts from 4T that it is hard to believe came from a second party, even a schooled second party.
I believe Rick Snow. When I asked Insider2 about this, he said he went out to visit Rick's shop. But that seems hard to imagine for a couple reasons.
1) Insider is a numismatic insider, as is Rick Snow. Haven't they met before?
2) Rick's visitor had Zodiac info and a letter to Trump. Why would Insider go to the trouble of making such fake documents?
Is it possible that Rick's visitor and the 4T's poster are not the same person? Maybe. The early posts from 4T's read like a straight forward narrative. Then it turned in to chaotic, taunting posts. Was the 4T's poster relaying a story told by D'Antonio and then trying to keep the thread alive? Does that explain why the details had changed, simple mistakes by the second party? [The age issue is a big one.]
I really can't decide. But Insider2 is certainly lying. Either he was pretending to be 4T's OR he lied to me about pretending to be 4T's. It is hard to see how either one of those lies serves Insider2's desire to poke at the Omega Coin mystery. And Insider2 keeps taunting us with things he knows about the Omegas but refuses (so far) to share.
If 4T's is D'Antonio, it becomes really hard to reconcile some of the narrative flaws. Read my compilation and follow the ages: 4T's recalls being 16 or 17. He even tells how the original owner of the dies was uncomfortable showing them to a 17 year old. That would be 1971 or 1972. Later, after verifying with his brother, he's SURE it started in 1964/65 and ended in 1968. Now, I don't always remember exactly what the 25 year old me and the 30 year old me were doing. But I never confuse the 9 year old me with the 17 year old me.
The age HAD to move, however, because the 16/17 year old doesn't jibe with known facts. They could not have been starting the operation in 1971/72 because the fakes had already started to hit the market in 1971. On the other hand, you can't reconcile D'Antonio being tasked with finding a 50 ton press with the 9 year-old of 1964/65. And then you do have the problem that Bonanno was in hiding (or kidnapped) in 1965 and 1966, so he definitely was NOT in Tucson as that is the first place the Feds and the Mafia would have looked for him. So, is the truth somewhere in between? I don't know. 4T's arrogance didn't allow for any attempt to rectify the errors because he was incapable of admitting to errors, he would keep doubling down on the mistake - like the Woodrow Wilson issue.
I really do need a visit from the FBI so I can ask them what the hell happened here!
Yup. Some interesting material. Mostly dime-store drama. Much of what was offered was clearly deceptive and manipulative. In the end, quite little meaningful information.
I do believe that we will be hearing more of this issue....
Cheers, RickO
Maybe so. If it is D'Antonio - and you can ignore his Zodiac history - it does put a name to the fraud. It would also be at least somewhat interesting that it was a domestic Mafia source and not the Lebanese source assumed.
That's where the thread became maddening. Insider2 kept telling us to focus on the coins and not 4T's credibility. But you can't really separate the two. If 4T's credibility is excellent, you have most of your answers. If 4T's credibility is awful, you are wasting your time pursuing leads he gives you.
If I believe 4T - and I'm still not sure - I don't need to know anything else. The only remaining mysteries have little to do with the physical coins themselves. The only remaining questions are names: Who was the sculptor? Who was the distributor? Who stole the die from the mint? (Who is Insider2?
I'm currently leaning toward Fazzari because he cursed me in Italian. LOL.) The coin specifications and manufacture and basic source are now firmly established. Do I care about the names of the other players?
20% of the tale is believable, 40% was information plugged in by actual board members, the remaining 40% was embellished. One way or another it was an 'epic' thread created for our amusement. I for one enjoyed the tale of suspense, fiction, non-fiction, truths and assorted odds and ends.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Does anybody have a raw genuine High Relief and the capabilities of taking some good photographs of certain parts of the edge lettering?
Doesn't anyone have contacts at PCGS, ANACS or NGC who might have some of this information?
Rick Montgomery at NGC was kind enough to send me certain pictures of an Omega counterfeit edge, and is on the lookout for a genuine coin that can be photographed, but I thought I might have luck trying here as well.
@CaptHenway said: "Does anybody have a raw genuine High Relief and the capabilities of taking some good photographs of certain parts of the edge lettering?"
Yes, What part of which collar would you like to see? Several were used.
@jmlanzaf
ROTFL. Don't believe all you think you know. Siehst du, wie leicht du törichter Mann bist? Ich denke jetzt bin ich ein Deutscher!
Yes, but there are no Germans in this particular story. I increasingly could care less who you are. 4T's not 4T's. All we know for sure is that you are at least as arrogant as 4T's and that YOU definitely lied - either to me or the entire board. So, your credibility is no longer in question, it has been established.
For some reason Insider2 wants me to pass a test to be allowed to keep posting on HIS boards.
Insider2: Who was your home room teacher when you were nine?
Me: My 4th grade homeroom teacher was Mrs. Doebrich. She was a blond woman with large breasts. Funny the things you remember. She had a kind of New England accent that made her sound very sophisticated. She had gold, wire-rim glasses that were hanging from her neck all the time. I rarely remember her actually wearing them, but I suppose she must have to read.
Insider2: Would you know the difference between a hub and a master die?
Me: The hub is the "positive" image of the coin which is then used to create the master die which is, if you will, the negative image.
Well, if nothing else, I bumped this thread up to the top again.
Congratulations! However, Just because @totellthetruth could not remember exactly what was in a photo he saw on a wall or what a master hub was - does not invalidate the story he
posted. 
I didn't say it did - necessarily. What I said was that when there were discrepancies, rather than help us sort them out, he reaffirmed the statement and then taunted anyone who questioned it. 4T's started taunting me over the Wilson photo. Go back and read the posts. You can't, sadly, see my responses, but I even suggested to him as another poster had mentioned that maybe it was a different president or the photo wasn't his. Easy out. Instead, 4T's insisted it was Wilson, insisted he knew what Bonanno had done for Wilson (without telling us) and started calling me "nitwit".
Now, the Wilson photo has zero bearing on the rest of his story, but he pulled the same nonsense with the years. When I pointed out that the the operation could not have started in 1964/1965 because Bonanno was in hiding (or kidnapped) from October 1964 till late 1966, instead of simply suggesting that maybe it was 1967 or 1968, he insisted that I was an idiot because of course his lawyer knew where he was. His lawyer knowing where he was is quite different than Bonanno being in Tucson (where police and Mafia would be looking for him) and setting up the operation as indicated.
By itself, none of the little discrepancies could be said to matter. Taken together, they start to cast doubt on the story.
Ignore all the noise and focus on the dates:
4T's says he's 16 or 17 when it starts. That is 1971 or 1972. That can't be right - the counterfeits were in circulation by then.
4T's says it started in 64/65. That can't be true because Bonanno wasn't around in 64/65 and 4T's would have been 9 years old and not tasked with finding a 50 ton press.
Now, that alone gives me pause. But let's say it is faulty memory. Although, again, there is a big difference between me at 17 and me at 9. Let's push the start date to 67, 4T's is now 12. Would a 12 year old have been tasked with a 50 ton press? 68? 13 year-old with a 50 ton press? Maybe??? By 1969, you may be too late to get the things made in time for them to be showing up in 1971.
Again, it gives me pause. It doesn't PROVE anything. But 4T's arrogance and attitude prevented rectifying these story discrepancies. Wilson, who cares - other than 4T's. But the time line for coin production? That is a KEY KEY KEY story detail that does lend (or debit) credibility from the story.
In my ever humble opinion.
Well. at the least he likes the attention.
That he does. That he does.
You know, I want to like you, I really do. I know a lot of people around her don't like you. Now, I'm sure a lot of them don't like me. But I always found you to be amusing as well as informative. But, somehow it all went badly, didn't it. Oh well, no point in mourning the loss of Internet strangers.
Just do me a favor. Put the truth, YOUR truth, in an envelope and have your executor post it here posthumously. [No hurry, live as long as you like.]
Please, no one cares who I like or don't like. I left kindergarten school in ah....I cannot remember the date or what I posted in the deleted thread about the photos on the wall.
BTW, I have no connection to our host or this forum except as a member who is allowed to post. I control nothing. Your comment: "For some reason Insider2 wants me to pass a test to be allowed to keep posting on HIS boards" is silly. I gave you a LOL.
IMO, our private communications (PM's) have no place in any discussion on this forum (that should be a warning to others who answer any PM's you initiate). No one cares about us. All our postings have done is derail another thread about the "Omega" coins. So sad. TTTT is gone.
Now, how about sticking to coins?
Posters should remember why the original threads were deleted and not repeat the circumstances.
Agree...........tread LIGHTLY
Pete
Have no fear, I'm tired of being turned Insider out.
Returning to the coins:
Question #3 answered (Mr.Omega please write) in the deleted thread. Apparently, with no luck.
The coins were only written about a few times by the authenticator, internet web sites, or mentioned now and then in counterfeit seminars. So, no intense follow up was ever done. Most information appears to be mostly second-party "filler" sticking to the facts that the coins were made and how to detect them. The only "new" information (?) to arouse interest was shared with us by @totellthetruth.
He has posted what should be some easily confirmed facts (previously unknown by any numismatist) as he remembered them before he was run off.
I requested any and all information on investigating Counterfeit 1907 $20 Gold or "Omega or "Omega Man" investigations in the late 60's or early 70's. I also specifically asked for any records pertaining to tracking a coin press from Argentina via truck/train to Tuscon Arizona to the Pappadeas Junk Yard on Stone Avenue.
That was all the information I had at the time of the request. I am waiting to see if anything comes back.
When you do the request online, you pick a drop-down of agencies, which I picked Secret Service.
A subsequent one may be needed if it was an FBI investigation (with help from the Mexican Federales) in Nogales Senora, possibly belonging to Kiriakis looking for a marine diesel engine. TTTT related he thought that the feds visited the junkyard closer to 1973 was it?
I could potentially request any information on surveillance photos/information of an Italian National visiting/staying with Bonanno likely between the years of 1968 to 1970.
I can also perhaps ask for any records of activities at Metro Auto Plastic Co., 1926 N. Stone Ave. on/about the date it was bombed (the location of the coining operation). "An FBI agent reported that a Metro owner socialized in nightclubs with gangsters and "has been repairing the automobiles for most all of the hoodlums in Tucson for the past several years." That agent was likely Hale. Joe Sebastian owned the body shop and it was bombed September 13, 1968.
Remember, TTTT said the coining operation was in full swing when the bombings were taking place, and that specific building was hit. That is roughly 5 years of coin production.
I can't find if ex FBI agent David Olin Hale is still alive to perhaps reach out for details.
I've been working on identifying the Italian engraver with no luck.
No luck (haven't done much here) trying to trace Mint Employees and Genealogy/family history of possibly a son about the same age as the Idea man.
I'm getting ready for vacation for a week, so slacking on the Omega front lately.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
You ask much.
y of possibly a son about the same age as the Idea man.
Did you ask for FBI surveillance data on Bonanno himself? He was definitely under surveillance in '68.
I did not, only what info I had early in the poofed thread as stated above. I'm waiting til I get the 1st back to see if it provides anything, or I get useful info from PMs first. Plus, If the first search takes many hours and many pieces of paper need to pay that one first.
You can submit online or through an app. Link to FOI is on right side here. https://www.secretservice.gov/press/foia/request/
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
One other thing I've been curious about is if there were indeed somewhere around 20,000 Omega's made - I don't think I ever got a solid answer as to that, but TTTT threw the number out a few times, but some were scrapped when the operation was suddenly shut down - however, he said as coins were made, new planchets (rolled Mexico Peso's) were brought in, and counterfeits taken out into the logistical channels to Sky Harbor/Phoenix Airport was it?
From all accounts - I think insider or CaptHenway made the comment somewhere that they only believe a few hundred made it into collectors hands - where the heck are all of them?
Melted? In some large holding somewhere in the US? Perhaps originally sold/shipped overseas? (Didn't I read a thread a few months back about a large amount of US gold being physically returned to the US soon?) If the operation met resistance with ANACS around 1971, but the operation lasted a few more years - maybe they gave up on collectors and found an investment house or overseas trust of some sort to take them.
Where would bags upon bags of US Gold coins be sitting right now (if not melted in the past) that likely isn't looked at from a numismatist point of view?
PS - I have the PDF of all of TTTTs comments - didn't someone say they save the whole original thread as a PDF too - anyone care to PM me with that, some of my own posts with info I lost and am working from memory here (plus others had good posts not preserved from jmlanzaf's PDF above).
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
My guess is most got melted. The rest are either in dealer C/F collections or possible a few in old collections But any though of as genuine in these old collections would have hit the market as possibly 60% of the people around in the 1970's are dead.
BTW, one of mine (photo in Capitol holder in deleted thread) was headed to the refiner when the dealer friend gave it to me!
I don't think any stock can be put in that number. I've not seen that estimate anywhere else. I think 4T's picked it up from the original thread.
I submitted an FBI FOIA request - I think. I had trouble with the birthdate. Would you believe that the drop down menu for the subject's birthday doesn't go back before 1918?
RE: "...as coins were made, new planchets (rolled Mexico Peso's) were brought in,..."
Metal does not work this way. Rolling out a coin flattens, elongates and blurs the design, but it also work hardens it. A rolled out coin could never be used as a blank or planchet in any type of press. The US Mint rolled out coins because it made them easier and faster to melt. See the articles of Pittman Silver Dollars)
PS; A FOIA request to FBI or USSS can take a year or longer to process.