@kbbpll said:
Can somebody summarize what this (mess) was all about? Some mobster made counterfeits from dies found in a hole out the back door of the mint or something? Supposedly the actual Omega Man Counterfeiter? I need Cliff Notes.
Cliff notes - TTTT came to share a wonderful story he witnessed first hand for the most part relating to the Omega's. We didn't have an active Forum Moderator then, too many people got crazy with him, and robbed the rest of us who wanted to know the rest of the story of its conclusion.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is a Carl Sagan quote that speaks to the nature of critical or scientific thinking. Although these claims about the 1907 Omega High Reliefs seem extraordinary to us numismatists, they really aren't extraordinary. I believe that adequate evidence as has been presented by TTTT to make this story the currently accepted explanation (at least for myself) of how these counterfeits came to be.
Is it extraordinary that a high quality counterfeit would be produced from an original die? No. Is it extraordinary that a master engraver and other experts would be needed to be employed to produce and distribute a high quality counterfeit? No. Is it extraordinary that organized crime would be involved in such an enterprise that required considerable money, planning, secrecy and expertise? No. Is it extraordinary that a counterfeit of this quality would fool many experts the first time that this high quality had been seen? No.
So what's so extraordinary (meaning unlikely) about TTTT's story? Nothing. It's just a great story for us numismatists as it answers some interesting numismatic questions but the Zodiac story may have broader interest among the public. However, the Zodiac story has been done several times and Omega hasn't been told yet. If done right, it could be pretty successful.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
believe that adequate evidence as has been presented by TTTT to make this story the currently accepted explanation (at least for myself) of how these counterfeits came to be.
What about all the evidence that runs counter to it? Most specifically the 50 peso use which does not mesh with observations of the omega coins.
There are also numerous inconsistencies in the story which were discussed elsewhere.
It's not impossible. But I also would stop FAR short of saying that adequate evidence of anything has been presented.
Although I agree completely with jmlanzaf's last sentence in the post
directly above, I do not believe the story at this time, based on the
'story' only, and no other proof/evidence - I'm very willing to change
my mind, but would need a heck of a lot more to do so.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@FredWeinberg said:
Although I agree completely with jmlanzaf's last sentence in the post
directly above, I do not believe the story at this time, based on the
'story' only, and no other proof/evidence - I'm very willing to change
my mind, but would need a heck of a lot more to do so.
Agree. I'm trying really hard not to tweak anyone here.
But am I the only one who wonders why the Trump administration sent a 63 year old doctor to Federal Law Enforcement training for a temporary 1 year appointment during which he was involved in making a movie???
[Apologies to TTTT and anyone who is less cynical than I am.]
I'm not claiming that this is proven fact but I'll accept it as the currently most plausible story, until you can tell me a better one. Accepted fact would require more evidence.
Inconsistencies like claiming that 150 ton press was a 15 ton press or other claims that rely on old memories are to be expected. But the basic who, what, when, and how all seems to make sense with minor variations, and it's pretty much the way that such an item like the 1907 HR Omegas would have been expected or predicted to have been created.
I remember some discussion about the color of the Omegas vs. the 50 Pesos but I also remember that it was observed that color among 1907 HRs and other US gold coins can and does vary from coin to coin. The non-gold 10% can and does react differently over time to produce variations in color, so color was acceptable to those who proclaimed the Omegas genuine.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
My quick observations - first, we may call it Omega, but it looks more like a cursive capital Q to me in the various images. Like number 3 below. Possibly something else when upside-down.
It appears to be incuse - correct? This means it's raised on the die, implying that it was not added to the die itself, but engraved into an original, whether coin for transfer, or hub made from original die. Right? My knowledge of the process is weak, but if it was an original die as claimed, it seems like they would have had to create a hub, engrave the "symbol formerly known as Omega", then create die(s). Presuming of course that it is actually incuse, which it appears to me to be.
The contention that this was a criminal enterprise rings true enough to me. What lone wolf counterfeiter has $2 million to spend on bullion coins?
The contention I've read elsewhere that this was connected to the anti-war movement (due to the use of the purported Omega) seems silly to me. None of those hippies had any money. I can't fathom what purpose it would have served to promote their cause.
The contention that they produced 40 without the symbol and stopped because the die wore out doesn't ring true. Why stop at 40? How would they then create a new die with the symbol if the original die was so worn out? I can however see them making some test coins while waiting for more equipment to arrive or something.
The inclusion of the signature symbol to skirt around the actual laws sounds plausible. However, it doesn't seem like underworld guys like this really worry about that too much. The people at the top of the chain don't get caught.
The purchase of some tens of thousands of Mexican bullion coins raises the question of where and how so many were obtained without raising suspicion or being subsequently tracked down by Secret Service.
Where did the 1910, 1913, 1926 $10 and 1874, 1878 and 1882 $3 dies come from? That little archaeological dig in the mint backyard? Stashed away somewhere for upwards of 100 years?
Interesting stuff to speculate about and I'm sure all my points have already been discussed somewhere ad nauseam.
Some very good posts. KB, even though you don't post much, I was impressed with your observation that the Omega sign is engraved on the die.. If you go back and read, you will find that an expert was brought in to confirm that the die were genuine or authentic prior to purchase. This expert had to have worked at some time in the engraving department of a mint because his conclusion was they were genuine, but worn and would likely not last long before they would collapse. The word collapse is what I remember was used. It was estimated that they could strike out a small (30,40,50?) coins.
His opinion gave credence to the man selling the die. They were scheduled for destruction (chiseled) and then disposed as they were basically worn out. Here is what I know and you can use this information to further your thought process. The die were purchased and the hunt for a press began. It was quite some time (6mo or more) before the press arrived in Tucson. Within weeks of the purchase, three new men arrived in Tucson and were kept together as a group. They lived in Tucson and were part of JB's network, but really didn't appear to be doing much. One was a retired mint worker who was a press operator. Another was a machinist. The third was "Frenchie". He was a real prima donna who expected everyone to wait on him. he was the engraver.
I talked with my brother about this a lot as we were used to drive these people around as there were not enough cars at first. My brother would bring the other two men down to the maze of buildings on Stone Ave. and they went into a tin (galvanized) building which still stands. This is where all the equipment for producing the coins eventually ended up. They would only work for a few hours and my brother would bring them back to JB's. Their clothes were never soiled or hands dirty. We don't know what they did in that building but the press did not exist. In the meantime, JB was constantly trying to get the prima donna to go into his guesthouse and work. JB wanted him to work at the same time the other two men were gone which was about two hours a day. It is during this time period that I first saw a machine that would not fit in the guesthouse so was down in Bonanno's basement. This machine was the reducer/engraver. I was down in the basement many times and there was an area about 3 feet in diameter on the floor at one end of the machine that was covered in plaster dust. We always had to check our shoes when we left the basement and there was a bucket of water at the top of the stairs to dip your shoes in if they were white. This went on for somewhere along 6 or so months. I had never seen anyone push the limits of disrespect of JB like that of "Frenchie". He really upset Bonanno with his prissiness and demands.
Remember that Bonanno was allowed to live as long as he did not engage in any traditional mob activities. Frauds were excluded and encouraged as Bonanno would test out his ideas and then sell the business to the syndicate. He might still be involved to a degree, but once sold...what they choose to do was their business and JB was smart enough to not put his nose in their business. I do not remember seeing any other coin and I do not believe these other coins were manufactured by JB . I believe the poor quality is reflected in their production and JB stressed perfection.
When the double eagle frauds were finally revealed as frauds, the manufacturing had already been slowly winding down. Bonanno was not upset about the detection, but more curious how THEY did it as he was not aware how they did it. The only emotion I remember was absolute surprise. When the coins were exposed as fakes, these men just disappeared. The only sign of panic or worry I ever witnessed is when my father was informed that the Secret Service was on the trail of the press and had ended up in Nogales. Sonora. It was a terribly tense time that only ended when that press was mashed into a block of metal by a car crusher.
For some of you, please read carefully. I never said I became and FBI agent. I worked for the DOJ as a law enforcement officer and I showed my official id to eagle eyes. I left that job after I was approached by a Hollywood production company official who made me an offer I couldn't refuse. Trump did not send me there. I asked Trump to consider me as a candidate for the position of Surgeon General of the United States, but I would serve our country in anyway I could. I showed that letter to Eagle Eyes. After speaking with former Surgeon General Richard Carmona who now lives in Tucson, I lost interest. He told me about the downside of the job and the nightmare and expense of living in DC. He was not positive in any way. I suggested something different. I will not take a position that requires me to live in DC.
I came here as a guest to tell one of many stories that occurred during my childhood. I can only provide info as to what my memories remember. Stop making up things I did not say. My work in the Zodiac murders is huge. A film production company is submitting a short film in less than a month to film festivals. I will not come here and share these memories if you don't have the ability to post the truth. My name on this site is ToTellTheTruth. I live by that. I hate liars and throw them out of my life as soon a I hear a lie. I have a photographic memory which is a blessing and a curse. Many a person or even relative has been pinged from my life because they lie. It is clear to me that some of you make up facts and statements to degrade me or my stories. It is your way of creating conflict which results in combative episodes. I went away for over a year ONLY because I have bigger and more important things to do and time is my greatest enemy. It is clear that if you were to state facts and quote me correctly, your position to destroy this story falls apart. Please note, in over a year, all the angles that were going to be pursued and investigated to gut this story never panned out. Nothing. The production company was curious as to what the experts on this website came up with to debunk my story. As we say in Tucson...NADA! That's right experts, nothing in over a year to debunk me. You just sold the story. My Congrats.
@sellitstore said:
I'm not claiming that this is proven fact but I'll accept it as the currently most plausible story, until you can tell me a better one. Accepted fact would require more evidence.
Inconsistencies like claiming that 150 ton press was a 15 ton press or other claims that rely on old memories are to be expected. But the basic who, what, when, and how all seems to make sense with minor variations, and it's pretty much the way that such an item like the 1907 HR Omegas would have been expected or predicted to have been created.
I remember some discussion about the color of the Omegas vs. the 50 Pesos but I also remember that it was observed that color among 1907 HRs and other US gold coins can and does vary from coin to coin. The non-gold 10% can and does react differently over time to produce variations in color, so color was acceptable to those who proclaimed the Omegas genuine.
I think you might want to look more closely at the discussion in, I believe, this very thread.
@totellthetruth said:
Some very good posts. KB, even though you don't post much, I was impressed with your observation that the Omega sign n over a year, all the angles that were going to be pursued and investigated to gut this story never panned out. Nothing. The production company was curious as to what the experts on this website came up with to debunk my story. As we say in Tucson...NADA! That's right experts, nothing in over a year to debunk me. You just sold the story. My Congrats.
Could you remind me of the years that the press was in operation?
Is it confirmed that all the coin with the omega stamp were fakes? If so, what is the defining giveaway to the coins being counterfeit? If no one truly knows, could not they be real coins that someone placed the omega stamp on? Just curious.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
@northcoin said:
From the linked story as archived from the original OP's Omega thread postings:
"There are some excellent experts on this thread with top notch credentials. I have two very simple questions that only require a yes or no answer.
1 I want to buy a 1907 high relief double eagle for $250,000. I want it to be authenticated so I don't get ripped off. It has no omega symbol, no intertwined worm marks and no unusual die characteristics. It does have an off tone color like Omegas and I am nervous. Will you professionally authenticate it as genuine or not...yes or no?"
.....
"My father and Bonanno believed the coin experts of the day
were FAKES. You keep defending the experts despite the fact that over 19,000 coins were sold to
the public at a cost of 200-300 million. "
.....
" ..... nearly 20,000 fake coins were sold for hundreds of millions of dollars."
Out of curiosity I tracked down a 1971 edition of the Redbook to find out just what a 1907 High Relief Saint Gaudens was going for at that time. As I anticipated, even a proof was only valued at $2,500.00. Obviously no one was paying $250,000 a coin back in 1971, but conceivably after the asserted initial run of a few dozen (proofs?) with the asserted garbage dump sourced dies, if there were subsequently 19,000 of the Omega signed coins produced, and simply sold as "uncirculated," that could have added up to a tidy sum.
@totellthetruth - "observation that the Omega sign is engraved on the die" - actually I'm saying the opposite. If the symbol is incuse on the coins, it is raised on the die, not engraved into it. Implying that it was engraved into a hub, which when transferred to a die, becomes raised on the die. The plaster dust implies they were making a galvano? Can a reducing lathe be reversed to create a galvano out of a die?
One of the things that still doesn't have a sufficient explanation for me is that the 7 known fakes span a period of over 50 years. The how where why of putting that range of dates and denominations together upwards of 100 years later needs a reasonable story.
Dear Jesbroken. I am not an expert, but I know the answer. At the time of the Omegas were produced. The criteria to verify the coin as authentic was quite rudimentary. Usually a jewelers loop and the opinion and expertise of the authenticator. That was it. Interestingly the Zodiac killer letters were deemed authentic or fake in about the same way and the time period is about the same. What happened? Due to the lack of technical assistance, the opinion of the authenticator carried the weight to determine the authenticity. This presents a problem. Men can be corrupted and or influenced. I just read where real estate appraisers are under extreme duress to come up with a value of a home that is acceptable to NOT KILL the deal. If they don't, they are shunned by the real estate industry. Accordingly, many of the home appraisals are false, fake, not real.
Now comes a young, inexperienced hard working authenticator who is still learning the business. He is to inexperienced to authenticate the Omegas, but he is eager to learn and he dedicates himself to long hard hours to learn. During this time, he notices something unusual. The Omegas are flooding the market and they are selling like hotcakes. They have very low reserves and they just keep coming. They are high quality and the esteemed authenticators of the day are claiming they are real. He has a light bulb in his head and it is flashing and he is paying attention to it. He doesn't understand. but he knows something is not right. His name is Skip Fazzari. Now just like the young kids of today, he has more knowledge of technological tools coming into the world. He has knowledge of these new things called hi powered microscopes. His greatest accomplishment is he makes the decision to find one and start looking at these coins, hoping he may find something....anything. Think of all the hours he sacrificed after his long day at work scouring that coin. Then it happens. He finds the omega sign in the claw of the eagle. Is he cheered? Is he applauded? No, the esteemed authenticators tell him is full of bulla (similar to what they tell me). He was right.
Now with the advent of electron microscopes, they can map the graining of the metal which should match the graining of the die. Because the Omegas have a different grain pattern, it proves a different die was used which supports my story. Food for thought. I know that a few coins are out there that the grain will match
@kbbpll said: @totellthetruth - "observation that the Omega sign is engraved on the die" - actually I'm saying the opposite. If the symbol is incuse on the coins, it is raised on the die, not engraved into it. Implying that it was engraved into a hub, which when transferred to a die, becomes raised on the die. The plaster dust implies they were making a galvano? Can a reducing lathe be reversed to create a galvano out of a die?
One of the things that still doesn't have a sufficient explanation for me is that the 7 known fakes span a period of over 50 years. The how where why of putting that range of dates and denominations together upwards of 100 years later needs a reasonable story.
@jesbroken said:
Is it confirmed that all the coin with the omega stamp were fakes? If so, what is the defining giveaway to the coins being counterfeit? If no one truly knows, could not they be real coins that someone placed the omega stamp on? Just curious.
Jim
The omega is raised. You can only "stamp" it on the die.
There are other markers. The coins are definitely not real U.S. Mint issues.
kbbll….just to be clear. I posted along time ago that this was a crime of fraud. Selling fake gold coins to collectors by deceit. Fraud is a difficult white collar crime to prosecute and is mainly a violation of State laws Counterfeiting on the other hand is a Federal crime and has the full weight and power of the Federal govt to investigate and prosecute. This is where my father came in. Counterfeiting laws are used to protect legal tender. If you make a legal tender coin or bill, you are defrauding the US govt and they don't like that. If you make a coin or bill that is no longer legal tender...they don't give a poo! The counterfeiting laws also have definitions about the object you are producing. It must be a NEARLY exact replication of the original to be considered a counterfeit. Here is the rub. Laws are sometimes ambiguous. Who decides what NEARLY means. Remember Clinton invoked the question what is the definition of IS. He was a lawyer. Bonanno was retired, fat and content but still alittle devilish and wanted to play it safe. He had in his possession real die and they would make EXACT replica's.... not nearly exact and this concerned them even though the coins were no longer legal tender. Why not have double protection against prosecution. Even though they were not legal tender, lets make them not exact also!!! By adding an Omega symbol to the die solves that problem. How can it be nearly exact when it has extra carvings on the die which results in a raised Omega symbol that is clearly visible. It was not my fathers or JB's fault that you needed a high power microscope to see it. Case in point. No one was ever arrested or prosecuted by the Federal govt or State government despite this crime. How did all the experts who said these coins were real not get put out of business or sued for millions. Because it is a fraud and at that time, no one gave a poo. Also note, the Secret Service only became involved because of the deep concern that a coin made this well by the standards of the day could lead to actual counterfeiting. To my knowledge they only pursued the course of tracking a missing press to Papadeous junk yard in Tucson, Az. The Omega engraving was deliberate. Food for thought.
I believe a small quantity of Omegas were punched out with the original die. They would not have the Omega sign as it was engraved on the die made by reverse engineering. The grain map will match that of the mint coins. I believe they did not want to damage the newly made die in test run operations as a lot of money and time was spent. The decided the used die would be better to use if anything went wrong. Like I said, they were used but still had life to them. There were some coins called Originals in the very beginning. Now the experts can comment if they can get up off the ground from laughing.
@ToTellTheTruth - I appreciate the passion you have for your story. I totally get the fraud versus counterfeiting legal stuff. I'm not really sure how splitting those hairs really mattered that much though. They must have been crossing state lines, and even if they weren't, it was a $20 million fraud, which I would think would get enough attention on its own.
For the movie though I think there's going to need to be some people getting whacked. A wiseguy getting all MS70'd in the coin press or something.
kbbpll, jwitten and others...….My story tells a progression of the making of the Omega, starting with the double eagle. I mentioned many times that Bonanno wanted to stay alive and would offer his projects to the syndicate. Once sold, he may or may not have a role. Bonanno stressed quality in everything he did. It paid off as he was never prosecuted as a criminal until he tampered with jurors at his sons trial. The new buyers were not so interested in quality or keeping the standards of JB. So here is my question. Is the omega sign different in anyway from coin to coin? Frenchie may not have been around after the double eagle. I'm guessing he left the planet early.
@totellthetruth said:
kbbpll, jwitten and others...….My story tells a progression of the making of the Omega, starting with the double eagle. I mentioned many times that Bonanno wanted to stay alive and would offer his projects to the syndicate. Once sold, he may or may not have a role. Bonanno stressed quality in everything he did. It paid off as he was never prosecuted as a criminal until he tampered with jurors at his sons trial. The new buyers were not so interested in quality or keeping the standards of JB. So here is my question. Is the omega sign different in anyway from coin to coin? Frenchie may not have been around after the double eagle. I'm guessing he left the planet early.
As an Authenticator I never noticed any significant difference between any two Omega $20 counterfeits, but then I was not looking for differences. Once we identified the Omega mark we did not feel much of a need to study the rest of the coin(s).
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Thank you. My question is regarding other Omega coins that are not dbl eagles. If they were produced by others, the engraver may be a different individual. Artists are finicky, they like to interject their artistic traits and impressions. There are two pictures on this thread. One of an omega in the eagles claw and the other in an R. Can you appreciate anything different?
I thank you for your informative posts and am interested in more information in this counterfeit's regard. Is there a book, pamphlet, or article that is made up of facts and not conjecture available? If there are no legal facts known that would bring the truth of the counterfeit coin about, I would assume it to be over,but if there are discernible facts then it should be relegated to our authorities to at least inform the public of the event and the reasons it has not been previously investigated and prosecuted. JMO
Your knowledge and contributions to this post is appreciated.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I have been credited by the FBI for my work in the Zodiac murder cases. They provided a written position on my work to the SFPD. "To the highest degree of probability, Dr. D'Antonio has invented a previously unknown scientific technique in the forensic science of documents examination. Most likely a variant of hyperspectral digital imaging. To the highest degree of probability, the data and evidence Dr. D'Antonio produces is authentic and on the paper or item he has examined"...Strikeout, this is my favor. Would it be hard to FOIA this statement as it was written about 5 years ago and could you do it for me? I use science to obtain data, which may or may not be evidence. This data frequently leads to other items to be examined which yields more data. SCIENCE doesn't lie, It is THOSE with an agenda that do. Science is frequently advanced by technology. My work is remarkably similar to Skip Fazzari. I used a digital screen and cameras to capture previously invisible data. I can now make it visible. Fazzari used new technology to reveal previously invisible data to make it visible. I am the absolute authority for determining if a Zodiac letter is authentic or not. I have reversed the conclusion of handwriting experts who ruled some Zodiac letters were fakes, when in reality they are genuine. I do not use one piece of evidence to make a decision, I use a preponderance of evidence. I clarify my comments to include "based on the technology of today, I am of the opinion". Fazzari was able to debunk Breen and his associates in very similar fashion. What is almost impossible for me to believe is that Breen would wage a war against these scientific breakthroughs and the evidence they produced to defend his authentication of the Omega. In the end, he has to concede to science. Almost as unbelievable is that he continues to be regarded as the father of coin authentication. This man was relied upon by uneducated buyers to help them in the process of spending a lot of money on an item whose value was 100% established by its authenticity, other than the value of the material it was made from...gold. Clearly, this is the greatest blunder in the history of the coin collecting hobby/industry. How many people lost money and a lot of it? Then to throw salt in the wound, he leads a battle against science by ignoring the evidence it produces and defends his opinion with junk science. Why is this man so well regarded? He is the embarrassment of the coin collecting industry. Are the coin gods of today just sweeping this under the rug to protect the industry? Where were all the lawsuits? Who went out of business? Who was ever investigated by the authorities? As we say Tucson...NADA! (nothing for you gringos)
Please compare the Omegas for differences. Gather data to follow a new lead? Answer the questions above. Ask yourself....why is this individual defending Breen? What is his/her agenda?? What compensation was made to the ones defrauded?
I have come here to share a story with you for no compensation, no book deal. I did the same with my Zodiac work. There is over a thousand photos of the artwork of the Zodiac killer and would make a superb book. I have turned down numerous book offers. I then decided to show the world my Zodiac work for free on YouTube. Bonanno taught me...everyone has an agenda. It may be good or bad, but figure it out. Then you will know why they do what they do.
What's mine? Think I came on here to get a beating? To be humiliated or mocked? I didn't call Hollywood, they called me. You now know who made those coins. Your most important question is how could this have happened and what has our industry done to prevent it from ever happening again? What have we done to those who allowed it to happen? Always remember, the MOB targets those with weaknesses known as the 7 deadlies. Man has weaknesses that leaves them vulnerable and they get exploited like there is no tomorrow. Newton Pfeiffer liked little boys. He had a failed experiment with gravity. JB made his living by targeting those who had these weaknesses. So why did he target you? He targeted you and had one of his greatest triumphs ever. One of the greatest frauds perpetrated on the American public. Greed, Greed, Greed! They were plentiful, sold cheap and sold like hotcakes.
JB was a father figure to me and he never hid who he was or what he had done in his life. He had a very evil side to him, he ordered men killed,but there was side that was so intelligent and clever that you could not deny his wisdom. One quality would have stopped this entire story. INTEGRITY. Please don't tell me Breen had it. I came here to tell you a story of my childhood, but why you guys ? Why not the National Inquirer or True Crime Magazine.? As the coins "SOLD LIKE HOTCAKES" we would say wow uncle B you are a genius. All he would say is What did I teach you, I was right wasn't I. They couldn't resist. Greed. Now you know the rest of the story!
For me, the most tenuous part of this whole story is that original dies for the high-relief Saint-Gaudens somehow escaped the US Mint. It is not impossible, but it is entirely unprecedented for uncancelled dies to leave the US Mint.
@dcarr said:
For me, the most tenuous part of this whole story is that original dies for the high-relief Saint-Gaudens somehow escaped the US Mint. It is not impossible, but it is entirely unprecedented for uncancelled dies to leave the US Mint.
@dcarr said:
Breen is NOT at all "well regarded" in the numismatic community.
At one time he was considered one of the top numismatists in the country. His personal exploits, jokes about his appearance, etc. were another story entirely. I only heard the stories about his manners until other crimes came out.
I will also post that numismatics is fortunate that a Walter Breen existed. It seems that after folks are gone and more research is done/expanded/exposed many of our former "heroes" turned out to have MAJOR flaws not associated with their contributions. Ford, Sheldon, Hancock, quickly come to mind. Nevertheless, our hobby/business is richer for their "flawed" presence.
@dcarr said:
For me, the most tenuous part of this whole story is that original dies for the high-relief Saint-Gaudens somehow escaped the US Mint. It is not impossible, but it is entirely unprecedented for uncancelled dies to leave the US Mint.
I must go back and re-read Roger’s excellent book on the 1907 coinage to see which hubs and/or dies were made outside of the Mint, where, human nature being what it is, an extra set could conceivably have been made and retained.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@dcarr said:
For me, the most tenuous part of this whole story is that original dies for the high-relief Saint-Gaudens somehow escaped the US Mint. It is not impossible, but it is entirely unprecedented for uncancelled dies to leave the US Mint.
Personally, I find the 50 peso part more implausible.
They had an artist and a reducing lathe, they really didn't need original dies, but they did need planchets. Striking over 50 peso coins after rolling would have to leave some evidence of the understrike, wouldn't it?
RE: "I must go back and re-read Roger’s excellent book on the 1907 coinage to see which hubs and/or dies were made outside of the Mint, where, human nature being what it is, an extra set could conceivably have been made and retained."
The Philadelphia Mint received only large plaster models. No work of any kind was performed outside of the mint. The only non-mint person involved was Henri Weil, an employee of Deitsch Bros. He installed the mint's Janviar reducing lathe and helped Barber and George Soley make brass reductions and cut the first extremely high relief hubs in January 1907 for the patterns. He was never at the mint at any other time and Barber supervised Soley's reductions of the 2nd set of models from which MCMVII high relief double eagles were made.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I just finished working for the U.S government. Despite meeting many dedicated hard working individuals with the finest integrity, I was appalled by the utter incompetence and lack of dedication that existed. I had to go thru metal detectors minimum 8 times a day and I have an artificial metal knee which always set it off. No metal at all is allowed to be on you so off with the rolex, the gold crucifix, the cell phones, and the gold omegas in my pockets. After you set the detector off, stop, hands out and you get wanded and patted down. After my fourth day, I was never wanded again, never patted down again, never searched again. I never took my watch off, nor my belt ,nor my crucifix,nor my cell phone, nor did I remove my Omegas despite setting the detector off. I wasn't worried either as I would have just pled being stupid and in a hurry. They viewed me as a pain in the rear.
Some of these metal detector operators were just plain dumb, but the majority just didn't want to bother or even get up. Many federal workers are way overworked and way overstressed. Ever heard of going Postal. Going Postal is discussed during orientation as a common work related issue. I was in absolute maximum security and clearance buildings. I could have walked in with plutonium and built an h bomb or walked out with anything I wanted. Ever heard of Snowden and what he walked out with. The story of how those die were obtained is so, so believable....you have no idea. Please! The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain. PS I was instructed to commit two felonies, perjury and falsification of a government document in order to complete a work assignment by a superior which I refused. You have no idea how far we have fallen.
@dcarr I have a new overstrike idea for you.... Omega High Relief counterfeit overstruck on 50 gold pesos. Make sure to show the underlining coin still... that would be awesome!!
Let's not get distracted by the dies. The dies are beyond irrelevant to the alleged story. They did not need stolen dies from the Mint. And the dies they allegedly had from the Mint were useless and not used to strike the coins anyway.
If one considers the dies important, you will now have to figure out how the dies were acquired for all the other Omega fakes. Those fakes are different denominations and vastly different years so they could not have easily had the same source, especially as laid out by TTTTs.
Fascinating narrative. I believe the TTTT explanation for the Omega 1907s, and also believe that some 1907s were made without the Omega sign. They are out there and somebody has liability, as they are fakes.
The coins with the Omega are replicas. Perhaps some violation of state laws, but nothing ever worth pursuing.
The idea that dies were not rendered useless and taken to the dump is very believable.
@jmlanzaf said:
Let's not get distracted by the dies. The dies are beyond irrelevant to the alleged story. They did not need stolen dies from the Mint. And the dies they allegedly had from the Mint were useless and not used to strike the coins anyway.
If one considers the dies important, you will now have to figure out how the dies were acquired for all the other Omega fakes. Those fakes are different denominations and vastly different years so they could not have easily had the same source, especially as laid out by TTTTs.
Ignore the dies. They are a distraction.
I think the dies are of great importance. They set the crime in motion. Without their availability, the Omega fakes would never have been though of. As for the $3 Omega's, that's a different story, as far as anything I have read. Perhaps the engraver did those later.
Comments
Cliff notes - TTTT came to share a wonderful story he witnessed first hand for the most part relating to the Omega's. We didn't have an active Forum Moderator then, too many people got crazy with him, and robbed the rest of us who wanted to know the rest of the story of its conclusion.
Here is a PDF of his comments in the original thread before it was deleted saved by jmlanzaf
http://www.chemgod.com/ebay3/I actually do have some information on the Omega Man.pdf
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" is a Carl Sagan quote that speaks to the nature of critical or scientific thinking. Although these claims about the 1907 Omega High Reliefs seem extraordinary to us numismatists, they really aren't extraordinary. I believe that adequate evidence as has been presented by TTTT to make this story the currently accepted explanation (at least for myself) of how these counterfeits came to be.
Is it extraordinary that a high quality counterfeit would be produced from an original die? No. Is it extraordinary that a master engraver and other experts would be needed to be employed to produce and distribute a high quality counterfeit? No. Is it extraordinary that organized crime would be involved in such an enterprise that required considerable money, planning, secrecy and expertise? No. Is it extraordinary that a counterfeit of this quality would fool many experts the first time that this high quality had been seen? No.
So what's so extraordinary (meaning unlikely) about TTTT's story? Nothing. It's just a great story for us numismatists as it answers some interesting numismatic questions but the Zodiac story may have broader interest among the public. However, the Zodiac story has been done several times and Omega hasn't been told yet. If done right, it could be pretty successful.
believe that adequate evidence as has been presented by TTTT to make this story the currently accepted explanation (at least for myself) of how these counterfeits came to be.
What about all the evidence that runs counter to it? Most specifically the 50 peso use which does not mesh with observations of the omega coins.
There are also numerous inconsistencies in the story which were discussed elsewhere.
It's not impossible. But I also would stop FAR short of saying that adequate evidence of anything has been presented.
Although I agree completely with jmlanzaf's last sentence in the post
directly above, I do not believe the story at this time, based on the
'story' only, and no other proof/evidence - I'm very willing to change
my mind, but would need a heck of a lot more to do so.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Agree. I'm trying really hard not to tweak anyone here.
But am I the only one who wonders why the Trump administration sent a 63 year old doctor to Federal Law Enforcement training for a temporary 1 year appointment during which he was involved in making a movie???
[Apologies to TTTT and anyone who is less cynical than I am.]
[Edited to correct job title.]
I'm not claiming that this is proven fact but I'll accept it as the currently most plausible story, until you can tell me a better one. Accepted fact would require more evidence.
Inconsistencies like claiming that 150 ton press was a 15 ton press or other claims that rely on old memories are to be expected. But the basic who, what, when, and how all seems to make sense with minor variations, and it's pretty much the way that such an item like the 1907 HR Omegas would have been expected or predicted to have been created.
I remember some discussion about the color of the Omegas vs. the 50 Pesos but I also remember that it was observed that color among 1907 HRs and other US gold coins can and does vary from coin to coin. The non-gold 10% can and does react differently over time to produce variations in color, so color was acceptable to those who proclaimed the Omegas genuine.
My quick observations - first, we may call it Omega, but it looks more like a cursive capital Q to me in the various images. Like number 3 below. Possibly something else when upside-down.
It appears to be incuse - correct? This means it's raised on the die, implying that it was not added to the die itself, but engraved into an original, whether coin for transfer, or hub made from original die. Right? My knowledge of the process is weak, but if it was an original die as claimed, it seems like they would have had to create a hub, engrave the "symbol formerly known as Omega", then create die(s). Presuming of course that it is actually incuse, which it appears to me to be.
The contention that this was a criminal enterprise rings true enough to me. What lone wolf counterfeiter has $2 million to spend on bullion coins?
The contention I've read elsewhere that this was connected to the anti-war movement (due to the use of the purported Omega) seems silly to me. None of those hippies had any money. I can't fathom what purpose it would have served to promote their cause.
The contention that they produced 40 without the symbol and stopped because the die wore out doesn't ring true. Why stop at 40? How would they then create a new die with the symbol if the original die was so worn out? I can however see them making some test coins while waiting for more equipment to arrive or something.
The inclusion of the signature symbol to skirt around the actual laws sounds plausible. However, it doesn't seem like underworld guys like this really worry about that too much. The people at the top of the chain don't get caught.
The purchase of some tens of thousands of Mexican bullion coins raises the question of where and how so many were obtained without raising suspicion or being subsequently tracked down by Secret Service.
Where did the 1910, 1913, 1926 $10 and 1874, 1878 and 1882 $3 dies come from? That little archaeological dig in the mint backyard? Stashed away somewhere for upwards of 100 years?
Interesting stuff to speculate about and I'm sure all my points have already been discussed somewhere ad nauseam.
Some very good posts. KB, even though you don't post much, I was impressed with your observation that the Omega sign is engraved on the die.. If you go back and read, you will find that an expert was brought in to confirm that the die were genuine or authentic prior to purchase. This expert had to have worked at some time in the engraving department of a mint because his conclusion was they were genuine, but worn and would likely not last long before they would collapse. The word collapse is what I remember was used. It was estimated that they could strike out a small (30,40,50?) coins.
His opinion gave credence to the man selling the die. They were scheduled for destruction (chiseled) and then disposed as they were basically worn out. Here is what I know and you can use this information to further your thought process. The die were purchased and the hunt for a press began. It was quite some time (6mo or more) before the press arrived in Tucson. Within weeks of the purchase, three new men arrived in Tucson and were kept together as a group. They lived in Tucson and were part of JB's network, but really didn't appear to be doing much. One was a retired mint worker who was a press operator. Another was a machinist. The third was "Frenchie". He was a real prima donna who expected everyone to wait on him. he was the engraver.
I talked with my brother about this a lot as we were used to drive these people around as there were not enough cars at first. My brother would bring the other two men down to the maze of buildings on Stone Ave. and they went into a tin (galvanized) building which still stands. This is where all the equipment for producing the coins eventually ended up. They would only work for a few hours and my brother would bring them back to JB's. Their clothes were never soiled or hands dirty. We don't know what they did in that building but the press did not exist. In the meantime, JB was constantly trying to get the prima donna to go into his guesthouse and work. JB wanted him to work at the same time the other two men were gone which was about two hours a day. It is during this time period that I first saw a machine that would not fit in the guesthouse so was down in Bonanno's basement. This machine was the reducer/engraver. I was down in the basement many times and there was an area about 3 feet in diameter on the floor at one end of the machine that was covered in plaster dust. We always had to check our shoes when we left the basement and there was a bucket of water at the top of the stairs to dip your shoes in if they were white. This went on for somewhere along 6 or so months. I had never seen anyone push the limits of disrespect of JB like that of "Frenchie". He really upset Bonanno with his prissiness and demands.
Remember that Bonanno was allowed to live as long as he did not engage in any traditional mob activities. Frauds were excluded and encouraged as Bonanno would test out his ideas and then sell the business to the syndicate. He might still be involved to a degree, but once sold...what they choose to do was their business and JB was smart enough to not put his nose in their business. I do not remember seeing any other coin and I do not believe these other coins were manufactured by JB . I believe the poor quality is reflected in their production and JB stressed perfection.
When the double eagle frauds were finally revealed as frauds, the manufacturing had already been slowly winding down. Bonanno was not upset about the detection, but more curious how THEY did it as he was not aware how they did it. The only emotion I remember was absolute surprise. When the coins were exposed as fakes, these men just disappeared. The only sign of panic or worry I ever witnessed is when my father was informed that the Secret Service was on the trail of the press and had ended up in Nogales. Sonora. It was a terribly tense time that only ended when that press was mashed into a block of metal by a car crusher.
For some of you, please read carefully. I never said I became and FBI agent. I worked for the DOJ as a law enforcement officer and I showed my official id to eagle eyes. I left that job after I was approached by a Hollywood production company official who made me an offer I couldn't refuse. Trump did not send me there. I asked Trump to consider me as a candidate for the position of Surgeon General of the United States, but I would serve our country in anyway I could. I showed that letter to Eagle Eyes. After speaking with former Surgeon General Richard Carmona who now lives in Tucson, I lost interest. He told me about the downside of the job and the nightmare and expense of living in DC. He was not positive in any way. I suggested something different. I will not take a position that requires me to live in DC.
I came here as a guest to tell one of many stories that occurred during my childhood. I can only provide info as to what my memories remember. Stop making up things I did not say. My work in the Zodiac murders is huge. A film production company is submitting a short film in less than a month to film festivals. I will not come here and share these memories if you don't have the ability to post the truth. My name on this site is ToTellTheTruth. I live by that. I hate liars and throw them out of my life as soon a I hear a lie. I have a photographic memory which is a blessing and a curse. Many a person or even relative has been pinged from my life because they lie. It is clear to me that some of you make up facts and statements to degrade me or my stories. It is your way of creating conflict which results in combative episodes. I went away for over a year ONLY because I have bigger and more important things to do and time is my greatest enemy. It is clear that if you were to state facts and quote me correctly, your position to destroy this story falls apart. Please note, in over a year, all the angles that were going to be pursued and investigated to gut this story never panned out. Nothing. The production company was curious as to what the experts on this website came up with to debunk my story. As we say in Tucson...NADA! That's right experts, nothing in over a year to debunk me. You just sold the story. My Congrats.
I think you might want to look more closely at the discussion in, I believe, this very thread.
Could you remind me of the years that the press was in operation?
Is it confirmed that all the coin with the omega stamp were fakes? If so, what is the defining giveaway to the coins being counterfeit? If no one truly knows, could not they be real coins that someone placed the omega stamp on? Just curious.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
)
bump
It’s a cool story, lots of crazy stuff went down in Tucson over the years I love that town
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
@totellthetruth - "observation that the Omega sign is engraved on the die" - actually I'm saying the opposite. If the symbol is incuse on the coins, it is raised on the die, not engraved into it. Implying that it was engraved into a hub, which when transferred to a die, becomes raised on the die. The plaster dust implies they were making a galvano? Can a reducing lathe be reversed to create a galvano out of a die?
One of the things that still doesn't have a sufficient explanation for me is that the 7 known fakes span a period of over 50 years. The how where why of putting that range of dates and denominations together upwards of 100 years later needs a reasonable story.
Dear Jesbroken. I am not an expert, but I know the answer. At the time of the Omegas were produced. The criteria to verify the coin as authentic was quite rudimentary. Usually a jewelers loop and the opinion and expertise of the authenticator. That was it. Interestingly the Zodiac killer letters were deemed authentic or fake in about the same way and the time period is about the same. What happened? Due to the lack of technical assistance, the opinion of the authenticator carried the weight to determine the authenticity. This presents a problem. Men can be corrupted and or influenced. I just read where real estate appraisers are under extreme duress to come up with a value of a home that is acceptable to NOT KILL the deal. If they don't, they are shunned by the real estate industry. Accordingly, many of the home appraisals are false, fake, not real.
Now comes a young, inexperienced hard working authenticator who is still learning the business. He is to inexperienced to authenticate the Omegas, but he is eager to learn and he dedicates himself to long hard hours to learn. During this time, he notices something unusual. The Omegas are flooding the market and they are selling like hotcakes. They have very low reserves and they just keep coming. They are high quality and the esteemed authenticators of the day are claiming they are real. He has a light bulb in his head and it is flashing and he is paying attention to it. He doesn't understand. but he knows something is not right. His name is Skip Fazzari. Now just like the young kids of today, he has more knowledge of technological tools coming into the world. He has knowledge of these new things called hi powered microscopes. His greatest accomplishment is he makes the decision to find one and start looking at these coins, hoping he may find something....anything. Think of all the hours he sacrificed after his long day at work scouring that coin. Then it happens. He finds the omega sign in the claw of the eagle. Is he cheered? Is he applauded? No, the esteemed authenticators tell him is full of bulla (similar to what they tell me). He was right.
Now with the advent of electron microscopes, they can map the graining of the metal which should match the graining of the die. Because the Omegas have a different grain pattern, it proves a different die was used which supports my story. Food for thought. I know that a few coins are out there that the grain will match
I believe it is raised on the die.
yes, you can reverse the lathe.
The omega is raised. You can only "stamp" it on the die.
There are other markers. The coins are definitely not real U.S. Mint issues.
Well --- this "Summary" is longer than the Special Counsel's Report summary.
Maybe someone will save the thread before it gets removed.
kbbll….just to be clear. I posted along time ago that this was a crime of fraud. Selling fake gold coins to collectors by deceit. Fraud is a difficult white collar crime to prosecute and is mainly a violation of State laws Counterfeiting on the other hand is a Federal crime and has the full weight and power of the Federal govt to investigate and prosecute. This is where my father came in. Counterfeiting laws are used to protect legal tender. If you make a legal tender coin or bill, you are defrauding the US govt and they don't like that. If you make a coin or bill that is no longer legal tender...they don't give a poo! The counterfeiting laws also have definitions about the object you are producing. It must be a NEARLY exact replication of the original to be considered a counterfeit. Here is the rub. Laws are sometimes ambiguous. Who decides what NEARLY means. Remember Clinton invoked the question what is the definition of IS. He was a lawyer. Bonanno was retired, fat and content but still alittle devilish and wanted to play it safe. He had in his possession real die and they would make EXACT replica's.... not nearly exact and this concerned them even though the coins were no longer legal tender. Why not have double protection against prosecution. Even though they were not legal tender, lets make them not exact also!!! By adding an Omega symbol to the die solves that problem. How can it be nearly exact when it has extra carvings on the die which results in a raised Omega symbol that is clearly visible. It was not my fathers or JB's fault that you needed a high power microscope to see it. Case in point. No one was ever arrested or prosecuted by the Federal govt or State government despite this crime. How did all the experts who said these coins were real not get put out of business or sued for millions. Because it is a fraud and at that time, no one gave a poo. Also note, the Secret Service only became involved because of the deep concern that a coin made this well by the standards of the day could lead to actual counterfeiting. To my knowledge they only pursued the course of tracking a missing press to Papadeous junk yard in Tucson, Az. The Omega engraving was deliberate. Food for thought.
I believe a small quantity of Omegas were punched out with the original die. They would not have the Omega sign as it was engraved on the die made by reverse engineering. The grain map will match that of the mint coins. I believe they did not want to damage the newly made die in test run operations as a lot of money and time was spent. The decided the used die would be better to use if anything went wrong. Like I said, they were used but still had life to them. There were some coins called Originals in the very beginning. Now the experts can comment if they can get up off the ground from laughing.
I wonder where they got the reducer trace lathe from?
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
The "grain" will not match that of the mint coins. You need to know more about how dies are made and used.
Here's a close up of my omega
@ToTellTheTruth - I appreciate the passion you have for your story. I totally get the fraud versus counterfeiting legal stuff. I'm not really sure how splitting those hairs really mattered that much though. They must have been crossing state lines, and even if they weren't, it was a $20 million fraud, which I would think would get enough attention on its own.
For the movie though I think there's going to need to be some people getting whacked. A wiseguy getting all MS70'd in the coin press or something.
You could buy one if you wanted. Small private mints use them, after all.
Don't forget that we need some "broads" looking good for the movie...."molls"?
Well, just Love coins, period.
“Molls” ~ female companion and/or prostitute to bad guy; short for ”Molly”
jwitten - With that tiny vertical line, it looks more like a shamrock....The IRISH PUB MOB !
kbbpll, jwitten and others...….My story tells a progression of the making of the Omega, starting with the double eagle. I mentioned many times that Bonanno wanted to stay alive and would offer his projects to the syndicate. Once sold, he may or may not have a role. Bonanno stressed quality in everything he did. It paid off as he was never prosecuted as a criminal until he tampered with jurors at his sons trial. The new buyers were not so interested in quality or keeping the standards of JB. So here is my question. Is the omega sign different in anyway from coin to coin? Frenchie may not have been around after the double eagle. I'm guessing he left the planet early.
As an Authenticator I never noticed any significant difference between any two Omega $20 counterfeits, but then I was not looking for differences. Once we identified the Omega mark we did not feel much of a need to study the rest of the coin(s).
Thank you. My question is regarding other Omega coins that are not dbl eagles. If they were produced by others, the engraver may be a different individual. Artists are finicky, they like to interject their artistic traits and impressions. There are two pictures on this thread. One of an omega in the eagles claw and the other in an R. Can you appreciate anything different?
@totellthetruth
I thank you for your informative posts and am interested in more information in this counterfeit's regard. Is there a book, pamphlet, or article that is made up of facts and not conjecture available? If there are no legal facts known that would bring the truth of the counterfeit coin about, I would assume it to be over,but if there are discernible facts then it should be relegated to our authorities to at least inform the public of the event and the reasons it has not been previously investigated and prosecuted. JMO
Your knowledge and contributions to this post is appreciated.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
I have been credited by the FBI for my work in the Zodiac murder cases. They provided a written position on my work to the SFPD. "To the highest degree of probability, Dr. D'Antonio has invented a previously unknown scientific technique in the forensic science of documents examination. Most likely a variant of hyperspectral digital imaging. To the highest degree of probability, the data and evidence Dr. D'Antonio produces is authentic and on the paper or item he has examined"...Strikeout, this is my favor. Would it be hard to FOIA this statement as it was written about 5 years ago and could you do it for me? I use science to obtain data, which may or may not be evidence. This data frequently leads to other items to be examined which yields more data. SCIENCE doesn't lie, It is THOSE with an agenda that do. Science is frequently advanced by technology. My work is remarkably similar to Skip Fazzari. I used a digital screen and cameras to capture previously invisible data. I can now make it visible. Fazzari used new technology to reveal previously invisible data to make it visible. I am the absolute authority for determining if a Zodiac letter is authentic or not. I have reversed the conclusion of handwriting experts who ruled some Zodiac letters were fakes, when in reality they are genuine. I do not use one piece of evidence to make a decision, I use a preponderance of evidence. I clarify my comments to include "based on the technology of today, I am of the opinion". Fazzari was able to debunk Breen and his associates in very similar fashion. What is almost impossible for me to believe is that Breen would wage a war against these scientific breakthroughs and the evidence they produced to defend his authentication of the Omega. In the end, he has to concede to science. Almost as unbelievable is that he continues to be regarded as the father of coin authentication. This man was relied upon by uneducated buyers to help them in the process of spending a lot of money on an item whose value was 100% established by its authenticity, other than the value of the material it was made from...gold. Clearly, this is the greatest blunder in the history of the coin collecting hobby/industry. How many people lost money and a lot of it? Then to throw salt in the wound, he leads a battle against science by ignoring the evidence it produces and defends his opinion with junk science. Why is this man so well regarded? He is the embarrassment of the coin collecting industry. Are the coin gods of today just sweeping this under the rug to protect the industry? Where were all the lawsuits? Who went out of business? Who was ever investigated by the authorities? As we say Tucson...NADA! (nothing for you gringos)
Please compare the Omegas for differences. Gather data to follow a new lead? Answer the questions above. Ask yourself....why is this individual defending Breen? What is his/her agenda?? What compensation was made to the ones defrauded?
I have come here to share a story with you for no compensation, no book deal. I did the same with my Zodiac work. There is over a thousand photos of the artwork of the Zodiac killer and would make a superb book. I have turned down numerous book offers. I then decided to show the world my Zodiac work for free on YouTube. Bonanno taught me...everyone has an agenda. It may be good or bad, but figure it out. Then you will know why they do what they do.
What's mine? Think I came on here to get a beating? To be humiliated or mocked? I didn't call Hollywood, they called me. You now know who made those coins. Your most important question is how could this have happened and what has our industry done to prevent it from ever happening again? What have we done to those who allowed it to happen? Always remember, the MOB targets those with weaknesses known as the 7 deadlies. Man has weaknesses that leaves them vulnerable and they get exploited like there is no tomorrow. Newton Pfeiffer liked little boys. He had a failed experiment with gravity. JB made his living by targeting those who had these weaknesses. So why did he target you? He targeted you and had one of his greatest triumphs ever. One of the greatest frauds perpetrated on the American public. Greed, Greed, Greed! They were plentiful, sold cheap and sold like hotcakes.
JB was a father figure to me and he never hid who he was or what he had done in his life. He had a very evil side to him, he ordered men killed,but there was side that was so intelligent and clever that you could not deny his wisdom. One quality would have stopped this entire story. INTEGRITY. Please don't tell me Breen had it. I came here to tell you a story of my childhood, but why you guys ? Why not the National Inquirer or True Crime Magazine.? As the coins "SOLD LIKE HOTCAKES" we would say wow uncle B you are a genius. All he would say is What did I teach you, I was right wasn't I. They couldn't resist. Greed. Now you know the rest of the story!
The summary is over 200 posts!
Fascinating though. The original was definitely my favorite thread of all time.
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
Breen is NOT at all "well regarded" in the numismatic community.
For me, the most tenuous part of this whole story is that original dies for the high-relief Saint-Gaudens somehow escaped the US Mint. It is not impossible, but it is entirely unprecedented for uncancelled dies to leave the US Mint.
I should add: in the modern era (post 1900).
Dead right. In fact, just the opposite.
Smitten with DBLCs.
At one time he was considered one of the top numismatists in the country. His personal exploits, jokes about his appearance, etc. were another story entirely. I only heard the stories about his manners until other crimes came out.
I will also post that numismatics is fortunate that a Walter Breen existed. It seems that after folks are gone and more research is done/expanded/exposed many of our former "heroes" turned out to have MAJOR flaws not associated with their contributions. Ford, Sheldon, Hancock, quickly come to mind. Nevertheless, our hobby/business is richer for their "flawed" presence.
WELCOME BACK @totellthetruth
I need to read the new discussion.
I must go back and re-read Roger’s excellent book on the 1907 coinage to see which hubs and/or dies were made outside of the Mint, where, human nature being what it is, an extra set could conceivably have been made and retained.
Personally, I find the 50 peso part more implausible.
They had an artist and a reducing lathe, they really didn't need original dies, but they did need planchets. Striking over 50 peso coins after rolling would have to leave some evidence of the understrike, wouldn't it?
RE: "I must go back and re-read Roger’s excellent book on the 1907 coinage to see which hubs and/or dies were made outside of the Mint, where, human nature being what it is, an extra set could conceivably have been made and retained."
The Philadelphia Mint received only large plaster models. No work of any kind was performed outside of the mint. The only non-mint person involved was Henri Weil, an employee of Deitsch Bros. He installed the mint's Janviar reducing lathe and helped Barber and George Soley make brass reductions and cut the first extremely high relief hubs in January 1907 for the patterns. He was never at the mint at any other time and Barber supervised Soley's reductions of the 2nd set of models from which MCMVII high relief double eagles were made.
OK thanks.
I just finished working for the U.S government. Despite meeting many dedicated hard working individuals with the finest integrity, I was appalled by the utter incompetence and lack of dedication that existed. I had to go thru metal detectors minimum 8 times a day and I have an artificial metal knee which always set it off. No metal at all is allowed to be on you so off with the rolex, the gold crucifix, the cell phones, and the gold omegas in my pockets. After you set the detector off, stop, hands out and you get wanded and patted down. After my fourth day, I was never wanded again, never patted down again, never searched again. I never took my watch off, nor my belt ,nor my crucifix,nor my cell phone, nor did I remove my Omegas despite setting the detector off. I wasn't worried either as I would have just pled being stupid and in a hurry. They viewed me as a pain in the rear.
Some of these metal detector operators were just plain dumb, but the majority just didn't want to bother or even get up. Many federal workers are way overworked and way overstressed. Ever heard of going Postal. Going Postal is discussed during orientation as a common work related issue. I was in absolute maximum security and clearance buildings. I could have walked in with plutonium and built an h bomb or walked out with anything I wanted. Ever heard of Snowden and what he walked out with. The story of how those die were obtained is so, so believable....you have no idea. Please! The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain. PS I was instructed to commit two felonies, perjury and falsification of a government document in order to complete a work assignment by a superior which I refused. You have no idea how far we have fallen.
@dcarr I have a new overstrike idea for you.... Omega High Relief counterfeit overstruck on 50 gold pesos. Make sure to show the underlining coin still... that would be awesome!!
I changed my mind.
Let's not get distracted by the dies. The dies are beyond irrelevant to the alleged story. They did not need stolen dies from the Mint. And the dies they allegedly had from the Mint were useless and not used to strike the coins anyway.
If one considers the dies important, you will now have to figure out how the dies were acquired for all the other Omega fakes. Those fakes are different denominations and vastly different years so they could not have easily had the same source, especially as laid out by TTTTs.
Ignore the dies. They are a distraction.
Weird.
Fascinating narrative. I believe the TTTT explanation for the Omega 1907s, and also believe that some 1907s were made without the Omega sign. They are out there and somebody has liability, as they are fakes.
The coins with the Omega are replicas. Perhaps some violation of state laws, but nothing ever worth pursuing.
The idea that dies were not rendered useless and taken to the dump is very believable.
I think the dies are of great importance. They set the crime in motion. Without their availability, the Omega fakes would never have been though of. As for the $3 Omega's, that's a different story, as far as anything I have read. Perhaps the engraver did those later.
RE: "Ever heard of Snowden and what he walked out with."
I'll bite -- Which Snowden? What did he walk out with (other than possibly the occasional Adjuster) ?