No one is going to submit a known fake! The guys are dead. If these "gifts" even exist they are in the hands of folks who may not know they are fakes.
Anyway, this is more "fluff" in my opinion. We are writing about things that may not even exist and that's how threads go into the weeds! Did Mr. B strike any Proofs? LOL.
Actually, Breen acquired the dies and used them to strike proofs. It was brilliant, really. Who better to counterfeit coins than the person who could actually authenticate his own handiwork.
Unfortunately, someone here is going to believe you.
The important concept in your post is the fact that he who has the best knowledge of the genuine product can make the best copy if given the right tools and backing. It has been done before.
@FredWeinberg said:
My opinion/my view/my observations only,
is that the Omega $20 HR's have nothing to
do with Mexico 50 Peso Gold pieces either
being melted down, cut down, rolled down, etc.
I could be wrong, I'm glad to change my
view with the right info, but I just don't
see it.
(they look more similar in color to Austrian
100 Corona's, which were illegal in the US
till 1974, but were easily available, 'under
the counter', in coin shops and shows across
the country, in very large quantities if wanted.
I am NOT saying they are they source of the Omega gold pieces.)
Honestly, if you are an international criminal enterprise, legality is not an issue.
And if you can smuggle a coin press in from Argentina, why couldn't you just smuggle in coin planchets from Europe? Or Austrian 100 Coronas if you really want to be in the planchet business yourself...
Unfortunately, someone here is going to believe you.
The important concept in your post is the fact that he who has the best knowledge of the genuine product can make the best copy if given the right tools and backing. It has been done before.
You are suddenly worried about misinformation being spread on THIS thread... SMH
Then someone owes Batts Battaglia's family an apology for accusing him of throwing the jeweler out the window. THAT definitely never happened.
@dcarr said: "That alone would only obliterate perhaps 5% to 10% of the original detail. Annealing and striking would obliterate a lot more. But it would require some physical testing to see how close to a perfect over-strike would be possible without any of the original detail showing.
I have never seen any evidence of an over-strike or die clash on the fake $20. Hopefully, a detailed test of the coins' metal will either match trace elements in the gold or not.
I only made the comment about the A100-C's being
illegal at the time as fact, not that they would have
been just as easy to use as M50P's.
That wasn't my point in the post, as I said in the last
sentence
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@Insider2 said: @dcarr said: "That alone would only obliterate perhaps 5% to 10% of the original detail. Annealing and striking would obliterate a lot more. But it would require some physical testing to see how close to a perfect over-strike would be possible without any of the original detail showing.
I have never seen any evidence of an over-strike or die clash on the fake $20. Hopefully, a detailed test of the coins' metal will either match trace elements in the gold or not.
Does the data exist to compare with a the metal analysis?
@jmlanzaf said: "How do we know they needed to be struck in a counterfeit collar? Are the collars for the omegas mapped and that's how you know?"
Think about what you just asked? The Omega HR have a lettered edge (struck in a collar). TTTT said two dies were bought. What's missing?
PS AFAIK the edge of the fake $20 was not mapped. It was not needed to authenticate the coins so I never did it. We do know that Breen went to the SI and was able to determine that the obverse and revers of the fakes matched a coin in the museum. This is logical as IMHO, the fakes were made using transfer dies.
BTW, when I saw the tiny die polish detail that could be transferred to a fake from a genuine coin, from then on I started keeping track of even more microscopic diagnostic details on genuine coins that were too minuscule to EVER TRANSFER! That is till the case today.
@FredWeinberg said:
I only made the comment about the A100-C's being
illegal at the time as fact, not that they would have
been just as easy to use as M50P's.
That wasn't my point in the post, as I said in the last
sentence
I totally understood your point. The 100 coronas is much closer in size.
Personally, if I were running this operation and I'm not starting with blank planchets, I think I would have just started with $20 libs or saints - they are the right size from the beginning.
And if I want to make sure there's no overstrike problem, I'm going to melt and roll anyway so I could start with any 90% gold source including 50 pesos, 100 Coronos, US $20s etc....
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "How do we know they needed to be struck in a counterfeit collar? Are the collars for the omegas mapped and that's how you know?"
Think about what you just asked? The Omega HR have a lettered edge (struck in a collar). TTTT said two dies were bought. What's missing?
PS AFAIK the edge of the fake $20 was not mapped. It was not needed to authenticate the coins so I never did it. We do know that Breen went to the SI and was able to determine that the obverse and revers of the fakes matched a coin in the museum. This is logical as IMHO, the fakes were made using transfer dies.
BTW, when I saw the tiny die polish detail that could be transferred to a fake from a genuine coin, from then on I started keeping track of even more microscopic diagnostic details on genuine coins that were too minuscule to EVER TRANSFER! That is till the case today.
So, let me get this straight, you are belittling my question because 4T's didn't mention a collar? So, since he also mentions those 40 perfect restrikes, I suppose you want me to accept those as gospel also.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@totellthetruth said:
I have shot myself in the foot. I have posted that I would like to buy an Omega coin. It does not need to be authenticated as I already know it is fake. Unfortunately the popularity of this coin is going back up and so is the price. I don't blame the sellers as it is in demand and I may be part of the rise in popularity. So would someone just burn a damn coin or whatever you do to them and then make me eat crow so the price will go back down and I can get one.
If they make your movie, put in the contract that they need to buy a coin for the movie and it becomes your property after the final take.
@CaptHenway said:
Peace, everybody. Take deep breaths. Relax.
I think that @jmlanzaf and myself have enough respect for each other by now that no deep breaths are needed. I enjoy the way he communicates - straight forward. So IMO, neither of us are breaking any rules or becoming heated. Of course, what is allowed is not up to us.
My opinions:
Omega 3s/Omega 20s...one could have been made first, at the same time, or by different groups.
The dies...I believe some 20s were made without the Omega. Some may be graded in holders.
Raw material...probably Mexican 1947 restrikes. Melted or not.
Bonanno...involved.
@s4ny said:
My opinions:
Omega 3s/Omega 20s...one could have been made first, at the same time, or by different groups.
The dies...I believe some 20s were made without the Omega. Some may be graded in holders.
Raw material...probably Mexican 1947 restrikes. Melted or not.
Bonanno...involved.
I like your post - easy to understand. We have some agreement. 2 out of 4 ain't bad!
@Insider2 "PS AFAIK the edge of the fake $20 was not mapped. It was not needed to authenticate the coins so I never did it. We do know that Breen went to the SI and was able to determine that the obverse and revers of the fakes matched a coin in the museum. This is logical as IMHO, the fakes were made using transfer dies."
So how do you know that one or more of the first 40 "unsigned" coins hasn't turned up or been certified? You seem very sure of this. Have you been checking the edges on every jewelry piece that you have seen and just what percentage of extant 1907 HRs used in jewelry do you think you have documented? Do a Heritage search. There are quite a few jewelry pieces surviving, as they have always been in demand and worth more than melt. I think that these jewelry coins need to be examined more closely and perhaps an analysis of the gold in these could distinguish them from US mint products.
I have little doubt that there are a significant number of the 1907 $20 Omega HRs in hiding. Not the unsold ones, which may or may not still exist but those that were sold. The reason that I can claim this is that there is a good parallel in collectible US currency- the 1900 $10,000 Gold Certificate.
The abbreviated, concise story goes as follow: In 1935 there was a fire in a post office where a quantity of cancelled US $10,000 gold certificates were being held for destruction. They were thrown out the window of the burning building where passers-by picked them up. For many years, they were considered government property and could not be offered at auction or sold openly, but they traded hands under the table. Gradually, the fear of selling these openly subsided (I don't think that the law changed, but it could have) and now the major auction houses and dealers offer them regularly. This change happened about 20-25 years ago.
There is a census, by serial number, of this type and all large size notes and national bank notes as well. During the late 1970s, I believe that there were about 75 different examples of the 1900 $1000 Gold Certificate listed. I don't know the exact number today but believe that it passed 500 years ago and could now be close to 1000 examples known. The change in perceived legal status has brought more of these out of hiding, far more than the increases in known examples of other types and Nationals. If the 1907 Omega HR counterfeit isn't pursued as a counterfeit by the authorities, auctions would offer them and perhaps the TPGs would start certifying them. I'm not advocating this but a change in the perception of legal status of these would bring more of them out into the open market. Right now, there is a reasonable fear that any publicly offered examples could be seized as counterfeits.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
The problems with the existence of these secret initial 40 unmarked strikes is:
There is no reason for them to exist. Even within 4Ts exposition, if you want to believe it, since the consigliore was insisting on the Omega for legal reasons, why would they ever strike and distribute.
Even if they did strike them in #1, they would be in horrible condition due to the rusty refurbished die and the collapsing of the die. They would be easily distinguishable as restrikes.
The whole jewelry angle is a late addition by 4Ts. In the original thread he says, tauntingly, that these 40 coins were certified and indistinguishable from genuine coins. This is impossible. Only after convincing him that they may have made test strikes but could not have passed them as good did 4Ts change the story to suggest they were given away as gifts.
In the end, I defy you to DISPROVE the existence of the Easter Bunny.
The burden of proof should not be on the person who doesn't believe in something that has never been seen but on the person proposing its existence.
Yes, no deep breath required. I appreciate @insider2 We've had our rows in the past, but it is all good fun. Just a couple of paizans banging heads over a dish of internet pasta and a glass of chianti.
@sellitstore asked: "So how do you know that one or more of the first 40 "unsigned" coins hasn't turned up or been certified?"
WHAT FIRST UNSIGNED COINS? I cannot comment on something that does not exist at the moment or up to now. Perhaps, I'll have a comment when one of the fantasy Proof strikes I cooked up for fun hits the market.
"You seem very sure of this. Have you been checking the edges on every jewelry piece that you have seen and just what percentage of extant 1907 HRs used in jewelry do you think you have documented? Do a Heritage search. There are quite a few jewelry pieces surviving, as they have always been in demand and worth more than melt. I think that these jewelry coins need to be examined more closely and perhaps an analysis of the gold in these could distinguish them from US mint products."
I guess you are inferring that the auction company is selling unmarked fake $20 struck outside the Mint using genuine dies. Good luck with your research as I'm not interested in the least in pursuing fantasy coins!
BTW, I'll give you this much: On many occasions in the past (two pertaining to coins) when I was totally sure of something it turned out I was not correct. For example, I was 100% sure Bernie would win the Democrat nomination. Unfortunately it was rigged.
"I have little doubt that there are a significant number of the 1907 $20 Omega HRs in hiding. Not the unsold ones, which may or may not still exist but those that were sold. The reason that I can claim this is that there is a good parallel in collectible US currency- the 1900 $10,000 Gold Certificate."
Not a good example. Apples/Oranges. I've brokered a deal for ten of these notes in the 1990's and kept one for myself. Unfortunately, I sold my PMG graded note to a dealer three years ago. These pieces are not counterfeits. They are more in line with the 1913 nickels.
"..."If the 1907 Omega HR counterfeit isn't pursued as a counterfeit by the authorities, auctions would offer them and perhaps the TPGs would start certifying them. I'm not advocating this but a change in the perception of legal status of these would bring more of them out into the open market. Right now, there is a reasonable fear that any publicly offered examples could be seized as counterfeits."
Read the thread! BTW, the demand for the $20 is such that more should be around than there is. Remember, it has been almost fifty years. Where are they. IMO, most melted.
Wow, heated discussions and I wasn't involved. I have provided new info, maybe small, but new. By now you know that my father represented Kiriaken and Papdeeous. I am sure I spelt it wrong. I am sure I posted in the past about the equipment in the press shop. I can assure no melting took place in that building because it was a furnace to work in in the first place, but there was a roller, a mill and an annealer, etc. The one worker was a mill man, the other a pree operator but they did everything between them. Next the junk yard with only a small parking lot between the shop had a gigantic furnace. They melted scrap metal. Now think of the three men who were all friends and all represented by my father. Where do u think the pesos came from? Russia...who melted metal everyday? Who had multi millions to fund this operation?
The idea that the Omega is an Omegaruski does not hold water in my opinion. A world superpower with vast gold reserves is initially a good candidate but it false apart badly. I would limit the culprits to either the Russian govt or bad guy civilians in the CCCP. I rule out the bad guys as the vast gold reserves were the property of the CCCP and the bad guys would have a huge expense to buy it. They would not care if it was vast or tiny as it all costs the same to them. That leaves the Russian Govt and surely this would be a top, top secret operation carried out by the KGB. THINK...nobody, but nobody was going to be arrested and prosecuted by the US govt for counterfeiting or fraud or anything. At worst, if discovered it would lead to bad relations which were already terrible at the time. The Russians would not be attempting to destabilize our govt because these were not legal tender. Their only motive was to make money. I am okay with that. They had the CCCP mints and equipment at their disposal. They had their vaults of gold to their disposal. They had the best mint workers to their disposal. So how does this fall apart?
The only thing to fear was a bullet in the head from the KGB. This is a top secret, delicate, govt operation. You steal alittle gold filings..goodbye. You talk alittle to loud from vodka...goodbye. No body but nobody fooled around on a kgb operation like this. Now I know the first time I ever saw a pair of binocular eyeglasses was from the engraver. He could see everything on that coin. Soon Bonanno had a pair and then my dad. I know microscopes and binocular glasses existed in the USSR. The KGB is an intelligence agency that spies and carries out special projects for the govt. Surely their mints inspected the Ruble with the high powered glasses or microscopes. The KGB thru simple spying must of been aware that the private sector authenticated the Omegaruski with a scale, a set of calipers and a jewelers loop. Huge difference in standards. They only had to make that coin pass Breen not mint inspectors. I told you the Omega symbol was put on that coin to prevent charges of counterfeiting. There was a bad argument with Bonanno and he called it a red flag blowing in the wind. I told you there was an argument with the engraver. That argument was he was not going to carve that symbol. Now if the Russians didn't have to worry about counterfeiting , why would they put a flag waving in the wind on that coin. The makers would have seen it with their Binocular glasses. That would mean the engraver did it secretly. But why? Eliminate the Omega symbol and that coin was perfect other than some tool marks for that time period and under the standards of authenticators to approve it. If an engraver snuck it on that coin he would have been executed on the spot as an enemy of Mother Russia. The engraver was not the only person in that group that had binocular glasses. His risk of getting it past his bosses was his life. Why? just so he could sign his work? Arrogance? I don't think anyone would have been that foolish to sabotage a kgb operation. That means they would have all been in on it. Why? What purpose did an Omega sign provide to a secret KGB operation other than the risk of destroying the operation, If the engraver was a lone wolf, He committed sabotage multiple times on the other omega coins. He risked his life over and over again Why? For what? If the whole group was in on it, why? Why keep putting that flag in the wind that eventually destroyed a state operated scam. People would have been executed for stupidity. To me, the idea of a Comrade Omegaruski is as we say in the Old pueblo.....LOCO!
Thanks you @jmlanzaf for reassuring me that I was not the only one confused by the post. I think TTTT is saying "no." For the life of me, I can't understand why he doesn't post in simple sentences, eg "I don't think the Russians had anything to do the Omega counterfeits because the engraver would have feared for his life if he added the Omega sign."
Indeed, what I'd like is a simple summary of what TTTT has said. I think anyone attempting to do so would discover a massive number of contradictions. For example, a year ago TTTT started with many confident assertions that 40 "perfect" counterfeits were sold ("The coins were authenticated and sold.") to the coins were sold as jewelry ("has anyone ever heard as coins being used as jewelry") to maybe they were given to friends ("they may have been given to very ,very close friends.") For a person with a self-proclaimed photographic memory, TTTT's claims certain wonder from one post to another...
Thank you forum. My film will be released to film festivals in about two weeks and the phone is ringing off the hooks. Had to meet with a local investigative reporter today and have to go to LA for press releases and prepublicity. Time is my enemy and all the free time I had to post is ending. As the terminator said, "I'll be back". The forum and the owners should be proud as to what has come out on these threads. At times testy, but overall nothing that some thick skin could not repair. I have my favorites and if the Production company goes forward, I will have a lot of say as to the creativity. Even adversaries provide great input. If any of you want to see me or know how my mind works, go to Zodiac News Network on YouTube. There are a dozen episodes and number 6 is my favorite. I think it sold the people in Hollywood to spend some money to check this doctor out in Tucson. They spent a lot of money to make this film.
Several times I have posted..burn one! I am not concerned with the results. It will not change my story in any way. Much of the info I posted was in the beginning, but far less as Bonanno got real serious and very careful. One has posted that there just were not enough Mexican peso coins. If so, I posted that at one point Bonanno drove around with sacks of them in the back of his car and gave them away as gifts. Why would he give away a coin that cost him less than $40 dollars if it could be made to bring in so much more? How would I know what he what he was doing behind closed doors as production issues came up. I was not part of that.
The most impressive man, to me, on this forum is Dcarr. He makes coins and I believe in my heart he knows he could make a Dcarr Omega. He would never go to jail or be a bad guy. All he has to do is put it in a plastic cover with Fake, counterfeit, for educational purposes only. He doesn't call it an Omega but a 1907 HR double eagle $20 with an omega symbol and tool marks. It does not need to be authenticated and he could sell them to coin shops like "hotcakes". It was done by amateurs and he is a pro. He is not counterfeiting a or committing a fraud. Every coin shop I have been to has told me they buy them because they know they will sell them at a profit. I personally hope he does. He hurts no one and could put his kids thru Harvard.
I have decided to go Western for my first interview as I am from Az. I just got my new Scully black on black floral embroidered western cut jacket. Got my embroidered western shirt from the cleaners. Still fit in Levi's. Just got to shine my boots and my dad's turquoise and silver authentic Indian made Bolo tie which now I wonder if it came from China. Last but least, got to get my western sterling silver and gold coin belt buckle that Joe Bonanno gave me on my 16th birthday and shine it up good. I told you I don't have an Omega, but that doesn't mean I don't have a Bonanno coin.
I'd like to quote my favorite Frank Sinatra song as it applies to this adventure. It starts with "And now the end is near" and ends with "I did it my way". As we say in Tucson "Via con dios mi amigos".
@totellthetruth said: "Thank you forum. My film will be released to film festivals in about two weeks and the phone is ringing off the hooks. Had to meet with a local investigative reporter today and have to go to LA for press releases and prepublicity. Time is my enemy and all the free time I had to post is ending. As the terminator said, "I'll be back"..."
"... The most impressive man, to me, on this forum is Dcarr. He makes coins and I believe in my heart he knows he could make a Dcarr Omega."
Well TTTT, I hope your movie is nominated for an Oscar next time!!! Stay Safe.
@dcarr I hope to see at least a silver HR on day. 2022 will be the 50th Anniversary + you could offer an example in gold limited to 40 pieces max.
I have decided to go Western for my first interview as I am from Az. I just got my new Scully black on black floral embroidered western cut jacket. Got my embroidered western shirt from the cleaners. Still fit in Levi's. Just got to shine my boots and my dad's turquoise and silver authentic Indian made Bolo tie which now I wonder if it came from China. Last but least, got to get my western sterling silver and gold coin belt buckle that Joe Bonanno gave me on my 16th birthday and shine it up good. I told you I don't have an Omega, but that doesn't mean I don't have a Bonanno coin.
this post is worthless without pictures.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
In the summer of 2008, Dr. Lawrence P. D’Antonio surfaced with claims that he had solved the Zodiac case by creating an amazing new technique for discovering hidden messages and images on the Zodiac letters. According to D’Antonio, these messages and images were planted by the infamous Zodiac suspect, Arthur Leigh Allen. D’Antonio said that he first came up with this discovery after watching the movie ZODIAC and staying awake for three days in a row. D’Antonio then posted his sensational claims on various Internet message boards. He claimed to be “working with” the SFPD and the FBI, and claimed that his “evidence” proved Allen’s guilt despite the overwhelming evidence of his innocence. D’Antonio repeatedly announced that he had discovered even more damning evidence against Allen and he repeatedly claimed that authorities were close to closing the case. However, as time passed, authorities dismissed D’Antonio’s claims and evidence. D’Antonio later ended his public campaign and his days as an amateur crime-fighter.
D’Antonio’s press releases stated that he was represented by Larry Garrison, the public relations man behind the next Zodiac publicity stunt. Garrison also represented a San Francisco real estate agent named Deborah Perez, who became the subject of worldwide attention when she called a press conference in April 2009 to declare that the Zodiac was her deceased stepfather Guy Ward Hendrickson. Accompanied by Kevin McLean, a former associate of famed attorney Melvin Belli, Perez told reporters that she first suspected her father was the Zodiac when she saw a sketch of the killer while watching a 2007 episode of the popular crime series AMERICA’S MOST WANTED. “I recognized the individual as my father… I researched the Zodiac killer, and to my surprise I found cards and letters that were in police custody that were written by my father or myself.” Perez claimed that she had written the now-infamous Zodiac letter sent to Melvin Belli in December 1969. Perez explained, “I was a child and just thought I was helping my father.”
Police met with Deborah Perez and apparently determined that her claims did not warrant further investigation. According to several sources, including true crime writer M. William Phelps, Perez had also claimed that she was the daughter of President John F. Kennedy. Perez eventually vanished from the glare of the spotlight but her brief appearance had further clouded the public perception of the unsolved mystery.
@jwitten said:
Like I said earlier...Daniel Carr needs to make an omega overstike on whatever TTTT said was the original coin... a 50 peso? That would be awesome.
There's one part of Dr. D'Antonio's account that can be confirmed and agreed upon by all is his connection to his father and his father's connection to Joe Bonanno.
I have a 35 page (!) pdf from 1-31-18 with what I think are TTTT's comments in the original Omega thread. I see where there are responses to posts by others but their posts are not included. I guess I just collected TTTT's contributions. While I think TTTT's comments were a crock, if you want a copy of this pdf pm me your email and I'll send it.
@Mark said:
I have a 35 page (!) pdf from 1-31-18 with what I think are TTTT's comments in the original Omega thread. I see where there are responses to posts by others but their posts are not included. I guess I just collected TTTT's contributions. While I think TTTT's comments were a crock, if you want a copy of this pdf pm me your email and I'll send it.
Is that the one I sent? I had compiled it in January 2018 and sent it to a few people. [See below]
@idratherbgardening said:
To revive a long dead thread, did anyone happen to save this PDF which is no longer available:
I still can't figure out what real motive TTTT had for even providing all this "stuff" to this Forum to begin with.
It's just like the Kennedy Assassination: everybody knows but nobody knows.
Anyway, I bit on this whole thing and still came away with nothing more than questions.
Pete
A forum member with a psych background suggested (privately) it was part of his psychosis. He had some related facts and a delusion that sprung up around it.
TTTT's had a similar delusion relating to the Zodiac killer. If you recall, his last visit here was to tout a movie being made about his Zodiac research that was supposed to be coming out a few months later. I have yet to see any such movie.
I really enjoyed the story and it probably had elements of truth. But I’m not sure we’ll ever know how much was fever dreams.
People like this can be very persuasive.
@jmlanzaf Yes, the document @habaraca is exactly what I have. So it's apparently what you sent me and I just retained it. You did yeoman's work on that file; it's 30 some pages long! And I am surely happy to give you credit for your work.
@Mark said: @jmlanzaf Yes, the document @habaraca is exactly what I have. So it's apparently what you sent me and I just retained it. You did yeoman's work on that file; it's 30 some pages long! And I am surely happy to give you credit for your work.
Thanks. I don't need credit but I just wanted to make sure we all had the same one.
I also have hundreds of pages of FBI files from a FOIA request. Bonnano was under constant surveillance. I find no evidence to support the story. They were aware of a number of criminal enterprises but there no mention of minting equipment or gold. There was something about smuggling in wheels of cheese that made me laugh.
Comments
Unfortunately, someone here is going to believe you.
The important concept in your post is the fact that he who has the best knowledge of the genuine product can make the best copy if given the right tools and backing. It has been done before.
Honestly, if you are an international criminal enterprise, legality is not an issue.
And if you can smuggle a coin press in from Argentina, why couldn't you just smuggle in coin planchets from Europe? Or Austrian 100 Coronas if you really want to be in the planchet business yourself...
You are suddenly worried about misinformation being spread on THIS thread... SMH
Then someone owes Batts Battaglia's family an apology for accusing him of throwing the jeweler out the window. THAT definitely never happened.
@dcarr said: "That alone would only obliterate perhaps 5% to 10% of the original detail. Annealing and striking would obliterate a lot more. But it would require some physical testing to see how close to a perfect over-strike would be possible without any of the original detail showing.
I have never seen any evidence of an over-strike or die clash on the fake $20. Hopefully, a detailed test of the coins' metal will either match trace elements in the gold or not.
I only made the comment about the A100-C's being
illegal at the time as fact, not that they would have
been just as easy to use as M50P's.
That wasn't my point in the post, as I said in the last
sentence
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Does the data exist to compare with a the metal analysis?
@jmlanzaf said: "How do we know they needed to be struck in a counterfeit collar? Are the collars for the omegas mapped and that's how you know?"
Think about what you just asked? The Omega HR have a lettered edge (struck in a collar). TTTT said two dies were bought. What's missing?
PS AFAIK the edge of the fake $20 was not mapped. It was not needed to authenticate the coins so I never did it. We do know that Breen went to the SI and was able to determine that the obverse and revers of the fakes matched a coin in the museum. This is logical as IMHO, the fakes were made using transfer dies.
BTW, when I saw the tiny die polish detail that could be transferred to a fake from a genuine coin, from then on I started keeping track of even more microscopic diagnostic details on genuine coins that were too minuscule to EVER TRANSFER! That is till the case today.
I totally understood your point. The 100 coronas is much closer in size.
Personally, if I were running this operation and I'm not starting with blank planchets, I think I would have just started with $20 libs or saints - they are the right size from the beginning.
And if I want to make sure there's no overstrike problem, I'm going to melt and roll anyway so I could start with any 90% gold source including 50 pesos, 100 Coronos, US $20s etc....
So, let me get this straight, you are belittling my question because 4T's didn't mention a collar? So, since he also mentions those 40 perfect restrikes, I suppose you want me to accept those as gospel also.
Peace, everybody. Take deep breaths. Relax.
If they make your movie, put in the contract that they need to buy a coin for the movie and it becomes your property after the final take.
I think that @jmlanzaf and myself have enough respect for each other by now that no deep breaths are needed. I enjoy the way he communicates - straight forward. So IMO, neither of us are breaking any rules or becoming heated. Of course, what is allowed is not up to us.
My opinions:
Omega 3s/Omega 20s...one could have been made first, at the same time, or by different groups.
The dies...I believe some 20s were made without the Omega. Some may be graded in holders.
Raw material...probably Mexican 1947 restrikes. Melted or not.
Bonanno...involved.
I like your post - easy to understand. We have some agreement. 2 out of 4 ain't bad!
@Insider2 "PS AFAIK the edge of the fake $20 was not mapped. It was not needed to authenticate the coins so I never did it. We do know that Breen went to the SI and was able to determine that the obverse and revers of the fakes matched a coin in the museum. This is logical as IMHO, the fakes were made using transfer dies."
So how do you know that one or more of the first 40 "unsigned" coins hasn't turned up or been certified? You seem very sure of this. Have you been checking the edges on every jewelry piece that you have seen and just what percentage of extant 1907 HRs used in jewelry do you think you have documented? Do a Heritage search. There are quite a few jewelry pieces surviving, as they have always been in demand and worth more than melt. I think that these jewelry coins need to be examined more closely and perhaps an analysis of the gold in these could distinguish them from US mint products.
I have little doubt that there are a significant number of the 1907 $20 Omega HRs in hiding. Not the unsold ones, which may or may not still exist but those that were sold. The reason that I can claim this is that there is a good parallel in collectible US currency- the 1900 $10,000 Gold Certificate.
The abbreviated, concise story goes as follow: In 1935 there was a fire in a post office where a quantity of cancelled US $10,000 gold certificates were being held for destruction. They were thrown out the window of the burning building where passers-by picked them up. For many years, they were considered government property and could not be offered at auction or sold openly, but they traded hands under the table. Gradually, the fear of selling these openly subsided (I don't think that the law changed, but it could have) and now the major auction houses and dealers offer them regularly. This change happened about 20-25 years ago.
There is a census, by serial number, of this type and all large size notes and national bank notes as well. During the late 1970s, I believe that there were about 75 different examples of the 1900 $1000 Gold Certificate listed. I don't know the exact number today but believe that it passed 500 years ago and could now be close to 1000 examples known. The change in perceived legal status has brought more of these out of hiding, far more than the increases in known examples of other types and Nationals. If the 1907 Omega HR counterfeit isn't pursued as a counterfeit by the authorities, auctions would offer them and perhaps the TPGs would start certifying them. I'm not advocating this but a change in the perception of legal status of these would bring more of them out into the open market. Right now, there is a reasonable fear that any publicly offered examples could be seized as counterfeits.
@sellitstore
The problems with the existence of these secret initial 40 unmarked strikes is:
In the end, I defy you to DISPROVE the existence of the Easter Bunny.
The burden of proof should not be on the person who doesn't believe in something that has never been seen but on the person proposing its existence.
Yes, no deep breath required. I appreciate @insider2 We've had our rows in the past, but it is all good fun. Just a couple of paizans banging heads over a dish of internet pasta and a glass of chianti.
@sellitstore asked: "So how do you know that one or more of the first 40 "unsigned" coins hasn't turned up or been certified?"
WHAT FIRST UNSIGNED COINS? I cannot comment on something that does not exist at the moment or up to now. Perhaps, I'll have a comment when one of the fantasy Proof strikes I cooked up for fun hits the market.
"You seem very sure of this. Have you been checking the edges on every jewelry piece that you have seen and just what percentage of extant 1907 HRs used in jewelry do you think you have documented? Do a Heritage search. There are quite a few jewelry pieces surviving, as they have always been in demand and worth more than melt. I think that these jewelry coins need to be examined more closely and perhaps an analysis of the gold in these could distinguish them from US mint products."
I guess you are inferring that the auction company is selling unmarked fake $20 struck outside the Mint using genuine dies. Good luck with your research as I'm not interested in the least in pursuing fantasy coins!
BTW, I'll give you this much: On many occasions in the past (two pertaining to coins) when I was totally sure of something it turned out I was not correct. For example, I was 100% sure Bernie would win the Democrat nomination. Unfortunately it was rigged.
"I have little doubt that there are a significant number of the 1907 $20 Omega HRs in hiding. Not the unsold ones, which may or may not still exist but those that were sold. The reason that I can claim this is that there is a good parallel in collectible US currency- the 1900 $10,000 Gold Certificate."
Not a good example. Apples/Oranges. I've brokered a deal for ten of these notes in the 1990's and kept one for myself. Unfortunately, I sold my PMG graded note to a dealer three years ago. These pieces are not counterfeits. They are more in line with the 1913 nickels.
"..."If the 1907 Omega HR counterfeit isn't pursued as a counterfeit by the authorities, auctions would offer them and perhaps the TPGs would start certifying them. I'm not advocating this but a change in the perception of legal status of these would bring more of them out into the open market. Right now, there is a reasonable fear that any publicly offered examples could be seized as counterfeits."
Read the thread! BTW, the demand for the $20 is such that more should be around than there is. Remember, it has been almost fifty years. Where are they. IMO, most melted.
Wow, heated discussions and I wasn't involved. I have provided new info, maybe small, but new. By now you know that my father represented Kiriaken and Papdeeous. I am sure I spelt it wrong. I am sure I posted in the past about the equipment in the press shop. I can assure no melting took place in that building because it was a furnace to work in in the first place, but there was a roller, a mill and an annealer, etc. The one worker was a mill man, the other a pree operator but they did everything between them. Next the junk yard with only a small parking lot between the shop had a gigantic furnace. They melted scrap metal. Now think of the three men who were all friends and all represented by my father. Where do u think the pesos came from? Russia...who melted metal everyday? Who had multi millions to fund this operation?
I'm unsure what you mean. Russians? Aye or nay?
Thanks you @jmlanzaf for reassuring me that I was not the only one confused by the post. I think TTTT is saying "no." For the life of me, I can't understand why he doesn't post in simple sentences, eg "I don't think the Russians had anything to do the Omega counterfeits because the engraver would have feared for his life if he added the Omega sign."
Indeed, what I'd like is a simple summary of what TTTT has said. I think anyone attempting to do so would discover a massive number of contradictions. For example, a year ago TTTT started with many confident assertions that 40 "perfect" counterfeits were sold ("The coins were authenticated and sold.") to the coins were sold as jewelry ("has anyone ever heard as coins being used as jewelry") to maybe they were given to friends ("they may have been given to very ,very close friends.") For a person with a self-proclaimed photographic memory, TTTT's claims certain wonder from one post to another...
Thank you forum. My film will be released to film festivals in about two weeks and the phone is ringing off the hooks. Had to meet with a local investigative reporter today and have to go to LA for press releases and prepublicity. Time is my enemy and all the free time I had to post is ending. As the terminator said, "I'll be back". The forum and the owners should be proud as to what has come out on these threads. At times testy, but overall nothing that some thick skin could not repair. I have my favorites and if the Production company goes forward, I will have a lot of say as to the creativity. Even adversaries provide great input. If any of you want to see me or know how my mind works, go to Zodiac News Network on YouTube. There are a dozen episodes and number 6 is my favorite. I think it sold the people in Hollywood to spend some money to check this doctor out in Tucson. They spent a lot of money to make this film.
Several times I have posted..burn one! I am not concerned with the results. It will not change my story in any way. Much of the info I posted was in the beginning, but far less as Bonanno got real serious and very careful. One has posted that there just were not enough Mexican peso coins. If so, I posted that at one point Bonanno drove around with sacks of them in the back of his car and gave them away as gifts. Why would he give away a coin that cost him less than $40 dollars if it could be made to bring in so much more? How would I know what he what he was doing behind closed doors as production issues came up. I was not part of that.
The most impressive man, to me, on this forum is Dcarr. He makes coins and I believe in my heart he knows he could make a Dcarr Omega. He would never go to jail or be a bad guy. All he has to do is put it in a plastic cover with Fake, counterfeit, for educational purposes only. He doesn't call it an Omega but a 1907 HR double eagle $20 with an omega symbol and tool marks. It does not need to be authenticated and he could sell them to coin shops like "hotcakes". It was done by amateurs and he is a pro. He is not counterfeiting a or committing a fraud. Every coin shop I have been to has told me they buy them because they know they will sell them at a profit. I personally hope he does. He hurts no one and could put his kids thru Harvard.
I have decided to go Western for my first interview as I am from Az. I just got my new Scully black on black floral embroidered western cut jacket. Got my embroidered western shirt from the cleaners. Still fit in Levi's. Just got to shine my boots and my dad's turquoise and silver authentic Indian made Bolo tie which now I wonder if it came from China. Last but least, got to get my western sterling silver and gold coin belt buckle that Joe Bonanno gave me on my 16th birthday and shine it up good. I told you I don't have an Omega, but that doesn't mean I don't have a Bonanno coin.
I'd like to quote my favorite Frank Sinatra song as it applies to this adventure. It starts with "And now the end is near" and ends with "I did it my way". As we say in Tucson "Via con dios mi amigos".
@totellthetruth said: "Thank you forum. My film will be released to film festivals in about two weeks and the phone is ringing off the hooks. Had to meet with a local investigative reporter today and have to go to LA for press releases and prepublicity. Time is my enemy and all the free time I had to post is ending. As the terminator said, "I'll be back"..."
"... The most impressive man, to me, on this forum is Dcarr. He makes coins and I believe in my heart he knows he could make a Dcarr Omega."
Well TTTT, I hope your movie is nominated for an Oscar next time!!! Stay Safe.
@dcarr I hope to see at least a silver HR on day. 2022 will be the 50th Anniversary + you could offer an example in gold limited to 40 pieces max.
Like I said earlier...Daniel Carr needs to make an omega overstike on whatever TTTT said was the original coin... a 50 peso? That would be awesome.
I want to reserve on now!
Well, just Love coins, period.
this post is worthless without pictures.
"How many times can a man turn his head and pretend he just doesn’t see?” - Bob Dylan
In the summer of 2008, Dr. Lawrence P. D’Antonio surfaced with claims that he had solved the Zodiac case by creating an amazing new technique for discovering hidden messages and images on the Zodiac letters. According to D’Antonio, these messages and images were planted by the infamous Zodiac suspect, Arthur Leigh Allen. D’Antonio said that he first came up with this discovery after watching the movie ZODIAC and staying awake for three days in a row. D’Antonio then posted his sensational claims on various Internet message boards. He claimed to be “working with” the SFPD and the FBI, and claimed that his “evidence” proved Allen’s guilt despite the overwhelming evidence of his innocence. D’Antonio repeatedly announced that he had discovered even more damning evidence against Allen and he repeatedly claimed that authorities were close to closing the case. However, as time passed, authorities dismissed D’Antonio’s claims and evidence. D’Antonio later ended his public campaign and his days as an amateur crime-fighter.
D’Antonio’s press releases stated that he was represented by Larry Garrison, the public relations man behind the next Zodiac publicity stunt. Garrison also represented a San Francisco real estate agent named Deborah Perez, who became the subject of worldwide attention when she called a press conference in April 2009 to declare that the Zodiac was her deceased stepfather Guy Ward Hendrickson. Accompanied by Kevin McLean, a former associate of famed attorney Melvin Belli, Perez told reporters that she first suspected her father was the Zodiac when she saw a sketch of the killer while watching a 2007 episode of the popular crime series AMERICA’S MOST WANTED. “I recognized the individual as my father… I researched the Zodiac killer, and to my surprise I found cards and letters that were in police custody that were written by my father or myself.” Perez claimed that she had written the now-infamous Zodiac letter sent to Melvin Belli in December 1969. Perez explained, “I was a child and just thought I was helping my father.”
Police met with Deborah Perez and apparently determined that her claims did not warrant further investigation. According to several sources, including true crime writer M. William Phelps, Perez had also claimed that she was the daughter of President John F. Kennedy. Perez eventually vanished from the glare of the spotlight but her brief appearance had further clouded the public perception of the unsolved mystery.
https://zodiackillerfacts.com/case-summary/
Why are you trying to make Carr's job harder? LOL
There's one part of Dr. D'Antonio's account that can be confirmed and agreed upon by all is his connection to his father and his father's connection to Joe Bonanno.
TTTT told us this story already but it's still good reading.
https://nytimes.com/1971/06/11/archives/the-case-of-the-f-b-i-man-and-bombing-of-the-mafia-the-case-of-the.html
To revive a long dead thread, did anyone happen to save this PDF which is no longer available:
http://www.chemgod.com/ebay3/I actually do have some information on the Omega Man.pdf
(Also not available on web.archive.org of that site)
Thanks
What happened? If anyone could provide context on this thread/deleted omega thread, that would be great.
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
I have a 35 page (!) pdf from 1-31-18 with what I think are TTTT's comments in the original Omega thread. I see where there are responses to posts by others but their posts are not included. I guess I just collected TTTT's contributions. While I think TTTT's comments were a crock, if you want a copy of this pdf pm me your email and I'll send it.
The story that just won't go away.
I still can't figure out what real motive TTTT had for even providing all this "stuff" to this Forum to begin with.
It's just like the Kennedy Assassination: everybody knows but nobody knows.
Anyway, I bit on this whole thing and still came away with nothing more than questions.
Pete
Is that the one I sent? I had compiled it in January 2018 and sent it to a few people. [See below]
That was my document. I changed hosting. I can email it to you if you pm me with an email address
A forum member with a psych background suggested (privately) it was part of his psychosis. He had some related facts and a delusion that sprung up around it.
TTTT's had a similar delusion relating to the Zodiac killer. If you recall, his last visit here was to tout a movie being made about his Zodiac research that was supposed to be coming out a few months later. I have yet to see any such movie.
I really enjoyed the story and it probably had elements of truth. But I’m not sure we’ll ever know how much was fever dreams.
People like this can be very persuasive.
Is this what you are looking for?
Yes, that's it.
Awww... you kept my document. We're going to be friends after all.
@jmlanzaf Yes, the document @habaraca is exactly what I have. So it's apparently what you sent me and I just retained it. You did yeoman's work on that file; it's 30 some pages long! And I am surely happy to give you credit for your work.
Thanks. I don't need credit but I just wanted to make sure we all had the same one.
I also have hundreds of pages of FBI files from a FOIA request. Bonnano was under constant surveillance. I find no evidence to support the story. They were aware of a number of criminal enterprises but there no mention of minting equipment or gold. There was something about smuggling in wheels of cheese that made me laugh.