Hey Rog, what a great discovery you made. Hard to believe you found a ledger documenting the chain of custody of the die. Imagine that, they walked right out the front door and went home with the engraver and you found it. Too bad it kinda hurt your credibility. Why did you take it down? Did you need to enlarge it or something like that? The whole forum knows about it Rog. They are watching you, not me. it is your honor, not mine on the line
You were asked several direct questions based on your comments in another thread. Please respond the questions. They were:
Please explain and produce authentication for your comments.
1. "too many people saw it." Who?
2. "The 1907 high relief die walked right out the front door of the US Mint." Who removed it? When?
3. (ditto) Describe the location of dies (complete and in process), and security at the Philadelphia Mint at the time they "walked right out the front door."
4. "to go to daddy's home." Where was this and into whose possession?
5. "No record of being returned and documented in writing on the chain of custody documentation." Post this document and it's source.
6. "Funny how the son of an engraver was directed by his father to sell the die to Bonanno." What engraver and what was the son's name?
7. "So much for all the experts who said a die set would never , ever leave the mint." What "experts" and when was this supposed to have happened?
Thanks.
I've removed nothing relating to this subject or dies or MCMVII HR double eagles.
Damn I took an Ambien 15 minutes ago. Terrible timing
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Roger you will be remembered for making a hugh discovery in the great Omega coin mystery. My congrats, too bad it will be overshadowed by your inability to swallow your pride and accept that you were wrong about me. Put it back up. You will be forgiven for this minor transgression. Put it back up roger, everyone knows now
RogerB , another has posted that he made the discovery and pulled it down. I owe you an apology. It is a fabulous discovery and I accused you of taking it down as it did not support your position. You had nothing to do with it and therefor I apologize to you. I was not sure you made the post initially, but was not patient to verify and I blew it. Once again I apologize.
@jmlanzaf said:
Let's not get distracted by the dies. The dies are beyond irrelevant to the alleged story. They did not need stolen dies from the Mint. And the dies they allegedly had from the Mint were useless and not used to strike the coins anyway.
If one considers the dies important, you will now have to figure out how the dies were acquired for all the other Omega fakes. Those fakes are different denominations and vastly different years so they could not have easily had the same source, especially as laid out by TTTTs.
Ignore the dies. They are a distraction.
I think the dies are of great importance. They set the crime in motion. Without their availability, the Omega fakes would never have been though of. As for the $3 Omega's, that's a different story, as far as anything I have read. Perhaps the engraver did those later.
Except you know all you are ever going to know about them - if they exist. There were dies from the Mint that were in bad shape. An artist was employed to make a new hub. End of story. There is nothing further that can be investigated as TTTT knows nothing about who stole the dies (although he hints at someone without naming them) and the crime took place 50 years before TTTT was born.
This is where the previous discussion got derailed. 4Ts stopped providing any new information and started baiting board members. Eventually, 4Ts got frustrated and had a melt down which caused the thread to be pulled.
I would think the one thing 4Ts should have learned from his 2 months in law enforcement is the advantage of directly and succinctly stating facts. But of course, if he's to get us to supply him new memories, he needs to bait us with innuendo so that we fill in the gaps...in the age-old tradition of carnival mind-readers.
@jmlanzaf said:
Let's not get distracted by the dies. The dies are beyond irrelevant to the alleged story. They did not need stolen dies from the Mint. And the dies they allegedly had from the Mint were useless and not used to strike the coins anyway.
If one considers the dies important, you will now have to figure out how the dies were acquired for all the other Omega fakes. Those fakes are different denominations and vastly different years so they could not have easily had the same source, especially as laid out by TTTTs.
Ignore the dies. They are a distraction.
I think the dies are of great importance. They set the crime in motion. Without their availability, the Omega fakes would never have been though of. As for the $3 Omega's, that's a different story, as far as anything I have read. Perhaps the engraver did those later.
Except you know all you are ever going to know about them - if they exist. There were dies from the Mint that were in bad shape. An artist was employed to make a new hub. End of story. There is nothing further that can be investigated as TTTT knows nothing about who stole the dies (although he hints at someone without naming them) and the crime took place 50 years before TTTT was born.
But that doesn't make it any less true. You are going into the hypocritical position of spreading untruths to try to prove your own point. Also going into ad hominem attack territory against TTTT and doesn't help your case.
I think the dies are of great importance. They set the crime in motion. Without their availability, the Omega fakes would never have been though of. As for the $3 Omega's, that's a different story, as far as anything I have read. Perhaps the engraver did those later.
Except you know all you are ever going to know about them - if they exist. There were dies from the Mint that were in bad shape. An artist was employed to make a new hub. End of story. There is nothing further that can be investigated as TTTT knows nothing about who stole the dies (although he hints at someone without naming them) and the crime took place 50 years before TTTT was born.
But that doesn't make it any less true. You are going into the hypocritical position of spreading untruths to try to prove your own point. Also going into ad hominem attack territory against TTTT and doesn't help your case.
My point with the dies is that they simply are not traceable and no further details can be elucidated as that crime took place way before 4T's was born and so no further details are forthcoming. Whether they existed or not, we know as much as we are ever going to know about them.
Trying to understand: how did the Omega 1907s enter the marketplace? If I assume they were made with Mexican gold coins as the raw material, the cost would have been around $50 per Double Eagle.
A few of you (including TTTT) insist on taking shots at each other and as a result another discussion on these coins has been closed.
Please cut the crap! There are still things that may eventually come out. Our old friend spends too much time defending himself. Don't give him something to reply to that is OFF TOPIC. Let his sarcastic posts fall on deaf ears.
If he does not wish to answer a DIRECT QUESTION, let it go - for now.
Additionally, No one here cares WHO believes TTTT's story, parts of it, or none of it. So, if you cannot add something worthwhile with the "big dogs" posting to unravel the story...
Unfortunately, there was a lot I wished to comment on in the closed thread and now I cannot. That's our (mine and your) loss!
@Insider2 ...time to start taking power naps at work during the day so you can get involved with the night-crew here on CU...4 T’s is a street guy...we work at night so get your rest today and come join in tonight
Just an observation - in comparing the quality of two counterfeit
coins mentioned in the posts, the Omega HR and the 1882 $3 gold,
it's like comparing a Rolls Royce with a Volkswagen.
One you needed to see the Omega to tell the coin was counterfeit,
and the other was so bad you didn't need to see the Omega on it
at all to know it was counterfeit.
Same 'Omega' mark maybe, but two totally, totally different
qualities of counterfeit US gold coins.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
@Insider2 You can make the comments here that you were going to make on the closed thread, couldn't you? We would like to hear them, especially if they are worthwhile, since there is much in these threads that isn't. We don't want nor need to lose your input.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
@sellitstore said: @Insider2 You can make the comments here that you were going to make on the closed thread, couldn't you? We would like to hear them, especially if they are worthwhile, since there is much in these threads that isn't. We don't want nor need to lose your input.
True, but it is much easier (also less time) to quote a post and comment. I'll try to go through the closed thread again and cut/paste but don't hold your breath.
Initially, there was some hope that a coherent explanation for a class of counterfeit coins might be produced. That was the purpose in asking for a summary of the original thread. As this and prior threads have expanded, it has become evident the primary “source” cannot substantiate claims and is not credible.
Therefore, further participation in this subject is pointless. Nothing has been gained beyond the destruction of numerous electrons.
@RogerB said:
Initially, there was some hope that a coherent explanation for a class of counterfeit coins might be produced. That was the purpose in asking for a summary of the original thread. As this and prior threads have expanded, it has become evident the primary “source” cannot substantiate claims and is not credible.
Therefore, further participation in this subject is POINTLESS. [I agree! with this]. Nothing has been gained beyond the destruction of numerous electrons.
So, I'll suggest that you just read TTTT's posts for a while and not comment. You have raised some great questions that AFAIK went unanswered. Hopefully you'll save up some more questions for later.
Unfortunately, much of his original story has been lost in the deleted threads. I only know of two or three members here who have been actually trying to weed out ANY TRUTH to this story with personal contact and PM's.
When I was 12 - I had a bike. I don't remember what color it was, but I had one. Around 14 I got a bike with gears - I don't remember if it was a 10 speed or 12 speed, and can't remember what color that one was. I can't even tell you if either was a Huffy, Mongoose, or Royce Union. But I know for certain I had those bikes. I also know I kissed a girl under the jungle gym around that time, and although I remember her name was Wendy, I can't tell you her last name, or her eye color, or what she was wearing. And I'm only pushing 50. My point....
I'm pretty sure the timeline is putting the dies to Bonanno around '67, the coin production in/around Late 67-69 and perhaps it all wrapping up 69-70. 4T would have been 12 when he saw the dies presented to Bonanno, 12-14 during coin production, and around 14-15 when it all wrapped up. Everyone is expecting him to remember technical details about coin dies, press tonnage, and gold % - he was about 12-15 through this whole thing. He can only tell us what he remembers with allowances for 50 years having passed. Unless he or his brothers can remember any other little details to narrow dates, searches, or anything, I don't think he CAN answer many of the other questions when it comes to specifics of the coining operation.
So where does that leave us? What can those of us who want to pursue this as far as we can to try to find details with what 4T has given us do?
1) In about 1967 a relative - possibly a son of an ex "prominent mint worker" brings dies to Bonanno. 4T believes this person was in his late 30's, early 40's, meaning born around 1925-1930. 4T also believes the mint employee gave or bequeathed these dies to the relative and told him the story of how they came into his possession. I can't remember a thing my father told me at 8 or 10 - and certainly he wouldn't have told me a story of stolen property for future benefit until I was at least, let's say a teenager. That would mean the mint employee would have had to live until at least approximately 1937-1942 let's call it to tell the tale to the son/relative. So... there are very few people at the mint in 1907 who would be in a position to somehow mask cancelling dies, who was there in 1907, who had a family, and who lived until 37-42. If Roger can somehow provide a list of possible names, maybe we can google them, and see if any fit this general description. Maybe there are descendants who heard family stories.
2) Breen - if Breen was running around authenticating Omega's as the real deal, does he have any personal paper archives somewhere, any way to trace that possible connection
3) The coins - someone is going to have to scan/analyze an Omega, an authentic 1907 Saint, and some Mexican 50 Peso's of the era (no date range known) but 1921-1947 all sell at bullion value, so they likely could have bought any of those dates without much premium.
4) After the coining operation was dismantled/crushed, 4T said: "After the excitement died down, there was very little conversation about the coins amongst us. That's the code. There was a small blip at the end of a tv news broadcast about federal agents roaming around Pappadeus junk yard about two weeks later. I did not see it, but it was big news amongst us. The news did not define the agency the agents worked for or what they were doing or looking for. An agent was silhouetted by a giant mountain of junk." - There were only 3 TV channels back then (and UHF) - Any way someone can try to find anything on this? If we had better dates - newspaper archives maybe?
4T - I believe your story that Bonanno had something to do with the Omega's. I believe you, your Brother(s), your Father all witnessed parts of this first hand, and heard lots from others involved. And I believe you are telling us what you remember as truth. I also believe after 50 years and some of it being 2nd hand to begin with - that some of the details are mushy and the coin/coinage parts may not make 100% sense on a message board of folks with huge coin/coinage knowledge. I don't blame you if we can't dot I's and cross T's at this point.
All I ask is everyone quit fighting. I want to know how this ends, and I'm sure many others do too. 4T - many of us want to narrow down dates, get better details, and try to prove one heck of a numismatic mystery, but we need your help too. If you and your brothers can re-read the threads, timelines, talk to anybody else who may still be around, anything.
I did the FOIA request last year on the coin press angle, but did it early in the thread and was off by a few years, and didn't have the details about the diesel engine and searching Nogales Senora at that time. If somehow we can narrow things down a bit, I can try again.
I was bummed this all went poof last year - I'm starting to feel bummed again as it appears it's headed in that direction again. If you don't know answers to our questions, just say so, but a story like this brings up dozens upon dozens of questions for us to help YOU get your story out.
Is there a possibility that he "Omega" three dollar was struck before the fake $20? Do you have any recollection of a Type 3 gold dollar produced by the mob?
Is there a possibility that he "Omega" three dollar was struck before the fake $20? Do you have any recollection of a Type 3 gold dollar produced by the mob?
Is there a possibility that he "Omega" three dollar was struck before the fake $20? Do you have any recollection of a Type 3 gold dollar produced by the mob?
It's not possible
OK, @jmlanzaf, you seem to know all about these coins so rather than post this: "It's not possible," PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY it's not possible.
I'm also curious as to where you were working and authenticating these pieces in 1972. Were you in the Treasury Dept? You see, I was given the credit for discovering the fake $3 was also "signed" with an "Omega" and that it was connected in some way to the counterfeit High Reliefs! So, please be kind enough to let all of us know what you based your strong opinion on. Otherwise, your comment is just adding conjectural nonsense to further pollute this discussion!
Is there a possibility that he "Omega" three dollar was struck before the fake $20? Do you have any recollection of a Type 3 gold dollar produced by the mob?
It's not possible
OK, @jmlanzaf, you seem to know all about these coins so rather than post this: "It's not possible," PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY it's not possible.
I'm also curious as to where you were working and authenticating these pieces in 1972. Were you in the Treasury Dept? You see, I was given the credit for discovering the fake $3 was also "signed" with an "Omega" and that it was connected in some way to the counterfeit High Reliefs! So, please be kind enough to let all of us know what you based your strong opinion on. Otherwise, your comment is just adding conjectural nonsense to further pollute this discussion!
Is there a possibility that he "Omega" three dollar was struck before the fake $20? Do you have any recollection of a Type 3 gold dollar produced by the mob?
It's not possible
OK, @jmlanzaf, you seem to know all about these coins so rather than post this: "It's not possible," PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY it's not possible.
I'm also curious as to where you were working and authenticating these pieces in 1972. Were you in the Treasury Dept? You see, I was given the credit for discovering the fake $3 was also "signed" with an "Omega" and that it was connected in some way to the counterfeit High Reliefs! So, please be kind enough to let all of us know what you based your strong opinion on. Otherwise, your comment is just adding conjectural nonsense to further pollute this discussion!
Because 4T's already told us that the Omega was added to the $20s at the insistence of his father to prevent counterfeiting charges.
@FredWeinberg said:
Just an observation - in comparing the quality of two counterfeit
coins mentioned in the posts, the Omega HR and the 1882 $3 gold,
it's like comparing a Rolls Royce with a Volkswagen.
One you needed to see the Omega to tell the coin was counterfeit,
and the other was so bad you didn't need to see the Omega on it
at all to know it was counterfeit.
Same 'Omega' mark maybe, but two totally, totally different
qualities of counterfeit US gold coins.
This is interesting. I wonder why that would be. The Omega HR should have been the harder coin to manufacture bye a wide margin
MY ORIGINAL QUESTION TO TTTT: "Is there a possibility that he "Omega" three dollar was struck before the fake $20? Do you have any recollection of a Type 3 gold dollar produced by the mob?
My response to this "extraordinary" reply indicating a great amount of specific knowledge about the "Omega" counterfeit $3 Princess coins:
OK, you seem to know all about these coins so rather than post this: "It's not possible," PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY it's not possible. I'm also curious as to where you were working and authenticating these pieces in 1972. Were you in the Treasury Dept?"
Now this reply from @jmlanzaf: "Because 4T's already told us that the Omega was added to the $20s at the insistence of his father to prevent counterfeiting charges."
UNFORTUNATELY, again IMHO, we have an instance of clouding up this discussion with comments that have absolutely NOTHING to do with my question to TTTT about the $3 "Omega" fake being made before or after the HR $20!
So I'll ask again...@jmlanzaf Do you have any information to determine if the $3 fake was produced before the $20? You have posted above that "It's not possible." What do you base this on - your personal experience, hearsay, personal research, FOI files, inside knowledge? Thanks.
@FredWeinberg said:
Just an observation - in comparing the quality of two counterfeit
coins mentioned in the posts, the Omega HR and the 1882 $3 gold,
it's like comparing a Rolls Royce with a Volkswagen.
One you needed to see the Omega to tell the coin was counterfeit,
and the other was so bad you didn't need to see the Omega on it
at all to know it was counterfeit.
Same 'Omega' mark maybe, but two totally, totally different
qualities of counterfeit US gold coins.
This is interesting. I wonder why that would be. The Omega HR should have been the harder coin to manufacture bye a wide margin
Very interesting indeed, perhaps the $3 was made before the HR. Perhaps, no one saw the little "signature" because the $3 was considered such a "crude, off color, across-the-room-fake" that no one bothered to examine it closely.
A few Omega HRs were struck from the original die(s) and the bulk from dies copied from the original, using a reduction lathe in reverse to make plasters, then reducing to make dies. The $3s came later, after the operation was transferred to Mr.Bs former organization, and was an attempt to continue to profit from the lucrative 1970s counterfeit gold coin market. It wasn't nearly as lucrative as the 1907HRs due to poorer quality. These dies were presumably engraved by Frenchy or another engraver, without the benefit of reproducing a genuine item mechanically, resulting in poor quality.
Mr. Bs original hope seems to be to use the original die to produce coins that were indistinguishable from the originals. It was only after he purchased the die that he was informed that it wouldn't be usable for many strikes. That's probably when he got the idea to copy it. Perhaps he could have just used a genuine coin but he had purchased this die and could probably get a better copy from it as it wouldn't have the defects of a coin that would need to be eliminated.
My question would concern the reverse die. This is not a question that I would expect TTTT to answer as he has told us what he remembers and that seems to indicate one die, presumably the obverse, was purchased. But that original purchase might have included two dies, obverse and reverse, otherwise a reverse die would have had to be made. TTTT wasn't there and can only testify as to what info was told to him.
Was this reverse purchased with the obverse die or was it made from a genuine coin, or? What do our experts think?
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
"A few Omega HRs were struck from the original die(s) and the bulk from dies copied from the original, using a reduction lathe in reverse to make plasters, then reducing to make dies. The $3s came later, after the operation was transferred to Mr.Bs former organization, and was an attempt to continue to profit from the lucrative 1970s counterfeit gold coin market. It wasn't nearly as lucrative as the 1907HRs due to poorer quality. These dies were presumably engraved by Frenchy or another engraver, without the benefit of reproducing a genuine item mechanically, resulting in poor quality."
Mr. Bs original hope seems to be to use the original die to produce coins that were indistinguishable from the originals. It was only after he purchased the die that he was informed that it wouldn't be usable for many strikes. That's probably when he got the idea to copy it. Perhaps he could have just used a genuine coin but he had purchased this die and could probably get a better copy from it as it wouldn't have the defects of a coin that would need to be eliminated.
My question would concern the reverse die. This is not a question that I would expect TTTT to answer as he has told us what he remembers and that seems to indicate one die, presumably the obverse, was purchased. But that original purchase might have included two dies, obverse and reverse, otherwise a reverse die would have had to be made. Was this reverse purchased with the obverse die or was it made from a genuine coin, or? What do our experts think?"
Were you a poster in the ORIGINAL "Omega" discussion? Please refresh my memory. Where did this info about an "original" and "copy die" come from? Is this correct...TTTT stated that a genuine HR die pair was obtained from the Mint (either dumped or smuggled out) and a few coins were struck before it was ruined and a copy die was made from it which struck the bulk of the fake $20's? Then the $3 were struck.
Here is the problem as I see it. So far, all we have is a plausible "STORY." Absolutely NOTHING has been verified yet with the aid of TTTT, the truth of his story may come out eventually. All we have are the coins themselves and I'm working on a chronology of when I detected each of many gold fakes (including the two "Omegas") seen at the Certification Service that MAY refute a bunch of misinformation.
It's too bad all the conjecture in TTTT's discussions has been introduced as PROVEN FACT such as what you have posted concerning the dies. This "story" is not finished and TTTT may have provided an interesting bit of numismatic history about these fakes. Hopefully, what has been already posted from former threads can be distilled here and all of us can "play nice" so the thread will stay open so TTTT and other members will continue to participate.
@Insider2 said:
MY ORIGINAL QUESTION TO TTTT: "Is there a possibility that he "Omega" three dollar was struck before the fake $20? Do you have any recollection of a Type 3 gold dollar produced by the mob?
My response to this "extraordinary" reply indicating a great amount of specific knowledge about the "Omega" counterfeit $3 Princess coins:
OK, you seem to know all about these coins so rather than post this: "It's not possible," PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY it's not possible. I'm also curious as to where you were working and authenticating these pieces in 1972. Were you in the Treasury Dept?"
Now this reply from @jmlanzaf: "Because 4T's already told us that the Omega was added to the $20s at the insistence of his father to prevent counterfeiting charges."
UNFORTUNATELY, again IMHO, we have an instance of clouding up this discussion with comments that have absolutely NOTHING to do with my question to TTTT about the $3 "Omega" fake being made before or after the HR $20!
So I'll ask again...@jmlanzaf Do you have any information to determine if the $3 fake was produced before the $20? You have posted above that "It's not possible." What do you base this on - your personal experience, hearsay, personal research, FOI files, inside knowledge? Thanks.
Nothing other than my absolute trust in Dr. D's credibility.
As to this question: "Was this reverse purchased with the obverse die or was it made from a genuine coin, or?"
To the best of my knowledge, VIRTUALLY EVERY fake gold coin seen in the market after 1972 (when I became involved) and I suspect even those appearing in the late 1960's were DIE STRUCK counterfeits produced from transfer dies. This in spite of the fact that the "EX-Pert" coin authenticators' of the day (except for Charles Hoskins) were publishing and teaching that the gold coins were CAST COUNTERFEITS!
Any NONSENSE about hand-engraved gold dies is pure BS!
To be totally honest, I believe I saw a few cast gold pieces (dollars and Territorials) so I figure perhaps a dozen cast fake gold coins vs many thousands of struck fakes in the past fifty years.
The Royal Mint was making excellent transfer dies for demonstration and enforcement purposes from coins in the latter 19th century, as were a few counterfeiters. At least one version of a two-headed Morgan dollar is shown on the USpatterns.com web site.
@Insider2 Yes, I participated in the original thread and don't recall TTTT making reference to a die pair. I could be wrong but are you sure that you are not and just assumed the "pair" part? That's why I inquire about the reverse die.
I don't understand your confusion on the original die(s) and copy made from it. Do we really have a different understanding of what TTTT has said? Mr. B bought an original and made a copy from it, didn't he?
I have previously stated that what we have is a working theory, not established and confirmed fact by any means, and I continue to hold that view.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
I recall 4T referencing 'two ' clumps, pieces of metal.
What we have is not merely a working theory, but the only theory as to production.
Most graciously, 4T has given the board a start. I hope he continues.
"I was present when a man produced to my father two chunks of metal each about the size of the head of a small sledge hammer. He called them transfer or production die."
He has referred to "Dies" or "Two" a few times, but at times he also typed "Die" singularly (Perhaps meaning die set/pair).
I am pretty sure the original dies bought was a set (We had some discussion in last year's thread about the possibility of the collar - whether that was included, or made afterwards).
Those with Omega's would really need to study the lettered edge on these coins for clues, the thread poofed before anyone could report any findings.
@StrikeOutXXX said:
"I was present when a man produced to my father two chunks of metal each about the size of the head of a small sledge hammer. He called them transfer or production die."
He has referred to "Dies" or "Two" a few times, but at times he also typed "Die" singularly (Perhaps meaning die set/pair).
I am pretty sure the original dies bought was a set (We had some discussion in last year's thread about the possibility of the collar - whether that was included, or made afterwards).
Those with Omega's would really need to study the lettered edge on these coins for clues, the thread poofed before anyone could report any findings.
I will post images of the collars when I get the chance. I'll need to crack the coin out to do it.
@RogerB said:
The Royal Mint was making excellent transfer dies for demonstration and enforcement purposes from coins in the latter 19th century, as were a few counterfeiters. At least one version of a two-headed Morgan dollar is shown on the USpatterns.com web site.
I thought that Pinches made those dies. I may be wrong.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@StrikeOutXXX Thanks for the clarification. I do remember some discussion of the collar in the original thread, but nothing about obverse and reverse dies.
The Omega is on the reverse, so we know that the reverse die was copied and artist signed but was the tooling on the obverse die done to remove rust and the original die used to produce the 20,000, or was the obverse die copied, too, with the corrections being done to the plaster model? Excuse me if I've forgotten these details or was never clear on them a year ago.
Collector and dealer in obsolete currency. Always buying all obsolete bank notes and scrip.
@sellitstore said: @StrikeOutXXX Thanks for the clarification. I do remember some discussion of the collar in the original thread, but nothing about obverse and reverse dies.
The Omega is on the reverse, so we know that the reverse die was copied and artist signed but was the tooling on the obverse die done to remove rust and the original die used to produce the 20,000, or was the obverse die copied, too, with the corrections being done to the plaster model? Excuse me if I've forgotten these details or was never clear on them a year ago.
No Authenticator that I know has ever seen one of the 30 to 50 pieces allegedly struck from original, U.S. Mint made dies that allegedly progressively failed during this short striking run.
Every "Omega" counterfeit seen by us, wherever and whenever they were struck, was struck from two copy dies and a copied segmented collar. I make no allegations as to how these copy dies or the copied collar were made. There are various techniques that have been used by various counterfeiters at various times and places with varying success. That said, as counterfeits go these are high quality counterfeits.
There is no proven connection between the operation that made the "Omega" $20's and any other "Omega" counterfeit. It is possible that the "Omega" marks were created on different dies by one individual who worked for two or more different operations at two or more different times. The high quality of the "Omega" $20 counterfeits indicated that they were made by a skilled counterfeiter with experience at his trade. We do not know what other counterfeits he made before or after the "Omega" $20 operation. Anything else is speculation.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Opps, sorry ..hit the post button by accident. History has a way of repeating itself and another post was removed due to someone',s bad behavior
Skip is very happy I came back and wants me to keep posting, we will see.
Try and remember that I am repeating what I saw and what I heard. I keep getting attacked by disbelievers primarily by what I heard. I am only the messenger, please quit shooting me, I get testy. A young man came to my fathers office with die and a story. For all I know, he may have bought the die on Amazon and made his story up to help sell them. I know JB did some background on this man and I believe to the highest degree of probability that he was the son of a prominent mint worker. How he got the die and how his father got them is his story. They may have been procured in a dishonest way and he didn't want to soil his fathers honor and told us what he did. Got it! What is of most importance here is that almost all of the experts here do not believe mint die could have ever left the mint and there is no record of any stolen or missing. Fazzari also believed that. The document that Kbbppl produced blows that out of the window. That document showed that a die set were checked out of the mint by an engraver to take home. That is a critical find. It does not have to be the right die, nor the right year, nor a dbl eagle. Die were permitted and did leave the mint. No one knows what that engraver did with or to those die he took home. It needs to be investigated
Both Fazzari and I agree, my story is good for the Omega, collectors, buyers etc. The interest in the coin has gone way up. People, including me want one and they are available. The have a historical value and are going for more than the spot price of gold. That is a great accomplishment. Forum members have gotten one and forum members want one. I have gotten a lot of thank yous, that means it has either answered some questions or brought some closure to people who needed it and I am very happy for them. I get NO MONEY for coming here. I had no agenda other than my friends asking me to tell the world what I knew. I did not sell it to a magazine or author, nothing. I had a bad health scare and my time is limited, why not share this story to the people who could do the most with it...you guys. It is only because of my work in the Zodiac murder mystery and the show on YouTube produced by my neighbor...Zodiac News Network that led to a movie deal. I went on youtube to show the world 9 years of work for free. Why? Because the world deserves to know. I told them this story and hopefully the world will learn about the Omega coin. It is your passion, your enthusiasm and your history.
I knew nothing about coins, my father had his children at the office to see something really neat, really cool. I do not believe Bonanno had any thought about making coins when he came to look at the die for sale. He was a very rich man who is approached often by people wanting to sell very valuable items, but he is a mobster and is under 24 hour surveillance. He cannot buy anything that is stolen and then caught with it. Until he actually took possession, he was just a looker. Remember, he put this man up in a very expensive hotel for a few days at his expense to have an expert look at them and then to discuss the consequences of taking possession. It was my fathers impression that it would be very difficult to pursue stolen property if the story was true. I do not think any idea of punching out fakes arose until the expert said they were still usable. There was a lot of surprise and questions at that time. The expert repeated that they cold make coins on a limited basis and then probably collapse due to their age and that they were used. This is not hearsay, I was there. I did not witness the sale or even know about it until Bonanno came by for dinner a short time later. We had a set of Encyclopedia Britannica and he asked one of us to look up coin pressing and read it outloud. No one knows when the idea of trying to make coins occurred. If someone thinks he was making other coins prior, I would never accept that without absolute proof. This was all new to him and he knew as much as I...absolutely nothing. He had an awful lot of money and a collectors item.
Think about this. I do not believe those die or any die were ever destroyed. I believe they are out there. My brother and I both lamented that we wished we had an Omega. Fazzari agreed. After speaking with him., I thought about all I have learned and who is a true expert here and who is capable of what. It then dawned on me. How do I know that I would be purchasing a genuine fake Omega or a fake, fake Omega. I believe DCarr is absolutely capable of punching out a Dcarr Omega. He has the equipment, the experience, and the knowledge. We all know how to make a coin. Why couldn't he buy a real 1907, reverse engineer it, buy a bullion dbl eagle so he would have the right gold and make his own omega after adding a few tool marks and an omega sign. The omegas are going for $3000 plus. Bullion coin is spot. Make a thousand and he's in the money. Doesn't need to perfect his Italian accent. How about the person who has the die. Why not punch a few more out?
Lastly, it has suggested the only way to disprove this story is to destroy an omega and analyze the metal content. How do I know that Bonanno continued to use Mexican $50 dollar pesos? Some one posted that there just wasn't enough or they would have been hard to get. Not in the beginning, but I never had anything to do with production and any changes or refinements, nor was I ever told. He was an amateur, but I am sure he learned quickly and made changes to keep the production going. Maybe he ordered his own gold? How would I know. If you think that is ridiculous, please feel free to ruin an Omega and make your claim only to have the experts pounce on you as to what I just said.
@totellthetruth said:
Opps, sorry ..hit the post button by accident. History has a way of repeating itself and another post was removed due to someone',s bad behavior
Skip is very happy I came back and wants me to keep posting, we will see.
Try and remember that I am repeating what I saw and what I heard. I keep getting attacked by disbelievers primarily by what I heard. I am only the messenger, please quit shooting me, I get testy. A young man came to my fathers office with die and a story. For all I know, he may have bought the die on Amazon and made his story up to help sell them. I know JB did some background on this man and I believe to the highest degree of probability that he was the son of a prominent mint worker. How he got the die and how his father got them is his story. They may have been procured in a dishonest way and he didn't want to soil his fathers honor and told us what he did. Got it! What is of most importance here is that almost all of the experts here do not believe mint die could have ever left the mint and there is no record of any stolen or missing. Fazzari also believed that. The document that Kbbppl produced blows that out of the window. That document showed that a die set were checked out of the mint by an engraver to take home. That is a critical find. It does not have to be the right die, nor the right year, nor a dbl eagle. Die were permitted and did leave the mint. No one knows what that engraver did with or to those die he took home. It needs to be investigated
Both Fazzari and I agree, my story is good for the Omega, collectors, buyers etc. The interest in the coin has gone way up. People, including me want one and they are available. The have a historical value and are going for more than the spot price of gold. That is a great accomplishment. Forum members have gotten one and forum members want one. I have gotten a lot of thank yous, that means it has either answered some questions or brought some closure to people who needed it and I am very happy for them. I get NO MONEY for coming here. I had no agenda other than my friends asking me to tell the world what I knew. I did not sell it to a magazine or author, nothing. I had a bad health scare and my time is limited, why not share this story to the people who could do the most with it...you guys. It is only because of my work in the Zodiac murder mystery and the show on YouTube produced by my neighbor...Zodiac News Network that led to a movie deal. I went on youtube to show the world 9 years of work for free. Why? Because the world deserves to know. I told them this story and hopefully the world will learn about the Omega coin. It is your passion, your enthusiasm and your history.
I knew nothing about coins, my father had his children at the office to see something really neat, really cool. I do not believe Bonanno had any thought about making coins when he came to look at the die for sale. He was a very rich man who is approached often by people wanting to sell very valuable items, but he is a mobster and is under 24 hour surveillance. He cannot buy anything that is stolen and then caught with it. Until he actually took possession, he was just a looker. Remember, he put this man up in a very expensive hotel for a few days at his expense to have an expert look at them and then to discuss the consequences of taking possession. It was my fathers impression that it would be very difficult to pursue stolen property if the story was true. I do not think any idea of punching out fakes arose until the expert said they were still usable. There was a lot of surprise and questions at that time. The expert repeated that they cold make coins on a limited basis and then probably collapse due to their age and that they were used. This is not hearsay, I was there. I did not witness the sale or even know about it until Bonanno came by for dinner a short time later. We had a set of Encyclopedia Britannica and he asked one of us to look up coin pressing and read it outloud. No one knows when the idea of trying to make coins occurred. If someone thinks he was making other coins prior, I would never accept that without absolute proof. This was all new to him and he knew as much as I...absolutely nothing. He had an awful lot of money and a collectors item.
Think about this. I do not believe those die or any die were ever destroyed. I believe they are out there. My brother and I both lamented that we wished we had an Omega. Fazzari agreed. After speaking with him., I thought about all I have learned and who is a true expert here and who is capable of what. It then dawned on me. How do I know that I would be purchasing a genuine fake Omega or a fake, fake Omega. I believe DCarr is absolutely capable of punching out a Dcarr Omega. He has the equipment, the experience, and the knowledge. We all know how to make a coin. Why couldn't he buy a real 1907, reverse engineer it, buy a bullion dbl eagle so he would have the right gold and make his own omega after adding a few tool marks and an omega sign. The omegas are going for $3000 plus. Bullion coin is spot. Make a thousand and he's in the money. Doesn't need to perfect his Italian accent. How about the person who has the die. Why not punch a few more out?
Lastly, it has suggested the only way to disprove this story is to destroy an omega and analyze the metal content. How do I know that Bonanno continued to use Mexican $50 dollar pesos? Some one posted that there just wasn't enough or they would have been hard to get. Not in the beginning, but I never had anything to do with production and any changes or refinements, nor was I ever told. He was an amateur, but I am sure he learned quickly and made changes to keep the production going. Maybe he ordered his own gold? How would I know. If you think that is ridiculous, please feel free to ruin an Omega and make your claim only to have the experts pounce on you as to what I just said.
Please try not to be bothered by those who doubt you and/or disagree with you. It distracts you from the discussion and gets you nowhere. Besides, nearly anything that anyone posts Is subject to disagreement from someone.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There are various non-destructive testing methods that give you a very precise reading of the contents without harming the object. I for one would love to see the test results on an "Omega" $20.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
There are many die markers on the vintage "Omega" $20's that could be used to spot a modern copy of it. You don't think that Authenticators publish everything, do you?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I agree, but remember, these coins are fake and I doubt anyone is going to pay to have an authenticator say "yes it is an Omega" I believe a coin shop would just look for the omega sign and tool marks, weight etc. I buy bullion for my retirement account and not one coin was authenticated. I don't think I would pay that fee to distinquish a Bonanno Omega from a theoretical DCarr Omega. I am interested in buying a Bonanno omega, I will most likelyNOT have it authenticated and only hope I got what I wanted. If it is not a Bonanno, what am I going to say...hey you sold me a fake?
By the way, The historians and I photographed the shop building over the weekend. It started out as a US Marine Corp Quonset hut sold as surplus. It was part of a body shop and was updated over the years. One thing that has always stuck in my head was how hot it got in that building from May to October with only a swamp cooler. It was an oven and I could not have ever worked in that building. I can tell you it did not take long for aprons and gloves to come off. I am sure many of the coins were touched by one or both of these mens bare hands. Only after produced were they handled by others in an a/c cooled room and wrapped. From that point out, there were probably always in a plastic wrap or handled by people with gloves. I am sure there ae many Omegas that have never left it's package. May sound stupid, but I'll bet there are fingerprints out there somewhere. Fingerprints deteriorate if exposed but some are protected. Find a print, maybe one worker had a record. Sounds dumb . but I remember Bonanno talking about it and my father saying "what can you do".
Comments
Hey Rog, what a great discovery you made. Hard to believe you found a ledger documenting the chain of custody of the die. Imagine that, they walked right out the front door and went home with the engraver and you found it. Too bad it kinda hurt your credibility. Why did you take it down? Did you need to enlarge it or something like that? The whole forum knows about it Rog. They are watching you, not me. it is your honor, not mine on the line
You were asked several direct questions based on your comments in another thread. Please respond the questions. They were:
Please explain and produce authentication for your comments.
1. "too many people saw it." Who?
2. "The 1907 high relief die walked right out the front door of the US Mint." Who removed it? When?
3. (ditto) Describe the location of dies (complete and in process), and security at the Philadelphia Mint at the time they "walked right out the front door."
4. "to go to daddy's home." Where was this and into whose possession?
5. "No record of being returned and documented in writing on the chain of custody documentation." Post this document and it's source.
6. "Funny how the son of an engraver was directed by his father to sell the die to Bonanno." What engraver and what was the son's name?
7. "So much for all the experts who said a die set would never , ever leave the mint." What "experts" and when was this supposed to have happened?
Thanks.
I've removed nothing relating to this subject or dies or MCMVII HR double eagles.
Put it back up Roger
Damn I took an Ambien 15 minutes ago. Terrible timing
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Answer the questions, TTTT.
Roger you will be remembered for making a hugh discovery in the great Omega coin mystery. My congrats, too bad it will be overshadowed by your inability to swallow your pride and accept that you were wrong about me. Put it back up. You will be forgiven for this minor transgression. Put it back up roger, everyone knows now
RogerB , another has posted that he made the discovery and pulled it down. I owe you an apology. It is a fabulous discovery and I accused you of taking it down as it did not support your position. You had nothing to do with it and therefor I apologize to you. I was not sure you made the post initially, but was not patient to verify and I blew it. Once again I apologize.
Except you know all you are ever going to know about them - if they exist. There were dies from the Mint that were in bad shape. An artist was employed to make a new hub. End of story. There is nothing further that can be investigated as TTTT knows nothing about who stole the dies (although he hints at someone without naming them) and the crime took place 50 years before TTTT was born.
This is where the previous discussion got derailed. 4Ts stopped providing any new information and started baiting board members. Eventually, 4Ts got frustrated and had a melt down which caused the thread to be pulled.
I would think the one thing 4Ts should have learned from his 2 months in law enforcement is the advantage of directly and succinctly stating facts. But of course, if he's to get us to supply him new memories, he needs to bait us with innuendo so that we fill in the gaps...in the age-old tradition of carnival mind-readers.
But that doesn't make it any less true. You are going into the hypocritical position of spreading untruths to try to prove your own point. Also going into ad hominem attack territory against TTTT and doesn't help your case.
>
My point with the dies is that they simply are not traceable and no further details can be elucidated as that crime took place way before 4T's was born and so no further details are forthcoming. Whether they existed or not, we know as much as we are ever going to know about them.
Trying to understand: how did the Omega 1907s enter the marketplace? If I assume they were made with Mexican gold coins as the raw material, the cost would have been around $50 per Double Eagle.
A few of you (including TTTT) insist on taking shots at each other and as a result another discussion on these coins has been closed.
Please cut the crap! There are still things that may eventually come out. Our old friend spends too much time defending himself. Don't give him something to reply to that is OFF TOPIC. Let his sarcastic posts fall on deaf ears.
If he does not wish to answer a DIRECT QUESTION, let it go - for now.
Additionally, No one here cares WHO believes TTTT's story, parts of it, or none of it. So, if you cannot add something worthwhile with the "big dogs" posting to unravel the story...
Unfortunately, there was a lot I wished to comment on in the closed thread and now I cannot. That's our (mine and your) loss!
@Insider2 ...time to start taking power naps at work during the day so you can get involved with the night-crew here on CU...4 T’s is a street guy...we work at night so get your rest today and come join in tonight
Just an observation - in comparing the quality of two counterfeit
coins mentioned in the posts, the Omega HR and the 1882 $3 gold,
it's like comparing a Rolls Royce with a Volkswagen.
One you needed to see the Omega to tell the coin was counterfeit,
and the other was so bad you didn't need to see the Omega on it
at all to know it was counterfeit.
Same 'Omega' mark maybe, but two totally, totally different
qualities of counterfeit US gold coins.
@Insider2 You can make the comments here that you were going to make on the closed thread, couldn't you? We would like to hear them, especially if they are worthwhile, since there is much in these threads that isn't. We don't want nor need to lose your input.
True, but it is much easier (also less time) to quote a post and comment. I'll try to go through the closed thread again and cut/paste but don't hold your breath.
Initially, there was some hope that a coherent explanation for a class of counterfeit coins might be produced. That was the purpose in asking for a summary of the original thread. As this and prior threads have expanded, it has become evident the primary “source” cannot substantiate claims and is not credible.
Therefore, further participation in this subject is pointless. Nothing has been gained beyond the destruction of numerous electrons.
So, I'll suggest that you just read TTTT's posts for a while and not comment. You have raised some great questions that AFAIK went unanswered. Hopefully you'll save up some more questions for later.
Unfortunately, much of his original story has been lost in the deleted threads. I only know of two or three members here who have been actually trying to weed out ANY TRUTH to this story with personal contact and PM's.
When I was 12 - I had a bike. I don't remember what color it was, but I had one. Around 14 I got a bike with gears - I don't remember if it was a 10 speed or 12 speed, and can't remember what color that one was. I can't even tell you if either was a Huffy, Mongoose, or Royce Union. But I know for certain I had those bikes. I also know I kissed a girl under the jungle gym around that time, and although I remember her name was Wendy, I can't tell you her last name, or her eye color, or what she was wearing. And I'm only pushing 50. My point....
I'm pretty sure the timeline is putting the dies to Bonanno around '67, the coin production in/around Late 67-69 and perhaps it all wrapping up 69-70. 4T would have been 12 when he saw the dies presented to Bonanno, 12-14 during coin production, and around 14-15 when it all wrapped up. Everyone is expecting him to remember technical details about coin dies, press tonnage, and gold % - he was about 12-15 through this whole thing. He can only tell us what he remembers with allowances for 50 years having passed. Unless he or his brothers can remember any other little details to narrow dates, searches, or anything, I don't think he CAN answer many of the other questions when it comes to specifics of the coining operation.
So where does that leave us? What can those of us who want to pursue this as far as we can to try to find details with what 4T has given us do?
1) In about 1967 a relative - possibly a son of an ex "prominent mint worker" brings dies to Bonanno. 4T believes this person was in his late 30's, early 40's, meaning born around 1925-1930. 4T also believes the mint employee gave or bequeathed these dies to the relative and told him the story of how they came into his possession. I can't remember a thing my father told me at 8 or 10 - and certainly he wouldn't have told me a story of stolen property for future benefit until I was at least, let's say a teenager. That would mean the mint employee would have had to live until at least approximately 1937-1942 let's call it to tell the tale to the son/relative. So... there are very few people at the mint in 1907 who would be in a position to somehow mask cancelling dies, who was there in 1907, who had a family, and who lived until 37-42. If Roger can somehow provide a list of possible names, maybe we can google them, and see if any fit this general description. Maybe there are descendants who heard family stories.
2) Breen - if Breen was running around authenticating Omega's as the real deal, does he have any personal paper archives somewhere, any way to trace that possible connection
3) The coins - someone is going to have to scan/analyze an Omega, an authentic 1907 Saint, and some Mexican 50 Peso's of the era (no date range known) but 1921-1947 all sell at bullion value, so they likely could have bought any of those dates without much premium.
4) After the coining operation was dismantled/crushed, 4T said: "After the excitement died down, there was very little conversation about the coins amongst us. That's the code. There was a small blip at the end of a tv news broadcast about federal agents roaming around Pappadeus junk yard about two weeks later. I did not see it, but it was big news amongst us. The news did not define the agency the agents worked for or what they were doing or looking for. An agent was silhouetted by a giant mountain of junk." - There were only 3 TV channels back then (and UHF) - Any way someone can try to find anything on this? If we had better dates - newspaper archives maybe?
4T - I believe your story that Bonanno had something to do with the Omega's. I believe you, your Brother(s), your Father all witnessed parts of this first hand, and heard lots from others involved. And I believe you are telling us what you remember as truth. I also believe after 50 years and some of it being 2nd hand to begin with - that some of the details are mushy and the coin/coinage parts may not make 100% sense on a message board of folks with huge coin/coinage knowledge. I don't blame you if we can't dot I's and cross T's at this point.
All I ask is everyone quit fighting. I want to know how this ends, and I'm sure many others do too. 4T - many of us want to narrow down dates, get better details, and try to prove one heck of a numismatic mystery, but we need your help too. If you and your brothers can re-read the threads, timelines, talk to anybody else who may still be around, anything.
I did the FOIA request last year on the coin press angle, but did it early in the thread and was off by a few years, and didn't have the details about the diesel engine and searching Nogales Senora at that time. If somehow we can narrow things down a bit, I can try again.
I was bummed this all went poof last year - I'm starting to feel bummed again as it appears it's headed in that direction again. If you don't know answers to our questions, just say so, but a story like this brings up dozens upon dozens of questions for us to help YOU get your story out.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
@totellthetruth
Is there a possibility that he "Omega" three dollar was struck before the fake $20? Do you have any recollection of a Type 3 gold dollar produced by the mob?
It's not possible
I like this so much that I'm looking around for an Omega coin now.
I hope this thread doesn't get closed.
My Saint Set
OK, @jmlanzaf, you seem to know all about these coins so rather than post this: "It's not possible," PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY it's not possible.
I'm also curious as to where you were working and authenticating these pieces in 1972. Were you in the Treasury Dept? You see, I was given the credit for discovering the fake $3 was also "signed" with an "Omega" and that it was connected in some way to the counterfeit High Reliefs! So, please be kind enough to let all of us know what you based your strong opinion on. Otherwise, your comment is just adding conjectural nonsense to further pollute this discussion!
What he said...me too.
Because 4T's already told us that the Omega was added to the $20s at the insistence of his father to prevent counterfeiting charges.
This is interesting. I wonder why that would be. The Omega HR should have been the harder coin to manufacture bye a wide margin
MY ORIGINAL QUESTION TO TTTT: "Is there a possibility that he "Omega" three dollar was struck before the fake $20? Do you have any recollection of a Type 3 gold dollar produced by the mob?
@jmlanzaf replied: "It's not possible"
My response to this "extraordinary" reply indicating a great amount of specific knowledge about the "Omega" counterfeit $3 Princess coins:
OK, you seem to know all about these coins so rather than post this: "It's not possible," PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY it's not possible. I'm also curious as to where you were working and authenticating these pieces in 1972. Were you in the Treasury Dept?"
Now this reply from @jmlanzaf: "Because 4T's already told us that the Omega was added to the $20s at the insistence of his father to prevent counterfeiting charges."
UNFORTUNATELY, again IMHO, we have an instance of clouding up this discussion with comments that have absolutely NOTHING to do with my question to TTTT about the $3 "Omega" fake being made before or after the HR $20!
So I'll ask again...@jmlanzaf Do you have any information to determine if the $3 fake was produced before the $20? You have posted above that "It's not possible." What do you base this on - your personal experience, hearsay, personal research, FOI files, inside knowledge? Thanks.
Very interesting indeed, perhaps the $3 was made before the HR. Perhaps, no one saw the little "signature" because the $3 was considered such a "crude, off color, across-the-room-fake" that no one bothered to examine it closely.
A few Omega HRs were struck from the original die(s) and the bulk from dies copied from the original, using a reduction lathe in reverse to make plasters, then reducing to make dies. The $3s came later, after the operation was transferred to Mr.Bs former organization, and was an attempt to continue to profit from the lucrative 1970s counterfeit gold coin market. It wasn't nearly as lucrative as the 1907HRs due to poorer quality. These dies were presumably engraved by Frenchy or another engraver, without the benefit of reproducing a genuine item mechanically, resulting in poor quality.
Mr. Bs original hope seems to be to use the original die to produce coins that were indistinguishable from the originals. It was only after he purchased the die that he was informed that it wouldn't be usable for many strikes. That's probably when he got the idea to copy it. Perhaps he could have just used a genuine coin but he had purchased this die and could probably get a better copy from it as it wouldn't have the defects of a coin that would need to be eliminated.
My question would concern the reverse die. This is not a question that I would expect TTTT to answer as he has told us what he remembers and that seems to indicate one die, presumably the obverse, was purchased. But that original purchase might have included two dies, obverse and reverse, otherwise a reverse die would have had to be made. TTTT wasn't there and can only testify as to what info was told to him.
Was this reverse purchased with the obverse die or was it made from a genuine coin, or? What do our experts think?
@sellitstore said:
"A few Omega HRs were struck from the original die(s) and the bulk from dies copied from the original, using a reduction lathe in reverse to make plasters, then reducing to make dies. The $3s came later, after the operation was transferred to Mr.Bs former organization, and was an attempt to continue to profit from the lucrative 1970s counterfeit gold coin market. It wasn't nearly as lucrative as the 1907HRs due to poorer quality. These dies were presumably engraved by Frenchy or another engraver, without the benefit of reproducing a genuine item mechanically, resulting in poor quality."
Mr. Bs original hope seems to be to use the original die to produce coins that were indistinguishable from the originals. It was only after he purchased the die that he was informed that it wouldn't be usable for many strikes. That's probably when he got the idea to copy it. Perhaps he could have just used a genuine coin but he had purchased this die and could probably get a better copy from it as it wouldn't have the defects of a coin that would need to be eliminated.
My question would concern the reverse die. This is not a question that I would expect TTTT to answer as he has told us what he remembers and that seems to indicate one die, presumably the obverse, was purchased. But that original purchase might have included two dies, obverse and reverse, otherwise a reverse die would have had to be made. Was this reverse purchased with the obverse die or was it made from a genuine coin, or? What do our experts think?"
OH MY...
@sellitstore
Were you a poster in the ORIGINAL "Omega" discussion? Please refresh my memory. Where did this info about an "original" and "copy die" come from? Is this correct...TTTT stated that a genuine HR die pair was obtained from the Mint (either dumped or smuggled out) and a few coins were struck before it was ruined and a copy die was made from it which struck the bulk of the fake $20's? Then the $3 were struck.
Here is the problem as I see it. So far, all we have is a plausible "STORY." Absolutely NOTHING has been verified yet with the aid of TTTT, the truth of his story may come out eventually. All we have are the coins themselves and I'm working on a chronology of when I detected each of many gold fakes (including the two "Omegas") seen at the Certification Service that MAY refute a bunch of misinformation.
It's too bad all the conjecture in TTTT's discussions has been introduced as PROVEN FACT such as what you have posted concerning the dies. This "story" is not finished and TTTT may have provided an interesting bit of numismatic history about these fakes. Hopefully, what has been already posted from former threads can be distilled here and all of us can "play nice" so the thread will stay open so TTTT and other members will continue to participate.
Nothing other than my absolute trust in Dr. D's credibility.
My interest is in the production of the Ω Double Eagle. I'd rather the $3Ω be left for addendum.
As to this question: "Was this reverse purchased with the obverse die or was it made from a genuine coin, or?"
To the best of my knowledge, VIRTUALLY EVERY fake gold coin seen in the market after 1972 (when I became involved) and I suspect even those appearing in the late 1960's were DIE STRUCK counterfeits produced from transfer dies. This in spite of the fact that the "EX-Pert" coin authenticators' of the day (except for Charles Hoskins) were publishing and teaching that the gold coins were CAST COUNTERFEITS!
Any NONSENSE about hand-engraved gold dies is pure BS!
To be totally honest, I believe I saw a few cast gold pieces (dollars and Territorials) so I figure perhaps a dozen cast fake gold coins vs many thousands of struck fakes in the past fifty years.
As is mine but the coins ARE connected. I'll have some questions/comments about the HR dies when I take some images.
The Royal Mint was making excellent transfer dies for demonstration and enforcement purposes from coins in the latter 19th century, as were a few counterfeiters. At least one version of a two-headed Morgan dollar is shown on the USpatterns.com web site.
@Insider2 Yes, I participated in the original thread and don't recall TTTT making reference to a die pair. I could be wrong but are you sure that you are not and just assumed the "pair" part? That's why I inquire about the reverse die.
I don't understand your confusion on the original die(s) and copy made from it. Do we really have a different understanding of what TTTT has said? Mr. B bought an original and made a copy from it, didn't he?
I have previously stated that what we have is a working theory, not established and confirmed fact by any means, and I continue to hold that view.
I recall 4T referencing 'two ' clumps, pieces of metal.
What we have is not merely a working theory, but the only theory as to production.
Most graciously, 4T has given the board a start. I hope he continues.
"I was present when a man produced to my father two chunks of metal each about the size of the head of a small sledge hammer. He called them transfer or production die."
He has referred to "Dies" or "Two" a few times, but at times he also typed "Die" singularly (Perhaps meaning die set/pair).
I am pretty sure the original dies bought was a set (We had some discussion in last year's thread about the possibility of the collar - whether that was included, or made afterwards).
Those with Omega's would really need to study the lettered edge on these coins for clues, the thread poofed before anyone could report any findings.
"You Suck Award" - February, 2015
Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
I will post images of the collars when I get the chance. I'll need to crack the coin out to do it.
I thought that Pinches made those dies. I may be wrong.
@StrikeOutXXX Thanks for the clarification. I do remember some discussion of the collar in the original thread, but nothing about obverse and reverse dies.
The Omega is on the reverse, so we know that the reverse die was copied and artist signed but was the tooling on the obverse die done to remove rust and the original die used to produce the 20,000, or was the obverse die copied, too, with the corrections being done to the plaster model? Excuse me if I've forgotten these details or was never clear on them a year ago.
No Authenticator that I know has ever seen one of the 30 to 50 pieces allegedly struck from original, U.S. Mint made dies that allegedly progressively failed during this short striking run.
Every "Omega" counterfeit seen by us, wherever and whenever they were struck, was struck from two copy dies and a copied segmented collar. I make no allegations as to how these copy dies or the copied collar were made. There are various techniques that have been used by various counterfeiters at various times and places with varying success. That said, as counterfeits go these are high quality counterfeits.
There is no proven connection between the operation that made the "Omega" $20's and any other "Omega" counterfeit. It is possible that the "Omega" marks were created on different dies by one individual who worked for two or more different operations at two or more different times. The high quality of the "Omega" $20 counterfeits indicated that they were made by a skilled counterfeiter with experience at his trade. We do not know what other counterfeits he made before or after the "Omega" $20 operation. Anything else is speculation.
Hi guys, just got off the phone with Skip Fazzari. For me, a wonderful and emotional conversation. I have though about this man for nearly 50 years.
Opps, sorry ..hit the post button by accident. History has a way of repeating itself and another post was removed due to someone',s bad behavior
Skip is very happy I came back and wants me to keep posting, we will see.
Try and remember that I am repeating what I saw and what I heard. I keep getting attacked by disbelievers primarily by what I heard. I am only the messenger, please quit shooting me, I get testy. A young man came to my fathers office with die and a story. For all I know, he may have bought the die on Amazon and made his story up to help sell them. I know JB did some background on this man and I believe to the highest degree of probability that he was the son of a prominent mint worker. How he got the die and how his father got them is his story. They may have been procured in a dishonest way and he didn't want to soil his fathers honor and told us what he did. Got it! What is of most importance here is that almost all of the experts here do not believe mint die could have ever left the mint and there is no record of any stolen or missing. Fazzari also believed that. The document that Kbbppl produced blows that out of the window. That document showed that a die set were checked out of the mint by an engraver to take home. That is a critical find. It does not have to be the right die, nor the right year, nor a dbl eagle. Die were permitted and did leave the mint. No one knows what that engraver did with or to those die he took home. It needs to be investigated
Both Fazzari and I agree, my story is good for the Omega, collectors, buyers etc. The interest in the coin has gone way up. People, including me want one and they are available. The have a historical value and are going for more than the spot price of gold. That is a great accomplishment. Forum members have gotten one and forum members want one. I have gotten a lot of thank yous, that means it has either answered some questions or brought some closure to people who needed it and I am very happy for them. I get NO MONEY for coming here. I had no agenda other than my friends asking me to tell the world what I knew. I did not sell it to a magazine or author, nothing. I had a bad health scare and my time is limited, why not share this story to the people who could do the most with it...you guys. It is only because of my work in the Zodiac murder mystery and the show on YouTube produced by my neighbor...Zodiac News Network that led to a movie deal. I went on youtube to show the world 9 years of work for free. Why? Because the world deserves to know. I told them this story and hopefully the world will learn about the Omega coin. It is your passion, your enthusiasm and your history.
I knew nothing about coins, my father had his children at the office to see something really neat, really cool. I do not believe Bonanno had any thought about making coins when he came to look at the die for sale. He was a very rich man who is approached often by people wanting to sell very valuable items, but he is a mobster and is under 24 hour surveillance. He cannot buy anything that is stolen and then caught with it. Until he actually took possession, he was just a looker. Remember, he put this man up in a very expensive hotel for a few days at his expense to have an expert look at them and then to discuss the consequences of taking possession. It was my fathers impression that it would be very difficult to pursue stolen property if the story was true. I do not think any idea of punching out fakes arose until the expert said they were still usable. There was a lot of surprise and questions at that time. The expert repeated that they cold make coins on a limited basis and then probably collapse due to their age and that they were used. This is not hearsay, I was there. I did not witness the sale or even know about it until Bonanno came by for dinner a short time later. We had a set of Encyclopedia Britannica and he asked one of us to look up coin pressing and read it outloud. No one knows when the idea of trying to make coins occurred. If someone thinks he was making other coins prior, I would never accept that without absolute proof. This was all new to him and he knew as much as I...absolutely nothing. He had an awful lot of money and a collectors item.
Think about this. I do not believe those die or any die were ever destroyed. I believe they are out there. My brother and I both lamented that we wished we had an Omega. Fazzari agreed. After speaking with him., I thought about all I have learned and who is a true expert here and who is capable of what. It then dawned on me. How do I know that I would be purchasing a genuine fake Omega or a fake, fake Omega. I believe DCarr is absolutely capable of punching out a Dcarr Omega. He has the equipment, the experience, and the knowledge. We all know how to make a coin. Why couldn't he buy a real 1907, reverse engineer it, buy a bullion dbl eagle so he would have the right gold and make his own omega after adding a few tool marks and an omega sign. The omegas are going for $3000 plus. Bullion coin is spot. Make a thousand and he's in the money. Doesn't need to perfect his Italian accent. How about the person who has the die. Why not punch a few more out?
Lastly, it has suggested the only way to disprove this story is to destroy an omega and analyze the metal content. How do I know that Bonanno continued to use Mexican $50 dollar pesos? Some one posted that there just wasn't enough or they would have been hard to get. Not in the beginning, but I never had anything to do with production and any changes or refinements, nor was I ever told. He was an amateur, but I am sure he learned quickly and made changes to keep the production going. Maybe he ordered his own gold? How would I know. If you think that is ridiculous, please feel free to ruin an Omega and make your claim only to have the experts pounce on you as to what I just said.
Please try not to be bothered by those who doubt you and/or disagree with you. It distracts you from the discussion and gets you nowhere. Besides, nearly anything that anyone posts Is subject to disagreement from someone.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
There are various non-destructive testing methods that give you a very precise reading of the contents without harming the object. I for one would love to see the test results on an "Omega" $20.
There are many die markers on the vintage "Omega" $20's that could be used to spot a modern copy of it. You don't think that Authenticators publish everything, do you?
I agree, but remember, these coins are fake and I doubt anyone is going to pay to have an authenticator say "yes it is an Omega" I believe a coin shop would just look for the omega sign and tool marks, weight etc. I buy bullion for my retirement account and not one coin was authenticated. I don't think I would pay that fee to distinquish a Bonanno Omega from a theoretical DCarr Omega. I am interested in buying a Bonanno omega, I will most likelyNOT have it authenticated and only hope I got what I wanted. If it is not a Bonanno, what am I going to say...hey you sold me a fake?
By the way, The historians and I photographed the shop building over the weekend. It started out as a US Marine Corp Quonset hut sold as surplus. It was part of a body shop and was updated over the years. One thing that has always stuck in my head was how hot it got in that building from May to October with only a swamp cooler. It was an oven and I could not have ever worked in that building. I can tell you it did not take long for aprons and gloves to come off. I am sure many of the coins were touched by one or both of these mens bare hands. Only after produced were they handled by others in an a/c cooled room and wrapped. From that point out, there were probably always in a plastic wrap or handled by people with gloves. I am sure there ae many Omegas that have never left it's package. May sound stupid, but I'll bet there are fingerprints out there somewhere. Fingerprints deteriorate if exposed but some are protected. Find a print, maybe one worker had a record. Sounds dumb . but I remember Bonanno talking about it and my father saying "what can you do".