I first came across this thread on Monday, January 29, 2018. And I spent most of my day inhaling over 900 posts, fprward 4 pages and then backwards from page 18........just to make sure that this was not a BIG Spoof. In the process I learned a lot, not necessarily about the true identity of the Omega Man, but more about the inner workings of a mafia counterfeir operation. One that was based upon defrauding collectors rather than creating legal tender from low cost metals instead of gold. 4T's story certainly deserves a critical review, but I find it sad that he was attacted and interrogated without specific cause. 4T's was not a numismatist and should have not been affronted for his lack of numismatic knowledge. Hopefully, we have 90% of his story to further evaluate in the future. Good investigators ask questions rather than level accusations pre-maturely.
My lawyer and general counsel to my company had experience about this time in Phoenix in his early law career. H related to me that he was was "pursuing" an operative of Bonnano for real estate fraud about that time........until the principal of his law firm told him to drop the case before he would get a funerary wreath at his door. He only knew of real estate fraud and so was of not benefit on corroboration of 4T's story.
I would hope that PCGS un-poofs the thread and instead just locks it down as it is of value to future numismatic researchers following one of the greatest, and most perfect C/F in history.
@OldIndianNutKase said: "I would hope that PCGS un-poofs the thread and instead just locks it down as it is of value to future numismatic researchers following one of the greatest, and most perfect C/F in history."
One member posted a link to much/all (?) of TTTT's posts. IMO, his is the only new and important information.
As to this: "...one of the greatest, and most perfect C/F in history." I'll say it is one of the most famous in our country ONLY because of when it appeared (shortly after the first authentication service came into being), what it did to the way coins would be authenticated in the future, and because the mystery of a "signnature" linked two different counterfeits. I'm sure they were not the first fakes to be "marked" as such.
As to "most perfect," absolutely not. There are many candidates in the field of ancients that far surpassed Mr. Omega's work. For US coins, the perfect counterfeits are the Morgan dollars that deceived every Morgan dollar specialist, numismatic researcher, and professional authenticator for almost a century until one "seasoned" authenticator put the first 1896-Micro O coin he ever saw under a low power microscope. Poof!
Unfortunately, IMO the perfect counterfeit in this day and age has not been detected yet.
@Insider2:
" Unfortunately, IMO the perfect counterfeit in this day and age has not been detected yet. "
The original 40 +/- coins struck as alleged on US Mint dies, without the Omega, may never be discovered........because they are the perfect C/F. But it can be said that a coin struck on US Mint dies is not a C/F?
@Insider2 said: @OldIndianNutKase said: "I would hope that PCGS un-poofs the thread and instead just locks it down as it is of value to future numismatic researchers following one of the greatest, and most perfect C/F in history."
One member posted a link to much/all (?) of TTTT's posts. IMO, his is the only new and important information.
As to this: "...one of the greatest, and most perfect C/F in history." I'll say it is one of the most famous in our country ONLY because of when it appeared (shortly after the first authentication service came into being), what it did to the way coins would be authenticated in the future, and because the mystery of a "signnature" linked two different counterfeits. I'm sure they were not the first fakes to be "marked" as such.
As to "most perfect," absolutely not. There are many candidates in the field of ancients that far surpassed Mr. Omega's work. For US coins, the perfect counterfeits are the Morgan dollars that deceived every Morgan dollar specialist, numismatic researcher, and professional authenticator for almost a century until one "seasoned" authenticator put the first 1896-Micro O coin he ever saw under a low power microscope. Poof!
Unfortunately, IMO the perfect counterfeit in this day and age has not been detected yet.
Agreed. The quality of the Omegas is good, but easily detected once you have two of them side by side so you can look for repeating marks.
Will chime in on this in a couple of days. Try not to get it poofed.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@RogerB said:
RE: "...as coins were made, new planchets (rolled Mexico Peso's) were brought in,..."
Metal does not work this way. Rolling out a coin flattens, elongates and blurs the design, but it also work hardens it. A rolled out coin could never be used as a blank or planchet in any type of press. The US Mint rolled out coins because it made them easier and faster to melt. See the articles of Pittman Silver Dollars)
PS; A FOIA request to FBI or USSS can take a year or longer to process.
Given what they were doing with them, I wonder why they wouldn't just strike them over $20 Libs. They are already the right size and weight. Wouldn't it be much less work to start with essentially the correct planchet.
I still wish we knew what the hell had happened here.
I have to wonder. Even if the story details are largely made up, doesn't it seem possible (probable?) that the details were made up to support a story D'Antonio heard from his father or Bonanno? I mean, the Omega coins aren't that well known outside numismatic circles. The trigger for his Zodiac involvement was watching a show about the Zodiac killings. How would he have gotten on to the Omega story?
It's a little frustrating that we'll likely never know the truth.
@OldIndianNutKase said: @Insider2:
" Unfortunately, IMO the perfect counterfeit in this day and age has not been detected yet. "
The original 40 +/- coins struck as alleged on US Mint dies, without the Omega, may never be discovered........because they are the perfect C/F. But it can be said that a coin struck on US Mint dies is not a C/F?
OINK
That is an allegation without any proof. If you read the story as it evolved, he also claimed they cleaned rust off the dies and that the dies were breaking down as they were striking. It is unlikely they would have resulted in "perfect coins". Captain Henway is also looking at the collar issue.
One that was based upon defrauding collectors rather than creating legal tender from low cost metals instead of gold. 4T's story certainly deserves a critical review, but I find it sad that he was attacted and interrogated without specific cause.
OINK
I think if you could read the middle part of the thread, you'd see why it broke down. It wasn't from people attacking him initially. It started with people questioning details. 4T's responded petulantly and started repeatedly baiting posters, eventually me primarily, calling me "nitwit" or "nit" for asking questions such as "how did 11 year old Bonanno help Woodrow Wilson get re-elected"? His later posts had no new information and a lot of personal attacks. Even then, I never did anything except suggest that someone was posing as D'Antonio (a common suspicion, by the way).
You say "good investigators" ask questions rather than leveling accusations. That's what we TRIED to do. When the Wilson photo came up, several posters including myself simply suggested he was misremembering. He responded by doubling down on the Wilson story. When he said that the operation started in 1964 or 65, I pointed out that couldn't be correct because Bonanno was in hiding from October 1964 through most of 1966. Instead of suggesting that maybe it was 1967, he called me an idiot and doubled down on 1964/65 even though he couldn't have been home in Tucson because both the Feds and the mob were looking for him. That was the response we got to virtually every question.
Could I have been less pretentious in my responses? Yes. Should I have shut up and walked away? Probably. But I was interested in the topic and wanted to discuss it. Unfortunately, the credibility of the source was a significant issue because it was the only thing we could investigate and because there were some gaping inconsistencies [see the "age issue" above].
@OldIndianNutKase said: @Insider2:
" Unfortunately, IMO the perfect counterfeit in this day and age has not been detected yet. "
The original 40 +/- coins struck as alleged on US Mint dies, without the Omega, may never be discovered........because they are the perfect C/F. But it can be said that a coin struck on US Mint dies is not a C/F?
OINK
What you are asking me to believe is that the counterfeiters made forty "perfect" coins and then started knocking out "crap." The genuine dies to these coins have been mapped. There are no "perfect" HR counterfeits.
Decades ago, I may have given your theory some pause as there was a "wrench" in the die linkage UNTIL authenticators learned (RWB confirmed) that there was more than one medal press used to strike the HR coins at the Mint.
Even today, the market is filled with very crude "tourist junk" that most collectors discuss until it gets silly and extremely dangerous products that defy immediate detection. Since they are detected eventually, the are only "perfect" for a short period. Unlike the C/F Morgan's at the turn of the century.
@OldIndianNutKase said: @Insider2:
" Unfortunately, IMO the perfect counterfeit in this day and age has not been detected yet. "
The original 40 +/- coins struck as alleged on US Mint dies, without the Omega, may never be discovered........because they are the perfect C/F. But it can be said that a coin struck on US Mint dies is not a C/F?
OINK
What you are asking me to believe is that the counterfeiters made forty "perfect" coins and then started knocking out "crap." The genuine dies to these coins have been mapped. There are no "perfect" HR counterfeits.
Decades ago, I may have given your theory some pause as there was a "wrench" in the die linkage UNTIL authenticators learned (RWB confirmed) that there was more than one medal press used to strike the HR coins at the Mint.
Even today, the market is filled with very crude "tourist junk" that most collectors discuss until it gets silly and extremely dangerous products that defy immediate detection. Since they are detected eventually, the are only "perfect" for a short period. Unlike the C/F Morgan's at the turn of the century.
Does anyone have any links to articles which offer alternative explanations for the creation of the Omega 1907 $20 High Reliefs?
Just as an aside, I did a little "Fun with Math!" last night to see how much 50 Pesos would have to be rolled down to produce a correct-weight $20 "planchet."
The diameter of a 50 pesos is 37.08 mm. Using the "pi radius squared" formula the area is 1,079.86 sq. mm.
The diameter of a $20 is 34.29. Using the formula the area is 923.47 sq. mm, approx. 85.5% the area of the 50 pesos.
If the 50 pesos coin were perfectly flat (but still unrolled) and you punched a 34.29 mm "planchet" out of it, it would weigh approx. 35.63 grams (41.6667 grams x 0.855). A $20 weighs 33.436 grams, so you would have to reduce the thickness of the 50 pesos by about 6.2% to get a $20 "planchet" of the right weight.
But of course a 50 pesos is not flat, and has raised designs concentrated near the centers. Punch a "planchet" out of it and it would weigh more than 35.64 grams. How much, I do not know, but let's say that you have to reduce the thickness of your 50 pesos by about 7% before you punch your "planchet" out of it. Then you could weigh it and adjust the weight with a file if necessary.
I do not know if rolling a 50 pesos down by 7% would obliterate the design of the 50 pesos enough to keep it from showing through on the overstrike. Obviously the raised designs would be compressed by more than 7%, but I think they would still be clearly visible, and would expect some of them to survive the overstriking.
Omega $20's have been well studied. I have never seen, or heard of, an understrike on an Omega $20.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I agree Capt.- I've bought/sold the Omega's in the '70's and 80's,
as counterfeits, and I've never seen or heard of any understikes
on any of them.
And, as I mentioned twice in the 'gone' original thread, they
are not close to 50 Peso's in color - if they were, they would
have been more easily determined to be counterfeits, imo.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Perhaps Dan Carr can tell us what rolling a struck gold coin by about 7% in thickness would leave of the designs.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@OldIndianNutKase said: @Insider2:
" Unfortunately, IMO the perfect counterfeit in this day and age has not been detected yet. "
The original 40 +/- coins struck as alleged on US Mint dies, without the Omega, may never be discovered........because ntury.
Does anyone have any links to articles which offer alternative explanations for the creation of the Omega 1907 $20 High Reliefs?
Insider2 posted an old ANA article by Hoskins that talked about them. The seemed to think they were Lebanese (?) in origin, but I'm not exactly sure why.
@CaptHenway said:
Perhaps Dan Carr can tell us what rolling a struck gold coin by about 7% in thickness would leave of the designs.
@dcarr He might also be able to weigh in on the general planchet issue. Is it easier to form planchets from raw gold, obliterate a design on an existing $20 Lib, or roll and trim a Mexican 50 peso? Or anything else he can think of.
In general, I think it would be hard for amateurs to strike the high relief coin on repurposed planchets. Even striking on new planchets for that coin would be challenging, wouldn't it? I mean, easier today with a 500 ton press. But on a 160 ton press, the Mint could barely pull it off in 1907 with all their collective experience.
@jmlanzaf said: "Insider2 posted an old ANA article by Hoskins that talked about them. The seemed to think they were Lebanese (?) in origin, but I'm not exactly sure why."
Probably because an ANA President had visited one of the shops striking counterfeits over in Lebanon and at the time most counterfeit gold was assumed to be only from that country. I think it was also because the gold counterfeits seen at that time (including the Omega's) looked the same.
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Insider2 posted an old ANA article by Hoskins that talked about them. The seemed to think they were Lebanese (?) in origin, but I'm not exactly sure why."
Probably because an ANA President had visited one of the shops striking counterfeits over in Lebanon and at the time most counterfeit gold was assumed to be only from that country. I think it was also because the gold counterfeits seen at that time (including the Omega's) looked the same.
Didn't you forget to call me an idiot while you were answering the question?
@Insider2 said: @jmlanzaf said: "Insider2 posted an old ANA article by Hoskins that talked about them. The seemed to think they were Lebanese (?) in origin, but I'm not exactly sure why."
Probably because an ANA President had visited one of the shops striking counterfeits over in Lebanon and at the time most counterfeit gold was assumed to be only from that country. I think it was also because the gold counterfeits seen at that time (including the Omega's) looked the same.
As Insider says, that was the best information available to counterfeit detectors in the 1970's. Many counterfeits did come out of Lebanon.
In an unrelated theme, I think I have the name of the Lebanese counterfeiter, but I cannot prove it. This will be the topic of a future article somewhere.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@CaptHenway said: "In an unrelated theme, I think I have the name of the Lebanese counterfeiter, but I cannot prove it. This will be the topic of a future article somewhere."
@Insider2 said: @CaptHenway said: "In an unrelated theme, I think I have the name of the Lebanese counterfeiter, but I cannot prove it. This will be the topic of a future article somewhere."
Does it begin with an "O?"
No.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Insider2 said: @CaptHenway said: "In an unrelated theme, I think I have the name of the Lebanese counterfeiter, but I cannot prove it. This will be the topic of a future article somewhere."
Does it begin with an "O?"
No.
Looks like both you and another poster know who the Lebanese counterfeiter might be. Perhaps you two should compare notes.
From the linked story as archived from the original OP's Omega thread postings:
"There are some excellent experts on this thread with top notch credentials. I have two very simple questions that only require a yes or no answer.
1 I want to buy a 1907 high relief double eagle for $250,000. I want it to be authenticated so I don't get ripped off. It has no omega symbol, no intertwined worm marks and no unusual die characteristics. It does have an off tone color like Omegas and I am nervous. Will you professionally authenticate it as genuine or not...yes or no?"
.....
"My father and Bonanno believed the coin experts of the day
were FAKES. You keep defending the experts despite the fact that over 19,000 coins were sold to
the public at a cost of 200-300 million. "
.....
" ..... nearly 20,000 fake coins were sold for hundreds of millions of dollars."
Out of curiosity I tracked down a 1971 edition of the Redbook to find out just what a 1907 High Relief Saint Gaudens was going for at that time. As I anticipated, even a proof was only valued at $2,500.00. Obviously no one was paying $250,000 a coin back in 1971, but conceivably after the asserted initial run of a few dozen (proofs?) with the asserted garbage dump sourced dies, if there were subsequently 19,000 of the Omega signed coins produced, and simply sold as "uncirculated," that could have added up to a tidy sum.
@northcoin "1 I want to buy a 1907 high relief double eagle for $250,000. I want it to be authenticated so I don't get ripped off. It has no omega symbol, no intertwined worm marks and no unusual die characteristics. It does have an off tone color like Omegas and I am nervous. Will you professionally authenticate it as genuine or not...yes or no?"
According to 4T, about forty +/- coins were struck with US Mint dies, but on Mexican gold. The Omega C/F's are obvious, and too many here are focused on the "obvious" Omega C/F's. But there may exist C/F's struck on US Mint dies on Mexican gold, and the color is off. Great Question northcoin.
While I'm not one of those you asked to reply, I say NUTS! Didn't happen. You know what, in the last fifteen years, I've seen two counterfeit HR coins that are not Omega's so who knows. The color of their gold was normal though. I also saw an Omega with the "mark" scratched out. LOL.
PS I did hear a story in the 1980's that the US mint gave the dies to make normal $20 (date ?) coins to the Russians and they struck coins that are indistinguishable. I don't believe it
@jmlanzaf said:
Given what they were doing with them, I wonder why they wouldn't just strike them over $20 Libs. They are already the right size and weight. Wouldn't it be much less work to start with essentially the correct planchet.
Perhaps the Mexican $50 pieces were not paid for in cash.
Lance.
@jmlanzaf said:
Given what they were doing with them, I wonder why they wouldn't just strike them over $20 Libs. They are already the right size and weight. Wouldn't it be much less work to start with essentially the correct planchet.
Perhaps the Mexican $50 pieces were not paid for in cash.
Lance.
??? I'm not sure the point. Cash or no cash, a $20 Lib would have cost $35-$40 and saved days or weeks of work. Upconverted to $2500, the cost of the $20 lib would be minor while the effort to try and roll and trim and adjust the weight of the 50 Pesos was significant.
Striking them over AU $20 Saints would have made more sense, but either Libs or Saints, those would have had to have been purchased in the U.S. (or smuggled in from Switzerland), and a purchase of that size might have attracted attention and left a paper trail. Remember that Henning got caught making his nickels through the company that supplied him his planchets.
Not saying that either happened. Just considering the possible consequences if it had.
Fred, when was it first possible for you to go to Switzerland and buy $20's in quantity? Did you have to declare them upon entry back into the U.S.?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Yes, we had to declare the quantity of
each denomination, and value.
I never, with one exception, carried coins
with me from my Euro trips back to L.A. -
because even if I declared 50 coins, let's say,
on my customs form, customs would have
taken them from me because of the quantity.
We had a customs broker at LAX who cleared
all of our shipments (mostly Lufthansa, direct
flights from Zurich), and he would have had
to clear those coins taken from me - but that
would have taken a few extra days, and his
fee's.
It was just a lot easier to put them all in the
shipment, and have him clear everything at
once.
By the way, I never saw, or heard of any Omega
HR being offered as Proofs; I also, as stated in
the other (gone) thread, that I do not believe
there were anywhere near 20K pieces that ever
were on the market (of Omega's).
And, to those who might ask about the
'one exception' mentioned in my 2nd paragraph -
Because of the metal, the condition, the importance
of it - the only coin I ever recall carrying with me
on a flight back from Europe (gold or silver) was
the (now MS-67) 1794 Half Cent I bought in 1978.
I was VERY concerned that US Customs at LAX might look
at that coin, take it out of the flip, and touch it !
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@CaptHenway said:
Striking them over AU $20 Saints would have made more sense, but either Libs or Saints, those would have had to have been purchased in the U.S. (or smuggled in from Switzerland), and a purchase of that size might have attracted attention and left a paper trail. Remember that Henning got caught making his nickels through the company that supplied him his planchets.
Not saying that either happened. Just considering the possible consequences if it had.
Fred, when was it first possible for you to go to Switzerland and buy $20's in quantity? Did you have to declare them upon entry back into the U.S.?
Fred might declare his $20's, would the Mafia?
They smuggled in 160 ton coin press from Argentina (allegedly). How hard would it be to smuggle in a few hundred $20s?
@northcoin said:
From the linked story as archived from the original OP's Omega thread postings:
"There are some excellent experts on this thread with top notch credentials. I have two very simple questions that only require a yes or no answer.
1 I want to buy a 1907 high relief double eagle for $250,000. I want it to be authenticated so I don't get ripped off. It has no omega symbol, no intertwined worm marks and no unusual die characteristics. It does have an off tone color like Omegas and I am nervous. Will you professionally authenticate it as genuine or not...yes or no?"
.....
"My father and Bonanno believed the coin experts of the day
were FAKES. You keep defending the experts despite the fact that over 19,000 coins were sold to
the public at a cost of 200-300 million. "
.....
" ..... nearly 20,000 fake coins were sold for hundreds of millions of dollars."
>
None of that math ever added up. Even if you sold 20,000 coins at 2,000 each (twice your red book), that only gets you to $40 million not the $200-300 million. And 4T's also posted that there were many left unsold at the time they closed up shop.
The odd thing about the Omegas is the $20s. The $3's had to be much easier to strike and potentially more lucrative as a result.
The existence of the $3s also suggests that the ability to create dies - unless you think they also stole $3 dies from the Mint. So, what was the source of the gold for the $3's. If we believe 4T's story, it could have been from peso leftovers. But, if they had the ability to form planchets from shavings, they wouldn't need to roll out pesos and trim them anyway, would they?
"By the way, I never saw, or heard of any Omega
HR being offered as Proofs; I also, as stated in
the other (gone) thread, that I do not believe
there were anywhere near 20K pieces that ever
were on the market (of Omega's)."
Thanks for reposting here. Had you suggested they were in the 100s, not 1000s?
What were the gold ownership regulations prior to 1972 with respect to Mexican 50 pesos? Would they have been legal? I recall that gold coins dated after 1945 were banned.
@EagleEye said:
What were the gold ownership regulations prior to 1972 with respect to Mexican 50 pesos? Would they have been legal? I recall that gold coins dated after 1945 were banned.
I don't think they were legal. All gold was covered by the 1933 ban, wasn't it? In fact, I once had a gold slug with paperwork from a Canadian depository (I'm in NY, a border state) which indicated that they specialized in holding gold for Americans. The slug was literally a 1 ounce bullet shaped blob with no other markings.
By the way, the legal status of gold is another problem with the legal advice in 4T's story. He claims his father told Bonanno that putting an omega on the coins prevented a charge of counterfeiting. But simply possessing that quantity of gold was possibly a federal offense. And given Bonanno was a known member of organized crime, they might have prosecuted him over it even if they might not have bothered with a regular citizen, cf. Capone and tax evasion.
@EagleEye said:
For the mob, import regulations were likely not a problem.
But first they would have to buy the coins, and that could create a paper trail.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
AFAIK when gold was banned, it had nothing to do with vintage collector coins. The government told folks to turn in their gold coins. Many did but it should be obvious that everyone did not. As a child, my grandfather proudly showed me his hidden stash of gold coins which included two Sesqui $2 1/2 he got at the Expo for his wife and my dad. At the time he thought he had broken the law as he had kept them hidden after the ban. It was not until I became much older and interested in coins that I learned folks could keep a "collection."
Yes, in my opinion, there might have been
up to a few hundred of the Omega's but
certainly not 500 of them, or 20,000.
And, although it wasn't till the very late
'70s/early 80's, the company I worked
for used to sell large quantities of Mexico
50 Pesos to a Mexican national, who was
an importer/exporter of other things, including
the purest, smoothest Tequila I've ever had.
(I still have one sealed bottle of it at home -
' Invincible ' was the name of it.)
I mention this because he was buying these
in 1,000 to 2,000 piece quantities to SMUGGLE
INTO MEXICO -
Why? - because there was a 13% or 15% 'tax'
IN Mexico for the sale of 50 Pesos (and all other
Mexican bullion coins), and by buying them in
the States, and smuggling them into Mexico,
he could sell them, make a nice profit, and
save the buyer most (but probably not all! )
of the 13%-15% tax at the time.
By the way, when we delivered the coins to
him in San Diego, he would always give us
a bottle or two of this Invincible Tequila -
we would keep a bottle of it in our Vault
Room, and at first, because of the novelty of
it, we would drink a bit of in styrofoam cups -
straight ! It was so smooth, we didn't need
a lime to cut it - we'd drink it out of the cup
as poured! Smooth, tasty.......
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@Insider2 said:
AFAIK when gold was banned, it had nothing to do with vintage collector coins. The government told folks to turn in their gold coins. Many did but it should be obvious that everyone did not. As a child, my grandfather proudly showed me his hidden stash of gold coins which included two Sesqui $2 1/2 he got at the Expo for his wife and my dad. At the time he thought he had broken the law as he had kept them hidden after the ban. It was not until I became much older and interested in coins that I learned folks could keep a "collection."
This is true. But if you read the wikipedia thread. Some of the few prosecutions that occured included "sale quantities" of gold coins, from a jeweler no less.
By the way, when we delivered the coins to
him in San Diego, he would always give us
a bottle or two of this Invincible Tequila -
we would keep a bottle of it in our Vault
Room, and at first, because of the novelty of
it, we would drink a bit of in styrofoam cups -
straight ! It was so smooth, we didn't need
a lime to cut it - we'd drink it out of the cup
as poured! Smooth, tasty.......
Comments
I first came across this thread on Monday, January 29, 2018. And I spent most of my day inhaling over 900 posts, fprward 4 pages and then backwards from page 18........just to make sure that this was not a BIG Spoof. In the process I learned a lot, not necessarily about the true identity of the Omega Man, but more about the inner workings of a mafia counterfeir operation. One that was based upon defrauding collectors rather than creating legal tender from low cost metals instead of gold. 4T's story certainly deserves a critical review, but I find it sad that he was attacted and interrogated without specific cause. 4T's was not a numismatist and should have not been affronted for his lack of numismatic knowledge. Hopefully, we have 90% of his story to further evaluate in the future. Good investigators ask questions rather than level accusations pre-maturely.
My lawyer and general counsel to my company had experience about this time in Phoenix in his early law career. H related to me that he was was "pursuing" an operative of Bonnano for real estate fraud about that time........until the principal of his law firm told him to drop the case before he would get a funerary wreath at his door. He only knew of real estate fraud and so was of not benefit on corroboration of 4T's story.
I would hope that PCGS un-poofs the thread and instead just locks it down as it is of value to future numismatic researchers following one of the greatest, and most perfect C/F in history.
OINK
@OldIndianNutKase said: "I would hope that PCGS un-poofs the thread and instead just locks it down as it is of value to future numismatic researchers following one of the greatest, and most perfect C/F in history."
One member posted a link to much/all (?) of TTTT's posts. IMO, his is the only new and important information.
As to this: "...one of the greatest, and most perfect C/F in history." I'll say it is one of the most famous in our country ONLY because of when it appeared (shortly after the first authentication service came into being), what it did to the way coins would be authenticated in the future, and because the mystery of a "signnature" linked two different counterfeits. I'm sure they were not the first fakes to be "marked" as such.
As to "most perfect," absolutely not. There are many candidates in the field of ancients that far surpassed Mr. Omega's work. For US coins, the perfect counterfeits are the Morgan dollars that deceived every Morgan dollar specialist, numismatic researcher, and professional authenticator for almost a century until one "seasoned" authenticator put the first 1896-Micro O coin he ever saw under a low power microscope. Poof!
Unfortunately, IMO the perfect counterfeit in this day and age has not been detected yet.
@Insider2:
" Unfortunately, IMO the perfect counterfeit in this day and age has not been detected yet. "
The original 40 +/- coins struck as alleged on US Mint dies, without the Omega, may never be discovered........because they are the perfect C/F. But it can be said that a coin struck on US Mint dies is not a C/F?
OINK
"The principal of his law firm told him to drop the case before he would get a funerary wreath at his door".
I never liked Funerals.
Pete
Agreed. The quality of the Omegas is good, but easily detected once you have two of them side by side so you can look for repeating marks.
Will chime in on this in a couple of days. Try not to get it poofed.
Given what they were doing with them, I wonder why they wouldn't just strike them over $20 Libs. They are already the right size and weight. Wouldn't it be much less work to start with essentially the correct planchet.
I still wish we knew what the hell had happened here.
I have to wonder. Even if the story details are largely made up, doesn't it seem possible (probable?) that the details were made up to support a story D'Antonio heard from his father or Bonanno? I mean, the Omega coins aren't that well known outside numismatic circles. The trigger for his Zodiac involvement was watching a show about the Zodiac killings. How would he have gotten on to the Omega story?
It's a little frustrating that we'll likely never know the truth.
That is an allegation without any proof. If you read the story as it evolved, he also claimed they cleaned rust off the dies and that the dies were breaking down as they were striking. It is unlikely they would have resulted in "perfect coins". Captain Henway is also looking at the collar issue.
One that was based upon defrauding collectors rather than creating legal tender from low cost metals instead of gold. 4T's story certainly deserves a critical review, but I find it sad that he was attacted and interrogated without specific cause.
I think if you could read the middle part of the thread, you'd see why it broke down. It wasn't from people attacking him initially. It started with people questioning details. 4T's responded petulantly and started repeatedly baiting posters, eventually me primarily, calling me "nitwit" or "nit" for asking questions such as "how did 11 year old Bonanno help Woodrow Wilson get re-elected"? His later posts had no new information and a lot of personal attacks. Even then, I never did anything except suggest that someone was posing as D'Antonio (a common suspicion, by the way).
You say "good investigators" ask questions rather than leveling accusations. That's what we TRIED to do. When the Wilson photo came up, several posters including myself simply suggested he was misremembering. He responded by doubling down on the Wilson story. When he said that the operation started in 1964 or 65, I pointed out that couldn't be correct because Bonanno was in hiding from October 1964 through most of 1966. Instead of suggesting that maybe it was 1967, he called me an idiot and doubled down on 1964/65 even though he couldn't have been home in Tucson because both the Feds and the mob were looking for him. That was the response we got to virtually every question.
Could I have been less pretentious in my responses? Yes. Should I have shut up and walked away? Probably. But I was interested in the topic and wanted to discuss it. Unfortunately, the credibility of the source was a significant issue because it was the only thing we could investigate and because there were some gaping inconsistencies [see the "age issue" above].
I'm sorry it ended that way for several reasons.
What you are asking me to believe is that the counterfeiters made forty "perfect" coins and then started knocking out "crap." The genuine dies to these coins have been mapped. There are no "perfect" HR counterfeits.
Decades ago, I may have given your theory some pause as there was a "wrench" in the die linkage UNTIL authenticators learned (RWB confirmed) that there was more than one medal press used to strike the HR coins at the Mint.
Even today, the market is filled with very crude "tourist junk" that most collectors discuss until it gets silly and extremely dangerous products that defy immediate detection. Since they are detected eventually, the are only "perfect" for a short period. Unlike the C/F Morgan's at the turn of the century.
Does anyone have any links to articles which offer alternative explanations for the creation of the Omega 1907 $20 High Reliefs?
Just as an aside, I did a little "Fun with Math!" last night to see how much 50 Pesos would have to be rolled down to produce a correct-weight $20 "planchet."
The diameter of a 50 pesos is 37.08 mm. Using the "pi radius squared" formula the area is 1,079.86 sq. mm.
The diameter of a $20 is 34.29. Using the formula the area is 923.47 sq. mm, approx. 85.5% the area of the 50 pesos.
If the 50 pesos coin were perfectly flat (but still unrolled) and you punched a 34.29 mm "planchet" out of it, it would weigh approx. 35.63 grams (41.6667 grams x 0.855). A $20 weighs 33.436 grams, so you would have to reduce the thickness of the 50 pesos by about 6.2% to get a $20 "planchet" of the right weight.
But of course a 50 pesos is not flat, and has raised designs concentrated near the centers. Punch a "planchet" out of it and it would weigh more than 35.64 grams. How much, I do not know, but let's say that you have to reduce the thickness of your 50 pesos by about 7% before you punch your "planchet" out of it. Then you could weigh it and adjust the weight with a file if necessary.
I do not know if rolling a 50 pesos down by 7% would obliterate the design of the 50 pesos enough to keep it from showing through on the overstrike. Obviously the raised designs would be compressed by more than 7%, but I think they would still be clearly visible, and would expect some of them to survive the overstriking.
Omega $20's have been well studied. I have never seen, or heard of, an understrike on an Omega $20.
TD
I agree Capt.- I've bought/sold the Omega's in the '70's and 80's,
as counterfeits, and I've never seen or heard of any understikes
on any of them.
And, as I mentioned twice in the 'gone' original thread, they
are not close to 50 Peso's in color - if they were, they would
have been more easily determined to be counterfeits, imo.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Perhaps Dan Carr can tell us what rolling a struck gold coin by about 7% in thickness would leave of the designs.
Insider2 posted an old ANA article by Hoskins that talked about them. The seemed to think they were Lebanese (?) in origin, but I'm not exactly sure why.
@dcarr He might also be able to weigh in on the general planchet issue. Is it easier to form planchets from raw gold, obliterate a design on an existing $20 Lib, or roll and trim a Mexican 50 peso? Or anything else he can think of.
In general, I think it would be hard for amateurs to strike the high relief coin on repurposed planchets. Even striking on new planchets for that coin would be challenging, wouldn't it? I mean, easier today with a 500 ton press. But on a 160 ton press, the Mint could barely pull it off in 1907 with all their collective experience.
@jmlanzaf said: "Insider2 posted an old ANA article by Hoskins that talked about them. The seemed to think they were Lebanese (?) in origin, but I'm not exactly sure why."
Probably because an ANA President had visited one of the shops striking counterfeits over in Lebanon and at the time most counterfeit gold was assumed to be only from that country. I think it was also because the gold counterfeits seen at that time (including the Omega's) looked the same.
Didn't you forget to call me an idiot while you were answering the question?
As Insider says, that was the best information available to counterfeit detectors in the 1970's. Many counterfeits did come out of Lebanon.
In an unrelated theme, I think I have the name of the Lebanese counterfeiter, but I cannot prove it. This will be the topic of a future article somewhere.
@CaptHenway said: "In an unrelated theme, I think I have the name of the Lebanese counterfeiter, but I cannot prove it. This will be the topic of a future article somewhere."
Does it begin with an "O?"
No.
Looks like both you and another poster know who the Lebanese counterfeiter might be. Perhaps you two should compare notes.
I know I know!.......the Lebanese counterfeiter was Danny Thomas.
Pete
From the linked story as archived from the original OP's Omega thread postings:
"There are some excellent experts on this thread with top notch credentials. I have two very simple questions that only require a yes or no answer.
1 I want to buy a 1907 high relief double eagle for $250,000. I want it to be authenticated so I don't get ripped off. It has no omega symbol, no intertwined worm marks and no unusual die characteristics. It does have an off tone color like Omegas and I am nervous. Will you professionally authenticate it as genuine or not...yes or no?"
.....
"My father and Bonanno believed the coin experts of the day
were FAKES. You keep defending the experts despite the fact that over 19,000 coins were sold to
the public at a cost of 200-300 million. "
.....
" ..... nearly 20,000 fake coins were sold for hundreds of millions of dollars."
Out of curiosity I tracked down a 1971 edition of the Redbook to find out just what a 1907 High Relief Saint Gaudens was going for at that time. As I anticipated, even a proof was only valued at $2,500.00. Obviously no one was paying $250,000 a coin back in 1971, but conceivably after the asserted initial run of a few dozen (proofs?) with the asserted garbage dump sourced dies, if there were subsequently 19,000 of the Omega signed coins produced, and simply sold as "uncirculated," that could have added up to a tidy sum.
@northcoin "1 I want to buy a 1907 high relief double eagle for $250,000. I want it to be authenticated so I don't get ripped off. It has no omega symbol, no intertwined worm marks and no unusual die characteristics. It does have an off tone color like Omegas and I am nervous. Will you professionally authenticate it as genuine or not...yes or no?"
According to 4T, about forty +/- coins were struck with US Mint dies, but on Mexican gold. The Omega C/F's are obvious, and too many here are focused on the "obvious" Omega C/F's. But there may exist C/F's struck on US Mint dies on Mexican gold, and the color is off. Great Question northcoin.
OINK
While I'm not one of those you asked to reply, I say NUTS! Didn't happen. You know what, in the last fifteen years, I've seen two counterfeit HR coins that are not Omega's so who knows. The color of their gold was normal though. I also saw an Omega with the "mark" scratched out. LOL.
PS I did hear a story in the 1980's that the US mint gave the dies to make normal $20 (date ?) coins to the Russians and they struck coins that are indistinguishable. I don't believe it
Perhaps the Mexican $50 pieces were not paid for in cash.
Lance.
??? I'm not sure the point. Cash or no cash, a $20 Lib would have cost $35-$40 and saved days or weeks of work. Upconverted to $2500, the cost of the $20 lib would be minor while the effort to try and roll and trim and adjust the weight of the 50 Pesos was significant.
Striking them over AU $20 Saints would have made more sense, but either Libs or Saints, those would have had to have been purchased in the U.S. (or smuggled in from Switzerland), and a purchase of that size might have attracted attention and left a paper trail. Remember that Henning got caught making his nickels through the company that supplied him his planchets.
Not saying that either happened. Just considering the possible consequences if it had.
Fred, when was it first possible for you to go to Switzerland and buy $20's in quantity? Did you have to declare them upon entry back into the U.S.?
Yes, we had to declare the quantity of
each denomination, and value.
I never, with one exception, carried coins
with me from my Euro trips back to L.A. -
because even if I declared 50 coins, let's say,
on my customs form, customs would have
taken them from me because of the quantity.
We had a customs broker at LAX who cleared
all of our shipments (mostly Lufthansa, direct
flights from Zurich), and he would have had
to clear those coins taken from me - but that
would have taken a few extra days, and his
fee's.
It was just a lot easier to put them all in the
shipment, and have him clear everything at
once.
By the way, I never saw, or heard of any Omega
HR being offered as Proofs; I also, as stated in
the other (gone) thread, that I do not believe
there were anywhere near 20K pieces that ever
were on the market (of Omega's).
And, to those who might ask about the
'one exception' mentioned in my 2nd paragraph -
Because of the metal, the condition, the importance
of it - the only coin I ever recall carrying with me
on a flight back from Europe (gold or silver) was
the (now MS-67) 1794 Half Cent I bought in 1978.
I was VERY concerned that US Customs at LAX might look
at that coin, take it out of the flip, and touch it !
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Fred might declare his $20's, would the Mafia?
They smuggled in 160 ton coin press from Argentina (allegedly). How hard would it be to smuggle in a few hundred $20s?
>
None of that math ever added up. Even if you sold 20,000 coins at 2,000 each (twice your red book), that only gets you to $40 million not the $200-300 million. And 4T's also posted that there were many left unsold at the time they closed up shop.
The odd thing about the Omegas is the $20s. The $3's had to be much easier to strike and potentially more lucrative as a result.
The existence of the $3s also suggests that the ability to create dies - unless you think they also stole $3 dies from the Mint. So, what was the source of the gold for the $3's. If we believe 4T's story, it could have been from peso leftovers. But, if they had the ability to form planchets from shavings, they wouldn't need to roll out pesos and trim them anyway, would they?
@FredWeinberg
"By the way, I never saw, or heard of any Omega
HR being offered as Proofs; I also, as stated in
the other (gone) thread, that I do not believe
there were anywhere near 20K pieces that ever
were on the market (of Omega's)."
Thanks for reposting here. Had you suggested they were in the 100s, not 1000s?
What were the gold ownership regulations prior to 1972 with respect to Mexican 50 pesos? Would they have been legal? I recall that gold coins dated after 1945 were banned.
I don't think they were legal. All gold was covered by the 1933 ban, wasn't it? In fact, I once had a gold slug with paperwork from a Canadian depository (I'm in NY, a border state) which indicated that they specialized in holding gold for Americans. The slug was literally a 1 ounce bullet shaped blob with no other markings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
By the way, the legal status of gold is another problem with the legal advice in 4T's story. He claims his father told Bonanno that putting an omega on the coins prevented a charge of counterfeiting. But simply possessing that quantity of gold was possibly a federal offense. And given Bonanno was a known member of organized crime, they might have prosecuted him over it even if they might not have bothered with a regular citizen, cf. Capone and tax evasion.
For the mob, import regulations were likely not a problem.
...in the 'under world' I've learned that nothing is impossible, legal or not, simply because our laws do not apply to these figure heads.
I'm still a firm believer that 90% of the gold counterfeits we see being sold in the US originated somewhere in the middle east.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
But first they would have to buy the coins, and that could create a paper trail.
why doesn't the same apply to the 50 Pesos?
Pretty sure that Mexico is next door to Arizona
Easy smuggling and readily available pesos
AFAIK when gold was banned, it had nothing to do with vintage collector coins. The government told folks to turn in their gold coins. Many did but it should be obvious that everyone did not. As a child, my grandfather proudly showed me his hidden stash of gold coins which included two Sesqui $2 1/2 he got at the Expo for his wife and my dad. At the time he thought he had broken the law as he had kept them hidden after the ban. It was not until I became much older and interested in coins that I learned folks could keep a "collection."
PAPER??? We ain't got no stinkin paper!
Pete
Yes, in my opinion, there might have been
up to a few hundred of the Omega's but
certainly not 500 of them, or 20,000.
And, although it wasn't till the very late
'70s/early 80's, the company I worked
for used to sell large quantities of Mexico
50 Pesos to a Mexican national, who was
an importer/exporter of other things, including
the purest, smoothest Tequila I've ever had.
(I still have one sealed bottle of it at home -
' Invincible ' was the name of it.)
I mention this because he was buying these
in 1,000 to 2,000 piece quantities to SMUGGLE
INTO MEXICO -
Why? - because there was a 13% or 15% 'tax'
IN Mexico for the sale of 50 Pesos (and all other
Mexican bullion coins), and by buying them in
the States, and smuggling them into Mexico,
he could sell them, make a nice profit, and
save the buyer most (but probably not all! )
of the 13%-15% tax at the time.
By the way, when we delivered the coins to
him in San Diego, he would always give us
a bottle or two of this Invincible Tequila -
we would keep a bottle of it in our Vault
Room, and at first, because of the novelty of
it, we would drink a bit of in styrofoam cups -
straight ! It was so smooth, we didn't need
a lime to cut it - we'd drink it out of the cup
as poured! Smooth, tasty.......
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
They smuggled a coin press from Argentina. Easy to smuggle in a few gold coins from Europe. It was the Mafia.
This is true. But if you read the wikipedia thread. Some of the few prosecutions that occured included "sale quantities" of gold coins, from a jeweler no less.
http://tequilamatchmaker.com/tequilas/5387-tequila-la-invencible-blanco
Just to be clear - there are no "proof" MCMVII high relief double eagles and never were.