<< <i>While we are on Phone numbers. The Cleveland Indians ticket office has the best number in the world, I chuckle everytime I call it (216) 420-HITS
Should be the personal number for Cheech and Chong >>
lol, I just called that number a couple weeks ago (asking about Snowdays). funny stuff.
<< <i>Yes, I agree, there's no reason whatsoever to cancel the games.
Canceling the games isn't going to help the abused kids. Besides, playing the games will generate more revenue for Penn State which can enable them to give a bit more money to hopefully give the kids.
As most know by now, i was up there at Happy Valley my junior and senior year...and I immensely enjoyed the experience. Other than the usual "surprises" from a kid being away from home for the first time and meeting people from all walks of life, having just hung around with my drinking, gambling and greaser buddies from high school and the only real knowledge I had was how to play poker and work on my Chevy Nova, as well as knowing all the local bars who would serve underage kids looking to buy beer - LOL...what struck me then and does today is the amazing amount of charity work done by the student body up at Penn State.
I tried to Google it and see where Penn State was ranked in this regard, but couldn't find anything...but certainly every weekend and also usually continuing during the weekdays as well, there were always an extraordinary amount of charity functions going on. Other colleges may be equal in this regard, but I don't see how they could be better. Penn State was generous in their charity work far beyoind my expectations, and I know they still do it to this day, as my fraternity has a number of charity events throughout the year generating thousands of dollars. All this I feel needs to be noted considering the Penn State bashing going on by the haters out there during this difficult time for Penn State. >>
For all the bashers/haters out there please do not forget the charity work of The Second Mile.
It IS Progressive Field after all... a company with CEO Peter B. Lewis, being a well known Marijuana supporter, donated $3M to the Marijuana Policy Project. WIKI
<< <i>Yikes, Nebraska AD Tom Osborne is telling Husker fans not to wear red for their own safety.
Fat chance that will happen -- those 8,000 fans will create thier own little "sea of red" like they always do. >>
Why the heck would anyone need to worry about their safety by being identified as Husker fans? Is he expecting the PSU fans to suddenly go scorched Earth??
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<< <i>Yikes, Nebraska AD Tom Osborne is telling Husker fans not to wear red for their own safety.
Fat chance that will happen -- those 8,000 fans will create thier own little "sea of red" like they always do. >>
Why the heck would anyone need to worry about their safety by being identified as Husker fans? Is he expecting the PSU fans to suddenly go scorched Earth?? >>
Yea, I think that's a little bit silly...the crowd will be rooting hard for Penn State, not only because this is a big game, but also in light of the turbulent problems from this week. That being said, I'm sure some haters out there could find a few incidents on the internet whereby Penn State fans were raucous towards other school's fans at Beaver Stadium, but that is not the norm.
Particularly because of the sad events of this week, I think the Penn State students will go out of their way to show courtesy and friendship towards the Nebraska fans. There will be no problems whatsoever, or at the worst perhaps maybe a few problems from a few drunks.
Today's news is that McQuery is getting threats. This is very sad if all this guy did was report a horrible incident to his superior.
Lou Holtz was trying to convince Mark May that McQuery did the right thing by reporting this to his superior. May said he should have gone to the police. Again, educators are taught to report this stuff to the proper authorities, and those authorities are the people who are higher then you in the educational field. McQuery just followed protocol. The Mark May's and Ed Schultz's of this world aren't educated enought to understand this.
So now we have a situation where Sandusky is not on everyone's attack list, but McQuery and Paterno are. How convienent it is to go after the innocent. We have a situation unfolding where Jopa could die from stress, and McQuery could commit suicide because of all this negative hatred unnecessarily being sent their way. If you don't believe it, then just ask the Vietnam War Vets who came back to our country feeling like a hero, and realized that they were hated by their own people.
Jopa has committed no crime, yet he's been fired by the university without explanation. Franco Harris said last night he is very upset that Jopa couldn't finish the season, while crackpot Ed Schultz said all three remaining Penn State games should be cancelled, thus violating all the rights of the innocent football players and innocent fans. That's right Ed, let's violate more people because of this horrible incident. Let's damage more innocent people to prove a point. Ed is the type of teacher that when one kid acts up in gym class, he'd make the entire class sit in the corner for three days because of one kid's bad behavior. There are teachers like that, and Ed is one of them. Totally clueless people when it comes to proper thinking.
<< <i>Today's news is that McQuery is getting threats. This is very sad if all this guy did was report a horrible incident to his superior.
Lou Holtz was trying to convince Mark May that McQuery did the right thing by reporting this to his superior. May said he should have gone to the police. Again, educators are taught to report this stuff to the proper authorities, and those authorities are the people who are higher then you in the educational field. McQuery just followed protocol. The Mark May's and Ed Schultz's of this world aren't educated enought to understand this.
So now we have a situation where Sandusky is not on everyone's attack list, but McQuery and Paterno are. How convienent it is to go after the innocent. We have a situation unfolding where Jopa could die from stress, and McQuery could commit suicide because of all this negative hatred unnecessarily being sent their way. If you don't believe it, then just ask the Vietnam War Vets who came back to our country feeling like a hero, and realized that they were hated by their own people.
Jopa has committed no crime, yet he's been fired by the university without explanation. Franco Harris said last night he is very upset that Jopa couldn't finish the season, while crackpot Ed Schultz said all three remaining Penn State games should be cancelled, thus violating all the rights of the innocent football players and innocent fans. That's right Ed, let's violate more people because of this horrible incident. Let's damage more innocent people to prove a point. Ed is the type of teacher that when one kid acts up in gym class, he'd make the entire class sit in the corner for three days because of one kid's bad behavior. There are teachers like that, and Ed is one of them. Totally clueless people when it comes to proper thinking. >>
Morning!!!! First of all, SteveK...NO ONE on television is hotter than Juliet Huddy! They need to drop Gretchen Carlson (no offense Gretchen) and bring back Juliet Huddy. SMOKING HOT!!!
Second...edmundfitz, do you not grasp the severity of the situation? Children were hurt and raped on school property and it was covered up or dismissed. This should outrage you. But all you seem to care about is playing football, sending Paterno off in grand style and promoting McQueary up the ladder.
I agree that teachers are taught to report things to the proper authorities....but how many teachers actually witness a child being raped by a co-worker? I would guess barely any.
How dare they fire people and make those poor, poor football players suffer just because some kids got raped.
<< <i> Second...edmundfitz, do you not grasp the severity of the situation? Children were hurt and raped on school property and it was covered up or dismissed. This should outrage you. But all you seem to care about is playing football, sending Paterno off in grand style and promoting McQueary up the ladder.
. >>
First of all, it is an outrage, and I hope this guy Sandusky gets what he deserved. Perhaps a little "violation" should come his way in prison, so he can understand what these kids went through.
However, you must understand that I almost suffered from being falsely accused of this type of incident. I had to face criminal investigators concerning this very subject, and until you understand what it's like to be falsely charged with something you didn't do, (and especially a horrible crime like this), then I ask you to understand that protecting the innocent is something I will always champion for. Jopa and McQueary did what they are trained to do. They reported it to the proper school authority. The school president is the one who dropped the ball.
There are many innocent people serving prison time right now. Perhaps some people here need to experience going to jail as an innocent man before commenting on McQueary and Paterno.
<< <i> Children were hurt and raped on school property and it was covered up or dismissed.. >>
And here's what you don't understand yet. The school president covered it up based on the current evidence we have. Jopa and McQueary followed the proper, legal channels that they were trained to do.
The outrage should go towards the president. In the educational field, he/she has the responsibility of reporting these things. Educators are taught not to call the police, but to bring it to the school principal, or college chancellor.
Jopa and McQueary did not "cover up" this incident. They went through the proper channels based on how they were trained.
If you want to blame anything, then blame the training they received.
Well, I am sorry that you were ever mixed up in something so sickening as a false accusation. I can't imagine what you must have gone through.
But also consider where I'm coming from: where it was happening to someone I know and care about and people looked the other way. Decades later, I still think about it daily and it makes me so mad and sad that sometimes I am still overcome (even though the victim has moved on to a normal healthy life). I have zero tolerance and pity for anyone involved and when Paterno says:
"It is one of the great sorrows of my life. In hindsight, I should have done more"
....then, in my eyes, he just admitted that HE KNEW and didn't do more!
I'm not saying put him in jail yet...but if the investigation proves he willingly participated in covering up Sandusky's actions...then yes, send him to jail. Along with all the others. The most frustrating things for me is to see Penn State proceed with the game this week, promote a 30-year employee to head coach, not fire or place on leave mcQueary. If they want to be taken seriously, these things need to happen IN MY OPINION. They also need to remove everyone from the football program who has been on staff since 1994 - and prosecute them if they can tie them to a cover-up. Short of that, Penn State comes across as being more concerned about having that almighty cash flowing in. And I view it as a slap in the face of all the victims and their families.
<< <i> Children were hurt and raped on school property and it was covered up or dismissed.. >>
And here's what you don't understand yet. The school president covered it up based on the current evidence we have. Jopa and McQueary followed the proper, legal channels that they were trained to do.
The outrage should go towards the president. In the educational field, he/she has the responsibility of reporting these things. Educators are taught not to call the police, but to bring it to the school principal, or college chancellor.
Jopa and McQueary did not "cover up" this incident. They went through the proper channels based on how they were trained.
If you want to blame anything, then blame the training they received. >>
Bullchit. Most normal people would have at least tried to get a 10 YEAR OLD BOY away from that monster, and if they did not beat the crap out of the old man, at least resisted the urge to do so.
EM, You bring up Lou Holtz yet neglect to include that he said Paterno did not do enough. Did not ask the right questions of McQueary, and did not follow up when someone he brought into his family (Penn State football) was accused of inappropriate contact with a child. Lou Holtz ran a program as big if not bigger than Penn State and also won a national championship in football yet I didn't hear him say that he would have been too busy to follow up. That he would have left it entirely in the hands of school administrators.
I also was accused of doing something i didn't do. It is truly a helpless feeling when something comes down to your word against the word of someone else and your future literally hangs in the balance. However I don't see how this is a similar situation, this isn't someone's word against Paterno's as far as I can tell. With the information we have now Paterno did not do enough. Those that think he did seem to be morally tone deaf. Or to be fair perhaps you are simply waiting to find out more about what Paterno knew and did before making any judgment. Going forward I don't think we will hear anything that isn't self serving or "lawyered" up from any of those involved.
My father was a DA and read the grand jury report. He said the case against Sandusky is pretty much airtight, too many victims and corroborating witnesses. Normally these cases are the word of children against the accuser but with the witnesses he expects a plea deal at some point. Sandusky will not be in the general population since child molesters are literally the lowest of the low in prison and his safety would be in jeopardy.
As a grad assistant McQueary isn't an educator, as far as I know neither is Paterno since as Stevek said he is a "FOOTBALL COACH".
Seems like on the news stations who have the competent reporters and analysts, perhaps around 40% were pro-Paterno and 60% anti-Paterno based on what he did. Most of what they stated we had already discussed and thoroughly covered. It's like they read and regurgitated our thread. LOL
It's sad when this sordid story happens to be my school in the frying pan, but it is what it is so ya just deal with it. I imagine this drama will go on for some time and may not end possibly for years, particularly the civil actions. I agree the kids are gonna get well compensated as they should, but some defense attorneys on TV were talking tens of millions per kid?, come on now, that isn't going to happen...I think it will windup about a million for each kid...that's still a lot of money and the kids can receive great counseling and other benefits with that kind of money.
It was mentioned about "Jopa could die from stress, and McQuery could commit suicide" two interesting points, sadly interesting. I agree with that about Paterno, he hasn't been looking too good lately anyway, he's a fighter but he's 84 years old and at that age I think you've only got so much fight left in ya, i hope he reaches 100 years old or more, but I dunno at this point. As far as McQuery, i know very little about him personally but can't see a suicide with him, but ya never know, some people commit suicide over much lesser things.
Everybody, everybody on TV stated that Paterno did the right thing legally, except for one defense attorney who raised a few inane questions which reminded me of what they teach in law school for first year students to get up in front of the class and explain to the class why this chair is not a chair. Yes the object of the lesson is supposed to be to learn creative type thinking, but in my opinion, law school turns too many students into educated liars and societal parasites, instead of servants for justice.
Of course the main debate is was Paterno morally wrong or right in what he did, and I suspect similar to the abortion issue, this debate may go on for many years and never be resolved to the satisfaction of those who believe Paterno was morally wrong. Doesn't bother me in the least because unless Paterno says otherwise, I believe he was right all around in every aspect based on the situation and circumstances.
Yet the haters still aren't happy...Paterno is fired, his career devastated, an icon of society tarnished and disgraced and he didn't even break the law, and correctly followed all the legal state and university procedures. Paterno has already figuratively gotten 10 lashes of the whip but the haters lustily scream "More, More, More"...how many more lashes do the haters want for the 84 year old man? 20, 30, 40, 50 or more?
I think it is grasping to call off the dogs because he is a 84 year old man. If that man was healthy enough to run a major football program then he needs to accept the responsibilities when things do not go well. That is the risk when having that job. JoePa had a chance to retire at any point in the last twenty years and chose to stay on. He will have to fight this whether right or wrong, although I do think "he should have done MUCH more."
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Fergie.... I agree that Jopa did not do enough. I also am convinced that he followed the letter of the law to a T.
Keepitwarm.....I understand your anger and frustration at people who do not do enough to stop this crap. You must understand that my own blood brother accused me of doing this same thing to his kid. The day they were going to bring it out in the open, his wife's brother (who lived with them due to a gambling addiction) committed suicide. My brother couldn't put 1 and 1 together, and believed his wife that I was the culprit based on a one time visit to our home. Never did he think that her brother who committed suicide, lived with them, and had a gambling addiction did it. Go figure.
Next, my wife and I took in a friend who had a drug addiction. Even watched his kid for free while he got back on his feet. Didn't charge him a penny of rent. Next thing you know, it happens again. Detectives and all. My wife, my life, and my children hang in the balance because of this drug addict.
So yes, Jopa didn't do enough. McQuery didn't do enough, but they followed the letter of the law, and why they are fired for not following the letter of the law is beyond me.
Let me add this. If you and I are fighting in Afghanistan after 9/11, and we are scouts, and see 10 of our buddies get mauled by 20 Afghan fighters, and we have 100 US Troops behind us, do we yell "CHARGE THE MOTHER &&((*", or do we go to our superior officer and let him know that we have them outnumbered ? In other words, there is protocol in certain situations that has to be followed. Although I will admit that there are grey areas, and McQueary should have done more, but he had a weak moment, that he'll later regret, but he still didn't commit a crime, and a court of law will prove him and Jopa innocent based on the current information.
<< <i> Bullchit. Most normal people would have at least tried to get a 10 YEAR OLD BOY away from that monster, and if they did not beat the crap out of the old man, at least resisted the urge to do so. >>
Have you ever been in that situation ? Then how can you say ? What if you saw 6'6 Larry Bird doing that in a shower to a little boy. What would you do ? I guess you would go over and try to beat the cr*p out of him, but a young coach on the Celtics may have a weak moment (that he would later regret), but if he reported it, then he followed the law.
When I read the presentment a few days ago the piece that got me was kids staying with him the night before home games.
The team stayed at a local golf resort. The kids stayed in the same room with him, ate with him at the coaches table, etc. He took them to bowl games.
All under the guise of being a good role model.
Can't tell me that those close to him on the team did not suspect something. This guy played for PSU, was a grad assistant, and then a coach. Sure, no one really knew him!?!?
<< <i>Fergie.... I agree that Jopa did not do enough. I also am convinced that he followed the letter of the law to a T.
Keepitwarm.....I understand your anger and frustration at people who do not do enough to stop this crap. You must understand that my own blood brother accused me of doing this same thing to his kid. The day they were going to bring it out in the open, his wife's brother (who lived with them due to a gambling addiction) committed suicide. My brother couldn't put 1 and 1 together, and believed his wife that I was the culprit based on a one time visit to our home. Never did he think that her brother who committed suicide, lived with them, and had a gambling addiction did it. Go figure.
Next, my wife and I took in a friend who had a drug addiction. Even watched his kid for free while he got back on his feet. Didn't charge him a penny of rent. Next thing you know, it happens again. Detectives and all. My wife, my life, and my children hang in the balance because of this drug addict.
So yes, Jopa didn't do enough. McQuery didn't do enough, but they followed the letter of the law, and why they are fired for not following the letter of the law is beyond me.
Let me add this. If you and I are fighting in Afghanistan after 9/11, and we are scouts, and see 10 of our buddies get mauled by 20 Afghan fighters, and we have 100 US Troops behind us, do we yell "CHARGE THE MOTHER &&((*", or do we go to our superior officer and let him know that we have them outnumbered ? In other words, there is protocol in certain situations that has to be followed. Although I will admit that there are grey areas, and McQueary should have done more, but he had a weak moment, that he'll later regret, but he still didn't commit a crime, and a court of law will prove him and Jopa innocent based on the current information. >>
Gambling addiction actually has the highest suicide rate, and attempted suicide rate of any other addiction. Of course the con artists and hustlers out there who promote and profit off pushing online poker and sports betting, besides the exploitation involved of underage children, there is the suicide factor as well. Most of the public doesn't understand how dangerous is gambling addiction, and how deadly it can be for a multitude of reasons, which is why creating awareness about the addiction is very important.
Frankly anyone who deplores what Sandusky did and we all agree on that...but goes right ahead and pushes illegal internet gambling, is at the least being disingenuous, and also themselves run the risk of going to jail for contributing to the deliquency of a minor as well as other violations of the law. How these pushers can look in the mirror at themselves I don't know because they know that some percentage of their affiliate commission customers are going to be underage children. I guess the money is more important to them than the kid's lives, which to me is repugnant and despicable, as well as unacceptable.
You mentioned drug addiction as well, and those wanting to legalize these hard core drugs, which would result in countless more drug addicts and deaths, frankly are also non-caring about the exploitation of children who also get addicted to these horrendous drugs. But of course it's all about the money to them and they couldn't care less about how many people's lives they harm and destroy.
Sorry to hear about the terrible tragedies in your family, but thanks for the post because creating awareness about these addictions is so vitally important not only to protect our children against predators and exploitation, but to help adults as well.
<< <i> OMG... I had to stop reading. No effing way... >>
Unreal, isn't it ?
Now I'm no trial lawyer, but I've heard you're innocent until PROVEN guilty. How are they going to PROVE this guy is guilty ? All they have are a couple eyewitness testimonies. Do they have any convicting type evidence ? I don't know.
He's already said he's innocent. It's basically his word against the accusers, unless there are photographs, letters, or anything on his hard drive on his computer that can incriminate him. Not sure if testimonies alone can do it.
If anyone hasn't read Barry Switzer's comments on this, they need to. Granted, Switzer if the poster boy for programs out of control, but his take that everyone on the staff had to know is interesting reading coming from someone who knows how staffs work when secrets are being hushed up.
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I couldn't read it either, I got to page 2 and figured what was coming and have no desire to continue reading. I respect those who have to hold their nose and bite their lip while reviewing and typing all this malignant filth.
Now that the smoke has cleared a little bit, it's almost surreal and hard to believe that one (alleged) maggot pervert could do all this damage to an esteemed school and football program...and of course too many kid's lives. We must do whatever we can to make sure it doesn't happen again...a good start: tougher jail sentences for first time offenders, and much tougher jail sentences for repeat offenders, life if necessary because I don't believe these vermin can be rehabilitated - only very old age will cure them of their sick desires...so maybe we can have some compassion for them and let them out of jail when they are 125 years old.
Even Sandusky, if he gets out when he's 125 years old, that might be okay...alright, let's make it 150 years old to be safe.
To paraphrase an often-quoted line: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
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<< <i>To paraphrase an often-quoted line: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." >>
That's a great quote, and one of my favorites. It's mostly associated with the Holocaust, but of course it can be meaningful for any situation involving evil such as slavery, the systematic extermination of our Native Americans, and some other horrific points in history.
An excellent quote for your side here, and it may get those on my side rethinking a bit.
<< <i>I agree that teachers are taught to report things to the proper authorities....but how many teachers actually witness a child being raped by a co-worker? I would guess barely any. >>
If a child comes to them with information that they are being abused, then the teachers' proper action is to report it to the chain of command.
However, teachers have a duty to get the student immeditely out of harms way(or at least attempt to, even if the attempt is to send for immediate help) when it is happening in their presence and in their facility. You can't just walk away from it.
Edmund, I share that fear of his word against theirs. I sure hope that doesn't happen.
<< <i>Today's news is that McQuery is getting threats. This is very sad if all this guy did was report a horrible incident to his superior.
Lou Holtz was trying to convince Mark May that McQuery did the right thing by reporting this to his superior. May said he should have gone to the police. Again, educators are taught to report this stuff to the proper authorities, and those authorities are the people who are higher then you in the educational field. McQuery just followed protocol. The Mark May's and Ed Schultz's of this world aren't educated enought to understand this.
So now we have a situation where Sandusky is not on everyone's attack list, but McQuery and Paterno are. How convienent it is to go after the innocent. We have a situation unfolding where Jopa could die from stress, and McQuery could commit suicide because of all this negative hatred unnecessarily being sent their way. If you don't believe it, then just ask the Vietnam War Vets who came back to our country feeling like a hero, and realized that they were hated by their own people.
Jopa has committed no crime, yet he's been fired by the university without explanation. Franco Harris said last night he is very upset that Jopa couldn't finish the season, while crackpot Ed Schultz said all three remaining Penn State games should be cancelled, thus violating all the rights of the innocent football players and innocent fans. That's right Ed, let's violate more people because of this horrible incident. Let's damage more innocent people to prove a point. Ed is the type of teacher that when one kid acts up in gym class, he'd make the entire class sit in the corner for three days because of one kid's bad behavior. There are teachers like that, and Ed is one of them. Totally clueless people when it comes to proper thinking. >>
Is anyone still operating under the assumption that Edmundfitzgerald and Stevek are different people? I'll continue to assume they are one in the same.
Sure, Paternos actions(or inactions) aren't a crime. But they are certainly worthy of him being removed from his job where he is a caretaker of young people. They are also certainly worthy of removing the word "honor" as an adjective when describing him...which ironically is one of their words used when recruiting kids.
<< <i> OMG... I had to stop reading. No effing way... >>
Unreal, isn't it ?
Now I'm no trial lawyer, but I've heard you're innocent until PROVEN guilty. How are they going to PROVE this guy is guilty ? All they have are a couple eyewitness testimonies. Do they have any convicting type evidence ? I don't know.
He's already said he's innocent. It's basically his word against the accusers, unless there are photographs, letters, or anything on his hard drive on his computer that can incriminate him. Not sure if testimonies alone can do it. >>
Good god, if he did not do these things, then this is the biggest framing in the history of makind, coordinated by all of PSU and dozens of victims, all lying to get Sandusky. The judge probably let him out on low bail hoping he would put a pistol in his mouth and fire, but looks like this is not gonna happen.
It is obvious that you will never understand why Paterno was fired(or needed to be fired and have his character put into question)...I guess it is a good thing you are not in decision making positions where other people are greatly affected by your decisions.
<< <i>following the law to a T and being an advocate for those who cant for themselves is entirely different...
if that makes you sleep better or feel better about yourself...
good for you... >>
I guess some of you here feel that you are above the law. If that makes you sleep better at night, then so be it. Jopa followed the law. He is not a criminal, nor being charged as one. Jopa did not know all the things that we now know. You know things that Jopa didn't. Sandusky is like any other pervert. They are masters at hiding their craft. I am not suprised that anyone but Sandusky knew what was really going on. These perverts can hide it from their wives, their children, and their close friends. They are masters at their craft.
It is obvious that you will never understand why Paterno was fired(or needed to be fired and have his character put into question)...I guess it is a good thing you are not in decision making positions where other people are greatly affected by your decisions. >>
It's also obvious to Franco Harris, and millions of other people too. Jopa did not know what we now know, reported what he did know to an authority, and did not commit any crime, nor is being charged for one. How in God's name can someone be fired for doing what he was trained to do ? He did absolutely 100% what educators are trained to do. He reported it to his superior. His superior dropped the ball on this one.
<< <i> Second...edmundfitz, do you not grasp the severity of the situation? Children were hurt and raped on school property and it was covered up or dismissed. This should outrage you. But all you seem to care about is playing football, sending Paterno off in grand style and promoting McQueary up the ladder.
. >>
First of all, it is an outrage, and I hope this guy Sandusky gets what he deserved. Perhaps a little "violation" should come his way in prison, so he can understand what these kids went through.
However, you must understand that I almost suffered from being falsely accused of this type of incident. I had to face criminal investigators concerning this very subject, and until you understand what it's like to be falsely charged with something you didn't do, (and especially a horrible crime like this), then I ask you to understand that protecting the innocent is something I will always champion for. Jopa and McQueary did what they are trained to do. They reported it to the proper school authority. The school president is the one who dropped the ball.
There are many innocent people serving prison time right now. Perhaps some people here need to experience going to jail as an innocent man before commenting on McQueary and Paterno. >>
I too know what it's like to be an abuse victim, a scapegoat, and wrongly accused of horrible things (my last job I was wrongly accused of racial profiling and the previous one I was wrongly accused of sexual harassment), as well as trying to come forward as a victim of abuse (by my parents as well as my last employer) and having no one believe you or take you seriously. And let's not forget the so-called "friends" and "loved ones" who you expect to be in your corner turn again you when you didn't do anything wrong, yet nothing is done to the real wrongdoers. Now do you folks understand why for the past year I've had major suicidal thoughts (I don't think I would've actually followed through; I got my wife/little girl to think about, but it's still very scary for that sort of thing to be going on in your head in addition to the flashbacks.
Dude, you can count on me being on your side. I too know what it's like. While I join with everyone else and hope the victim gets proper justice, I commend you for doing the not-so-easy part in standing up for those who otherwise may have no one in their corner. I agree that Joe Paterno didn't handle the situation perfectly but he does not deserve to have his 40+ years of legacy and reputation go up in flames.
Edmund, I share that fear of his word against theirs. I sure hope that doesn't happen. >>
I've heard that they need incriminating evidence. In other words, two million children could walk into a court of law and tell the judge that Sandusky did evil things to them, but unless their is clear and convincing incriminating evidence, then there is no case. That is pathetic, but I believe it's true.
However, he failed as a leader and caretaker of chidren, and that is why he was fired and why his character is not as good as many thought.
. >>
He did not fail as a leader and caretaker of children. He did what he was trained to do. He was trained to report these type of things to the president of the university. That is what he did (as far as we know).
<< <i> Is anyone still operating under the assumption that Edmundfitzgerald and Stevek are different people? I'll continue to assume they are one in the same. >>
However, he failed as a leader and caretaker of chidren, and that is why he was fired and why his character is not as good as many thought.
. >>
He did not fail as a leader and caretaker of children. He did what he was trained to do. He was trained to report these type of things to the president of the university. That is what he did (as far as we know). >>
Are you serious? He knew that he molested kids, knew that he was still around his program and with kids, and he looked the other way. That was Paterno's house!
THere is an old saying that good leaders always have...
As I have learned more about this scandal, it appears to me that what has happened is:
That as people became aware of Sandusky's sexual abuse of children, they reported same to their superiors. These people reacted to these reports by providing altered and "sanitized" versions of the reported events to their superiors, who in turn did the same. Further, the "higher ups" to whom the initial and subsequent reports were made were faced with a dilema. Either they inform the police, prosecuting authorities and/or media (aka, "go public") in an attempt to stop Sandusky from doing further harm; or they keep things quiet in order to not see and suffer the consequences (to them, to the football program, to the university and to the community) of going public. As reports continued to go higher up the chain of command (at the Athletic Dept., at the University and in the community, including police investigators), higher ups likely told (either directly or indirectly) the reporting subordinates to keep their mouths shut to not rock the boat (and if they kept their mouths shut they would be rewarded instead of punished). These higher ups further evaluated things and intentionally decided to keep things quiet, to downplay things and to discourage further investigation for one reason, specifically to protect their turf/image [Penn State Football, its lofty reputation of being above reproach and the multimillion dollar business enterprise it is].
No one who saw what was going on and no one to whom Sandusky's crimes were reported wanted to be a traitor to PSU and its football program. So instead of taking a stand against sexual abuse of children by Sandusky, they chose to remian mute.
Now that the story has broken, all of those people who could have (and morally should have) spoken up are going to be scrambling to find "cover" and someone that they can point the finger of blame at.
Sports scandals are ever present at the youth, high school, college, professional, Olympic and international level. This scandal over Sandusky and PSU's football program is much more high profile than many others that have preceeded it (i.e. USC's recent football and basketball scandals involving payments to athletes) in large part due to the nature of the scandal (child abuse) and the public image of PSU and its football program. Media attention to this scandal will not go away anytime soon. It will be like a hungry junkyard dog who just got his teeth into a steak. Politicians and police authorities will have no choice but to investigate, prosecute, convict and incarcerate. PSU wil have no choice but to investigate and clean house (as they have already done quickly with the firing of the coach and university president).
I hope that if Sandusky is guilty of abusing children that he gets sent away to prison for the rest of his life and that he becomes the abused intead of the abuser.
There's a movie quote that seems apropos to this situatuion as it pertains to Paterno et.al.
In the movie "A Few Good Men"... after the trial ends and the two Marines defended by Tom Cruise's character are cleared of murder but still are given dishonorable discharges...
One Marine looks to the other and says..."What did we do wrong? We did nothing wrong."
The other replies-"Yeah, we did. We were supposed to fight for the people who couldn't fight for themselves. "
It is obvious that you will never understand why Paterno was fired(or needed to be fired and have his character put into question)...I guess it is a good thing you are not in decision making positions where other people are greatly affected by your decisions. >>
We understand your viewpoint but your viewpoint doesn't matter and neither does mine or edmundfitzgerald's as far as what decision we would have made, which is what I've been trying to express for two days. It's a question of putting yourself in Joe Paterno's shoes, considering his situation and circumstances, and then making the analysis. Expressing how "we" all would have done it is basically an exercise in futility particularly because Paterno did everything legal.
Yes, people get fired for "moral" reasons and in fact advertising and pro athlete contracts and other contracts, there are morality clauses in there in which even if the employees didn't do anything illegal, they can still be fired for moral reasons. Heck I would imagine if ya refuse to wear the Burger King hat for Buger King, they would likely fire you.
You're another one here who, no offense intended at all, it's just to make a point...probably didn't live on a large college campus and doesn't truly understand campus life (you can correct me if I'm wrong) - I had forgotten about this until edmundfitzgerald brought it up in a earlier post about suicide. My fraternity was located near a high rise apartment complex at Penn State, and I forget how many, but at least a few students every year would take a high flyer off I think it was the 12th floor, and there were sometimes other suicides on the campus thru other ways. Let's be honest, as bad as this child molestation is, suicide is worse. Add to that drug addiction overdoses and near death or death, car accidents, etc, etc, etc, and now perhaps you understand better life on a major college campus. This wasn't a concern while I was there, but now and back in 2002 there are possible threats of some religious fanatic shooting up the college campus. likely other new problems as well...and on top of that worrying about all that crap for his players, walk-ons, etc...he's gotta run a major college football program and other responsibilities. So...the guy comes in and tells him that Sandusky was doing things to a kid in the shower, a guy who wasn't even on Paterno's staff any more, Paterno reported it to the university administrator who Paterno had to figure would call the police. Yes, I'll say it again Paterno was busy, but not to busy enough to do the right legal thing, following college protocall and the law, to take care of the problem.
Those are the circumstances and that is what happened...if Paterno's actions weren't good enough for you then it wasn't good enough for you. But in no way, shape or form can you possibly understand what it was like to be in Joe's shoes, and i don't fully understand it either...but for sure I understand it better than you...and ya know what...the students there understaod it better than you as well which is precisely why they rallied in such strong support of Joe.
Comments
<< <i>While we are on Phone numbers. The Cleveland Indians ticket office has the best number in the world, I chuckle everytime I call it (216) 420-HITS
Should be the personal number for Cheech and Chong >>
lol, I just called that number a couple weeks ago (asking about Snowdays). funny stuff.
<< <i>Yes, I agree, there's no reason whatsoever to cancel the games.
Canceling the games isn't going to help the abused kids. Besides, playing the games will generate more revenue for Penn State which can enable them to give a bit more money to hopefully give the kids.
As most know by now, i was up there at Happy Valley my junior and senior year...and I immensely enjoyed the experience. Other than the usual "surprises" from a kid being away from home for the first time and meeting people from all walks of life, having just hung around with my drinking, gambling and greaser buddies from high school and the only real knowledge I had was how to play poker and work on my Chevy Nova, as well as knowing all the local bars who would serve underage kids looking to buy beer - LOL...what struck me then and does today is the amazing amount of charity work done by the student body up at Penn State.
I tried to Google it and see where Penn State was ranked in this regard, but couldn't find anything...but certainly every weekend and also usually continuing during the weekdays as well, there were always an extraordinary amount of charity functions going on. Other colleges may be equal in this regard, but I don't see how they could be better. Penn State was generous in their charity work far beyoind my expectations, and I know they still do it to this day, as my fraternity has a number of charity events throughout the year generating thousands of dollars. All this I feel needs to be noted considering the Penn State bashing going on by the haters out there during this difficult time for Penn State. >>
For all the bashers/haters out there please do not forget the charity work of The Second Mile.
<< <i>I'm going to bed. I need to get up bright and early to watch Fox & Friends.
---GASP!!! Did he say Fox & Friends? A Right Wing Network?!? Could SteveK have been wrong???
Gretchen Carlson certainly is a sight for sore eyes in the morning - I see her on the tube and I don't need any coffee. LOL
Fat chance that will happen -- those 8,000 fans will create thier own little "sea of red" like they always do.
<< <i>Yikes, Nebraska AD Tom Osborne is telling Husker fans not to wear red for their own safety.
Fat chance that will happen -- those 8,000 fans will create thier own little "sea of red" like they always do. >>
Why the heck would anyone need to worry about their safety by being identified as Husker fans? Is he expecting the PSU fans to suddenly go scorched Earth??
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<< <i>
<< <i>Yikes, Nebraska AD Tom Osborne is telling Husker fans not to wear red for their own safety.
Fat chance that will happen -- those 8,000 fans will create thier own little "sea of red" like they always do. >>
Why the heck would anyone need to worry about their safety by being identified as Husker fans? Is he expecting the PSU fans to suddenly go scorched Earth?? >>
Yea, I think that's a little bit silly...the crowd will be rooting hard for Penn State, not only because this is a big game, but also in light of the turbulent problems from this week. That being said, I'm sure some haters out there could find a few incidents on the internet whereby Penn State fans were raucous towards other school's fans at Beaver Stadium, but that is not the norm.
Particularly because of the sad events of this week, I think the Penn State students will go out of their way to show courtesy and friendship towards the Nebraska fans. There will be no problems whatsoever, or at the worst perhaps maybe a few problems from a few drunks.
Lou Holtz was trying to convince Mark May that McQuery did the right thing by reporting this to his superior. May said he should
have gone to the police. Again, educators are taught to report this stuff to the proper authorities, and those authorities are the
people who are higher then you in the educational field. McQuery just followed protocol. The Mark May's and Ed Schultz's of this
world aren't educated enought to understand this.
So now we have a situation where Sandusky is not on everyone's attack list, but McQuery and Paterno are. How convienent
it is to go after the innocent. We have a situation unfolding where Jopa could die from stress, and McQuery could commit
suicide because of all this negative hatred unnecessarily being sent their way. If you don't believe it, then just ask the Vietnam
War Vets who came back to our country feeling like a hero, and realized that they were hated by their own people.
Jopa has committed no crime, yet he's been fired by the university without explanation. Franco Harris said last night he is very upset that Jopa couldn't finish the season, while crackpot Ed Schultz said all three remaining Penn State games should be cancelled, thus violating
all the rights of the innocent football players and innocent fans. That's right Ed, let's violate more people because of this horrible
incident. Let's damage more innocent people to prove a point. Ed is the type of teacher that when one kid acts up in gym class,
he'd make the entire class sit in the corner for three days because of one kid's bad behavior. There are teachers like that, and
Ed is one of them. Totally clueless people when it comes to proper thinking.
<< <i>Today's news is that McQuery is getting threats. This is very sad if all this guy did was report a horrible incident to his superior.
Lou Holtz was trying to convince Mark May that McQuery did the right thing by reporting this to his superior. May said he should
have gone to the police. Again, educators are taught to report this stuff to the proper authorities, and those authorities are the
people who are higher then you in the educational field. McQuery just followed protocol. The Mark May's and Ed Schultz's of this
world aren't educated enought to understand this.
So now we have a situation where Sandusky is not on everyone's attack list, but McQuery and Paterno are. How convienent
it is to go after the innocent. We have a situation unfolding where Jopa could die from stress, and McQuery could commit
suicide because of all this negative hatred unnecessarily being sent their way. If you don't believe it, then just ask the Vietnam
War Vets who came back to our country feeling like a hero, and realized that they were hated by their own people.
Jopa has committed no crime, yet he's been fired by the university without explanation. Franco Harris said last night he is very upset that Jopa couldn't finish the season, while crackpot Ed Schultz said all three remaining Penn State games should be cancelled, thus violating
all the rights of the innocent football players and innocent fans. That's right Ed, let's violate more people because of this horrible
incident. Let's damage more innocent people to prove a point. Ed is the type of teacher that when one kid acts up in gym class,
he'd make the entire class sit in the corner for three days because of one kid's bad behavior. There are teachers like that, and
Ed is one of them. Totally clueless people when it comes to proper thinking. >>
Morning!!!!
First of all, SteveK...NO ONE on television is hotter than Juliet Huddy! They need to drop Gretchen Carlson (no offense Gretchen) and bring back Juliet Huddy. SMOKING HOT!!!
Second...edmundfitz, do you not grasp the severity of the situation? Children were hurt and raped on school property and it was covered up or dismissed. This should outrage you. But all you seem to care about is playing football, sending Paterno off in grand style and promoting McQueary up the ladder.
I agree that teachers are taught to report things to the proper authorities....but how many teachers actually witness a child being raped by a co-worker? I would guess barely any.
How dare they fire people and make those poor, poor football players suffer just because some kids got raped.
<< <i>
Second...edmundfitz, do you not grasp the severity of the situation? Children were hurt and raped on school property and it was covered up or dismissed. This should outrage you. But all you seem to care about is playing football, sending Paterno off in grand style and promoting McQueary up the ladder.
. >>
First of all, it is an outrage, and I hope this guy Sandusky gets what he deserved. Perhaps a little "violation" should come
his way in prison, so he can understand what these kids went through.
However, you must understand that I almost suffered from being falsely accused of this type of incident. I had to face criminal
investigators concerning this very subject, and until you understand what it's like to be falsely charged with something you
didn't do, (and especially a horrible crime like this), then I ask you to understand that protecting the innocent is something
I will always champion for. Jopa and McQueary did what they are trained to do. They reported it to the proper school
authority. The school president is the one who dropped the ball.
There are many innocent people serving prison time right now. Perhaps some people here need to experience going to
jail as an innocent man before commenting on McQueary and Paterno.
<< <i> Children were hurt and raped on school property and it was covered up or dismissed.. >>
And here's what you don't understand yet. The school president covered it up based on the current evidence we have.
Jopa and McQueary followed the proper, legal channels that they were trained to do.
The outrage should go towards the president. In the educational field, he/she has the responsibility of reporting these things.
Educators are taught not to call the police, but to bring it to the school principal, or college chancellor.
Jopa and McQueary did not "cover up" this incident. They went through the proper channels based on how they were trained.
If you want to blame anything, then blame the training they received.
Joe Freakin' McCarthy.
I am amazed.
It's not often you get to see someone jump a second shark.
But also consider where I'm coming from: where it was happening to someone I know and care about and people looked the other way. Decades later, I still think about it daily and it makes me so mad and sad that sometimes I am still overcome (even though the victim has moved on to a normal healthy life). I have zero tolerance and pity for anyone involved and when Paterno says:
"It is one of the great sorrows of my life. In hindsight, I should have done more"
....then, in my eyes, he just admitted that HE KNEW and didn't do more!
I'm not saying put him in jail yet...but if the investigation proves he willingly participated in covering up Sandusky's actions...then yes, send him to jail. Along with all the others. The most frustrating things for me is to see Penn State proceed with the game this week, promote a 30-year employee to head coach, not fire or place on leave mcQueary. If they want to be taken seriously, these things need to happen IN MY OPINION. They also need to remove everyone from the football program who has been on staff since 1994 - and prosecute them if they can tie them to a cover-up. Short of that, Penn State comes across as being more concerned about having that almighty cash flowing in. And I view it as a slap in the face of all the victims and their families.
<< <i>
<< <i> Children were hurt and raped on school property and it was covered up or dismissed.. >>
And here's what you don't understand yet. The school president covered it up based on the current evidence we have.
Jopa and McQueary followed the proper, legal channels that they were trained to do.
The outrage should go towards the president. In the educational field, he/she has the responsibility of reporting these things.
Educators are taught not to call the police, but to bring it to the school principal, or college chancellor.
Jopa and McQueary did not "cover up" this incident. They went through the proper channels based on how they were trained.
If you want to blame anything, then blame the training they received. >>
Bullchit. Most normal people would have at least tried to get a 10 YEAR OLD BOY away from that monster, and if they did not beat the crap out of the old man, at least resisted the urge to do so.
You bring up Lou Holtz yet neglect to include that he said Paterno did not do enough. Did not ask the right questions of McQueary, and did not follow up when someone he brought into his family (Penn State football) was accused of inappropriate contact with a child. Lou Holtz ran a program as big if not bigger than Penn State and also won a national championship in football yet I didn't hear him say that he would have been too busy to follow up. That he would have left it entirely in the hands of school administrators.
I also was accused of doing something i didn't do. It is truly a helpless feeling when something comes down to your word against the word of someone else and your future literally hangs in the balance. However I don't see how this is a similar situation, this isn't someone's word against Paterno's as far as I can tell. With the information we have now Paterno did not do enough. Those that think he did seem to be morally tone deaf. Or to be fair perhaps you are simply waiting to find out more about what Paterno knew and did before making any judgment. Going forward I don't think we will hear anything that isn't self serving or "lawyered" up from any of those involved.
My father was a DA and read the grand jury report. He said the case against Sandusky is pretty much airtight, too many victims and corroborating witnesses. Normally these cases are the word of children against the accuser but with the witnesses he expects a plea deal at some point. Sandusky will not be in the general population since child molesters are literally the lowest of the low in prison and his safety would be in jeopardy.
As a grad assistant McQueary isn't an educator, as far as I know neither is Paterno since as Stevek said he is a "FOOTBALL COACH".
Robb
It's sad when this sordid story happens to be my school in the frying pan, but it is what it is so ya just deal with it. I imagine this drama will go on for some time and may not end possibly for years, particularly the civil actions. I agree the kids are gonna get well compensated as they should, but some defense attorneys on TV were talking tens of millions per kid?, come on now, that isn't going to happen...I think it will windup about a million for each kid...that's still a lot of money and the kids can receive great counseling and other benefits with that kind of money.
It was mentioned about "Jopa could die from stress, and McQuery could commit suicide" two interesting points, sadly interesting. I agree with that about Paterno, he hasn't been looking too good lately anyway, he's a fighter but he's 84 years old and at that age I think you've only got so much fight left in ya, i hope he reaches 100 years old or more, but I dunno at this point. As far as McQuery, i know very little about him personally but can't see a suicide with him, but ya never know, some people commit suicide over much lesser things.
Everybody, everybody on TV stated that Paterno did the right thing legally, except for one defense attorney who raised a few inane questions which reminded me of what they teach in law school for first year students to get up in front of the class and explain to the class why this chair is not a chair. Yes the object of the lesson is supposed to be to learn creative type thinking, but in my opinion, law school turns too many students into educated liars and societal parasites, instead of servants for justice.
Of course the main debate is was Paterno morally wrong or right in what he did, and I suspect similar to the abortion issue, this debate may go on for many years and never be resolved to the satisfaction of those who believe Paterno was morally wrong. Doesn't bother me in the least because unless Paterno says otherwise, I believe he was right all around in every aspect based on the situation and circumstances.
Yet the haters still aren't happy...Paterno is fired, his career devastated, an icon of society tarnished and disgraced and he didn't even break the law, and correctly followed all the legal state and university procedures. Paterno has already figuratively gotten 10 lashes of the whip but the haters lustily scream "More, More, More"...how many more lashes do the haters want for the 84 year old man? 20, 30, 40, 50 or more?
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Keepitwarm.....I understand your anger and frustration at people who do not do enough to stop this crap. You must
understand that my own blood brother accused me of doing this same thing to his kid. The day they were going to bring it
out in the open, his wife's brother (who lived with them due to a gambling addiction) committed suicide. My brother couldn't
put 1 and 1 together, and believed his wife that I was the culprit based on a one time visit to our home. Never did he think
that her brother who committed suicide, lived with them, and had a gambling addiction did it. Go figure.
Next, my wife and I took in a friend who had a drug addiction. Even watched his kid for free while he got back on his feet.
Didn't charge him a penny of rent. Next thing you know, it happens again. Detectives and all. My wife, my life, and my children
hang in the balance because of this drug addict.
So yes, Jopa didn't do enough. McQuery didn't do enough, but they followed the letter of the law, and why they are
fired for not following the letter of the law is beyond me.
Let me add this. If you and I are fighting in Afghanistan after 9/11, and we are scouts, and see 10 of our buddies get mauled
by 20 Afghan fighters, and we have 100 US Troops behind us, do we yell "CHARGE THE MOTHER &&((*", or do we go to
our superior officer and let him know that we have them outnumbered ? In other words, there is protocol in certain situations
that has to be followed. Although I will admit that there are grey areas, and McQueary should have done more, but
he had a weak moment, that he'll later regret, but he still didn't commit a crime, and a court of law will prove him and
Jopa innocent based on the current information.
<< <i>
Bullchit. Most normal people would have at least tried to get a 10 YEAR OLD BOY away from that monster, and if they did not beat the crap out of the old man, at least resisted the urge to do so. >>
Have you ever been in that situation ? Then how can you say ? What if you saw 6'6 Larry Bird doing that in a shower to a little
boy. What would you do ? I guess you would go over and try to beat the cr*p out of him, but a young coach on the Celtics may
have a weak moment (that he would later regret), but if he reported it, then he followed the law.
Sickening
Victim 4, page 14 is unreal, tragic, sickening, and any other word you can think of.
The team stayed at a local golf resort. The kids stayed in the same room with him, ate with him at the coaches table, etc. He took them to bowl games.
All under the guise of being a good role model.
Can't tell me that those close to him on the team did not suspect something. This guy played for PSU, was a grad assistant, and then a coach. Sure, no one really knew him!?!?
<< <i>Here is the full account of Sandusky's sick lifestyle.
Sickening
Victim 4, page 14 is unreal, tragic, sickening, and any other word you can think of. >>
OMG... I had to stop reading. No effing way...
<< <i>Fergie.... I agree that Jopa did not do enough. I also am convinced that he followed the letter of the law to a T.
Keepitwarm.....I understand your anger and frustration at people who do not do enough to stop this crap. You must
understand that my own blood brother accused me of doing this same thing to his kid. The day they were going to bring it
out in the open, his wife's brother (who lived with them due to a gambling addiction) committed suicide. My brother couldn't
put 1 and 1 together, and believed his wife that I was the culprit based on a one time visit to our home. Never did he think
that her brother who committed suicide, lived with them, and had a gambling addiction did it. Go figure.
Next, my wife and I took in a friend who had a drug addiction. Even watched his kid for free while he got back on his feet.
Didn't charge him a penny of rent. Next thing you know, it happens again. Detectives and all. My wife, my life, and my children
hang in the balance because of this drug addict.
So yes, Jopa didn't do enough. McQuery didn't do enough, but they followed the letter of the law, and why they are
fired for not following the letter of the law is beyond me.
Let me add this. If you and I are fighting in Afghanistan after 9/11, and we are scouts, and see 10 of our buddies get mauled
by 20 Afghan fighters, and we have 100 US Troops behind us, do we yell "CHARGE THE MOTHER &&((*", or do we go to
our superior officer and let him know that we have them outnumbered ? In other words, there is protocol in certain situations
that has to be followed. Although I will admit that there are grey areas, and McQueary should have done more, but
he had a weak moment, that he'll later regret, but he still didn't commit a crime, and a court of law will prove him and
Jopa innocent based on the current information. >>
Gambling addiction actually has the highest suicide rate, and attempted suicide rate of any other addiction. Of course the con artists and hustlers out there who promote and profit off pushing online poker and sports betting, besides the exploitation involved of underage children, there is the suicide factor as well. Most of the public doesn't understand how dangerous is gambling addiction, and how deadly it can be for a multitude of reasons, which is why creating awareness about the addiction is very important.
Frankly anyone who deplores what Sandusky did and we all agree on that...but goes right ahead and pushes illegal internet gambling, is at the least being disingenuous, and also themselves run the risk of going to jail for contributing to the deliquency of a minor as well as other violations of the law. How these pushers can look in the mirror at themselves I don't know because they know that some percentage of their affiliate commission customers are going to be underage children. I guess the money is more important to them than the kid's lives, which to me is repugnant and despicable, as well as unacceptable.
You mentioned drug addiction as well, and those wanting to legalize these hard core drugs, which would result in countless more drug addicts and deaths, frankly are also non-caring about the exploitation of children who also get addicted to these horrendous drugs. But of course it's all about the money to them and they couldn't care less about how many people's lives they harm and destroy.
Sorry to hear about the terrible tragedies in your family, but thanks for the post because creating awareness about these addictions is so vitally important not only to protect our children against predators and exploitation, but to help adults as well.
<< <i>
OMG... I had to stop reading. No effing way... >>
Unreal, isn't it ?
Now I'm no trial lawyer, but I've heard you're innocent until PROVEN guilty. How are they going to PROVE this
guy is guilty ? All they have are a couple eyewitness testimonies. Do they have any convicting type evidence ?
I don't know.
He's already said he's innocent. It's basically his word against the accusers, unless there are photographs, letters,
or anything on his hard drive on his computer that can incriminate him. Not sure if testimonies alone can do it.
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Now that the smoke has cleared a little bit, it's almost surreal and hard to believe that one (alleged) maggot pervert could do all this damage to an esteemed school and football program...and of course too many kid's lives. We must do whatever we can to make sure it doesn't happen again...a good start: tougher jail sentences for first time offenders, and much tougher jail sentences for repeat offenders, life if necessary because I don't believe these vermin can be rehabilitated - only very old age will cure them of their sick desires...so maybe we can have some compassion for them and let them out of jail when they are 125 years old.
Even Sandusky, if he gets out when he's 125 years old, that might be okay...alright, let's make it 150 years old to be safe.
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<< <i>To paraphrase an often-quoted line: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." >>
That's a great quote, and one of my favorites. It's mostly associated with the Holocaust, but of course it can be meaningful for any situation involving evil such as slavery, the systematic extermination of our Native Americans, and some other horrific points in history.
An excellent quote for your side here, and it may get those on my side rethinking a bit.
I hate to say it but A+ with a gold star.
<< <i>I agree that teachers are taught to report things to the proper authorities....but how many teachers actually witness a child being raped by a co-worker? I would guess barely any. >>
If a child comes to them with information that they are being abused, then the teachers' proper action is to report it to the chain of command.
However, teachers have a duty to get the student immeditely out of harms way(or at least attempt to, even if the attempt is to send for immediate help) when it is happening in their presence and in their facility. You can't just walk away from it.
Edmund, I share that fear of his word against theirs. I sure hope that doesn't happen.
It said that Sandusky had boys eating dinner with him at the coach's table?
When did that occur, and which coach's were present?
if that makes you sleep better or feel better about yourself...
good for you...
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<< <i>Today's news is that McQuery is getting threats. This is very sad if all this guy did was report a horrible incident to his superior.
Lou Holtz was trying to convince Mark May that McQuery did the right thing by reporting this to his superior. May said he should
have gone to the police. Again, educators are taught to report this stuff to the proper authorities, and those authorities are the
people who are higher then you in the educational field. McQuery just followed protocol. The Mark May's and Ed Schultz's of this
world aren't educated enought to understand this.
So now we have a situation where Sandusky is not on everyone's attack list, but McQuery and Paterno are. How convienent
it is to go after the innocent. We have a situation unfolding where Jopa could die from stress, and McQuery could commit
suicide because of all this negative hatred unnecessarily being sent their way. If you don't believe it, then just ask the Vietnam
War Vets who came back to our country feeling like a hero, and realized that they were hated by their own people.
Jopa has committed no crime, yet he's been fired by the university without explanation. Franco Harris said last night he is very upset that Jopa couldn't finish the season, while crackpot Ed Schultz said all three remaining Penn State games should be cancelled, thus violating
all the rights of the innocent football players and innocent fans. That's right Ed, let's violate more people because of this horrible
incident. Let's damage more innocent people to prove a point. Ed is the type of teacher that when one kid acts up in gym class,
he'd make the entire class sit in the corner for three days because of one kid's bad behavior. There are teachers like that, and
Ed is one of them. Totally clueless people when it comes to proper thinking. >>
Is anyone still operating under the assumption that Edmundfitzgerald and Stevek are different people? I'll continue to assume they are one in the same.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
That is where these guys are failing miserably.
Sure, Paternos actions(or inactions) aren't a crime. But they are certainly worthy of him being removed from his job where he is a caretaker of young people. They are also certainly worthy of removing the word "honor" as an adjective when describing him...which ironically is one of their words used when recruiting kids.
<< <i>
<< <i>
OMG... I had to stop reading. No effing way... >>
Unreal, isn't it ?
Now I'm no trial lawyer, but I've heard you're innocent until PROVEN guilty. How are they going to PROVE this
guy is guilty ? All they have are a couple eyewitness testimonies. Do they have any convicting type evidence ?
I don't know.
He's already said he's innocent. It's basically his word against the accusers, unless there are photographs, letters,
or anything on his hard drive on his computer that can incriminate him. Not sure if testimonies alone can do it. >>
Good god, if he did not do these things, then this is the biggest framing in the history of makind, coordinated by all of PSU and dozens of victims, all lying to get Sandusky. The judge probably let him out on low bail hoping he would put a pistol in his mouth and fire, but looks like this is not gonna happen.
It is obvious that you will never understand why Paterno was fired(or needed to be fired and have his character put into question)...I guess it is a good thing you are not in decision making positions where other people are greatly affected by your decisions.
<< <i>following the law to a T and being an advocate for those who cant for themselves is entirely different...
if that makes you sleep better or feel better about yourself...
good for you... >>
I guess some of you here feel that you are above the law. If that makes you sleep better at night, then so be it.
Jopa followed the law. He is not a criminal, nor being charged as one. Jopa did not know all the things that we now know.
You know things that Jopa didn't. Sandusky is like any other pervert. They are masters at hiding their craft. I am not suprised
that anyone but Sandusky knew what was really going on. These perverts can hide it from their wives, their children, and
their close friends. They are masters at their craft.
<< <i>Edmund and SteveK,
It is obvious that you will never understand why Paterno was fired(or needed to be fired and have his character put into question)...I guess it is a good thing you are not in decision making positions where other people are greatly affected by your decisions. >>
It's also obvious to Franco Harris, and millions of other people too. Jopa did not know what we now know, reported what he did know to an authority, and did not commit any crime, nor is being charged for one. How in God's name can someone be fired for doing what he was
trained to do ? He did absolutely 100% what educators are trained to do. He reported it to his superior. His superior dropped
the ball on this one.
However, he failed as a leader and caretaker of chidren, and that is why he was fired and why his character is not as good as many thought.
No, it doesn't surprise me that someone like Franco Harris won't understand either. I'm sure a lot of the knuckle draggers won't.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Second...edmundfitz, do you not grasp the severity of the situation? Children were hurt and raped on school property and it was covered up or dismissed. This should outrage you. But all you seem to care about is playing football, sending Paterno off in grand style and promoting McQueary up the ladder.
. >>
First of all, it is an outrage, and I hope this guy Sandusky gets what he deserved. Perhaps a little "violation" should come
his way in prison, so he can understand what these kids went through.
However, you must understand that I almost suffered from being falsely accused of this type of incident. I had to face criminal
investigators concerning this very subject, and until you understand what it's like to be falsely charged with something you
didn't do, (and especially a horrible crime like this), then I ask you to understand that protecting the innocent is something
I will always champion for. Jopa and McQueary did what they are trained to do. They reported it to the proper school
authority. The school president is the one who dropped the ball.
There are many innocent people serving prison time right now. Perhaps some people here need to experience going to
jail as an innocent man before commenting on McQueary and Paterno. >>
I too know what it's like to be an abuse victim, a scapegoat, and wrongly accused of horrible things (my last job I was wrongly accused of racial profiling and the previous one I was wrongly accused of sexual harassment), as well as trying to come forward as a victim of abuse (by my parents as well as my last employer) and having no one believe you or take you seriously. And let's not forget the so-called "friends" and "loved ones" who you expect to be in your corner turn again you when you didn't do anything wrong, yet nothing is done to the real wrongdoers. Now do you folks understand why for the past year I've had major suicidal thoughts (I don't think I would've actually followed through; I got my wife/little girl to think about, but it's still very scary for that sort of thing to be going on in your head in addition to the flashbacks.
Dude, you can count on me being on your side. I too know what it's like. While I join with everyone else and hope the victim gets proper justice, I commend you for doing the not-so-easy part in standing up for those who otherwise may have no one in their corner. I agree that Joe Paterno didn't handle the situation perfectly but he does not deserve to have his 40+ years of legacy and reputation go up in flames.
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<< <i>
Edmund, I share that fear of his word against theirs. I sure hope that doesn't happen. >>
I've heard that they need incriminating evidence. In other words, two million children could walk into a court of law and
tell the judge that Sandusky did evil things to them, but unless their is clear and convincing incriminating evidence, then there
is no case. That is pathetic, but I believe it's true.
<< <i>
However, he failed as a leader and caretaker of chidren, and that is why he was fired and why his character is not as good as many thought.
. >>
He did not fail as a leader and caretaker of children. He did what he was trained to do. He was trained to report these type of
things to the president of the university. That is what he did (as far as we know).
<< <i>
Is anyone still operating under the assumption that Edmundfitzgerald and Stevek are different people? I'll continue to assume they are one in the same. >>
Two tools in the same shed!
<< <i>
<< <i>
However, he failed as a leader and caretaker of chidren, and that is why he was fired and why his character is not as good as many thought.
. >>
He did not fail as a leader and caretaker of children. He did what he was trained to do. He was trained to report these type of
things to the president of the university. That is what he did (as far as we know). >>
Are you serious? He knew that he molested kids, knew that he was still around his program and with kids, and he looked the other way. That was Paterno's house!
THere is an old saying that good leaders always have...
"Not on my watch!"
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<< <i>Someone clarify one of the above comments.
It said that Sandusky had boys eating dinner with him at the coach's table?
When did that occur, and which coach's were present? >>
Read the presentment. Victim #4.
That as people became aware of Sandusky's sexual abuse of children, they reported same to their superiors. These people reacted to these reports by providing altered and "sanitized" versions of the reported events to their superiors, who in turn did the same. Further, the "higher ups" to whom the initial and subsequent reports were made were faced with a dilema. Either they inform the police, prosecuting authorities and/or media (aka, "go public") in an attempt to stop Sandusky from doing further harm; or they keep things quiet in order to not see and suffer the consequences (to them, to the football program, to the university and to the community) of going public. As reports continued to go higher up the chain of command (at the Athletic Dept., at the University and in the community, including police investigators), higher ups likely told (either directly or indirectly) the reporting subordinates to keep their mouths shut to not rock the boat (and if they kept their mouths shut they would be rewarded instead of punished). These higher ups further evaluated things and intentionally decided to keep things quiet, to downplay things and to discourage further investigation for one reason, specifically to protect their turf/image [Penn State Football, its lofty reputation of being above reproach and the multimillion dollar business enterprise it is].
No one who saw what was going on and no one to whom Sandusky's crimes were reported wanted to be a traitor to PSU and its football program. So instead of taking a stand against sexual abuse of children by Sandusky, they chose to remian mute.
Now that the story has broken, all of those people who could have (and morally should have) spoken up are going to be scrambling to find "cover" and someone that they can point the finger of blame at.
Sports scandals are ever present at the youth, high school, college, professional, Olympic and international level. This scandal over Sandusky and PSU's football program is much more high profile than many others that have preceeded it (i.e. USC's recent football and basketball scandals involving payments to athletes) in large part due to the nature of the scandal (child abuse) and the public image of PSU and its football program. Media attention to this scandal will not go away anytime soon. It will be like a hungry junkyard dog who just got his teeth into a steak. Politicians and police authorities will have no choice but to investigate, prosecute, convict and incarcerate. PSU wil have no choice but to investigate and clean house (as they have already done quickly with the firing of the coach and university president).
I hope that if Sandusky is guilty of abusing children that he gets sent away to prison for the rest of his life and that he becomes the abused intead of the abuser.
In the movie "A Few Good Men"... after the trial ends and the two Marines defended by Tom Cruise's character are cleared of murder but still are given dishonorable discharges...
One Marine looks to the other and says..."What did we do wrong? We did nothing wrong."
The other replies-"Yeah, we did. We were supposed to fight for the people who couldn't fight for themselves. "
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<< <i>Edmund and SteveK,
It is obvious that you will never understand why Paterno was fired(or needed to be fired and have his character put into question)...I guess it is a good thing you are not in decision making positions where other people are greatly affected by your decisions. >>
We understand your viewpoint but your viewpoint doesn't matter and neither does mine or edmundfitzgerald's as far as what decision we would have made, which is what I've been trying to express for two days. It's a question of putting yourself in Joe Paterno's shoes, considering his situation and circumstances, and then making the analysis. Expressing how "we" all would have done it is basically an exercise in futility particularly because Paterno did everything legal.
Yes, people get fired for "moral" reasons and in fact advertising and pro athlete contracts and other contracts, there are morality clauses in there in which even if the employees didn't do anything illegal, they can still be fired for moral reasons. Heck I would imagine if ya refuse to wear the Burger King hat for Buger King, they would likely fire you.
You're another one here who, no offense intended at all, it's just to make a point...probably didn't live on a large college campus and doesn't truly understand campus life (you can correct me if I'm wrong) - I had forgotten about this until edmundfitzgerald brought it up in a earlier post about suicide. My fraternity was located near a high rise apartment complex at Penn State, and I forget how many, but at least a few students every year would take a high flyer off I think it was the 12th floor, and there were sometimes other suicides on the campus thru other ways. Let's be honest, as bad as this child molestation is, suicide is worse. Add to that drug addiction overdoses and near death or death, car accidents, etc, etc, etc, and now perhaps you understand better life on a major college campus. This wasn't a concern while I was there, but now and back in 2002 there are possible threats of some religious fanatic shooting up the college campus. likely other new problems as well...and on top of that worrying about all that crap for his players, walk-ons, etc...he's gotta run a major college football program and other responsibilities. So...the guy comes in and tells him that Sandusky was doing things to a kid in the shower, a guy who wasn't even on Paterno's staff any more, Paterno reported it to the university administrator who Paterno had to figure would call the police. Yes, I'll say it again Paterno was busy, but not to busy enough to do the right legal thing, following college protocall and the law, to take care of the problem.
Those are the circumstances and that is what happened...if Paterno's actions weren't good enough for you then it wasn't good enough for you. But in no way, shape or form can you possibly understand what it was like to be in Joe's shoes, and i don't fully understand it either...but for sure I understand it better than you...and ya know what...the students there understaod it better than you as well which is precisely why they rallied in such strong support of Joe.