<< <i> If it was a child of yours that was effected by this guy you would be calling for his head on a platter gimme a freakin break >>
No child of mine would ever hang out with a strange man. He would be next to his dad and mom, where he belongs. So take your freakin break somewhere else. I love my children, and would never leave them with anyone else. I trust no one. >>
Im glad to hear that ,I honestly am but again IF your child was involved you would be singing a different tune whether you want to avoid agreeing with it or not.
Put yourself in the parents shoes and listen to some blow hard like yourself saying its sad that people are crusifying the guy because you would turn nasty really quick so save us the bullchit
EF- I respectfully call BS on Paterno's version of the 2002 account. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>There are a few parallels between Colonel Jessup and Paterno. Both spent a life defending something, and were well decorated in doing so. Both were very well respected. And both made a single decision that ended with tragic consequences for others that were not strong enough to protect themselves. >>
Parallel? One aspect in which Colonel Jessup and Paterno are perpendicular is that one is fictional and the other is not. Another difference is that one is (fictionally) defending a nation, not an effing football program. What an absurd and obscene comparison.
<< <i>There are a few parallels between Colonel Jessup and Paterno. Both spent a life defending something, and were well decorated in doing so. Both were very well respected. And both made a single decision that ended with tragic consequences for others that were not strong enough to protect themselves. >>
Parallel? One aspect in which Colonel Jessup and Paterno are perpendicular is that one is fictional and the other is not. Another difference is that one is (fictionally) defending a nation, not an effing football program. What an absurd and obscene comparison. >>
Exactly.
And let me touch base on a post in here that suggests people are being hypocritical for "Shredding Paterno", I call BS on that all the way, most of us have at one time or another - stolen, lied, cheated, done a drug, drank and drived, punched someone ect, and dont judge others who have done the same and Im also pretty dam sure most of us that are "Shredding" Paterno would not allow child abuse to take place and lamely report it and forget it. So the hypocrisy refferance is completely out the window here as well.
<< <i><<<If it was a child of yours that was effected by this guy you would be calling for his head on a platter gimme a freakin break>>>
If that were my child, I wouldn't be calling for his head....I'd already be in jail for having killed the man. >>
Exactly..most parents including myself would. I missed it somewhere, but why didn't the mother in the 98 case continue to do that? and why in hell would the da's office and police not keep an eye on this POS?
<< <i><<<If it was a child of yours that was effected by this guy you would be calling for his head on a platter gimme a freakin break>>>
If that were my child, I wouldn't be calling for his head....I'd already be in jail for having killed the man. >>
I would bet $1000 that you would not kill the guy. In fact, I'd go so far as to bet that you would be more likely to kill a guy who abused someone else's child than you would be to kill someone who abused your own. And that's not meant as an insult, since I think I fall into that camp as well.
<< <i><<<If it was a child of yours that was effected by this guy you would be calling for his head on a platter gimme a freakin break>>>
If that were my child, I wouldn't be calling for his head....I'd already be in jail for having killed the man. >>
Exactly..most parents including myself would. I missed it somewhere, but why didn't the mother in the 98 case continue to do that? and why in hell would the da's office and police not keep an eye on this POS? >>
If these boys had low-functioning, single, black mothers (and it's starting to look that way) then you have to understand that you're talking about women who a) have never had much faith in law enforcement as a force for good in the world, and b) who don't have any idea what do next if they call the cops and nothing happens. I know this as a fact, as my wife used to work as a case manager in a welfare-to-work agency and knew a lot of women who fit this profile first-hand. Many of these moms just have no idea how to navigate their way effectively through entrenched power structures, and have no faith in their own ability to elicit swift and decisive action from the judicial system. They 'might' call the cops, though they're highly skeptical of the notion that a battalion of white guys are going to move heaven and Earth and champion the cause of their child. If things don't fall into place quickly after they make the phone call they assume (perhaps rightfully) that the world really doesn't care about their kids, or what happens to them, so they give it up.
I'll bet you that this Sandusky had this in mind when he chose his victims. You grope the kid of a soccer mom who makes $100K+ annually as an exec. at Chrysler and you're going to bring a whole new world of pain upon yourself if the kid tells his folks. You grope a kid who's mom is single, poorly educated, and 24 years old, and your chances are good that nothing will come of it. I'm guessing Sandusky is a very smart guy- you have to be if you're a defensive coordinator at the D1 level, since that's no place for dummies- and that he had this situation pegged as early as 1977.
<< <i><<<If it was a child of yours that was effected by this guy you would be calling for his head on a platter gimme a freakin break>>>
If that were my child, I wouldn't be calling for his head....I'd already be in jail for having killed the man. >>
I would bet $1000 that you would not kill the guy. In fact, I'd go so far as to bet that you would be more likely to kill a guy who abused someone else's child than you would be to kill someone who abused your own. And that's not meant as an insult, since I think I fall into that camp as well. >>
I ask myself time and time again how these Child Molesters end up in Jail, I think its true that most people say they would kill the guy but wouldnt do it. In my Jail there are hundreds of scumbags that have done heinous acts and show up to Jail without a sctratch on them.
<< <i><<<If it was a child of yours that was effected by this guy you would be calling for his head on a platter gimme a freakin break>>>
If that were my child, I wouldn't be calling for his head....I'd already be in jail for having killed the man. >>
I would bet $1000 that you would not kill the guy. In fact, I'd go so far as to bet that you would be more likely to kill a guy who abused someone else's child than you would be to kill someone who abused your own. And that's not meant as an insult, since I think I fall into that camp as well. >>
I ask myself time and time again how these Child Molesters end up in Jail, I think its true that most people say they would kill the guy but wouldnt do it. In my Jail there are hundreds of scumbags that have done heinous acts and show up to Jail without a sctratch on them. >>
If you're a parent and you grease the guy then your kid gets hit with a double whammy: Not only are they forced to bear the burden of guilt and shame that so often comes from being victimized in this manner, but they have to do it a) without their Dad there to support them, and b) with the gut feeling that they're responsible for the fact that their Dad is doing hard time in the state pen. Most parents probably recognize this at some point, which is why they let the justice system do its job.
The ugliness of people is really starting to annoy me with this story.
First it's the hypocritical bloggers, radio hosts, TV analysts, message board posters joyfully shredding Paterno. It's like Tiger Woods 2009 all over again, the sharks are in the water. These people have somehow convinced themselves that they are the morality police, ignoring any past sins that they may have committed, and fooling themselves into thinking they absolutely would have acted differently if in Paterno's shoes, when they can't possibly comprehend the parameters around which Paterno's actions were centered. It's easy to sit on your couch after the fact and criticize someone else's actions (or non-actions in this case), when the past is all laid out in front of you. It's a whole different story when you are living in the moment.
Somebody quoted A Few Good Men earlier....I like this quote from Colonel Jessup during his final monologue as a better analogy...."I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom."
There are a few parallels between Colonel Jessup and Paterno. Both spent a life defending something, and were well decorated in doing so. Both were very well respected. And both made a single decision that ended with tragic consequences for others that were not strong enough to protect themselves. >>
Politics is off limits at CU but nobody said anything about Hollywood so I'll continue because Keith PM'd me and said he needed some new material for another list he wanted to compose - He specifically asked if I could use some Gilligan's Island references so I'll try to use "little buddy" or the skipper" in a few sentences. LOL
It's interesting about the movies "A Few Good Men" and also "Wall Street" ...both directed by far left directors, one is very far left...yet conservatives love these two movies. They were intended to bash their subject matter, yet they wound up glorifying it in a way. And of course these two directors are highly intelligent individuals, and despite their premise of leaning to the left in these two movies, in a town (Hollywood) which everybody knows is left wing, money trumps ideology. So perhaps these guys knew exactly what they were doing making a film that the left and conservatives would enjoy, hence appealing to as wide an audience as possible, hence making the most money for them.
Not always, but Hollywood generally likes placing a happy ending on their movies. The directors often shoot at least a few different endings, and then show the movie with the different endings to preview audiences to see which gets the best response, before distributing the final picture. Somehow if the wicked witch would have killed Dorothy, I don't think the Wizard of Oz would have been quite as popular. LOL
The premise of jdip9 is spot on in my opinion. All the "geniuses" out there who think they "know" what they would have done in that situation are only fooling themselves because they can't know for sure. Crazy situations such as that sometimes ya never really know really how you would react. This is why I've stressed training in the thread...Paterno should have been trained better, the parents should have been trained better, and we all need to be trained better to create awareness about this terrible problem out there affecting too many kids.
Yes, we want to let kids be kids and have as normal a childhood as possible...and the silly comments about blaming the kids is just that, silly, but the kids do need to be trained as well. To illustrate...there are too many tragic instances of kids fooling around with firearms and accidentally shooting themselves or their friends. Some parents don't seem to want to confront their kids about death and other facts of life. i was trained very early in life with firearms, suffice to say, taught that if I fooled around with this dam thing it could kill myself or others. To this day when cleaning my firearms, before cleaning the barrels, I triple and quadruple check to make sure the gun isn't loaded. I check it, put it down for a few minutes, and repeat the procedure a few times so i have bascially a fresh look at it each time. Being overcautious? I don't think so. Being smart? Definitely...and I've never had a shooting accident. I use the same type of premise in my driving, caution, and I've logged millions of miles driving and have never been in an accident which was my fault, and the few accidents i've been in, were minimized because I drive cautiuously, defensively, and the times it happened i saw it coming and was able to brace myself and walked away basicallly unharmed.
I say this because I previously mentioned the parents responsibilty in all this. Parents need to and should do a better job making their children aware of the dangers in life and not try to coddle them too much. Explain how that dam gun can maim or kill you, explain to their teenager how that car can maim or kill you, even if you or the know-it-all teenager thinks it's obvious, still teach them defensive driving. And yes explain to your child that there are some bad people out there in this world who want to touch you in an uncomfortable bad way, and if that ever happens then you must tell Mommy and Daddy about it. When at the doctor, tell them it's okay for the doctor to do it, but not anybody else. Actions and words to that effect because life is not a Hollywood movie, it doesn't always have a happy ending as some good members here have told their personal stories about suicide and death with their friends and family, and I believe it helps them to heal, and helps us learn more about the problem. Hopefully at least some of these potential tragedies in the future can be prevented, again with better training and awareness about child abuse, and it begins in the home. Yes, make the changes at Penn State and elsewhere, I agree with that, but again, it starts in the home and must continue in the home.
So blame Paterno all ya want, keep him tied to the whipping post, and I guess that makes many out there feel good for a variety of reasons but he, personally, is not the problem. I can't get into Joe's head but again, we never can be sure how we will react to situation unless we are well informed and trained for that situation. I always stress practice for home owners to prepare if they confront a burglar, if there is a fire, if there is a choking child, etc...we must be prepared for these events otherwise the outcome may not have a happy ending.
I also mentioned "Michael Jackson" because who knows what goes thru someone's subconscious mind. This is just a pure guess...perhaps Joe saw how society treated Michael Jackson, and everybody knows what was going on there, and perhaps Joe again subconsciously or even consciously figured that why worry about it that much when someone like Michael Jackson is doing it basically openly. Maybe Joe figured if society doesn't give a chit about what Michael Jackson was doing...I'll follow the law, give the info to the university administrator, and that's it for me. And when the predators see what was going on with Michael Jackson, how late night talk show hosts made jokes about it, in my opinion it likely gives the predators encouragement. Michael Jackson could have been stopped early and he'd probably still be alive today, in prison, but alive, and Jerry Sandusky could have been stopped much earlier as well, with greater awareness that child abuse isn't funny, and it isn't acceptable the way too many seemed to accept it with Michael Jackson - it's dam serious and needs to be with the top of the list in priority.
Let me tell you...in my viewpoint, Michael Jackson should have been serving a long prison sentence...it's obvious to me that he bought his way out of justice being served, and that is despicable. Someone mentioned here that money would not help a child's recovery, but it sure as yell helped the mother who accepted the large settlement from Jackson, now didn't it? And after all that was known, how could parents send their children to play with Michael Jackson. Nobody wants to say this but sometimes the parents are the scumbags with their own children.
Well, I could type a lot more, and I'm not ending this post perfectly, but I'll end the post here.
You're right, because I'm the first person to ever compare real life to something that happened in book or in a movie....get over yourself.
and Boo, considering I've never even been in a fistfight in my life, you are probably right....but I think it's at least on the table. I won't pretend to know what my state of mind would be like if that were my son in the shower.
<< <i><<<What an absurd and obscene comparison.>>>
You're right, because I'm the first person to ever compare real life to something that happened in book or in a movie....get over yourself.
and Boo, considering I've never even been in a fistfight in my life, you are probably right....but I think it's at least on the table. I won't pretend to know what my state of mind would be like if that were my son in the shower. >>
Too true- let's hope neither of us are ever faced with that decision. The truly terrifying part of it is that the final decision could rest on something seemingly trivial; like whether or not we were having a bad day before we found out, or whether we were friends with the perpetrator. It's just impossible to know.
Moving slightly off-topic, the key take-away from this whole thing is the reminder of what can happen to the decision-making of good men when they identify with an institution to a greater degree than they identify with their fellow man. I keep hearing people say that the problem here is that JoePa thought he was 'bigger than Penn St.', and I can't help but feel that the opposite is true: That the REAL problem is that he didn't think he was bigger than Penn St., and so, by extension, didn't think anyone else was more important than the University either.
Every man, woman and child on this Earth is more important, and has more intrinsic value, than the institutions that feed, clothe and educate them. The sooner we recognize this the sooner we can hope to move past tragedies such as this one.
<<< Every man, woman and child on this Earth is more important, and has more intrinsic value, than the institutions that feed, clothe and educate them. The sooner we recognize this the sooner we can hope to move past tragedies such as this one. >>>
Boopotts, we disagree on a lot, but we are exactly on the same page here...
...and I know you may not like this...but you almost sounded like a conservative there.
...I just hope when you say "institutions' that you also mean big, intrusive government. otherwise we're back to disagreeing again.
I remember that when I was a teenager. It was a huge story. I have a daughter. If something happened to her like that I cannot even remotely imagine the evil that would come from me.
<< <i><<<What an absurd and obscene comparison.>>>
You're right, because I'm the first person to ever compare real life to something that happened in book or in a movie....get over yourself.
and Boo, considering I've never even been in a fistfight in my life, you are probably right....but I think it's at least on the table. I won't pretend to know what my state of mind would be like if that were my son in the shower. >>
My view not knowing you but from reading your posts, is that you would have likely avoided your son being placed in that situation to begin with...which is what some of my previous points inferred...teaching our parents and kids, and prevention is by far the best medicine.
That being said, I'll speak for all of us this one time if I may, because sometimes no matter how hard we try and prepare, unexpected events can happen...we see our son in that shower, and one way or the other that predator is not going to be feeling so well a few minutes later.
Wow- and give him even additional credit for making such a tough shot. Don't know what I would have done there, but I'm sure I wouldn't have had the stones to go for a head shot with the escort standing right next to him.
<< <i><<<What an absurd and obscene comparison.>>>
You're right, because I'm the first person to ever compare real life to something that happened in book or in a movie....get over yourself.
and Boo, considering I've never even been in a fistfight in my life, you are probably right....but I think it's at least on the table. I won't pretend to know what my state of mind would be like if that were my son in the shower. >>
Your post certainly read as if you were blurry on the lines between reality and fiction. The part of what I said that you're not responding to is that you compared a goddam football coach faced with the decision of exposing child rape within his program to the life-and-death decisions of a U.S. military commander defending this country. Sorry, man, but we don't need Joe Paterno "on that wall".
Just to be clear, here's a link to a video of the fictional character you're referring to and that you are absurdly and obscenely equating with Paterno's actions or lack thereof in reporting child rape. LINK
Edited to add that next year's recruiting class just ain't that important.
At Penn State candlelight vigil, a search for solace
By Ernest Scheyder
STATE COLLEGE, Pa | Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:46am EST
STATE COLLEGE, Pa (Reuters) - Ever since charges of child sex abuse against Jerry Sandusky tore a giant hole in Penn State's heart, students, alumni and staff have grappled with how they could heal.
It is not easy, after the horrific crimes Sandusky is alleged to have committed came to light a week ago.
Nearly 10,000 came to the university's Old Main hall on Friday night, braving the frigid mountain air to try and begin that healing process. Trying to smother the hate that has engulfed this sleepy Pennsylvania town.
Dustin Yenser, a 2007 Penn State graduate who now teaches middle school, spoke with raw emotion to the crowd of the pain he sees his university going through.
"We are Penn State, and we are hurt, and we are sorry," Yenser said, his voice cracking and tears dripping onto his face. "The only thing that matters now is that we are here for the victims."
Yenser and other speakers said the school must move forward, but never forget.
Prominent Penn State names such as former President Graham Spanier, Assistant Coach Mike McQueary, Athletic Director Tim Curley, finance official Gary Schultz and even legendary football coach Joe Paterno were not spoken. Some of these men had once been treated as near-deities, but all have been brought down by the scandal in the last week.
Determination, perseverance and charity were instead the champions of the night.
Students, some in shorts and sandals and others donning wool hats and parkas, stood solemnly in front of the old building clasping candles, sometimes repeating with thunderclap the school's iconic chant: "We Are Penn State."
They listened as one speaker told of her own experience being sexually abused as a child.
Another said Penn State must continue its history of supporting charities, including one that funds children's cancer research.
Another painfully noted that Sandusky had deprived his victims of their innocence.
As an a cappella group sang John Lennon's "Imagine," a sea of bright candlelight engulfed the crowd and many hummed along.
Lavar Arrington, who played football at Penn State and in the National Football League, spoke of how the Sandusky allegations are a challenge the university must rise above.
"The worst crime for all of us would be to leave here and forget what happened," Arrington said. "This is our call to duty."
The vigil, he told those assembled, is the start of a new story for Penn State.
"It's on us to renew the pride of Penn State," he said. "I'm not going to take that fight lying down."
TJ Bard, the president of the undergraduate student body, said the vigil represented hope, not only for the victims, but for the battered school.
"We cannot let the actions of a few define us," he said. "May we fight until no child is harmed again."
As Bard finished his speech, the Old Main clock tower began to chime for the 10 p.m. hour.
The crowd stood in silence.
Quietly, with respect, the university's marching bad played, "Alma Mater," the school song.
The 110-year-old lyrics eerily warn someone like Sandusky should never be tolerated, a fact that did not go unnoticed as the crowd audibly grew louder for the line: "May no act of ours bring shame."
It was, Alex Kolker said, a vigil to show the world Penn State supports the victims and is much more than just football.
"This is definitely a start in the healing process," said Kolker, a junior.
The vigil ended with an a capella performance of Coldplay's "Fix You," a somber song that speaks of hope despite loss, aptly describing the mood on this campus.
"Tears stream down your face," the a capella group sang, with the crowd joining along in unison. "I promise you I'll learn from my mistakes."
(Reporting and Writing by Ernest Scheyder; Editing by Greg McCune)
<<Prominent Penn State names such as former President Graham Spanier, Assistant Coach Mike McQueary, Athletic Director Tim Curley, finance official Gary Schultz and even legendary football coach Joe Paterno were not spoken. Some of these men had once been treated as near-deities, but all have been brought down by the scandal in the last week>>
That's a start. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It's really going to be a trip for all those drunken Penn State idiots when they graduate (or drop out) in a few years, are stocking shelves at Wal-Mart, and get to be greeted by their hero when they enter and exit the building. That's after the attorneys on all sides are done with him of course. Then again, if his superiors rat him out as an accomplice in a cover up, he won't even be that fortunate. Personally, I seriously doubt they would have swept this under the rug without getting Paterno on board. If he had later gone to the police, they would have had to answer for their own inaction and could have faced charges themselves. Men in power usually don't take risks like that; they try to make sure everyone's on the same page. I couldn't care less about college football or Paterno but it's blatantly obvious that he knew more than he's letting on. He gets and deserves no sympathy--all he had to do was call the law and report the rape of a child. I remember getting campus notices when students reported a rape on campus . The idea that these idiots--including Paterno, the GA, and the dopes "above" him--thought it was ok to not even report a 10 year old getting raped to the law is repugnant. To hell with all of them.
<< <i>At Penn State candlelight vigil, a search for solace
As an a cappella group sang John Lennon's "Imagine," a sea of bright candlelight engulfed the crowd and many hummed along.
The vigil ended with an a capella performance of Coldplay's "Fix You," a somber song that speaks of hope despite loss, aptly describing the mood on this campus. >>
So what was the program at the conservative candlelight vigil?
<< <i> Exactly..most parents including myself would. I missed it somewhere, but why didn't the mother in the 98 case continue to do that? and why in hell would the da's office and police not keep an eye on this POS? >>
If these boys had low-functioning, single, black mothers (and it's starting to look that way) then you have to understand that you're talking about women who a) have never had much faith in law enforcement as a force for good in the world, and b) who don't have any idea what do next if they call the cops and nothing happens. I know this as a fact, as my wife used to work as a case manager in a welfare-to-work agency and knew a lot of women who fit this profile first-hand. Many of these moms just have no idea how to navigate their way effectively through entrenched power structures, and have no faith in their own ability to elicit swift and decisive action from the judicial system. They 'might' call the cops, though they're highly skeptical of the notion that a battalion of white guys are going to move heaven and Earth and champion the cause of their child. If things don't fall into place quickly after they make the phone call they assume (perhaps rightfully) that the world really doesn't care about their kids, or what happens to them, so they give it up.
<< <i>I love my children, and would never leave them with anyone else. I trust no one. >>
You home school, then? Your children never go to camp? You never use a baby-sitter? >>
We did homeschool our oldest from ages 8-10 because we didn't feel he could fend for himself. He now goes to a catholic school with all old, female teachers who are wonderful.
Our children have never gone to camp, and they have never had a babysitter outside of my parents.
<< <i> EF- I respectfully call BS on Paterno's version of the 2002 account. MJ >>
That's fine, and you are not alone in that camp, but only God knows the truth of that, and most have probably figured out that I'm from the angle of "innocent until proven guilty" camp because of my past experiences.
I agree. It's time for some football. This thread has been rather exhaustive. I pity the grand jury, lawyers, and witnesses who have much more to come. Ain't gonna be easy.
Let me start with this: I am writing a book about Joe Paterno. I am getting paid a sizable amount of money to do so, some of which I plan to donate to the charity of Joe’s choice, some of which I plan to keep. I have been working on this book, on and off, speed bumps and traffic jams, for a couple of years now. I moved away from my family, to State College, for the football season. I had many hard feelings about that. But I believed — as my wife believed — that it was the right thing to do. I came here to write about one of the giants of sports. And my wife and I both felt that the only way to tell the story, for better and worse, was to be around it every day.
The last week has torn me up emotionally. This doesn’t matter, of course. All that matters are the victims of the horrible crimes allegedly committed by former assistant coach Jerry Sandusky. I cannot say that enough times. Sometimes, I feel like the last week or so there has been a desperate race among commentators and others to prove that they are MORE against child molesting than anyone else. That makes me sick. We’re all sickened. We’re all heartbroken. We’re all beyond angry, in a place of rage where nothing seems real. The other day, I called it “howling.” I meant that in the purest sense of the word — crying in pain.
So, two points to get out of the way:
1. I think Joe Paterno had the responsibility as a leader and a man to stop the horrific rapes allegedly committed by Jerry Sandusky, and I believe he will have regrets about this for the rest of his life.
2. Because of this, Joe Paterno could no longer coach at Penn State University.
Beyond these two points, though, I said I wasn’t going to write about this because I feel like there’s still a lot of darkness around. I don’t know what Joe Paterno knew. I don’t know how he handled it. I don’t know if he followed up. I don’t know anything about Paterno’s role in this except for what little was said about that in the horrifying and stomach-turning grand jury findings. People have jumped to many conclusions about Paterno’s role and his negligence, and they might be right. I’ll say it again: They might be right. But they might be wrong, too. And I’m writing a book about the man. I can’t live in that world of maybes.
It hasn’t been easy to stay silent — nor is it my personality. As anyone who knows me will tell you, I will write 5,000 words about an infomercial I don’t like. But I thought it was important that I stay out of the middle of this, observe the scene, and I still think that’s important.
But — well, I’ve already said that my emotions don’t matter here, that they are nothing like what the victims went through, but for the purposes of this essay I’ll tell you them anyway: I’ve been wrecked the last week. Writing a book comes from the soul. It consumes you — mentally, emotionally, spiritually, all of it. I have thought about Joe Paterno, his strengths, his flaws, his triumphs, his failures, his core, pretty much nonstop for months now. I have talked to hundreds of people about him in all walks of life. I have read 25 or 30 books about him, countless articles. I’m not saying I know Joe Paterno. I’m saying I know a whole lot about him.
And what I know is complicated. But, beyond complications — and I really believe this with all my heart — there’s this, and this is exclusively my opinion: Joe Paterno has lived a profoundly decent life.
Nobody has really wanted to say this lately, and I grasp that. The last week has obviously shed a new light on him and his program — a horrible new light — and if you have any questions about how I feel about all that, please scroll back up to my two points at the top.
But I have seen some things in the last few days that have felt rotten, utterly wrong — a piling on that goes even beyond excessive, a dancing on the grave that makes me ill. Joe Paterno has lived a whole life. He has improved the lives of countless people. I know — I’ve talked to hundreds of them. Almost every day I walk by the library that he and his wife, Sue, built. I walk by the religious center that tries to bring people together, and his name is on the list of major donors. I hear the stories, the countless stories, of the kindnesses that came naturally to him, of the way he stuck with people in their worst moments, of the belief he had that everybody could do a little bit better — as a football player, as a student, as a human being. I’m not going to tell you these stories now, because you can’t hear them. Nobody can hear them in the howling.
But I will say that I am sickened, absolutely sickened, that some of those people whose lives were fundamentally inspired and galvanized by Joe Paterno have not stepped forward to stand up for him this week, have stood back and allowed him to be painted as an inhuman monster who was only interested in his legacy, even at the cost of the most heinous crimes against children imaginable.
Shame on them.
And why? I’ll tell you my opinion: Because they were afraid. And I understand that. A kind word for Joe Paterno in this storm is taken by many as a pro vote for a child molester. A quick, “Wait a minute, Joe Paterno is a good man. Let’s see what happened here” is translated as an attempt to minimize the horror of what Jerry Sandusky is charged with doing. It takes courage to stand behind someone you believe in when it’s this bad outside. It takes courage to stand up for a man in peril, even if he stood up for you.
And that’s shameful. I have not wanted to speak because it’s not my place to speak. I’m Joe Paterno’s biographer. I’m here to write about the man. I’m not here to write a fairy tale, and I’m not here to write a hit job, and I hope to be nowhere near either extreme. I’m here to write a whole story. I’ve had people ask me: “Will you include all this in the book?” Well, OF COURSE I will — this is the tragic ending of a legendary career. I’m going to wait for evidence, and if it turns out that Joe Paterno knowingly covered this up, then I will write that with all the power and fury I have in me.
I will wait, though. I will have to wait.
But then, yeah, I opened my big mouth. On Thursday morning, I went to speak at the “Paterno and the Media” class on the Penn State campus — I have spoken at the class the last two or three years. This was obviously one day after Paterno had been fired, and the campus had been turned inside out. I woke up wondering if I really should go. But I decided I had to go.
And when I was asked questions, I had to say how I felt. It spilled out of me. I suppose it caused a bit of a Twitter uproar — I say “I suppose,” because for the first time in memory I am not checking Twitter, and I think I’ll stay away for a while — but what I remember saying is:
1. Joe Paterno is responsible for what happens on his watch. Period.
2. People are making assumptions about what Joe did or didn’t know, what Joe did or didn’t do, and I can’t tell you that those assumptions are wrong. But I can tell you that they are assumptions based on one side of the story.
3. We are in a top-you world where everyone is not only trying to report something faster but is also trying to report something ANGRIER. One guy wants Joe Paterno to resign, the next wants him to be fired, the next wants him to be fired this minute, the next wants him to be fired and arrested, the next wants him to be fired, arrested and jailed, on and on, until we’ve lost sight of who actually committed the crimes here.
4. I think the University could not possibly have handled this worse. It was disgusting and disgraceful, the method in which they fired Joe Paterno after 60 years of service, and yes, I do think Paterno was a scapegoat. Of course he was. I’ve already said that he had to be let go. But to let him dangle out there, take up all the headlines, face the bulk of the media pressure, absolutely, that’s the very definition of scapegoat. Three people were indicted and arrested. A fourth, I hear, will be indicted soon. Joe Paterno is not one of the four.
5. It is still unclear what Paterno did in this case. It will remain unclear for a while. You might be one of the hundreds and hundreds of people I’ve heard from who know EXACTLY what Paterno did. He HAD to know this. He DEFINITELY knew that. He COULD have done something. I respect that. Joe Paterno’s a public figure. You have every right to believe what you want to believe and be absolutely certain about it. But since we have not heard from Joe, not heard from former athletic director Tim Curley, not heard from GA/assistant coach Mike McQueary, not heard from anyone who was in the room, I’ll repeat: It’s unclear. A determined grand jury did not charge Joe Paterno with any crime. A motivated reporting barrage, so far, anyway, has not uncovered a single thing that can tell us definitively what Joe Paterno knew.
You can say that he knew enough to stop this, and I’d say you were right. I have tried so hard to make it clear that I am not defending Joe Paterno’s actions or inactions, but I know that won’t be enough. You may be writing an email right now telling me how terrible child molestation is, how awful a person Joe Paterno is, how awful a person I am for wanting to wait and see. I understand. This case hits emotions that are unstoppable.
But I will say this: Paterno has paid a price here. His job is gone. His life’s work has been soiled. His reputation is in tatters. Maybe that should be the price. Maybe there should be more of a price. You don’t have to type: “Well, his price is nothing like the price of those victims…” I already know that.
But I think the way Joe Paterno has lived his life has earned him something more than instant fury, more than immediate assumptions of the worst, more than the happy cheers of critics who have always believed that there was something phony about the man and his ideals. He deserves what I would hope we all deserve — for the truth to come out, or, anyway, the closest thing to truth we can find.
I don’t think Joe Paterno has gotten that. And I think that’s sad.
And with that, I’m going back underground to wrestle with my book and doubts and emotions and everything that goes with that.
A good honest perspective. Don't think I can disagree.
Nice to hear someone talk about personal responsibility rather than rely on plausible deniability.
Sure he is not truly convinced of the depth of knowledge Paterno has of the events, however he understands that it was Paterno's responsibility to know more.
Not all negligence is willful negligence, however we are still culpable.
For that he was rightfully relieved of his duties.
FWIW...I think Penn State has started making good choices by getting rid of Spanier, Paterno and McQueary.
It's a start and I don't really think there is a need to discuss them any further (until new legal news warrants discussion). They're gone. That's most important.
Now Penn State needs to do more by dismantling the football program and anyone employed there since 1994 (put them all on paid leave until everything is sorted out, then bring them back if they were truly unaware of Sandusky).
Anything short of this is, in my opinion, not enough.
So no more Paterno, Spanier or McQueary talk from me unless new developments come to light.
"Word is, Jerry Sandusky went shopping on Wednesday. At Dick’s Sporting Goods. Two workers at the store told me Friday that it was true – but said they weren’t in the store at the time and didn’t see him personally. Four other workers stiffly declined comment. Nobody refuted the story."
"Word is, Jerry Sandusky went shopping on Wednesday. At Dick’s Sporting Goods. Two workers at the store told me Friday that it was true – but said they weren’t in the store at the time and didn’t see him personally. Four other workers stiffly declined comment. Nobody refuted the story."
If this is true no one should be suprised. It is apparent that arrogance is a common trait among many at PSU.
I wonder who will make a deal with the DA first for testimony? Spanier, Curley or Schultz? MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>A good honest perspective. Don't think I can disagree.
Nice to hear someone talk about personal responsibility rather than rely on plausible deniability.
Sure he is not truly convinced of the depth of knowledge Paterno has of the events, however he understands that it was Paterno's responsibility to know more.
Not all negligence is willful negligence, however we are still culpable.
For that he was rightfully relieved of his duties. >>
Paterno himself has stated (might not be exact) "I should have done more" - I would have liked to have heard him expand on that comment. Sadly though I have to imagine that his high priced lawyer likely told him not to speak too much, if at all.
Paterno I think probably meant the comment on the surface to imply that he should have called the police, but perhaps the comment could have much deeper meaning than that.
I have to believe that Paterno is in a state of shock right now. Knowing Paterno's character, I do think the truth will eventually come out. Anyone can bash Paterno all they want, but he's not a liar. So I for one am very interested to hear his side of the story. It might not be good, and I may not like it, and at this point to be honest I have a bad feeling that I'm really not going to like it because I love Joe Paterno...but the truth needs to come out, especially in this case involving children.
I haven't read thru this entire thread but have to ask where will it stop.....scandals have taken place everywhere...Michigan, Ohio State, now Penn State...probably could find something at just about every university if you looked close enough. I've always been against giving the kids money while in college but maybe it is time to help them out while in college....and I don't mean the $2K that was recently put out there......
<< <i>"Word is, Jerry Sandusky went shopping on Wednesday. At Dick’s Sporting Goods. Two workers at the store told me Friday that it was true – but said they weren’t in the store at the time and didn’t see him personally. Four other workers stiffly declined comment. Nobody refuted the story."
This is a bit hard to believe that this guy should be out on bail...a cold calculating accused serial child molester, and now he's seen in a sporting goods store possibly loaded with kids. Who knows where else he has been in places where there are kids?
Ya know, "innocent until proven guilty" is fine and I believe in that...and I believe in reasonable bail, but this guy is a menace to society and extremely dangerous. Who knows what else is going thru his sick demented mind at this point. He probably knows he's going to prison for a long time, perhaps life...so he might be figuring he'll have one last fling, and maybe this time when he grabs some boy and does his filthy act, he may figure it's best this time not to have a witness. Why doesn't the criminal justice system think this thru for crying out loud?
This POS (allegedly) molests children over a period of years, he ruins my school, and now he's out enjoying himself, having a good time possibly looking for "prospects" - I am F*ing ticked off right now as much as I've ever been!!!
<< <i>McQueary placed on indefinite leave....it's about fuggin time!
Also heard that cinder blocks were thrown through Jerry Sandusky's home windows! I love it! I hope it only gets worse for him...sitting, trapped in that house! >>
If he is in the house with his wife and/or other family members then I do NOT love it. I am sure his family has been hurt enough by his sick sick actions. HOWEVER, if someone wanted to throw a cinder block AT HIM then I am all for it. >>
Now that it is clear Sandusky is not going to off himself anytime soon, the judge should have him locked up for his family's protection. And be sure to leave some nice long sheets and a chair in his cell.
<< <i> Exactly..most parents including myself would. I missed it somewhere, but why didn't the mother in the 98 case continue to do that? and why in hell would the da's office and police not keep an eye on this POS? >>
If these boys had low-functioning, single, black mothers (and it's starting to look that way) then you have to understand that you're talking about women who a) have never had much faith in law enforcement as a force for good in the world, and b) who don't have any idea what do next if they call the cops and nothing happens. I know this as a fact, as my wife used to work as a case manager in a welfare-to-work agency and knew a lot of women who fit this profile first-hand. Many of these moms just have no idea how to navigate their way effectively through entrenched power structures, and have no faith in their own ability to elicit swift and decisive action from the judicial system. They 'might' call the cops, though they're highly skeptical of the notion that a battalion of white guys are going to move heaven and Earth and champion the cause of their child. If things don't fall into place quickly after they make the phone call they assume (perhaps rightfully) that the world really doesn't care about their kids, or what happens to them, so they give it up.
. >>
This is a great post. >>
Yes it is a great post, and it is why it is foolish for anyone to defend or accuse anyone (other than Sandusky) in this entire mess without knowing all the facts.
One could argue that McQueary was in a similar quandry as the low income mom in Boo's post. Sandusky was reported to the police once before, and nothing came of it. McQueary went to Paterno, and nothing more came of it. Yet somehow a young grad assistant was going to, using Boo's words, navigate his way through the power structures and make headway to putting a stop to something that the police, prosecuting attorneys, and Joe Pa had failed to do already. For all we know, McQueary's solution to the problem was to try everything in his power in his position to steer children away from Sandusky. For all we know, someone showed up at McQueary's house late one night with a picture of McQueary's mother or sister or child and explained what would happen to them if McQueary said another word. Heck, it's possible that McQueary was one of Sandusky's victims many years before. It's also possible that McQueary himself abused young boys. Without knowing any of this, it's impossible, at least for me, to make rational arguments and be all mighty about "what I would have done" or what should be done to each of the people involved.
McQueary wasn't merely a young grad assistant, he was a 27 year old hulking ex-football player. He could have easily physically restrained an old man who was sexually abusing a boy.
Comments
600
Do I hear seven ?
I'm sure we'll reach a thousand in no time.
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If it was a child of yours that was effected by this guy you would be calling for his head on a platter gimme a freakin break >>
No child of mine would ever hang out with a strange man. He would be next to his dad and mom, where he belongs.
So take your freakin break somewhere else. I love my children, and would never leave them with anyone else. I trust no one. >>
Im glad to hear that ,I honestly am but again IF your child was involved you would be singing a different tune whether you want to avoid agreeing with it or not.
Put yourself in the parents shoes and listen to some blow hard like yourself saying its sad that people are crusifying the guy because you would turn nasty really quick so save us the bullchit
EF- I respectfully call BS on Paterno's version of the 2002 account. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I love my children, and would never leave them with anyone else. I trust no one. >>
You home school, then? Your children never go to camp? You never use a baby-sitter?
If that were my child, I wouldn't be calling for his head....I'd already be in jail for having killed the man.
<< <i>There are a few parallels between Colonel Jessup and Paterno. Both spent a life defending something, and were well decorated in doing so. Both were very well respected. And both made a single decision that ended with tragic consequences for others that were not strong enough to protect themselves. >>
Parallel? One aspect in which Colonel Jessup and Paterno are perpendicular is that one is fictional and the other is not. Another difference is that one is (fictionally) defending a nation, not an effing football program. What an absurd and obscene comparison.
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<< <i>There are a few parallels between Colonel Jessup and Paterno. Both spent a life defending something, and were well decorated in doing so. Both were very well respected. And both made a single decision that ended with tragic consequences for others that were not strong enough to protect themselves. >>
Parallel? One aspect in which Colonel Jessup and Paterno are perpendicular is that one is fictional and the other is not. Another difference is that one is (fictionally) defending a nation, not an effing football program. What an absurd and obscene comparison. >>
Exactly.
And let me touch base on a post in here that suggests people are being hypocritical for "Shredding Paterno", I call BS on that all the way, most of us have at one time or another - stolen, lied, cheated, done a drug, drank and drived, punched someone ect, and dont judge others who have done the same and Im also pretty dam sure most of us that are "Shredding" Paterno would not allow child abuse to take place and lamely report it and forget it. So the hypocrisy refferance is completely out the window here as well.
<< <i><<<If it was a child of yours that was effected by this guy you would be calling for his head on a platter gimme a freakin break>>>
If that were my child, I wouldn't be calling for his head....I'd already be in jail for having killed the man. >>
Exactly..most parents including myself would. I missed it somewhere, but why didn't the mother in the 98 case continue to do that? and why in hell would the da's office and police not keep an eye on this POS?
<< <i><<<If it was a child of yours that was effected by this guy you would be calling for his head on a platter gimme a freakin break>>>
If that were my child, I wouldn't be calling for his head....I'd already be in jail for having killed the man. >>
I would bet $1000 that you would not kill the guy. In fact, I'd go so far as to bet that you would be more likely to kill a guy who abused someone else's child than you would be to kill someone who abused your own. And that's not meant as an insult, since I think I fall into that camp as well.
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<< <i><<<If it was a child of yours that was effected by this guy you would be calling for his head on a platter gimme a freakin break>>>
If that were my child, I wouldn't be calling for his head....I'd already be in jail for having killed the man. >>
Exactly..most parents including myself would. I missed it somewhere, but why didn't the mother in the 98 case continue to do that? and why in hell would the da's office and police not keep an eye on this POS? >>
If these boys had low-functioning, single, black mothers (and it's starting to look that way) then you have to understand that you're talking about women who a) have never had much faith in law enforcement as a force for good in the world, and b) who don't have any idea what do next if they call the cops and nothing happens. I know this as a fact, as my wife used to work as a case manager in a welfare-to-work agency and knew a lot of women who fit this profile first-hand. Many of these moms just have no idea how to navigate their way effectively through entrenched power structures, and have no faith in their own ability to elicit swift and decisive action from the judicial system. They 'might' call the cops, though they're highly skeptical of the notion that a battalion of white guys are going to move heaven and Earth and champion the cause of their child. If things don't fall into place quickly after they make the phone call they assume (perhaps rightfully) that the world really doesn't care about their kids, or what happens to them, so they give it up.
I'll bet you that this Sandusky had this in mind when he chose his victims. You grope the kid of a soccer mom who makes $100K+ annually as an exec. at Chrysler and you're going to bring a whole new world of pain upon yourself if the kid tells his folks. You grope a kid who's mom is single, poorly educated, and 24 years old, and your chances are good that nothing will come of it. I'm guessing Sandusky is a very smart guy- you have to be if you're a defensive coordinator at the D1 level, since that's no place for dummies- and that he had this situation pegged as early as 1977.
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<< <i><<<If it was a child of yours that was effected by this guy you would be calling for his head on a platter gimme a freakin break>>>
If that were my child, I wouldn't be calling for his head....I'd already be in jail for having killed the man. >>
I would bet $1000 that you would not kill the guy. In fact, I'd go so far as to bet that you would be more likely to kill a guy who abused someone else's child than you would be to kill someone who abused your own. And that's not meant as an insult, since I think I fall into that camp as well. >>
I ask myself time and time again how these Child Molesters end up in Jail, I think its true that most people say they would kill the guy but wouldnt do it. In my Jail there are hundreds of scumbags that have done heinous acts and show up to Jail without a sctratch on them.
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<< <i><<<If it was a child of yours that was effected by this guy you would be calling for his head on a platter gimme a freakin break>>>
If that were my child, I wouldn't be calling for his head....I'd already be in jail for having killed the man. >>
I would bet $1000 that you would not kill the guy. In fact, I'd go so far as to bet that you would be more likely to kill a guy who abused someone else's child than you would be to kill someone who abused your own. And that's not meant as an insult, since I think I fall into that camp as well. >>
I ask myself time and time again how these Child Molesters end up in Jail, I think its true that most people say they would kill the guy but wouldnt do it. In my Jail there are hundreds of scumbags that have done heinous acts and show up to Jail without a sctratch on them. >>
If you're a parent and you grease the guy then your kid gets hit with a double whammy: Not only are they forced to bear the burden of guilt and shame that so often comes from being victimized in this manner, but they have to do it a) without their Dad there to support them, and b) with the gut feeling that they're responsible for the fact that their Dad is doing hard time in the state pen. Most parents probably recognize this at some point, which is why they let the justice system do its job.
<< <i>Well said, D.
The ugliness of people is really starting to annoy me with this story.
First it's the hypocritical bloggers, radio hosts, TV analysts, message board posters joyfully shredding Paterno. It's like Tiger Woods 2009 all over again, the sharks are in the water. These people have somehow convinced themselves that they are the morality police, ignoring any past sins that they may have committed, and fooling themselves into thinking they absolutely would have acted differently if in Paterno's shoes, when they can't possibly comprehend the parameters around which Paterno's actions were centered.
It's easy to sit on your couch after the fact and criticize someone else's actions (or non-actions in this case), when the past is all laid out in front of you. It's a whole different story when you are living in the moment.
Somebody quoted A Few Good Men earlier....I like this quote from Colonel Jessup during his final monologue as a better analogy...."I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom."
There are a few parallels between Colonel Jessup and Paterno. Both spent a life defending something, and were well decorated in doing so. Both were very well respected. And both made a single decision that ended with tragic consequences for others that were not strong enough to protect themselves. >>
Politics is off limits at CU but nobody said anything about Hollywood so I'll continue because Keith PM'd me and said he needed some new material for another list he wanted to compose - He specifically asked if I could use some Gilligan's Island references so I'll try to use "little buddy" or the skipper" in a few sentences. LOL
It's interesting about the movies "A Few Good Men" and also "Wall Street" ...both directed by far left directors, one is very far left...yet conservatives love these two movies. They were intended to bash their subject matter, yet they wound up glorifying it in a way. And of course these two directors are highly intelligent individuals, and despite their premise of leaning to the left in these two movies, in a town (Hollywood) which everybody knows is left wing, money trumps ideology. So perhaps these guys knew exactly what they were doing making a film that the left and conservatives would enjoy, hence appealing to as wide an audience as possible, hence making the most money for them.
Not always, but Hollywood generally likes placing a happy ending on their movies. The directors often shoot at least a few different endings, and then show the movie with the different endings to preview audiences to see which gets the best response, before distributing the final picture. Somehow if the wicked witch would have killed Dorothy, I don't think the Wizard of Oz would have been quite as popular. LOL
The premise of jdip9 is spot on in my opinion. All the "geniuses" out there who think they "know" what they would have done in that situation are only fooling themselves because they can't know for sure. Crazy situations such as that sometimes ya never really know really how you would react. This is why I've stressed training in the thread...Paterno should have been trained better, the parents should have been trained better, and we all need to be trained better to create awareness about this terrible problem out there affecting too many kids.
Yes, we want to let kids be kids and have as normal a childhood as possible...and the silly comments about blaming the kids is just that, silly, but the kids do need to be trained as well. To illustrate...there are too many tragic instances of kids fooling around with firearms and accidentally shooting themselves or their friends. Some parents don't seem to want to confront their kids about death and other facts of life. i was trained very early in life with firearms, suffice to say, taught that if I fooled around with this dam thing it could kill myself or others. To this day when cleaning my firearms, before cleaning the barrels, I triple and quadruple check to make sure the gun isn't loaded. I check it, put it down for a few minutes, and repeat the procedure a few times so i have bascially a fresh look at it each time. Being overcautious? I don't think so. Being smart? Definitely...and I've never had a shooting accident. I use the same type of premise in my driving, caution, and I've logged millions of miles driving and have never been in an accident which was my fault, and the few accidents i've been in, were minimized because I drive cautiuously, defensively, and the times it happened i saw it coming and was able to brace myself and walked away basicallly unharmed.
I say this because I previously mentioned the parents responsibilty in all this. Parents need to and should do a better job making their children aware of the dangers in life and not try to coddle them too much. Explain how that dam gun can maim or kill you, explain to their teenager how that car can maim or kill you, even if you or the know-it-all teenager thinks it's obvious, still teach them defensive driving. And yes explain to your child that there are some bad people out there in this world who want to touch you in an uncomfortable bad way, and if that ever happens then you must tell Mommy and Daddy about it. When at the doctor, tell them it's okay for the doctor to do it, but not anybody else. Actions and words to that effect because life is not a Hollywood movie, it doesn't always have a happy ending as some good members here have told their personal stories about suicide and death with their friends and family, and I believe it helps them to heal, and helps us learn more about the problem. Hopefully at least some of these potential tragedies in the future can be prevented, again with better training and awareness about child abuse, and it begins in the home. Yes, make the changes at Penn State and elsewhere, I agree with that, but again, it starts in the home and must continue in the home.
So blame Paterno all ya want, keep him tied to the whipping post, and I guess that makes many out there feel good for a variety of reasons but he, personally, is not the problem. I can't get into Joe's head but again, we never can be sure how we will react to situation unless we are well informed and trained for that situation. I always stress practice for home owners to prepare if they confront a burglar, if there is a fire, if there is a choking child, etc...we must be prepared for these events otherwise the outcome may not have a happy ending.
I also mentioned "Michael Jackson" because who knows what goes thru someone's subconscious mind. This is just a pure guess...perhaps Joe saw how society treated Michael Jackson, and everybody knows what was going on there, and perhaps Joe again subconsciously or even consciously figured that why worry about it that much when someone like Michael Jackson is doing it basically openly. Maybe Joe figured if society doesn't give a chit about what Michael Jackson was doing...I'll follow the law, give the info to the university administrator, and that's it for me. And when the predators see what was going on with Michael Jackson, how late night talk show hosts made jokes about it, in my opinion it likely gives the predators encouragement. Michael Jackson could have been stopped early and he'd probably still be alive today, in prison, but alive, and Jerry Sandusky could have been stopped much earlier as well, with greater awareness that child abuse isn't funny, and it isn't acceptable the way too many seemed to accept it with Michael Jackson - it's dam serious and needs to be with the top of the list in priority.
Let me tell you...in my viewpoint, Michael Jackson should have been serving a long prison sentence...it's obvious to me that he bought his way out of justice being served, and that is despicable. Someone mentioned here that money would not help a child's recovery, but it sure as yell helped the mother who accepted the large settlement from Jackson, now didn't it? And after all that was known, how could parents send their children to play with Michael Jackson. Nobody wants to say this but sometimes the parents are the scumbags with their own children.
Well, I could type a lot more, and I'm not ending this post perfectly, but I'll end the post here.
You're right, because I'm the first person to ever compare real life to something that happened in book or in a movie....get over yourself.
and Boo, considering I've never even been in a fistfight in my life, you are probably right....but I think it's at least on the table. I won't pretend to know what my state of mind would be like if that were my son in the shower.
<< <i><<<What an absurd and obscene comparison.>>>
You're right, because I'm the first person to ever compare real life to something that happened in book or in a movie....get over yourself.
and Boo, considering I've never even been in a fistfight in my life, you are probably right....but I think it's at least on the table. I won't pretend to know what my state of mind would be like if that were my son in the shower. >>
Too true- let's hope neither of us are ever faced with that decision. The truly terrifying part of it is that the final decision could rest on something seemingly trivial; like whether or not we were having a bad day before we found out, or whether we were friends with the perpetrator. It's just impossible to know.
Moving slightly off-topic, the key take-away from this whole thing is the reminder of what can happen to the decision-making of good men when they identify with an institution to a greater degree than they identify with their fellow man. I keep hearing people say that the problem here is that JoePa thought he was 'bigger than Penn St.', and I can't help but feel that the opposite is true: That the REAL problem is that he didn't think he was bigger than Penn St., and so, by extension, didn't think anyone else was more important than the University either.
Every man, woman and child on this Earth is more important, and has more intrinsic value, than the institutions that feed, clothe and educate them. The sooner we recognize this the sooner we can hope to move past tragedies such as this one.
A dad that didn't appreciate what happened to his son
Boopotts, we disagree on a lot, but we are exactly on the same page here...
...and I know you may not like this...but you almost sounded like a conservative there.
...I just hope when you say "institutions' that you also mean big, intrusive government. otherwise we're back to disagreeing again.
<< <i><<<What an absurd and obscene comparison.>>>
You're right, because I'm the first person to ever compare real life to something that happened in book or in a movie....get over yourself.
and Boo, considering I've never even been in a fistfight in my life, you are probably right....but I think it's at least on the table. I won't pretend to know what my state of mind would be like if that were my son in the shower. >>
My view not knowing you but from reading your posts, is that you would have likely avoided your son being placed in that situation to begin with...which is what some of my previous points inferred...teaching our parents and kids, and prevention is by far the best medicine.
That being said, I'll speak for all of us this one time if I may, because sometimes no matter how hard we try and prepare, unexpected events can happen...we see our son in that shower, and one way or the other that predator is not going to be feeling so well a few minutes later.
<< <i>I think I would have followed the lead of this gentleman, who saved the Louisiana tax payers many years of supporting a piece of crap.
A dad that didn't appreciate what happened to his son >>
Wow- and give him even additional credit for making such a tough shot. Don't know what I would have done there, but I'm sure I wouldn't have had the stones to go for a head shot with the escort standing right next to him.
<< <i><<<What an absurd and obscene comparison.>>>
You're right, because I'm the first person to ever compare real life to something that happened in book or in a movie....get over yourself.
and Boo, considering I've never even been in a fistfight in my life, you are probably right....but I think it's at least on the table. I won't pretend to know what my state of mind would be like if that were my son in the shower. >>
Your post certainly read as if you were blurry on the lines between reality and fiction. The part of what I said that you're not responding to is that you compared a goddam football coach faced with the decision of exposing child rape within his program to the life-and-death decisions of a U.S. military commander defending this country. Sorry, man, but we don't need Joe Paterno "on that wall".
Just to be clear, here's a link to a video of the fictional character you're referring to and that you are absurdly and obscenely equating with Paterno's actions or lack thereof in reporting child rape. LINK
Edited to add that next year's recruiting class just ain't that important.
By Ernest Scheyder
STATE COLLEGE, Pa | Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:46am EST
STATE COLLEGE, Pa (Reuters) - Ever since charges of child sex abuse against Jerry Sandusky tore a giant hole in Penn State's heart, students, alumni and staff have grappled with how they could heal.
It is not easy, after the horrific crimes Sandusky is alleged to have committed came to light a week ago.
Nearly 10,000 came to the university's Old Main hall on Friday night, braving the frigid mountain air to try and begin that healing process. Trying to smother the hate that has engulfed this sleepy Pennsylvania town.
Dustin Yenser, a 2007 Penn State graduate who now teaches middle school, spoke with raw emotion to the crowd of the pain he sees his university going through.
"We are Penn State, and we are hurt, and we are sorry," Yenser said, his voice cracking and tears dripping onto his face. "The only thing that matters now is that we are here for the victims."
Yenser and other speakers said the school must move forward, but never forget.
Prominent Penn State names such as former President Graham Spanier, Assistant Coach Mike McQueary, Athletic Director Tim Curley, finance official Gary Schultz and even legendary football coach Joe Paterno were not spoken. Some of these men had once been treated as near-deities, but all have been brought down by the scandal in the last week.
Determination, perseverance and charity were instead the champions of the night.
Students, some in shorts and sandals and others donning wool hats and parkas, stood solemnly in front of the old building clasping candles, sometimes repeating with thunderclap the school's iconic chant: "We Are Penn State."
They listened as one speaker told of her own experience being sexually abused as a child.
Another said Penn State must continue its history of supporting charities, including one that funds children's cancer research.
Another painfully noted that Sandusky had deprived his victims of their innocence.
As an a cappella group sang John Lennon's "Imagine," a sea of bright candlelight engulfed the crowd and many hummed along.
Lavar Arrington, who played football at Penn State and in the National Football League, spoke of how the Sandusky allegations are a challenge the university must rise above.
"The worst crime for all of us would be to leave here and forget what happened," Arrington said. "This is our call to duty."
The vigil, he told those assembled, is the start of a new story for Penn State.
"It's on us to renew the pride of Penn State," he said. "I'm not going to take that fight lying down."
TJ Bard, the president of the undergraduate student body, said the vigil represented hope, not only for the victims, but for the battered school.
"We cannot let the actions of a few define us," he said. "May we fight until no child is harmed again."
As Bard finished his speech, the Old Main clock tower began to chime for the 10 p.m. hour.
The crowd stood in silence.
Quietly, with respect, the university's marching bad played, "Alma Mater," the school song.
The 110-year-old lyrics eerily warn someone like Sandusky should never be tolerated, a fact that did not go unnoticed as the crowd audibly grew louder for the line: "May no act of ours bring shame."
It was, Alex Kolker said, a vigil to show the world Penn State supports the victims and is much more than just football.
"This is definitely a start in the healing process," said Kolker, a junior.
The vigil ended with an a capella performance of Coldplay's "Fix You," a somber song that speaks of hope despite loss, aptly describing the mood on this campus.
"Tears stream down your face," the a capella group sang, with the crowd joining along in unison. "I promise you I'll learn from my mistakes."
(Reporting and Writing by Ernest Scheyder; Editing by Greg McCune)
That's a start. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This is just the beginning. Wait until this goes to trial. It's going to be sickening to listen to this B.S. week after nauseating week.
<< <i>At Penn State candlelight vigil, a search for solace
As an a cappella group sang John Lennon's "Imagine," a sea of bright candlelight engulfed the crowd and many hummed along.
The vigil ended with an a capella performance of Coldplay's "Fix You," a somber song that speaks of hope despite loss, aptly describing the mood on this campus. >>
So what was the program at the conservative candlelight vigil?
/sarcasm
If they HAVE to play football today...I'm hoping for a huge Nebraska win.
EDIT: And please do not jump on me because you ASSUME you know why I am rooting for Nebraska. You don't know.
<< <i>
Exactly..most parents including myself would. I missed it somewhere, but why didn't the mother in the 98 case continue to do that? and why in hell would the da's office and police not keep an eye on this POS? >>
If these boys had low-functioning, single, black mothers (and it's starting to look that way) then you have to understand that you're talking about women who a) have never had much faith in law enforcement as a force for good in the world, and b) who don't have any idea what do next if they call the cops and nothing happens. I know this as a fact, as my wife used to work as a case manager in a welfare-to-work agency and knew a lot of women who fit this profile first-hand. Many of these moms just have no idea how to navigate their way effectively through entrenched power structures, and have no faith in their own ability to elicit swift and decisive action from the judicial system. They 'might' call the cops, though they're highly skeptical of the notion that a battalion of white guys are going to move heaven and Earth and champion the cause of their child. If things don't fall into place quickly after they make the phone call they assume (perhaps rightfully) that the world really doesn't care about their kids, or what happens to them, so they give it up.
. >>
This is a great post.
<< <i>
<< <i>I love my children, and would never leave them with anyone else. I trust no one. >>
You home school, then? Your children never go to camp? You never use a baby-sitter? >>
We did homeschool our oldest from ages 8-10 because we didn't feel he could fend for himself. He now goes
to a catholic school with all old, female teachers who are wonderful.
Our children have never gone to camp, and they have never had a babysitter outside of my parents.
So yes, I take every protective measure I can.
<< <i>
EF- I respectfully call BS on Paterno's version of the 2002 account. MJ >>
That's fine, and you are not alone in that camp, but only God knows the truth of that, and most have probably figured
out that I'm from the angle of "innocent until proven guilty" camp because of my past experiences.
I agree. It's time for some football. This thread has been rather exhaustive. I pity the grand jury, lawyers, and witnesses
who have much more to come. Ain't gonna be easy.
I've grown tired of watching all these drunk Penn State Liberals chant and march for their corrupt leaders....
Link
<< <i>Joe Posnanski from cnnsi.com does a pretty good job expressing a lot of what I'm feeling....especially the "dancing on his grave" part....
Link >>
If it's okay, I wanted to copy and paste that article:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The End of Paterno
College Football, General | Comments
Let me start with this: I am writing a book about Joe Paterno. I am getting paid a sizable amount of money to do so, some of which I plan to donate to the charity of Joe’s choice, some of which I plan to keep. I have been working on this book, on and off, speed bumps and traffic jams, for a couple of years now. I moved away from my family, to State College, for the football season. I had many hard feelings about that. But I believed — as my wife believed — that it was the right thing to do. I came here to write about one of the giants of sports. And my wife and I both felt that the only way to tell the story, for better and worse, was to be around it every day.
The last week has torn me up emotionally. This doesn’t matter, of course. All that matters are the victims of the horrible crimes allegedly committed by former assistant coach Jerry Sandusky. I cannot say that enough times. Sometimes, I feel like the last week or so there has been a desperate race among commentators and others to prove that they are MORE against child molesting than anyone else. That makes me sick. We’re all sickened. We’re all heartbroken. We’re all beyond angry, in a place of rage where nothing seems real. The other day, I called it “howling.” I meant that in the purest sense of the word — crying in pain.
So, two points to get out of the way:
1. I think Joe Paterno had the responsibility as a leader and a man to stop the horrific rapes allegedly committed by Jerry Sandusky, and I believe he will have regrets about this for the rest of his life.
2. Because of this, Joe Paterno could no longer coach at Penn State University.
Beyond these two points, though, I said I wasn’t going to write about this because I feel like there’s still a lot of darkness around. I don’t know what Joe Paterno knew. I don’t know how he handled it. I don’t know if he followed up. I don’t know anything about Paterno’s role in this except for what little was said about that in the horrifying and stomach-turning grand jury findings. People have jumped to many conclusions about Paterno’s role and his negligence, and they might be right. I’ll say it again: They might be right. But they might be wrong, too. And I’m writing a book about the man. I can’t live in that world of maybes.
It hasn’t been easy to stay silent — nor is it my personality. As anyone who knows me will tell you, I will write 5,000 words about an infomercial I don’t like. But I thought it was important that I stay out of the middle of this, observe the scene, and I still think that’s important.
But — well, I’ve already said that my emotions don’t matter here, that they are nothing like what the victims went through, but for the purposes of this essay I’ll tell you them anyway: I’ve been wrecked the last week. Writing a book comes from the soul. It consumes you — mentally, emotionally, spiritually, all of it. I have thought about Joe Paterno, his strengths, his flaws, his triumphs, his failures, his core, pretty much nonstop for months now. I have talked to hundreds of people about him in all walks of life. I have read 25 or 30 books about him, countless articles. I’m not saying I know Joe Paterno. I’m saying I know a whole lot about him.
And what I know is complicated. But, beyond complications — and I really believe this with all my heart — there’s this, and this is exclusively my opinion: Joe Paterno has lived a profoundly decent life.
Nobody has really wanted to say this lately, and I grasp that. The last week has obviously shed a new light on him and his program — a horrible new light — and if you have any questions about how I feel about all that, please scroll back up to my two points at the top.
But I have seen some things in the last few days that have felt rotten, utterly wrong — a piling on that goes even beyond excessive, a dancing on the grave that makes me ill. Joe Paterno has lived a whole life. He has improved the lives of countless people. I know — I’ve talked to hundreds of them. Almost every day I walk by the library that he and his wife, Sue, built. I walk by the religious center that tries to bring people together, and his name is on the list of major donors. I hear the stories, the countless stories, of the kindnesses that came naturally to him, of the way he stuck with people in their worst moments, of the belief he had that everybody could do a little bit better — as a football player, as a student, as a human being. I’m not going to tell you these stories now, because you can’t hear them. Nobody can hear them in the howling.
But I will say that I am sickened, absolutely sickened, that some of those people whose lives were fundamentally inspired and galvanized by Joe Paterno have not stepped forward to stand up for him this week, have stood back and allowed him to be painted as an inhuman monster who was only interested in his legacy, even at the cost of the most heinous crimes against children imaginable.
Shame on them.
And why? I’ll tell you my opinion: Because they were afraid. And I understand that. A kind word for Joe Paterno in this storm is taken by many as a pro vote for a child molester. A quick, “Wait a minute, Joe Paterno is a good man. Let’s see what happened here” is translated as an attempt to minimize the horror of what Jerry Sandusky is charged with doing. It takes courage to stand behind someone you believe in when it’s this bad outside. It takes courage to stand up for a man in peril, even if he stood up for you.
And that’s shameful. I have not wanted to speak because it’s not my place to speak. I’m Joe Paterno’s biographer. I’m here to write about the man. I’m not here to write a fairy tale, and I’m not here to write a hit job, and I hope to be nowhere near either extreme. I’m here to write a whole story. I’ve had people ask me: “Will you include all this in the book?” Well, OF COURSE I will — this is the tragic ending of a legendary career. I’m going to wait for evidence, and if it turns out that Joe Paterno knowingly covered this up, then I will write that with all the power and fury I have in me.
I will wait, though. I will have to wait.
But then, yeah, I opened my big mouth. On Thursday morning, I went to speak at the “Paterno and the Media” class on the Penn State campus — I have spoken at the class the last two or three years. This was obviously one day after Paterno had been fired, and the campus had been turned inside out. I woke up wondering if I really should go. But I decided I had to go.
And when I was asked questions, I had to say how I felt. It spilled out of me. I suppose it caused a bit of a Twitter uproar — I say “I suppose,” because for the first time in memory I am not checking Twitter, and I think I’ll stay away for a while — but what I remember saying is:
1. Joe Paterno is responsible for what happens on his watch. Period.
2. People are making assumptions about what Joe did or didn’t know, what Joe did or didn’t do, and I can’t tell you that those assumptions are wrong. But I can tell you that they are assumptions based on one side of the story.
3. We are in a top-you world where everyone is not only trying to report something faster but is also trying to report something ANGRIER. One guy wants Joe Paterno to resign, the next wants him to be fired, the next wants him to be fired this minute, the next wants him to be fired and arrested, the next wants him to be fired, arrested and jailed, on and on, until we’ve lost sight of who actually committed the crimes here.
4. I think the University could not possibly have handled this worse. It was disgusting and disgraceful, the method in which they fired Joe Paterno after 60 years of service, and yes, I do think Paterno was a scapegoat. Of course he was. I’ve already said that he had to be let go. But to let him dangle out there, take up all the headlines, face the bulk of the media pressure, absolutely, that’s the very definition of scapegoat. Three people were indicted and arrested. A fourth, I hear, will be indicted soon. Joe Paterno is not one of the four.
5. It is still unclear what Paterno did in this case. It will remain unclear for a while. You might be one of the hundreds and hundreds of people I’ve heard from who know EXACTLY what Paterno did. He HAD to know this. He DEFINITELY knew that. He COULD have done something. I respect that. Joe Paterno’s a public figure. You have every right to believe what you want to believe and be absolutely certain about it. But since we have not heard from Joe, not heard from former athletic director Tim Curley, not heard from GA/assistant coach Mike McQueary, not heard from anyone who was in the room, I’ll repeat: It’s unclear. A determined grand jury did not charge Joe Paterno with any crime. A motivated reporting barrage, so far, anyway, has not uncovered a single thing that can tell us definitively what Joe Paterno knew.
You can say that he knew enough to stop this, and I’d say you were right. I have tried so hard to make it clear that I am not defending Joe Paterno’s actions or inactions, but I know that won’t be enough. You may be writing an email right now telling me how terrible child molestation is, how awful a person Joe Paterno is, how awful a person I am for wanting to wait and see. I understand. This case hits emotions that are unstoppable.
But I will say this: Paterno has paid a price here. His job is gone. His life’s work has been soiled. His reputation is in tatters. Maybe that should be the price. Maybe there should be more of a price. You don’t have to type: “Well, his price is nothing like the price of those victims…” I already know that.
But I think the way Joe Paterno has lived his life has earned him something more than instant fury, more than immediate assumptions of the worst, more than the happy cheers of critics who have always believed that there was something phony about the man and his ideals. He deserves what I would hope we all deserve — for the truth to come out, or, anyway, the closest thing to truth we can find.
I don’t think Joe Paterno has gotten that. And I think that’s sad.
And with that, I’m going back underground to wrestle with my book and doubts and emotions and everything that goes with that.
Nice to hear someone talk about personal responsibility rather than rely on plausible deniability.
Sure he is not truly convinced of the depth of knowledge Paterno has of the events, however he understands that it was Paterno's responsibility to know more.
Not all negligence is willful negligence, however we are still culpable.
For that he was rightfully relieved of his duties.
It's a start and I don't really think there is a need to discuss them any further (until new legal news warrants discussion). They're gone. That's most important.
Now Penn State needs to do more by dismantling the football program and anyone employed there since 1994 (put them all on paid leave until everything is sorted out, then bring them back if they were truly unaware of Sandusky).
Anything short of this is, in my opinion, not enough.
So no more Paterno, Spanier or McQueary talk from me unless new developments come to light.
Have a fun football Saturday! Go Blue! Go Noles!
Full Story
If this is true no one should be suprised. It is apparent that arrogance is a common trait among many at PSU.
Another sad twist to this tragic story.
Robert
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>A good honest perspective. Don't think I can disagree.
Nice to hear someone talk about personal responsibility rather than rely on plausible deniability.
Sure he is not truly convinced of the depth of knowledge Paterno has of the events, however he understands that it was Paterno's responsibility to know more.
Not all negligence is willful negligence, however we are still culpable.
For that he was rightfully relieved of his duties. >>
Paterno himself has stated (might not be exact) "I should have done more" - I would have liked to have heard him expand on that comment. Sadly though I have to imagine that his high priced lawyer likely told him not to speak too much, if at all.
Paterno I think probably meant the comment on the surface to imply that he should have called the police, but perhaps the comment could have much deeper meaning than that.
I have to believe that Paterno is in a state of shock right now. Knowing Paterno's character, I do think the truth will eventually come out. Anyone can bash Paterno all they want, but he's not a liar. So I for one am very interested to hear his side of the story. It might not be good, and I may not like it, and at this point to be honest I have a bad feeling that I'm really not going to like it because I love Joe Paterno...but the truth needs to come out, especially in this case involving children.
I for one hope this team kicks Cornhusker butt up and down the field today.
With everything that is going on it would be great to see the players have a season to remember more for the play than the scandal.
Not possible but to finish in the Top Ten would be a great feat.
<< <i>"Word is, Jerry Sandusky went shopping on Wednesday. At Dick’s Sporting Goods. Two workers at the store told me Friday that it was true – but said they weren’t in the store at the time and didn’t see him personally. Four other workers stiffly declined comment. Nobody refuted the story."
Full Story >>
This is a bit hard to believe that this guy should be out on bail...a cold calculating accused serial child molester, and now he's seen in a sporting goods store possibly loaded with kids. Who knows where else he has been in places where there are kids?
Ya know, "innocent until proven guilty" is fine and I believe in that...and I believe in reasonable bail, but this guy is a menace to society and extremely dangerous. Who knows what else is going thru his sick demented mind at this point. He probably knows he's going to prison for a long time, perhaps life...so he might be figuring he'll have one last fling, and maybe this time when he grabs some boy and does his filthy act, he may figure it's best this time not to have a witness. Why doesn't the criminal justice system think this thru for crying out loud?
This POS (allegedly) molests children over a period of years, he ruins my school, and now he's out enjoying himself, having a good time possibly looking for "prospects" - I am F*ing ticked off right now as much as I've ever been!!!
Story
<< <i>
<< <i>McQueary placed on indefinite leave....it's about fuggin time!
Also heard that cinder blocks were thrown through Jerry Sandusky's home windows! I love it! I hope it only gets worse for him...sitting, trapped in that house! >>
If he is in the house with his wife and/or other family members then I do NOT love it. I am sure his family has been hurt enough by his sick sick actions. HOWEVER, if someone wanted to throw a cinder block AT HIM then I am all for it. >>
Now that it is clear Sandusky is not going to off himself anytime soon, the judge should have him locked up for his family's protection. And be sure to leave some nice long sheets and a chair in his cell.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Exactly..most parents including myself would. I missed it somewhere, but why didn't the mother in the 98 case continue to do that? and why in hell would the da's office and police not keep an eye on this POS? >>
If these boys had low-functioning, single, black mothers (and it's starting to look that way) then you have to understand that you're talking about women who a) have never had much faith in law enforcement as a force for good in the world, and b) who don't have any idea what do next if they call the cops and nothing happens. I know this as a fact, as my wife used to work as a case manager in a welfare-to-work agency and knew a lot of women who fit this profile first-hand. Many of these moms just have no idea how to navigate their way effectively through entrenched power structures, and have no faith in their own ability to elicit swift and decisive action from the judicial system. They 'might' call the cops, though they're highly skeptical of the notion that a battalion of white guys are going to move heaven and Earth and champion the cause of their child. If things don't fall into place quickly after they make the phone call they assume (perhaps rightfully) that the world really doesn't care about their kids, or what happens to them, so they give it up.
. >>
This is a great post. >>
Yes it is a great post, and it is why it is foolish for anyone to defend or accuse anyone (other than Sandusky) in this entire mess without knowing all the facts.
One could argue that McQueary was in a similar quandry as the low income mom in Boo's post. Sandusky was reported to the police once before, and nothing came of it. McQueary went to Paterno, and nothing more came of it. Yet somehow a young grad assistant was going to, using Boo's words, navigate his way through the power structures and make headway to putting a stop to something that the police, prosecuting attorneys, and Joe Pa had failed to do already. For all we know, McQueary's solution to the problem was to try everything in his power in his position to steer children away from Sandusky. For all we know, someone showed up at McQueary's house late one night with a picture of McQueary's mother or sister or child and explained what would happen to them if McQueary said another word. Heck, it's possible that McQueary was one of Sandusky's victims many years before. It's also possible that McQueary himself abused young boys. Without knowing any of this, it's impossible, at least for me, to make rational arguments and be all mighty about "what I would have done" or what should be done to each of the people involved.