If you can't discuss this without throwing in the "your side" "my side" "liberals" "conservatives", et al then please stop posting. I’ve asked everyone to keep this apolitical and these comments aren’t a way around that request.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Well, well, well...so what do we have here?...McQuery likely wanted this leaked, and unless he is lying, and that would be stupid because the police logs could easily be checked on this, seems like McQuery did contact the police...that would mean he likely told Joe Paterno that, therefore one of my major premises here would be correct...that Joe felt he didn't have to do more at the time, other than tell the university administrator about it, because the police were already involved.
I'm still absorbing all the facts and evidence, and McQuery could be lying. I would like to see some polygraph tests done on some of these people. In any event, if Joe Paterno is shown to be totally innocent, I just hope some of the haters and hanging judges out there towards Joe Paterno will publicly apologize...but I now they probably won't, because liberal haters are usually unrepentant. >>
Steve, I know you always say how you feel regardless if it goes against what most people think and I do respect that about you. With that being said I want to ask you point blank your opinion on this.
IF McQuery did tell Joe Paterno that he contacted the police about improper behavior between Sandusky and children and Paterno was under the impression that the Police and the Admin of Penn State were "Working" on this matter dont you believe Paterno would have had the moral dignity to at least tell Sandusky that kids would no longer be allowed around the campus? It seems to me that Paterno at best didnt want to upset the apple cart which was the University and his Program regardless if Children were in harms way, Paterno himself said he wished he did more, more what? What does he mean do more? Put a stop to improper behavior going on his lockeroom? Paterno carried alot more weight at that University than most Admin did and either way he knew improper behavior was going on and he let it go on. How can you back a guy like that?
In the grand jury report, McQueary was described as "distraught." But until we hear from him, we'll never know what he was thinking, feeling or experiencing at that moment. There are few people in the world who can relate. Few who can truly say they know how they'd respond.
Jane Turner is one of them. For 25 years she worked for the FBI as a psychological profiler and an expert in child crimes. She would get child molesters to crack and confess. Law enforcement agencies would bring her in to teach investigators criminal profiling, crime scene assessment, the profiling of sexual offenders and how to interview child victims.
In 1999, she blew the whistle on a series of failures in the bureau to provide protection for child sex crime victims on North Dakota Indian reservations. Her allegations included the cover-up of a rape of a 2-year-old child by declaring her injuries the result of a car accident, and failure to follow-up on evidence that a television personality was sexually molesting children on the reservation. She also caught a fellow agent inappropriately touching a boy at an FBI firing range.
The moment she took her claims to her boss, her life forever changed. She now observes what McQueary is going through as eerily similar.
"Whether you have Penn State, the Catholic Church or the FBI, it's the same phenomenon," said Turner, now a featured speaker for the whistleblowers center's speakers bureau. "An insular culture and a hierarchy where the reputation of the institution is often more important than anything else.
"All of them give you a tremendous amount of power, adulation and glory. There was nothing better than to flash my creds and say 'FBI.' [McQueary] had the same things. The power. The glory. People think you're something special. And it becomes your family. The FBI was my substance, my identity. It was everything. He had the exact same thing."
While it isn't known what happened in the shower between McQueary and Sandusky, Turner said that given her expertise it would have been "100 percent normal" for McQueary to freeze, panic and shut down after seeing what he said he saw.
Turner said most adults have never even seen a photo of a man having sexual relations with a young boy, much less witnessed it. Further complicating things, Turner said, was the fact that Sandusky was seen as a role model in the community and someone McQueary had known nearly his entire life.
"You're trying to comprehend something your brain can't handle," Turner said. "You can't rationalize it. Compute it. Handle it. Most people turn around and walk away. And then they try to figure out, 'Oh my God. What the hell did I just see?' The people who say they would go in there and break it up? They're wrong. Nine times out of 10, that's just not how the human brain works."
thanks for posting that detroitfan....that reinforces what I've been saying since day 1 - it is impossible for us to know how we would react in such unique circumstances.
<< <i>thanks for posting that detroitfan....that reinforces what I've been saying since day 1 - it is impossible for us to know how we would react in such unique circumstances. >>
Mind you thats one Womans opinion, play it out a 100 times and I bet would bet every dime I have that 75% + would react and do SOMETHING
<< <i>thanks for posting that detroitfan....that reinforces what I've been saying since day 1 - it is impossible for us to know how we would react in such unique circumstances. >>
Mind you thats one Womans opinion, play it out a 100 times and I bet would bet every dime I have that 75% + would react and do SOMETHING >>
I was wondering which CU member was going to be the first to admit he was smarter than a person that worked for the FBI for 25 years as a psychological profiler and an expert in child crimes.
<< <i>thanks for posting that detroitfan....that reinforces what I've been saying since day 1 - it is impossible for us to know how we would react in such unique circumstances. >>
Mind you thats one Womans opinion, play it out a 100 times and I bet would bet every dime I have that 75% + would react and do SOMETHING >>
I was wondering which CU member was going to be the first to admit he was smarter than a person that worked for the FBI for 25 years as a psychological profiler and an expert in child crimes. >>
Well wonder some more, Im not saying Im smarter Im saying she is talking out of her ass. I know 2 people that work for the FBI, and both of them said that he was dead wrong not doing anything.
<< <i>thanks for posting that detroitfan....that reinforces what I've been saying since day 1 - it is impossible for us to know how we would react in such unique circumstances. >>
Mind you thats one Womans opinion, play it out a 100 times and I bet would bet every dime I have that 75% + would react and do SOMETHING >>
I was wondering which CU member was going to be the first to admit he was smarter than a person that worked for the FBI for 25 years as a psychological profiler and an expert in child crimes. >>
Well wonder some more, Im not saying Im smarter Im saying she is talking out of her ass. I know 2 people that work for the FBI, and both of them said that he was dead wrong not doing anything. >>
Perk, I don't think anyone is saying that not doing anything (if that's how it really went down) isn't wrong. I just have to wonder if there is some merit in the following:
"You're trying to comprehend something your brain can't handle," Turner said. "You can't rationalize it. Compute it. Handle it. Most people turn around and walk away. And then they try to figure out, 'Oh my God. What the hell did I just see?' The people who say they would go in there and break it up? They're wrong. Nine times out of 10, that's just not how the human brain works."
Of course, I'm still trying to figure out how a 10 year old doesn't need medical attention after something like this, so what do I know.
<< <i>thanks for posting that detroitfan....that reinforces what I've been saying since day 1 - it is impossible for us to know how we would react in such unique circumstances. >>
Mind you thats one Womans opinion, play it out a 100 times and I bet would bet every dime I have that 75% + would react and do SOMETHING >>
I was wondering which CU member was going to be the first to admit he was smarter than a person that worked for the FBI for 25 years as a psychological profiler and an expert in child crimes. >>
Well wonder some more, Im not saying Im smarter Im saying she is talking out of her ass. I know 2 people that work for the FBI, and both of them said that he was dead wrong not doing anything. >>
Perk, I don't think anyone is saying that not doing anything (if that's how it really went down) isn't wrong. I just have to wonder if there is some merit in the following:
"You're trying to comprehend something your brain can't handle," Turner said. "You can't rationalize it. Compute it. Handle it. Most people turn around and walk away. And then they try to figure out, 'Oh my God. What the hell did I just see?' The people who say they would go in there and break it up? They're wrong. Nine times out of 10, that's just not how the human brain works."
Of course, I'm still trying to figure out how a 10 year old doesn't need medical attention after something like this, so what do I know. >>
Every Human being is wired differently, I guess we can agree to disagree on our opinions on what to believe as far as knowing what most people would do. Im hearing he did do something, Im hearing he didnt do something Only him, Sandusky, the child and God knows what went down, So her saying its "Normal" to turn and walk away is unfounded, we dont know if that happened or not so based on that She is talking out of her ass, for all we know IF he did walk away it might have been because he didnt want to be the guy to blow the whistle on the Penn State Program we dont know just like She doesnt.
Either way at least we all agree it was a horrif tragic incident.
<< <i>Steve, I know you always say how you feel regardless if it goes against what most people think and I do respect that about you. >>
Perk, you know I love your sig...but I don't understand why somebody who dodges questions and inject politics is worthy of your respect. Plenty of people have opinions. I even respect many opinions that are different than mine; however, Steve's defense of Penn St. and Paterno isn't worthy of respect. JMHO.
If you can't discuss this without throwing in the "your side" "my side" "liberals" "conservatives", et al then please stop posting. I’ve asked everyone to keep this apolitical and these comments aren’t a way around that request.
Carol >>
Thank you Carol. Sad that the moderator has to ask certain grown men to respect the already established rules against posting their political views.
I would like to believe that I would go and intervene if I ever saw a well respected person in my community committing such an action, but I can't say for sure, because my brain has never been in that situation. I would love to think I'd do the right thing, however, I have to give McQueary some slack only because I never experienced it myself.
Now, if McQueary did tell the police, and Jopa knew McQueary told the police ???? Again, a whole lot of half-truths, non-truths, cover-ups, and a lot of other things will take place in order for these guys to save face and save their careers.
Do you think for a second that any of these guys are going to take the fall because of this Sandusky clown ? If you've never been in this situation, then think again. They are going to do what it takes to protect themselves from Sandusky and an unforgiving public.
<< <i>According the penn State officials....the Statue of Joe Paterno will be removed before Thanksgiving. >>
This is getting ridiculous. Did he need to go for apparently running a loose ship? Yeah, I believe so. But removing him from the trophy, taking down a statue, etc and really jumping the gun IMO. What's next? Hiring ex-Stalin employees to remove him from the official photo history? IMO, the guy simply got too old to effectively manage a program that had apparently become a being unto itself and too removed from reality to properly handle something like this.
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No matter the subject, news reporting agencies can always manage to dig up talking heads to support a given position- so the ex-FBI profiler's comments notwithstanding I am sure that someone could as easily dig up another "expert" to support an opposing view. I can think of multiple people including myself that, although undoubtedly we'd be initially shocked by seeing such a thing, would have no qualms about separating Sandusky from the boy right then and there, especially if the activity was as blatantly obvious as has been stated.
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
It seems that certain news agencies are jumping the gun. The school said on its Twitter feed that there are currently no plans, nor have there even been discussions about removing Paterno's statue.
<< <i>Steve, I know you always say how you feel regardless if it goes against what most people think and I do respect that about you. >>
Perk, you know I love your sig...but I don't understand why somebody who dodges questions and inject politics is worthy of your respect. Plenty of people have opinions. I even respect many opinions that are different than mine; however, Steve's defense of Penn St. and Paterno isn't worthy of respect. JMHO. >>
I was basicaly just saying I respect the guy for speaking his mind regardless if it was in favor of the majority, as far as him repeatedly bringing up politics that is a different matter where I feel he is being stubborn and very lucky carolj hasnt dropped the hammer on him.
Good because Franco Harris is an idiot, once again if it was HIS child his tune would be different. >>
Well, then you're an idiot in Franco's eyes, and hundreds of thousands of others.
But seriously, you're not an idiot, your just someone who sees this differently.
Jopa in no way deserves the harsh treatment he is getting.
Sandusky ? Yes The president of Penn State ? Yes The police (who were contacted) ? Yes
Jopa did his job. He reported it to the property authority.
And by the way, it would never be Franco's child. (You keep using that dumb line). These children were neglected by their fathers and or mothers. Their parents wanted nothing to do with them. That's why they gave them to Sandusky. If these kids parents cared in the least bit about them, then they would never have been abused by this creep.
Just as I expected. The lies, half-truths, misremembering, and cover ups have just begun.
STATE COLLEGE, Pa. – The State College police chief said Wednesday that Mike McQueary, the former Penn State graduate assistant who says he witnessed a sexual assault by former colleague Jerry Sandusky against a young boy, never reported the allegations to the department.
When asked whether McQueary had ever come to the police with the story of sex abuse, State College Police Chief Tom King said, "Absolutely not," NBC News reported.
Good because Franco Harris is an idiot, once again if it was HIS child his tune would be different. >>
Well, then you're an idiot in Franco's eyes, and hundreds of thousands of others.
But seriously, you're not an idiot, your just someone who sees this differently.
Jopa in no way deserves the harsh treatment he is getting.
Sandusky ? Yes The president of Penn State ? Yes The police (who were contacted) ? Yes
Jopa did his job. He reported it to the property authority.
And by the way, it would never be Franco's child. (You keep using that dumb line). These children were neglected by their fathers and or mothers. Their parents wanted nothing to do with them. That's why they gave them to Sandusky. If these kids parents cared in the least bit about them, then they would never have been abused by this creep. >>
I think the thing that turned me away from supporting Paterno is that he knew this guy was possibly raping kids....or at least did it once and yet he allowed him to remain on the coaching staff and have access to the campus and team. Just reporting it to the higher ups was not good enough. Paterno should have canned him right then and there and had nothing more to do with him. Paterno's indifference did nothing more than allow this pedofile to continue to abuse more children on the campus, exposing (pardon the pun) the college and Paterno himself to be held, at least partially liable for what happened to this (these) kids.
<< <i> I think the thing that turned me away from supporting Paterno is that he knew this guy was possibly raping kids..... >>
With all due respect, you have no way of knowing whether Jopa knew that this guy was possibly rapeing kids. And personally, I have no way of knowing.
Jopa is innocent until proven guilty, and we don't know anything, except that Jopa did report Sandusky to the school president. He did what he was legally obligated to do, and you and I know nothing about what he knew about Sandusky.
McQueary now says he reported it to the police. (At first he said he went home to tell his dad) The police are now saying McQueary never told them anything.
But you, perkdog, and everyone else on "your" side of this issue want to throw Jopa under the bus before his day in court.
That upsets me just a little bit. Casting stones before you know the facts.
<< <i> Paterno's indifference did nothing more than allow this pedofile to continue to abuse more children on the campus, . >>
While I see your point, do you perhaps see mine ?
I ask you this. Who was more responsible for these kids getting abused by Sandusky, these kids parents, or Jopa ?
These parents neglected their children from the get go. These types of kids come from homes that mom and dad are on crack, or could give a you know what about their children.
Jopa spent his whole life doing good for Penn State, it's players, the community, and is held in high regard. Now he is being thrown under the bus by everyone even though he reported this indecent act to the proper authority.
Jopa in no way is responsible for these kids being abused. #1 goes to Sandusky #2 goes to the parents of these children #3 goes to the school president #4 goes to McQueary
Jopa isn't even on the list. He did what he was legally obligated to do.
That upsets me just a little bit. Casting stones before you know the facts. >>
I can understand you being upset about some of the hyperbole. But for me, only one fact matters regarding Paterno - he had reason to believe one of his assistants MIGHT BE acting inappropriately with young boys, and he washed his hands of it after kicking it up the food chain.
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<< <i> Paterno's indifference did nothing more than allow this pedofile to continue to abuse more children on the campus, . >>
While I see your point, do you perhaps see mine ?
I ask you this. Who was more responsible for these kids getting abused by Sandusky, these kids parents, or Jopa ?
These parents neglected their children from the get go. These types of kids come from homes that mom and dad are on crack, or could give a you know what about their children.
Jopa spent his whole life doing good for Penn State, it's players, the community, and is held in high regard. Now he is being thrown under the bus by everyone even though he reported this indecent act to the proper authority.
Jopa in no way is responsible for these kids being abused. #1 goes to Sandusky #2 goes to the parents of these children #3 goes to the school president #4 goes to McQueary
Jopa isn't even on the list. He did what he was legally obligated to do. >>
EF, I'm not defending or accusing anyone until I have all the facts, but I fail to see how McQueary and the president can both be more responsible than Paterno. Depending on how you view it, the responsibility either increases as the authority increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than McQueary), or the responsibility increases as the "closeness" to Sandusky and the incident increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than the president). Regardless of the view, if McQueary and the president are on the list, then Paterno has to be on the list, right between those two in the order.
<< <i> EF, I'm not defending or accusing anyone until I have all the facts, but I fail to see how McQueary and the president can both be more responsible than Paterno. Depending on how you view it, the responsibility either increases as the authority increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than McQueary), or the responsibility increases as the "closeness" to Sandusky and the incident increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than the president). Regardless of the view, if McQueary and the president are on the list, then Paterno has to be on the list, right between those two in the order. >>
If a 6 ft 2 in 200 lb sixty year old guy is abusing a boy, and there are two others in the room.
One guy is 26 years old. He stands at 6'2 and weighs 195. The other guy is 72 years old, and stands 5'9 and weighs 170, who is "more responsible" to protect the boy ?
Advantage McQueary
If a school president knows of child abuse on campus, and a school football coach is trained to tell the school president of any abuses in his program, who is responsible for the protection of the child ?
Advantage school president
If a college coach is trained to report any wrongdoings to the school president, and he does exactly as he is trained to do, who has done the right thing ?
<< <i> I can understand you being upset about some of the hyperbole. But for me, only one fact matters regarding Paterno - he had reason to believe one of his assistants MIGHT BE acting inappropriately with young boys, and he washed his hands of it after kicking it up the food chain. >>
Washed his hands of it ??? This is just a flat out lie. Jopa did what he was supposed to do. He reported it to the property authority. In no way did he "wash his hands of it". What BS. He for crying out loud reported it to someone who could fire the creep, or contact the police.
Jopa does not call the police about his players or coaches. That is not in his job description, nor is it his responsibility. It is the school presidents job to do this. Please go and read college regulations about these matters.
<< <i> EF, I'm not defending or accusing anyone until I have all the facts, but I fail to see how McQueary and the president can both be more responsible than Paterno. Depending on how you view it, the responsibility either increases as the authority increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than McQueary), or the responsibility increases as the "closeness" to Sandusky and the incident increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than the president). Regardless of the view, if McQueary and the president are on the list, then Paterno has to be on the list, right between those two in the order. >>
If a 6 ft 2 in 200 lb sixty year old guy is abusing a boy, and there are two others in the room.
One guy is 26 years old. He stands at 6'2 and weighs 195. The other guy is 72 years old, and stands 5'9 and weighs 170, who is "more responsible" to protect the boy ?
Advantage McQueary
If a school president knows of child abuse on campus, and a school football coach is trained to tell the school president of any abuses in his program, who is responsible for the protection of the child ?
Advantage school president
If a college coach is trained to report any wrongdoings to the school president, and he does exactly as he is trained to do, who has done the right thing ?
Advantage Jopa >>
How about a hypothetical? A journalist walks into the shower instead of McQueary. He's trained to report on the story as a dispassionate observer. Is it OK for him to simply report what he saw and take no further action?
Now, same hypothetical except this time the journalist gets wind of the abuse second hand. Does he have any obligation to intervene beyond what his training tells him to do?
Bottom line is that everyone seems to have done just enough, yet boys were still being abused when it could have been prevented if ANY of them had come out from behind the shield of what they were required to do.
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Bottom line is that everyone seems to have done just enough, yet boys were still being abused when it could have been prevented if ANY of them had come out from behind the shield of what they were required to do. >>
No, here's the bottom line. These kids would have never been abused if Sandusky wasn't an idiot. These kids would have never been abused if these kids parents weren't idiots.
The responsibility of raising your children belongs to you and me. If I'm stupid enough to put my young child in the care of a total stranger, then shame on me. If I'm too interested in my crack cocaine lifestyle, and screwing every momma in the hood while my kid walks the street until 1 am in the morning, then shame on me.
This perkdog, "What if this was your child" BS is a joke. Who in their right mind would let their 10 year old child spend the night with Micheal Jackson, or let them spend their life with a total stranger like Sandusky ? Obviously these parents don't give a rats a## about their kids.
<< <i> EF, I'm not defending or accusing anyone until I have all the facts, but I fail to see how McQueary and the president can both be more responsible than Paterno. Depending on how you view it, the responsibility either increases as the authority increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than McQueary), or the responsibility increases as the "closeness" to Sandusky and the incident increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than the president). Regardless of the view, if McQueary and the president are on the list, then Paterno has to be on the list, right between those two in the order. >>
If a 6 ft 2 in 200 lb sixty year old guy is abusing a boy, and there are two others in the room.
One guy is 26 years old. He stands at 6'2 and weighs 195. The other guy is 72 years old, and stands 5'9 and weighs 170, who is "more responsible" to protect the boy ?
Advantage McQueary
If a school president knows of child abuse on campus, and a school football coach is trained to tell the school president of any abuses in his program, who is responsible for the protection of the child ?
Advantage school president
If a college coach is trained to report any wrongdoings to the school president, and he does exactly as he is trained to do, who has done the right thing ?
Advantage Jopa >>
Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought in an earlier post you said:
"I agree with detroitfan2 and the FBI agent.
I would like to believe that I would go and intervene if I ever saw a well respected person in my community committing such an action, but I can't say for sure, because my brain has never been in that situation. I would love to think I'd do the right thing, however, I have to give McQueary some slack only because I never experienced it myself."
That must have been another edmundfitzgerald with a royal flush avatar.
In any case, it sounds like what you're saying is that if McQueary pounds the naked 72 year old into submission in the locker room, no boy is every abused again by Sandusky again. Maybe that's a good point, I need to think about how it would have played out differently.
But if you're going to tell me from that day forward McQueary was somehow more responsible than Paterno yet Paterno was less responsible than the president, than I don't know what to say.
<< <i> How about a hypothetical? A journalist walks into the shower instead of McQueary. He's trained to report on the story as a dispassionate observer. Is it OK for him to simply report what he saw and take no further action?
Now, same hypothetical except this time the journalist gets wind of the abuse second hand. Does he have any obligation to intervene beyond what his training tells him to do?
Bottom line is that everyone seems to have done just enough, yet boys were still being abused when it could have been prevented if ANY of them had come out from behind the shield of what they were required to do. >>
Yes, it's ok for him to report what he saw. It would be commendable if he did more. But he should not be thrown under the bus if he reported it to the proper authority. Again, it would be "commendable". If the journalist found out second hand about the abuse, then the journalist should follow whatever his training leads him to do. I'm sure his training would teach him to either call the proper authority, or ask the head of the paper to run a story about it.
Bottom line is that when the kids were getting abused, it was the school presidents job to contact the police. Once that is done, it's the police's job to investigate the matter. That is the end of discussion. There is really no other angle on this. If the school president followed up on his responsibility, and the local police pursued this matter with the parents of these kids, then Sandusky would be behind bars already.
Again, Jopa did everything he was supposed to do legally. He did the right thing. What else do you expect a 72 year old frail guy to do other then report this crime ? Is he the police ? No, he isn't. Is he the school president?? No, he isn't. Is he the football coach ??? Yes, he is. Did he report an incident to the proper authority ?? Yes, he did.
<< <i> I would like to believe that I would go and intervene if I ever saw a well respected person in my community committing such an action, but I can't say for sure, because my brain has never been in that situation. I would love to think I'd do the right thing, however, I have to give McQueary some slack only because I never experienced it myself."
. >>
Yes, I believe that McQueary and Paterno followed the proper channels if they reported it to the proper authorities.
But if I were McQueary, and I honestly saw a guy sexually assualting a child in the shower, I would love to think with his size, I would physically intervene if necessary. Jopa could not physically intervene.
Then again, I believe that McQueary and Jopa followed the right procedures if they did report the abuse.
Good because Franco Harris is an idiot, once again if it was HIS child his tune would be different. >>
Well, then you're an idiot in Franco's eyes, and hundreds of thousands of others.
But seriously, you're not an idiot, your just someone who sees this differently.
Jopa in no way deserves the harsh treatment he is getting.
Sandusky ? Yes The president of Penn State ? Yes The police (who were contacted) ? Yes
Jopa did his job. He reported it to the property authority.
And by the way, it would never be Franco's child. (You keep using that dumb line). These children were neglected by their fathers and or mothers. Their parents wanted nothing to do with them. That's why they gave them to Sandusky. If these kids parents cared in the least bit about them, then they would never have been abused by this creep. >>
Dumb line because its a valid point that you refuse to see? Im not so sure whats so hard about that for you to understand- let me explain to you so you can fully understand, these yahoos who defend Paterno WOULD NOT BE DEFENDING HIM IF IT WERE THEIR CHILD.
Keep believing in Paterno, keep living in a dream world, keep thinking its ok to report something half assed and look the other way while the problem is not solved.
Bottom line Paterno should have put a stop to allowing Sandusky to be the pied piper with the trail of children following him around his althetic facilities. You dont get it and you wont so carry on and while your at it build a godam shrine in your house of Joe Paterno and drink the kool Aid along with all these other morons that fail to see that Paterno was an enabler for this activity.
Make your come back and get the last word in because Im done with this thread and done listening to every godam idiot here that defends Paterno.
Last word - Please continue to protect your children and be a good parent that Im sure you are and hope they never are in a situation where a guy like Sandusky is allowed to operate for YEARS under a guy like Paterno..
Paterno is NOT a great man. He is not deserving of being immortalized. Great men would not have let a child rapist continue to run rampant on his campus.
That was Paterno's house, and he knew that Sandusky did those acts, and yet Sandusky was still bringing kids all over Penn state for years to come. Paterno simply turned his cheek.
A great man would have gone to the ends of the earth to ensure that scum like that would not be around his program with kids...or even without them.
Paterno is not being treated harshly...just that we recognize now that he isn't quite as deserving of the accolades he has been givein the past...such as being the proprietor of a large football program, having your name on a championship trophy, and having a statue on campus. Those rights are deserved for high level people with great integrity, who settle for nothing but excellence and due dilligence....all qualities he did not show in something horrible happening right in his backyard.
Edmund, as for Perkdog's "if it were your kid" example, yes morons like Franco Harris(or yourself) would indeed be singing different tunes. Outstanding parents in the world have had kids who have been preyd on by child predators...so your blaming the parents is wrong.
There was a guy who could have put a stop to it...and if he were a great man...Sandusky would never have been allowed to step foot on his campus after the 1998 incident or the 2002 one....but he put the program ahead of the kids.
Paterno is gettin his just reevalation of his character.
I personally could give a rats a** about Paterno and Penn State.
Here's something you will never get.
It's not Jopa's job to protect your child. It's your job. If something bad ever happens to your child, do me a favor, don't blame Jopa. Blame yourself.
If your kid ever gets raped by a hockey coach because you were dumb enough to let your 9 year old spend the night in a hotel during a hockey tournament, then don't blame the coach, blame yourself. If your 11 year old ever gets raped by a boy scout counselor during a weekend trip, then don't blame the counselor, blame yourself for being a dumb a** dad.
Take responsibility for yourself and your kids, because it's an evil world out there.
<< <i> I can understand you being upset about some of the hyperbole. But for me, only one fact matters regarding Paterno - he had reason to believe one of his assistants MIGHT BE acting inappropriately with young boys, and he washed his hands of it after kicking it up the food chain. >>
Washed his hands of it ??? This is just a flat out lie. Jopa did what he was supposed to do. He reported it to the property authority. In no way did he "wash his hands of it". What BS. He for crying out loud reported it to someone who could fire the creep, or contact the police.
Jopa does not call the police about his players or coaches. That is not in his job description, nor is it his responsibility. It is the school presidents job to do this. Please go and read college regulations about these matters. >>
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<< <i>Paterno is NOT a great man. He is not deserving of being immortalized. Great men would not have let a child rapist continue to run rampant on his campus.
That was Paterno's house, and he knew that Sandusky did those acts, and yet Sandusky was still bringing kids all over Penn state for years to come. Paterno simply turned his cheek.
. >>
OMG. Paterno reported this guy to the police for the umpteenth time.
Let me ask you this. Let's say you see a 50 year old guy and 11 year old showering in the locker room at your school, and you report them to the school administrator, who reports them to the police, and there is a case opened up, and afterwards the 50 year old is allowed to return to your school.
What would you think ??? Perhaps that the police and parents handled the matter ??? Perhaps that this guy is legally allowed to continue his life at the school ??? Obviously the 50 year old did not go to jail. Obviously the 50 year old did not get a guilty verdict or he would be serving time for sexually misconduct with a minor, which in Pennsylvania carriers a jail sentence.
<< <i>I personally could give a rats a** about Paterno and Penn State.
Here's something you will never get.
It's not Jopa's job to protect your child. It's your job. If something bad ever happens to your child, do me a favor, don't blame Jopa. Blame yourself.
If your kid ever gets raped by a hockey coach because you were dumb enough to let your 9 year old spend the night in a hotel during a hockey tournament, then don't blame the coach, blame yourself. If your 11 year old ever gets raped by a boy scout counselor during a weekend trip, then don't blame the counselor, blame yourself for being a dumb a** dad.
Take responsibility for yourself and your kids, because it's an evil world out there. >>
Or, if the hockey league director who knows that the coach who is molesting your child has done that already...he has a few simple steps to stop it.
Or, if the boy scout directors who knows that the counselor is a child rapist and he says nothing while his counselor continues to operate under his nose...any decent person would ensure that the counselor wouldn't be allowed in or around his program.
No it isn't Paterno's job to protect your child...only a great man would have done something to halt the bad stuff going on in his yard. A great man! Obviously, a great man Penn state was lacking. Good thing they recognized a coward...and made some steps to fix their inaccurate perception they had of him previous to this stuff going on under his nose.
Sandusky, SteveK, and Edmundfitzgerald...their defenses are all the same....RIDICULOUS!
It seems like it is time to just brush SteveK and Edmundfitzgerald off.
Based on the ridiculousness of Sandusky's, Stevek's, and Edmunfitzgerald's words of defense...they are all very similar. Not good company to be in, yikes.
I wonder how those guys like Franco Harris, Stevek, and Edmundfitzgerald feel when their hear Sandusky's reasoning for taking part in naked horse play with 10 year old boys in the shower? Do they see the ridiculousness in that?
I hope they see it...because that is how all the non bias intelligent people feel toward their attempts at defending Paterno and thinking he should still be classified as some great iconic man who epitomizes high character levels.
Or, if the hockey league director who knows that the coach who is molesting your child has done that already...he has a few simple steps to stop it.
Or, if the boy scout directors who knows that the counselor is a child rapist and he says nothing while his counselor continues to operate under his nose...any decent person would ensure that the counselor wouldn't be allowed in or around his program.
! >>
You are totally clueless. The scout director did report to the counselor that there was a child rapist. The child rapist was dealt with by the police. The child rapist was let free by the investigators. The scout director did what he was supposed to do.
Do you understand that Jopa reported this guy, and this guy was let go by the police investigation ? Please answer me if you understand this simple fact.
A lengthy police report was generated, state prosecutors said. The boy was interviewed. A second potential victim was identified. Child welfare authorities were brought in. Sandusky confessed to showering with one or both of the children. The local district attorney was given material to consider prosecution.
In the end, no prosecution was undertaken. The child welfare agency did not take action. And, according to prosecutors, the commander of the university’s campus police force told his detective, Ronald Schreffler, to close the case.
“Sandusky admitted showering naked with Victim 6, admitted to hugging Victim 6 while in the shower and admitted that it was wrong,” said the report issued last weekend by the Pennsylvania attorney general. “Detective Schreffler advised Sandusky not to shower with any child again and Sandusky said that he would not.”
Where does it say Paterno called the police? Where does it say what Paterno learned in 1998? Where does it say that Paterno was informed in 1998 that this guy was cleared to live a normal life?
You are the only person that I am aware of who is saying these things.
The link you just posted doesn't even mention the name Paterno in it!
Comments
<< <i>stevek
If you can't discuss this without throwing in the "your side" "my side" "liberals" "conservatives", et al then please stop posting.
I’ve asked everyone to keep this apolitical and these comments aren’t a way around that request.
Carol >>
Okay Carol.
Timing is everything. Probably nothing.........MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Well, well, well...so what do we have here?...McQuery likely wanted this leaked, and unless he is lying, and that would be stupid because the police logs could easily be checked on this, seems like McQuery did contact the police...that would mean he likely told Joe Paterno that, therefore one of my major premises here would be correct...that Joe felt he didn't have to do more at the time, other than tell the university administrator about it, because the police were already involved.
I'm still absorbing all the facts and evidence, and McQuery could be lying. I would like to see some polygraph tests done on some of these people. In any event, if Joe Paterno is shown to be totally innocent, I just hope some of the haters and hanging judges out there towards Joe Paterno will publicly apologize...but I now they probably won't, because liberal haters are usually unrepentant. >>
Steve, I know you always say how you feel regardless if it goes against what most people think and I do respect that about you. With that being said I want to ask you point blank your opinion on this.
IF McQuery did tell Joe Paterno that he contacted the police about improper behavior between Sandusky and children and Paterno was under the impression that the Police and the Admin of Penn State were "Working" on this matter dont you believe Paterno would have had the moral dignity to at least tell Sandusky that kids would no longer be allowed around the campus? It seems to me that Paterno at best didnt want to upset the apple cart which was the University and his Program regardless if Children were in harms way, Paterno himself said he wished he did more, more what? What does he mean do more? Put a stop to improper behavior going on his lockeroom? Paterno carried alot more weight at that University than most Admin did and either way he knew improper behavior was going on and he let it go on. How can you back a guy like that?
In the grand jury report, McQueary was described as "distraught." But until we hear from him, we'll never know what he was thinking, feeling or experiencing at that moment. There are few people in the world who can relate. Few who can truly say they know how they'd respond.
Jane Turner is one of them. For 25 years she worked for the FBI as a psychological profiler and an expert in child crimes. She would get child molesters to crack and confess. Law enforcement agencies would bring her in to teach investigators criminal profiling, crime scene assessment, the profiling of sexual offenders and how to interview child victims.
In 1999, she blew the whistle on a series of failures in the bureau to provide protection for child sex crime victims on North Dakota Indian reservations. Her allegations included the cover-up of a rape of a 2-year-old child by declaring her injuries the result of a car accident, and failure to follow-up on evidence that a television personality was sexually molesting children on the reservation. She also caught a fellow agent inappropriately touching a boy at an FBI firing range.
The moment she took her claims to her boss, her life forever changed. She now observes what McQueary is going through as eerily similar.
"Whether you have Penn State, the Catholic Church or the FBI, it's the same phenomenon," said Turner, now a featured speaker for the whistleblowers center's speakers bureau. "An insular culture and a hierarchy where the reputation of the institution is often more important than anything else.
"All of them give you a tremendous amount of power, adulation and glory. There was nothing better than to flash my creds and say 'FBI.' [McQueary] had the same things. The power. The glory. People think you're something special. And it becomes your family. The FBI was my substance, my identity. It was everything. He had the exact same thing."
While it isn't known what happened in the shower between McQueary and Sandusky, Turner said that given her expertise it would have been "100 percent normal" for McQueary to freeze, panic and shut down after seeing what he said he saw.
Turner said most adults have never even seen a photo of a man having sexual relations with a young boy, much less witnessed it. Further complicating things, Turner said, was the fact that Sandusky was seen as a role model in the community and someone McQueary had known nearly his entire life.
"You're trying to comprehend something your brain can't handle," Turner said. "You can't rationalize it. Compute it. Handle it. Most people turn around and walk away. And then they try to figure out, 'Oh my God. What the hell did I just see?' The people who say they would go in there and break it up? They're wrong. Nine times out of 10, that's just not how the human brain works."
<< <i>thanks for posting that detroitfan....that reinforces what I've been saying since day 1 - it is impossible for us to know how we would react in such unique circumstances. >>
Mind you thats one Womans opinion, play it out a 100 times and I bet would bet every dime I have that 75% + would react and do SOMETHING
<< <i>
<< <i>thanks for posting that detroitfan....that reinforces what I've been saying since day 1 - it is impossible for us to know how we would react in such unique circumstances. >>
Mind you thats one Womans opinion, play it out a 100 times and I bet would bet every dime I have that 75% + would react and do SOMETHING >>
I was wondering which CU member was going to be the first to admit he was smarter than a person that worked for the FBI for 25 years as a psychological profiler and an expert in child crimes.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>thanks for posting that detroitfan....that reinforces what I've been saying since day 1 - it is impossible for us to know how we would react in such unique circumstances. >>
Mind you thats one Womans opinion, play it out a 100 times and I bet would bet every dime I have that 75% + would react and do SOMETHING >>
I was wondering which CU member was going to be the first to admit he was smarter than a person that worked for the FBI for 25 years as a psychological profiler and an expert in child crimes. >>
Well wonder some more, Im not saying Im smarter Im saying she is talking out of her ass. I know 2 people that work for the FBI, and both of them said that he was dead wrong not doing anything.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>thanks for posting that detroitfan....that reinforces what I've been saying since day 1 - it is impossible for us to know how we would react in such unique circumstances. >>
Mind you thats one Womans opinion, play it out a 100 times and I bet would bet every dime I have that 75% + would react and do SOMETHING >>
I was wondering which CU member was going to be the first to admit he was smarter than a person that worked for the FBI for 25 years as a psychological profiler and an expert in child crimes. >>
Well wonder some more, Im not saying Im smarter Im saying she is talking out of her ass. I know 2 people that work for the FBI, and both of them said that he was dead wrong not doing anything. >>
Perk, I don't think anyone is saying that not doing anything (if that's how it really went down) isn't wrong. I just have to wonder if there is some merit in the following:
"You're trying to comprehend something your brain can't handle," Turner said. "You can't rationalize it. Compute it. Handle it. Most people turn around and walk away. And then they try to figure out, 'Oh my God. What the hell did I just see?' The people who say they would go in there and break it up? They're wrong. Nine times out of 10, that's just not how the human brain works."
Of course, I'm still trying to figure out how a 10 year old doesn't need medical attention after something like this, so what do I know.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>thanks for posting that detroitfan....that reinforces what I've been saying since day 1 - it is impossible for us to know how we would react in such unique circumstances. >>
Mind you thats one Womans opinion, play it out a 100 times and I bet would bet every dime I have that 75% + would react and do SOMETHING >>
I was wondering which CU member was going to be the first to admit he was smarter than a person that worked for the FBI for 25 years as a psychological profiler and an expert in child crimes. >>
Well wonder some more, Im not saying Im smarter Im saying she is talking out of her ass. I know 2 people that work for the FBI, and both of them said that he was dead wrong not doing anything. >>
Perk, I don't think anyone is saying that not doing anything (if that's how it really went down) isn't wrong. I just have to wonder if there is some merit in the following:
"You're trying to comprehend something your brain can't handle," Turner said. "You can't rationalize it. Compute it. Handle it. Most people turn around and walk away. And then they try to figure out, 'Oh my God. What the hell did I just see?' The people who say they would go in there and break it up? They're wrong. Nine times out of 10, that's just not how the human brain works."
Of course, I'm still trying to figure out how a 10 year old doesn't need medical attention after something like this, so what do I know. >>
Every Human being is wired differently, I guess we can agree to disagree on our opinions on what to believe as far as knowing what most people would do. Im hearing he did do something, Im hearing he didnt do something Only him, Sandusky, the child and God knows what went down, So her saying its "Normal" to turn and walk away is unfounded, we dont know if that happened or not so based on that She is talking out of her ass, for all we know IF he did walk away it might have been because he didnt want to be the guy to blow the whistle on the Penn State Program we dont know just like She doesnt.
Either way at least we all agree it was a horrif tragic incident.
<< <i>Steve, I know you always say how you feel regardless if it goes against what most people think and I do respect that about you. >>
Perk, you know I love your sig...but I don't understand why somebody who dodges questions and inject politics is worthy of your respect. Plenty of people have opinions. I even respect many opinions that are different than mine; however, Steve's defense of Penn St. and Paterno isn't worthy of respect. JMHO.
<< <i>stevek
If you can't discuss this without throwing in the "your side" "my side" "liberals" "conservatives", et al then please stop posting.
I’ve asked everyone to keep this apolitical and these comments aren’t a way around that request.
Carol >>
Thank you Carol. Sad that the moderator has to ask certain grown men to respect the already established rules against posting their political views.
I would like to believe that I would go and intervene if I ever saw a well respected person in my community committing
such an action, but I can't say for sure, because my brain has never been in that situation. I would love to think I'd
do the right thing, however, I have to give McQueary some slack only because I never experienced it myself.
Now, if McQueary did tell the police, and Jopa knew McQueary told the police ????
Again, a whole lot of half-truths, non-truths, cover-ups, and a lot of other things will take place in order for
these guys to save face and save their careers.
Do you think for a second that any of these guys are going to take the fall because of this Sandusky clown ?
If you've never been in this situation, then think again. They are going to do what it takes to protect themselves from
Sandusky and an unforgiving public.
LINK TO STORY
<< <i>According the penn State officials....the Statue of Joe Paterno will be removed before Thanksgiving. >>
This is getting ridiculous. Did he need to go for apparently running a loose ship? Yeah, I believe so. But removing him from the trophy, taking down a statue, etc and really jumping the gun IMO. What's next? Hiring ex-Stalin employees to remove him from the official photo history? IMO, the guy simply got too old to effectively manage a program that had apparently become a being unto itself and too removed from reality to properly handle something like this.
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<< <i>
<< <i>Steve, I know you always say how you feel regardless if it goes against what most people think and I do respect that about you. >>
Perk, you know I love your sig...but I don't understand why somebody who dodges questions and inject politics is worthy of your respect. Plenty of people have opinions. I even respect many opinions that are different than mine; however, Steve's defense of Penn St. and Paterno isn't worthy of respect. JMHO. >>
I was basicaly just saying I respect the guy for speaking his mind regardless if it was in favor of the majority, as far as him repeatedly bringing up politics that is a different matter where I feel he is being stubborn and very lucky carolj hasnt dropped the hammer on him.
<< <i>FRANCO HARRIS was just fired from his job at THE MEADOWS RACETRACK for his comments supporting Joe Paterno. >>
Good because Franco Harris is an idiot, once again if it was HIS child his tune would be different.
<< <i>
Good because Franco Harris is an idiot, once again if it was HIS child his tune would be different. >>
Well, then you're an idiot in Franco's eyes, and hundreds of thousands of others.
But seriously, you're not an idiot, your just someone who sees this differently.
Jopa in no way deserves the harsh treatment he is getting.
Sandusky ? Yes
The president of Penn State ? Yes
The police (who were contacted) ? Yes
Jopa did his job. He reported it to the property authority.
And by the way, it would never be Franco's child. (You keep using that dumb line). These children were neglected by their fathers and or mothers. Their parents wanted nothing to do with them. That's why they gave them to Sandusky. If these kids parents cared in the least
bit about them, then they would never have been abused by this creep.
STATE COLLEGE, Pa. – The State College police chief said Wednesday that Mike McQueary, the former Penn State graduate assistant who says he witnessed a sexual assault by former colleague Jerry Sandusky against a young boy, never reported the allegations to the department.
When asked whether McQueary had ever come to the police with the story of sex abuse, State College Police Chief Tom King said, "Absolutely not," NBC News reported.
<< <i>
<< <i>
Good because Franco Harris is an idiot, once again if it was HIS child his tune would be different. >>
Well, then you're an idiot in Franco's eyes, and hundreds of thousands of others.
But seriously, you're not an idiot, your just someone who sees this differently.
Jopa in no way deserves the harsh treatment he is getting.
Sandusky ? Yes
The president of Penn State ? Yes
The police (who were contacted) ? Yes
Jopa did his job. He reported it to the property authority.
And by the way, it would never be Franco's child. (You keep using that dumb line). These children were neglected by their fathers and or mothers. Their parents wanted nothing to do with them. That's why they gave them to Sandusky. If these kids parents cared in the least
bit about them, then they would never have been abused by this creep. >>
I think the thing that turned me away from supporting Paterno is that he knew this guy was possibly raping kids....or at least did it once and yet he allowed him to remain on the coaching staff and have access to the campus and team. Just reporting it to the higher ups was not good enough. Paterno should have canned him right then and there and had nothing more to do with him. Paterno's indifference did nothing more than allow this pedofile to continue to abuse more children on the campus, exposing (pardon the pun) the college and Paterno himself to be held, at least partially liable for what happened to this (these) kids.
<< <i>
I think the thing that turned me away from supporting Paterno is that he knew this guy was possibly raping kids..... >>
With all due respect, you have no way of knowing whether Jopa knew that this guy was possibly rapeing kids.
And personally, I have no way of knowing.
Jopa is innocent until proven guilty, and we don't know anything, except that Jopa did report Sandusky to the school
president. He did what he was legally obligated to do, and you and I know nothing about what he knew about Sandusky.
McQueary now says he reported it to the police. (At first he said he went home to tell his dad)
The police are now saying McQueary never told them anything.
But you, perkdog, and everyone else on "your" side of this issue want to throw Jopa under the bus before his day in court.
That upsets me just a little bit. Casting stones before you know the facts.
<< <i> Paterno's indifference did nothing more than allow this pedofile to continue to abuse more children on the campus, . >>
While I see your point, do you perhaps see mine ?
I ask you this. Who was more responsible for these kids getting abused by Sandusky, these kids parents, or Jopa ?
These parents neglected their children from the get go. These types of kids come from homes that mom and dad are on crack,
or could give a you know what about their children.
Jopa spent his whole life doing good for Penn State, it's players, the community, and is held in high regard. Now he is being
thrown under the bus by everyone even though he reported this indecent act to the proper authority.
Jopa in no way is responsible for these kids being abused.
#1 goes to Sandusky
#2 goes to the parents of these children
#3 goes to the school president
#4 goes to McQueary
Jopa isn't even on the list. He did what he was legally obligated to do.
<< <i>
That upsets me just a little bit. Casting stones before you know the facts. >>
I can understand you being upset about some of the hyperbole. But for me, only one fact matters regarding Paterno - he had reason to believe one of his assistants MIGHT BE acting inappropriately with young boys, and he washed his hands of it after kicking it up the food chain.
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<< <i>
<< <i> Paterno's indifference did nothing more than allow this pedofile to continue to abuse more children on the campus, . >>
While I see your point, do you perhaps see mine ?
I ask you this. Who was more responsible for these kids getting abused by Sandusky, these kids parents, or Jopa ?
These parents neglected their children from the get go. These types of kids come from homes that mom and dad are on crack,
or could give a you know what about their children.
Jopa spent his whole life doing good for Penn State, it's players, the community, and is held in high regard. Now he is being
thrown under the bus by everyone even though he reported this indecent act to the proper authority.
Jopa in no way is responsible for these kids being abused.
#1 goes to Sandusky
#2 goes to the parents of these children
#3 goes to the school president
#4 goes to McQueary
Jopa isn't even on the list. He did what he was legally obligated to do. >>
EF, I'm not defending or accusing anyone until I have all the facts, but I fail to see how McQueary and the president can both be more responsible than Paterno. Depending on how you view it, the responsibility either increases as the authority increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than McQueary), or the responsibility increases as the "closeness" to Sandusky and the incident increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than the president). Regardless of the view, if McQueary and the president are on the list, then Paterno has to be on the list, right between those two in the order.
<< <i>
EF, I'm not defending or accusing anyone until I have all the facts, but I fail to see how McQueary and the president can both be more responsible than Paterno. Depending on how you view it, the responsibility either increases as the authority increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than McQueary), or the responsibility increases as the "closeness" to Sandusky and the incident increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than the president). Regardless of the view, if McQueary and the president are on the list, then Paterno has to be on the list, right between those two in the order. >>
If a 6 ft 2 in 200 lb sixty year old guy is abusing a boy, and there are two others in the room.
One guy is 26 years old. He stands at 6'2 and weighs 195. The other guy is 72 years old, and stands 5'9 and weighs 170,
who is "more responsible" to protect the boy ?
Advantage McQueary
If a school president knows of child abuse on campus, and a school football coach is trained to tell the school president of
any abuses in his program, who is responsible for the protection of the child ?
Advantage school president
If a college coach is trained to report any wrongdoings to the school president, and he does exactly as he is
trained to do, who has done the right thing ?
Advantage Jopa
<< <i>
I can understand you being upset about some of the hyperbole. But for me, only one fact matters regarding Paterno - he had reason to believe one of his assistants MIGHT BE acting inappropriately with young boys, and he washed his hands of it after kicking it up the food chain. >>
Washed his hands of it ??? This is just a flat out lie. Jopa did what he was supposed to do. He reported it to the property
authority. In no way did he "wash his hands of it". What BS. He for crying out loud reported it to someone who could fire
the creep, or contact the police.
Jopa does not call the police about his players or coaches. That is not in his job description, nor is it his responsibility.
It is the school presidents job to do this. Please go and read college regulations about these matters.
<< <i>
<< <i>
EF, I'm not defending or accusing anyone until I have all the facts, but I fail to see how McQueary and the president can both be more responsible than Paterno. Depending on how you view it, the responsibility either increases as the authority increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than McQueary), or the responsibility increases as the "closeness" to Sandusky and the incident increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than the president). Regardless of the view, if McQueary and the president are on the list, then Paterno has to be on the list, right between those two in the order. >>
If a 6 ft 2 in 200 lb sixty year old guy is abusing a boy, and there are two others in the room.
One guy is 26 years old. He stands at 6'2 and weighs 195. The other guy is 72 years old, and stands 5'9 and weighs 170,
who is "more responsible" to protect the boy ?
Advantage McQueary
If a school president knows of child abuse on campus, and a school football coach is trained to tell the school president of
any abuses in his program, who is responsible for the protection of the child ?
Advantage school president
If a college coach is trained to report any wrongdoings to the school president, and he does exactly as he is
trained to do, who has done the right thing ?
Advantage Jopa >>
How about a hypothetical? A journalist walks into the shower instead of McQueary. He's trained to report on the story as a dispassionate observer. Is it OK for him to simply report what he saw and take no further action?
Now, same hypothetical except this time the journalist gets wind of the abuse second hand. Does he have any obligation to intervene beyond what his training tells him to do?
Bottom line is that everyone seems to have done just enough, yet boys were still being abused when it could have been prevented if ANY of them had come out from behind the shield of what they were required to do.
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<< <i>
Bottom line is that everyone seems to have done just enough, yet boys were still being abused when it could have been prevented if ANY of them had come out from behind the shield of what they were required to do. >>
No, here's the bottom line. These kids would have never been abused if Sandusky wasn't an idiot. These kids would
have never been abused if these kids parents weren't idiots.
The responsibility of raising your children belongs to you and me. If I'm stupid enough to put my young child in the care
of a total stranger, then shame on me. If I'm too interested in my crack cocaine lifestyle, and screwing every momma in the hood
while my kid walks the street until 1 am in the morning, then shame on me.
This perkdog, "What if this was your child" BS is a joke. Who in their right mind would let their 10 year old
child spend the night with Micheal Jackson, or let them spend their life with a total stranger like Sandusky ?
Obviously these parents don't give a rats a## about their kids.
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<< <i>
EF, I'm not defending or accusing anyone until I have all the facts, but I fail to see how McQueary and the president can both be more responsible than Paterno. Depending on how you view it, the responsibility either increases as the authority increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than McQueary), or the responsibility increases as the "closeness" to Sandusky and the incident increases (in which case Paterno would be more responsible than the president). Regardless of the view, if McQueary and the president are on the list, then Paterno has to be on the list, right between those two in the order. >>
If a 6 ft 2 in 200 lb sixty year old guy is abusing a boy, and there are two others in the room.
One guy is 26 years old. He stands at 6'2 and weighs 195. The other guy is 72 years old, and stands 5'9 and weighs 170,
who is "more responsible" to protect the boy ?
Advantage McQueary
If a school president knows of child abuse on campus, and a school football coach is trained to tell the school president of
any abuses in his program, who is responsible for the protection of the child ?
Advantage school president
If a college coach is trained to report any wrongdoings to the school president, and he does exactly as he is
trained to do, who has done the right thing ?
Advantage Jopa >>
Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought in an earlier post you said:
"I agree with detroitfan2 and the FBI agent.
I would like to believe that I would go and intervene if I ever saw a well respected person in my community committing such an action, but I can't say for sure, because my brain has never been in that situation. I would love to think I'd do the right thing, however, I have to give McQueary some slack only because I never experienced it myself."
That must have been another edmundfitzgerald with a royal flush avatar.
In any case, it sounds like what you're saying is that if McQueary pounds the naked 72 year old into submission in the locker room, no boy is every abused again by Sandusky again. Maybe that's a good point, I need to think about how it would have played out differently.
But if you're going to tell me from that day forward McQueary was somehow more responsible than Paterno yet Paterno was less responsible than the president, than I don't know what to say.
<< <i>
How about a hypothetical? A journalist walks into the shower instead of McQueary. He's trained to report on the story as a dispassionate observer. Is it OK for him to simply report what he saw and take no further action?
Now, same hypothetical except this time the journalist gets wind of the abuse second hand. Does he have any obligation to intervene beyond what his training tells him to do?
Bottom line is that everyone seems to have done just enough, yet boys were still being abused when it could have been prevented if ANY of them had come out from behind the shield of what they were required to do. >>
Yes, it's ok for him to report what he saw. It would be commendable if he did more. But he should not be thrown under the bus
if he reported it to the proper authority. Again, it would be "commendable".
If the journalist found out second hand about the abuse, then the journalist should follow whatever his training leads him to do.
I'm sure his training would teach him to either call the proper authority, or ask the head of the paper to run a story about it.
Bottom line is that when the kids were getting abused, it was the school presidents job to contact the police. Once that
is done, it's the police's job to investigate the matter. That is the end of discussion. There is really no other angle on this.
If the school president followed up on his responsibility, and the local police pursued this matter with the parents of these kids,
then Sandusky would be behind bars already.
Again, Jopa did everything he was supposed to do legally. He did the right thing. What else do you expect a 72 year
old frail guy to do other then report this crime ? Is he the police ? No, he isn't. Is he the school president?? No, he isn't.
Is he the football coach ??? Yes, he is. Did he report an incident to the proper authority ?? Yes, he did.
<< <i>
I would like to believe that I would go and intervene if I ever saw a well respected person in my community committing such an action, but I can't say for sure, because my brain has never been in that situation. I would love to think I'd do the right thing, however, I have to give McQueary some slack only because I never experienced it myself."
. >>
Yes, I believe that McQueary and Paterno followed the proper channels if they reported it to the proper authorities.
But if I were McQueary, and I honestly saw a guy sexually assualting a child in the shower, I would love to think with his size, I
would physically intervene if necessary. Jopa could not physically intervene.
Then again, I believe that McQueary and Jopa followed the right procedures if they did report the abuse.
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<< <i>
Good because Franco Harris is an idiot, once again if it was HIS child his tune would be different. >>
Well, then you're an idiot in Franco's eyes, and hundreds of thousands of others.
But seriously, you're not an idiot, your just someone who sees this differently.
Jopa in no way deserves the harsh treatment he is getting.
Sandusky ? Yes
The president of Penn State ? Yes
The police (who were contacted) ? Yes
Jopa did his job. He reported it to the property authority.
And by the way, it would never be Franco's child. (You keep using that dumb line). These children were neglected by their fathers and or mothers. Their parents wanted nothing to do with them. That's why they gave them to Sandusky. If these kids parents cared in the least
bit about them, then they would never have been abused by this creep. >>
Dumb line because its a valid point that you refuse to see? Im not so sure whats so hard about that for you to understand- let me explain to you so you can fully understand, these yahoos who defend Paterno WOULD NOT BE DEFENDING HIM IF IT WERE THEIR CHILD.
Keep believing in Paterno, keep living in a dream world, keep thinking its ok to report something half assed and look the other way while the problem is not solved.
Bottom line Paterno should have put a stop to allowing Sandusky to be the pied piper with the trail of children following him around his althetic facilities. You dont get it and you wont so carry on and while your at it build a godam shrine in your house of Joe Paterno and drink the kool Aid along with all these other morons that fail to see that Paterno was an enabler for this activity.
Make your come back and get the last word in because Im done with this thread and done listening to every godam idiot here that defends Paterno.
Last word - Please continue to protect your children and be a good parent that Im sure you are and hope they never are in a situation where a guy like Sandusky is allowed to operate for YEARS under a guy like Paterno..
That was Paterno's house, and he knew that Sandusky did those acts, and yet Sandusky was still bringing kids all over Penn state for years to come. Paterno simply turned his cheek.
A great man would have gone to the ends of the earth to ensure that scum like that would not be around his program with kids...or even without them.
Paterno is not being treated harshly...just that we recognize now that he isn't quite as deserving of the accolades he has been givein the past...such as being the proprietor of a large football program, having your name on a championship trophy, and having a statue on campus. Those rights are deserved for high level people with great integrity, who settle for nothing but excellence and due dilligence....all qualities he did not show in something horrible happening right in his backyard.
Edmund, as for Perkdog's "if it were your kid" example, yes morons like Franco Harris(or yourself) would indeed be singing different tunes. Outstanding parents in the world have had kids who have been preyd on by child predators...so your blaming the parents is wrong.
There was a guy who could have put a stop to it...and if he were a great man...Sandusky would never have been allowed to step foot on his campus after the 1998 incident or the 2002 one....but he put the program ahead of the kids.
Paterno is gettin his just reevalation of his character.
Here's something you will never get.
It's not Jopa's job to protect your child. It's your job.
If something bad ever happens to your child, do me a favor, don't blame Jopa. Blame yourself.
If your kid ever gets raped by a hockey coach because you were dumb enough to let your 9 year old spend the night
in a hotel during a hockey tournament, then don't blame the coach, blame yourself.
If your 11 year old ever gets raped by a boy scout counselor during a weekend trip, then don't blame the counselor,
blame yourself for being a dumb a** dad.
Take responsibility for yourself and your kids, because it's an evil world out there.
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I can understand you being upset about some of the hyperbole. But for me, only one fact matters regarding Paterno - he had reason to believe one of his assistants MIGHT BE acting inappropriately with young boys, and he washed his hands of it after kicking it up the food chain. >>
Washed his hands of it ??? This is just a flat out lie. Jopa did what he was supposed to do. He reported it to the property
authority. In no way did he "wash his hands of it". What BS. He for crying out loud reported it to someone who could fire
the creep, or contact the police.
Jopa does not call the police about his players or coaches. That is not in his job description, nor is it his responsibility.
It is the school presidents job to do this. Please go and read college regulations about these matters. >>
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<< <i>Paterno is NOT a great man. He is not deserving of being immortalized. Great men would not have let a child rapist continue to run rampant on his campus.
That was Paterno's house, and he knew that Sandusky did those acts, and yet Sandusky was still bringing kids all over Penn state for years to come. Paterno simply turned his cheek.
. >>
OMG. Paterno reported this guy to the police for the umpteenth time.
Let me ask you this. Let's say you see a 50 year old guy and 11 year old showering in the locker room at your school, and
you report them to the school administrator, who reports them to the police, and there is a case opened up, and afterwards the 50 year old is allowed to return to your school.
What would you think ??? Perhaps that the police and parents handled the matter ??? Perhaps that this guy is legally allowed
to continue his life at the school ??? Obviously the 50 year old did not go to jail. Obviously the 50 year old did not get a guilty
verdict or he would be serving time for sexually misconduct with a minor, which in Pennsylvania carriers a jail sentence.
What would you think ???
<< <i>I personally could give a rats a** about Paterno and Penn State.
Here's something you will never get.
It's not Jopa's job to protect your child. It's your job.
If something bad ever happens to your child, do me a favor, don't blame Jopa. Blame yourself.
If your kid ever gets raped by a hockey coach because you were dumb enough to let your 9 year old spend the night
in a hotel during a hockey tournament, then don't blame the coach, blame yourself.
If your 11 year old ever gets raped by a boy scout counselor during a weekend trip, then don't blame the counselor,
blame yourself for being a dumb a** dad.
Take responsibility for yourself and your kids, because it's an evil world out there. >>
Or, if the hockey league director who knows that the coach who is molesting your child has done that already...he has a few simple steps to stop it.
Or, if the boy scout directors who knows that the counselor is a child rapist and he says nothing while his counselor continues to operate under his nose...any decent person would ensure that the counselor wouldn't be allowed in or around his program.
No it isn't Paterno's job to protect your child...only a great man would have done something to halt the bad stuff going on in his yard. A great man! Obviously, a great man Penn state was lacking. Good thing they recognized a coward...and made some steps to fix their inaccurate perception they had of him previous to this stuff going on under his nose.
Sandusky, SteveK, and Edmundfitzgerald...their defenses are all the same....RIDICULOUS!
I'm not defending or accusing anyone until I have all the facts
My response:
You have been accusing me of something for the past 6 months without knowing the facts.
SteveK and edmundfitzgerald have only accused me of things in this thread. They're just novice accusers.
It seems like it is time to just brush SteveK and Edmundfitzgerald off.
Based on the ridiculousness of Sandusky's, Stevek's, and Edmunfitzgerald's words of defense...they are all very similar. Not good company to be in, yikes.
<< <i>Who is SteveK? >>
LOL...probably a goner by now.
I wonder how those guys like Franco Harris, Stevek, and Edmundfitzgerald feel when their hear Sandusky's reasoning for taking part in naked horse play with 10 year old boys in the shower? Do they see the ridiculousness in that?
I hope they see it...because that is how all the non bias intelligent people feel toward their attempts at defending Paterno and thinking he should still be classified as some great iconic man who epitomizes high character levels.
<< <i>
Or, if the hockey league director who knows that the coach who is molesting your child has done that already...he has a few simple steps to stop it.
Or, if the boy scout directors who knows that the counselor is a child rapist and he says nothing while his counselor continues to operate under his nose...any decent person would ensure that the counselor wouldn't be allowed in or around his program.
! >>
You are totally clueless. The scout director did report to the counselor that there was a child rapist. The child rapist
was dealt with by the police. The child rapist was let free by the investigators. The scout director did what he
was supposed to do.
Do you understand that Jopa reported this guy, and this guy was let go by the police investigation ?
Please answer me if you understand this simple fact.
For those of you who still don't get it
In the end, no prosecution was undertaken. The child welfare agency did not take action. And, according to prosecutors, the commander of the university’s campus police force told his detective, Ronald Schreffler, to close the case.
“Sandusky admitted showering naked with Victim 6, admitted to hugging Victim 6 while in the shower and admitted that it was wrong,” said the report issued last weekend by the Pennsylvania attorney general. “Detective Schreffler advised Sandusky not to shower with any child again and Sandusky said that he would not.”
He did not know that this guy was a possible freak like you uniformed posters suggest.
Jopa was informed in 1998 that this guy was cleared to live a normal life.
NO PROSECUTION WAS UNDERTAKEN. THE CASE WAS CLOSED ! DO YOU STILL NOT GET IT ?
Where does it say what Paterno learned in 1998?
Where does it say that Paterno was informed in 1998 that this guy was cleared to live a normal life?
You are the only person that I am aware of who is saying these things.
The link you just posted doesn't even mention the name Paterno in it!