<< <i>I wonder how those guys like Franco Harris, Stevek, and Edmundfitzgerald feel when their hear Sandusky's reasoning for taking part in naked horse play with 10 year old boys in the shower? Do they see the ridiculousness in that?
I hope they see it...because that is how all the non bias intelligent people feel toward their attempts at defending Paterno and thinking he should still be classified as some great iconic man who epitomizes high character levels. >>
Do you guys see the ridiculousness in Sandusky's reasoning for being involved in naked horsplay with 10 year old boys.
It is quite evident that Franco Harris, SteveK, and Edmunfitzgerald are not wise enough to recognize what a great man is, and it is doubtful if they are capable of being in any position of authority or partake in any meaningful role of responsibility. They are lacking. That is why Franco Harris was let go of his gig.
Edmundfitzgerald, would you be confident enough to show your words and thoughts in this thread to a prospective employer for a high level job opportunity?
<< <i>detroitfan2 said: I'm not defending or accusing anyone until I have all the facts
My response: You have been accusing me of something for the past 6 months without knowing the facts.
SteveK and edmundfitzgerald have only accused me of things in this thread. They're just novice accusers. >>
I meant that I am not accusing or defending anyone in the Penn State case (outside of Sandusky) without having the facts.
With you, I have some facts, and they are as follows:
(1) Of all the possible pictures of yourself that exist, you chose to introduce yourself to these boards by posting a picture of yourself in the middle of an abortion protest holding a sign that says "free beer". Perhaps that doesn't make you pro-abortion, but I know what it does make you, and I can't use the words on these boards.
(2) You called Mike Flanagan a coward for commiting suicide. Just a flat out coward, without having one detail about the circumstances of his life.
(3) You called out many people in the PSU case cowards for not standing up for the rights of the abused children.
So just to be clear, I'd be willing to bet that you are pro-abortion, since you refuse to deny it (despite the false claim that you addressed this in a PM to me). I told you in a PM that I would apologize profusely if it wasn't true, and still you never denied it.
That being said, I honestly don't care whether you're pro-abortion or not, there are probably many people on these boards who are that I get along with. That has never been my beef with you. What I do have a problem with, however, is hypocrisy, and I struggle to find a bigger hyporcite on these boards than you. You mock the people who stand up for the rights of the unborn, but curse the people who didn't stand up for the rights of the children in the PSU case. You mock the people who try to sway people from the ultimate form of cowardice (that being abortion), yet you have the audacity to label Mike Flanagan a coward after he committed suicide.
The final part is just my opinion, but for whatever reason, you also appear to take great satisfaction out of the fact that this whole scandal is happening at an institution that was heretofore known for its integrity and doing things the right way.
Edmundfitzgerald, would you be confident enough to show your words and thoughts in this thread to a prospective employer for a high level job opportunity? >>
I would like you to answer my questions about Jopa first. How he saw the police investigation that was closed without any charges against Sandusky, and therefore was compelled by law to allow this guy to live a normal life.
But to answer your question (even though you don't answer mine), I work with kids 24/7. My life is working with children and adults who take care of children. I've seen children lie, and I've seen adults lie. I trust no one. It's my job to trust no one. I don't trust you, or anyone who agrees with me on this board. I live by the facts, and if you can't prove to me any facts, then in my book everyone will lie when the sh*t hits the fan. I've seen innocent lives ruined by children who lie. Personally saw a guy lose his marriage and job over a kid who ten years later admitted it never happened. The kid hated this adult, made up a story, and the people in charge bought the story even though there were no facts. Someday I hope you don't have to lose your job over a lie that came your way.
But go ahead and bash the heck out of Paterno. I hope you're enjoying yourself attacking a guy who allowed an aquitted man to hang around his campus. Sandusky was a free man. The charges were dropped. You don't seem to get that, nor do you wish to respond to it.
<<<The final part is just my opinion, but for whatever reason, you also appear to take great satisfaction out of the fact that this whole scandal is happening at an institution that was heretofore known for its integrity and doing things the right way.>>>
I think this is perhaps the main reason why this is such a gigantic story. Don't get me wrong, it would be a huge story if it were at some other school, but prior to this there was no more decorated and respected person in college athletics than Joe Paterno (with Coach K right on his heels). If this happened with a coach that had been at a school for 10 years, the media wouldn't have nearly as much fun tearing down the head coach and the program.
You have already concluded that Sandusky is guilty...and can presumably see through the ridiculousness of his rationale, and it is only a few more steps in sophistication to see the faults of Paterno as well as him being implicit in the cover up.
Do you see the ridiculousness in Sandusky's reasoning for giving naked bear hugs to 10 year old boys in the shower?
I presume your answer is yes...at least I hope so.
What we see in regard to Paterno is this:
1998 Sandusky molested children
1999 He was told by Paterno that he would not be the next head coach.
A)No matter how they are going to spin this and say it...it is obvious that Paterno, the man who runs the whole program, knew of this child molesting by Sandusky in 1998. It isn't just coincidence that Sandusky would not be the next head coach. It is evident that Paterno is is implicit in some sort of cover up.
B)It is obvious that Paterno has great power at that university if he, the current coach, is allowed to decide if somebody else would not be the next coach!!!
2002 Sandusky rapes a 10 year old in the shower. Paterno knows. That is strike two against Sandusky right under Paterno's nose. Sandusky continues to have an office in the building, and continues to have free reign at the football facilities with children at his side.
Knowing that Paterno wields great power at the school, and has the final decisions on football related topics, it is remarkable that Paterno did NOT wield that great power to ensure that Sandusky had no office at the facility, or had the ability to even step foot on the premises...let alone with children at his side!
For those that can see through the Sandusky ridiculous defense, it is only a couple of more steps in sophistication to see the faults of Paterno, and why he was let go, and why he should no longer be considered anything more than just a typical person and college coach. Great man? No freakin way! Great leader? No way!
A great man and leader worthy of a statue would have ensured that nothing remotely close to that would have festered at that campus, and he certainly had the power to do A LOT about it.
I'm glad that some here are so smart, they know everything. I am not as intelligent as some of you. Therefore, I'll wait until all the facts are laid out and then I will make my desicion.
How many time has the media been incorrect at the beginning of a story?
Do we know the entire story yet?
I have a feeling that in two years JoePa will be as loved and revered as he should be!
<< <i>I'm glad that some here are so smart, they know everything. I am not as intelligent as some of you. Therefore, I'll wait until all the facts are laid out and then I will make my desicion.
How many time has the media been incorrect at the beginning of a story?
Do we know the entire story yet?
I have a feeling that in two years JoePa will be as loved and revered as he should be! >>
I'm sure you feel the same way about Sandusky then
You can love him and revere him all you want. He is just an average man like most others. His character is not superior to the average man, nor is his leadership capabilities. Love him all you want. His actions were not that of a man that deserves to be revered. He did what the average man would probably have done...so he should be treated as such.
The police have been very clear thus far that no one reported the 2002 rape to them. So please stop indicating that Paterno reported the 2002 allegations to police. Thus far there is no evidence whatsoever that he did this. Reporting something, though it is very unclear what Paterno reported of the McQueary conversation, to the administrator in charge of the campus police is not and will never be the same as reporting the incident to police. Folks can try and spin that however they want but the facts are very clear that Paterno failed to report an incident of suspected child abuse to the police. He may have believed that the administrators he told would report what they were told to the police but that does not absolve him. The other guy should have done it defense is not really something a "great" man should be leaning on.
It is hard to believe that Paterno was unaware of the 1998 child sexual assault case against Sandusky. However Sandusky was not prosecuted and Paterno could have inferred that this meant he was innocent of any wrong doing. However learning of a second such incident should have set alarm bells ringing. All the children abused after 2002 certainly would have wished it had.
Folks can certainly blame others for not acting or for putting their children into vulnerable positions but that does not absolve Paterno. I've yet to see a single post by those that believe Paterno did nothing morally wrong that explains why the police commissioner indicated that Paterno had a moral lapse by not reporting what he learned directly to the police that doesn't involve the "he told the Penn State administrators" argument.
Those that espouse the innocent until proven guilty, Paterno has commited no crime lines need to recognize that Paterno hasn't been tarnished because folks believe he committed a crime. His legacy is in taters at the moment because he failed to live up to his moral responsibilities. To believe Paterno has no responsibility for acts Sandusky committed after Paterno had enough information to go to the police is naive. While he certainly does not bear the brunt of responsibility he shares some small part of it. That part that he shares is a significant piece of why he was fired, why his name was removed from the Big Ten trophy and why they may remove the statue of him from Penn State.
As more information comes out perhaps we will see Paterno in a different light and re-evaluate our opinions, both for and against. However now that lawyers are involved honest answers are less likely to be forthcoming. Many of the people involved face significant criminal and civil penalties so the truth is very unlikely to be revealed.
Saber, if we are going to try to get the facts straight, let's clarify a couple of your statements:
1. It appears that Sandusky's office was NOT in the football building.
<<<<A person familiar with Sandusky's relationship with Penn State told The Associated Press that the former coach long maintained an office in the East Area Locker building which is across the street from the Penn State football team's building, and was on campus as recently as a week ago working out.>>> Link
2. Paterno did not let him have "free reign" of the facilities after the 2002 event.
<<<<Sandusky was banned from bringing children to the football building after then-graduate assistant Mike McQueary reported seeing Sandusky sexually abusing a 10-year-old in the locker room late one night.>>>> Link
Perhaps it is semantics, and at the end of the day, perhaps it doesn't matter much, but just thought I'd point it out.
Victim #1, listed in the Grand Jury summation, whose mother reported to the school principal, who then reported to the police, who then reported to the DA, who then recused himself and deferred to the Attorney General. It seems the DA's wife has a brother who is an adopted son of Jerry Sandusky.
Putting football first ahead of child rapists. Now we find out he was like any other corrupt football coach trying to squash discipline against his players.'
Penn state will get the death penalty for at least one year.
<< <i>The police have been very clear thus far that no one reported the 2002 rape to them. >>
That is NOT what the police have been saying. The police have said they "have no record of anyone filing a report". That's NOT the same thing as someone coming in and talking to the police. At no time have the police denied that someone came to see them about the 2002 case - just that no one filed a report. BIG difference.
My girlfriend had a stalker, guy she met for lunch one time and she didn't like him. Long story short, after he "showed up" a few times to try to see her, she went to the police and gave a sworn statement. They said there was nothing they could do about it but if it happened again he would be in trouble. He was reported a few weeks later sneaking around her house and we thought he would be in trouble. Police are now saying NO RECORD of her ever reporting his earlier behavior. So now it's "next time again".
The police have a lot of problems in their house, just like Penn State!?!?
I hope the facts all come out, and anyone who ignored or covered up this scandal is severely punished. If Sandusky is guilty of all that is being accused, he should be executed.
Joe
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"I knew inappropriate action was taken by Jerry Sandusky with a youngster". But [Joe Paterno] did not inform police and waited several days to meet with his boss, because he "didn't want to interfere with their weekends."
Isn't that great....a weekend for an administrator is more important that sexual abuse....great thinking there Paterno.
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These newly reported emails are going to cause PSU to do anything and everything it can to make this scandal go away. PSU will use every contact, resource and connection it has to reach confidential settlements with the people who were abused by Sandusky. People will be fired as sacrificial lambs. Apologies (with any concession of liability) will be offered and given. Large amounts of money will be paid to the abused people and their attorneys. Organizations will be set up and funded by PSU and its backers to fight sexual abuse. PSU and its supporters will want nothing more than to end this scandal immediately so that everyone can "put this behind them and start healing".
If it is true that PSU decided to not report this to the authorities because Joe Pa preferred not to do so [and caused PSU officials to keep quiet], then his legacy as a revered football coach means nothing and he is rotten to the core.
<< <i>If it is true that PSU decided to not report this to the authorities because Joe Pa preferred not to do so [and caused PSU officials to keep quiet >>
I can't see any adult, let alone a group of them, supporting a decision to keep quiet about child molestation.
Comments
<< <i>I wonder how those guys like Franco Harris, Stevek, and Edmundfitzgerald feel when their hear Sandusky's reasoning for taking part in naked horse play with 10 year old boys in the shower? Do they see the ridiculousness in that?
I hope they see it...because that is how all the non bias intelligent people feel toward their attempts at defending Paterno and thinking he should still be classified as some great iconic man who epitomizes high character levels. >>
Do you guys see the ridiculousness in Sandusky's reasoning for being involved in naked horsplay with 10 year old boys.
It is quite evident that Franco Harris, SteveK, and Edmunfitzgerald are not wise enough to recognize what a great man is, and it is doubtful if they are capable of being in any position of authority or partake in any meaningful role of responsibility. They are lacking. That is why Franco Harris was let go of his gig.
Edmundfitzgerald, would you be confident enough to show your words and thoughts in this thread to a prospective employer for a high level job opportunity?
<< <i>detroitfan2 said:
I'm not defending or accusing anyone until I have all the facts
My response:
You have been accusing me of something for the past 6 months without knowing the facts.
SteveK and edmundfitzgerald have only accused me of things in this thread. They're just novice accusers. >>
I meant that I am not accusing or defending anyone in the Penn State case (outside of Sandusky) without having the facts.
With you, I have some facts, and they are as follows:
(1) Of all the possible pictures of yourself that exist, you chose to introduce yourself to these boards by posting a picture of yourself in the middle of an abortion protest holding a sign that says "free beer". Perhaps that doesn't make you pro-abortion, but I know what it does make you, and I can't use the words on these boards.
(2) You called Mike Flanagan a coward for commiting suicide. Just a flat out coward, without having one detail about the circumstances of his life.
(3) You called out many people in the PSU case cowards for not standing up for the rights of the abused children.
So just to be clear, I'd be willing to bet that you are pro-abortion, since you refuse to deny it (despite the false claim that you addressed this in a PM to me). I told you in a PM that I would apologize profusely if it wasn't true, and still you never denied it.
That being said, I honestly don't care whether you're pro-abortion or not, there are probably many people on these boards who are that I get along with. That has never been my beef with you. What I do have a problem with, however, is hypocrisy, and I struggle to find a bigger hyporcite on these boards than you. You mock the people who stand up for the rights of the unborn, but curse the people who didn't stand up for the rights of the children in the PSU case. You mock the people who try to sway people from the ultimate form of cowardice (that being abortion), yet you have the audacity to label Mike Flanagan a coward after he committed suicide.
The final part is just my opinion, but for whatever reason, you also appear to take great satisfaction out of the fact that this whole scandal is happening at an institution that was heretofore known for its integrity and doing things the right way.
You are way more confused than I ever imagined...
<< <i>
Edmundfitzgerald, would you be confident enough to show your words and thoughts in this thread to a prospective employer for a high level job opportunity? >>
I would like you to answer my questions about Jopa first. How he saw the police investigation that was closed without any
charges against Sandusky, and therefore was compelled by law to allow this guy to live a normal life.
But to answer your question (even though you don't answer mine), I work with kids 24/7. My life is working with children and
adults who take care of children. I've seen children lie, and I've seen adults lie. I trust no one. It's my job to trust no one.
I don't trust you, or anyone who agrees with me on this board. I live by the facts, and if you can't prove to me any facts,
then in my book everyone will lie when the sh*t hits the fan. I've seen innocent lives ruined by children who lie. Personally
saw a guy lose his marriage and job over a kid who ten years later admitted it never happened. The kid hated this adult, made up a story, and the people in charge bought the story even though there were no facts. Someday I hope you
don't have to lose your job over a lie that came your way.
But go ahead and bash the heck out of Paterno. I hope you're enjoying yourself attacking a guy who allowed an aquitted man
to hang around his campus. Sandusky was a free man. The charges were dropped. You don't seem to get that, nor
do you wish to respond to it.
Link to full story
Speaking of Sandusky's wife, Dottie, here is the first article I have been able to find that raises questions about what, if anything, she knew...
Dottie Sandusky
I think this is perhaps the main reason why this is such a gigantic story. Don't get me wrong, it would be a huge story if it were at some other school, but prior to this there was no more decorated and respected person in college athletics than Joe Paterno (with Coach K right on his heels). If this happened with a coach that had been at a school for 10 years, the media wouldn't have nearly as much fun tearing down the head coach and the program.
You have already concluded that Sandusky is guilty...and can presumably see through the ridiculousness of his rationale, and it is only a few more steps in sophistication to see the faults of Paterno as well as him being implicit in the cover up.
Do you see the ridiculousness in Sandusky's reasoning for giving naked bear hugs to 10 year old boys in the shower?
I presume your answer is yes...at least I hope so.
What we see in regard to Paterno is this:
1998 Sandusky molested children
1999 He was told by Paterno that he would not be the next head coach.
A)No matter how they are going to spin this and say it...it is obvious that Paterno, the man who runs the whole program, knew of this child molesting by Sandusky in 1998. It isn't just coincidence that Sandusky would not be the next head coach. It is evident that Paterno is is implicit in some sort of cover up.
B)It is obvious that Paterno has great power at that university if he, the current coach, is allowed to decide if somebody else would not be the next coach!!!
2002 Sandusky rapes a 10 year old in the shower. Paterno knows. That is strike two against Sandusky right under Paterno's nose. Sandusky continues to have an office in the building, and continues to have free reign at the football facilities with children at his side.
Knowing that Paterno wields great power at the school, and has the final decisions on football related topics, it is remarkable that Paterno did NOT wield that great power to ensure that Sandusky had no office at the facility, or had the ability to even step foot on the premises...let alone with children at his side!
For those that can see through the Sandusky ridiculous defense, it is only a couple of more steps in sophistication to see the faults of Paterno, and why he was let go, and why he should no longer be considered anything more than just a typical person and college coach. Great man? No freakin way! Great leader? No way!
A great man and leader worthy of a statue would have ensured that nothing remotely close to that would have festered at that campus, and he certainly had the power to do A LOT about it.
How many time has the media been incorrect at the beginning of a story?
Do we know the entire story yet?
I have a feeling that in two years JoePa will be as loved and revered as he should be!
<< <i>I'm glad that some here are so smart, they know everything. I am not as intelligent as some of you. Therefore, I'll wait until all the facts are laid out and then I will make my desicion.
How many time has the media been incorrect at the beginning of a story?
Do we know the entire story yet?
I have a feeling that in two years JoePa will be as loved and revered as he should be! >>
I'm sure you feel the same way about Sandusky then
You can love him and revere him all you want. He is just an average man like most others. His character is not superior to the average man, nor is his leadership capabilities. Love him all you want. His actions were not that of a man that deserves to be revered. He did what the average man would probably have done...so he should be treated as such.
It is hard to believe that Paterno was unaware of the 1998 child sexual assault case against Sandusky. However Sandusky was not prosecuted and Paterno could have inferred that this meant he was innocent of any wrong doing. However learning of a second such incident should have set alarm bells ringing. All the children abused after 2002 certainly would have wished it had.
Folks can certainly blame others for not acting or for putting their children into vulnerable positions but that does not absolve Paterno. I've yet to see a single post by those that believe Paterno did nothing morally wrong that explains why the police commissioner indicated that Paterno had a moral lapse by not reporting what he learned directly to the police that doesn't involve the "he told the Penn State administrators" argument.
Those that espouse the innocent until proven guilty, Paterno has commited no crime lines need to recognize that Paterno hasn't been tarnished because folks believe he committed a crime. His legacy is in taters at the moment because he failed to live up to his moral responsibilities. To believe Paterno has no responsibility for acts Sandusky committed after Paterno had enough information to go to the police is naive. While he certainly does not bear the brunt of responsibility he shares some small part of it. That part that he shares is a significant piece of why he was fired, why his name was removed from the Big Ten trophy and why they may remove the statue of him from Penn State.
As more information comes out perhaps we will see Paterno in a different light and re-evaluate our opinions, both for and against. However now that lawyers are involved honest answers are less likely to be forthcoming. Many of the people involved face significant criminal and civil penalties so the truth is very unlikely to be revealed.
Cheers,
Robb
1. It appears that Sandusky's office was NOT in the football building.
<<<<A person familiar with Sandusky's relationship with Penn State told The Associated Press that the former coach long maintained an office in the East Area Locker building which is across the street from the Penn State football team's building, and was on campus as recently as a week ago working out.>>> Link
2. Paterno did not let him have "free reign" of the facilities after the 2002 event.
<<<<Sandusky was banned from bringing children to the football building after then-graduate assistant Mike McQueary reported seeing Sandusky sexually abusing a 10-year-old in the locker room late one night.>>>> Link
Perhaps it is semantics, and at the end of the day, perhaps it doesn't matter much, but just thought I'd point it out.
STORY
It seems the DA's wife has a brother who is an adopted son of Jerry Sandusky.
Go figure???????
Putting football first ahead of child rapists. Now we find out he was like any other corrupt football coach trying to squash discipline against his players.'
Penn state will get the death penalty for at least one year.
<< <i>The police have been very clear thus far that no one reported the 2002 rape to them. >>
That is NOT what the police have been saying. The police have said they "have no record of anyone filing a report". That's NOT the same thing as someone coming in and talking to the police. At no time have the police denied that someone came to see them about the 2002 case - just that no one filed a report. BIG difference.
Tabe
My girlfriend had a stalker, guy she met for lunch one time and she didn't like him. Long story short, after he "showed up" a few times to try to see her, she went to the police and gave a sworn statement. They said there was nothing they could do about it but if it happened again he would be in trouble. He was reported a few weeks later sneaking around her house and we thought he would be in trouble. Police are now saying NO RECORD of her ever reporting his earlier behavior. So now it's "next time again".
The police have a lot of problems in their house, just like Penn State!?!?
I hope the facts all come out, and anyone who ignored or covered up this scandal is severely punished. If Sandusky is guilty of all that is being accused, he should be executed.
Joe
Ummm, prehaps NO BAIL this time????
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Ralph
<< <i>Sandusky arrested again today. Nice!
Ummm, prehaps NO BAIL this time???? >>
250K straight bail
1961 Topps FB PSA 8
1970 Topps FB PSA 9
I wonder if he goes to prison to serve hard time he will be placed in the general population.
If so, he may find that instead of being the abuser, he is the abused.
LINK TO STORY
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
If it is true that PSU decided to not report this to the authorities because Joe Pa preferred not to do so [and caused PSU officials to keep quiet], then his legacy as a revered football coach means nothing and he is rotten to the core.
<< <i>If it is true that PSU decided to not report this to the authorities because Joe Pa preferred not to do so [and caused PSU officials to keep quiet >>
I can't see any adult, let alone a group of them, supporting a decision to keep quiet about child molestation.