How naive is it to blindly follow a so called icon?
Robert >>
Now you're being silly...it wasn't Paterno who was in the shower with the kid...if he was, I'd be first in line to bash the living yell out of him...so please stop with the silly remarks. >>
Ok, so you'd be the first to bash him if he was in the shower, yet it's OK that JoPa didn't do ANY SORT of bashing to McCluskey. Gotcha.
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From Paterno's bio. True in every respect but certainly tragically ironic in many. Not mentioned here but I find it humorous that part of his 3.5 mill gift to PSU funds an endowment for the College of Liberal Arts.
"In 1998, he was the initial winner of the Eddie Robinson Coach-of-the-Year Award, which recognizes an active college coach who is a role model to students and players, an active member of the community and an accomplished coach.
The wisdom of Paterno's "total person" approach to football -- which addresses academic and lifestyle matters in addition to athletic prowess -- has won almost universal endorsement from the "products of the system."
"He's putting together this winning program, but meanwhile he's teaching 17-, 18-, 19-year olds how not to screw their lives up, how important education is, how important it is to have social acumen," All-America linebacker Greg Buttle told the San Antonio Express-News in 2007.
"Forget what he's done for players. He's done more for a single university than anyone else. It transcends his coaching. No. 1 to him is what he's done for Penn State University, No. 2 is what he has done for players."
"...I can tell you that virtually all of the players he's touched in 50 years as an assistant and head coach have been enriched by the experience," former quarterback Todd Blackledge said in the forward to Quotable Joe, a book of quotations by and about Paterno. "I consider myself, and I know my teammates and Penn State players past and present feel likewise, a better person for having played for Joe Paterno."
LaVar Arrington, one of the 32 NFL first-round draft choices to come through Paterno's Penn State program, was a two-time All-America selection and won the 1999 Butkus Award as the nation's top linebacker as well as the Maxwell Club's Chuck Bednarik Award, presented to the top collegiate defensive player.
"If you're not a man when you get there, you'll be a man before you leave," Arrington said of his Penn State experience. "Joe has his system so that you're prepared for life. Joe trains you more mentally than physically so that nothing will rattle you."
<< <i>In this case, the "authorities" would be the police not just the AD, especially when he realized absolutely nothing was being done about it. >>
Here's something I really don't understand, and need someone to explain it to me.
How did Jopa "realize" that nothing was being done about it ?? Seriously. I'm clueless. Did someone report it to him that this guy got off scott free ? Is there other evidence ? >>
I'm guessing that the fact that Sandusky was still working out in the PSU weight room as recently as last week would be a strong clue that nothing was done about it. Then again I think it's logical to believe that the police were kept at bay and this was being "handled internally" from jump street. I guess we will have to wait in the days and weeks to come for this to unfold. I believe JoPa will face civil suits. MJ
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I imagine that a US Attorney may be looking at the PSU situation since educational institutions who accept Federal funding are held to certain standards which sometimes trump state law.
In the same regard this would be a reason why none of us know Paterno's political leanings. Can't be too partisan while taking Uncle Sam's cash. The law really restricts it to those closely tied to the funds but most play it safe.
Can anyone say they have seen him endorse a candidate or espouse his beliefs on pertinent social subjects?
You and too many others act as though Joe's life was a vacuum with just this one incident to concern himself with
Your argument is that he was too busy to personally concern himself with something as common as an alleged child abuse case by his friend and former defensive coordinator? It is interesting to see where you would place child abuse on the scale.
It is enlightening to see that those of us who expected Paterno to take a child abuse claim as seriously as it deserved are the ones that don't get it. I hope when it is all said and done we find out he did follow up and was misled or lied to by those he originally informed of the allegations. That is really the only credible explanation for his behavior that would exonerate him and maintain his legacy.
There's no need for a back and forth here and I'm making no attempt at being clever, nor have I, in this thread. I said what I wanted to say. You're a piece of garbage and your idiotic ideas in this thread reinforce that. No one likes you.
<< <i>You and too many others act as though Joe's life was a vacuum with just this one incident to concern himself with
Your argument is that he was too busy to personally concern himself with something as common as an alleged child abuse case by his friend and former defensive coordinator? It is interesting to see where you would place child abuse on the scale.
It is enlightening to see that those of us who expected Paterno to take a child abuse claim as seriously as it deserved are the ones that don't get it. I hope when it is all said and done we find out he did follow up and was misled or lied to by those he originally informed of the allegations. That is really the only credible explanation for his behavior that would exonerate him and maintain his legacy.
Robb >>
Robb - Finally somebody is at least getting the point...you might not agree with it but at least you're getting it. Yes, glory be, yes...he was a busy guy, very, very busy...and to say that Paterno was "too busy to personally concern himself with something as common as an alleged child abuse case by his friend and former defensive coordinator?" shows there some hope for you.
I would be certain that Joe Paterno deplores and despises child abuse as much as all of us here...we can definitely agree on that. Joe took the matter seriously, he prompty reported it to the university administrator whose job it was to do the follow up work. There are legal matters as well as criminal matters that are at play in a case such as this, and the university administrator likely had the legalctraining required to handle this anmd do the follow up...and I would have to believe that with all matters Patermo faced similar to this involving situations i previously mentioned, he also referred them to the universty administrator. i'm sure if Sandusky was still coaching on his staff, Paterno would have handled it differently, no doubt about that.
Well, i've got nothing else to add...i'll chime in again in the thread if there is anything new or interesting. Lee in my opinion is an incorrigible BS artist when it comes to online poker, but sometimes ya gotta listen to your opponents...so maybe i should cut down on the lengthy rhetoric on some topics, so I'll tale Lee's advice here. I just hope Lee responds with some good insults...if not he will do it in another thread at another time - he is irrepressible as you know.
Some are now saying that this McQuery guy was not fired because he has something on Jopa.
Many can't believe that the guy will actually be on the sidelines this weekend. Well, some are saying the university needs more time to sort this thing out. Apparently the university is thinking this right now, " How can we take care of McQuery, because if we don't, he'll spill beans that will take down a living legend."
I actually feel much the same way you do; that Joe Paterno is only being used as a scapegoat while not NEARLY enough attention is being made to the ones truly responsible. And I do know what it's like to be a scapegoat as well as an abuse victim (all kinds; though the sexual abuse is from when I was a baby). And I do think it's grossly unfair that Joe's legacy and rep are now up in flames just because he didn't handle one incident from almost 10 years ago perfectly.
HOWEVER...
You may want to consider that Joe being fired is actually best...for even Joe. How do you figure you might ask? He only had three games plus a bowl game; what's the difference? Here's what the difference would be. As you know, Penn State is in 12th place in the rankings and thus an outside contender for a major bowl. And to get there the coach must be really focused and on his A-game. Given what has now happened and how all messed up Joe must be inside, do you really think he could now put his heart into coaching football? And that's not all. This coming game was the Senior Day, and had Joe been allowed to say, it would've been a real distraction for the players who dreamed of playing for Penn State or other major school since they were little. Not to mention the hell that would no doubt break loose at road games. In ANY sort of situation where it's not possible for the coach to do the job properly (no matter what if anything he did wrong), it's time for him to go. And now the players will be able to stay focused on the rest of the season and mostly not face as many distractions.
So perhaps Joe being fired now was the only way. I would've liked to have seen him finish out the season and retire gracefully too but now I believe there is no way that could've been possible.
<< <i> I believe JoPa will face civil suits. MJ >>
Jopa's son is a lawyer, and he must have cringed when his dad said, "I could have done more". >>
No doubt. MJ
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As I read the grand jury transcripts I find the graduate assistant's actions in relation to Victim #2 to be self serving. Anyone with any common sense that witnessed a ten year old being raped in a shower would call the police immediately, some would even try to stop the act in progress and hold the offender for the police. My take on it is the graduate assistant didn't go directly to the police because he was worried if he did he would lose his spot on the coaching staff.
<< <i>As I read the grand jury transcripts I find the graduate assistant's actions in relation to Victim #2 to be self serving. Anyone with any common sense that witnessed a ten year old being raped in a shower would call the police immediately, some would even try to stop the act in progress and hold the offender for the police. My take on it is the graduate assistant didn't go directly to the police because he was worried if he did he would lose his spot on the coaching staff. >>
Agreed, that's the most troubling aspect for me. It could be that this GA just wasn't ready to man up, or it could be indicative of an entire culture there in which "knowing one's place" is key to survival.
Incidentally, to thos clamoring for the GA (now asst coach) to be fired, I suspect that has a lot to do with some sort of "whistleblower" rules. Firing a key witness at this point would probably NOT be a good move in the eyes of those prosecuting this.
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<< <i>As I read the grand jury transcripts I find the graduate assistant's actions in relation to Victim #2 to be self serving. Anyone with any common sense that witnessed a ten year old being raped in a shower would call the police immediately, some would even try to stop the act in progress and hold the offender for the police. My take on it is the graduate assistant didn't go directly to the police because he was worried if he did he would lose his spot on the coaching staff. >>
In that testimony McQuery stated that both Sandusky and the boy being raped saw him witnessing the brutal act. I'm sure that little boy thought , "thank God now someone will help me". That help never came! It didn't come from McQuery or JoPa or Curley or Spanier. This thing was buried. That boy was tortured in 2002 as well as the past 9 years. No one came to help him. Sweep him under the rug yes, help no.
I doubt that Sandusky feared anything when McQuery witnessed him. It's possible he knew it would be handled internally. He seems to have a PSU hall pass and several get out of jail free cards.
MJ
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First off, there's no way Paterno could have been allowed to finish the season. As soon as this stuff came out I knew that wouldn't happen whether he was fired or not. For starters he wouldn't have been safe- there are still a lot of hot tempers out there-and coaching from the press box isn't his style anyway. It seems the resident Joe P apologist keeps trying to deflect responsibility from him. A guy wielding the kind of power Paterno had could have pressed the issue to get to the bottom of it, but he chose not to. "Wah- it wasn't his job- Wah". No, it isn't his JOB...as head coach it is his DUTY to pursue this-first off, his MORAL duty, to make sure that kids aren't being violated... and also his duty to the school and the program- to step up and a)keep this predator from harming anyone else and b) keep this from besmirching the program he supposedly loved so much, along with the school's reputation.
This wasn't a case of "I could have done MORE"...it was a case of "I should have done SOMETHING". Passing the buck to the AD wasn't "doing something". And it appears the board of trustees agrees. This has nothing to do with politics, hating him, or anything of the kind. It's about doing what's RIGHT. And he dropped the ball.
Now, all that said, I want to start hearing less media coverage of "Saint Joseph" and more about what's being done to make sure that scumbag Sandusky never sees the light of day again.
When that new head coach (who has been on the staff since 1979 and who should be removed from the team on paid leave in my opinion) was asked: "Will there be any more football games after this Saturday?"
His response was: "That's something the administration has to decide."
Is it possible that Penn State is thinking about shutting down the season? I think it's completely reasonable and should be considered. And if yes, why play this Saturday? (please edmundfitz, don't start in again...I know how you feel...looking for input from others)
My take on it is the graduate assistant didn't go directly to the police because he was worried if he did he would lose his spot on the coaching staff.
The 'graduate assistant' was a former Penn St. QB and just as entrenched into the University as everybody else. His whole life and legacy were tied to PSU football. Why the media never mentions that he was a former QB (who led them to a 9-3 season and a bowl win) is beyond me, because that certainly paints a more revealing picture than the green GA they are making him out to be. Everybody acted in what they thought were in the best interests of the University, which is what has been ingrained in their moral code since they first stepped on campus. Hence the cover-up and nobody stepping forward, including players on the team that heard the rumors (and they did). It wasn't just about keeping their jobs, it was about protecting the university and the program. By all accounts McQueary is a straightforward guy respected by the players for his honesty. When word got out around the team about what he saw everybody knew it had to be the truth and that's why they started distancing themselves (to a man) from Sandusky.
To some degree you can understand the desire to protect the university, but this isn't a case where they're covering up a bag of coke or a DWI. He was seen raping a kid, which is one step below murder in my (and many others') eyes. So if McQueary went to Paterno and told him he saw Sandusky murder a child, does Paterno take the same course of action (reporting it to the AD and forgetting about it)? Some things have to transcend the need to protect the program, and that's where everybody involved fell short. Something needed to be done to stop the potential for Sandusky to get his hands onto one more kid, and nobody stepped up to make sure that happened. If you were the parent of one of the kids who he molested post-2002 you would be absolutely livid that not only should have Sandusky been jailed (due to eyewitness testimony of him raping a kid), but that people in power at PSU actually took steps to see that no one found out about what McQueary saw. To say Paterno wasn't complicit in this cover up is completely delusional. From all accounts that are familiar with how PSU operates, nothing significant happens regarding his football program without Paterno knowing. Just because he might not have been the mastermind that initiated the cover-up, he was certainly aware of it and did nothing to stop it. Let's put it this way: allegations of inappropriate contact with an underage kid came out about Sandusky in 1998. The next year he was forced to retire; that can't be a coincidence considering he was to be the heir apparent to Paterno and was only 55 years old. Nobody retires in that position unless they're forced to. So when McQueary tells Paterno what he saw shouldn't bells have gone off? These guys were doing all they could to not let this get out and ruin the university, Paterno included. What they failed to realize (or maybe they did and didn't care) is that the damage that PSU will endure is not even 1/100,000th of the damage that was done to the children who were molested after 2002 when it should've been stopped.
<< <i>When that new head coach (who has been on the staff since 1979 and who should be removed from the team on paid leave in my opinion) was asked: "Will there be any more football games after this Saturday?"
His response was: "That's something the administration has to decide."
Is it possible that Penn State is thinking about shutting down the season? I think it's completely reasonable and should be considered. And if yes, why play this Saturday? (please edmundfitz, don't start in again...I know how you feel...looking for input from others) >>
Seniors day - last home game. No way the Seniors deserve what this has done to their legacy/memories.
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<< <i> From all accounts that are familiar with how PSU operates, nothing significant happens regarding his football program without Paterno knowing. Lee >>
From all accounts that I've read, college football coaches spend 18 hour days dissecting film, recruiting, and everything related to football. They also gets hundreds of letters, emails, and other notices about their players mistreating girls at parties, and other violations. They are so busy with the football side of the program, that they have hired people that can take care of these other issues.
I read Tom Osborne's book about his dealing with Lawrence Phillips, a guy who played in the NFL and is now in jail. Tom Osborne said that all he mentioned to Lawrence was that he needed some spiritual guidance in his life. Everything else was handled by school counselors, and those trained in dealing with him. They even gave an assistant coach the responsibility of looking after LP 24/7.
Thank you for posting. Nice piece. John Surma (president of US Steel and vice chair of trustee's) was the first PSU administrator that has shown any backbone all week. He was impressive in an awfully tight spot. MJ
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<< <i> From all accounts that are familiar with how PSU operates, nothing significant happens regarding his football program without Paterno knowing. Lee >>
From all accounts that I've read, college football coaches spend 18 hour days dissecting film, recruiting, and everything related to football. They also gets hundreds of letters, emails, and other notices about their players mistreating girls at parties, and other violations. They are so busy with the football side of the program, that they have hired people that can take care of these other issues.
I read Tom Osborne's book about his dealing with Lawrence Phillips, a guy who played in the NFL and is now in jail. Tom Osborne said that all he mentioned to Lawrence was that he needed some spiritual guidance in his life. Everything else was handled by school counselors, and those trained in dealing with him. They even gave an assistant coach the responsibility of looking after LP 24/7. >>
This wasn't an allegation about a player. This was an allegation about his right-hand man.
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I actually feel much the same way you do; that Joe Paterno is only being used as a scapegoat while not NEARLY enough attention is being made to the ones truly responsible. And I do know what it's like to be a scapegoat as well as an abuse victim (all kinds; though the sexual abuse is from when I was a baby). And I do think it's grossly unfair that Joe's legacy and rep are now up in flames just because he didn't handle one incident from almost 10 years ago perfectly.
HOWEVER...
You may want to consider that Joe being fired is actually best...for even Joe. How do you figure you might ask? He only had three games plus a bowl game; what's the difference? Here's what the difference would be. As you know, Penn State is in 12th place in the rankings and thus an outside contender for a major bowl. And to get there the coach must be really focused and on his A-game. Given what has now happened and how all messed up Joe must be inside, do you really think he could now put his heart into coaching football? And that's not all. This coming game was the Senior Day, and had Joe been allowed to say, it would've been a real distraction for the players who dreamed of playing for Penn State or other major school since they were little. Not to mention the hell that would no doubt break loose at road games. In ANY sort of situation where it's not possible for the coach to do the job properly (no matter what if anything he did wrong), it's time for him to go. And now the players will be able to stay focused on the rest of the season and mostly not face as many distractions.
So perhaps Joe being fired now was the only way. I would've liked to have seen him finish out the season and retire gracefully too but now I believe there is no way that could've been possible. >>
Sorry to hear about your terrible experience and I hope you have recovered from it as best as possible. I guess I've been fortunate, nothing like that or even close to that ever happened to me...and sometimes I guess I don't appreciate the things I should appreciate. Stories such as this I think force us to reflect on our own lives a bit more.
Yes, I agreed with the Board's decision at this point. As much as I hate to say this, I was of course surprised, but actually felt a bit relieved when Joe was let go...simply because no matter how much Joe meant to the school and no matter how much he has done to help so many students over many years, no one person is bigger than the school...and as far as Penn State, that is the most important thing to me.
One thing that has been universal with all my private emails, no one has said or even implied that they would trade Penn State or the Penn State experience for any other school. And I have to believe that almost all college grads probably feel the same way about their school.
So here's to Penn State and long may she be great and prosper...and perhaps this will usher in a new era of football greatness for Penn State, but if not, i'll still be rooting hard every Saturday during the football season just the same. I love my Eagles and Phillies, but no sports team to me will ever top Penn State football.
<< <i>I totally understand that....but I would still bet that there are members of the team that are sickened by all this. >>
No doubt. I have no idea how they can have anything CLOSE to the Seniors day experience they envisioned for the last 4 years.
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<< <i>The fact of the matter remains that if the university president did his job, Paterno would be hailed as a hero, turning in one of his own kind.
The university president or the police dropped the ball. >>
So, if the same assistant witnessed a murder in Paterno's office, and told Paterno about it. THen Paterno in turn told the AD about...and the AD never called the police, then based on Paterno's behavior and your train of thought, we would have to think that Paterno would just go on with his daily life while the dead body continued to lay in his office while it rotted the whole place up? All the while, not worrying about the future problem of a murderer on the loose?
<< <i>The fact of the matter remains that if the university president did his job, Paterno would be hailed as a hero, turning in one of his own kind.
The university president or the police dropped the ball. >>
So, if the same assistant witnessed a murder in Paterno's office, and told Paterno about it. THen Paterno in turn told the AD about...and the AD never called the police, ? >>
I know the law states that any mistreatment of minors in an educational setting must be reported to the principal or chancellor. I actually believe educators are trained NOT TO call the police.
A murder is a different story, and can not be used in this scenario. When the students were being shot and killed in Columbine, it was the duty of the teachers to call the police immediately.
You really can't use that comparison, because of the training that educators get on each type of situation.
As a matter of fact, if a school went into a lockdown mode because of a perpetrator, they are told to sit in a locked room away from the windows until a policeman arrives. They do have rules to follow, even if they don't agree with them. Also, if a guy comes into a school and kills five innocent children, and is about to draw his gun on the rest of the kids in the lunchroom, then a teacher can't run to his truck, take out his pistol, and come in and save those kids by killing the perpetrator without going to jail himself for illegally having a weapon on school grounds. Which would you choose ? Savings the kids and going to jail, or keeping the gun in your truck and letting them die ? I would choose jail, but I'm saying that educators have rules to follow, and Jopa followed the rules here.
I wasn't talking about a lock down, or an emergency situation.
One would have to assume that based on Paterno's actions, he would leave that body in his office and let it create a stench that would never go away. Much like he chose not to worry about the crimes that were committed in his team's sanctuary...even though he knew full well that the guy who committed them was still there.
I think that we cannot stress enough the circumstances surrounding Sandusky's resignation in 1999 when considering whether the university and those in the football program knew about his activities.
As has been said he was the heir apparent to Paterno. In 98 he is accused of fondling a child and admits it to the child's mother while police listen in.
He resigns in 99...and then never coaches again. Not an offer, not a rumor of consideration. Nothing.
He resorts to volunteer coaching at a local school to find his victims and of course through his charity.
The guy was damaged goods. PSU knew it and the rest of the NCAA knew it. No one was willing to take a chance on him.
That I see as very damaging evidence. This guy was a revered coach and no one would touch him. The cat was out of the bag in 98 and people managed the issue rather than putting an end to it.
There were plenty of people who suspected he was a predator and allowed him to run around campus with kids.
I bet this is the first time in a long time that you've clicked Sports Forum instead of kitco.com in a long time. Stay thirsty my friend.
EF >>
Ya, it didn't even know there was a Sports Talk Forum. Wei, baited me over here and stevek's train wreck posts kept my attention. I'm only human.
All the best EF............MJ
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So what ever happened to the guy who actually WITNESSED the act by Sandusky? Is it true they were going to offer him the new head coaching position (I just heard that on the radio)?? How is that guy still allowed to breathe while Paterno is getting choked out? Talk about not doing enough!
<< <i>No. He would call the proper adminstrator to deal with that situation. Just as he did with Sandusky.
If there were a dead body in his football facility, he would of picked up the phone. It's as simple as that. >>
Then after he picked up the phone, and nobody came to deal with the body, what would he do next?
Leave it in there to rot? Call the police himself? Tell the administrators to fix the problem? Or maybe drag it out into the hallway, brush his hands and say there, that is better?
<< <i>So what ever happened to the guy who actually WITNESSED the act by Sandusky? Is it true they were going to offer him the new head coaching position (I just heard that on the radio)?? How is that guy still allowed to breathe while Paterno is getting choked out? Talk about not doing enough! >>
He'll be coaching on the Penn State sidelines this weekend. Many feel that he has dirt on the chancellor and Paterno, and that they won't fire him because they're afraid he'll talk and put a living legend in an even worse light. This is only speculation.
<< <i>No. He would call the proper adminstrator to deal with that situation. Just as he did with Sandusky.
If there were a dead body in his football facility, he would of picked up the phone. It's as simple as that. >>
Then after he picked up the phone, and nobody came to deal with the body, what would he do next?
Leave it in there to rot? Call the police himself? Tell the administrators to fix the problem? Or maybe drag it out into the hallway, brush his hands and say there, that is better?
It is HIS office, much like it was HIS program. >>
You're losing perspective my friend. Of course if there were a dead body, smelling worse and worse by the day, he would pick up the phone again until the problem went away. But the shower scene only happened once according to reports. As you said, if it happened day after day after day after day and Jopa didn't do more, then your story is valid. But for a one time offense, Jopa did the right thing.
Comments
So when my house catches on fire and no one comes to help can I blame it on the Nazis?
<< <i>
<< <i>You can't have it both ways.
How naive is it to blindly follow a so called icon?
Robert >>
Now you're being silly...it wasn't Paterno who was in the shower with the kid...if he was, I'd be first in line to bash the living yell out of him...so please stop with the silly remarks. >>
Ok, so you'd be the first to bash him if he was in the shower, yet it's OK that JoPa didn't do ANY SORT of bashing to McCluskey. Gotcha.
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"In 1998, he was the initial winner of the Eddie Robinson Coach-of-the-Year Award, which recognizes an active college coach who is a role model to students and players, an active member of the community and an accomplished coach.
The wisdom of Paterno's "total person" approach to football -- which addresses academic and lifestyle matters in addition to athletic prowess -- has won almost universal endorsement from the "products of the system."
"He's putting together this winning program, but meanwhile he's teaching 17-, 18-, 19-year olds how not to screw their lives up, how important education is, how important it is to have social acumen," All-America linebacker Greg Buttle told the San Antonio Express-News in 2007.
"Forget what he's done for players. He's done more for a single university than anyone else. It transcends his coaching. No. 1 to him is what he's done for Penn State University, No. 2 is what he has done for players."
"...I can tell you that virtually all of the players he's touched in 50 years as an assistant and head coach have been enriched by the experience," former quarterback Todd Blackledge said in the forward to Quotable Joe, a book of quotations by and about Paterno. "I consider myself, and I know my teammates and Penn State players past and present feel likewise, a better person for having played for Joe Paterno."
LaVar Arrington, one of the 32 NFL first-round draft choices to come through Paterno's Penn State program, was a two-time All-America selection and won the 1999 Butkus Award as the nation's top linebacker as well as the Maxwell Club's Chuck Bednarik Award, presented to the top collegiate defensive player.
"If you're not a man when you get there, you'll be a man before you leave," Arrington said of his Penn State experience. "Joe has his system so that you're prepared for life. Joe trains you more mentally than physically so that nothing will rattle you."
<< <i>
<< <i>In this case, the "authorities" would be the police not just the AD, especially when he realized absolutely nothing was being done about it. >>
Here's something I really don't understand, and need someone to explain it to me.
How did Jopa "realize" that nothing was being done about it ?? Seriously. I'm clueless. Did someone
report it to him that this guy got off scott free ? Is there other evidence ? >>
I'm guessing that the fact that Sandusky was still working out in the PSU weight room as recently as last week would be a strong clue that nothing was done about it. Then again I think it's logical to believe that the police were kept at bay and this was being "handled internally" from jump street. I guess we will have to wait in the days and weeks to come for this to unfold. I believe JoPa will face civil suits. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
In the same regard this would be a reason why none of us know Paterno's political leanings. Can't be too partisan while taking Uncle Sam's cash. The law really restricts it to those closely tied to the funds but most play it safe.
Can anyone say they have seen him endorse a candidate or espouse his beliefs on pertinent social subjects?
Your argument is that he was too busy to personally concern himself with something as common as an alleged child abuse case by his friend and former defensive coordinator? It is interesting to see where you would place child abuse on the scale.
It is enlightening to see that those of us who expected Paterno to take a child abuse claim as seriously as it deserved are the ones that don't get it. I hope when it is all said and done we find out he did follow up and was misled or lied to by those he originally informed of the allegations. That is really the only credible explanation for his behavior that would exonerate him and maintain his legacy.
Robb
There's no need for a back and forth here and I'm making no attempt at being clever, nor have I, in this thread. I said what I wanted to say. You're a piece of garbage and your idiotic ideas in this thread reinforce that. No one likes you.
Terrapins fans have been waiting years for this.
<< <i>You and too many others act as though Joe's life was a vacuum with just this one incident to concern himself with
Your argument is that he was too busy to personally concern himself with something as common as an alleged child abuse case by his friend and former defensive coordinator? It is interesting to see where you would place child abuse on the scale.
It is enlightening to see that those of us who expected Paterno to take a child abuse claim as seriously as it deserved are the ones that don't get it. I hope when it is all said and done we find out he did follow up and was misled or lied to by those he originally informed of the allegations. That is really the only credible explanation for his behavior that would exonerate him and maintain his legacy.
Robb >>
Robb - Finally somebody is at least getting the point...you might not agree with it but at least you're getting it. Yes, glory be, yes...he was a busy guy, very, very busy...and to say that Paterno was "too busy to personally concern himself with something as common as an alleged child abuse case by his friend and former defensive coordinator?" shows there some hope for you.
I would be certain that Joe Paterno deplores and despises child abuse as much as all of us here...we can definitely agree on that. Joe took the matter seriously, he prompty reported it to the university administrator whose job it was to do the follow up work. There are legal matters as well as criminal matters that are at play in a case such as this, and the university administrator likely had the legalctraining required to handle this anmd do the follow up...and I would have to believe that with all matters Patermo faced similar to this involving situations i previously mentioned, he also referred them to the universty administrator. i'm sure if Sandusky was still coaching on his staff, Paterno would have handled it differently, no doubt about that.
Well, i've got nothing else to add...i'll chime in again in the thread if there is anything new or interesting. Lee in my opinion is an incorrigible BS artist when it comes to online poker, but sometimes ya gotta listen to your opponents...so maybe i should cut down on the lengthy rhetoric on some topics, so I'll tale Lee's advice here. I just hope Lee responds with some good insults...if not he will do it in another thread at another time - he is irrepressible as you know.
Carol
It's too imporant not to discuss
Many can't believe that the guy will actually be on the sidelines this weekend. Well, some are saying the university needs more time
to sort this thing out. Apparently the university is thinking this right now, " How can we take care of McQuery, because if we don't, he'll spill beans that will take down a living legend."
Your performance in this thread was simply pathetic.
Making dumb and biased points in sports arguments is one thing...but your credibility is completely in the toilet after this thread.
PS. THank Carol for giving you an out in this thread.
<< <i>Carol - Thank you! >>
Now that is the most hilarious post yet!
I actually feel much the same way you do; that Joe Paterno is only being used as a scapegoat while not NEARLY enough attention is being made to the ones truly responsible. And I do know what it's like to be a scapegoat as well as an abuse victim (all kinds; though the sexual abuse is from when I was a baby). And I do think it's grossly unfair that Joe's legacy and rep are now up in flames just because he didn't handle one incident from almost 10 years ago perfectly.
HOWEVER...
You may want to consider that Joe being fired is actually best...for even Joe. How do you figure you might ask? He only had three games plus a bowl game; what's the difference? Here's what the difference would be. As you know, Penn State is in 12th place in the rankings and thus an outside contender for a major bowl. And to get there the coach must be really focused and on his A-game. Given what has now happened and how all messed up Joe must be inside, do you really think he could now put his heart into coaching football? And that's not all. This coming game was the Senior Day, and had Joe been allowed to say, it would've been a real distraction for the players who dreamed of playing for Penn State or other major school since they were little. Not to mention the hell that would no doubt break loose at road games. In ANY sort of situation where it's not possible for the coach to do the job properly (no matter what if anything he did wrong), it's time for him to go. And now the players will be able to stay focused on the rest of the season and mostly not face as many distractions.
So perhaps Joe being fired now was the only way. I would've liked to have seen him finish out the season and retire gracefully too but now I believe there is no way that could've been possible.
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1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
<< <i> I believe JoPa will face civil suits. MJ >>
Jopa's son is a lawyer, and he must have cringed when his dad said, "I could have done more".
<< <i>
<< <i> I believe JoPa will face civil suits. MJ >>
Jopa's son is a lawyer, and he must have cringed when his dad said, "I could have done more". >>
No doubt. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Anyone with any common sense that witnessed a ten year old being raped in a shower would call the police immediately, some would even try to stop the act in progress and hold the offender for the police.
My take on it is the graduate assistant didn't go directly to the police because he was worried if he did he would lose his spot on the coaching staff.
<< <i>As I read the grand jury transcripts I find the graduate assistant's actions in relation to Victim #2 to be self serving.
Anyone with any common sense that witnessed a ten year old being raped in a shower would call the police immediately, some would even try to stop the act in progress and hold the offender for the police.
My take on it is the graduate assistant didn't go directly to the police because he was worried if he did he would lose his spot on the coaching staff. >>
Agreed, that's the most troubling aspect for me. It could be that this GA just wasn't ready to man up, or it could be indicative of an entire culture there in which "knowing one's place" is key to survival.
Incidentally, to thos clamoring for the GA (now asst coach) to be fired, I suspect that has a lot to do with some sort of "whistleblower" rules. Firing a key witness at this point would probably NOT be a good move in the eyes of those prosecuting this.
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<< <i>As I read the grand jury transcripts I find the graduate assistant's actions in relation to Victim #2 to be self serving.
Anyone with any common sense that witnessed a ten year old being raped in a shower would call the police immediately, some would even try to stop the act in progress and hold the offender for the police.
My take on it is the graduate assistant didn't go directly to the police because he was worried if he did he would lose his spot on the coaching staff. >>
In that testimony McQuery stated that both Sandusky and the boy being raped saw him witnessing the brutal act. I'm sure that little boy thought , "thank God now someone will help me". That help never came! It didn't come from McQuery or JoPa or Curley or Spanier. This thing was buried. That boy was tortured in 2002 as well as the past 9 years. No one came to help him. Sweep him under the rug yes, help no.
I doubt that Sandusky feared anything when McQuery witnessed him. It's possible he knew it would be handled internally. He seems to have a PSU hall pass and several get out of jail free cards.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It seems the resident Joe P apologist keeps trying to deflect responsibility from him. A guy wielding the kind of power Paterno had could have pressed the issue to get to the bottom of it, but he chose not to. "Wah- it wasn't his job- Wah". No, it isn't his JOB...as head coach it is his DUTY to pursue this-first off, his MORAL duty, to make sure that kids aren't being violated... and also his duty to the school and the program- to step up and a)keep this predator from harming anyone else and b) keep this from besmirching the program he supposedly loved so much, along with the school's reputation.
This wasn't a case of "I could have done MORE"...it was a case of "I should have done SOMETHING". Passing the buck to the AD wasn't "doing something". And it appears the board of trustees agrees. This has nothing to do with politics, hating him, or anything of the kind. It's about doing what's RIGHT. And he dropped the ball.
Now, all that said, I want to start hearing less media coverage of "Saint Joseph" and more about what's being done to make sure that scumbag Sandusky never sees the light of day again.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Interesting piece.
Robert
one of his own kind.
The university president or the police dropped the ball.
His response was: "That's something the administration has to decide."
Is it possible that Penn State is thinking about shutting down the season? I think it's completely reasonable and should be considered. And if yes, why play this Saturday? (please edmundfitz, don't start in again...I know how you feel...looking for input from others)
The 'graduate assistant' was a former Penn St. QB and just as entrenched into the University as everybody else. His whole life and legacy were tied to PSU football. Why the media never mentions that he was a former QB (who led them to a 9-3 season and a bowl win) is beyond me, because that certainly paints a more revealing picture than the green GA they are making him out to be. Everybody acted in what they thought were in the best interests of the University, which is what has been ingrained in their moral code since they first stepped on campus. Hence the cover-up and nobody stepping forward, including players on the team that heard the rumors (and they did). It wasn't just about keeping their jobs, it was about protecting the university and the program. By all accounts McQueary is a straightforward guy respected by the players for his honesty. When word got out around the team about what he saw everybody knew it had to be the truth and that's why they started distancing themselves (to a man) from Sandusky.
To some degree you can understand the desire to protect the university, but this isn't a case where they're covering up a bag of coke or a DWI. He was seen raping a kid, which is one step below murder in my (and many others') eyes. So if McQueary went to Paterno and told him he saw Sandusky murder a child, does Paterno take the same course of action (reporting it to the AD and forgetting about it)? Some things have to transcend the need to protect the program, and that's where everybody involved fell short. Something needed to be done to stop the potential for Sandusky to get his hands onto one more kid, and nobody stepped up to make sure that happened. If you were the parent of one of the kids who he molested post-2002 you would be absolutely livid that not only should have Sandusky been jailed (due to eyewitness testimony of him raping a kid), but that people in power at PSU actually took steps to see that no one found out about what McQueary saw. To say Paterno wasn't complicit in this cover up is completely delusional. From all accounts that are familiar with how PSU operates, nothing significant happens regarding his football program without Paterno knowing. Just because he might not have been the mastermind that initiated the cover-up, he was certainly aware of it and did nothing to stop it. Let's put it this way: allegations of inappropriate contact with an underage kid came out about Sandusky in 1998. The next year he was forced to retire; that can't be a coincidence considering he was to be the heir apparent to Paterno and was only 55 years old. Nobody retires in that position unless they're forced to. So when McQueary tells Paterno what he saw shouldn't bells have gone off? These guys were doing all they could to not let this get out and ruin the university, Paterno included. What they failed to realize (or maybe they did and didn't care) is that the damage that PSU will endure is not even 1/100,000th of the damage that was done to the children who were molested after 2002 when it should've been stopped.
Lee
<< <i>When that new head coach (who has been on the staff since 1979 and who should be removed from the team on paid leave in my opinion) was asked: "Will there be any more football games after this Saturday?"
His response was: "That's something the administration has to decide."
Is it possible that Penn State is thinking about shutting down the season? I think it's completely reasonable and should be considered. And if yes, why play this Saturday? (please edmundfitz, don't start in again...I know how you feel...looking for input from others) >>
Seniors day - last home game. No way the Seniors deserve what this has done to their legacy/memories.
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<< <i> From all accounts that are familiar with how PSU operates, nothing significant happens regarding his football program without Paterno knowing.
Lee >>
From all accounts that I've read, college football coaches spend 18 hour days dissecting film, recruiting, and everything related to football.
They also gets hundreds of letters, emails, and other notices about their players mistreating girls at parties, and other violations.
They are so busy with the football side of the program, that they have hired people that can take care of these other issues.
I read Tom Osborne's book about his dealing with Lawrence Phillips, a guy who played in the NFL and is now in jail. Tom Osborne
said that all he mentioned to Lawrence was that he needed some spiritual guidance in his life. Everything else was handled
by school counselors, and those trained in dealing with him. They even gave an assistant coach the responsibility of looking after
LP 24/7.
<< <i>Story by Dennis Dodd of CBS Sportsline
Interesting piece.
Robert >>
Thank you for posting. Nice piece. John Surma (president of US Steel and vice chair of trustee's) was the first PSU administrator that has shown any backbone all week. He was impressive in an awfully tight spot. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i> From all accounts that are familiar with how PSU operates, nothing significant happens regarding his football program without Paterno knowing.
Lee >>
From all accounts that I've read, college football coaches spend 18 hour days dissecting film, recruiting, and everything related to football.
They also gets hundreds of letters, emails, and other notices about their players mistreating girls at parties, and other violations.
They are so busy with the football side of the program, that they have hired people that can take care of these other issues.
I read Tom Osborne's book about his dealing with Lawrence Phillips, a guy who played in the NFL and is now in jail. Tom Osborne
said that all he mentioned to Lawrence was that he needed some spiritual guidance in his life. Everything else was handled
by school counselors, and those trained in dealing with him. They even gave an assistant coach the responsibility of looking after
LP 24/7. >>
This wasn't an allegation about a player. This was an allegation about his right-hand man.
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<< <i>stevek,
I actually feel much the same way you do; that Joe Paterno is only being used as a scapegoat while not NEARLY enough attention is being made to the ones truly responsible. And I do know what it's like to be a scapegoat as well as an abuse victim (all kinds; though the sexual abuse is from when I was a baby). And I do think it's grossly unfair that Joe's legacy and rep are now up in flames just because he didn't handle one incident from almost 10 years ago perfectly.
HOWEVER...
You may want to consider that Joe being fired is actually best...for even Joe. How do you figure you might ask? He only had three games plus a bowl game; what's the difference? Here's what the difference would be. As you know, Penn State is in 12th place in the rankings and thus an outside contender for a major bowl. And to get there the coach must be really focused and on his A-game. Given what has now happened and how all messed up Joe must be inside, do you really think he could now put his heart into coaching football? And that's not all. This coming game was the Senior Day, and had Joe been allowed to say, it would've been a real distraction for the players who dreamed of playing for Penn State or other major school since they were little. Not to mention the hell that would no doubt break loose at road games. In ANY sort of situation where it's not possible for the coach to do the job properly (no matter what if anything he did wrong), it's time for him to go. And now the players will be able to stay focused on the rest of the season and mostly not face as many distractions.
So perhaps Joe being fired now was the only way. I would've liked to have seen him finish out the season and retire gracefully too but now I believe there is no way that could've been possible. >>
Sorry to hear about your terrible experience and I hope you have recovered from it as best as possible. I guess I've been fortunate, nothing like that or even close to that ever happened to me...and sometimes I guess I don't appreciate the things I should appreciate. Stories such as this I think force us to reflect on our own lives a bit more.
Yes, I agreed with the Board's decision at this point. As much as I hate to say this, I was of course surprised, but actually felt a bit relieved when Joe was let go...simply because no matter how much Joe meant to the school and no matter how much he has done to help so many students over many years, no one person is bigger than the school...and as far as Penn State, that is the most important thing to me.
One thing that has been universal with all my private emails, no one has said or even implied that they would trade Penn State or the Penn State experience for any other school. And I have to believe that almost all college grads probably feel the same way about their school.
So here's to Penn State and long may she be great and prosper...and perhaps this will usher in a new era of football greatness for Penn State, but if not, i'll still be rooting hard every Saturday during the football season just the same. I love my Eagles and Phillies, but no sports team to me will ever top Penn State football.
<< <i>I totally understand that....but I would still bet that there are members of the team that are sickened by all this. >>
No doubt. I have no idea how they can have anything CLOSE to the Seniors day experience they envisioned for the last 4 years.
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<< <i>SteveK,
Your performance in this thread was simply pathetic.
Making dumb and biased points in sports arguments is one thing...but your credibility is completely in the toilet after this thread.
PS. THank Carol for giving you an out in this thread. >>
You're entitled to your opinion, and I do appreciate Carol.
One thing I need to learn better, is not to feed, and to ignore those who act like punks and trolls, and henceforth that's exactly what I shall do.
CU is the best, by far, coin and card forum out there, and it's great being a member here, which I hope to be for a long time.
<< <i>The fact of the matter remains that if the university president did his job, Paterno would be hailed as a hero, turning in
one of his own kind.
The university president or the police dropped the ball. >>
So, if the same assistant witnessed a murder in Paterno's office, and told Paterno about it. THen Paterno in turn told the AD about...and the AD never called the police, then based on Paterno's behavior and your train of thought, we would have to think that Paterno would just go on with his daily life while the dead body continued to lay in his office while it rotted the whole place up? All the while, not worrying about the future problem of a murderer on the loose?
<< <i>
<< <i>The fact of the matter remains that if the university president did his job, Paterno would be hailed as a hero, turning in
one of his own kind.
The university president or the police dropped the ball. >>
So, if the same assistant witnessed a murder in Paterno's office, and told Paterno about it. THen Paterno in turn told the AD about...and the AD never called the police, ? >>
I know the law states that any mistreatment of minors in an educational setting must be reported to the principal or chancellor.
I actually believe educators are trained NOT TO call the police.
A murder is a different story, and can not be used in this scenario. When the students were being shot and killed in Columbine,
it was the duty of the teachers to call the police immediately.
You really can't use that comparison, because of the training that educators get on each type of situation.
As a matter of fact, if a school went into a lockdown mode because of a perpetrator, they are told to sit in a locked room away from the windows until a policeman arrives. They do have rules to follow, even if they don't agree with them. Also, if a guy comes into
a school and kills five innocent children, and is about to draw his gun on the rest of the kids in the lunchroom, then a teacher can't run
to his truck, take out his pistol, and come in and save those kids by killing the perpetrator without going to jail himself for illegally having a weapon on school grounds. Which would you choose ? Savings the kids and going to jail, or keeping the gun in your truck and letting them die ?
I would choose jail, but I'm saying that educators have rules to follow, and Jopa followed the rules here.
I bet this is the first time in a long time that you've clicked Sports Forum instead of kitco.com in a long time.
Stay thirsty my friend.
EF
I wasn't talking about a lock down, or an emergency situation.
One would have to assume that based on Paterno's actions, he would leave that body in his office and let it create a stench that would never go away. Much like he chose not to worry about the crimes that were committed in his team's sanctuary...even though he knew full well that the guy who committed them was still there.
As has been said he was the heir apparent to Paterno. In 98 he is accused of fondling a child and admits it to the child's mother while police listen in.
He resigns in 99...and then never coaches again. Not an offer, not a rumor of consideration. Nothing.
He resorts to volunteer coaching at a local school to find his victims and of course through his charity.
The guy was damaged goods. PSU knew it and the rest of the NCAA knew it. No one was willing to take a chance on him.
That I see as very damaging evidence. This guy was a revered coach and no one would touch him. The cat was out of the bag in 98 and people managed the issue rather than putting an end to it.
There were plenty of people who suspected he was a predator and allowed him to run around campus with kids.
If there were a dead body in his football facility, he would of picked up the phone. It's as simple as that.
<< <i>Hey MJ,
I bet this is the first time in a long time that you've clicked Sports Forum instead of kitco.com in a long time.
Stay thirsty my friend.
EF >>
Ya, it didn't even know there was a Sports Talk Forum
All the best EF............MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>No. He would call the proper adminstrator to deal with that situation. Just as he did with Sandusky.
If there were a dead body in his football facility, he would of picked up the phone. It's as simple as that. >>
Then after he picked up the phone, and nobody came to deal with the body, what would he do next?
Leave it in there to rot? Call the police himself? Tell the administrators to fix the problem? Or maybe drag it out into the hallway, brush his hands and say there, that is better?
It is HIS office, much like it was HIS program.
<< <i>So what ever happened to the guy who actually WITNESSED the act by Sandusky? Is it true they were going to offer him the new head coaching position (I just heard that on the radio)?? How is that guy still allowed to breathe while Paterno is getting choked out? Talk about not doing enough! >>
He'll be coaching on the Penn State sidelines this weekend. Many feel that he has dirt on the chancellor and Paterno, and that
they won't fire him because they're afraid he'll talk and put a living legend in an even worse light. This is only speculation.
<< <i>
<< <i>No. He would call the proper adminstrator to deal with that situation. Just as he did with Sandusky.
If there were a dead body in his football facility, he would of picked up the phone. It's as simple as that. >>
Then after he picked up the phone, and nobody came to deal with the body, what would he do next?
Leave it in there to rot? Call the police himself? Tell the administrators to fix the problem? Or maybe drag it out into the hallway, brush his hands and say there, that is better?
It is HIS office, much like it was HIS program. >>
You're losing perspective my friend. Of course if there were a dead body, smelling worse and worse by the day, he would
pick up the phone again until the problem went away. But the shower scene only happened once according to reports.
As you said, if it happened day after day after day after day and Jopa didn't do more, then your story is valid.
But for a one time offense, Jopa did the right thing.