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DCW
Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭✭✭
So I got an email today advertising for something called "VaultBox." It may have come from CoinWorld.
In case you don't want to click on the link, this is from their website:
VaultBox is a totally new way for coin collectors to discover valuable coins, and for fans of other collectibles to start collecting coins.
VaultBox was inspired by the thrill of opening sports and trading card packs, and the excitement of chasing the biggest cards. VaultBox brings thrill-seeking collectors the action and excitement of card breaking to a collectible that has real and appreciable value.
VaultBox Is Authenticated By NGCX
Guaranteed Value In Every Box
You can Monetize Your VaultBox At Anytime
Anyway... it's not for me, but it's kind of an interesting concept. A sealed box of three graded coins that could be worth more or less than the cost of the box. (Like trading card packs)
In this case (series 1) it's just bullion and the boxes are $595.
Any thoughts?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
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Too gimmicky.
I won't be buying one but don't think there's anything wrong with those who are interested doing so.
I don't see these as a whole lot different than buying stuff from the mint, hoping to get coins that'll grade 70.
It could bring in some people that like the mystery and potential of finding treasure (like with cards) but it could also lead to plenty of disappointment for those that end up with $150-$200 worth of coins from a box they paid $595 for.
Here is a brief article on coinweek:
https://coinweek.com/bullion-report/box-breaks-for-coins-questions-answers-and-numbers-on-vaultbox-series-1/
As DCW said not for me but...
I looked through website and when you get your box you can enter the cert number (NGC lookup) and get information. Then there is an option to get an instant offer (to sell).
A lot of how good or bad this is to me comes down to how much profit margin is in the business (normal to TV promotional to...). Some of this comes down to what is being used to determine values.
For the first series they show these (below) as their Hits.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Reminds me of those coin subscriptions that some firms used to offer. I can remember one was Bowers and Merena, where you decided how much you wanted to spend each month, and they would surprise you with a monthly package.
Pure enticement.
Blueridgesilverhound Shaun just posted a video about this very thing.
This kind of thing is not for me. Seems like just another grab bag type thing.
If I order it, I know from past experience that I will get the $300-$400 version and I personally do not believe that they do not know which one you will get.
Couldn't resist this Se7en reference....
https://youtu.be/zi-isCMrH4w
From Borderlands 2
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
It also looks like a promotion for their 10 point grading scale as the promoted coins appear to be graded that way.
I don't like the idea, at least to the extent that it is being compared to sports cards. There may be modern day exceptions, but with traditional sports cards the sought-after cards were a bonus if you got one but the cost of the pack wasn't based on the possibility of finding the money cards.
This new coin product seems to be more akin to scratch tickets or other forms of gambling.
Just seen Shaun's video on this.
For $599 per box, 3 coins.
With the NEW NGCX grading.
10's are the 70's.
My final analysis.
# I Would love to try it!
From common to rare, high grade Eagles,
I think all are either 9.9 or 10 grades?
Platinum
Gold
Silver
Possible $20,000 Eagles?
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Not for me. If anyone buys one, please let us know what you find.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I'm changing my position on this. I'm going to buy one if I can. I've given this much thought. It would be far to risky for certain players involved to make suckers out of collectors. This deal has no choice but to be right. I don't belive that any risk is involved at all. It is my opinion that other people who give their opinion would not want the opinion of people who already have a good opinion of them to change. Nor would they want to reinforce the opinion of people who have for their own reason or reasons a negative opinion already. It has to be a win win proposition or it will create way to many bad opinions. That's my opinion. I know one thing when it comes down to it, as far as all collectibles go, its opinions that matter. Opinions buy and sell.
What's your opinion?
I think a better way of doing this would be to allow for deep discounts on submissions for a period of time using the new scale in the hope that anyone else wishing to compete for collectors who desire an opinion in writing will be detered from wandering off in another direction. I've been doing a lot of reading here, from what I can tell the entire coin community both collectors and dealers will be going through a revolution of sorts. Expansion is coming and competition will be brisk. This is usually good for collectors. Think about it, if any of these new platforms fail it will be a big deal. Not for me as a collector and not for coin dealers. That leaves only one other entity in the scheme of things. Someone very smart is directing this marketing campaign but and it's a very big BUT if it fails it could really bruise and unnecessarily damage a solid entity almost unnecessarily and allow a new one to shine even brighter. Am I making any sense?
All you need to do is think about the one huge change coming to the coin community and you might realize that something has to be done to keep things fresh for the people who drive the numbers game. I don't know if it will work. I say good luck to all involved. I'm just wondering if I am reading all of this correctly. Every once in a while it's good to look around the arena, you see the team, the coach and all the fans and spectaors. The spectators are the reason the team and arena exist to begin with. They pay admission and drink lots of beer then puke. There is only one downside to that scenario and that is that someone will win in that arena and someone will lose. The fans and spectators can decide for themselves if they enjoyed the GAME.
Maybe changing nothing at all because your solid is the right move, I really don't know. I'm just a grounding in this theatre.
Sorry for the rant but I wanted to share my thoughts and maybe convince some people that this may not be as bad as they think. I believe it's a marketing campaign of sorts. I'm sure someone will make some money but a half a million is a drop in the bucket in the coin world.
Put me down for no for the same reason I don't buy lottery tickets: I can do the math.
Maybe the slab collectors will like the red, limited edition VaultBoX labels?
At six hundo a pop, this is too much of a gamble. Maybe $100, and more of a variety than just modern mint products would draw folks in?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Not something I will be investing in... Just not interested in this type of offer. I will say, that if the coins are indeed decent, flipping will likely get the investment back with maybe a couple of extra dollars - or at least minimize the loss. Cheers, RickO
NGC is just slabbing coins for a customer just like PCGS does. This Vault Box company is NOT part of NGC.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Sure seems like a suckers bet. Still, It's not a lot of money for some folks, I could see the gamble being fun. Years down the road, I could see un-opened boxes becoming scarce and a part of numismatic history that people will look back on with interest... something like the early photo cert slabs or GSA sale memorabillia.
Click on this link to see my ebay listings.
I’m not a fan of this offering, but it isn’t directed at us traditional collectors, so it isn’t surprising most have responded with some version of “not for me”.
Combined with the X Grading scale, NGC is trying to convert other types of collectors into coins. I could see this playing well with the coin YouTuber audience, as unboxing videos in other areas are popular and dramatic. The YouTube coin crowd is often dismissed here, but I just watched a video by a streamer (who started on YouTube as a silver stacker) walk through the FUN show and pick up well over $6k of certified silver commems. That video already has over 27,000 views.
My point is that this is another entry point to our hobby, and some of these new entrants may get hooked and stick around. In an increasingly cashless society where there are fewer opportunities to start collecting from pocket change, the hobby needs diversified alternate collector acquisition channels.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Not for me, but could be fun for some. To me it's like a slightly better form of scratch off lottery tickets - you'll end up with something but with less than what you started with most of the time.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Not for me!
Reminds me of those unsearched rolls being sold on eBay.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
With a $600 price, it's gonna be tough to attract a wide audience. I would expect the "big item" in the majority of boxes to be a 1/10 ounce gold or platinum eagle. Repeat customers would seem unlikely. Some will, no doubt, salt away some unopened boxes as suggested by @Meltdown. It will be interesting to see posts by buyers detailing the exact contents of boxes.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Looks like they're taking a page out of the playbook used by the non-sports card game collecting craze. Marketing sealed boxes that people buy in the "hopes" of hitting the jackpot. IMHO. Peace Roy
BST: endeavor1967, synchr, kliao, Outhaul, Donttellthewife, U1Chicago, ajaan, mCarney1173, SurfinHi, MWallace, Sandman70gt, mustanggt, Pittstate03, Lazybones, Walkerguy21D, coinandcurrency242 , thebigeng, Collectorcoins, JimTyler, USMarine6, Elkevvo, Coll3ctor, Yorkshireman, CUKevin, ranshdow, CoinHunter4, bennybravo, Centsearcher, braddick, Windycity, ZoidMeister, mirabela, JJM, RichURich, Bullsitter, jmski52, LukeMarshall, coinsarefun, MichaelDixon, NickPatton, ProfLiz, Twobitcollector,Jesbroken oih82w8, DCW
Has $600 ever really bought a quality coin?
Keep saving
That's pretty tone deaf. You can get quality coins for far less than that amount and dreck for far more than that amount.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Someone is going to make good money on it. People love gambling.
that is HARD core man. i truly hope not many here get it.
They say, "the coins will be easy to flip". As a matter of fact, they also say, one can sell them back to VaultBox.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.Wouldn't it be more interesting if instead of bullion, they had straight graded classic coins? Maybe that's coming in series 2 ?
Imagine opening a box, and you had the chance to pull a Chain Cent or a Libertas Americana medal?
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Note the following gems from their Terms & Conditions:
"Buyer acknowledges and agrees that the value of these limited edition VaultBox coins exceeds the market price for the coins themselves."
"VaultBox does not guarantee that it’s instant offers for any given coin will equal or exceed the value of said coin at the time of purchase of a VaultBox box."
This is the give away that they are not selling to anyone who actually knows what they doing, because they are selling the illusion that they are creating intrinsic value merely by their marketing and packaging. It is also supposed to insulate them from claims that their customers got screwed when they receive $200 worth of coins for $600. Finally, they are saying that their Instant Offer program is worthless, because they are not guaranteeing they will even pay fair market for the coins, let alone the enhanced value attributable to their label.
Neither NGC nor PCGS would ever have the nerve to have their customers acknowledge in writing that their slabs add to the value of the coins, even if they do, since, arguably, they don't, since the service is really only supposed to be identifying the value that is already there. These guys are taking it to the next level by claiming to create value (i.e., a 2020-W ‘V75’ WWII Privy $50 American Gold Eagle NGCX Proof 10 Ultra Cameo is now worth more because it is in a NGCX VaultBox slab).
Unbelievable!!
It's not a loot box, it's "surprise mechanics".
Apparently they couldn't be bothered to roof read their promotional material.
Collector, occasional seller
I have never seen a positive post from you on these boards. All negative. Thanks for that.
This just isn't for me. I take a lot of pride in building my collection in a thoughtful, deliberate way. I like to pick each coin myself. A "Box-O-Randos" gives me zero control in my collecting strategy. And... it's not cheap - it would dilute the budget available to strategically advance my goals.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Sorry but anyone thinking these are a good investment of $600 are the same folks that think they're getting unsearched rolls that just happen to have an 09VDB at one end and an Indian at the other. At best you'll have high retail tied up in whatever resides in the box.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
One must look at their Contents List of possibilities.
There are approximately 50 items. How they describe the mintage/grades of each coin being given away.
Then, make your determination on this product.
It may change your Opinions?
Very hopeful list.
Plus, I'm thinking🤔 If this product is successful. I think NGC will start placing the Classic coins inside these Vault Boxes?
Ala, the 1955 doubled die Cent.
They're not saying but I think the 3 coins in the box. Will have at least a $300 value?
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.I still maintain it's an illegal lottery.
Consideration, Random Chance, Prize
That's why for a sweepstakes there is always an onerous but free entry option. It removes one leg of the stool.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Nice vette in your photo. I restore classic corvettes for a living
From what I've read and understood this is a third party that has partnered with NGC to custom slab and package the coins. NGC has nothing to do with which coins are in these.
I am not sure if it is directly said on the site but using the "one common, one uncommon, one rare" per box and their distribution page(I do like that they've made that public, I've saved it to a separate sheet in case it disappears), there are 800 boxes available. At $595 each that's a $476K total. I've not looked at the values of the "hits" to see about what the cost of the coins was to them.
Collector, occasional seller
I feel I should say again, this is not for me but here is some (not all) Q&A from the website. Some of the answers are kind of 'classic' so to say.
What if I don’t like my coins?
Not an issue! VaultBox provides Instant Offers on all of their coins, so you can sell us any coins that you do not want to keep.
How do I know I won’t get “junk” base coins?
VaultBox is fundamentally built around the concept of providing collectables that are worth something and we design our projects around that idea. In VaultBox Series 1, every coin is made from one of four precious metals: silver, gold, platinum, and palladium.
Does VaultBox know where the “Hit” coins are in a Series?
We go to great lengths to make sure we do NOT know where any given “hit” coin is. We’re able to accomplish this through the help of NGC/NGCX. After NGC/NGCX authenticates and grades our coins, they’re packaged into VaultBoxes with tamper-proof seals and shipped back to VaultBox in indistinguishable packages.
.
.
About Instant Offers
Can my “Instant Offer” change?
VaultBox is continually updating their Instant Offers to keep up with the ever-changing collectables market. Once an Instant Offer amount is agreed upon, VaultBox will not change the agreed upon amount for the sale as long as the coin(s) arrive to VaultBox in a timely manner, the coin(s) are in acceptable condition, and the individual selling the coin(s) to VaultBox adheres to all terms and conditions of the sale.
How does VaultBox determine their “Instant Offer” amount?
VaultBox monitors the coin market daily and adjusts their Instant Offer amounts based on market changes.
Can I negotiate with VaultBox’s offer?
At the moment, VaultBox does not currently negotiate Instant Offer amounts.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=_KWVk0XeB9o - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Piece Of My Heart
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
Three days ago I signed up for Coin World News to be delivered to my Email. The sale of this thing was the first mail I received. I have cancelled my subscription.
USAF veteran 1984-2005
I completely believe it. Why would they care? The only downside would be if the Privy marked gold eagle came out too early so people stopped buying.
So looking at the article referenced above, this doesn't seem that bad. The expected value per box is $723. But this is using the NGC price guide. The author opines that "street value" is 80% of the NGC guide which makes the mean box worth just slightly less than the cost.
I'm skeptical. And I think few of us would pay full retail for coins that we didn't even know what they were in advance. According to the spreadsheet referenced in that article,5 of the 800 boxes will include coins valued over $5000. I'd bet most people who don't get one of those will be disappointed. 795/800 is a lot of disappointment.
1
Au contrair, Pierre, NGC is a lot more involved than you think - they are the ones putting the 3 coins (1 from each pile) into unmarked boxes after grading.
David's article in CoinWeek (https://coinweek.com/bullion-report/box-breaks-for-coins-questions-answers-and-numbers-on-vaultbox-series-1/) does the math for you.
He computes the least and most valuable boxes as $255 and $23,835. Now, do you see why I called it a lottery?
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
2
Works well for sports cards, why not coins? Hard pass for me though.
Dave
3
It will flop and then the unopened boxes will go up in value. Too much $ to entice newbies.
4
You can be ethical and still be overpriced. Just saying.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012