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  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hansen-Eliasberg Challenge II – Part VII-v1

    There will not an update this week. There are a couple corrections to last week’s update. I sometimes view the Hansen watch as a massive research thread. I certainly appreciate when the community contributes. This past week @burdell sent me research that he discovered. After reviewing, I do agree with his conclusion.

    1841-O Eagle:
    The first eagle struck at a branch mint and the first–obviously–from New Orleans.
    Hansen Coin: 1841-O Eagle PCGS AU55 POP 5/1, Pittman Specimen
    Eliasberg Coin: 1841-O Eagle PCGS AU55 POP 5/1 AU58 POP 1/0
    Tie(0-0-1 0-1-0 ) Note: They are not the same coins

    I knew the Hansen coin and Eliasberg coin was not the same. The PCGS Condition Census clearly indicates that Eliasberg’s coin was one of the PCGS AU55 specimens tied for second with the AU58 being finer. The Hansen specimen provenance given in the posting last week was from New Netherlands' 49th Sale, June 1957, lot 236; David W. Akers' sale of the John Jay Pittman Collection, Part II, May 1998, lot 1915. This information is not shown in the PCGS Condition Census chart.

    I humbly suggest the Eliasberg 41o is now PC58 rather than 55. DW's image is still today on his Coinapedia. I snagged the image 1/13. Look above the E(STATES) in the following images. Best regards, Tom.

    41o.50r.82-10.BR665.1 Eliasberg

    41o.58pc.13-1.dwcp

    I agree with Tom. What this means, the Eliasberg is in the registry twice, with the AU55 being pedigreed to Eliasberg, and AU58 being undesignated. Is this due to a breakout upgrade? Not sure. One nice thing to say about the Hansen Collection, they are not breaking their coins coin out. They are summited to PCGS for reconsideration. I personally think that is the right way to do it.

    This change the overall score from 15-13-7 to 15-14-6

    1875 Eagle:
    Crazy low-mintage of just 200 business strikes and by far the rarest date in the series with just 7/8 or so known
    Hansen Coin: 1875 Eagle PCGS AU50 3/2 (actually 3/1) Purchased Thursday Night Heritage Auction
    Hansen Coin: 1875 Eagle PCGS PR63CAM POP 1/4
    Eliasberg Coin: 1875 Eagle Est. XF45 PCGS (John Dannreuther notes it is actually an altered date)
    Eliasberg Coin: 1875 Eagle NGC PR64, PCGS list as est. PR63, may be the best 1875 in the grouping.

    With this new information from John Dannreuther, and Mr. Hansen’s purchased in the Thursday night Heritage Auction, now the D.L. Hansen Collection should get the nod. The overall final is revised to 16-13-6. The new purchase presented a significant swing in Hansen’s favor.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The case of the 1875 Eagle wherein proof coins are separate from business strikes really loses reality in the designation of the quality of a coin. In the day of Eliasberg, proof coins and business strikes were interchangeable in a set. I think that Hansen should be given the same standard the Eliasberg's set was graded to. In other words, if Eliasberg's best specimen was a proof, that should be considered the superior grade. If Hansen's coin is a proof, then that should be considered the superior grade.

    The market makers in numismatics have sought to differentiate the more common business strikes from the much more uncommon proof strikes. This only creates market in the much more common business strike variety. The quality of a collection should not be measured by delineating between business strikes and proof coins. To compare two great collections in perspective, the PCGS Registry should be revised to a singular grading standard by which a proof coin is always graded two points higher than a business strike. And an in hand comparison of a proof and a business strike might indicate a greater differential.

    This was the standard in Eliasberg's time.........and it should be the standard for any comparison.

    OINK

  • neildrobertsonneildrobertson Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    The case of the 1875 Eagle wherein proof coins are separate from business strikes really loses reality in the designation of the quality of a coin. In the day of Eliasberg, proof coins and business strikes were interchangeable in a set. I think that Hansen should be given the same standard the Eliasberg's set was graded to. In other words, if Eliasberg's best specimen was a proof, that should be considered the superior grade. If Hansen's coin is a proof, then that should be considered the superior grade.

    This was the standard in Eliasberg's time.........and it should be the standard for any comparison.

    OINK

    I think this argument still has merit independent of whether Eliasberg did it. If you are building a set to best represent or show off the coins and types, the proofs are more well made and better for that. If they are easier to find, then that's a double win. The best collection does not always have to be the most difficult collection to assemble. In the same wat, the best artwork or song doesn't have to be the most difficult to make.

    We do factor in difficulty constantly in this discussion, and it is one of the things that can impress. If we focus on it too much, it may obscure the big picture.

    IG: DeCourcyCoinsEbay: neilrobertson
    "Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me

  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Currin said:
    1887-S Eagle Upgrade

    Over the past few days, we have seen several upgrades from the Harvey B. Jacobson, Jr. Collection of Liberty Eagles. Also, we saw Mr. Hansen added the tough date 1875 Eagle in AU50 condition. This coin may be tied for the second finest specimen known. This completes the set and is present #1 on the All Time PCGS Registry. The new upgrade for the 1887-S Eagle was purchased last week from the Heritage February 20th - US Coins Signature Auction at Long Beach, but the coin is not from the Jacobson Collection. The Jacobson coin that sold was a NGC MS64 Specimen. The provenance for Hansen’s new specimen is not given.

    1887-S Eagle MS64+ PCGS. CAC Approved

    This is the finest 1887-S Eagle certified by PCGS. The coin appeared two years ago in Heritage’s April 4th 2017, US Coins Signature Auction in Dallas. The coin was described finest at PCGS and CAC Approved. The coin realized $16,450 in 2017. At the time, Heritage stated the coin as: It is also the sole finest example endorsed by CAC.

    This coin was purchased from Heritage Auction last week. They described the coin as: This is a major condition rarity for advanced series specialists. Although the San Francisco Mint produced 817,000 ten dollar gold coins in 1887, Choice Uncirculated representatives are rare. A single Gem is known, certified by NGC, and that coin brought $25,850 in Stack's Bowers' February 2015 Americana sale. This is one of six MS64 submissions at PCGS and it is the only one with a Plus designation. It is also tied with only two other pieces at this grade level CAC (1/20). Consequently, we expect strong bidding from serious Registry builders for this fantastic rose-gold near-Gem. Fully struck and beautifully frosted with intermittent green-gold accents over marvelously preserved surfaces. In this auction, the coin realized $9,001.20. I am not sure I can explain how Mr. Hansen was able to pick up this top pop specimen at such a great price. PCGS Price Guide valued the coin in grade at $17,500. Nice pick up!

    1887-S Eagle, MS64+, PCGS POP 1/0
    Tied for Finest at PCGS and CAC
    Certification #83144224, PCGS #8711
    PCGS Price Guide: $17,500 / Heritage 2020: $$9,001.20
    Provenance: Unknown

    A top pop pcgs coin that is stickered and gold and a big coin for less than $10,000----just proof that there is value out there.

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Jefferson Nickel Upgrade

    A little change up in this posting. We will switch from gold to nickel. From my observations, it appears Mr. Hansen has a fondness for some series more than others. It may be purely price and availability, and it just looks that way. I cannot say for sure, but it seems he really has a passion for Jefferson Nickels. This is a PCGS POP 1/0 specimen that is going unto his already #1 All-Times PCGS Registry set. If you have any thoughts, please do share.

    1945-D Jefferson Nickel, MS68+ FS

    This nickel is sometimes referred as being in the War Nickel Series. Jaime Hernandez described as: Jefferson War Nickels were struck from 1942-1945. The 1945-D Jefferson Nickel is fairly common and can be purchased very inexpensively up to about MS66 condition. In MS67 condition it becomes much scarcer especially with the Full Steps designation. In MS68 condition it is extremely scarce with less than a handful of examples graded by PCGS with no examples known in better condition. This coin is the best of MS68s. There are only 5 graded MS68 FS, with the new Hansen coin being the only MS68+ FS. From the Great Collection archives: GreatCollections has sold 128 of the 1945-D Jefferson Nickel FS in the past 10 years, selling at prices from $8 to $16,313, in grades 64 to 68+. This is a crazy price range.

    The coin was purchased Sunday, Jan 19, 2020 in a Great Collections Auction. We have seen Mr. Hansen pick up some really nice coins from this auction site lately. In a Feb 17, 2020 COINWORLD publication, they featured this coin in an article titled: Market Analysis: ANA gets into the registry set collecting craze The headline read: Two WWII-era coins soared at recent online auctions, as a 1945-D Jefferson 5-cent piece in MS-68+ full steps brought $16,312.50 and a 1943-S Lincoln cent graded MS-68+ with a green CAC sticker sold for $23,626.12. This is the on-line link if you care to read more.

    https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/market-analysis-ana-gets-into-the-registry-set-collecting-craze

    PCGS Coin Value has the coin priced at $20,000. The coin realized $16,312.50 with buyer’s fee. This may not be a bad price that Mr. Hansen paid for the coin. A little commentary….I have a real appreciation for the diversity in which Mr. Hansen invests in his collection. I know everyone do not feel the same as I do. Many notable specialists see purchasing a coin like this one as being a complete waste for a collector with D.L. Hansen’s budget. For me, I do like to see a $360,000 coin purchase as we did a couple weeks ago, but I also like to see the purchase of a PCGS POP 1/0 Jefferson Nickel. Is there another active collector that has this degree of diversity in collecting?

    1945-D Jefferson Nickel PCGS MS-68+ FS, POP 1/0
    Finest certified by PCGS
    Certification #37148069, PCGS #84026
    PCGS Price Guide: $20,000
    Ex: Unknown

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,105 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The high points on the Portrait seem to show abrasion or some discoloration.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2020 2:45PM

    Hansen Won (4-1-0)

    I’ll wait for Ron Guth’s input

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Hansen Won (4-1-0)

    I’ll wait for Ron Guth’s input

    Welcome back Bruce. Nice to see you contribute. I too would like to see Ron's input. He pretty busy, but I know he will if he has time.

    On another topic, Bruce have you seen the '63 LS Dollar in the Pogue sale? Just curious if you have an opinion. The toning looks similar to your former '62. I wonder if they were from the same old time cabinet.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2020 5:02PM

    IIRC, Andre Dawson. Have not seen it in person

    Prior to that, it was in the jascha heifetz sale where it said the consignor owned it for 36 years after purchasing it from the 1953 gugenheim sale. The 1862 was not part of that Heifetz sale so if they were stored together it was prior to 1953.

  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2020 10:15AM

    @JBatDavidLawrence said:
    Now, we've clearly moved past the 1875 $10, but I had a few comments and a short story to write about the search for the coin. While it's not as scholarly as much of the writing here, I figured it was worth passing along to those who may enjoy a lighter side of the Hansen search for the coin...

    https://blog.davidlawrence.com/dlrc-and-the-1875-10/

    Wow! that was a great article! a lot of information in a short article. Thanks for sharing with us! I think the info about the Tyrant holdings blew my mind!

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,105 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great story!

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,105 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does Hansen buy the wonderful 54-S $5 in 58+?

  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    Does Hansen buy the wonderful 54-S $5 in 58+?

    Interesting to read the Stack's auction description of the coin. Part of it states "when those greatest cabinets are discussed, none surpasses Eliasberg for completeness and, particularly for the gold portion of the cabinet, for quality. This coin represents the Platonic ideal of the Eliasberg gold collection: the presence of a legendary rarity rather than excuses for its absence...."

    When I read this I felt it was directed specifically at Mr. Hansen. I wonder if others had the same thought.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,105 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Gazes said:

    @Boosibri said:
    Does Hansen buy the wonderful 54-S $5 in 58+?

    Interesting to read the Stack's auction description of the coin. Part of it states "when those greatest cabinets are discussed, none surpasses Eliasberg for completeness and, particularly for the gold portion of the cabinet, for quality. This coin represents the Platonic ideal of the Eliasberg gold collection: the presence of a legendary rarity rather than excuses for its absence...."

    When I read this I felt it was directed specifically at Mr. Hansen. I wonder if others had the same thought.

    For sure!

  • ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    Does Hansen buy the wonderful 54-S $5 in 58+?

    In case anyone wanted to see the beauty they're referring to: https://auctions.stacksbowers.com/lots/view/3-LYD1G/1854-s-liberty-head-half-eagle-au-58-pcgs-cac

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Gazes said:

    @Boosibri said:
    Does Hansen buy the wonderful 54-S $5 in 58+?

    Interesting to read the Stack's auction description of the coin. Part of it states "when those greatest cabinets are discussed, none surpasses Eliasberg for completeness and, particularly for the gold portion of the cabinet, for quality. This coin represents the Platonic ideal of the Eliasberg gold collection: the presence of a legendary rarity rather than excuses for its absence...."

    When I read this I felt it was directed specifically at Mr. Hansen. I wonder if others had the same thought.

    It's interesting to note that Eliasberg collected from 1925 until 1976 while Hansen has just started.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Currin said:
    They are not an exact match. It would be really nice to see what they look like side by side.
    .
    .
    1862 Hansen-Morelan-Share MS65, CAC Approve , CERTIFICATION #21572854, PCGS #6952


    .
    .
    1863 Pogue-Dawson-Gugenheim MS67, CERTIFICATION #38634068, PCGS #6953

    I like the Pogue coin a lot and posted it in the following thread. It will be great to see which Pogue coins Hansen is interested in.

    https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1032544/the-coins-and-medals-pogue-kept-for-himself

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 5, 2020 5:45PM

    @BestGerman said:
    Here are my comments on the Hansen-Eliasberg Challenge II – Part VIII

    1933 $10
    Eliasberg is the clear winner

    1854-O $20
    I can't find a "modern" grade on the Eliasberg example, but if I had to choose a winner based on image comparisons, I'd give this one to Hansen.

    1856-O $20
    This could be a close one. Perhaps Doug Winter can provide information on the Eliasberg PCGS AU58 and confirm that the grade is correct. Even if it is, Hansen wins by half a point.

    1861-S $20 Paquet
    I could not find a "modern" grade on this one either, but I would put Hansen as the clear winner.

    1870-CC $20
    This is an easy one - the Hansen and Eliasberg examples are one and the same.

    Thanks for your input Ron. Always glad to see you post.

    From a simple win-loss perspective, the winners are the same as what @Currin posted aside from the last coin which is the same coin.

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @BestGerman said:
    Here are my comments on the Hansen-Eliasberg Challenge II – Part VIII

    1933 $10
    Eliasberg is the clear winner

    1854-O $20
    I can't find a "modern" grade on the Eliasberg example, but if I had to choose a winner based on image comparisons, I'd give this one to Hansen.

    1856-O $20
    This could be a close one. Perhaps Doug Winter can provide information on the Eliasberg PCGS AU58 and confirm that the grade is correct. Even if it is, Hansen wins by half a point.

    1861-S $20 Paquet
    I could not find a "modern" grade on this one either, but I would put Hansen as the clear winner.

    1870-CC $20
    This is an easy one - the Hansen and Eliasberg examples are one and the same.

    Thanks for your input Ron. Always glad to see you post.

    From a simple win-loss perspective, the winners are the same as what @Currin posted aside from the last coin which is the same coin.

    Thanks Ron!

    Yes, the total results is changed only slightly. The new total is 19-14-7 in favor of the D.L. Hansen Collection

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • CaptainBluntCaptainBlunt Posts: 186 ✭✭✭

    1861-S Paquet
    In a letter dated January 5th James Ross Snowden Director of the Mint wrote to Charles H Hempstead Superintendent of the SFBM
    the following

    In preparing the new dies for 1861,
    a slight deviation in the diameter
    of the double eagle was inadvertently made. As it is highly important that a proper uniformity
    of size should be maintained. I have
    to request that you will use the old
    reverses of the double eagle dies
    and not the new ones. If you require
    any additional reverses they will
    be forwarded on your requisition

    The message was not delivered until
    Feb 2

    Meanwhile in SF
    On January 16th the SFBM Coiner
    delivered 5,000 Double Eagles
    By the end of the month the total number was 17,250 pieces.

    On February 2nd the date the message was received 3,000 additional DE ‘s were delivered

    Hempstead wrote back to Snowden
    and told him $385,000 DE (Paquet
    reverse) had been coined or (19,250
    pieces)
    Thus it is possible both Paquet and old reverse DE’s were delivered at the SFBM on that day

    I did not see any mass melting of these pieces

    On August 9th Donahue, Ralston
    & Co. deposited for melting
    31.13 ozs of Double Eagles

    While it is quite possible that these coins bore the Paquet Reverse the number is too small to have had any impact on the survival rate of these coins

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Bottle Cap Collection

    For everyone that has been watching D.L Hansen the last couple years, you should agree the collection is massive. I would personally estimate the collection to be 15,000 PCGS Certified Coins give or take a couple thousand. The collection is centered on his quest to complete as many as possible for the US standard issues. In addition to that mission, he has a nice start to the proofs, major variances, moderns, bullion, commemoratives, and much more. Fall (2018) he went on a cleanup mission, and it appear he is still on the mission. I see his focus as:

    1) collecting the final handful of coins needed to complete the PCGS HOF Basic set,
    2) upgrading the basic set, and
    3) adding to his number #2 sets. I feel the #2 sets have a purpose, but I am not sure I know what that is.

    After viewing the last several months, it appears to me the team is razor focus on these three priorities.

    The collection is not only large in number, but has big boy coins. The gold series that I have been posting the last several weeks will testify to that. The past couple years, he has purchased several record rarities. In 2019, he purchased the #1 highest selling coin in the US, when the 1885 Trade Dollar realized $3,969,000. He had the #2 honor in 2018 with the 1804 Mickey-Hawn Dollar at $2,640,000. His collection has grown to over 1000 PCGS sets, and hundreds of millions of dollars.

    So, with priorities as they are, then how come 19 Large Cents Newcomb Die Variety Specimens are added? The last that I discussed Newcomb Die Variety Sets was October 2018. The two date runs create a massive collection of Large Cents. As D.L. Hansen’s Collection stands today:

    Large Cents Die Variety Set by Newcomb, CS (1816-1839) Requires 244 and have 176 (72%) (53% in 2018)

    Large Cents Die Variety Set by Newcomb, CS (1839-1857) Requires 373 and have 309 (83%) (73% in 2018)

    As you can see, 1816 – 1857, there are 617 coins required and the Hansen Collection has 485 presently. Building variety sets really expands the focus and the coin count in the Hansen Collection. So why?

    I think many people view Mr. Hansen as a billionaire collector that collects coins and store them in his vault. That is a true statement for sure, but also he is a typically collector like many of us that simply enjoy collecting and especially the thrill of making a find. I would think the purchase of a four million coin can be a thrill, but it appear he also enjoys buying the “rather inexpensive” large cents in what I call his bottle cap collection. I asked John Brush what was the deal. As much work that required to maintain the basic objectives of the collection, why spend time on Newcomb Die Variety purchases? He relied: That’s a set DLH has been working on for long time… just a small project which he enjoys filling holes. Does that not sound like you and me?

    • 1817 13 Stars Newcomb -1 AU50BN POP 3/2
    • 1817 13 Stars Newcomb -2 AU58BN POP 1/8
    • 1817 13 Stars Newcomb -4 AU53BN POP 1/3
    • 1817 13 Stars Newcomb -5 MS63BN POP 2/
    • 1819 Small Date Newcomb -6 MS62BN POP 2/3
    • 1820/19 Newcomb -2 AU58BN POP 3/6
    • 1820 Large Date Newcomb -12 MS64BN POP 1/4
    • 1825 Newcomb -6 AU58BN POP 3/7
    • 1826 Newcomb -6 AU58+ BN POP 1/9
    • 1827 Newcomb -3 AU58BN POP 1/5
    • 1829 Medium Letters Newcomb -VF30BN POP 1/4
    • 1830 Large Letters Newcomb -5 MS63BN POP 1/1
    • 1831 Large Letters Newcomb -9 MS62BN POP 3/1
    • 1833 Newcomb -1 MS62BN POP 2/2
    • 1834 Large 8 Sm St ML Newcomb -4 MS62BN POP 1/7
    • 1836 Newcomb -1 AU58BN POP 1 2
    • 1836 Newcomb -2 MS62BN POP 3/6
    • 1838 Newcomb -3 MS62BN POP 2/7
    • 1838 Newcomb -12 MS63BN POP 1/6

    .
    .
    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/half-cents/large-cents-specialty-sets/large-cents-die-variety-set-by-newcomb-circulation-strikes-1816-1839/alltimeset/150803
    .
    .
    1817 1C Newcomb 5, BN MS63BN Certification #81396779, PCGS #36562


    .
    .
    1830 1C Newcomb-5 Large Letters, BN MS63BN Certification #05937701, PCGS #36949


    .
    .
    1838 1C Newcomb 3, BN MS62BN Certification #38046739, PCGS #37186

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • This content has been removed.
  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @btcollects said:
    not a complete set without every die variety and die state

    .
    I agree that die variety (major and minor varieties) could be considered as a completion of a collection. They are different coins from unique dies. I don’t feel that I can agree with the notion that every die state is needed. These coins are the same coin from the same dies, just a different life cycle of the dies.

    Assembling a complete collection of die variety (major and minor varieties) would be mind blowing. For the gold series, think of the number of coins required. It is interesting to ponder the possibility.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2020 4:37PM

    Great post @Currin. You got me to look up the status of the Buffalo Registry Sets.

    I wonder why Hansen didn't win a gold award in 2019 since it looks like none were award that year, just 2 platinums.

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Even if what looks like maybe a toning line isn't a scratch across the obv. That precludes a 68 grade to me.

    @Currin said:
    D. L. Hansen Buffalo Nickel Update

    Almost a year has passed from this last update on Buffalo Nickels. I call this set a work in progress, with slow going. As I wrote a year ago, the #1 Registry Buffalo Nickel Set is the HOF Forsythe Set. The set is a long standing set that has maintained the award of the best of the registry since 2005. The set received its HOF status in 2005. It will be difficult, really impossible for Hansen to overcome this set. To make matters even grimmer, JDG Trust Collection has an amazing set of Buffalos that is rank #2.

    In the Buffalo collection, Mr. Hansen upgrades coins when they become available. The Buffalo Nickel set is obviously a series that he is not very aggressive. I am sure weighing the competition is a leading reason. In the first upgrades for 2020, he replaced three coins. They were 1925-S MS65 POP 33/3, 1931-S MS67 POP 13/0, and the best for last, amazing 1917 MS68 POP 4/0. This is a set that really all Mr. Hansen can hope to do is chip away when better coins come available. He replaced nine coins in 2019 and three so far in 2020. With eleven of the PCGS POP 1/0 Specimens are tied up in the top two sets, the expectations should not be set but so high. As I stated last year, to overcome the #2 set may also be an impossible challenge.

    1917 Buffalo Nickel, MS68 (Gold Shield)
    Certification #38969830, PCGS #3934, POP 4/0
    PCGS Price Guide Value: $40,000

    Expert David Hall comments: In circulated grades, the 1917 is about equal in rarity to the 1915, 1916, and 1918. In Gem condition, the 1917 is about equal in rarity to the 1914, and it is rarer than the 1915, 1916, and 1919, but not as rare as the 1918. As a group, the 1914 to 1919 Philadelphia Mint issues are not quite as rare in Gem condition as the 1920 to 1924 issues, then beginning in 1925 many more examples were saved (thank you, Wayte Raymond!) The 1917, like most Philadelphia Buffalo nickels, is usually very well struck. Luster can be somewhat satiny to somewhat frosty.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    Even if what looks like maybe a toning line isn't a scratch across the obv. That precludes a 68 grade to me.

    @Currin said:
    D. L. Hansen Buffalo Nickel Update

    Almost a year has passed from this last update on Buffalo Nickels. I call this set a work in progress, with slow going. As I wrote a year ago, the #1 Registry Buffalo Nickel Set is the HOF Forsythe Set. The set is a long standing set that has maintained the award of the best of the registry since 2005. The set received its HOF status in 2005. It will be difficult, really impossible for Hansen to overcome this set. To make matters even grimmer, JDG Trust Collection has an amazing set of Buffalos that is rank #2.

    In the Buffalo collection, Mr. Hansen upgrades coins when they become available. The Buffalo Nickel set is obviously a series that he is not very aggressive. I am sure weighing the competition is a leading reason. In the first upgrades for 2020, he replaced three coins. They were 1925-S MS65 POP 33/3, 1931-S MS67 POP 13/0, and the best for last, amazing 1917 MS68 POP 4/0. This is a set that really all Mr. Hansen can hope to do is chip away when better coins come available. He replaced nine coins in 2019 and three so far in 2020. With eleven of the PCGS POP 1/0 Specimens are tied up in the top two sets, the expectations should not be set but so high. As I stated last year, to overcome the #2 set may also be an impossible challenge.

    1917 Buffalo Nickel, MS68 (Gold Shield)
    Certification #38969830, PCGS #3934, POP 4/0
    PCGS Price Guide Value: $40,000

    Expert David Hall comments: In circulated grades, the 1917 is about equal in rarity to the 1915, 1916, and 1918. In Gem condition, the 1917 is about equal in rarity to the 1914, and it is rarer than the 1915, 1916, and 1919, but not as rare as the 1918. As a group, the 1914 to 1919 Philadelphia Mint issues are not quite as rare in Gem condition as the 1920 to 1924 issues, then beginning in 1925 many more examples were saved (thank you, Wayte Raymond!) The 1917, like most Philadelphia Buffalo nickels, is usually very well struck. Luster can be somewhat satiny to somewhat frosty.

    It would be great to know what the graders thought since multiple people looked at it.

  • AotearoaAotearoa Posts: 1,472 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Currin said:

    @btcollects said:
    not a complete set without every die variety and die state

    .
    I agree that die variety (major and minor varieties) could be considered as a completion of a collection. They are different coins from unique dies. I don’t feel that I can agree with the notion that every die state is needed. These coins are the same coin from the same dies, just a different life cycle of the dies.

    Assembling a complete collection of die variety (major and minor varieties) would be mind blowing. For the gold series, think of the number of coins required. It is interesting to ponder the possibility.

    There is no way that was a serious comment! Maybe if he/she hadn't added "... and die state"...

    Smitten with DBLCs.

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Currin said:

    @btcollects said:
    not a complete set without every die variety and die state

    .
    I agree that die variety (major and minor varieties) could be considered as a completion of a collection. They are different coins from unique dies. I don’t feel that I can agree with the notion that every die state is needed. These coins are the same coin from the same dies, just a different life cycle of the dies.

    Assembling a complete collection of die variety (major and minor varieties) would be mind blowing. For the gold series, think of the number of coins required. It is interesting to ponder the possibility.

    >
    >

    Just to add a little perspective to attempting a collection of this size and scope, this was found in the book authored by J. W. Dannreuther:

    Collecting any series, especially early gold coins, by variety and die state, as previously noted, is difficult. Harry W. Bass, Jr, collected all the gold coins from 1795 to 1834 by this method. Thus, he obtained all 29 quarter eagles, 133 of the 143 half eagles, and 32 of the 33 eagles. He also had different die states for many of the issues...... The number of die states for these 205 coins is unknown, but it likely approaches 1,000. (page 24)

    HWB,jr came up 11 coins short of the 205. I believe at lease two new varieties have been discovered since the book was published. Without digging deeper and just by memory, I know there are at least two halve eagles not collectible due to only known unique specimens are in the Smithsonian. It is still interesting to ponder someone attempting to collect all series by major and minor variety.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020 7:59AM

    Eliasberg’s pioneer gold was woefully under graded in the auction catalog (by today’s standards). I own his Miner’s Bank $10, for example. It was listed as EF40, now resides in a P58 CAC holder. This will make comparisons like this very difficult.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020 9:28AM

    @OriginalDan said:
    Eliasberg’s pioneer gold was woefully under graded in the auction catalog (by today’s standards). I own his Miner’s Bank $10, for example. It was listed as EF40, now resides in a P58 CAC holder. This will make comparisons like this very difficult.

    In the comparison above, it happens to be easy to compare because Hansen doesn’t have the mentioned territorial coins yet ;)

    But I agree straight grade comparison can be challenging if the grades are from different time periods. It would be best to have grades from the same time period, whether TPGs or other expert options who have seen the coins.

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @OriginalDan said:
    Eliasberg’s pioneer gold was woefully under graded in the auction catalog (by today’s standards). I own his Miner’s Bank $10, for example. It was listed as EF40, now resides in a P58 CAC holder. This will make comparisons like this very difficult.

    In the comparison above, it happens to be easy to compare because Hansen doesn’t have the mentioned territorial coins yet ;)

    But I agree straight grade comparison can be challenging if the grades are from different time periods. It would be best to have grades from the same time period, whether TPGs or other expert options who have seen the coins.

    Yeah, and with Territorial you can sometimes track down the coin, because there are only a handful in high grade. With enough looking we might be able to create a fair comparison if we can find the current grade of the Eliasberg coin.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like how Hansen continues to win without even owning specimens....

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020 12:42PM

    @Currin said:
    Hansen-Eliasberg Challenge II – Part X
    [...]
    1850 Baldwin Ten Dollar “Horseman” Type: My favorite design of any Territorial gold issue with a Vaquero astride a horse on the obverse.
    Hansen Coin: 1850 Baldwin Ten Dollar “Horseman” Type – No specimen in D. L. Hansen Collection
    Eliasberg Coin: 1850 Baldwin Ten Dollar “Horseman” Type PCGS est. AU55
    Hansen Won (1-1-1)
    [...]
    1860 Clark Gruber Ten Dollar “Mountain” Type: The charming Pikes Peak design, struck for use in Denver and the Colorado Territory.
    Hansen Coin: 1860 Clark Gruber Ten Dollar “Mountain” Type – No specimen in D. L. Hansen Collection
    Eliasberg Coin: 1860 Clark Gruber Ten Dollar “Mountain” Type Est. AU50
    Hansen Won (3-1-1)

    @tradedollarnut makes a good point.

    @Currin Why did Hansen win the two above if he doesn't have specimens?

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    I like how Hansen continues to win without even owning specimens....

    This thread is too dense to go back and look... Which specimen coins are you referencing?

  • 10000lakes10000lakes Posts: 811 ✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @Currin said:
    Hansen-Eliasberg Challenge II – Part X
    [...]
    1850 Baldwin Ten Dollar “Horseman” Type: My favorite design of any Territorial gold issue with a Vaquero astride a horse on the obverse.
    Hansen Coin: 1850 Baldwin Ten Dollar “Horseman” Type – No specimen in D. L. Hansen Collection
    Eliasberg Coin: 1850 Baldwin Ten Dollar “Horseman” Type PCGS est. AU55
    Hansen Won (1-1-1)
    [...]
    1860 Clark Gruber Ten Dollar “Mountain” Type: The charming Pikes Peak design, struck for use in Denver and the Colorado Territory.
    Hansen Coin: 1860 Clark Gruber Ten Dollar “Mountain” Type – No specimen in D. L. Hansen Collection
    Eliasberg Coin: 1860 Clark Gruber Ten Dollar “Mountain” Type Est. AU50
    Hansen Won (3-1-1)

    @tradedollarnut makes a good point.

    @Currin Why did Hansen win the two above if he doesn't have specimens?


    I think it was just an oversight in not updating the individual coin results. The total result was mentioned earlier in the post.


    “ The total value for Hansen’s two coins is $212,000. This week’s result is 1-3-1.”

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2020 2:01PM

    Results this week. Hansen won - 1, Eliasberg won - 3, Tie - 1..... for 1-3-1 as 10000lakes posted.
    Glad to see he could follow the posting even being a little confusing.. good job

    1915-S Panama-Pacific Round Fifty Dollars - Hansen Won
    1915-S Panama-Pacific Octagonal Fifty Dollars - Tie
    1850 Baldwin Ten Dollar “Horseman” Type - Eliasberg Won
    1852 Humbert Fifty Dollar Slug - Eliasberg Won
    1860 Clark Gruber Ten Dollar “Mountain” Type - Eliasberg Won

    Eliasberg Won (3-1-1) for week 10.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004

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