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Hansen watch.

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  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,829 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020 8:02PM

    Thanks for posting @Currin ! Those proof half eagles are amazing!

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 10:32PM

    Given the comparisons with Eliasberg, what do people think about 1-to-1 comparisons of Hansen and Eliasberg coins? This way we can compare the coins in addition to the grades.

    Here's an interesting coin. Both of these coins were PCGS MS67 CAC, however the Hansen coin has been upgraded to PCGS MS68.

    1905-S Barber Half Dollar - PCGS MS68 - Hansen

    This coin was PCGS MS67 CAC in 2013. The cert number has been upgraded to PCGS MS68. The strange thing is that while PCGS says the cert number is active, CAC says it is inactive, though it still shows as CAC approved at MS67. I wonder if it will be CAC approved at MS68 after the website is sorted out.

    1905-S Barber Half Dollar, PCGS MS68
    PCGS Certification #05976619 POP 1/0
    PCGS Price Guide: n/a / Stack's 2013 Americana: $20,562.50

    1905-S Barber Half Dollar - PCGS MS67 CAC - Clapp-Eliasberg-Perfection

    This is the Eliasberg coin. It was POP 3/0 but is now POP 2/1 since the Hansen coin has upgraded.

    1905-S Barber Half Dollar, PCGS MS67 CAC
    PCGS Certification #25638239 POP 2/1
    PCGS Price Guide: $24,000.00

  • PerfectionPerfection Posts: 180 ✭✭✭

    The question still remains with most coins: would you rather own a non cac coin that is one grade higher than a cac coin which is one grade lower? If you are a registry person and only care about points the it is option one.
    However we can see the cac premiums are steadily increasing. At point upgrading many coins will not be worthwhile. Cac coins are much rarer than people believe. The cac pops are perhaps off by maybe 10-20%. Cac coins are cracked, upgraded all the time. Some tags are not returned to cac, making the pops too high.
    So why does Hansen want to upgrade? He already has the top set so there is no need.
    He has the coin marked as Cac but it it not. Upgrading seems foolish. Most in the know people are aware of the upgrade so why bother?
    ,
    I have always stated it is very hard to build a top all cac set. It gets even harder with all these upgrades. Sure it has been done by Laura, Bruce a few others.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 25, 2020 10:18PM

    @Perfection said:
    The question still remains with most coins: would you rather own a non cac coin that is one grade higher than a cac coin which is one grade lower?

    Aside from characteristics of the individual coin and can be very important, it may come down to preferences for grade, registry points and price.

    He has the coin marked as Cac but it it not.

    I would actually give him a break on that, unless you know something other than what's been published on the Registry Set and Cert Verification. If the coin just upgraded, it could be that he listed it as CAC with its old grade, PCGS MS67 CAC, and CAC sometimes takes a while to recertify at the new grade. We've seen this with a few coins, including one where Bruce listed a coin as CAC but the new cert hadn't shown up in the CAC database yet. We've also seen green beans upgrade by a full point and get a green bean again. The CAC database also seems to have a problem with this coin as it thinks an active PCGS cert number is inactive.

    I have always stated it is very hard to build a top all cac set. It gets even harder with all these upgrades. Sure it has been done by Laura, Bruce a few others.

    It sure is difficult. If you want an all CAC set, sometimes you need to downgrade, which Bruce indicated he has done.

  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 7,127 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 5:55AM

    @Currin said:
    Hansen-Eliasberg Challenge II – Part IV-a

    Hansen WOW Coins

    The Spectacular Naftzger 1821 Half Eagle
    Tied for Finest Certified of the Design Type
    1821 Capped Head Left Half Eagle. Bass Dannreuther-1. Rarity-6+. Mint State-66+ (PCGS)
    PCGS Price Guide: $675,000 / Stacks-Bowers Auction 5/2016: $564,000

    Ex: Abe Kosoff; “a well known Texas numismatist,” probably Robert Schermerhorn; R.E. “Ted” Naftzger, Jr. Collection; Paramount’s fixed price list of the R.E. Naftzger, Jr. Collection of Early U.S. Half Eagles, 1981; Paramount (David Akers), by sale, April 1982 - D. Brent Pogue Collection - Stack's/Bowers & Sotheby's 5/2016:4036, $564,000
    .
    .
    The Finest Known Mint State 1826 Half Eagle
    From the Stickney, Dunham, and Eliasberg Collections
    1826 Capped Head Left Half Eagle. Bass Dannreuther-1. Rarity-5. Mint State-66+ (PCGS)
    PCGS Price Guide: $575,000 / Stacks-Bowers Auction 5/2016: $446,500

    Ex: Matthew A. Stickney Collection, before 1854; Miss Cornelia A. Stickney and Miss Lucy W. Stickney, by descent, 1895; Henry Chapman’s sale of the Matthew A. Stickney Collection, June 1907, lot 668; William Forrester Dunham Collection; Chester F. Dunham, by descent, 1936; B. Max Mehl’s sale of the William F. Dunham Collection, June 1941, lot 2099; Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. Collection; New Netherlands Coin Company’s 49th sale, June 1957, lot 381; Abe Kosoff’s sale of the Alex Shuford Collection, May 1968, lot 1958; David Akers, by sale, May 1996 - D. Brent Pogue Collection - Stack's/Bowers & Sotheby's 5/2016:4036, $446,500
    .
    .

    Extremely Rare 1829 Large Planchet Half Eagle
    Finest Known, The Eliasberg Coin
    1829 Capped Head Left Half Eagle. Large Diameter. BD-1. Rarity-7, Mint State-66+ (PCGS)
    PCGS Price Guide: $850,000 / Stacks-Bowers Auction 5/2016: $$763,750

    Ex: Harlan P. Smith Collection - S.H. & H. Chapman 5/1906:218, $240 - J.M Clapp Collection - John H. Clapp Collection, sold intact in 1942 - Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr. Collection - Bowers & Ruddy 10/1982:387, $82,500 - Marvin Browder Collection - RARCOA, sold privately in 9/1987 - D. Brent Pogue Collection - Stack's/Bowers & Sotheby's 5/2016:4036, $763,750

    Is it just me, or did the 1829 get “fatter”? 🧐😂

    Seated Half Society member #38
    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • CatbertCatbert Posts: 7,127 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh, I see it is a large planchet version so maybe my eyes aren’t wrong.

    Seated Half Society member #38
    "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Catbert said:
    Is it just me, or did the 1829 get “fatter”? 🧐😂

    It's not just you. Miss Liberty apparently ages the same way that I do.

  • RedCopperRedCopper Posts: 173 ✭✭✭

    Mr. Perfection stated it is better to own a CAC coin in the lower grade than a non CAC coin
    in the higher grade.
    However I tried to down grade a $100,000 coin and PCGS wanted 1% or $ 1,000 to do it.
    I chose to wait.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RedCopper said:
    Mr. Perfection stated it is better to own a CAC coin in the lower grade than a non CAC coin
    in the higher grade.
    However I tried to down grade a $100,000 coin and PCGS wanted 1% or $ 1,000 to do it.
    I chose to wait.

    Smart strategy IMHO.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @RedCopper said:
    Mr. Perfection stated it is better to own a CAC coin in the lower grade than a non CAC coin
    in the higher grade.
    However I tried to down grade a $100,000 coin and PCGS wanted 1% or $ 1,000 to do it.
    I chose to wait.

    Smart strategy IMHO.

    P.S. Is there a 1% surcharge on guarantee submissions.

  • PerfectionPerfection Posts: 180 ✭✭✭

    That's the game. Pay to play. Just how it is.
    I would 100% do it.
    Same with NGC crosses. As stated before PCGS is usually worth more for the exact same coin.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 7:09PM

    @Perfection said:
    That's the game. Pay to play. Just how it is.
    I would 100% do it.
    Same with NGC crosses. As stated before PCGS is usually worth more for the exact same coin.

    If you're selling, and there is an increase in sales price that is greater than the fees to realize the higher price that is one thing. If you are a collector wanting to hold onto to a coin, it is utterly absurd to pay four figures for fresh plastic.

  • PerfectionPerfection Posts: 180 ✭✭✭

    Sorry for the most part I do not agree with that.
    Things could change. Cac could close, grading could even get looser.
    Many times it takes many many times to cross coins. One must start the game early.
    What do think about upgrading and losing the Cac sticker? To me that is usually absurd.
    Hansen now has a 68 that will not Cac. It is not on the cac pops. Maybe it will but doubtful.

    Your coin is not the grade on holder,or,as many say it is week for the grade. I would downgrade and pay fast. The amount of fees are irrelevant to the total cost.

    Unrelated: It seems that a very LARGE amount of pluses are being given out. In time this will water down their values. Does anyone notice the same thing?

    Btw. I agree with Bruce. Give me all the Eliasburg coins at one grade yes.
    Also hansen does have lots of great gold regardless of the grades on the holders.

  • edwardjulioedwardjulio Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Perfection
    Would this be absurd?
    Was:
    MSxxCAC
    CAC Pop 2/1
    PCGS Pop 2/1
    PG $18,000
    Upgrade:
    MSXX No CAC
    PCGS Pop 1/1
    PG $34,000

    I think it depends on the coin. I realize Price Guides are just that.

    End Systemic Elitism - It Takes All Of Us

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Perfection said:
    Sorry for the most part I do not agree with that.
    Things could change. Cac could close, grading could even get looser.

    JA gives a month notice when he is closing for Christmas. He would likely give even more notice of a permanent closure. He isn't likely to shut his door over night. As for the multiple attempts argument, I don't buy this either. I'm sure if you sent a note under a $25 guarantee submission stating "this is over graded, I don't want a payout but I want it reslabbed at current grade - 1 interval" PCGS would be happy to oblige.

    Many times it takes many many times to cross coins. One must start the game early.
    What do think about upgrading and losing the Cac sticker? To me that is usually absurd.

    If you collect plastic and stickers perhaps. If your focus is on the shiny metallic disk in the middle, it matters much less.

    Hansen now has a 68 that will not Cac. It is not on the cac pops. Maybe it will but doubtful.

    Your coin is not the grade on holder,or,as many say it is week for the grade. I would downgrade and pay fast. The amount of fees are irrelevant to the total cost.

    Fees are always relevant.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 26, 2020 10:31PM

    @Perfection said:
    Many times it takes many many times to cross coins. One must start the game early.

    I've heard some coins with 30+ attempts. It was fun seeing those on CoinFacts but unfortunately we've lost like 95% of the CoinFacts photos now. It would be great to get them back one day, no dupes necessary.

    What do think about upgrading and losing the Cac sticker? To me that is usually absurd.

    How would you know if it will, or won't, CAC at a higher grade without trying it?

    There have been coins posted here that have been green beaned at one level, upgraded a full point, and then green beaned again at the higher level. That would be a great result.

    Hansen now has a 68 that will not Cac. It is not on the cac pops. Maybe it will but doubtful.

    I don't know if the coin will CAC or not so it will be interesting to see what happens with the coin once CAC's website is sorted. As mentioned, the CAC website seems to not be able to handle PCGS upgrading the grade with the same cert number. It might be worth contacting JA just go get the PCGS cert handling straightened out.

    I do want to mention that when I posted the coins, I had no idea that the Eliasberg coin was yours. I saw a slab photo and PCGS Cert Verification doesn't mention your provenance, just that the coin is in a private registry set. Only after posting and looking up the CoinFacts condition census did I see that it was yours. Your coin does have a nice look to it.

    Also hansen does have lots of great gold regardless of the grades on the holders.

    They are dazzling to look at.

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    Hansen could do so much better on the 38-C, 38-D and 61-C. That 38-C is stripped to death.

    .

    I can relate to this comment.

    I anticipate at some point in the future these coins will be replaced when the right replacements becomes available. D.L Hansen Collection of US Issues (I believe to be) is the 6275 piece U.S. Coins Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1792-present). This collection can never be completed, but from my observation, at some point, Mr. Hansen will get as close to completion as possible. He is approx. 425 coins remaining, 93.2% complete. Last time that I looked (a couple months ago), the collection needed roughly 75 to 80 modern varieties pieces. Mostly satin Presidential Dollars. I asked John Brush, why you don’t complete this due to them being rather inexpensive pieces, and he simply replied, “It is not our focus right now”.

    The three coins you referenced 38-C, 38-D and 61-C; PCGS higher POPs are 8, 11, and 13. So, they can be upgraded when a specimen comes available that fits the plan. From my observation, the focus is on the basic rarities and upgrades when they come available. I have not tried to determined how many upgrades that were procured in 2019, but I can tell you, the number is massive.

    Since we are talking about half eagles, I did look at the Hansen’s U.S. $5 Gold Complete Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (1795-1929). In this set that requires 274 coins, Mr. Hansen upgraded approx. 50 of them (18.25%) in 2019. There are seven specimens that are circulated graded EF45 or less. This represents about 2.5% of the Half Eagle Basic Circulation Strikes set. There are 52 specimens; including three mentioned here that are AU50 to AU58+. A hand full of the AUs are top pops, but the remainder I would feel are subjects for upgrading. It does not surprise me when “non condition census” and “non BU” coins are upgraded. We have seen Mr. Hansen replace condition census coins, including PCGS POP 1/1 specimens. This is a little more surprising and amazing to me.

    So I close to say, if Mr. Hansen continues on his pace, it is a good chance at least one or more of these three coins will be replaced in 2020.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • Winchester1873Winchester1873 Posts: 201 ✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    He should buy the 38-C $5 from Doug Winter!

    +1 that!!

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    He should buy the 38-C $5 from Doug Winter!

    .
    The coin is a very intriguing specimen. If I was to place a wager, I would give odds that an offer has been made to Mr. Hansen. If you recall a statement that I made in the last posting a couple hours ago, rings true.

    So, they can be upgraded when a specimen comes available that fits the plan.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    He should buy the 38-C $5 from Doug Winter!

    .
    The coin is a very intriguing specimen. If I was to place a wager, I would give odds that an offer has been made to Mr. Hansen. If you recall a statement that I made in the last posting a couple hours ago, rings true.

    So, they can be upgraded when a specimen comes available that fits the plan.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 27, 2020 8:12PM
    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • PerfectionPerfection Posts: 180 ✭✭✭

    I would assume that DLH is aware of the coin. He could have other coins he wants more. Never know.
    Several top people have told me my 1905 is the finest looking by far.
    Cac does not usually sticker coins at the new higher grades. Sure it happens but perhaps one in a hundred. For the most part the grade and Cac matter more than what you think of the coin.

  • JBatDavidLawrenceJBatDavidLawrence Posts: 504 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RedCopper said:
    Generally Speaking
    Tyrant continually exhibits his coins
    at the Long Beach for the public to see
    Hansen really only exhibits his coins
    On the PCGS message boards and the PCGS Set Registry web site.
    Like I said before , perhaps it is time for Hansen to exhibit some of his sets at major shows and invite people with same sets to exhibit
    their sets.

    Well, this isn't exactly correct. We've displayed quite a few coins at the past ANA Shows and the 2018 FUN Show.
    Seated Dollars, Proof Trade Dollars, and some highlights from the gold and Barber Quarters (finest known 1901-S 25c PCGS/CAC MS68+).

    We're working on some more displays in the near future, but it takes time and logistics to work these things out!

    Thanks

    John Brush
    President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
    email: John@davidlawrence.com
    2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
  • JBatDavidLawrenceJBatDavidLawrence Posts: 504 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Currin said:

    @Srotag said:
    I much preferred the OGH-55CAC to the 62+ at FUN (that's why I bought it :blush: ), especially at 40% of the price. The 55 may someday be a 58, but never an MS coin. I think the same could be said of the 62+ :wink:
    BTW, the HA auction record of the 62+ indicates "This Owner is proactively entertaining offers". Why is Hanson offering the coin for sale thru HA immediately after winning it at auction? Usually that is an indication that the HA wholesale dept bought the coin. Are we sure Hanson bought it?

    Yes, I can confirm he purchased the coin. If it is offered for sale, it because the coin realized less than he thought it would. He has multiple coins and maybe more that one duplicate. If coin is immediately being offered, tells me that Hansen does not have an emotional attachment to coin. Same as the 1856-S Half Eagle that he purchased and sold it the next morning for a profit.

    As has been posted to this thread, already, just because a coin shows as “This Owner is proactively entertaining offers” doesn’t necessarily mean the owner knowingly chose to show the coin as being available for sale.

    Mark is correct. The coins are not being offered for sale via Heritage. It's simply a silly setting that we haven't turned off on his account.

    John Brush
    President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
    email: John@davidlawrence.com
    2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBatDavidLawrence said:
    Sorry for the recent bursts in posts today.
    As some of you know, we've dealt with several major ailments in my family in the past several months that have forced me to reply less here and on Hansen topics to focus on DLRC-related and family-related issues. We're hopefully on our way out of these issues and I'm attempting to catch up with Currin and with projects related to the Hansen Collection.

    I heard some rumors at the FUN show that we were no longer buying, but I can assure you that it's not true.
    While there are less coins for us to pursue in filling holes, we are concentrating more on pieces of need that make "sense" for us to add to the primary collection and to finish and develop some of the 2nd and 3rd sets. I'll do my best to keep up here in the coming weeks and please don't hesitate to throw any questions to me and I'll do my best to try to answer.

    John,

    I understand the goal of the primary collection. What is the idea or goal behind having a 2nd or 3rd set in multiple series? Thanks

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBatDavidLawrence said:

    @MathandBikes said:
    Are there any plans to start showcasing pieces of this set at various shows?

    I’ve never traveled outside of the state for a show but I know if Hansen’s set (some part of it at least) was being shown then I’d likely purchase my first flight for a coin show.

    We've actually done a few displays of sets at recent national shows. Our next planned display will be at the DLRC Booth at the ANA World's Fair of Money in Pittsburgh. At last year's ANA in Chicago, we displayed the #1 rated Proof Trade Dollar Set including the finest known 1884 and 1885 Proof issues.

    Finest graded

  • PerfectionPerfection Posts: 180 ✭✭✭

    One reason a person has multiple sets or partial sets (myself 2-3). is that over the years we upgrade or find better eye appeal coins. We either sell the dupes or keep them and they can lead to another set. For example I have about 20 Proof Morgan dupes.
    For most part they are amazing for eye appeal. Many are better looking than what are in my two sets but they grade lower. I could look for the seven I need for set three but I don't.
    DLH seems to add to the dupes to make more sets.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,105 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice coins.

    Surprising to me to see how far removed the APR's are from the PCGS Price guide values

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 13,461 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    Nice coins.

    Surprising to me to see how far removed the APR's are from the PCGS Price guide values

    Or is it the other way around? 😉

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bravo to the above post! B)

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll 2nd that!

    @topstuf said:
    Bravo to the above post! B)

  • DelawareDoonsDelawareDoons Posts: 3,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As much as I appreciate the thrill of the hunt, I do not agree with crossing/cracking out high end fatties for the sake of uniformity.

    "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."

  • jerseycat101jerseycat101 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That 67+ Peace is amazing.

  • 1987WheatCent1987WheatCent Posts: 31
    edited January 31, 2020 6:21AM

    I find DL's pursuit to be quite vain, to be honest. To spend this much money on a coin collection, only to flaunt it in a popular coin forum, is questionable to me. He is not furthering the numismatic community with his egotistical pursuit, and instead is just using this as a means to get more famous. Hopefully I am wrong, but these are my humble thoughts on the matter.

  • 1987WheatCent1987WheatCent Posts: 31
    edited January 31, 2020 6:43AM

    @Gazes said:

    @1987WheatCent said:
    I find DL's pursuit to be quite vain, to be honest. To spend this much money on a coin collection, only to flaunt it in a popular coin forum, is questionable to me. He is not furthering the numismatic community with his egotistical pursuit, and instead is just using this as a means to get more famous. Hopefully I am wrong, but these are my humble thoughts on the matter.

    Couldn't disagree more. First of all he does not "flaunt" it in this forum---in fact he rarely posts on this forum. He does use the registry just like thousands of other collectors. Honestly, I would hate if Mr. Hansen was buying all these coins secretly and the collecting community had no idea where they were, who had them, etc. In fact, but for the registry there are some coins we would never know existed except for Mr. Hansen's openness.

    Thank you for your thoughts, @Gazes . While I understand your point of view, I disagree. Think of it like this - wouldn't we all love to live in a world where people climbed Everest for the challenge of it, and did not proceed to post about it online or tell anyone about it? This is akin to that situation; it would be best if people did not pursue such vain endeavors.

  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭

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