How does a coin (the aforementioned proof 006 error) that has an obvious flaw get a 70?
I'm still waiting for my copy of the Pro Red Book. No one has posted that they've received their copy yet so I guess we're all in the same boat. I just want to see how much space was
dedicated to showcase these errors. It will be interesting to see the photography chosen also.
Just thought I'd share this pic of an error I can't identify. I found it today while searching a couple of rolls. It's not an 002....It has a similar look to the 008 but it extends further up the
thumb and it almost looks like the 095 but doesn't have the error extending into the field. So, it's somewhere in between all of those. I'll wait for your thoughts. Back to searching...
The best comparison is on the 2009-D satin finish Wddr-005 but this is a P mint coin....anyone????
Onedoll, that 006 was a PR66, not 70. Pitboss has the PR69, but even so it's not about the "error" but quality of strike for grading.
Don't have a clue about your other find. See if Wexler has idea?
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Akbeez...yeah, I guess I misread the post. Not a 70. I might have to send this other one to John Wexler and see what he thinks. I've only found one out of about six rolls so far. There is
nothing on Wexler's site that I can find that is exactly like it. Thanks for looking at it but I can see that you also can't identify it and I know you've looked and cataloged thousands of these
Papi, the doubling is raised metal just like the rest of the listed errors and there is no other doubling on the coin so I don't think it's strike doubling. I hope my pics adequately show that.
It's got to be sent in for evaluation to be sure. In the meantime I'll just go digging for more and let you know if I find another. It's a mystery coin at this point. Any other
It will be great to see some of these 2009 FY DDR Cents mentioned in the just released 2014 Professional Redbook !! Many people will become familiar with these very collectable varieties due to this well respected coin book. Thanks Whitman and Dennis for all of your work. Mark.
Thank you for the heads-up Pitboss. The four 2009 P F.Y. DDR Cents illustrated in the new Professional Redbook will be thought of as the "Best of the Best 2009 FY Cent Errors" among collectors and aggressive dealers. The coins have been available for more than 4 years and now the cent and variety and error collectors will want an example of each. If pricing remains reasonable and a handful of hoaders let the coins find their real value in the marketplace (Ebay, etc), then we are going to witness a broad interest in these errors. They are much more than some "Two-Bit" promoted error coin IMHO. Mark.
<< <i>My red book has arrived and there are 4 of the 2009 P coins pictured in there. The WDDR 002, WDDR 006, WDDR 025, and the WDDR 043.
On pricing there is a footnote: Several varieties exist with minor doubling. Their values vary and their market is not firmly established.
There it is guys, will it be enough to get things started? >>
?? WHAT ??
I am appalled that the WDDR-001 (6th finger) was not included. This is one of the more pronounced/visual varieties and I can't believe it was passed. Shame on the Red Book, they didn't listen.
The 025 and 043 are decent, but the 001 should have been included since it is one of the most visual varieties and found in many of the mint box sets.
BOOOOO
But glad the Redbook at least recognized some of the varieties (kudos here). I hope they come to reality and include these in their next annual regular Redbook edition.
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I am appalled that the WDDR-001 (6th finger) was not included. This is one of the more pronounced/visual varieties and I can't believe it was passed. Shame on the Red Book, they didn't listen.
BOOOOO
But glad the Redbook at least recognized some of the varieties (kudos here). >>
I also thank Dennis for including these in the book. But I also wish more research was done regarding the selections.
3 of the top 4 varieties, of the series, are found in MINT packaged products. Akbeez is correct, WDDR-001 should have been there, not 025.
001025
We all know TC has made the 043 widely available through Ebay sales. His mass release has made this significant variety widely available and affordable. It's also a toss up for me between 043, and 051. What do you think?
043051
So, do I understand correctly, no values were given?
I also don't understand the need to diminish the significance by making mention that "Several varieties exist with minor doubling" It suggests that they all fall into a "minor" category.
IMHO, I would have noted "Other varieties exist with varying degrees of doubling; their values vary"
The 001 is a much nicer coin than the 002 in my opinion but there are many more of the 002 available and they can be purchased cheaper than the 001 so it may make them more affordable to people getting started collecting these coins.
I do not have a problem with the other 3 selections as I really like all of them.
The 001 is a much nicer coin than the 002 in my opinion but there are many more of the 002 available and they can be purchased cheaper than the 001 so it may make them more affordable to people getting started collecting these coins.
I do not have a problem with the other 3 selections as I really like all of them. >>
The lack of values is unfortunate to say the least! A simple search of graded examples in Ebay "Sold" listings would have given a publishable range.
Anyway, the 002 has the doubling on the top of the book; a clear example of extreme doubled die rotation. The perfect reason to include it in a "Professional" book.
As much lobbying as we did with Dennis before the final four were chosen I'm a little surprised the 001 didn't make it. The wording of "many other minor varieties exist", with an emphasis
on "minor" does not sit well with me either. The "varying values" is too vague a statement and misrepresents some of the more rare errors that aren't specifically featured like the 001, 014,
016, 032, 050, 051, and 062. I'm sure there are others that could be deemed "significant" rather than "minor" varieties due to the actual error but, more importantly, scarcity / rarity.
Of course we do still want to thank Dennis and Whitman for taking a large step forward in highlighting their existence on a "professional" collector's level. Does PCGS or NGC start to label
these now that they've made it into the RedBook as more than just a footnote or do we still have to wait for the CPG?
I have no issue with the chosen 4, and agree with PB that the 002 is the most common and most likely to be found to someone's delight. It's like collecting Wheaties as a kid -- most were not of any great value, but it was thrilling just to find one (especially pre-40's; Yes, I was a child of the 60's). Good point too Papi that it is a cool example of some crazy die weirdness.
But I would rank the 001 as having the #2 coolness factor of the entire group, albeit 006 is WAY in the lead at #1.
As for prices, I have never owned the Prof Red Book, is it normal for them to post values on most of the coins? I know in there are often blanks in the Red Book on newer coins that market values have not had enough time to be established. Can't argue with that. But, since these are 4 years old, and market pricing has been established somewhat, it's a case of lack of confidence or royal jewels to take an educated WAG. Isn't that what the Red Book is for?
Gosh, even Wexler stuck his neck out at the time of attribution to WAG a value, and his were pretty much right on in terms of value "class" (little, some, high, and of course, "best of").
All this being said, it's still a bold and new move for the Red Book to recognize these and lead the way for the series. Thanks again Dentuck for listening. There is always room for improvement!
AK
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<< <i>But, since these are 4 years old, and market pricing has been established somewhat, it's a case of lack of confidence or royal jewels to take an educated WAG. Isn't that what the Red Book is for?
Gosh, even Wexler stuck his neck out at the time of attribution to WAG a value, and his were pretty much right on in terms of value "class" (little, some, high, and of course, "best of"). >>
If a coin needs a WAG, by definition its "market is not yet firmly established."
If you're reading this and you do consider a particular variety's retail market values to be firmly established, please fill out its values in these grades:
Variety Name... MS-63RB... MS-65RD... MS-66RD... MS-67RD... MS-68RD... MS-69RD... Variety A Variety B Variety C Variety D Variety E Variety F
But, since PCGS & NGC decline to slab these without a printed reference (CPG), we'd be assigning values based on a single grading source. Would that be right?
Dennis, how are published values assigned to other MS coins?
I think there is a certain amount of WAG'ing in any value listing unless there is a lonnnnggg history of sales.
For these, the best we could do is use the last few years of eBay sales in ungraded condition. Those averaged numbers could easily fill the slots of MS63-65 since most of these are sold uncirculated. For those that have been graded by the one TPG, one could make comparisons of other coins that have been graded by multiple services and price-adjust accordingly. This is done commonly in retail, and could be called a "comp-based estimate", AKA an "educated WAG".
I'm sure there are better definitions of this process out there...
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Variety A. WDDR 001 MS65 $30.00 MS66 $48.00 UNGRADED $5 AND $10 MS67 $70.00
Variety B WDDR 002 MS65 $18.00 MS66 $30.00 UNGRADED $2 and $8 MS67 $40.00
Variety C WDDR 006 MS65 $50.00 MS66 $66.00 UNGRADED are going for between $10 and $16 MS67 $80.00
Variety D WDDR 025 MS65 $30.00 MS66 $39.00 UNGRADED $4 and $10 MS67 $53.00
Variety E WDDR 043 MS65 $28.00 MS66 $35.00 UNGRADED $4 and $10 MS67 $46.00
Those are an average of the graded coins I have sold but it is only 5 or 6 of each so it's a small sample. The ungraded coins vary greatly. It is just what someone is willing to pay when they see them. That's the best I can do.
It's hard to believe PB that not one 68 out of all those slabbed. I know you cherry picked all that you sent in. I wonder if the errors themselves caused a reduction in grade.
On another subject...Does anyone know if the wddr-086's have been found in combination with the wddo-002? I have found (I can hear Papi now "it's hub doubling or machine doubling!")
what appears to be the obverse doubling of the 002.
<< <i>What's the wholesale market like for these varieties at this point? >>
Ha thats rich. I can't think of one dealer who participates in a two way market for these let alone sets a buy price and does wholesale. I am also not so sure about those "values" that were susgested eailer either, from the outside looking in it appears that the majority of transactions can be accounted by a few hoarders buying off each other off of eBay.
Granted that in of its self is a better market than many random issues have but there currently isn't any dealer buy in the niche for marketing.
We have been in the process of establishing a market for these coins. Collectors like some of these coins but what has dragged the market is all the very minor varieties that are out there. I myself do not even save them anymore as I feel they are just junk and not worth saving. On the other hand there are some great varieties of this error that are doing well in the market place.
WDDR 006 Best of the best. I was buying them at $10 each but you can not find them at this price anymore. Been selling at $15.95.
WDDR 001 Selling wholesale at $5 each.
WDDR 025 Selling wholesale at $4 to $5 each.
WDDR 043 Selling wholesale at $3 to $5 each.
WDDR 002 Selling wholesale at $1 to $3 each.
WDDR 032 Selling wholesale at $2 each.
There are a few other varieties that I do not even sell like the 014,016,051 that are nice coins but I do not have them in bulk to sell.
These are all raw uncirculated coins!
The graded one sell for much more.
There is a limited market out there right now and as collectors start to learn about them it should increase.
These are very interesting coin varieties with a four year track record. It appears that few "Good Dated" Mint LP2 boxes appear on Ebay anymore and they are snatched up immediately. There are a few very informed buyers/sellers who know pretty much what is inside each dated, unopened LP2 Mint Box. Their wants are very specific and they will pay high prices to get the coins inside if necessary. The same is true of the "Unopened, dated $25 face bank boxes" that show up less and less on Ebay. Those diligent buyers of these coins know what box date codes, etc are worth buying at high prices. Ebay "IS" the marketplace currently for these up and coming collectable coins. Those few who stayed with the program all these years and have bought and sold on Ebay and sold to individuals outside of Ebay have established a buy/sell exchange. I think that a well known coin marketer with a reasonable amount of capital could secure several of the "Magnificent Seven" CPG Varieties and make a solid market outside of Ebay especially with the introduction of some of these errors in the 2014 Professional Redbook. Thank you, Dennis and others. There are many more collectors of modern cents than say the remaining Statehood Quarters collectors. I trust that these DDR's will be recognized by PCGS/NGC and not zoom up in price for high grade coins like the Wisconsin Extra Leaf Quarters just to stubble and fall as the Extra Leaf coins have done since 2004. They will come back in fashion once people start serious modern quarter collections. Mark.
We're probably a CPG away from having a "wholesale" market on these Dennis. Crypto is right that mostly hoarders are buying the bulk of the "hot" lp2 boxes, bank boxes, and raw 50
error coin rolls to build and round out their personal collections with errors they haven't been lucky enough to find on their own. That's not enough to establish wholesale values. Pitboss has
a record of retail on graded varieties that he listed. That's something to go on regarding trends. I think the audience (+additional hoarders) is widening as word gets out on these though as
evidenced in the competition (trigger fingers) on Ebay alone when something good presents itself. Eventually more of the larger dealers will see a market for them and react to it. Of
course as has been said, over and over again, until all of the major TPG's and publications move toward mainstream recognition and promotion they're going to inch their way up value wise.
However long it takes, it takes. I personally will always be a 2009p Lincoln Formative Doubled Die-Hard!
Just saying You guys, a wholesale market is established on the buy side not sale side. Just picking random lower numbers isn't a wholesale market. When dealers start buying and trading these amoung themselves with confidence that they can sell at retail or pass them on with points: that is a wholesale market. A two way market exists when dealer are buyers not just collectors. One can always find people to sell you stuff but it is when the big boys bring cash to the table is when you know you have something. If hotel buyer won't touch it at any price, you have pocket change be they Ike's, centennial quarters, clad foreign-you get the point.
If you took any of these in any quantity big or small through the large national shows, I doubt one could solicit offers above maybe a few cents each and maybe a buck for the certfyied examples. Even those offers would be rare and based off of swags and curiosity mixed with limited downside seeing that chips cost $3 at these shows. You guys talk about getting them in books, registries, TPG and what not is your key to popularity but it works the other way around. Popularity is the key to getting them into books, registries and holders. Your group was enough enthusiasm to get it in a reference book, you should be proud but this clamoring for fame comes off as desperate. Enjoy your niche and don't worry about what others think about them.
<< <i>You guys talk about getting them in books, registries, TPG and what not, is your key to popularity; but it works the other way around. >>
I somewhat disagree. Without TPG, namely PCGS recognition, do you really think the 2005D "Speared Bison" would be anything other than what it is, a die gouge?
No sooner did it appear in Coin World, PCGS slabbed it; no prolonged market/popularity analysis.
Whether or not it was a good/bad decision, the slabs still hold value because of TPG recognition.
They're just "pennies" and, "not worth a bag of chips"? Yes, but now they are featured in the Pro RedBook and next they will be featured in the upcoming CPG (some have already been
assigned CPG numbers). Once the new CPG officially marks them as special varieties, PCGS and NGC will begin to label the various errors on their slabs. These are the building blocks
that are necessary to complete their place as a true numismatic historical set of varieties. It is a niche group, I agree, and this group has been the driving force for recognition. It's been
a long hard uphill battle to gain what we have to this point and to widen the appeal to others on this forum. Don't think we aren't aware of the forces that have tried to poo poo these
varieties. The established "classic" coin and die varieties folks, for whatever the reason, just haven't taken a shine to them...YET. I suspect because they aren't a hugely profitable item
at this time. The point being that the uphill battle is slowly but surely going to be won by the persistence of the "doubled die-hards" and uniqueness/rarity of some of these errors that the
general collecting public will be made fully aware of once the publications and grading companies do acknowledge them on the larger scale. These are worth more than a bag of chips in
my opinion...and they're less fattening.
P.S. last night an Ebay auction ended for ten lp2 boxes for about $150. Only five of the boxes (by date and time) will yield any significant errors (the 13D die crack variety) so the buyer
basically paid $30 per true error box. They will find approximately 5 total (maybe less) in each box which puts their value at about $6 ea. wholesale. The most recent raw sample sold
for an amazing retail price of $40. (I think it was a Dengarsen listing) Not a bad little profit for a raw coin without any real support in the general coin collecting community.
I'm just a doubled die-hard........keep the faith!
<< <i> P.S. last night an Ebay auction ended for ten lp2 boxes for about $150. Only five of the boxes (by date and time) will yield any significant errors (the 13D die crack variety) so the buyer
basically paid $30 per true error box. They will find approximately 5 total (maybe less) in each box which puts their value at about $6 ea. wholesale. The most recent raw sample sold
for an amazing retail price of $40. (I think it was a Dengarsen listing) Not a bad little profit for a raw coin without any real support in the general coin collecting community.
I'm just a doubled die-hard........keep the faith! >>
there are so many incorrect and optimistic assumptions I don't know where to start. But I feel inclined to inform you that is not an example of a wolesale market.
If my memory serves correct, one of the big TV sellers (Coin Vault?) managed to sell several hundred slabbed wddr-002's a few years or so ago for crazy prices (like $49.99). They went quick and I couldn't figure out why that didn't replay itself.
And -- I was surprised to see that group of 10 boxes go for $150 last night (I bet the buyer is lurking on this site, fess up!). There is definitely interest out there.
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<< <i>If my memory serves correct, one of the big TV sellers (Coin Vault?) managed to sell several hundred slabbed wddr-002's a few years or so ago for crazy prices (like $49.99). They went quick and I couldn't figure out why that didn't replay itself.
And -- I was surprised to see that group of 10 boxes go for $150 last night (I bet the buyer is lurking on this site, fess up!). There is definitely interest out there. >>
Coin vault sellers gold plated state quarter sets for 150$, does that make them worth that?
Whoever that was that paid $148 for those 10 boxes had better read back on this forum to find out what to bid on in the future because he sure does not know what boxes to bid on now.
I will throw my Two-Bits into to this discussion. What is a market (wholesale/retail) for a coin which is basically worth only face value or one cent in this case? Based on what most of us 2009 P F.Y. Cent DDR observers already know, the major examples do sell today and have for several years on Ebay. They maybe offered as a single coin, a group or even a solid roll of a particular variety; but they do sell occasionally to many different people. Are all buyers of the coins on Ebay money-grubbing manipulators waiting to cash in like corporate raiders? Far from it. Put a solid roll of WDDR #006 Cents on Ebay and just see this F.Y. market at its best. It would surprise you !! IMHO, the market volume on Ebay is pretty thin because there is really so little quantity of favored Top DDR's available. I don't think that the market would be sunk if all the present day accumulations of the CPG varieties were "dumped" on Ebay. Many people (collectors, small dealers) would soak them up in no time. All that has been lacking has been the rightful recognition of these neat coins to the coin collecting world. Whitman Publishing has been very helpful in that regard. Let more people learn about the varieties, let the CPG publish the "Best of Variety" ones, let PCGS/NGC finally provide their blessings and then you will/should experience a much better defined buy/sell wholesale/retail marketplace that many more will participate in. Think of how wide spread the USM'S two roll LP2 boxes are since they were offered in 2009. Inside those boxes are WDDR #001, WDDR #002 and the star variety: WDDR #006. You know that there are rolls and even some $25 bank boxes still to be searched. As the saying goes ... "Folks, You Haven't Seen Anything Yet " !!!!!
Thanks for your input Mark, I agree with you completely but the supply of good boxes is drying up fast.
I have gone through hundreds of LP2 boxes and probably in the range of 100 to 200 bank boxes to date.
I should have listened to Papi years ago but I did not start the bank boxes until about a year and a half ago because I could not see myself going through 2500 pennies looking for errors.
Now almost all the boxes that contain errors are gone and all that is left is late in the run boxes that contain zilch.
I have had to resort to trading off some of the good coins I was lucky enough to find to get what I did not find myself.
I will not complain though as I have a good supply of all the major errors and have sold off all my minor errors at this point.
The reality is finally hitting home that most of the good LP2 and bank boxes have disappeared so hopefully the prices of the good ones will start to go up.
Right now there are so many of the minor varieties on ebay it is hard to even see the few good one that are out there.
I was outbid on that box but won the box the same seller had earlier in the day for far less. There are quite a few bank boxes available now on eBay at decent prices but a reliable source sez they are not of good origin...
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Comments
I'm still waiting for my copy of the Pro Red Book. No one has posted that they've received their copy yet so I guess we're all in the same boat. I just want to see how much space was
dedicated to showcase these errors. It will be interesting to see the photography chosen also.
Just thought I'd share this pic of an error I can't identify. I found it today while searching a couple of rolls. It's not an 002....It has a similar look to the 008 but it extends further up the
thumb and it almost looks like the 095 but doesn't have the error extending into the field. So, it's somewhere in between all of those. I'll wait for your thoughts. Back to searching...
The best comparison is on the 2009-D satin finish Wddr-005 but this is a P mint coin....anyone????
Don't have a clue about your other find. See if Wexler has idea?
nothing on Wexler's site that I can find that is exactly like it. Thanks for looking at it but I can see that you also can't identify it and I know you've looked and cataloged thousands of these
as many of us have.
<< <i> I've only found one out of about six rolls so far. >>
Then it's most likely strike, or ejection doubling. I think I see evidence on the hand also.
IMO no die variety. Good to see you're still searching.
It's got to be sent in for evaluation to be sure. In the meantime I'll just go digging for more and let you know if I find another. It's a mystery coin at this point. Any other
theories/comments?
<< <i>Papi, the doubling is raised metal just like the rest of the listed errors >>
Still looks like "shelf doubling" to me. Good luck
On pricing there is a footnote:
Several varieties exist with minor doubling. Their values vary and their market is not firmly established.
There it is guys, will it be enough to get things started?
<< <i>My red book has arrived and there are 4 of the 2009 P coins pictured in there. The WDDR 002, WDDR 006, WDDR 025, and the WDDR 043.
On pricing there is a footnote:
Several varieties exist with minor doubling. Their values vary and their market is not firmly established.
There it is guys, will it be enough to get things started? >>
The market is over 3 years old. Don't expect much to change. Only a cpg inclusion would move these due to inclusion in modern PCGS registry sets.
<< <i>My red book has arrived and there are 4 of the 2009 P coins pictured in there. The WDDR 002, WDDR 006, WDDR 025, and the WDDR 043.
On pricing there is a footnote:
Several varieties exist with minor doubling. Their values vary and their market is not firmly established.
There it is guys, will it be enough to get things started? >>
?? WHAT ??
I am appalled that the WDDR-001 (6th finger) was not included. This is one of the more pronounced/visual varieties and I can't believe it was passed. Shame on the Red Book, they didn't listen.
The 025 and 043 are decent, but the 001 should have been included since it is one of the most visual varieties and found in many of the mint box sets.
BOOOOO
But glad the Redbook at least recognized some of the varieties (kudos here). I hope they come to reality and include these in their next annual regular Redbook edition.
<< <i> ?? WHAT ??
I am appalled that the WDDR-001 (6th finger) was not included. This is one of the more pronounced/visual varieties and I can't believe it was passed. Shame on the Red Book, they didn't listen.
BOOOOO
But glad the Redbook at least recognized some of the varieties (kudos here). >>
I also thank Dennis for including these in the book. But I also wish more research was done regarding the selections.
3 of the top 4 varieties, of the series, are found in MINT packaged products. Akbeez is correct, WDDR-001 should have been there, not 025.
001
We all know TC has made the 043 widely available through Ebay sales. His mass release has made this significant variety widely available and affordable.
It's also a toss up for me between 043, and 051. What do you think?
043
So, do I understand correctly, no values were given?
I also don't understand the need to diminish the significance by making mention that "Several varieties exist with minor doubling" It suggests that they all fall into a "minor" category.
IMHO, I would have noted "Other varieties exist with varying degrees of doubling; their values vary"
The 001 is a much nicer coin than the 002 in my opinion but there are many more of the 002 available and they can be purchased cheaper than the 001 so it may make them more affordable to people getting started collecting these coins.
I do not have a problem with the other 3 selections as I really like all of them.
<< <i>That is correct, no values were given.
The 001 is a much nicer coin than the 002 in my opinion but there are many more of the 002 available and they can be purchased cheaper than the 001 so it may make them more affordable to people getting started collecting these coins.
I do not have a problem with the other 3 selections as I really like all of them. >>
The lack of values is unfortunate to say the least! A simple search of graded examples in Ebay "Sold" listings would have given a publishable range.
Anyway, the 002 has the doubling on the top of the book; a clear example of extreme doubled die rotation. The perfect reason to include it in a "Professional" book.
on "minor" does not sit well with me either. The "varying values" is too vague a statement and misrepresents some of the more rare errors that aren't specifically featured like the 001, 014,
016, 032, 050, 051, and 062. I'm sure there are others that could be deemed "significant" rather than "minor" varieties due to the actual error but, more importantly, scarcity / rarity.
Of course we do still want to thank Dennis and Whitman for taking a large step forward in highlighting their existence on a "professional" collector's level. Does PCGS or NGC start to label
these now that they've made it into the RedBook as more than just a footnote or do we still have to wait for the CPG?
<< <i> The "varying values" is too vague a statement and misrepresents some of the more rare errors >>
I agree and stand corrected. I'd change my footnote to read
"Other varieties exist; their values based on scarcity and degree of doubling"
Unfortunately PCGS has categorically stated no attributions for these, even though they've been assigned CPG numbers, without an actual publication.
Any hope of that Dennis?
I have no issue with the chosen 4, and agree with PB that the 002 is the most common and most likely to be found to someone's delight. It's like collecting Wheaties as a kid -- most were not of any great value, but it was thrilling just to find one (especially pre-40's; Yes, I was a child of the 60's). Good point too Papi that it is a cool example of some crazy die weirdness.
But I would rank the 001 as having the #2 coolness factor of the entire group, albeit 006 is WAY in the lead at #1.
As for prices, I have never owned the Prof Red Book, is it normal for them to post values on most of the coins? I know in there are often blanks in the Red Book on newer coins that market values have not had enough time to be established. Can't argue with that. But, since these are 4 years old, and market pricing has been established somewhat, it's a case of lack of confidence or royal jewels to take an educated WAG. Isn't that what the Red Book is for?
Gosh, even Wexler stuck his neck out at the time of attribution to WAG a value, and his were pretty much right on in terms of value "class" (little, some, high, and of course, "best of").
All this being said, it's still a bold and new move for the Red Book to recognize these and lead the way for the series. Thanks again Dentuck for listening. There is always room for improvement!
AK
<< <i>But, since these are 4 years old, and market pricing has been established somewhat, it's a case of lack of confidence or royal jewels to take an educated WAG. Isn't that what the Red Book is for?
Gosh, even Wexler stuck his neck out at the time of attribution to WAG a value, and his were pretty much right on in terms of value "class" (little, some, high, and of course, "best of"). >>
What's a WAG ?
If you're reading this and you do consider a particular variety's retail market
values to be firmly established, please fill out its values in these grades:
Variety Name... MS-63RB... MS-65RD... MS-66RD... MS-67RD... MS-68RD... MS-69RD...
Variety A
Variety B
Variety C
Variety D
Variety E
Variety F
I suppose an analysis of sold listings on Ebay?
But, since PCGS & NGC decline to slab these without a printed reference (CPG), we'd be assigning values based on a single grading source. Would that be right?
Dennis, how are published values assigned to other MS coins?
For these, the best we could do is use the last few years of eBay sales in ungraded condition. Those averaged numbers could easily fill the slots of MS63-65 since most of these are sold uncirculated. For those that have been graded by the one TPG, one could make comparisons of other coins that have been graded by multiple services and price-adjust accordingly. This is done commonly in retail, and could be called a "comp-based estimate", AKA an "educated WAG".
I'm sure there are better definitions of this process out there...
MS66 $48.00 UNGRADED $5 AND $10
MS67 $70.00
Variety B WDDR 002 MS65 $18.00
MS66 $30.00 UNGRADED $2 and $8
MS67 $40.00
Variety C WDDR 006 MS65 $50.00
MS66 $66.00 UNGRADED are going for between $10 and $16
MS67 $80.00
Variety D WDDR 025 MS65 $30.00
MS66 $39.00 UNGRADED $4 and $10
MS67 $53.00
Variety E WDDR 043 MS65 $28.00
MS66 $35.00 UNGRADED $4 and $10
MS67 $46.00
Those are an average of the graded coins I have sold but it is only 5 or 6 of each so it's a small sample.
The ungraded coins vary greatly. It is just what someone is willing to pay when they see them.
That's the best I can do.
<< <i>Variety D
WDDR 025
MS65 $30.00
MS66 $39.00
MS69 $53.00 >>
69 Is that a typo ?
By the way PB, those are some impressive numbers. Thanks for sharing!!
I have had 350 graded so far and nothing higher than a 67.
On another subject...Does anyone know if the wddr-086's have been found in combination with the wddo-002? I have found (I can hear Papi now "it's hub doubling or machine doubling!")
what appears to be the obverse doubling of the 002.
<< <i>What's the wholesale market like for these varieties at this point? >>
Ha thats rich. I can't think of one dealer who participates in a two way market for these let alone sets a buy price and does wholesale. I am also not so sure about those "values" that were susgested eailer either, from the outside looking in it appears that the majority of transactions can be accounted by a few hoarders buying off each other off of eBay.
Granted that in of its self is a better market than many random issues have but there currently isn't any dealer buy in the niche for marketing.
WDDR 006 Best of the best. I was buying them at $10 each but you can not find them at this price anymore. Been selling at $15.95.
WDDR 001 Selling wholesale at $5 each.
WDDR 025 Selling wholesale at $4 to $5 each.
WDDR 043 Selling wholesale at $3 to $5 each.
WDDR 002 Selling wholesale at $1 to $3 each.
WDDR 032 Selling wholesale at $2 each.
There are a few other varieties that I do not even sell like the 014,016,051 that are nice coins but I do not have them in bulk to sell.
These are all raw uncirculated coins!
The graded one sell for much more.
There is a limited market out there right now and as collectors start to learn about them it should increase.
error coin rolls to build and round out their personal collections with errors they haven't been lucky enough to find on their own. That's not enough to establish wholesale values. Pitboss has
a record of retail on graded varieties that he listed. That's something to go on regarding trends. I think the audience (+additional hoarders) is widening as word gets out on these though as
evidenced in the competition (trigger fingers) on Ebay alone when something good presents itself. Eventually more of the larger dealers will see a market for them and react to it. Of
course as has been said, over and over again, until all of the major TPG's and publications move toward mainstream recognition and promotion they're going to inch their way up value wise.
However long it takes, it takes. I personally will always be a 2009p Lincoln Formative Doubled Die-Hard!
If you took any of these in any quantity big or small through the large national shows, I doubt one could solicit offers above maybe a few cents each and maybe a buck for the certfyied examples. Even those offers would be rare and based off of swags and curiosity mixed with limited downside seeing that chips cost $3 at these shows. You guys talk about getting them in books, registries, TPG and what not is your key to popularity but it works the other way around. Popularity is the key to getting them into books, registries and holders. Your group was enough enthusiasm to get it in a reference book, you should be proud but this clamoring for fame comes off as desperate. Enjoy your niche and don't worry about what others think about them.
<< <i>You guys talk about getting them in books, registries, TPG and what not, is your key to popularity; but it works the other way around. >>
I somewhat disagree. Without TPG, namely PCGS recognition, do you really think the 2005D "Speared Bison" would be anything other than what it is, a die gouge?
No sooner did it appear in Coin World, PCGS slabbed it; no prolonged market/popularity analysis.
Whether or not it was a good/bad decision, the slabs still hold value because of TPG recognition.
assigned CPG numbers). Once the new CPG officially marks them as special varieties, PCGS and NGC will begin to label the various errors on their slabs. These are the building blocks
that are necessary to complete their place as a true numismatic historical set of varieties. It is a niche group, I agree, and this group has been the driving force for recognition. It's been
a long hard uphill battle to gain what we have to this point and to widen the appeal to others on this forum. Don't think we aren't aware of the forces that have tried to poo poo these
varieties. The established "classic" coin and die varieties folks, for whatever the reason, just haven't taken a shine to them...YET. I suspect because they aren't a hugely profitable item
at this time. The point being that the uphill battle is slowly but surely going to be won by the persistence of the "doubled die-hards" and uniqueness/rarity of some of these errors that the
general collecting public will be made fully aware of once the publications and grading companies do acknowledge them on the larger scale. These are worth more than a bag of chips in
my opinion...and they're less fattening.
P.S. last night an Ebay auction ended for ten lp2 boxes for about $150. Only five of the boxes (by date and time) will yield any significant errors (the 13D die crack variety) so the buyer
basically paid $30 per true error box. They will find approximately 5 total (maybe less) in each box which puts their value at about $6 ea. wholesale. The most recent raw sample sold
for an amazing retail price of $40. (I think it was a Dengarsen listing) Not a bad little profit for a raw coin without any real support in the general coin collecting community.
I'm just a doubled die-hard....
<< <i>
P.S. last night an Ebay auction ended for ten lp2 boxes for about $150. Only five of the boxes (by date and time) will yield any significant errors (the 13D die crack variety) so the buyer
basically paid $30 per true error box. They will find approximately 5 total (maybe less) in each box which puts their value at about $6 ea. wholesale. The most recent raw sample sold
for an amazing retail price of $40. (I think it was a Dengarsen listing) Not a bad little profit for a raw coin without any real support in the general coin collecting community.
I'm just a doubled die-hard....
And -- I was surprised to see that group of 10 boxes go for $150 last night (I bet the buyer is lurking on this site, fess up!). There is definitely interest out there.
<< <i>If my memory serves correct, one of the big TV sellers (Coin Vault?) managed to sell several hundred slabbed wddr-002's a few years or so ago for crazy prices (like $49.99). They went quick and I couldn't figure out why that didn't replay itself.
And -- I was surprised to see that group of 10 boxes go for $150 last night (I bet the buyer is lurking on this site, fess up!). There is definitely interest out there. >>
Coin vault sellers gold plated state quarter sets for 150$, does that make them worth that?
<< <i>Coin vault sellers gold plated state quarter sets for 150$, does that make them worth that? >>
Does a PCGS slab make a "Speared Bison" worth $200? Does it validate a normally worthless gouge as a collectible? Apparently yes.
An example
Does it create a market? I'm just sayin'
I have gone through hundreds of LP2 boxes and probably in the range of 100 to 200 bank boxes to date.
I should have listened to Papi years ago but I did not start the bank boxes until about a year and a half ago because I could not see myself going through 2500 pennies looking for errors.
Now almost all the boxes that contain errors are gone and all that is left is late in the run boxes that contain zilch.
I have had to resort to trading off some of the good coins I was lucky enough to find to get what I did not find myself.
I will not complain though as I have a good supply of all the major errors and have sold off all my minor errors at this point.
Like this
These sets obviously won't produce any of the good ones, but the sets sell. The good dates are few and far between now.
Who bought the bank boxes yesterday?
LP2
Right now there are so many of the minor varieties on ebay it is hard to even see the few good one that are out there.
LP2 >>
I was outbid on that box but won the box the same seller had earlier in the day for far less. There are quite a few bank boxes available now on eBay at decent prices but a reliable source sez they are not of good origin...
Tell me that they are not a hot item. I have sold 43 of them in the past week.
Time to raise my prices I guess.
<< <i>The only 006's available for sale right now on ebay are the graded ones that I have for sale.
Tell me that they are not a hot item. I have sold 43 of them in the past week.
Time to raise my prices I guess. >>
43 ?? You GO PB !!
When first discovered the Skeletons sold raw for around $50. I think the ones with the cracks still retain that value. Interest is rising!!
How can the poo-poo'ers not consider this a MAJOR die error? Obverse & Reverse, no less !!!
His Majesty The King
<< <i>Papi, you deserve the honor of 1700 posts, go for it. >>
There are many more scholarly than me. I just love all Lincoln varieties.
Congrats to ALL of YOU for your dedication, insight, and study of these in particular