<< <i>1000---Thank you all for this great conversation! ok, back to collecting and searching. Papi, let's assume there were another 40,000 put into boxes...by your math that's just around 100,000 total between mint sets (6 per roll average) and the bank boxes. Thanks for getting your calculator out! >>
That would certainly be an extremely low total for any non-proof die.
Could be wrong, but I think a die needs to pound more then 100k coins before it cracks like the skeleton did.
It does have 5 documented stages of progressive wear.
We do not mind your bold print as I myself have macular degeneration. That is why I have trouble seeing all those different stages. I only found 1 WDDR 006 in bank boxes and it did not have the crack. The red book is finally coming out and it does mention that these coins exist so we are moving in the right direction. WE NEED ALL THE VISABILITY WE CAN GET.
<< <i>My 30 day run over 300,000 estimate is the best I could some up for production span. I can't see more than a few thousand boxes produced in that few hour window however. Let's just say 4 thousand boxes. If there are 1 or 8 in a roll, that could range from 4 to 32 thousand coins. Yes some have none, some more, and this is all an estimate. Are 4 thousand boxes unrealstic? Seems like a big number for a few hours. But the Mint did make 300,000 total, so they certainly have high capacity equipment.
I know too that this variety made it in bank boxes. But those have the progressive die crack and also the full stage of the fatal die crack. Those bank boxes are not shooting fish in a barrell either like the time stamped LP2 boxes. There have not been many found outside of the LP2 4/23 boxes due to the death of the die.
The key is back to the original statement, this die failed quickly. There is no denying it. I have always felt that the Skeleton Finger is the most dramatic visually of the varieties. It is couple with a nice DD on the obverse, as well as the die cracks that not only add interest, but demonstrate scarcity from die failure.. >>
LP2 Sets went on sale on May 14, 2009 at 12 noon
The first LP2 "sales" figures of 200,055 sets was published on May 20 2009.
Boxes from the initial LP2 run were dated from 4/13/09 to 5/06/09. They do not work on Sat/Sun, so there were 18 production days.
Assuming all the sets initially sold were boxed during that time, that would be 11,114 sets per day.
9774 & 9883 (assuming packaging stations/machines #s) = 5,557 each; assuming an 8 hour work day = 695 per hour or 12 sets per minute (all assumptions)
11,114 sets x 50 P cents per set = 555,708 P cents per day
I have found as many as 13 Skeletons in one roll or 26%. So, if we use an average conservative number of 6 per roll that would be 12%.
6% of 555,708 = 33,342 (3 per roll); 8% = 44,457 (4 per roll); 10% = 55,570 (5 per roll); 12% 66,685 (6 per roll)
Of course this is not exact, but it could indicate the possible number of Skeletons that were in LP2 sets. How many in bank boxes??? >>
That is some good analysis Papi, thank you! But isn't your calculation based on a full day? So say 11,114 sets a day (or shoot, that 10,000 estimate I had was pretty good too), but I feel strongly that not a full day's supply had the skeleton fingers, but rather the early morning run to afternoon, and not the later afternoon time stamps. I personally know for a fact, that many boxes from that day (and even the sweet time spots) did not have the error. And I am fine with a 6 a roll estimate as believe it or not, I literally have a round 6 number as an average of my data. But I think we could cut down the number of boxes by a few thousand. What do you think?
Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS
<< <i>That is some good analysis Papi, thank you! But isn't your calculation based on a full day? So say 11,114 sets a day (or shoot, that 10,000 estimate I had was pretty good too), but I feel strongly that not a full day's supply had the skeleton fingers, but rather the early morning run to afternoon, and not the later afternoon time stamps. I personally know for a fact, that many boxes from that day (and even the sweet time spots) did not have the error. And I am fine with a 6 a roll estimate as believe it or not, I literally have a round 6 number as an average of my data. But I think we could cut down the number of boxes by a few thousand. What do you think? >>
I think you are correct.
If we take the estimated number of packages per hour are narrow down the known time stamps of actual boxes, we can arrive at a well educated guess of LP2 quantities.
I also noticed my multiplication was off 11,114*50=555700, not 555708
Ok everyone....let's look at our records and try to determine the earliest time and the latest time of our wddr-006 yielding boxes. I'll go first: earliest; 08:08 / latest; 12:22
I am afraid I am guilty of not recording my times and dates. I do know my last successful box was 13:09 9883 4/23 and it contained 13 WDDR 006. Another one same numbers had nothing in it.
Let me update this: bought 5 boxes all same date time and 9883 number about a month or so ago. 1 box had 13 WDDR 006 and 8 WDDR10 in it. 1 box had 4 WDDR 006 and nothing else 2 boxes had nothing 5th box is unopened and I intend to keep it that way for now. Does not make any sense why so many boxes with the same numbers are so different.
I seem to recall someone saying they got one in a 4/22 box -- likely late timed, but I didn't.
This is classified information that will self-destruct in 15 seconds.
Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS
<< <i>I am afraid I am guilty of not recording my times and dates. I do know my last successful box was 13:09 9883 4/23 and it contained 13 WDDR 006. Another one same numbers had nothing in it. >>
That is interesting
<< <i>Let me update this: bought 5 boxes all same date time and 9883 number about a month or so ago. >>
But that's more interesting. Where did you find 5 boxes to buy a month ago; 1tommy ?
<< <i>I am afraid I am guilty of not recording my times and dates. I do know my last successful box was 13:09 9883 4/23 and it contained 13 WDDR 006. Another one same numbers had nothing in it. >>
That is interesting
<< <i>Let me update this: bought 5 boxes all same date time and 9883 number about a month or so ago. >>
But that's more interesting. Where did you find 5 boxes to buy a month ago; 1tommy ? >>
I seem to recall someone saying they got one in a 4/22 box -- likely late timed, but I didn't.
This is classified information that will self-destruct in 15 seconds. >>
I concur. My sweet spot was in the 9 am range. And like I and others have said, even then there were goose eggs at times and no skeletons. >>
So, we're looking at approximately 5 hours
5*695*50=173,750 Philadelphia cents
Avg of 6 per set = 20,850 Skeletons in LP2 Boxes
That's a really really really small number >>
That is what I have been saying from day one!
That is a small number despite them being captive and found in identifiable boxes. The "wild ones" found in bank boxes don't concern me too much considering those were made for circulation and also from the short die life. That number can't be pinpointed as well, but like I said, they are out in circulation for the most part.
These skeleton finger are special. I am not saying others agree or will care, but I just love how the most dramatic variety can also be considered scarce with a decent level of certainty.
You've all provided valuable insights to the mintage of my FAVORITE ddr, so thank you for that. I'm actually surprised it could be in the 21k range of minting (high), but there is a plus to that -- distribution. It gives collectors something to search for and that is EXACTLY part of the game that makes these fun.
THANK YOU
Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS
We need a good reference for these is what you are asking? With so many great varieties, seems like a good reference is needed.
ME TOO. The publisher that does this will do well. Hmmmmm
Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS
I think John Wexler could enhance his website with pictures of the different stages, especially on the "best of" coins like the skeleton finger. Pitboss says he has poor vision but obviously
he can see well enough to identify several die stages he has in his possession .... I have 20/20 vision but haven't found several die stages in my searches ...
If we can't wait for John to post them on his site maybe we can get some pics together on this thread and make a time-line composite (hope someone's good at editing/cropping) of the
different die stages. My two "stages" are the early ones. The latest one that I found has a very small die crack on the obverse between the rim and bottom of the jacket. I did purchase a
later obverse die crack example that extends well into his body so I could try to take decent pics of those three stages to submit here. If anyone has better photography equipment or skills
and has these same die stages to photograph then please do. I'm sure we will all benefit, and enjoy visually, from having the montage of die stages to view and expand our knowledge.
<< <i>Did you see that ridiculously priced 016 roll? >>
Haha....Papi.....I have it on good authority that it's a trial balloon. A great error though! I'm surprised it's still available! Values are subjective. If it sells we'll know what the
general collecting public is thinking. Good luck to that crazy seller!
<< <i>Did you see that ridiculously priced 016 roll? >>
Values are subjective. If it sells we'll know what the general collecting public is thinking. Good luck to that crazy seller! >>
I've bought 016s, on Ebay, for $2; so that roll would have to have 100% errors to be worth the sellers BIN price They're not rare.
IMO buying a roll with an error "showing", unless you're prepared to open it, is only worth the value of the coins showing; it may be the only one in the roll.
The end coin is usually damaged by the wrapping machine, and you can only rely on the sellers' assurances about how many they've found in other rolls.
I see other rolls with errors on ends too. There is a saying about fools and money. Of course I'm very opinionated.
Yes,can you imagine an end roll of an " Speared buffalo" or an " Extra leaf" quarter...! I don't think any of those end rolls would last too long on the flea,huh? We'are all hoping that the 2009p's get as popular and well recognized as it's counterparts. Cross our (skeleton ) fingers and thumbs.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.
Highlowleaves, you are familiar with the high and low leafs and the bison. Would you care to chime in on those errors on the end rolls? Did you ever find any?
You are the luckiest Papi....$2 each? I'd be surprised if you could find them today for that price...I've never even see them listed on Ebay. You should list one of yours to see what it would
bring individually. I wouldn't be surprised if it went for at least $10. I forget, were these found in lp2 mint boxes? What date (s) and times? I've never found one in a mint issued box
I thought most, if not all, were found in bank boxes. If only found in bank boxes how do you determine rarity? The end roll point is well taken. It is a bit of a crap shoot but how many of
us play the lotto? At least with an end roll error you know in advance that you are not a complete loser and you know from experience that there ARE others inside waiting to be discovered.
How many others? That's the unknown but FUN part of opening ANY roll. Let's imagine that there are several inside (6 or 7...maybe more) x $10 ea. x ultimate value when the CPG comes
out...it's not that big of a gamble to the right buyer. Anyway, I'm not going to bash anyone who pushes the envelope on pricing because in the end, when these errors start to sell at higher
prices, we'll have sellers like these to thank for it. Good hunting "believers" and good selling too!
Hello Pitboss. I started buying bank wrapped rolls of WI D quarters here in the San Antonio/Austin, TX area starting in January, 2005. This was a few weeks prior to their nationwide publicity. I kept finding some unopened rolls/boxes until 2006. I found one bank wrapped roll that had a High on one end and a second roll with the Low leaf on one end. Neither rolls came out of the same box. Lastly, I had been in touch with an AZ dealer who I trust totally that had found one roll at a Bank of America that has a High on one end and a Low on the other end. Persistence and $ enabled me to secure that unique roll. The first two rolls were ones that I found and I know that they have not been fooled with. It took me the better part of 6-7 years to acquire the third. During 2005-2006, one particular individual from FL. made up his own two leaf WI D rolls using String shotgun wrappers. His fraud was well known and he stopped selling thye fake rolls on the Bay years ago.
I had over 80 real Speared Bison nickels back in 2005, but all were purchased as Speared Bison coins, not in rolls.
The only other interesting coin in rolls were the WI D "Fat Leaf" quarters that were found in the San Antonio area at a few local banks. Those rolls came in bank wrapped rolls and several rolls had Fat Leafs on one or both ends.
I beleive that the particular variety/error coin has to appreciate in value and interest before an unopened roll showing the scarce coin is significant. The 2009 P FY DDR showing rolls will be sought after once the individual coins are better known,are wanted and the economy stops tanking. Also, the roll seller must have a 100% perfect and respected reputation among sellers and collectors to keep people interested in the unusual rolls.
Excited to see that Dennis Tucker (Dentuck) of the Redbook (Whitman publishing company) has opened the door a little to us by responding in another thread about the formative errors.
go to the thread: "2014 Redbook sets new records" for the conversation and opportunity to let him know what you think about their failure to include (by variety) values to these.
I've already responded with my argument for expanding the listing of these beyond a "mention" of their existence and vague values attached by individual "interest" in the various errors.
I encourage you all to flood his thread with your opinions while he has this door of opportunity cracked open to us. Perhaps he will see what we see and reconsider his position on the subject.
An invitation from Dennis Tucker to put together a consensus. Everyone please list your "top three" with the information he's requesting attached to your response. Then we will finalize
an agreed upon list to submit to him. Crypto on the other thread is trying to undermine our efforts with very snarky remarks to Dennis about us and this thread in general. Let's get it
together quickly. I would submit the 001 (extra finger) 002 (doubled thumb) , and the 006 (skeleton finger) ... discuss!
<< <i>List them for me, if you would, to make the information easily digestible. . . . in this format:
2009, Variety Name ....... (estimated mintage, if known) ....... MS-63 value ....... MS-65 value
The Red Book doesn't list die varieties by their catalog numbers. However, the Professional Edition Red Book does list far more varieties than the regular-edition Red Book, and it does identify them by their Fivaz-Stanton numbers (for example), in their image captions and also in chart notes.
If you had to pick two or three major 2009 doubled die Lincoln cents, which would they be? What nicknames would you give them as quick-and-easy identifiers for the layman and new hobbyist? What prices would you assign in the grades mentioned above?
>>
Crypto's remarks from the other thread addressed to Dentuck
<< <i>Dentuck IMHO you should consider opinions from say the people over at Coneca as opposed to the 4 forum members that have bought boxes and boxes and boxes of these hoping to strike it rich if they ever develop a two way collector market. If you go over to the big thread they are talking about you will find it filled by a small hand full of members plotting to make it rich and find a way to specifically get them into your book as a perceived gateway to mass acceptance so they can cash out. They forget there are lots of cheap coins in the redbook but don't take my word for it go look for yourself. >>
Manorcourtman in the other thread is piling on and exaggerating along with Crypto how insignificant they see our quest. The "naysayers" are trying their tactics again!
<< <i> This ^^^^^. What's next, 100 + varieties of the Minnesota quarters in the Red Book also? >>
<< <i>Manorcourtman in the other thread is piling on and exaggerating along with Crypto how insignificant they see our quest. The "naysayers" are trying their tactics again!
<< <i> This ^^^^^. What's next, 100 + varieties of the Minnesota quarters in the Red Book also? >>
>>
I would suggest ignoring them and remaining professional. I am not saying that anyone hasn't been. But the focus really is on the collectibility of these coins and our experiences and fun in putting together our collections of the varieties that interest us. As we know, these doubled dies have been very polarizing. This thread is over 1000 posts not from greed but comradeship. Personally, I resent anyone suggesting that I want these listed in a book in order to get rich. That is silly. I will be honest, I could sell all I have for strong money and it wouldn't make a dent in my overall coin and currency collection. This isn't about money to me. I would just like more collectors know about these coins, and the Redbook is the ultimate source because it is the bible for coins. This book isn't necessarily about the veterans, but the new and young collectors getting started who will purchase it. I think these 2009 FY errors are a great foundation for a collector.
But it is easy for a non-believer to justify our interest as a get rich scheme. I don't like hearing that because it isn't how I feel. I can't speak for all, but I do believe that this thread and actually the many other threads on this forum about these coins have been about collecting and discussion about why we like them.
I realize that not everyone likes to collect pennies but I go back to when I started collecting and all I could afford was pennies. These particular pennies have been released to the collecting public and are available for the young collector to find in loose change. When I was young I remember looking for the 55 doubbledie and the 41/42 dime in my change. These young people today need to know that there is some recent error for them to look for. We need to get the word to them that these do exist. I would rather see them looking through pennies than playing war games on the computers.
OneDol -- I've maintained the best three are the same as yours (001, 002, 006), except 001 being named the "sixth finger".
I think if these three can get recognized, it will open the door to the next "best of's".
Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS
<< <i>Manorcourtman in the other thread is piling on and exaggerating along with Crypto how insignificant they see our quest. The "naysayers" are trying their tactics again!
<< <i> This ^^^^^. What's next, 100 + varieties of the Minnesota quarters in the Red Book also? >>
It is noteworthy that Potter's coin vault website highlights 2009 P FY WDDR #43 and WDDR #25. This person is a maker & shaker in the error coin business. He is in charge of the CPG. He can make or discredit a valid coin. Interesting.......
Comments
<< <i>1000---Thank you all for this great conversation! ok, back to collecting and searching. Papi, let's assume there were another 40,000 put into boxes...by your math that's just around 100,000 total between mint sets (6 per roll average) and the bank boxes. Thanks for getting your calculator out!
That would certainly be an extremely low total for any non-proof die.
Could be wrong, but I think a die needs to pound more then 100k coins before it cracks like the skeleton did.
It does have 5 documented stages of progressive wear.
btw, I type in bold so I can see it
<< <i> Has anyone found an 006 in a bank box without either the obverse or reverse die cracks? >>
Yes, I have found them without any cracks in bank boxes.
<< <i>
<< <i>My 30 day run over 300,000 estimate is the best I could some up for production span. I can't see more than a few thousand boxes produced in that few hour window however. Let's just say 4 thousand boxes. If there are 1 or 8 in a roll, that could range from 4 to 32 thousand coins. Yes some have none, some more, and this is all an estimate. Are 4 thousand boxes unrealstic? Seems like a big number for a few hours. But the Mint did make 300,000 total, so they certainly have high capacity equipment.
I know too that this variety made it in bank boxes. But those have the progressive die crack and also the full stage of the fatal die crack. Those bank boxes are not shooting fish in a barrell either like the time stamped LP2 boxes. There have not been many found outside of the LP2 4/23 boxes due to the death of the die.
The key is back to the original statement, this die failed quickly. There is no denying it. I have always felt that the Skeleton Finger is the most dramatic visually of the varieties. It is couple with a nice DD on the obverse, as well as the die cracks that not only add interest, but demonstrate scarcity from die failure.. >>
LP2 Sets went on sale on May 14, 2009 at 12 noon
The first LP2 "sales" figures of 200,055 sets was published on May 20 2009.
Boxes from the initial LP2 run were dated from 4/13/09 to 5/06/09. They do not work on Sat/Sun, so there were 18 production days.
Assuming all the sets initially sold were boxed during that time, that would be 11,114 sets per day.
9774 & 9883 (assuming packaging stations/machines #s) = 5,557 each; assuming an 8 hour work day = 695 per hour or 12 sets per minute (all assumptions)
11,114 sets x 50 P cents per set = 555,708 P cents per day
I have found as many as 13 Skeletons in one roll or 26%. So, if we use an average conservative number of 6 per roll that would be 12%.
6% of 555,708 = 33,342 (3 per roll); 8% = 44,457 (4 per roll); 10% = 55,570 (5 per roll); 12% 66,685 (6 per roll)
Of course this is not exact, but it could indicate the possible number of Skeletons that were in LP2 sets. How many in bank boxes??? >>
That is some good analysis Papi, thank you! But isn't your calculation based on a full day? So say 11,114 sets a day (or shoot, that 10,000 estimate I had was pretty good too), but I feel strongly that not a full day's supply had the skeleton fingers, but rather the early morning run to afternoon, and not the later afternoon time stamps. I personally know for a fact, that many boxes from that day (and even the sweet time spots) did not have the error. And I am fine with a 6 a roll estimate as believe it or not, I literally have a round 6 number as an average of my data. But I think we could cut down the number of boxes by a few thousand. What do you think?
I know two of them are jtstanton@aol and kpotter256@aol.com.
I do know that they both own these coins and do have an interest in collecting them .
The more they hear from us the better even if they don't answer our emails they will know we exist.
<< <i>The coverage mentions that several doubled-die varieties
exist, and that their values vary according to how
dramatic the doubling is.
>>
Dennis Tucker's response about the Formative error listings in the new upcoming 2014 Redbook. Does it get any more vague than this?
<< <i>That is some good analysis Papi, thank you! But isn't your calculation based on a full day? So say 11,114 sets a day (or shoot, that 10,000 estimate I had was pretty good too), but I feel strongly that not a full day's supply had the skeleton fingers, but rather the early morning run to afternoon, and not the later afternoon time stamps. I personally know for a fact, that many boxes from that day (and even the sweet time spots) did not have the error. And I am fine with a 6 a roll estimate as believe it or not, I literally have a round 6 number as an average of my data. But I think we could cut down the number of boxes by a few thousand. What do you think? >>
I think you are correct.
If we take the estimated number of packages per hour are narrow down the known time stamps of actual boxes, we can arrive at a well educated guess of LP2 quantities.
I also noticed my multiplication was off 11,114*50=555700, not 555708
That's why I type in bold, can't see
Let me update this:
bought 5 boxes all same date time and 9883 number about a month or so ago.
1 box had 13 WDDR 006 and 8 WDDR10 in it.
1 box had 4 WDDR 006 and nothing else
2 boxes had nothing
5th box is unopened and I intend to keep it that way for now.
Does not make any sense why so many boxes with the same numbers are so different.
I seem to recall someone saying they got one in a 4/22 box -- likely late timed, but I didn't.
This is classified information that will self-destruct in 15 seconds.
<< <i>I am afraid I am guilty of not recording my times and dates. I do know my last successful box was 13:09 9883 4/23 and it contained 13 WDDR 006. Another one same numbers had nothing in it. >>
That is interesting
<< <i>Let me update this: bought 5 boxes all same date time and 9883 number about a month or so ago. >>
But that's more interesting. Where did you find 5 boxes to buy a month ago; 1tommy ?
<< <i>804 to 1310 hrs, in 35 boxes were winners.
I seem to recall someone saying they got one in a 4/22 box -- likely late timed, but I didn't.
This is classified information that will self-destruct in 15 seconds. >>
I concur. My sweet spot was in the 9 am range. And like I and others have said, even then there were goose eggs at times and no skeletons.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am afraid I am guilty of not recording my times and dates. I do know my last successful box was 13:09 9883 4/23 and it contained 13 WDDR 006. Another one same numbers had nothing in it. >>
That is interesting
<< <i>Let me update this: bought 5 boxes all same date time and 9883 number about a month or so ago. >>
But that's more interesting. Where did you find 5 boxes to buy a month ago; 1tommy ? >>
listing number 281055230966
<< <i>
<< <i>804 to 1310 hrs, in 35 boxes were winners.
I seem to recall someone saying they got one in a 4/22 box -- likely late timed, but I didn't.
This is classified information that will self-destruct in 15 seconds. >>
I concur. My sweet spot was in the 9 am range. And like I and others have said, even then there were goose eggs at times and no skeletons. >>
So, we're looking at approximately 5 hours
5*695*50=173,750 Philadelphia cents
Avg of 6 per set = 20,850 Skeletons in LP2 Boxes
That's a really really really small number
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>804 to 1310 hrs, in 35 boxes were winners.
I seem to recall someone saying they got one in a 4/22 box -- likely late timed, but I didn't.
This is classified information that will self-destruct in 15 seconds. >>
I concur. My sweet spot was in the 9 am range. And like I and others have said, even then there were goose eggs at times and no skeletons. >>
So, we're looking at approximately 5 hours
5*695*50=173,750 Philadelphia cents
Avg of 6 per set = 20,850 Skeletons in LP2 Boxes
That's a really really really small number
That is what I have been saying from day one!
That is a small number despite them being captive and found in identifiable boxes. The "wild ones" found in bank boxes don't concern me too much considering those were made for circulation and also from the short die life. That number can't be pinpointed as well, but like I said, they are out in circulation for the most part.
These skeleton finger are special. I am not saying others agree or will care, but I just love how the most dramatic variety can also be considered scarce with a decent level of certainty.
You've all provided valuable insights to the mintage of my FAVORITE ddr, so thank you for that. I'm actually surprised it could be in the 21k range of minting (high), but there is a plus to that -- distribution. It gives collectors something to search for and that is EXACTLY part of the game that makes these fun.
THANK YOU
I have them with the short die crack from the edge of the coin to the A.
I have one with that die crack that runs all the way down into the field after going through the A.
I have one with a long die crack on the obverse that starts just southeast of the bow tie and runs down to the edge of the coin.
I see others with small die cracks here and there.
I just have too many of these and they all seem to have different things to look for.
I wish we had pictures of all these different stages so I could figure it all out.
As I said I have poor eyesight and without pictures I am lost.
We need a good reference for these is what you are asking? With so many great varieties, seems like a good reference is needed.
ME TOO. The publisher that does this will do well. Hmmmmm
he can see well enough to identify several die stages he has in his possession ....
If we can't wait for John to post them on his site maybe we can get some pics together on this thread and make a time-line composite (hope someone's good at editing/cropping) of the
different die stages. My two "stages" are the early ones. The latest one that I found has a very small die crack on the obverse between the rim and bottom of the jacket. I did purchase a
later obverse die crack example that extends well into his body so I could try to take decent pics of those three stages to submit here. If anyone has better photography equipment or skills
and has these same die stages to photograph then please do. I'm sure we will all benefit, and enjoy visually, from having the montage of die stages to view and expand our knowledge.
<< <i>I have one with that die crack that runs all the way down into the field after going through the A.
I have one with a long die crack on the obverse that starts just southeast of the bow tie and runs down to the edge of the coin.
As I said I have poor eyesight and without pictures I am lost. >>
Your eyesight can't be that poor if you can see the crack from the rim to the top of the A, cause it's miniscule.
It appears you have the 2 good ones, with large cracks. The other 5 stages will be specialists items, cause they are small.
Minute nuances will not interest the masses. Stick with what is easily seen.
Did you see that ridiculously priced 016 roll?
<< <i>Did you see that ridiculously priced 016 roll? >>
Haha....Papi.....I have it on good authority that it's a trial balloon. A great error though!
general collecting public is thinking. Good luck to that crazy seller!
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<< <i>I have one with that die crack that runs all the way down into the field after going through the A.
I have one with a long die crack on the obverse that starts just southeast of the bow tie and runs down to the edge of the coin.
As I said I have poor eyesight and without pictures I am lost. >>
Your eyesight can't be that poor if you can see the crack from the rim to the top of the A, cause it's miniscule.
It appears you have the 2 good ones, with large cracks. The other 5 stages will be specialists items, cause they are small.
Minute nuances will not interest the masses. Stick with what is easily seen.
Did you see that ridiculously priced 016 roll? >>
I have a pretty powerful microscope which when I move the light source around I can pick up the crack on the rim but all the other stuff like
die cracks running through the eyebrow and the hair are too hard to pick out.
I guess the specialist items I will leave for others to find when I sell them.
I have 5 WDDR 016 and they are nice but I really don't think I will go all out to get them as they are just too hard to find.
Maybe someday I will get lucky and find a box that has some in it.
I certainly would not trade my 25's or 43's to get them.
Thanks Papi
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<< <i>Did you see that ridiculously priced 016 roll? >>
Values are subjective. If it sells we'll know what the general collecting public is thinking. Good luck to that crazy seller! >>
I've bought 016s, on Ebay, for $2; so that roll would have to have 100% errors to be worth the sellers BIN price They're not rare.
IMO buying a roll with an error "showing", unless you're prepared to open it, is only worth the value of the coins showing; it may be the only one in the roll.
The end coin is usually damaged by the wrapping machine, and you can only rely on the sellers' assurances about how many they've found in other rolls.
I see other rolls with errors on ends too. There is a saying about fools and money. Of course I'm very opinionated.
When these things start to sell a little better I may put some of them on again but I too do not have much faith in their holding a lot of value.
<< <i>I have about 80 rolls with errors on the end and have tried selling them on ebay but have not had much luck so I don't put much faith in them.
When these things start to sell a little better I may put some of them on again but I too do not have much faith in their holding a lot of value. >>
It only indicates what might be inside. Can you send an "end roll" for grading? How many people show you their collection of "end rolls"?
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.<< <i>I've bought 016s, on Ebay, for $2; >>
You are the luckiest Papi....$2 each? I'd be surprised if you could find them today for that price...I've never even see them listed on Ebay. You should list one of yours to see what it would
bring individually. I wouldn't be surprised if it went for at least $10. I forget, were these found in lp2 mint boxes? What date (s) and times? I've never found one in a mint issued box
I thought most, if not all, were found in bank boxes. If only found in bank boxes how do you determine rarity? The end roll point is well taken. It is a bit of a crap shoot but how many of
us play the lotto? At least with an end roll error you know in advance that you are not a complete loser and you know from experience that there ARE others inside waiting to be discovered.
How many others? That's the unknown but FUN part of opening ANY roll. Let's imagine that there are several inside (6 or 7...maybe more) x $10 ea. x ultimate value when the CPG comes
out...it's not that big of a gamble to the right buyer. Anyway, I'm not going to bash anyone who pushes the envelope on pricing because in the end, when these errors start to sell at higher
prices, we'll have sellers like these to thank for it. Good hunting "believers" and good selling too!
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There's a lot of passion surrounding the 2009 doubled dies!
Does anyone have a list of print-publication articles written on
the subject? >>
Not sure there are any formal articles regarding these doubled dies for him to read but JoeyCoins invited him to read our thread...
If any of you have seen any articles published regarding these please let us know...i would love to read another's perspective.
"Jesus died for you and for me, Thank you,Jesus"!!!
--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.I had over 80 real Speared Bison nickels back in 2005, but all were purchased as Speared Bison coins, not in rolls.
The only other interesting coin in rolls were the WI D "Fat Leaf" quarters that were found in the San Antonio area at a few local banks. Those rolls came in bank wrapped rolls and several rolls had Fat Leafs on one or both ends.
I beleive that the particular variety/error coin has to appreciate in value and interest before an unopened roll showing the scarce coin is significant. The 2009 P FY DDR showing rolls will be sought after once the individual coins are better known,are wanted and the economy stops tanking. Also, the roll seller must have a 100% perfect and respected reputation among sellers and collectors to keep people interested in the unusual rolls.
I think these 2009 rolls with the errors on the end will be of some good value in the near future.
I know the rolls that I have opened have produce anywhere from 4 to 14 of the error coins that were on the end of the roll.
The coins that have the best errors anyway not the 100 that are made up of insignificant errors, I don't even save them anymore.
A good place to start is the errors that now have CPG numbers along with about 3 or 7 others that have not as yet been assigned numbers.
go to the thread: "2014 Redbook sets new records" for the conversation and opportunity to let him know what you think about their failure to include (by variety) values to these.
I've already responded with my argument for expanding the listing of these beyond a "mention" of their existence and vague values attached by individual "interest" in the various errors.
I encourage you all to flood his thread with your opinions while he has this door of opportunity cracked open to us. Perhaps he will see what we see and reconsider his position on the subject.
Carry on Doubled Die-Hards!
Don't forget about Ken Potter and J T Stanton that I have given you the emails address's for.
An invitation from Dennis Tucker to put together a consensus. Everyone please list your "top three" with the information he's requesting attached to your response. Then we will finalize
an agreed upon list to submit to him. Crypto on the other thread is trying to undermine our efforts with very snarky remarks to Dennis about us and this thread in general. Let's get it
together quickly. I would submit the 001 (extra finger) 002 (doubled thumb) , and the 006 (skeleton finger) ... discuss!
<< <i>List them for me, if you would, to make the information easily digestible. . . . in this format:
2009, Variety Name ....... (estimated mintage, if known) ....... MS-63 value ....... MS-65 value
The Red Book doesn't list die varieties by their catalog numbers. However, the Professional Edition
Red Book does list far more varieties than the regular-edition Red Book, and it does identify them
by their Fivaz-Stanton numbers (for example), in their image captions and also in chart notes.
If you had to pick two or three major 2009 doubled die Lincoln cents, which would they be?
What nicknames would you give them as quick-and-easy identifiers for the layman and new hobbyist?
What prices would you assign in the grades mentioned above?
>>
Crypto's remarks from the other thread addressed to Dentuck
<< <i>Dentuck IMHO you should consider opinions from say the people over at Coneca as opposed to the 4 forum members that have bought boxes and boxes and boxes of these hoping to strike it rich if they ever develop a two way collector market. If you go over to the big thread they are talking about you will find it filled by a small hand full of members plotting to make it rich and find a way to specifically get them into your book as a perceived gateway to mass acceptance so they can cash out. They forget there are lots of cheap coins in the redbook but don't take my word for it go look for yourself.
>>
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This ^^^^^. What's next, 100 + varieties of the Minnesota quarters in the Red Book also? >>
<< <i>Manorcourtman in the other thread is piling on and exaggerating along with Crypto how insignificant they see our quest. The "naysayers" are trying their tactics again!
<< <i>
This ^^^^^. What's next, 100 + varieties of the Minnesota quarters in the Red Book also? >>
>>
I would suggest ignoring them and remaining professional. I am not saying that anyone hasn't been. But the focus really is on the collectibility of these coins and our experiences and fun in putting together our collections of the varieties that interest us. As we know, these doubled dies have been very polarizing. This thread is over 1000 posts not from greed but comradeship. Personally, I resent anyone suggesting that I want these listed in a book in order to get rich. That is silly. I will be honest, I could sell all I have for strong money and it wouldn't make a dent in my overall coin and currency collection. This isn't about money to me. I would just like more collectors know about these coins, and the Redbook is the ultimate source because it is the bible for coins. This book isn't necessarily about the veterans, but the new and young collectors getting started who will purchase it. I think these 2009 FY errors are a great foundation for a collector.
But it is easy for a non-believer to justify our interest as a get rich scheme. I don't like hearing that because it isn't how I feel. I can't speak for all, but I do believe that this thread and actually the many other threads on this forum about these coins have been about collecting and discussion about why we like them.
I think if these three can get recognized, it will open the door to the next "best of's".
<< <i>Manorcourtman in the other thread is piling on and exaggerating along with Crypto how insignificant they see our quest. The "naysayers" are trying their tactics again!
<< <i>
This ^^^^^. What's next, 100 + varieties of the Minnesota quarters in the Red Book also? >>
>>
Naysayers
Hoard the keys.