<< <i>They have all been sold? I do not think so...... How many sets are actually out in the world as of right now? >>
I do. The AP's are not sitting on these. Their profit was limited, so no point in holding onto a set until they hit the $10,000 - $15,000 range so they have moved them out the door. The public that bought (dealers or general) have them and are waiting to see where these shake out. Since buying them at Mint mandated prices is $38/oz silver, these can go in the safe and see what becomes of the prices. The rules were written so poorly by the Mint, that the general public has been shut out of these. Those buyers that got a set from APMEX, Good Center or MTB will sell on eBay (if they are selling), but the rest will be sold to the best customers of the dealers who have a few sets thanks to the AP taking care of their best customers.
I think the only reason MTB put them on sale was that they were clueless to the collector value and just treated them as the bullion they were intended to be and did NOT expect the response..
The other AP's in the know distributed them to the "Big Boys" and associates...
Take APMEX as a perfect example......they should have put 3000-4000 sets on sale last week.......what is the point of holding them. The ONLY explanation is that they are not holding them.....
The capsule excuse crap of the NYC CF is bogus. Since when is a bullion dealer worried about capsules for bullion coins. They would have just put them in flips and be done with it.
As of seconds ago the message on the PB Financial Precious Metals phone has changed to: "Starting immediately, all sales of the America the Beautiful 5 oz silver coins have been suspended indefinitely"
Well, that will free up 2 hours of wasted time for me every morning. I don't think they ever picked up that phone. I have called since last Wednesday and never got a live person. I called the other number several times and somebody ALWAYS picked up. What a total BS story...
<<prudential's answering machine just said " effective immediately, we have suspended sales of the.......... sorry for any inconvience! >>
So...an open question to those who were calling for calm over the past couple of weeks...to not call the Mint...and to just give everyone a chance to "do the right thing"...is it time to call a spade a spade yet and admit that we've all been royally screwed?
What a joke..."remain calm"...wasn't that the line used by Kevin Bacon in Animal House just before the panicked mob flattened him?
Confirmed as to being set in stone that it will occur? No. However, production problems and significant time loss problems as a result are well known. If savings in both, can be significantly realized by an immediate switch, IMHO, it will occur.
I think it's a done deal for it except for the official announcement. Given all the current puck problems, I would think they wouldn't announce a thing until the sales are completed because if they did, it would only increase the current 3 inch hysteria far more than it already is.
Another reason for the "instant rarity" status, IMHO, of the current 5 ounce offering.
MTB says that email confirmations should be caught up by tomorrow afternoon. If you placed an order and don't receive an email confirmation by tomorrow afternoon they said to call them.
<< <i>Just curious. Has any other U.S. Coin or Coin Set rocketed in price like the America The Beautiful 5 oz Silver Sets?
Coin Vault $3999, HSN $4799, Chattanooga Coin Inc. $3989, and now Jim Hausman - Owner of The Gold Center calling for $15,000 - $20,000/set valuations.
IMHO, EBAY Flippers need to hold on to their sets and drive the prices even higher. How High Can They Fly? >>
Sure, other items have gone to the moon. The Reverse proofs (both gold and silver) went crazy. I bought 13 sets of the gold and sold the raw sets for up to 5500. I sold single graded reverse proofs for up to 6000 when gold was 800 per ounce. >>
Way to go BigDaddy, one of the great things about the hobby is that it can be self-sustaining, thats what I tell the wife at least-------------BigE >>
After almost 50 years of collecting, I seldom go out on a limb, predicting "great things" for any coin... or set of coins.
In this case though, I think the future is very likely to go through the roof and, perhaps, touch the sky (one set per customer, kept in truthful mind), in terms of return on investment. These 33,000 sets, IMHO, are going to become the highest ROI coins of the early 21st Century. They will dwarf the 1999 silver state quarters and, perhaps, the Jackie Robinson and the MS bimetallic $10. coins. I have never predicted moon money for anything BUT....for the first time, I think these really have that long term potential. I know I have a set coming soon and I've already received e-mails offering me 4x to 5x what I paid...and that's without PCGS grading, either regular or First Strike.
No sale, I'm keeping these because I want to enjoy them. I'm not interesting in flipping or getting a second set. For every first class sh*t who gets a second set through dubious means, that takes one set away from an average person who just wants one set to put away for themselves. I'd prosecute any potential flipper who is/are using others to purchase multiple sets and I'd give them actual jail time to reinforce their understanding the errors of their ways.
Before anyone accuses me of being an "ist," (as in communist/socialist/etc.), I say "know your isms," first and foremost because I sure as hades do. I just want as many people as possible to have a fair chance at getting the one darn set they really want, and not for flipping, as opposed to those who think absolute greed is good in a post Gordon Gecko era. I'm a conservative Republican who was a Reagan convention delegate and my favorite of the upcoming candidates would likely P.O most people because how strongly conservative they are. I just want real, honest to goodness, fairness on something as unique as this set of hockey pucks. >>
While I believe you are NOT hyping these and you really feel that way I am not as convinced about moon money over the long haul. Yes, they are hot now but I could see that melting away somewhat. I could see these settling down to a reasonable premium that will be greater than the rest but at 33K population and probably all in the 66 to 69 range I don't see them in the same category as the other high priced moderns. Now if a PCGS 70 set comes up that could be different. >>
I understand your thinking. In response I'll ask you to consider two things. The first is that this may be the only set of hockey pucks to be 3.0 inches as the Mint now has the authority to make all the rest 2.5 inches in order to minimize mint problems. The second is to try and imagine waaayyy back when the the two $50. PanPacs were first offered. Short to medium term, I doubt many collectors thought they'd be whatever terminology they used for "moon money," in those days. Add the same amount of time to this very first, and very limited set....regardless of whether you have a PCGS MS 64 or 67 or 70 (winning PowerBall may be more likely)....and I think a similarly long range perspective can (and does) put these particular 5 pucks in that potential.....very strongly so, I believe. >>
tcmitssr-
Thanks for the great posts today!
I think that the main factor limiting future appreciation of the bullion pucks will be the numismatic pucks (it they're every issued). I think that the bullion pucks will always do well, but will live in the shadows of the numismatic version, which will likely be incredible. The numismatic version should be 3" as well. Your thoughts on this? >>
thanks for your kind words.
I think it's highly likely there will never be 3 inch pucks again, they are too frail from all reports. That's why Congress passed late in the last session authorization to shrink them to 2.5 inches at the Mint's discretion. These first pucks will be truly unique and the series keys. Many may collect the 100,000 sets each year in the future but there will never be more than 33,000 complete sets, assuming they are kept together, not melted (if silver continues to rise) etc. Grandparents may split their 5 coins among 5 grandchildren over time as another example. These 33,000 sets will only be reduced/dissipated/dispersed over time, shrinking their actual and practical true numbers for complete sets.
Supply and demand. Short term supply in six months might make decisions now seem stupid but in six years, extremely smart and wise. >>
I thought that the "nimismatic" pucks have already been struck and are 3". Is this not correct? Of course, there is the issue of whether or not The Mint has the authority to strike them per the CW article previously referenced, etc...
<< <i><<prudential's answering machine just said " effective immediately, we have suspended sales of the.......... sorry for any inconvience! >>
So...an open question to those who were calling for calm over the past couple of weeks...to not call the Mint...and to just give everyone a chance to "do the right thing"...is it time to call a spade a spade yet and admit that we've all been royally screwed?
What a joke..."remain calm"...wasn't that the line used by Kevin Bacon in Animal House just before the panicked mob flattened him? >>
I don't think that they ever started sales. They are total B.S.
<< <i>As of seconds ago the message on the PB Financial Precious Metals phone has changed to: "Starting immediately, all sales of the America the Beautiful 5 oz silver coins have been suspended indefinitely"
Well, that will free up 2 hours of wasted time for me every morning. I don't think they ever picked up that phone. I have called since last Wednesday and never got a live person. I called the other number several times and somebody ALWAYS picked up. What a total BS story... >>
Actually, I know two people who got thru on Tuesday, the first day.
This is unfortunate. Whether you got thru or not, you had a chance, which was fair enough.
He took orders for 120 minutes a day, being generious, say selling 100 sets a day. Considering he did it for 3 days last week, then 2 1/2 days this week, that would come out to 550 sets.
I think someone got to him and said what the Hello are you doing all that work for, you can dump them this way.....
<< <i>So...an open question to those who were calling for calm over the past couple of weeks...to not call the Mint...and to just give everyone a chance to "do the right thing"...is it time to call a spade a spade yet and admit that we've been royally screwed? >>
We were royally screwed before we even realized it. The Mint had a very limited number of choices in the first place, and once the pucks left the loading dock they had none. The reality is these things are like playoff tickets. You would think being a life-long fan that buys tickets throughout the years should be enough to get you a pair, but it isn't. These are being doled out like the ultimate tchotchke. The Mint, by limiting the profit potential of the AP's, put them in the position of rewarding their best customers (if you didn't get a set, you know where you rank with the AP's) and the AP's best customers (if you didn't get a set from your local coin store, you know where you rank with them. If they didn't get one, you know where your local coin store ranks with the AP's).
Let's face it - these are hot, they have the potential to get hotter and aside from a lucky few, these are not going to be sold to the general public. My guess is ATB now knows what they have and are calling their client list with a once in a lifetime chance to triple your money...
I don't know of anyone who purchased from MTB. What a joke they are also. I know of one major dealer who sent 300 sets to NGC grading. Funny how there is a limit of one per household. I here there are plenty to buy at the Fun Show if you have $2300.00 .
i called mtb today and they didnt even have my email that was sent back on monday ....but the guy i talked with said he was going to take care of it send it direct to him and he would get me a confirmation today im crossing my fingers
I've been calling Prudential for days. I've actually made it through on their phone line a few times, but each time - I only get their recording. I decided to play with their phone system, and made it into their general phone directory, so I chose a number at random. When I asked to be transfered to the guy taking orders, they wanted to give me the same exact number I had called to get the recording.
When I explained that it was the exact number I had just called, the guy hung up on me. That pissed me off enough to call their general bullion trading desk number. I ended up complaining about my experience to a bullion trader, who really didn't want to hear it.
I'm inclined to think that the way to get a message through is to start calling their general business numbers until they start actually taking orders.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>I don't know of anyone who purchased from MTB. What a joke they are also. I know of one major dealer who sent 300 sets to NGC grading. Funny how there is a limit of one per household. I here there are plenty to buy at the Fun Show if you have $2300.00 . >>
<< <i>I've been calling Prudential for days. I've actually made it through on their phone line a few times, but each time - I only get their recording. I decided to play with their phone system, and made it into their general phone directory, so I chose a number at random. When I asked to be transfered to the guy taking orders, they wanted to give me the same exact number I had called to get the recording.
When I explained that it was the exact number I had just called, the guy hung up on me. That pissed me off enough to call their general bullion trading desk number. I ended up complaining about my experience to a bullion trader, who really didn't want to hear it.
I'm inclined to think that the way to get a message through is to start calling their general business numbers until they start actually taking orders. >>
<< <i>I've been calling Prudential for days. I've actually made it through on their phone line a few times, but each time - I only get their recording. I decided to play with their phone system, and made it into their general phone directory, so I chose a number at random. When I asked to be transfered to the guy taking orders, they wanted to give me the same exact number I had called to get the recording.
When I explained that it was the exact number I had just called, the guy hung up on me. That pissed me off enough to call their general bullion trading desk number. I ended up complaining about my experience to a bullion trader, who really didn't want to hear it.
I'm inclined to think that the way to get a message through is to start calling their general business numbers until they start actually taking orders. >>
This kind of thing is probably why they stopped taking orders.
The instructions were clear. Call the special number, if you win, you get a set, if not, you don't. what's so difficult. Now, probably because of people calling all the other numbers and complaining, they aren't selling any.
At least I had some kind of chance, now I have NONE.
<<The instructions were clear. Call the special number, if you win, you get a set, if not, you don't. what's so difficult. Now, probably because of people calling all the other numbers and complaining, they aren't selling any.>>
Uh no...sorry...the time to wait patiently in line has long passed (I experienced that first-hand, literally, at MTB on Monday...and had a door slammed in my face). If these scumbags are going to jerk us around, then we should at least take some minimal pleasure in making them uncomfortable!
"Now be good little children and maybe we'll drop you a few crumbs from our plate..."
<< <i>I've been calling Prudential for days. I've actually made it through on their phone line a few times, but each time - I only get their recording. I decided to play with their phone system, and made it into their general phone directory, so I chose a number at random. When I asked to be transfered to the guy taking orders, they wanted to give me the same exact number I had called to get the recording.
When I explained that it was the exact number I had just called, the guy hung up on me. That pissed me off enough to call their general bullion trading desk number. I ended up complaining about my experience to a bullion trader, who really didn't want to hear it.
I'm inclined to think that the way to get a message through is to start calling their general business numbers until they start actually taking orders. >>
This kind of thing is probably why they stopped taking orders.
The instructions were clear. Call the special number, if you win, you get a set, if not, you don't. what's so difficult. Now, probably because of people calling all the other numbers and complaining, they aren't selling any. >>
If these firms had no way to sell the pucks to the public per The Mint's rules, then THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE ORDERED THEM!! What Prudential did is NOT an effective way to sell 3K sets.
This kind of thing is probably why they stopped taking orders.
ya think?
The instructions were clear. Call the special number, if you win, you get a set, if not, you don't. what's so difficult. Now, probably because of people calling all the other numbers and complaining, they aren't selling any.
I call BS. I called that number for days. Every time I got through, I got a recording. BS. They are selling very few sets, while the big dealers are selling them at FUN. There is no distribution going on. One or two stray sets being confirmed here to determined collectors who pursue every possible avenue for a scant few sets - illustrates exactly the point. I call BS. Call it what it is.
This is another MTB in the making.
The more you push them, the worse it will get.
Back off and let them get organized.
Again, I call BS.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
No. They now have the right to make the change, but no obligation to do so. Having spent millions to perfect the three-inch format, why change? TD >>
If it's not in their plans to do so, why did they request & obtained congressional approval to do so?
I believe it's a done deal for 2011 pucks. As 7over8 so often states "you can put a fork in it" >>
Who knows when they requested it? Had Congress given them the permission last March, the coins might have been available in quantity by now. They passed it in December.
Changing the format now would be silly.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
What is particularly galling here is that first these firms have trouble understanding contract language from the Mint...
"Oh we can't possibly abide by these restrictive guidelines..."
"This is an enfringement of free enterprise...who are they to tell us anything..."
And then these same firms put various artificial hurdles in place for sales...no Internet...no telephone...no OTC...the need for preexisting accounts...no credit cards...etc....etc...
Gee...it might make one think that they REALLY DON'T WANT TO SELL THESE TO THE PUBLIC!
No. They now have the right to make the change, but no obligation to do so. Having spent millions to perfect the three-inch format, why change? TD >>
If it's not in their plans to do so, why did they request & obtained congressional approval to do so?
I believe it's a done deal for 2011 pucks. As 7over8 so often states "you can put a fork in it" >>
Who knows when they requested it? Had Congress given them the permission last March, the coins might have been available in quantity by now. They passed it in December.
Changing the format now would be silly.
TD >>
I agree with the Capt, these coins will keep their 3" diameter. The only change we may see will be the weight and purity information moved from the edge lettering moved to somewhere else.
Reality check #3 .... "Money talks ... bs walks" .... Welcome to the real world. I hope this has been a learning experience for you novices. However, I wish from the bottom of my heart, to those of you who have worked so enthusiastically & vigorously in trying to obtain these pucks....success.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
I think at this time it would be good to remember that these obsessively coveted objects are just disks of silver stamped with a modestly attractive image. Yes they are shiney but they will tarnish like so many material objects in this world. Come to think of it, these might look good tarnished, but I digress. Still, these are just metal disks so remember to keep your feet on the ground so there will be fewer regrets.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>I think at this time it would be good to remember that these obsessively coveted objects are just disks of silver stamped with a modestly attractive image. Yes they are shiney but they will tarnish like so many material objects in this world. Come to think of it, these might look good tarnished, but I digress. Still, these are just metal disks so remember to keep your feet on the ground so there will be fewer regrets. >>
Very well said... or as Bongo Bongo once said in a forum thread....
IF YOU BUY WHAT YOU LIKE, AT A PRICE YOU CAN AFFORD AT THE TIME, THEN THINGS WILL BE EASIER
IF YOU BUY WHAT OTHER PEOPLE LIKE, BORROW TO FUND IT AND EXPECT MULTIPLES OF RETURN, THEN YOU ARE LIKELY TO BE UNHAPPY
BONGO SAY NEARLY EVERYTHING DEPRECIATES OVER TIME.BONGO WOULD NOT PAY $500 FOR A SILVER BELL THIS XMAS AND EXPECT IT TO BE WORTH $550 NEXT YEAR. BUT BONGO KNOW A SILVER BELL IS NOT OLD COIN.
OR IS IT.
BONGO MAYBE NOT SURPRISED THAT OLD COIN IS LIKE ANY OTHER LIMITED NON ESSENTIAL COMMODITY AND SUBJECT TO THE WHIMS OF TASTE AND MARKET.
PUT THE COIN IN BOOK AND ENJOY IT.
IF IT IS WORTH MORE WHEN YOU COME TO SELL IT, WELL DONE
IF NOT, THEN YOU HAVE HAD ENJOYMENT OUT OF IT.
REMEMBER THAT OLD COIN IS ONLY WORTH FEW DOLLARS IN PHYSICAL MATERIAL VALUE - THIS IS WHY VALUE IS AN ESOTERIC CONCEPT IN MANY WAYS AND IT MAY BE VULGAR TO ASSIGN ANY MONETARY VALUE TO OLD COIN
UNLESS YOU ARE A RUSSIAN OLIGARCH OR CHINESE SHODDY GOODS FACTORY OWNER
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
They created this mess AND they are sitting on 6000 sets (assuming most are not on HSC) and they are not even letting the public know WHY they are NOT SELLING these sets.
There are hiding behind their stupid AlertMe response and that allows them to say nothing.
MTB at least attempted to sell their inventory and found they were unprepared. APMEX already has public distribution ready.
" Uh no...sorry...the time to wait patiently in line has long passed (I experienced that first-hand, literally, at MTB on Monday...and had a door slammed in my face). If these scumbags are going to jerk us around, then we should at least take some minimal pleasure in making them uncomfortable!
"Now be good little children and maybe we'll drop you a few crumbs from our plate..."
They can all go to hell!"
I'm with you on this Rich as I was there Monday too, albeit nowhere near as long as you were.
Successful BSTs with adriana, barrytrot, Bochiman, Dabigkahuna, Modern Coin Mart, oilstates2003, terburn88, THEGENERAL
does anyone have concrete proof of dealers who will sell them at FUN in quatities greater than could be explained by eBay purchases?
If there is no answer to this today, I will attempt to answer this tomorrow. (technology permitting) I will arrive at the show first thing in the morning.
Positive transactions with Cladiator, Meltdown, ajbauman, LeeG, route66,DennisH,Hmann,FilamCoins,mgoodm3,terburn88,MrOrganic, weg,dcarr,guitarwes,Zubie,Barndog,wondercoin,braddick,etc...
<< <i>I get tired of people running interference for the Mint and the greedy distributor network. Don't you? >>
Face it, everyone has the sin of greed at times. What we should try and do is to make sure we do is not have a double standard. Some people seem to patrol sins in some while excusing it in others. This is bad too. Every ox should have his right to eat wile treading the grain but gluttonous oxes get slaughtered.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<<I think at this time it would be good to remember that these obsessively coveted objects are just disks of silver stamped with a modestly attractive image. >>
Yes...absolutely true...and stepping back to speak as a person who suddenly lost both parents within a year of each other...I do agree on a macro level. Coins are things...as is money.
HOWEVER, constantly getting run over and abused gets old real fast and makes otherwide rationale people do irrational things.
And after the MTP incident on Monday, I was having heart palpitations in the cab ride back to my office...and my wife said that I looked like someone died.
The meek may inherit the earth...but I'm not sure I'm at that level of acceptance yet!
They created this mess AND they are sitting on 6000 sets (assuming most are not on HSC) and they are not even letting the public know WHY they are NOT SELLING these sets.
There are hiding behind their stupid AlertMe response and that allows them to say nothing.
MTB at least attempted to sell their inventory and found they were unprepared. APMEX already has public distribution ready. >>
I disagree on this to a point. APMEX was selling 1000 sets to the public at the same price they were offering them to their dealers. That is the only time in this whole fiasco that the public and the dealers were on the same footing. APMEX has sold more to the 'public' than any other AP. I do think they are getting the other sets ready and are going to sell them all at once. They had air-tites for 1000 sets and nobody has 10,000 of these sitting around. I guess they could have put the remaining 600 of the initial 1000 sets sold on their website, then when they suspended sales after selling all of those, they would be crucified for not selling all of them at once, starting and then stopping, etc
Welcome randy! Your request has been directed to the Buying from APMEX department. Please wait for our operator to answer your call. We appreciate your patience.
Call accepted by operator Cristy. Currently in room: Cristy, randy.
Cristy: Hello Randy! Cristy: We still have not received definite word as to exactly when these will be offered on our site. You will receive a notification before they become available if you have signed up for an alert. randy: i just dont understand what the holdup is as u already have the cases for them and the packaging randy: i dont know how true this is but i am hearing alot of rumors that they are being sold by all the distributors under the table to dealers and HSN,QVC....as how did all these places come up with 300-400 sets each Cristy: I do not have information on that. We will be offering these coins under the guidelines established by the US Mint. randy: so i just want to try and understand i was told u had already sold like 380 sets so does that mean u will have like 2600 sets to still sell Cristy: I do not have an exact number. We did offer some sets for sale before the mint changed the guidelines. We were only able to honor the orders that fit within the mint guidelines. randy: ok ...there are just alot of rumors going around that some shady things are happening im nt saying withyou guys but som of the APs as there is a dealer at the FUN show in flordia that has over 300 sets and my local coin shop has more than 100 ....it is making the little guy think he has no shot randy: ? Cristy: I can't comment on that. You may call our Customer Service Manager Jana Hale at (800) 375-9006 to discuss that further. Cristy: Is there anything else I can assist you with today?
Cristy has left the conversation. Currently in room: randy.
I just called Dillon Gage and said that I wanted to buy 5 1 oz 2011 gold eagles.
The salesman told me that they haven't come out yet but that he would be happy to call me when they're available.
Then I said that I wanted to buy an ATB set...[long pause]...then he said they weren't for sale yet.
So I said, but you'll be glad to call me when they're available, right?
"Ah...no. I can't do that."
Why not? [click...dialtone]
And that nicely sums up this whole rigged game. >>
That's interesting. I am sure that every single AP sold a multiple sets to dealers, telemarketers, good customers. The Mint, on the other hand, can't do much because they need the APs to distribute the bullions. Can you imagine selling 30M ASE through the US Mint website?
I am curious to see how this is going to end, if finally the pucks will find their way to the public or if we will have to wait few years to obtain the 2010 issue.
if u sent a email to mtb u are prob screwed ....they said they didnt get a ton of them so i faxed it and had my set confirmed in 5 minutes the guy was super nice and helpful ...im still not counting on anything until i get them in hand
Comments
<< <i>They have all been sold? I do not think so...... How many sets are actually out in the world as of right now? >>
I would repeat that probably 80-90% are sold already...I left some for the CF in NYC
<< <i>They have all been sold? I do not think so...... How many sets are actually out in the world as of right now? >>
I do. The AP's are not sitting on these. Their profit was limited, so no point in holding onto a set until they hit the $10,000 - $15,000 range
The other AP's in the know distributed them to the "Big Boys" and associates...
Take APMEX as a perfect example......they should have put 3000-4000 sets on sale last week.......what is the point of holding them. The ONLY explanation is that they are not holding them.....
The capsule excuse crap of the NYC CF is bogus. Since when is a bullion dealer worried about capsules for bullion coins. They would have just put them in flips and be done with it.
They should be burned to the ground!
(l8-)>>
Well, that will free up 2 hours of wasted time for me every morning. I don't think they ever picked up that phone. I have called since last Wednesday and never got a live person. I called the other number several times and somebody ALWAYS picked up. What a total BS story...
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
So...an open question to those who were calling for calm over the past couple of weeks...to not call the Mint...and to just give everyone a chance to "do the right thing"...is it time to call a spade a spade yet and admit that we've all been royally screwed?
What a joke..."remain calm"...wasn't that the line used by Kevin Bacon in Animal House just before the panicked mob flattened him?
<< <i>
<< <i> ...going to 2" 1/2 Diameter next year. >>
I have not seen that confirmed. Is it? >>
Confirmed as to being set in stone that it will occur? No. However, production problems and significant time loss problems as a result are well known. If savings in both, can be significantly realized by an immediate switch, IMHO, it will occur.
I think it's a done deal for it except for the official announcement. Given all the current puck problems, I would think they wouldn't announce a thing until the sales are completed because if they did, it would only increase the current 3 inch hysteria far more than it already is.
Another reason for the "instant rarity" status, IMHO, of the current 5 ounce offering.
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<< <i>Just curious. Has any other U.S. Coin or Coin Set rocketed in price like the America The Beautiful 5 oz Silver Sets?
Coin Vault $3999, HSN $4799, Chattanooga Coin Inc. $3989, and now Jim Hausman - Owner of The Gold Center calling for $15,000 - $20,000/set valuations.
IMHO, EBAY Flippers need to hold on to their sets and drive the prices even higher. How High Can They Fly? >>
Sure, other items have gone to the moon. The Reverse proofs (both gold and silver) went crazy. I bought 13 sets of the gold and sold the raw sets for up to 5500. I sold single graded reverse proofs for up to 6000 when gold was 800 per ounce. >>
Way to go BigDaddy, one of the great things about the hobby is that it can be self-sustaining, thats what I tell the wife at least
After almost 50 years of collecting, I seldom go out on a limb, predicting "great things" for any coin... or set of coins.
In this case though, I think the future is very likely to go through the roof and, perhaps, touch the sky (one set per customer, kept in truthful mind), in terms of return on investment. These 33,000 sets, IMHO, are going to become the highest ROI coins of the early 21st Century. They will dwarf the 1999 silver state quarters and, perhaps, the Jackie Robinson and the MS bimetallic $10. coins. I have never predicted moon money for anything BUT....for the first time, I think these really have that long term potential. I know I have a set coming soon and I've already received e-mails offering me 4x to 5x what I paid...and that's without PCGS grading, either regular or First Strike.
No sale, I'm keeping these because I want to enjoy them. I'm not interesting in flipping or getting a second set. For every first class sh*t who gets a second set through dubious means, that takes one set away from an average person who just wants one set to put away for themselves. I'd prosecute any potential flipper who is/are using others to purchase multiple sets and I'd give them actual jail time to reinforce their understanding the errors of their ways.
Before anyone accuses me of being an "ist," (as in communist/socialist/etc.), I say "know your isms," first and foremost because I sure as hades do. I just want as many people as possible to have a fair chance at getting the one darn set they really want, and not for flipping, as opposed to those who think absolute greed is good in a post Gordon Gecko era. I'm a conservative Republican who was a Reagan convention delegate and my favorite of the upcoming candidates would likely P.O most people because how strongly conservative they are. I just want real, honest to goodness, fairness on something as unique as this set of hockey pucks. >>
While I believe you are NOT hyping these and you really feel that way I am not as convinced about moon money over the long haul. Yes, they are hot now but I could see that melting away somewhat. I could see these settling down to a reasonable premium that will be greater than the rest but at 33K population and probably all in the 66 to 69 range I don't see them in the same category as the other high priced moderns. Now if a PCGS 70 set comes up that could be different. >>
I understand your thinking. In response I'll ask you to consider two things. The first is that this may be the only set of hockey pucks to be 3.0 inches as the Mint now has the authority to make all the rest 2.5 inches in order to minimize mint problems. The second is to try and imagine waaayyy back when the the two $50. PanPacs were first offered. Short to medium term, I doubt many collectors thought they'd be whatever terminology they used for "moon money," in those days. Add the same amount of time to this very first, and very limited set....regardless of whether you have a PCGS MS 64 or 67 or 70 (winning PowerBall may be more likely)....and I think a similarly long range perspective can (and does) put these particular 5 pucks in that potential.....very strongly so, I believe. >>
tcmitssr-
Thanks for the great posts today!
I think that the main factor limiting future appreciation of the bullion pucks will be the numismatic pucks (it they're every issued). I think that the bullion pucks will always do well, but will live in the shadows of the numismatic version, which will likely be incredible. The numismatic version should be 3" as well. Your thoughts on this? >>
thanks for your kind words.
I think it's highly likely there will never be 3 inch pucks again, they are too frail from all reports. That's why Congress passed late in the last session authorization to shrink them to 2.5 inches at the Mint's discretion. These first pucks will be truly unique and the series keys. Many may collect the 100,000 sets each year in the future but there will never be more than 33,000 complete sets, assuming they are kept together, not melted (if silver continues to rise) etc. Grandparents may split their 5 coins among 5 grandchildren over time as another example. These 33,000 sets will only be reduced/dissipated/dispersed over time, shrinking their actual and practical true numbers for complete sets.
Supply and demand. Short term supply in six months might make decisions now seem stupid but in six years, extremely smart and wise. >>
I thought that the "nimismatic" pucks have already been struck and are 3". Is this not correct? Of course, there is the issue of whether or not The Mint has the authority to strike them per the CW article previously referenced, etc...
<< <i><<prudential's answering machine just said " effective immediately, we have suspended sales of the.......... sorry for any inconvience! >>
So...an open question to those who were calling for calm over the past couple of weeks...to not call the Mint...and to just give everyone a chance to "do the right thing"...is it time to call a spade a spade yet and admit that we've all been royally screwed?
What a joke..."remain calm"...wasn't that the line used by Kevin Bacon in Animal House just before the panicked mob flattened him? >>
I don't think that they ever started sales. They are total B.S.
<< <i>As of seconds ago the message on the PB Financial Precious Metals phone has changed to: "Starting immediately, all sales of the America the Beautiful 5 oz silver coins have been suspended indefinitely"
Well, that will free up 2 hours of wasted time for me every morning. I don't think they ever picked up that phone. I have called since last Wednesday and never got a live person. I called the other number several times and somebody ALWAYS picked up. What a total BS story... >>
Actually, I know two people who got thru on Tuesday, the first day.
This is unfortunate. Whether you got thru or not, you had a chance, which was fair enough.
He took orders for 120 minutes a day, being generious, say selling 100 sets a day. Considering he did it for 3 days last week, then 2 1/2 days this week, that would come out to 550 sets.
I think someone got to him and said what the Hello are you doing all that work for, you can dump them this way.....
They'll give a free set to everyone who pays the appropriate bribes...I mean fees...to acquire Facebook stock!
<< <i>So...an open question to those who were calling for calm over the past couple of weeks...to not call the Mint...and to just give everyone a chance to "do the right thing"...is it time to call a spade a spade yet and admit that we've been royally screwed? >>
We were royally screwed before we even realized it. The Mint had a very limited number of choices in the first place, and once the pucks left the loading dock they had none. The reality is these things are like playoff tickets. You would think being a life-long fan that buys tickets throughout the years should be enough to get you a pair, but it isn't. These are being doled out like the ultimate tchotchke. The Mint, by limiting the profit potential of the AP's, put them in the position of rewarding their best customers (if you didn't get a set, you know where you rank with the AP's) and the AP's best customers (if you didn't get a set from your local coin store, you know where you rank with them. If they didn't get one, you know where your local coin store ranks with the AP's).
Let's face it - these are hot, they have the potential to get hotter and aside from a lucky few, these are not going to be sold to the general public. My guess is ATB now knows what they have and are calling their client list with a once in a lifetime chance to triple your money...
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When I explained that it was the exact number I had just called, the guy hung up on me. That pissed me off enough to call their general bullion trading desk number. I ended up complaining about my experience to a bullion trader, who really didn't want to hear it.
I'm inclined to think that the way to get a message through is to start calling their general business numbers until they start actually taking orders.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I don't know of anyone who purchased from MTB. What a joke they are also. I know of one major dealer who sent 300 sets to NGC grading. Funny how there is a limit of one per household. I here there are plenty to buy at the Fun Show if you have $2300.00 . >>
Do you have concrete proof of that?
<< <i>I've been calling Prudential for days. I've actually made it through on their phone line a few times, but each time - I only get their recording. I decided to play with their phone system, and made it into their general phone directory, so I chose a number at random. When I asked to be transfered to the guy taking orders, they wanted to give me the same exact number I had called to get the recording.
When I explained that it was the exact number I had just called, the guy hung up on me. That pissed me off enough to call their general bullion trading desk number. I ended up complaining about my experience to a bullion trader, who really didn't want to hear it.
I'm inclined to think that the way to get a message through is to start calling their general business numbers until they start actually taking orders. >>
This is another MTB in the making.
The more you push them, the worse it will get.
Back off and let them get organized.
They just told me that they aren't taking any more orders until the 18th. What a waste of time.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I've been calling Prudential for days. I've actually made it through on their phone line a few times, but each time - I only get their recording. I decided to play with their phone system, and made it into their general phone directory, so I chose a number at random. When I asked to be transfered to the guy taking orders, they wanted to give me the same exact number I had called to get the recording.
When I explained that it was the exact number I had just called, the guy hung up on me. That pissed me off enough to call their general bullion trading desk number. I ended up complaining about my experience to a bullion trader, who really didn't want to hear it.
I'm inclined to think that the way to get a message through is to start calling their general business numbers until they start actually taking orders. >>
This kind of thing is probably why they stopped taking orders.
The instructions were clear. Call the special number, if you win, you get a set, if not, you don't. what's so difficult. Now, probably because of people calling all the other numbers and complaining, they aren't selling any.
At least I had some kind of chance, now I have NONE.
Uh no...sorry...the time to wait patiently in line has long passed (I experienced that first-hand, literally, at MTB on Monday...and had a door slammed in my face). If these scumbags are going to jerk us around, then we should at least take some minimal pleasure in making them uncomfortable!
"Now be good little children and maybe we'll drop you a few crumbs from our plate..."
They can all go to hell!
<< <i>
<< <i>I've been calling Prudential for days. I've actually made it through on their phone line a few times, but each time - I only get their recording. I decided to play with their phone system, and made it into their general phone directory, so I chose a number at random. When I asked to be transfered to the guy taking orders, they wanted to give me the same exact number I had called to get the recording.
When I explained that it was the exact number I had just called, the guy hung up on me. That pissed me off enough to call their general bullion trading desk number. I ended up complaining about my experience to a bullion trader, who really didn't want to hear it.
I'm inclined to think that the way to get a message through is to start calling their general business numbers until they start actually taking orders. >>
This kind of thing is probably why they stopped taking orders.
The instructions were clear. Call the special number, if you win, you get a set, if not, you don't. what's so difficult. Now, probably because of people calling all the other numbers and complaining, they aren't selling any. >>
If these firms had no way to sell the pucks to the public per The Mint's rules, then THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE ORDERED THEM!! What Prudential did is NOT an effective way to sell 3K sets.
ya think?
The instructions were clear. Call the special number, if you win, you get a set, if not, you don't. what's so difficult. Now, probably because of people calling all the other numbers and complaining, they aren't selling any.
I call BS. I called that number for days. Every time I got through, I got a recording. BS. They are selling very few sets, while the big dealers are selling them at FUN. There is no distribution going on. One or two stray sets being confirmed here to determined collectors who pursue every possible avenue for a scant few sets - illustrates exactly the point. I call BS. Call it what it is.
This is another MTB in the making.
The more you push them, the worse it will get.
Back off and let them get organized.
Again, I call BS.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> ...going to 2" 1/2 Diameter next year. >>
I have not seen that confirmed. Is it? >>
No. They now have the right to make the change, but no obligation to do so. Having spent millions to perfect the three-inch format, why change?
TD >>
If it's not in their plans to do so, why did they request & obtained congressional approval to do so?
I believe it's a done deal for 2011 pucks. As 7over8 so often states "you can put a fork in it"
Who knows when they requested it? Had Congress given them the permission last March, the coins might have been available in quantity by now. They passed it in December.
Changing the format now would be silly.
TD
"Oh we can't possibly abide by these restrictive guidelines..."
"This is an enfringement of free enterprise...who are they to tell us anything..."
And then these same firms put various artificial hurdles in place for sales...no Internet...no telephone...no OTC...the need for preexisting accounts...no credit cards...etc....etc...
Gee...it might make one think that they REALLY DON'T WANT TO SELL THESE TO THE PUBLIC!
Hello...US Mint...are you out there?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> ...going to 2" 1/2 Diameter next year. >>
I have not seen that confirmed. Is it? >>
No. They now have the right to make the change, but no obligation to do so. Having spent millions to perfect the three-inch format, why change?
TD >>
If it's not in their plans to do so, why did they request & obtained congressional approval to do so?
I believe it's a done deal for 2011 pucks. As 7over8 so often states "you can put a fork in it"
Who knows when they requested it? Had Congress given them the permission last March, the coins might have been available in quantity by now. They passed it in December.
Changing the format now would be silly.
TD >>
I agree with the Capt, these coins will keep their 3" diameter.
The only change we may see will be the weight and purity information moved from the edge lettering moved to somewhere else.
<< <i>I think at this time it would be good to remember that these obsessively coveted objects are just disks of silver stamped with a modestly attractive image. Yes they are shiney but they will tarnish like so many material objects in this world. Come to think of it, these might look good tarnished, but I digress. Still, these are just metal disks so remember to keep your feet on the ground so there will be fewer regrets. >>
Very well said... or as Bongo Bongo once said in a forum thread....
IF YOU BUY WHAT YOU LIKE, AT A PRICE YOU CAN AFFORD AT THE TIME, THEN THINGS WILL BE EASIER
IF YOU BUY WHAT OTHER PEOPLE LIKE, BORROW TO FUND IT AND EXPECT MULTIPLES OF RETURN, THEN YOU ARE LIKELY TO BE UNHAPPY
BONGO SAY NEARLY EVERYTHING DEPRECIATES OVER TIME.BONGO WOULD NOT PAY $500 FOR A SILVER BELL THIS XMAS AND EXPECT IT TO BE WORTH $550 NEXT YEAR. BUT BONGO KNOW A SILVER BELL IS NOT OLD COIN.
OR IS IT.
BONGO MAYBE NOT SURPRISED THAT OLD COIN IS LIKE ANY OTHER LIMITED NON ESSENTIAL COMMODITY AND SUBJECT TO THE WHIMS OF TASTE AND MARKET.
PUT THE COIN IN BOOK AND ENJOY IT.
IF IT IS WORTH MORE WHEN YOU COME TO SELL IT, WELL DONE
IF NOT, THEN YOU HAVE HAD ENJOYMENT OUT OF IT.
REMEMBER THAT OLD COIN IS ONLY WORTH FEW DOLLARS IN PHYSICAL MATERIAL VALUE - THIS IS WHY VALUE IS AN ESOTERIC CONCEPT IN MANY WAYS AND IT MAY BE VULGAR TO ASSIGN ANY MONETARY VALUE TO OLD COIN
UNLESS YOU ARE A RUSSIAN OLIGARCH OR CHINESE SHODDY GOODS FACTORY OWNER
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I get tired of people running interference for the Mint and the greedy distributor network. Don't you? >>
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
They created this mess AND they are sitting on 6000 sets (assuming most are not on HSC) and they are not even letting
the public know WHY they are NOT SELLING these sets.
There are hiding behind their stupid AlertMe response and that allows them to say nothing.
MTB at least attempted to sell their inventory and found they were unprepared. APMEX already has public distribution ready.
Loves me some shiny!
Uh no...sorry...the time to wait patiently in line has long passed (I experienced that first-hand, literally, at MTB on Monday...and had a door slammed in my face). If these scumbags are going to jerk us around, then we should at least take some minimal pleasure in making them uncomfortable!
"Now be good little children and maybe we'll drop you a few crumbs from our plate..."
They can all go to hell!"
I'm with you on this Rich as I was there Monday too, albeit nowhere near as long as you were.
If there is no answer to this today, I will attempt to answer this tomorrow. (technology permitting)
I will arrive at the show first thing in the morning.
<< <i>I get tired of people running interference for the Mint and the greedy distributor network. Don't you? >>
Face it, everyone has the sin of greed at times. What we should try and do is to make sure we do is not have a double standard. Some people seem to patrol sins in some while excusing it in others. This is bad too. Every ox should have his right to eat wile treading the grain but gluttonous oxes get slaughtered.
Yes...absolutely true...and stepping back to speak as a person who suddenly lost both parents within a year of each other...I do agree on a macro level. Coins are things...as is money.
HOWEVER, constantly getting run over and abused gets old real fast and makes otherwide rationale people do irrational things.
And after the MTP incident on Monday, I was having heart palpitations in the cab ride back to my office...and my wife said that I looked like someone died.
The meek may inherit the earth...but I'm not sure I'm at that level of acceptance yet!
I knew it would happen.
Amen, brother!
PS...My wife minds me paying the price (that's her role in the equation)...but AMEN BROTHER!!!
<< <i>Public Enemy #1 is APMEX.
They created this mess AND they are sitting on 6000 sets (assuming most are not on HSC) and they are not even letting
the public know WHY they are NOT SELLING these sets.
There are hiding behind their stupid AlertMe response and that allows them to say nothing.
MTB at least attempted to sell their inventory and found they were unprepared. APMEX already has public distribution ready. >>
I disagree on this to a point. APMEX was selling 1000 sets to the public at the same price they were offering them to their dealers. That is the only time in this whole fiasco that the public and the dealers were on the same footing. APMEX has sold more to the 'public' than any other AP. I do think they are getting the other sets ready and are going to sell them all at once. They had air-tites for 1000 sets and nobody has 10,000 of these sitting around. I guess they could have put the remaining 600 of the initial 1000 sets sold on their website, then when they suspended sales after selling all of those, they would be crucified for not selling all of them at once, starting and then stopping, etc
when are the atb 5oz coins going back up
Welcome randy! Your request has been directed to the Buying from APMEX department. Please wait for our operator to answer your call. We appreciate your patience.
Call accepted by operator Cristy. Currently in room: Cristy, randy.
Cristy:
Hello Randy!
Cristy:
We still have not received definite word as to exactly when these will be offered on our site. You will receive a notification before they become available if you have signed up for an alert.
randy:
i just dont understand what the holdup is as u already have the cases for them and the packaging
randy:
i dont know how true this is but i am hearing alot of rumors that they are being sold by all the distributors under the table to dealers and HSN,QVC....as how did all these places come up with 300-400 sets each
Cristy:
I do not have information on that. We will be offering these coins under the guidelines established by the US Mint.
randy:
so i just want to try and understand i was told u had already sold like 380 sets so does that mean u will have like 2600 sets to still sell
Cristy:
I do not have an exact number. We did offer some sets for sale before the mint changed the guidelines. We were only able to honor the orders that fit within the mint guidelines.
randy:
ok ...there are just alot of rumors going around that some shady things are happening im nt saying withyou guys but som of the APs as there is a dealer at the FUN show in flordia that has over 300 sets and my local coin shop has more than 100 ....it is making the little guy think he has no shot
randy:
?
Cristy:
I can't comment on that. You may call our Customer Service Manager Jana Hale at (800) 375-9006 to discuss that further.
Cristy:
Is there anything else I can assist you with today?
Cristy has left the conversation. Currently in room: randy.
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I just called Dillon Gage and said that I wanted to buy 5 1 oz 2011 gold eagles.
The salesman told me that they haven't come out yet but that he would be happy to call me when they're available.
Then I said that I wanted to buy an ATB set...[long pause]...then he said they weren't for sale yet.
So I said, but you'll be glad to call me when they're available, right?
"Ah...no. I can't do that."
Why not? [click...dialtone]
And that nicely sums up this whole rigged game.
<< <i>Here's another test of an AP...
I just called Dillon Gage and said that I wanted to buy 5 1 oz 2011 gold eagles.
The salesman told me that they haven't come out yet but that he would be happy to call me when they're available.
Then I said that I wanted to buy an ATB set...[long pause]...then he said they weren't for sale yet.
So I said, but you'll be glad to call me when they're available, right?
"Ah...no. I can't do that."
Why not? [click...dialtone]
And that nicely sums up this whole rigged game. >>
That's interesting. I am sure that every single AP sold a multiple sets to dealers, telemarketers, good customers.
The Mint, on the other hand, can't do much because they need the APs to distribute the bullions.
Can you imagine selling 30M ASE through the US Mint website?
I am curious to see how this is going to end, if finally the pucks will find their way to the public or if we will have to wait few years to obtain the 2010 issue.
gdavis70,Musky1011,cohodk,cucamongacoin,robkool,chumley, drei3ree, Rampage,jmski52, commoncents05, dimples, dcarr, Grouchy, holeinone1972, JonMN34, mission16,meltdown,Omega,PQpeace, SeaEagleCoins, WaterSport, whatsup,Wizard1,WinLoseWin,MMR,49thStateofMind,SamByrd,Ahrensdad,BAJJERFAN,timrutnat,TWQG,CarlWohlforth,Ciccio,PreTurb,NumisMe,Patches,NotSure,luvcoins123,piecesofme,perryhall,nibanny,atarian,airplanenut