<< <i>While I collect Dollar sized coins I have absolutely no interest in collecting a 3" Medallion masquerading as a US Coin and priced as if it were a highly sought after collectible.
If folks want to jump on the Hype Train then go for it but the second someone, beit dealer or collector, compares the value of these bullion pieces to actual collectible US coinage, then folks need to wake up and smell the Hype which will be brewing by the bucket loads.
One thing about Hype Parties I've never cared for.................
............the bath you take when they are done. >>
Yup...just like some of the 1 oz Silver Art Bars that are selling for 3 or 4 times their melt. Or some painting selling for $60,000,000. >>
Trust Me OPA, a $60,000,000 painting is a one of a kind item, not 1 of 33,000.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>Reading Apmex's responses to the criticisms, I feel much better now about my decision not to buy them now. I have the money to buy a bunch. I'd rather not. Maybe later. This isn't fun. I probably will donate to Toys for Tots as well, and it will be a family decision. Merry Christmas, guys and gals! >>
Also is was Monaco that was selling them for 1000 a set. I thought the orignal poster saw it on tv and bought a set, the next morning when i called he offered me 10 sets 975.00 a set. Yes by the end of the day there price jumped to 1500, at least they started at the right price................ >>
Not to make you feel worse but I was surprised when you said the roll sets were going for $975/per set. The night before after I ordered my set I called again and they said the 10 sets were at 10000. I mulled it over and passed. Probably should have with those 20/20 hindsite glasses. Interesting that at least for you the next morning they lowered it again.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
COIN NEWS FLASH: Looking for Where to Buy 3 inch 5 ounce America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins? After receiving 80% of our traffic over the last 24 hours revolving around the three inch, five ounce America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins, we’ve decided to source a vendor for the coins. Collectors Alliance is currently offering full sets on a public presale for $400 per coin. They are only available via contacting them at 1-800 x 0. Mention Coinzine to receive $100 off the full set of 5.
As another psoter noted earlier in this thread, you can buy the set for $1900. Ouch.
I fear the graded versions in their pristine super-sized encapsulated state will be much higher. Ouch.
I can just imagine what the Mint's website is gonna be like when the numismatic versions go on sale next quarter.......
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>I can just imagine what the Mint's website is gonna be like when the numismatic versions go on sale next quarter....... >>
It will be insane. Especially with the price likely to be $220-$230/each. The Grand Canyon and Yellowstone issues might have extra collector appeal to many people as well.
I will be beating myself up pretty bad if the regular issues that just sold out at APMEX are $500/ea next year!
I'm a lurker here most of the time. I admit I ordered two sets of these, mostly based on the hype I read on these boards. This (to me) approaches being actually scary. I'll be happy if these retain their "value", and sad if they don't. I hope this isn't going to turn into one of those "had to learn the hard way" lessons. I hadn't even thought about first strike stuff, and grading. Wow! That's going to be another big outlay of dough.
<< <i>I can just imagine what the Mint's website is gonna be like when the numismatic versions go on sale next quarter....... >>
It will be insane. Especially with the price likely to be $220-$230/each. The Grand Canyon and Yellowstone issues might have extra collector appeal to many people as well.
I will be beating myself up pretty bad if the regular issues that just sold out at APMEX are $500/ea next year! >>
If they don't have a single item for the complete set, one might have to put each coin in their shopping cart, checkout, and then go back in again to try and get the others. I don't know if one will be able to successfully add all five items before checking out. It's going to be absolute bedlam.
<< <i>I'm a lurker here most of the time. I admit I ordered two sets of these, mostly based on the hype I read on these boards. This (to me) approaches being actually scary. I'll be happy if these retain their "value", and sad if they don't. I hope this isn't going to turn into one of those "had to learn the hard way" lessons. I hadn't even thought about first strike stuff, and grading. Wow! That's going to be another big outlay of dough. >>
Crazy prices CAN be sustained but IMO it takes the buying public to do that. In other words, someone has to want to pay way over spot for these pieces.
From what I've observed over the past 5 or 6 years, once the hype cools, so do the prices.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I just can not see the slavish mentality with regards to the mintage of 33,000 and these therefore being "bargains". The 95W ASE played to an enormous collector base to keep demand up. These so far have NO collector base (ie demand will not be there from a large collector base).
Therefore these are not relative bargains to the 95W. These smack of flipper's paradise and to be coins similar to the First Spouses. This is not hating on them (APMEX, Monaco, etc. and their buyers)but rather putting a reality check in. I think we have a temporary frenzy amongst flippers and they will IMO not find a large (and higher) secondary market. Price-dependent, I am out at above 1100 or so and that would be generous. Bless all who can turn a profit on flipping & I would think a race to get some slabbed 69 and 70s will bring another wave of flipping, and then a settling should occur, esp. with the numismatic versions coming....
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>I'm a lurker here most of the time. I admit I ordered two sets of these, mostly based on the hype I read on these boards. This (to me) approaches being actually scary. I'll be happy if these retain their "value", and sad if they don't. I hope this isn't going to turn into one of those "had to learn the hard way" lessons. I hadn't even thought about first strike stuff, and grading. Wow! That's going to be another big outlay of dough. >>
I understand your concern but at least you didn't buy 50 proof and 50 unc sets like I did stupidly in 2005. At least you will have some intrinsic value here.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>does this thread have the most posts in the least amount of time? >>
No, I think that was the first 1964-D dollar thread.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>I just can not see the slavish mentality with regards to the mintage of 33,000 and these therefore being "bargains". The 95W ASE played to an enormous collector base to keep demand up. These so far have NO collector base (ie demand will not be there from a large collector base).
Therefore these are not relative bargains to the 95W. These smack of flipper's paradise and to be coins similar to the First Spouses. This is not hating on them (APMEX, Monaco, etc. and their buyers)but rather putting a reality check in. I think we have a temporary frenzy amongst flippers and they will IMO not find a large (and higher) secondary market. Price-dependent, I am out at above 1100 or so and that would be generous. Bless all who can turn a profit on flipping & I would think a race to get some slabbed 69 and 70s will bring another wave of flipping, and then a settling should occur, esp. with the numismatic versions coming.... >>
I'm guessing you feel the same way about the numismatic version since its mintage will be 27K, which is comparable to the bullion version.
"The United States Mint is interested in ensuring that the coins minted and issued under its American Eagle and America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coin Programs are distributed effectively and efficiently and in a manner that ensures that the bullion coins are competitive with bullion products produced by other international mints. To accomplish this goal, the United States Mint seeks to utilize private sector distribution channels that ensure that the coins are:
A. As widely available to the public as possible; B. Bought and sold at prices/premiums that are in line with other similar silver bullion coin products in the marketplace; and C. Bought and sold in a manner that ensures relatively low transaction costs.
Due in part to the commodity-like, investment nature of these coins characterized by constantly fluctuating precious metal prices, the United States Mint has determined that the most effective and efficient means for bullion coin distribution is through the use of the well-established silver bullion coin distribution network in the private sector. This network consists of hundreds of coin and precious metals dealers, participating banks, brokerage companies and other financial intermediaries."
****
This being re-stated, I think that APMEX is in violation of their qualifying terms. Under (A) they have only made available one third of thier hoard. Under (B) they did not price in line with other similar bullion coin products. Instead they found a number where some buyers would pay the high price and priced them as such. They sold a whole third (1000 sets) at this pre-release price. Under (C) The transaction costs are the normal transaction costs.
From my understanding the mint entrusted 11 distrubutors with 3000 sets each to properly distribute these sets. The cost to distributors will be SPOT + $9.95/coin. This amounts to SPOT +$2 per ounce. Lets use the unreached but possible $30 ounce SPOT for easy calculations. That would mean that APMEX has $32 per ounce, $160 per coin and $800 per set invested. Now of course they have overhead costs but how much would that realistically be on one day of pre-sale purchases. I am sure that they are used to this overhead cost with thier other bullion items. I am sure that APMEX would have done fine WITHOUT this one NEW PROGRAM and therefore did not need to price these so high.
APMEX sold 1000 sets at $1395 per set. The cost for the buyer is of course higher when you add the credit card surcharge and the shipping/handling. This brought in $1,395,000 within 24 hours. Subtract the $800/set cost and they have about $595,000 gross profit. I remind you that this is only the first 1000. It sounds like the additional 2000 will be sold at a higher price. We are now talking about a Two Million Dollar gross profit given to APMEX by the government. Or more realistically APMEX took advantage of the government's distribution program and made a killing.
Then there is the discussion of having these graded. I am sure that the price will reflect the numistic value. We are now getting further and further away from a bullion dealer aren't we? It sounds like APMEX is now in the coin dealer business to me.
I agree with making a buck and I expect companies to make the most profit they can. I do not agree with a company taking advantage of the process and not abiding by the rules. APMEX would have made thier profit, The secondary market would have established the true value. APMEX should have priced in line with bullion and established a per order limit to meet thier customer needs.
If they wanted to win over their customers, they'd reprice the orders to something in-line with the other bullion they sell. Which is at about $33 -$36/oz right now depending upon what you buy.
Even taking the price from the higher priced stuff, it'd be $36 x 5 = $180.00 per coin or $900.00 per set.
Anybody that compares these pieces and their mintages to the 95-W Proof SAE is just blowing hype since the two have absolutely no comparison other than the number.
If you want comparison, look no further than the First Spouse coins, Washington and Adams, which sold out on the first day in three hours causing the US Mint to place ordering limits on subsequent versions.
The First Spouse coins were initially offered at $419 and were quickly selling on eBay for $580. Of course this was when gold was at a little less than $600 an ounce but I think you get the picture.
The frenzy was hot and furious. Only 40,000 minted across both proof and ms offerings. These were gonna be THE coin to have! Hags are now $1000 EACH !!!!!!
Yet today, a mere 3 1/2 years later, MS70 Martha Washingtons can be had for $800 on a bad day. The Louis Adams with a mintage of a mere 4,223 coins in MS69 can be had for a $100 over melt. MS70's are a little over a grand but then they sold for $519 each since gold was on the rise! Today, the next First Spouse release passes like a fart in the wind and nobody seems to really care. Mintages are super low but.............nobody seems to care! Wow! That series sure panned out!
The entire point being, low mintage means NOTHING for pieces which have limited interest and I just cannot believe that your typical US Coin Collector will look at these ATB Hockey Pucks as anything other than bullion curiosities.
My advice is for those that got in on this $1,395 offer: Sell as soon as the prices start to peak and the tide starts shifting downward or you just might end up holding onto some expensive bullion.
If your looking for low mintage collectibles as an investment, buy something with a proven track record, not a new issue.
PS, Somebody run the bath water, I'm thinking we're gonna need it!
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Batman23, good job on finding the qualifications for the bulk purchasers. It appears to me that probably all of the distributors will be in violation of these terms. What about the distributors who have stated they are submitting ALL of their allotment for grading? Looks to me that in effect they have not offered any at all to the public (until obviously they can soak even more cash out of puchasers later).
Sorry all... but the Mint effectively gave a gift.... and a monopoly.... on these items. They have the market cornered for whatever price they want. (of course, it is up to the public whether they want to spend that amount or not).
A gift.... of over a million dollars to each distributor.
Somebody please update the title of the thread to the past tense.....
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I don't think you can compare this to the early spouses. These coins will be the lowest mintages of this whole series. The poor planning, poor release and hurried mintages are going to keep this uniquely low. This set will attract non-coin collectors, the parks are meaningful to many people. It is a sad fact that three of our most popular parks, Yellowstone, Yosemite, and the Grand Canyon got short changed in this mess. Even the low mintage Julia Tyler is doing very well.
One last thing, some of the coming designs,specifically Olympic and Glacier are beautiful. Even the designs on these first year issues are poor in my opinion but they will still be the keys. And yes these are way more expensive as a set than I thought they'd be but individually in the future many more individuals will be able to afford them than can afford the spouses. As more people are exposed to this series I think it will attract more, not less interested people.
<< <i>for all the discussion Ampex has managed to sell out of all there coins in 24 hours. Market demand. >>
Exactly ... it's a matter of supply & demand. If you did not purchase a set because you feel that you're being gouged, well, that's your business, but stop preaching to the ones who did. I suspect a majority of buyers were willing to take the risk and Monday will indicate if their hunch was correct or wrong.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
If they don't have a single item for the complete set, one might have to put each coin in their shopping cart, checkout, and then go back in again to try and get the others. I don't know if one will be able to successfully add all five items before checking out. It's going to be absolute bedlam.
The strategy may choose which one you want and go for it and not try to get all 5 in your shopping cart because you most likely will not get any of them, then go back and do it again. Try to get someone else to do the same thing. One person is not going to get all 5 singles. If you get lucky and get through by phone you have a chance for all 5.
I think the reverse proof gold at 10K though took a day to sell out but it was also priced at $2600 which was unafordable for some collectors. I liken this reverse proof to these Silver Rounds as far as the mania that is involved.
<< <i>Somebody please update the title of the thread to the past tense..... >>
Thank you jessewu
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>the average for our group was only 2 sets per... on average. >>
Do you suppose the people in your group were planning on putting together two sets each? Or keeping one and selling the other for a profit? >>
Note that MsMorrisine had the buyers and a waiting list before the Mint announced the radically lower mintage. So I would say very few were in it for flipping. >>
I disagree.....there was enough hype early on, and folks were planning to play the hype/flip game.
1,000 have sold. How many more repeats of this scene do you think will happen before the ebay and flipper pricing drives the price high enough to kill off demand? 32,000 more to go.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>the average for our group was only 2 sets per... on average. >>
Do you suppose the people in your group were planning on putting together two sets each? Or keeping one and selling the other for a profit? >>
Note that MsMorrisine had the buyers and a waiting list before the Mint announced the radically lower mintage. So I would say very few were in it for flipping. >>
I disagree.....there was enough hype early on, and folks were planning to play the hype/flip game. >>
there's lies
d*mn lies
and statistics.
mean - average - was really 1.865 rounded up to 2 mode - largest count of a single amount - was 1 (29 of 52 people) median - 1
all of these are "types of averaging"
the most representative of the "middle" of the data set should be chosen as the average of the data set.
I would chose the mode - 1
Don't forget this was back when people were thinking 100k of each and under $200 and trade like bullion.
There were speculators, but as mentioned before, almost all were in it to buy for themselves.
The entire point being, low mintage means NOTHING for pieces which have limited interest and I just cannot believe that your typical US Coin Collector will look at these ATB Hockey Pucks as anything other than bullion curiosities.
The irony is that the only way that anything can be low mintage is for it to be of limited interest originally (except for the ocasional Mint restrictions). What makes them valuable is when that interest changes.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
To all the people who say the bottom will drop out, I think the 5 oz, and 25 oz of Silver is not sinking in. This is a lot of silver. And they are priced the same as the 1oz Proof. 5 Proofs will cost the same. Is anyone saying don't buy the proof 1oz because you'll get it for half off next year, and only fools are paying $56?
And there are millions of 1oz proofs, that all look the same, except for the year. These pucks are a one time never to repeat, first year, all years will be higher, end of year anomoly.
<< <i>More from APMEX stating that they have been selling them to other dealers for the same prices as they are offering but then how in the hell is one TV Outfit sell them for $1100:
More from APMEX:
I came here to try and offer some insight why we came out with the prices we did. Then I asked for what you would do. All I got was more complaints... Should I have just sold these wholesale at $1,500 and not offered any to our customers? Should I have sold an item which has a mintage of 33,000 for $0.29 cents over mint cost (Comparing them to the 30,000,000 SAE's the mint will be making this year.) Then the greedy trolls out there would have come in and bought them all us and sold them on ebay for $1,700 each... (Anyone who bought them would be out of luck unless you were really quick on the trigger...) Should I have sold 1,000 at a premium less than wholesale to our customers? ($1,395 vs. $1,500 or more?) Give me some options vs. just more complaints... We asked our self all the questions you are posing here and we came up with our solution. We knew we would be damned if we did sell at this price and damned if we didn't sell any. How do you win here? In the end, we have to make a market here. We have sold 800 in 19 hours... Seems to me if we sold them for less greedy folks would have come in and ordered hundreds of sets and they would be out in minutes or hours. The fact is, we sold to dealers at this same level... If we offered them for more money, we would have looked worse. So, I will go back to my original question. Put YOURSELF in our shoes and give me some feedback on how YOU would have handled it...
I suggest people start sending out emails to the mint concerning the current pricing on these. Does anyone have the e-mail so that i can send a short note to them. >>
Then the greedy trolls out there would have come in and bought them all us and sold them on ebay for $1,700 each...
This is a guy who got them for $9.75 over melt (per coin) from the Mint and sold them for $132.10 over melt (per coin). I wonder what he thinks that it takes to become a "greedy troll" these days?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>While I collect Dollar sized coins I have absolutely no interest in collecting a 3" Medallion masquerading as a US Coin and priced as if it were a highly sought after collectible.
If folks want to jump on the Hype Train then go for it but the second someone, beit dealer or collector, compares the value of these bullion pieces to actual collectible US coinage, then folks need to wake up and smell the Hype which will be brewing by the bucket loads.
One thing about Hype Parties I've never cared for.................
............the bath you take when they are done. >>
Yup...just like some of the 1 oz Silver Art Bars that are selling for 3 or 4 times their melt. Or some painting selling for $60,000,000. >>
Trust Me OPA, a $60,000,000 painting is a one of a kind item, not 1 of 33,000.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>Reading Apmex's responses to the criticisms, I feel much better now about my decision not to buy them now. I have the money to buy a bunch. I'd rather not. Maybe later. This isn't fun. I probably will donate to Toys for Tots as well, and it will be a family decision. Merry Christmas, guys and gals! >>
Not to make you feel worse but I was surprised when you said the roll sets were going for $975/per set. The night before after I ordered my set I called again and they said the 10 sets were at 10000. I mulled it over and passed. Probably should have with those 20/20 hindsite glasses. Interesting that at least for you the next morning they lowered it again.
After receiving 80% of our traffic over the last 24 hours revolving around the three inch, five ounce America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins, we’ve decided to source a vendor for the coins. Collectors Alliance is currently offering full sets on a public presale for $400 per coin. They are only available via contacting them at 1-800 x 0. Mention Coinzine to receive $100 off the full set of 5.
As another psoter noted earlier in this thread, you can buy the set for $1900. Ouch.
I fear the graded versions in their pristine super-sized encapsulated state will be much higher. Ouch.
Miles
Well they aren't selling for $60,000,000 either, at least not yet.
<< <i>I can just imagine what the Mint's website is gonna be like when the numismatic versions go on sale next quarter....... >>
Any early guesses on the price?
<< <i>Yes. low $200s $200-250tops >>
I will go a tad higher at $275 and $1350 for a set with a nice presentation.
<< <i>I can just imagine what the Mint's website is gonna be like when the numismatic versions go on sale next quarter....... >>
It will be insane. Especially with the price likely to be $220-$230/each. The Grand Canyon and Yellowstone issues might have extra collector appeal to many people as well.
I will be beating myself up pretty bad if the regular issues that just sold out at APMEX are $500/ea next year!
<< <i>
<< <i>I can just imagine what the Mint's website is gonna be like when the numismatic versions go on sale next quarter....... >>
It will be insane. Especially with the price likely to be $220-$230/each. The Grand Canyon and Yellowstone issues might have extra collector appeal to many people as well.
I will be beating myself up pretty bad if the regular issues that just sold out at APMEX are $500/ea next year!
If they don't have a single item for the complete set, one might have to put each coin in their shopping cart, checkout, and then go back in again to try and get the others. I don't know if one will be able to successfully add all five items before checking out. It's going to be absolute bedlam.
I think I'll get 25 oz of bullion elsewhere and spend the tip as a free fishing trip instead.
there will be others real soon. I'd rather have graded ones anyway - at least some idea of quality
but I wouldnt in the least be upset if I only had the USM issues, they will be the keys anyway.
get ready for a limit of 1 each.
<< <i>I'm a lurker here most of the time. I admit I ordered two sets of these, mostly based on the hype I read on these boards. This (to me) approaches being actually scary. I'll be happy if these retain their "value", and sad if they don't. I hope this isn't going to turn into one of those "had to learn the hard way" lessons. I hadn't even thought about first strike stuff, and grading. Wow! That's going to be another big outlay of dough. >>
Crazy prices CAN be sustained but IMO it takes the buying public to do that. In other words, someone has to want to pay way over spot for these pieces.
From what I've observed over the past 5 or 6 years, once the hype cools, so do the prices.
The name is LEE!
Therefore these are not relative bargains to the 95W. These smack of flipper's paradise and to be coins similar to the First Spouses. This is not hating on them (APMEX, Monaco, etc. and their buyers)but rather putting a reality check in.
I think we have a temporary frenzy amongst flippers and they will IMO not find a large (and higher) secondary market. Price-dependent, I am out at above 1100 or so and that would be generous. Bless all who can turn a profit on flipping & I would think a race to get some slabbed 69 and 70s will bring another wave of flipping, and then a settling should occur, esp. with the numismatic versions coming....
Well, just Love coins, period.
My suggestion is "flippers beware."
buy for yourself, not to flip.
<< <i>I'm a lurker here most of the time. I admit I ordered two sets of these, mostly based on the hype I read on these boards. This (to me) approaches being actually scary. I'll be happy if these retain their "value", and sad if they don't. I hope this isn't going to turn into one of those "had to learn the hard way" lessons. I hadn't even thought about first strike stuff, and grading. Wow! That's going to be another big outlay of dough. >>
I understand your concern but at least you didn't buy 50 proof and 50 unc sets like I did stupidly in 2005. At least you will have some intrinsic value here.
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes. low $200s $200-250tops >>
I will go a tad higher at $275 and $1350 for a set with a nice presentation. >>
<< <i>does this thread have the most posts in the least amount of time? >>
No, I think that was the first 1964-D dollar thread.
<< <i>I just can not see the slavish mentality with regards to the mintage of 33,000 and these therefore being "bargains". The 95W ASE played to an enormous collector base to keep demand up. These so far have NO collector base (ie demand will not be there from a large collector base).
Therefore these are not relative bargains to the 95W. These smack of flipper's paradise and to be coins similar to the First Spouses. This is not hating on them (APMEX, Monaco, etc. and their buyers)but rather putting a reality check in.
I think we have a temporary frenzy amongst flippers and they will IMO not find a large (and higher) secondary market. Price-dependent, I am out at above 1100 or so and that would be generous. Bless all who can turn a profit on flipping & I would think a race to get some slabbed 69 and 70s will bring another wave of flipping, and then a settling should occur, esp. with the numismatic versions coming.... >>
I'm guessing you feel the same way about the numismatic version since its mintage will be 27K, which is comparable to the bullion version.
"The United States Mint is interested in ensuring that the coins minted and issued under its American Eagle and America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coin Programs are distributed effectively and efficiently and in a manner that ensures that the bullion coins are competitive with bullion products produced by other international mints. To accomplish this goal, the United States Mint seeks to utilize private sector distribution channels that ensure that the coins are:
A. As widely available to the public as possible;
B. Bought and sold at prices/premiums that are in line with other similar silver bullion coin products in the marketplace; and
C. Bought and sold in a manner that ensures relatively low transaction costs.
Due in part to the commodity-like, investment nature of these coins characterized by constantly fluctuating precious metal prices, the United States Mint has determined that the most effective and efficient means for bullion coin distribution is through the use of the well-established silver bullion coin distribution network in the private sector. This network consists of hundreds of coin and precious metals dealers, participating banks, brokerage companies and other financial intermediaries."
****
This being re-stated, I think that APMEX is in violation of their qualifying terms. Under (A) they have only made available one third of thier hoard.
Under (B) they did not price in line with other similar bullion coin products. Instead they found a number where some buyers would pay the high price and priced them as such. They sold a whole third (1000 sets) at this pre-release price.
Under (C) The transaction costs are the normal transaction costs.
From my understanding the mint entrusted 11 distrubutors with 3000 sets each to properly distribute these sets. The cost to distributors will be SPOT + $9.95/coin. This amounts to SPOT +$2 per ounce. Lets use the unreached but possible $30 ounce SPOT for easy calculations. That would mean that APMEX has $32 per ounce, $160 per coin and $800 per set invested. Now of course they have overhead costs but how much would that realistically be on one day of pre-sale purchases. I am sure that they are used to this overhead cost with thier other bullion items. I am sure that APMEX would have done fine WITHOUT this one NEW PROGRAM and therefore did not need to price these so high.
APMEX sold 1000 sets at $1395 per set. The cost for the buyer is of course higher when you add the credit card surcharge and the shipping/handling. This brought in $1,395,000 within 24 hours. Subtract the $800/set cost and they have about $595,000 gross profit. I remind you that this is only the first 1000. It sounds like the additional 2000 will be sold at a higher price. We are now talking about a Two Million Dollar gross profit given to APMEX by the government. Or more realistically APMEX took advantage of the government's distribution program and made a killing.
Then there is the discussion of having these graded. I am sure that the price will reflect the numistic value. We are now getting further and further away from a bullion dealer aren't we? It sounds like APMEX is now in the coin dealer business to me.
I agree with making a buck and I expect companies to make the most profit they can. I do not agree with a company taking advantage of the process and not abiding by the rules. APMEX would have made thier profit, The secondary market would have established the true value. APMEX should have priced in line with bullion and established a per order limit to meet thier customer needs.
Lets see what thier next 2000 sets bring
I knew it would happen.
Last time I looked this thread had less than 50 posts. What was that, an hour ago?
Anything new?
Even taking the price from the higher priced stuff, it'd be $36 x 5 = $180.00 per coin or $900.00 per set.
If you want comparison, look no further than the First Spouse coins, Washington and Adams, which sold out on the first day in three hours causing the US Mint to place ordering limits on subsequent versions.
The First Spouse coins were initially offered at $419 and were quickly selling on eBay for $580. Of course this was when gold was at a little less than $600 an ounce but I think you get the picture.
The frenzy was hot and furious. Only 40,000 minted across both proof and ms offerings. These were gonna be THE coin to have! Hags are now $1000 EACH !!!!!!
Yet today, a mere 3 1/2 years later, MS70 Martha Washingtons can be had for $800 on a bad day. The Louis Adams with a mintage of a mere 4,223 coins in MS69 can be had for a $100 over melt. MS70's are a little over a grand but then they sold for $519 each since gold was on the rise!
Today, the next First Spouse release passes like a fart in the wind and nobody seems to really care. Mintages are super low but.............nobody seems to care! Wow! That series sure panned out!
The entire point being, low mintage means NOTHING for pieces which have limited interest and I just cannot believe that your typical US Coin Collector will look at these ATB Hockey Pucks as anything other than bullion curiosities.
My advice is for those that got in on this $1,395 offer: Sell as soon as the prices start to peak and the tide starts shifting downward or you just might end up holding onto some expensive bullion.
If your looking for low mintage collectibles as an investment, buy something with a proven track record, not a new issue.
PS, Somebody run the bath water, I'm thinking we're gonna need it!
The name is LEE!
Sorry all... but the Mint effectively gave a gift.... and a monopoly.... on these items. They have the market cornered for whatever price they want. (of course, it is up to the public whether they want to spend that amount or not).
A gift.... of over a million dollars to each distributor.
One last thing, some of the coming designs,specifically Olympic and Glacier are beautiful. Even the designs on these first year issues are poor in my opinion but they will still be the keys. And yes these are way more expensive as a set than I thought they'd be but individually in the future many more individuals will be able to afford them than can afford the spouses. As more people are exposed to this series I think it will attract more, not less interested people.
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
I, for one, am not happy about the $1mm+ gift given exclusively to distributors of these coins (assuming pricing is in line with the latest offering).
But I am also not falling into the trap of buying these for twice silver either. They can keep them.
<< <i>for all the discussion Ampex has managed to sell out of all there coins in 24 hours. Market demand. >>
Flipper demand!
<< <i>for all the discussion Ampex has managed to sell out of all there coins in 24 hours. Market demand. >>
Exactly ... it's a matter of supply & demand. If you did not purchase a set because you feel that you're being gouged, well, that's your business, but stop preaching to the ones who did. I suspect a majority of buyers were willing to take the risk and Monday will indicate if their hunch was correct or wrong.
The strategy may choose which one you want and go for it and not try to get all 5 in your shopping cart because you most likely will not get any of them, then go back and do it again. Try to get someone else to do the same thing. One person is not going to get all 5 singles. If you get lucky and get through by phone you have a chance for all 5.
I think the reverse proof gold at 10K though took a day to sell out but it was also priced at $2600 which was unafordable for some collectors. I liken this reverse proof to these Silver Rounds as far as the mania that is involved.
Box of 20
<< <i>Somebody please update the title of the thread to the past tense..... >>
Thank you jessewu
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<< <i>
<< <i>the average for our group was only 2 sets per... on average. >>
Do you suppose the people in your group were planning on putting together two sets each? Or keeping one and selling the other for a profit? >>
Note that MsMorrisine had the buyers and a waiting list before the Mint announced the radically lower mintage. So I would say very few were in it for flipping. >>
I disagree.....there was enough hype early on, and folks were planning to play the hype/flip game.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I knew it would happen.
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<< <i>
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<< <i>the average for our group was only 2 sets per... on average. >>
Do you suppose the people in your group were planning on putting together two sets each? Or keeping one and selling the other for a profit? >>
Note that MsMorrisine had the buyers and a waiting list before the Mint announced the radically lower mintage. So I would say very few were in it for flipping. >>
I disagree.....there was enough hype early on, and folks were planning to play the hype/flip game. >>
there's lies
d*mn lies
and statistics.
mean - average - was really 1.865 rounded up to 2
mode - largest count of a single amount - was 1 (29 of 52 people)
median - 1
all of these are "types of averaging"
the most representative of the "middle" of the data set should be chosen as the average of the data set.
I would chose the mode - 1
Don't forget this was back when people were thinking 100k of each and under $200 and trade like bullion.
There were speculators, but as mentioned before, almost all were in it to buy for themselves.
The irony is that the only way that anything can be low mintage is for it to be of limited interest originally (except for the ocasional Mint restrictions). What makes them valuable is when that interest changes.
And there are millions of 1oz proofs, that all look the same, except for the year. These pucks are a one time never to repeat, first year, all years will be higher, end of year anomoly.
<< <i>More from APMEX stating that they have been selling them to other dealers for the same prices as they are offering but then how in the hell is one TV Outfit sell them for $1100:
More from APMEX:
I came here to try and offer some insight why we came out with the prices we did. Then I asked for what you would do. All I got was more complaints... Should I have just sold these wholesale at $1,500 and not offered any to our customers? Should I have sold an item which has a mintage of 33,000 for $0.29 cents over mint cost (Comparing them to the 30,000,000 SAE's the mint will be making this year.) Then the greedy trolls out there would have come in and bought them all us and sold them on ebay for $1,700 each... (Anyone who bought them would be out of luck unless you were really quick on the trigger...) Should I have sold 1,000 at a premium less than wholesale to our customers? ($1,395 vs. $1,500 or more?) Give me some options vs. just more complaints... We asked our self all the questions you are posing here and we came up with our solution. We knew we would be damned if we did sell at this price and damned if we didn't sell any. How do you win here? In the end, we have to make a market here. We have sold 800 in 19 hours... Seems to me if we sold them for less greedy folks would have come in and ordered hundreds of sets and they would be out in minutes or hours. The fact is, we sold to dealers at this same level... If we offered them for more money, we would have looked worse. So, I will go back to my original question. Put YOURSELF in our shoes and give me some feedback on how YOU would have handled it...
I suggest people start sending out emails to the mint concerning the current pricing on these. Does anyone have the e-mail so that i can send a short note to them. >>
What forum is the guy from APMEX posting on?
This is a guy who got them for $9.75 over melt (per coin) from the Mint and sold them for $132.10 over melt (per coin). I wonder what he thinks that it takes to become a "greedy troll" these days?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
What forum is the guy from APMEX posting on? >>
Not ATS