<< <i>I think it's time the US Mint reconsiders how they are doing this distribution thing. Distributors selling at nearly double melt somehow does not seem to be the original intent on how the system was set up. I thought the intent was for the distributors to resell at reasonable levels.......
I don't think the mint has any say in the prices that the bullion distributors sell them for, but they may limited them in the future to the bullion distributors that are price gouging. By law they have to distibute these as bullion so they have no choice. I expect the set from the mint to sell for $995 if silver is at $30. This is there usual premium mark up on all their offerings. >>
Very, very good points. Can you image the outrage if the US Mint were to begin price gouging? People's heads would explode. I doubt the Mint would want to have that headache.
If we all start to complain with emails to the mint they might do something for the future. For what its worth here is the reply from APMEX on another forum why they priced them the way they did:
<< <i>Well here goes me trying to explain the 5 oz coin pricing.... First, there are 11 authorized purchasers Tulving is not one of them. All dealers that I know of only received 3,000 sets each. We have seen these sets trade wholesale for $1500 per set (hundreds of sets at a time) We decided to market 1,000 sets at $1395 to those who signed up for them through our market alert system. Those are the ones who received the email tonight. (first shot). We sold 80 sets in 20 minutes before the Email even went out. Now 5 hours into it we have sold about 400 sets. We wanted to give our customers first shot which we have done. I expect these sets will be one if the hottest items from the mint in years. We are selling them for $100 less per set than what they are trading for wholesale. ($100,000 discount) So while we are setting what we believe to be the market price, it is still below wholesale. I expect these sets to sellout very fast and be in high demand over the years to come. >>
The also posted this :
<< <i>So as a business, how would you all have done this? Here are the facts: 1. We have thousands of people interested in these products. 2. We have dealers bidding to pay $1500 per set. (by the hundreds) 3. We see sets and coins selling in the retail market for $1,500 - $1,800 per set. 4. Other distributors have already sold out of there full allocation. 5. There are only 33,000 bullion sets available, we only received 3,000 sets. 6. We posted 1,000 sets available to those who signed up for them on a first come first served basis. 7. We are required to make a market which we have. 8. We have expenses, such as employees, real estate, insurance, benefits, marketing, etc. To cover. We spoke about this internally for 3 days before setting our price. We think we treated our customers very fair in this offering. However, there are smart folks out there and I welcome your suggestions on how you would have done this if you were in our shoes knowing some of the information you now know...... This is not a sarcastic response, I am truly interested in hearing how you the owner of a business would have handled this situation.... Please post your ideas here..... >>
<< <i>It's unacceptable that the mint distributors will be charging about double what it cost them for these, and it might put pressure on the mint to revise the system. Like most previous posters in this thread, I've decided not to buy, because:
1. The starting price after distributor superprofit is excessive. 2. The designs of the views are plain blah. Unattractive. 3. The bust of Washington on the obverse is okay for a smallish quarter coin, but it gains nothing when enlarged. 4. The symbolic 25 cents face value is ridiculously low. 5. Coming from tubes, these coins may suffer from contact with each other, beyond mint quality control problems. 6. Distributors will be able to cherry pick any that are unscathed. 7. Storage, display, and grading if desired, will entail added expense. 8. The individually packaged versions of these, with better chance of nicer condition, are coming out soon, to be sold directly to the public in early 2011. 9. Too many coin products from the mint aimed at collectors are being released. 10. Supersized coins like these haven't previously attracted much of a following from numismatists. >>
the law requires these to be sold through the current bullion channels. the law also mandated the face value of 25 cents.
the mint will sell these as bullion. >>
Hmmmm
The ATB Legislation states:
"‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—In addition to the authorized dealers utilized by the Secretary in distributing bullion coins and solely for purposes of distributing bullion coins issued under this subsection,"
However, "authorized dealers" is not mentioned in the "“Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985"
but instead that legislation states:
"“(2)(A) The Secretary shall sell the coins minted under this subsection to the public at a price equal to the market value of the bullion at the time of sale, plus the cost of minting, marketing, and distributing such coins (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, and promotional and overhead expenses)."
Earlier legislation on bullion title "Statue of Liberty-Ellis Island Coin Act" of 1985, under Title II "Liberty Coins" (Silver American Eagles) states:
I think the distribution program was setup in 1985 by the Secretary of the Treasury Staff as a method of selling millions of coins which would minimize the Treasury Departments costs since the Internet hadn't been invented by Al Gore yet.
I don't believe for a second that the "Authorized Dealers" concept is an actual point of the law except as a reference to current distribution methods established by the Treasury Department back in 1985.
In other words, selling millions of coins on a piece meal basis was not cost effective back in 1985 but is quite easily accomplished today via the internet and web sites.
The situation governing the price of these "Hockey Pucks" is certainly allowable in todays enviroment but I don't believe it's governed by point of law but by point of "thats how we've always done it."
Scan through the list. Since when do distributors 10-14 represent the American Public? Edited to put the correct img in.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>We are selling them for $100 less per set than what they are trading for wholesale. ($100,000 discount) So while we are setting what we believe to be the market price, it is still below wholesale.
We have expenses, such as employees, real estate, insurance, benefits, marketing, etc. To cover. >>
So we are to believe they are foregoing a potential extra $100k in profit so they can sell these to their online customers, and at the same time ranting about the justifications of their pricing due to expenses. Please spare me!
"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation [...] Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights." - Alan Greenspan
I assume there will be a high demand for these bullion coins by some collectors for graded coins but I also think that the bulk coins bought now will have been cherry picked and I would be lucky to get a 68. IMHO no chance of getting a 70 from AMPEX or anyone else, if any even exist with a coin of this size. I am thinking the flip potential for the bulk 2010 coins will be over in a few months and long term price increases will not be that great for the 2010 bullions except for the highly graded coins. Next year you will be able to buy all of the bullion version you want for slightly over spot. I’m probably dreaming but if I can get a set next week at $200 a coin max I will. I will definitely be on the computer/phone next spring for a all of the sets I can get of the numismatic version, which will truly be a Longacre frothy frenzy. Good luck to all!
<< <i>We are selling them for $100 less per set than what they are trading for wholesale. ($100,000 discount) So while we are setting what we believe to be the market price, it is still below wholesale.
We have expenses, such as employees, real estate, insurance, benefits, marketing, etc. To cover. >>
So we are to believe they are foregoing a potential extra $100k in profit so they can sell these to their online customers, and at the same time ranting about the justifications of their pricing due to expenses. Please spare me! >>
Do they price all their silver bullion at $55/oz ?
I want them, I bought them. And while I agree this years designs are lacking, from what I've seen some of next years are beautiful, especially Glacier and Olympic National Parks. If I hadn't of bought them I'd regret it. I think this whole bullion system stinks but it's what we've got. I'll probably still take a shot at the numismatic versions and keep the best.
This may be the straw that knocks me off of my quest to get both the the unc and proof First Spouses. Finally, in my older years I have the opportunity to get some of these higher priced coins but it bothers me a lot that the mint seems so driven to supply really high end stuff that requires such an outlay to acquire. These would have been so much nicer in a Silver Dollar size coin. The Parks may have been established to keep the rich from buying up all our National Treasures but these Park coins sure weren't. Teddy Roosevelt would definitely not approve.
I loaded a set into my cart and then...stopped. I just can't stomach it - not so much for the exhorbitant price, but for the fact that I would be validating and accepting the price gouging that APMEX is sticking to us. I can wait. I really only wanted a Yosemite and Grand Canyon anyway. I'll buy a set when the mint sells the P versions next year. I may buy singles of the bullion versions in the aftermarket. Recent sales on Ebay were $300 (they are a little higher now). With Ebay bucks, ebates and CC rebate, I should easily be able to get the two I want for less than $300 once the frothy frenzy dies down. If not, I can wait for the P versions...
<< <i>Apmex just lost any future business from me. And that's not being sarcastic either.
The 2008 Plats that I got from them were scuffed and not gradable, by the way. >>
Youre not the only one....look at other forums such as www.goldismoney2.com and Kitco and you will see.Theyve lost my business and my father's as well after I told him of the pricing
Finally, in my older years I have the opportunity to get some of these higher priced coins but it bothers me a lot that the mint seems so driven to supply really high end stuff that requires such an outlay to acquire.
Look around the Mint site. There are a lot of lower cost items available. I think it may seem that way because the higher priced stuff gets most of the attention. Would you be happier if they only sold cheap stuff?
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
In response to Apmex statement asking for how we would have recommended these be sold.... guess I don't really have an answer at this time.
------ but what I do know, the way it has gone right now, this amounted to over a million dollar 'gift' from the US Mint to each distributor. Do the math.... 3,000 sets of 5 coins, at cost of melt plus $2/coin...... subtract their cost from what they are selling them for..... automatic ca ching ca ching. Thanks US Mint. This one was definitely for the big boys.
While I collect Dollar sized coins I have absolutely no interest in collecting a 3" Medallion masquerading as a US Coin and priced as if it were a highly sought after collectible.
If folks want to jump on the Hype Train then go for it but the second someone, beit dealer or collector, compares the value of these bullion pieces to actual collectible US coinage, then folks need to wake up and smell the Hype which will be brewing by the bucket loads.
One thing about Hype Parties I've never cared for.................
............the bath you take when they are done.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
this amounted to over a million dollar 'gift' from the US Mint to each distributor. Do the math.... 3,000 sets of 5 coins, at cost of melt plus $2/coin...... subtract their cost from what they are selling them for..... automatic ca ching ca ching. Thanks US Mint. This one was definitely for the big boys.
One observation here - this is MOY's baby.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>While I collect Dollar sized coins I have absolutely no interest in collecting a 3" Medallion masquerading as a US Coin and priced as if it were a highly sought after collectible.
If folks want to jump on the Hype Train then go for it but the second someone, beit dealer or collector, compares the value of these bullion pieces to actual collectible US coinage, then folks need to wake up and smell the Hype which will be brewing by the bucket loads.
One thing about Hype Parties I've never cared for.................
............the bath you take when they are done. >>
Yup...just like some of the 1 oz Silver Art Bars that are selling for 3 or 4 times their melt. Or some painting selling for $60,000,000.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>I loaded a set into my cart and then...stopped. I just can't stomach it - not so much for the exhorbitant price, but for the fact that I would be validating and accepting the price gouging that APMEX is sticking to us. I can wait. I really only wanted a Yosemite and Grand Canyon anyway. I'll buy a set when the mint sells the P versions next year. I may buy singles of the bullion versions in the aftermarket. Recent sales on Ebay were $300 (they are a little higher now). With Ebay bucks, ebates and CC rebate, I should easily be able to get the two I want for less than $300 once the frothy frenzy dies down. If not, I can wait for the P versions... >>
You know, ever since I saw this thread, last night, I've been filling my APMEX cart with an order for one set, then not pulling the trigger...watch it expire, come back here and see the available numbers going down.....go back and put in my one set......and just sit there, UNDECIDED AND CONFLICTED, over whether to pull the trigger.
My point is that what you said, REALLY says everything I am thinking and feeling but would have used 1,000 words, given my usual means of expression, to say. Thank you for so succinctly explaining almost my exact same sentiments.
I want these and I am blessed enough that I can afford them. Yet, this is gouging, pure and simple. It's no worse, IMHO, than what the coin shillers on the tv shopping channels do.
In one sense it's "just $1,500.00," (and I grew up dirt poor so I say 'just $1,500.00' with a very healthy degree of respect but mostly feeling for those who want them, and other coins and cannot ever hope to afford them, maybe not even have enough to eat...much less buy coins). In the other sense, it's "I want it and can afford it; I'm not flipping anything and if I take a long term hit, so what?"
My final "so" though.....is that it is, IMHO price gouging to the max. I'd have gone $1,000-$1,250. and not thought twice.
I called another of the distributors and they, eagerly almost shouted "$1,500.00" into the phone. I just hung up without saying another word.
Finally.....just before I wrote this, I made up my mind. Toys for Tots and So Others May Eat, each got a check for $750.00, given to my mailman as he just delivered today's mail. Rather than get robbed, I remembered what it was like growing up and decided screw AMPEX, Monaco and the rest.
Please, no one...and I mean it, give me any accolades or pats on the back for what I just wrote. I believe in Christ's words about keeping prayer and works of charity to oneself. This is an exception because it made me return to my roots and realize what I've taken for granted "it's just $1,500.00,"......unless you're a kid who doesn't have a chance in Dante's Inferno of getting the one (and only one) XMAS present you want, or, the family whose XMAS dinner is sharing a can of Spaghetti-O's.
<< <i>While I collect Dollar sized coins I have absolutely no interest in collecting a 3" Medallion masquerading as a US Coin and priced as if it were a highly sought after collectible.
If folks want to jump on the Hype Train then go for it but the second someone, beit dealer or collector, compares the value of these bullion pieces to actual collectible US coinage, then folks need to wake up and smell the Hype which will be brewing by the bucket loads.
One thing about Hype Parties I've never cared for.................
............the bath you take when they are done. >>
Yup...just like some of the 1 oz Silver Art Bars that are selling for 3 or 4 times their melt. Or some painting selling for $60,000,000. >>
That's right. Most of us fall for hype somewhere and some of us need a bath anyway. By the way, I wonder what the Parks will be selling these for and if they are available at all the Parks or just the ones on the coins.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>There's a moral to the story. I think that it has something to do with a goose that lays golden eggs... >>
I agree.
Sometimes, it is quite interesting to watch the pure speculation. I can't imagine too many folks actually wanting to collect these things, particularly at a huge premium. I can understand the 1-off type of thing (someone likes that particular site, or for a gift, but the whole series? )
Will be interesting to see what happens. >>
While I'd love to collect the whole series, despite hating modern crap, given what I just wrote about thinking this through and price gouging, I refuse to pay the AMPEX/MONACO/who knows who else "fair price."
I almost think we need a shrink to visit this board. I understand not wanting to be taken advantage of fully but the agonizing over a couple hundred dollars when every other day this group usually posts gleefully of their great gold or platinum purchase in the multiple thousands of dollars. It is almost too much. I don't mean to belittle the amount but I think it is the contrast that makes it stand out.
I mean how much could you lose on these even if the market goes against you? I am not trying to sell them or flip them. I am only getting one set and don't plan on selling.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>Yes- shame on APMEX for selling stuff to people at prices they voluntarily choose to pay. What scum. If they cared at all, they'd let their customers decide what the price is for the things they want to buy. >>
I am as much, and more, of a supply and demand economist, than you clearly state. However, there is a world of difference between free supply and demand at work here versus an artificial oligopoly that is more in tune with a semi-socialist regulated economy, enriching only itself.
<< <i>you know, ever since I saw this thread, last night, I've been filling my APMEX cart with an order for one set, then not pulling the trigger...watch it expire, come back here and see the available numbers going down.....go back and put in my one set......and just sit there, UNDECIDED AND CONFLICTED, over whether to pull the trigger.
My point is that what you said, REALLY says everything I am thinking and feeling but would have used 1,000 words, given my usual means of expression, to say. Thank you for so succinctly explaining almost my exact same sentiments.
I want these and I am blessed enough that I can afford them. Yet, this is gouging, pure and simple. It's no worse, IMHO, than what the coin shillers on the tv shopping channels do.
In one sense it's "just $1,500.00," (and I grew up dirt poor so I say 'just $1,500.00' with a very healthy degree of respect but mostly feeling for those who want them, and other coins and cannot ever hope to afford them, maybe not even have enough to eat...much less buy coins). In the other sense, it's "I want it and can afford it; I'm not flipping anything and if I take a long term hit, so what?"
My final "so" though.....is that it is, IMHO price gouging to the max. I'd have gone $1,000-$1,250. and not thought twice.
I called another of the distributors and they, eagerly almost shouted "$1,500.00" into the phone. I just hung up without saying another word.
Finally.....just before I wrote this, I made up my mind. Toys for Tots and So Others May Eat, each got a check for $750.00, given to my mailman as he just delivered today's mail. Rather than get robbed, I remembered what it was like growing up and decided screw AMPEX, Monaco and the rest.
Please, no one...and I mean it, give me any accolades or pats on the back for what I just wrote. I believe in Christ's words about keeping prayer and works of charity to oneself. This is an exception because it made me return to my roots and realize what I've taken for granted "it's just $1,500.00,"......unless you're a kid who doesn't have a chance in Dante's Inferno of getting the one (and only one) XMAS present you want, or, the family whose XMAS dinner is sharing a can of Spaghetti-O's. >>
tcmitssr, very nice, I hope you have a wonderful Christmas!
Finally.....just before I wrote this, I made up my mind. Toys for Tots and So Others May Eat, each got a check for $750.00, given to my mailman as he just delivered today's mail. Rather than get robbed, I remembered what it was like growing up and decided screw AMPEX, Monaco and the rest.
tcmitssr, very nice, I hope you have a wonderful Christmas! >>
That is a great idea. Maybe other non-buyers can do the same. Maybe even some of the buyers. That is what I like about this country and the people of it.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
"Finally.....just before I wrote this, I made up my mind. Toys for Tots and So Others May Eat, each got a check for $750.00, given to my mailman as he just delivered today's mail. Rather than get robbed, I remembered what it was like growing up and decided screw AMPEX, Monaco and the rest. "
tcmitssr, very nice, I hope you have a wonderful Christmas! >>
Hypothetical question to those who are so outraged at the initial price for the 5 oz pucks....would you still be as upset if they were 1 oz & selling for $57? ( about 2 x melt ) If my memory serves me correctly, the ASE's had a similar mark-up when they first came out in 86.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
tcmitssr has inspired me. I give to Toys for Tots at Chrstmas. I am sticking to my $200 a coin limit for banged up bullion and taking the balence that AMPEX would have received, $400, and sending more than usual to toys for tots.
<< <i>tcmitssr has inspired me. I give to Toys for Tots at Chrstmas. I am sticking to my $200 a coin limit for banged up bullion and taking the balence that AMPEX would have received, $400, and sending more than usual to toys for tots. >>
<< <i>Hypothetical question to those who are so outraged at the initial price for the 5 oz pucks....would you still be as upset if they were 1 oz & selling for $57? ( about 2 x melt ) If my memory serves me correctly, the ASE's had a similar mark-up when they first came out in 86. >>
Not if they were proof coins issued in fancy mint boxes!
To tcmitsser, thanks, you made me think a bit. I did what you did last night into this morning. Finally, I bought them early today. My Dad busted his butt for those coins he could save out of change, and I've been wheeling and dealing with those coins, and done quite well over the last 5 years, thanks to precious metal prices mostly. I'd give anything for him to see what his collection has evolved into. All his "pride and joy" collections are now complete, and I've started 3 collections that I love, besides the ones I started in my youth. A 7070, the Gold Spouse and now these National Park coins.
"It is only money", and I will enjoy them, and my Dad could have never dreamed of such an expense. He couldn't even spend the money to get a 1932 d quarter back in the 60s. We often talk of passing our collections down, and whether our heirs will appreciate them at all. Nothing could mean more to me than my Dads collection. And now I'm putting my spin on it. My son just finished a History report for school on the history of the mint, and while he thinks at times I'm crazy for spending so much on these coins he is very interested and always wants to see what I got. We spend lots of time in the Parks and this will mean a great deal to both of my kids some day so I got it.
But...even though I caved... I am going to remember how I agonized over this, (as I do think it is ripoff) and instead of giving the minimums I usually do to the local charities and the Salvation Army I'm going to be more generous, and I will tell my kids why. And in the future my kids will remember the story that comes with those coins just like I remember specific times and places with some of my Dads coins.
I teach at risk kids that often have no parents, no home, and very little hope, and yet I agonized over a few hundred dollars I can easily spend. How easily we forget...
like wow.. the most exciting thing about these rounds is how they were priced and if they are a winner/loser. eh.. the design? one or two seem marginally ok looking.
what a great way to speculate.. er buy for a hobby collection.
More from APMEX stating that they have been selling them to other dealers for the same prices as they are offering but then how in the hell is one TV Outfit sell them for $1100:
More from APMEX:
I came here to try and offer some insight why we came out with the prices we did. Then I asked for what you would do. All I got was more complaints... Should I have just sold these wholesale at $1,500 and not offered any to our customers? Should I have sold an item which has a mintage of 33,000 for $0.29 cents over mint cost (Comparing them to the 30,000,000 SAE's the mint will be making this year.) Then the greedy trolls out there would have come in and bought them all us and sold them on ebay for $1,700 each... (Anyone who bought them would be out of luck unless you were really quick on the trigger...) Should I have sold 1,000 at a premium less than wholesale to our customers? ($1,395 vs. $1,500 or more?) Give me some options vs. just more complaints... We asked our self all the questions you are posing here and we came up with our solution. We knew we would be damned if we did sell at this price and damned if we didn't sell any. How do you win here? In the end, we have to make a market here. We have sold 800 in 19 hours... Seems to me if we sold them for less greedy folks would have come in and ordered hundreds of sets and they would be out in minutes or hours. The fact is, we sold to dealers at this same level... If we offered them for more money, we would have looked worse. So, I will go back to my original question. Put YOURSELF in our shoes and give me some feedback on how YOU would have handled it...
I suggest people start sending out emails to the mint concerning the current pricing on these. Does anyone have the e-mail so that i can send a short note to them.
<< <i>More from APMEX stating that they have been selling them to other dealers for the same prices as they are offering but then how in the hell is one TV Outfit sell them for $1100:
More from APMEX:
I came here to try and offer some insight why we came out with the prices we did. Then I asked for what you would do. All I got was more complaints... Should I have just sold these wholesale at $1,500 and not offered any to our customers? Should I have sold an item which has a mintage of 33,000 for $0.29 cents over mint cost (Comparing them to the 30,000,000 SAE's the mint will be making this year.) Then the greedy trolls out there would have come in and bought them all us and sold them on ebay for $1,700 each... (Anyone who bought them would be out of luck unless you were really quick on the trigger...) Should I have sold 1,000 at a premium less than wholesale to our customers? ($1,395 vs. $1,500 or more?) Give me some options vs. just more complaints... We asked our self all the questions you are posing here and we came up with our solution. We knew we would be damned if we did sell at this price and damned if we didn't sell any. How do you win here? In the end, we have to make a market here. We have sold 800 in 19 hours... Seems to me if we sold them for less greedy folks would have come in and ordered hundreds of sets and they would be out in minutes or hours. The fact is, we sold to dealers at this same level... If we offered them for more money, we would have looked worse. So, I will go back to my original question. Put YOURSELF in our shoes and give me some feedback on how YOU would have handled it...
I suggest people start sending out emails to the mint concerning the current pricing on these. Does anyone have the e-mail so that i can send a short note to them. >>
Why are some people paying $1,750 on eBay when dealers are currently lower...it's a new product and they're not even out yet. It's price discovery and the TV outfit that sold them for $1,100 offered a great deal.
People often buy from ebay when they are still for sale...even from the mint.
If you watched the numbers on the apmex site, it appears that dealers may be buying them there too. The number will stay almost the same for 10-20 minutes, then suddenly drop 20-30 like someone purchased a bunch.
Great BST experiences: abitofthisabitofthat, silvercoinsdude, gerard, coinfame, mikescoins, wondercoin
"Why are some people paying $1,750 on eBay when dealers are currently lower...it's a new product and they're not even out yet. It's price discovery and the TV outfit that sold them for $1,100 offered a great deal."
Well maybe the TV outfit thought they could get the coins cheaper and resell at a profit...kinda like an Ebay pre-sale...I wouldn't be surprised if those orders were rejected.
"More from APMEX stating that they have been selling them to other dealers for the same prices as they are offering but then how in the hell is one TV Outfit sell them for $1100:"
First what tv outfit.
Second. apmex isn't the only one getting these. Who knows what the other 9 or 10 distributor are doing with there allocation.
Comments
<< <i>I think it's time the US Mint reconsiders how they are doing this distribution thing. Distributors selling at nearly double melt somehow does not seem to be the original intent on how the system was set up. I thought the intent was for the distributors to resell at reasonable levels.......
I don't think the mint has any say in the prices that the bullion distributors sell them for, but they may limited them in the future to the bullion distributors that are price gouging. By law they have to distibute these as bullion so they have no choice. I expect the set from the mint to sell for $995 if silver is at $30. This is there usual premium mark up on all their offerings. >>
Very, very good points. Can you image the outrage if the US Mint were to begin price gouging? People's heads would explode. I doubt the Mint would want to have that headache.
<< <i>ship bt 12/17 - gives them time to cherry pick the nice coins >>
Zactly!! The peasants will get the scraps/rejects and culls. No doubt about it.
<< <i>Well here goes me trying to explain the 5 oz coin pricing.... First, there are 11 authorized purchasers Tulving is not one of them. All dealers that I know of only received 3,000 sets each. We have seen these sets trade wholesale for $1500 per set (hundreds of sets at a time) We decided to market 1,000 sets at $1395 to those who signed up for them through our market alert system. Those are the ones who received the email tonight. (first shot). We sold 80 sets in 20 minutes before the Email even went out. Now 5 hours into it we have sold about 400 sets. We wanted to give our customers first shot which we have done. I expect these sets will be one if the hottest items from the mint in years. We are selling them for $100 less per set than what they are trading for wholesale. ($100,000 discount) So while we are setting what we believe to be the market price, it is still below wholesale. I expect these sets to sellout very fast and be in high demand over the years to come. >>
The also posted this :
<< <i>So as a business, how would you all have done this? Here are the facts: 1. We have thousands of people interested in these products. 2. We have dealers bidding to pay $1500 per set. (by the hundreds) 3. We see sets and coins selling in the retail market for $1,500 - $1,800 per set. 4. Other distributors have already sold out of there full allocation. 5. There are only 33,000 bullion sets available, we only received 3,000 sets. 6. We posted 1,000 sets available to those who signed up for them on a first come first served basis. 7. We are required to make a market which we have. 8. We have expenses, such as employees, real estate, insurance, benefits, marketing, etc. To cover. We spoke about this internally for 3 days before setting our price. We think we treated our customers very fair in this offering. However, there are smart folks out there and I welcome your suggestions on how you would have done this if you were in our shoes knowing some of the information you now know...... This is not a sarcastic response, I am truly interested in hearing how you the owner of a business would have handled this situation.... Please post your ideas here..... >>
If the wholesale network is really buying these for 1500 a set....wow! Its gonna be crazy.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's unacceptable that the mint distributors will be charging about double what it cost them for these, and it might put pressure on the mint to revise the system. Like most previous posters in this thread, I've decided not to buy, because:
1. The starting price after distributor superprofit is excessive.
2. The designs of the views are plain blah. Unattractive.
3. The bust of Washington on the obverse is okay for a smallish quarter coin, but it gains nothing when enlarged.
4. The symbolic 25 cents face value is ridiculously low.
5. Coming from tubes, these coins may suffer from contact with each other, beyond mint quality control problems.
6. Distributors will be able to cherry pick any that are unscathed.
7. Storage, display, and grading if desired, will entail added expense.
8. The individually packaged versions of these, with better chance of nicer condition, are coming out soon, to be sold directly to the public in early 2011.
9. Too many coin products from the mint aimed at collectors are being released.
10. Supersized coins like these haven't previously attracted much of a following from numismatists. >>
the law requires these to be sold through the current bullion channels. the law also mandated the face value of 25 cents.
the mint will sell these as bullion. >>
Hmmmm
The ATB Legislation states:
"‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—In addition to the authorized dealers utilized by the Secretary in distributing bullion coins and solely for purposes of distributing bullion coins issued under
this subsection,"
However, "authorized dealers" is not mentioned in the "“Gold Bullion Coin Act of 1985"
but instead that legislation states:
"“(2)(A) The Secretary shall sell the coins minted under this subsection to the public at a price equal to the market value of the bullion at the time of sale, plus the cost of minting, marketing, and distributing such coins (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, and promotional and overhead expenses)."
Earlier legislation on bullion title "Statue of Liberty-Ellis Island Coin Act" of 1985, under Title II "Liberty Coins" (Silver American Eagles) states:
I think the distribution program was setup in 1985 by the Secretary of the Treasury Staff as a method of selling millions of coins which would minimize the Treasury Departments costs since the Internet hadn't been invented by Al Gore yet.
I don't believe for a second that the "Authorized Dealers" concept is an actual point of the law except as a reference to current distribution methods established by the Treasury Department back in 1985.
In other words, selling millions of coins on a piece meal basis was not cost effective back in 1985 but is quite easily accomplished today via the internet and web sites.
The situation governing the price of these "Hockey Pucks" is certainly allowable in todays enviroment but I don't believe it's governed by point of law but by point of "thats how we've always done it."
Scan through the list. Since when do distributors 10-14 represent the American Public?
Edited to put the correct img in.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>We are selling them for $100 less per set than what they are trading for wholesale. ($100,000 discount) So while we are setting what we believe to be the market price, it is still below wholesale.
We have expenses, such as employees, real estate, insurance, benefits, marketing, etc. To cover. >>
So we are to believe they are foregoing a potential extra $100k in profit so they can sell these to their online customers, and at the same time ranting about the justifications of their pricing due to expenses. Please spare me!
<< <i>
<< <i>We are selling them for $100 less per set than what they are trading for wholesale. ($100,000 discount) So while we are setting what we believe to be the market price, it is still below wholesale.
We have expenses, such as employees, real estate, insurance, benefits, marketing, etc. To cover. >>
So we are to believe they are foregoing a potential extra $100k in profit so they can sell these to their online customers, and at the same time ranting about the justifications of their pricing due to expenses. Please spare me! >>
Do they price all their silver bullion at $55/oz ?
hot cakes.
This may be the straw that knocks me off of my quest to get both the the unc and proof First Spouses. Finally, in my older years I have the opportunity to get some of these higher priced coins but it bothers me a lot that the mint seems so driven to supply really high end stuff that requires such an outlay to acquire. These would have been so much nicer in a Silver Dollar size coin. The Parks may have been established to keep the rich from buying up all our National Treasures but these Park coins sure weren't. Teddy Roosevelt would definitely not approve.
The 2008 Plats that I got from them were scuffed and not gradable, by the way.
I still would like to see these in hand. I still might want a few, but I'm not throwing money out the window to prove a point, either.
I knew it would happen.
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>Apmex just lost any future business from me. And that's not being sarcastic either.
The 2008 Plats that I got from them were scuffed and not gradable, by the way. >>
Youre not the only one....look at other forums such as www.goldismoney2.com and Kitco and you will see.Theyve lost my business and my father's as well after I told him of the pricing
Look around the Mint site. There are a lot of lower cost items available. I think it may seem that way because the higher priced stuff gets most of the attention. Would you be happier if they only sold cheap stuff?
Skew the whole market by only buying large numbers of just one issue, and then just sit on them.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I think that we should all wait until the Mint release and then all of us only buy one of the issues, en masse.
Skew the whole market by only buying large numbers of just one issue, and then just sit on them. >>
Yeah, that'll work I'm sure
------ but what I do know, the way it has gone right now, this amounted to over a million dollar 'gift' from the US Mint to each distributor. Do the math.... 3,000 sets of 5 coins, at cost of melt plus $2/coin...... subtract their cost from what they are selling them for..... automatic ca ching ca ching. Thanks US Mint. This one was definitely for the big boys.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think that we should all wait until the Mint release and then all of us only buy one of the issues, en masse.
Skew the whole market by only buying large numbers of just one issue, and then just sit on them. >>
Yeah, that'll work I'm sure >>
Yup...like cutting of your nose to spite your face?
BTW down to 266 sets available ... expect a repricing when these are sold...
If folks want to jump on the Hype Train then go for it but the second someone, beit dealer or collector, compares the value of these bullion pieces to actual collectible US coinage, then folks need to wake up and smell the Hype which will be brewing by the bucket loads.
One thing about Hype Parties I've never cared for.................
............the bath you take when they are done.
The name is LEE!
One observation here - this is MOY's baby.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>While I collect Dollar sized coins I have absolutely no interest in collecting a 3" Medallion masquerading as a US Coin and priced as if it were a highly sought after collectible.
If folks want to jump on the Hype Train then go for it but the second someone, beit dealer or collector, compares the value of these bullion pieces to actual collectible US coinage, then folks need to wake up and smell the Hype which will be brewing by the bucket loads.
One thing about Hype Parties I've never cared for.................
............the bath you take when they are done. >>
Yup...just like some of the 1 oz Silver Art Bars that are selling for 3 or 4 times their melt. Or some painting selling for $60,000,000.
<< <i>I loaded a set into my cart and then...stopped. I just can't stomach it - not so much for the exhorbitant price, but for the fact that I would be validating and accepting the price gouging that APMEX is sticking to us. I can wait. I really only wanted a Yosemite and Grand Canyon anyway. I'll buy a set when the mint sells the P versions next year. I may buy singles of the bullion versions in the aftermarket. Recent sales on Ebay were $300 (they are a little higher now). With Ebay bucks, ebates and CC rebate, I should easily be able to get the two I want for less than $300 once the frothy frenzy dies down. If not, I can wait for the P versions... >>
You know, ever since I saw this thread, last night, I've been filling my APMEX cart with an order for one set, then not pulling the trigger...watch it expire, come back here and see the available numbers going down.....go back and put in my one set......and just sit there, UNDECIDED AND CONFLICTED, over whether to pull the trigger.
My point is that what you said, REALLY says everything I am thinking and feeling but would have used 1,000 words, given my usual means of expression, to say. Thank you for so succinctly explaining almost my exact same sentiments.
I want these and I am blessed enough that I can afford them. Yet, this is gouging, pure and simple. It's no worse, IMHO, than what the coin shillers on the tv shopping channels do.
In one sense it's "just $1,500.00," (and I grew up dirt poor so I say 'just $1,500.00' with a very healthy degree of respect but mostly feeling for those who want them, and other coins and cannot ever hope to afford them, maybe not even have enough to eat...much less buy coins). In the other sense, it's "I want it and can afford it; I'm not flipping anything and if I take a long term hit, so what?"
My final "so" though.....is that it is, IMHO price gouging to the max. I'd have gone $1,000-$1,250. and not thought twice.
I called another of the distributors and they, eagerly almost shouted "$1,500.00" into the phone. I just hung up without saying another word.
Finally.....just before I wrote this, I made up my mind. Toys for Tots and So Others May Eat, each got a check for $750.00, given to my mailman as he just delivered today's mail. Rather than get robbed, I remembered what it was like growing up and decided screw AMPEX, Monaco and the rest.
Please, no one...and I mean it, give me any accolades or pats on the back for what I just wrote. I believe in Christ's words about keeping prayer and works of charity to oneself. This is an exception because it made me return to my roots and realize what I've taken for granted "it's just $1,500.00,"......unless you're a kid who doesn't have a chance in Dante's Inferno of getting the one (and only one) XMAS present you want, or, the family whose XMAS dinner is sharing a can of Spaghetti-O's.
<< <i>7 sets sold on the bay in the last 30 minutes for $1700+ >>
Wow! I guess the buyers haven't heard of Apmex or these forums
<< <i>
<< <i>While I collect Dollar sized coins I have absolutely no interest in collecting a 3" Medallion masquerading as a US Coin and priced as if it were a highly sought after collectible.
If folks want to jump on the Hype Train then go for it but the second someone, beit dealer or collector, compares the value of these bullion pieces to actual collectible US coinage, then folks need to wake up and smell the Hype which will be brewing by the bucket loads.
One thing about Hype Parties I've never cared for.................
............the bath you take when they are done. >>
Yup...just like some of the 1 oz Silver Art Bars that are selling for 3 or 4 times their melt. Or some painting selling for $60,000,000. >>
That's right. Most of us fall for hype somewhere and some of us need a bath anyway. By the way, I wonder what the Parks will be selling these for and if they are available at all the Parks or just the ones on the coins.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>There's a moral to the story. I think that it has something to do with a goose that lays golden eggs... >>
I agree.
Sometimes, it is quite interesting to watch the pure speculation. I can't imagine too many folks actually wanting to collect these things, particularly at a huge premium.
I can understand the 1-off type of thing (someone likes that particular site, or for a gift, but the whole series?
Will be interesting to see what happens. >>
While I'd love to collect the whole series, despite hating modern crap, given what I just wrote about thinking this through and price gouging, I refuse to pay the AMPEX/MONACO/who knows who else "fair price."
Box of 20
I mean how much could you lose on these even if the market goes against you? I am not trying to sell them or flip them. I am only getting one set and don't plan on selling.
<< <i>Yes- shame on APMEX for selling stuff to people at prices they voluntarily choose to pay. What scum. If they cared at all, they'd let their customers decide what the price is for the things they want to buy. >>
I am as much, and more, of a supply and demand economist, than you clearly state. However, there is a world of difference between free supply and demand at work here versus an artificial oligopoly that is more in tune with a semi-socialist regulated economy, enriching only itself.
<< <i>you know, ever since I saw this thread, last night, I've been filling my APMEX cart with an order for one set, then not pulling the trigger...watch it expire, come back here and see the available numbers going down.....go back and put in my one set......and just sit there, UNDECIDED AND CONFLICTED, over whether to pull the trigger.
My point is that what you said, REALLY says everything I am thinking and feeling but would have used 1,000 words, given my usual means of expression, to say. Thank you for so succinctly explaining almost my exact same sentiments.
I want these and I am blessed enough that I can afford them. Yet, this is gouging, pure and simple. It's no worse, IMHO, than what the coin shillers on the tv shopping channels do.
In one sense it's "just $1,500.00," (and I grew up dirt poor so I say 'just $1,500.00' with a very healthy degree of respect but mostly feeling for those who want them, and other coins and cannot ever hope to afford them, maybe not even have enough to eat...much less buy coins). In the other sense, it's "I want it and can afford it; I'm not flipping anything and if I take a long term hit, so what?"
My final "so" though.....is that it is, IMHO price gouging to the max. I'd have gone $1,000-$1,250. and not thought twice.
I called another of the distributors and they, eagerly almost shouted "$1,500.00" into the phone. I just hung up without saying another word.
Finally.....just before I wrote this, I made up my mind. Toys for Tots and So Others May Eat, each got a check for $750.00, given to my mailman as he just delivered today's mail. Rather than get robbed, I remembered what it was like growing up and decided screw AMPEX, Monaco and the rest.
Please, no one...and I mean it, give me any accolades or pats on the back for what I just wrote. I believe in Christ's words about keeping prayer and works of charity to oneself. This is an exception because it made me return to my roots and realize what I've taken for granted "it's just $1,500.00,"......unless you're a kid who doesn't have a chance in Dante's Inferno of getting the one (and only one) XMAS present you want, or, the family whose XMAS dinner is sharing a can of Spaghetti-O's. >>
tcmitssr, very nice, I hope you have a wonderful Christmas!
<< <i>........not gonna do it , not gonna pay thru the butt for them >>
Hypothetically if i have lots of sets of them and i traded (1 set) for your most prized colored coin...would you do a trade then?
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
tcmitssr, very nice, I hope you have a wonderful Christmas! >>
That is a great idea. Maybe other non-buyers can do the same. Maybe even some of the buyers. That is what I like about this country and the people of it.
tcmitssr, very nice, I hope you have a wonderful Christmas! >>
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
<< <i>tcmitssr has inspired me. I give to Toys for Tots at Chrstmas. I am sticking to my $200 a coin limit for banged up bullion and taking the balence that AMPEX would have received, $400, and sending more than usual to toys for tots. >>
Coinfame,Kaelasdad,Type2,UNLVino,MICHAELDIXON
Justacommeman,tydye,78saen,123cents,blue62vette,Segoja,Nibanny
<< <i>Hypothetical question to those who are so outraged at the initial price for the 5 oz pucks....would you still be as upset if they were 1 oz & selling for $57? ( about 2 x melt ) If my memory serves me correctly, the ASE's had a similar mark-up when they first came out in 86. >>
Not if they were proof coins issued in fancy mint boxes!
"It is only money", and I will enjoy them, and my Dad could have never dreamed of such an expense. He couldn't even spend the money to get a 1932 d quarter back in the 60s. We often talk of passing our collections down, and whether our heirs will appreciate them at all. Nothing could mean more to me than my Dads collection. And now I'm putting my spin on it. My son just finished a History report for school on the history of the mint, and while he thinks at times I'm crazy for spending so much on these coins he is very interested and always wants to see what I got. We spend lots of time in the Parks and this will mean a great deal to both of my kids some day so I got it.
But...even though I caved... I am going to remember how I agonized over this, (as I do think it is ripoff) and instead of giving the minimums I usually do to the local charities and the Salvation Army I'm going to be more generous, and I will tell my kids why. And in the future my kids will remember the story that comes with those coins just like I remember specific times and places with some of my Dads coins.
I teach at risk kids that often have no parents, no home, and very little hope, and yet I agonized over a few hundred dollars I can easily spend. How easily we forget...
<< <i>wow only 296 left.
hot cakes. >>
Sold 100 in the past 1.5 hours.
The last ones will go fast.
<< <i>
<< <i>wow only 296 left.
hot cakes. >>
Sold 100 in the past 1.5 hours.
The last ones will go fast. >>
down to 172
and if they are a winner/loser. eh.. the design? one or two seem marginally ok
looking.
what a great way to speculate.. er buy for a hobby collection.
More from APMEX:
I came here to try and offer some insight why we came out with the prices we did. Then I asked for what you would do. All I got was more complaints... Should I have just sold these wholesale at $1,500 and not offered any to our customers? Should I have sold an item which has a mintage of 33,000 for $0.29 cents over mint cost (Comparing them to the 30,000,000 SAE's the mint will be making this year.) Then the greedy trolls out there would have come in and bought them all us and sold them on ebay for $1,700 each... (Anyone who bought them would be out of luck unless you were really quick on the trigger...) Should I have sold 1,000 at a premium less than wholesale to our customers? ($1,395 vs. $1,500 or more?) Give me some options vs. just more complaints... We asked our self all the questions you are posing here and we came up with our solution. We knew we would be damned if we did sell at this price and damned if we didn't sell any. How do you win here? In the end, we have to make a market here. We have sold 800 in 19 hours... Seems to me if we sold them for less greedy folks would have come in and ordered hundreds of sets and they would be out in minutes or hours. The fact is, we sold to dealers at this same level... If we offered them for more money, we would have looked worse. So, I will go back to my original question. Put YOURSELF in our shoes and give me some feedback on how YOU would have handled it...
I suggest people start sending out emails to the mint concerning the current pricing on these. Does anyone have the e-mail so that i can send a short note to them.
<< <i>More from APMEX stating that they have been selling them to other dealers for the same prices as they are offering but then how in the hell is one TV Outfit sell them for $1100:
More from APMEX:
I came here to try and offer some insight why we came out with the prices we did. Then I asked for what you would do. All I got was more complaints... Should I have just sold these wholesale at $1,500 and not offered any to our customers? Should I have sold an item which has a mintage of 33,000 for $0.29 cents over mint cost (Comparing them to the 30,000,000 SAE's the mint will be making this year.) Then the greedy trolls out there would have come in and bought them all us and sold them on ebay for $1,700 each... (Anyone who bought them would be out of luck unless you were really quick on the trigger...) Should I have sold 1,000 at a premium less than wholesale to our customers? ($1,395 vs. $1,500 or more?) Give me some options vs. just more complaints... We asked our self all the questions you are posing here and we came up with our solution. We knew we would be damned if we did sell at this price and damned if we didn't sell any. How do you win here? In the end, we have to make a market here. We have sold 800 in 19 hours... Seems to me if we sold them for less greedy folks would have come in and ordered hundreds of sets and they would be out in minutes or hours. The fact is, we sold to dealers at this same level... If we offered them for more money, we would have looked worse. So, I will go back to my original question. Put YOURSELF in our shoes and give me some feedback on how YOU would have handled it...
I suggest people start sending out emails to the mint concerning the current pricing on these. Does anyone have the e-mail so that i can send a short note to them. >>
Why are some people paying $1,750 on eBay when dealers are currently lower...it's a new product and they're not even out yet. It's price discovery and the TV outfit that sold them for $1,100 offered a great deal.
If you watched the numbers on the apmex site, it appears that dealers may be buying them there too. The number will stay almost the same for 10-20 minutes, then suddenly drop 20-30 like someone purchased a bunch.
Well maybe the TV outfit thought they could get the coins cheaper and resell at a profit...kinda like an Ebay pre-sale...I wouldn't be surprised if those orders were rejected.
edited to add: only 152 left
But I would have liked to see every distributor release and sell to the public............ AT THE SAME TIME.
We may have a more competitive market.... as it stands.... its like a drip... watching what the last guy did, and starting from their ending price.
First what tv outfit.
Second. apmex isn't the only one getting these. Who knows what the other 9 or 10 distributor are doing with there allocation.