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APMEX is selling the 5oz ATB coins right now - $1,395 per 5 coin set - SOLD OUT - MTB SELLING ON eBA

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  • botanistbotanist Posts: 524 ✭✭✭
    It's unacceptable that the mint distributors will be charging about double what it cost them for these, and it might put pressure on the mint to revise the system. Like most previous posters in this thread, I've decided not to buy, because:

    1. The starting price after distributor superprofit is excessive.
    2. The designs of the views are plain blah. Unattractive.
    3. The bust of Washington on the obverse is okay for a smallish quarter coin, but it gains nothing when enlarged.
    4. The symbolic 25 cents face value is ridiculously low.
    5. Coming from tubes, these coins may suffer from contact with each other, beyond mint quality control problems.
    6. Distributors will be able to cherry pick any that are unscathed.
    7. Storage, display, and grading if desired, will entail added expense.
    8. The individually packaged versions of these, with better chance of nicer condition, are coming out soon, to be sold directly to the public in early 2011.
    9. Too many coin products from the mint aimed at collectors are being released.
    10. Supersized coins like these haven't previously attracted much of a following from numismatists.

  • PatchesPatches Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭
    I always miss the boat on these, so going to play this silly game for once. I bought 2 sets from apmex, I'm on the side thinking there is little downside to this...but these could be real hot items if they make a lot of the future ones.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It's unacceptable that the mint distributors will be charging about double what it cost them for these, and it might put pressure on the mint to revise the system. Like most previous posters in this thread, I've decided not to buy, because:

    1. The starting price after distributor superprofit is excessive.
    2. The designs of the views are plain blah. Unattractive.
    3. The bust of Washington on the obverse is okay for a smallish quarter coin, but it gains nothing when enlarged.
    4. The symbolic 25 cents face value is ridiculously low.
    5. Coming from tubes, these coins may suffer from contact with each other, beyond mint quality control problems.
    6. Distributors will be able to cherry pick any that are unscathed.
    7. Storage, display, and grading if desired, will entail added expense.
    8. The individually packaged versions of these, with better chance of nicer condition, are coming out soon, to be sold directly to the public in early 2011.
    9. Too many coin products from the mint aimed at collectors are being released.
    10. Supersized coins like these haven't previously attracted much of a following from numismatists. >>





    the law requires these to be sold through the current bullion channels. the law also mandated the face value of 25 cents.

    the mint will sell these as bullion.
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • If the current market value of these things is actually $1395, it's kind of unrealistic to expect any business to sell theirs below that amount. And if they don't sell at $1395, the price will adjust to reflect the fact.
  • MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If the current market value of these things is actually $1395, it's kind of unrealistic to expect any business to sell theirs below that amount. And if they don't sell at $1395, the price will adjust to reflect the fact. >>



    They are selling at a brisk pace as the original number was north of 888 and currentlty there are 698 left at APMEX.

    Miles
    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
  • botanistbotanist Posts: 524 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>It's unacceptable that the mint distributors will be charging about double what it cost them for these, and it might put pressure on the mint to revise the system. Like most previous posters in this thread, I've decided not to buy, because:

    1. The starting price after distributor superprofit is excessive.
    2. The designs of the views are plain blah. Unattractive.
    3. The bust of Washington on the obverse is okay for a smallish quarter coin, but it gains nothing when enlarged.
    4. The symbolic 25 cents face value is ridiculously low.
    5. Coming from tubes, these coins may suffer from contact with each other, beyond mint quality control problems.
    6. Distributors will be able to cherry pick any that are unscathed.
    7. Storage, display, and grading if desired, will entail added expense.
    8. The individually packaged versions of these, with better chance of nicer condition, are coming out soon, to be sold directly to the public in early 2011.
    9. Too many coin products from the mint aimed at collectors are being released.
    10. Supersized coins like these haven't previously attracted much of a following from numismatists. >>





    the law requires these to be sold through the current bullion channels. the law also mandated the face value of 25 cents.

    the mint will sell these as bullion. >>



    Yes, correct, it was a flawed law in more ways than one. I was on the monster box list too, despite some misgivings, and wouldn't have backed out if the deal had gone ahead. In any case, the efforts of MsMorrisine were most highly appreciated. Thank you indeed!
  • BigEBigE Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭
    I kind of think the Mint would rather have just made these for collectors only, and sold them directly, the whole batch. But they had to have a bullion version by law that has to go to auth. dealers to be sold. Really, the dealers could be mad that the Mint took some away from them to sell themselves, thats why the mintages are 27,000 and 30,000--------------------------------BigE



    BTW, I find it nauseating that the Mint should tell dealers what they can sell something for, there is too much gov. interference in private matters as is
    I'm glad I am a Tree
  • BigDaddyzBigDaddyz Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭
    I took the plunge...a couple of times
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  • I was really looking forward to collecting these for around spot. I'll have to pass - thus, I have guaranteed they will have a fantastic seconday market. You are welcome.
    "spot on my UHR, nevermind, I wiped it off"
  • CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>you guys are nuts.

    How much you think the Mint will charge?

    They are already charging $56 per ounce for the Silver Proof.

    Why wouldn't they charge that per oz for the pucks?

    Maybe they'll bring it down to $50. That will be an even $250 per. >>




    These are bullion and the mint will sell them as bullion. >>


    I could be wrong, but I think the reason the Mint wants to do the numismatic version is to get in on the heavy profit-taking themselves, plus they need some way to recoup the cost of the new equipment they bought to mint these things. So I expect the mint to tack on a pretty hefty premium. Based on today's spot price, I think it'll be priced upwards of $225. >>




    Seems reasonable to me. Look at the silver Eagle program. The Mint direct sale SAE's carried a "W" mint mark and sold for more than the bullion Eagles in most cases.
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
  • These coins were supposed to be treated as bullion not as collectibles. Unfortunately, due to their low mintage, they have become collectibles which has superseded their role as bullion coins. But it seems many of you are still valuing them as strictly bullion coins.

    And yes, it's unfortunate that they went through the bullion distribution network since, well, greed is greed and businesses tacked on their own hefty premiums. The question is whether these collectibles are now undervalued or overvalued.
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  • carew4mecarew4me Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭✭
    Once the mintage went from 100,000 per to 33,000 per, you had to know that the transformation from bullion to sought after collectible was occurring.

    Loves me some shiny!
  • CCC2010CCC2010 Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭


    << <i>These coins were supposed to be treated as bullion not as collectibles. Unfortunately, due to their low mintage, they have become collectibles which has superseded their role as bullion coins. But it seems many of you are still valuing them as strictly bullion coins.

    And yes, it's unfortunate that they went through the bullion distribution network since, well, greed is greed and businesses tacked on their own hefty premiums. The question is whether these collectibles are now undervalued or overvalued. >>



    image
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  • << <i>And yes, it's unfortunate that they went through the bullion distribution network since, well, greed is greed and businesses tacked on their own hefty premiums. >>

    Businesses cannot tack on hefty premiums if there is no demand, yet nobody seems to be blaming those who are generating that demand for the hefty premiums being asked. Curious...
  • Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,944 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think these will not be a collectible but after the fervor dies down and the flippers are done, they will be sold for silver content nothing more on the after market....
  • MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭✭✭
    At the current buying rate of approx. 200s sets per 1.5 hour span, the probability of a sell-out of the original 900 or so would occur around 5.5 or so hours from now.

    Miles
    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,935 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm in. It's been said I've got more money than brains. Here's your proof.
    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • Batman23Batman23 Posts: 4,999 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>These coins were supposed to be treated as bullion not as collectibles. Unfortunately, due to their low mintage, they have become collectibles which has superseded their role as bullion coins. But it seems many of you are still valuing them as strictly bullion coins.

    And yes, it's unfortunate that they went through the bullion distribution network since, well, greed is greed and businesses tacked on their own hefty premiums. The question is whether these collectibles are now undervalued or overvalued. >>




    The reason we are still valuing these as bullion coins is becuase right now they are still bullion coins, still in the hands of bullion dealers and bullion channels. They are supposed to be distributed as bullion with fair bullion values.

    The issue is that the bullion dealers have been given a case of golden eggs and instead of making the normal bullion profit like they are supposed to they are taking advantage of the collecters value and pricing these at well above bullion value.

    From my understanding... The Mint has a specific list of bullion distributors and they are supposed to abide by the mint's protocal. That is to value these as bullion for the only means of distribution. The bullion dealers are not following this protocal and are pricing these at collector prices. They are out to make as much money as possible and I understand that is business, but as one of only a few official government distributors I would expect them to follow protocal and price them as bullion. I would have expected that the distributors would have agreed with a contract or something to follow certain guidelines? JMHO
  • CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>And yes, it's unfortunate that they went through the bullion distribution network since, well, greed is greed and businesses tacked on their own hefty premiums. >>

    Businesses cannot tack on hefty premiums if there is no demand, yet nobody seems to be blaming those who are generating that demand for the hefty premiums being asked. Curious... >>




    I think people are reacting to the fact that distributors are expected to view their function as a distributor, not speculator but I don't think it was a big surprise.
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
  • 7over87over8 Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭
    I'll wait for MCM to price theirs.


  • << <i>The issue is that the bullion dealers have been given a case of golden eggs and instead of making the normal bullion profit like they are supposed to they are taking advantage of the collecters value and pricing these at well above bullion value. >>

    Unless they're holding a gun to buyers' heads, they're taking advantage of nobody. Do you not suppose that, should they have offered the golden eggs at bullion+ prices, they'd immediately sell out to buyers who would reprice the eggs to their actual current market value?
  • HyperionHyperion Posts: 7,438 ✭✭✭
    I'll wait til silver sags and a year or two when the bottom fall out of the market for 'em. anything new has a curiosity factor to them.


  • << <i>I think people are reacting to the fact that distributors are expected to view their function as a distributor, not speculator but I don't think it was a big surprise. >>

    I can't imagine why anybody would be surprised to find a business reluctant to sell below current market levels. Just because you want to buy something for $X is no reason to expect that it should be made available to you at that price.
  • I am afraid to miss the boat and decide to get some. 670 left now.
  • CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I think these will not be a collectible but after the fervor dies down and the flippers are done, they will be sold for silver content nothing more on the after market.... >>



    I disagree. I think they will always have a premium as a coaster for your cold one.image
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
  • BigDaddyzBigDaddyz Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭
    I just don't think there were enough of these to be distributed in the normal distributor->dealer->consumer channels.
    Plus, to sell these as bullion but only make 33k each of them is crazy. Bullion was meant to be purchased in quantity...if the price of these was low they would be snatched up by a very few people.
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  • 7over87over8 Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭
    it is a free market, but guys, if you are a first tier distributor - im surprised that there isnt a contractual obligation to limit excessive premiums over purchase price......$55 per oz is VERY EXCESSIVE.

    why?

    because you have been afforded the ability to buy direct at LOW premiums from the US Mint. You already would have a locked in profit.....

    reasonable rates would be no more than $10 over spot per oz-IMO.

    might as well wait for the numismatic version, they will be more limited, and most likely less $$$$
  • OLCOLC Posts: 392 ✭✭✭
    Is there another silver coin out there with similiar mintage as these? If so whatdoes the market have that coin valued at? This low of mintage seems extremely low in the silver arena.
  • Batman23Batman23 Posts: 4,999 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The issue is that the bullion dealers have been given a case of golden eggs and instead of making the normal bullion profit like they are supposed to they are taking advantage of the collecters value and pricing these at well above bullion value. >>

    Unless they're holding a gun to buyers' heads, they're taking advantage of nobody. Do you not suppose that, should they have offered the golden eggs at bullion+ prices, they'd immediately sell out to buyers who would reprice the eggs to their actual current market value? >>



    I think that they are taking advantage of the government process. The government just handed a select few a large amount of silver based at a market value spot price. There is no other chanel than this. The first line distributors are making profits that far exceed bullion value. They are taking advantage of the government process and thereby anyone that buys directly from them at the high price.

    I understand that the second level distributors can ask anything they want to and no one has to pay that price, but I would expect the government distribution to have higher standards and more rules attached.


  • << <i>im surprised that there isnt a contractual obligation to limit excessive premiums over purchase price......$55 per oz is VERY EXCESSIVE. >>

    Suppose the distributor is limited by contract to a minimum amount over spot. What do you think happens then? They immediately sell out, and the secondary buyers raise prices to where they are now.
  • SoundPointSoundPoint Posts: 255 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Once the mintage went from 100,000 per to 33,000 per, you had to know that the transformation from bullion to sought after collectible was occurring. >>




    I tend to agree!

    33,000 units per 1st year issue on five coins may equal Instant Rarity, especially if people buy more than one set!
  • CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I think people are reacting to the fact that distributors are expected to view their function as a distributor, not speculator but I don't think it was a big surprise. >>

    I can't imagine why anybody would be surprised to find a business reluctant to sell below current market levels. Just because you want to buy something for $X is no reason to expect that it should be made available to you at that price. >>




    It is only because the distributors have a special (privileged) position with the US government. This is not ordinary market situation. To me is would be like government relief workers taking government relief supplies and selling them to the needy and pocketing the profits. Not a perfect analogy but I was in a hurry.
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.


  • << <i>I think that they are taking advantage of the government process. >>

    You mean like all the people who return their coins when they don't think they'll grade out as a 70? Yeah, that's probably about right. Who's fault is that, though? The people who make the rules, or those who have to follow them?


  • << <i>It is only because the distributors have a special (privileged) position with the US government. >>

    Sounds like your complaint is with the government for allowing the privilege in the first place, not for those following the government's rules.

    << <i>This is not ordinary market situation. >>

    Whose fault is that? Certainly not the distributors.
  • CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>It is only because the distributors have a special (privileged) position with the US government. >>

    Sounds like your complaint is with the government for allowing the privilege in the first place, not for those following the government's rules.

    << <i>This is not ordinary market situation. >>

    Whose fault is that? Certainly not the distributors. >>




    There is plenty of reason to fault the government but that is not allowed here. On the other hand I think the distributors have a moral duty to follow the intention of their mandate even if the rules don't specifically outline each detail.
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
  • BigDaddyzBigDaddyz Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭
    if they come out with 100,000 of each next year because of the popularity...these 5 will be good as gold
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  • << <i>On the other hand I think the distributors have a moral duty to follow the intention of their mandate even if the rules don't specifically outline each detail. >>

    What exactly is their mandate?

    edited to add... I would imagine (although, to be honest, I don't know for sure) there are obligations the distributors are required to uphold. If they're not doing so, they are rightly condemned. Making a larger than expected profit due to the government's miscalculation regarding mintages and demand may or may not violate those obligations.
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My take is this: the Mint used dealers for the first go around to maximize their
    dollars (less or no returns and problems) which will pay for the new press to
    produce the pucks. Now come January they will offer directly at the normal bullion
    profit margin.


    bobimage

    PS: I'll buy them in ten years when the price is $100 each.
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • CCC2010CCC2010 Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I'll wait for MCM to price theirs. >>



    Asked the MCM customer service earlier today and asked them if their National Park 5 Oz rounds will be sold graded and they said Yes. IF Apmex sells out their 900 over the weekend there is no reason that MCM will not price theirs North of the current Apmex price especially if they are going to be gradedimage
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  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭
    you think silver will hit $20?
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • GeomanGeoman Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭
    I am in for two sets. Didn't really want to at this price, but I have a few customers asking for them. However, once they see what the price is, I am afraid I'll be stuck with these.
  • United States Mint America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins&#153; Available December 6
    Wednesday, December 01, 2010, 9:30:00 AM

    WASHINGTON - The United States Mint is pleased to announce the release of its new America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coins on December 6. The three-inch, five-ounce silver coins-the first of their kind produced by the United States Mint-are investment-grade coins with weight, content and purity guaranteed by the U.S. government. The coins are struck in .999 fine silver.

  • CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>On the other hand I think the distributors have a moral duty to follow the intention of their mandate even if the rules don't specifically outline each detail. >>

    What exactly is their mandate? >>



    Seem clear that they are to function as a distribution channel for the government. In return for that function they get a set built in standard profit margin (which is not bad). I don't think the government would like them playing speculative games instead. That is how I see it and I think that is what the howling is about.
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
  • 7over87over8 Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭
    and my expectation of the quality of these .....

    bad. roll quality.

    wait for the numismatic version. rarer and cheaper.


  • << <i>Seem clear that they are to function as a distribution channel for the government. In return for that function they get a set built in standard profit margin (which is not bad). >>

    Clearly, they are the distribution channel. What the "standard" profit marigin is, is not so clear.

    << <i>I don't think the government would like them playing speculative games instead. >>

    If that's the case, I'm sure the government will be setting things straight shortly. Right?

    << <i>That is how I see it and I think that is what the howling is about. >>

    That, and the reduced flipping opportunities, I'm sure... image

    edited- spelling
  • CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭


    << <i>and my expectation of the quality of these .....

    bad. roll quality.

    wait for the numismatic version. rarer and cheaper. >>




    Ok but it will not be the same coin if that matters to you.
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
  • botanistbotanist Posts: 524 ✭✭✭
    Among the questions to ask oneself are these two:

    1. Do you want to start a personal collection of these, for any reason, such as because you find them attractive, or even for no conscious reason at all?

    2. Do you think these will be a profitable investment compared to your other available options, numismatic and non-numismatic?

    I've finally decided no on question 1 for myself. Of course the outcome to question 2 cannot be resolved in advance.
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The only good thing out of all of this (unless you are a distributor and you get a huge profit with basically no risk), is that maybe with all of the complaints about price-gouging, the Mint will change the manner of distribution for next year's hockey pucks.

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • CoinspongeCoinsponge Posts: 3,927 ✭✭✭
    Q]That is how I see it and I think that is what the howling is about. >>

    That, and the reduced flipping opportunities, I'm sure... image



    OOOOuuuuch!
    Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The only good thing out of all of this (unless you are a distributor and you get a huge profit with basically no risk), is that maybe with all of the complaints about price-gouging, the Mint will change the manner of distribution for next year's hockey pucks. >>




    the law would need to be altered.


    it's possible, though.
    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions

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