<< <i>]Of course the initial supply is not a free market. Is anything the government does a free market? Once APMEX listed the coins for sale though, I don't see how you could call it anything other than free market- APMEX set a price, and people bought (or not) as they saw fit. >>
Potato, I don't know about you, but I'm getting back to the football games.
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. If the deciding factor was the price on a rather unique coin with a low mintage then it would seem that the interest was based primarily on the ability to sell for a profit. I bought 2 sets and it hurt but not because I was sore at APMEX but because I was torn between how much silver bullion I could buy for the same money. I think many would argue that bullion is a store of wealth and I would agree. I'll be dissapointed if these coins fall below the 1395 originally asked but if they remain liquid at that cost I'm happy as I believe I will be enjoying the coins for a long time. >>
You're misunderstanding the issue which is the source of the outrage. If the U.S. Mint had offered these direct to the public, there would be no such issue, as there would be no opportunity for abuse. This issue arises only because of the fact of these private distribution channels. >>
If the U.S. Mint had offered these direct to the public, there would be no such issue, as there would be no opportunity for abuse. This issue arises only because of the fact of these private distribution channels. >>
EXACTLY!!!!! >>
Maybe the abuse would have come from the Mint in that case judging by the current offers. I mean gold at $300 over melt seems abusive to me. It wasn't that long ago when gold WAS $300.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. If the deciding factor was the price on a rather unique coin with a low mintage then it would seem that the interest was based primarily on the ability to sell for a profit. I bought 2 sets and it hurt but not because I was sore at APMEX but because I was torn between how much silver bullion I could buy for the same money. I think many would argue that bullion is a store of wealth and I would agree. I'll be dissapointed if these coins fall below the 1395 originally asked but if they remain liquid at that cost I'm happy as I believe I will be enjoying the coins for a long time. >>
You're misunderstanding the issue which is the source of the outrage. If the U.S. Mint had offered these direct to the public, there would be no such issue, as there would be no opportunity for abuse. This issue arises only because of the fact of these private distribution channels. >>
Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs. >>
Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs. >>
You don't recall much complaining because THERE WAS NONE!!! For the life of me I don't understand - after the hundreds of posts explaining the exact source of many of our outrage - how you and others just don't get it and continue to post posts asking where the outrage was with other issues.
For the hundredth + time the outrage is at the flagrant abuse of the Authorized Distributor program which APMEX and others have perpetrated to make a killing.
With the '08/'07, and ALL of the other examples which others have cited, anyone who was paying attention had a fair shake to get them directly from The Mint. Those who missed the boat - like myself (was out of town/w no computer) paid the premium w/ absolutely no hard feelings. It was a fair process. I missed the boat. That's the way it is.
As has been discussed and detailed ad nauseam earlier in this thread, it is the abuse of the program by the Auth. Dist. which has so many of us fuming and counting down the minutes until we can call The Mint's legal dept. and others.
Did you even read the previous posts explaining all of this prior to posting?? It's really easy to understand. Your '08/'07 example has NOTHING to do with this current situation.
<< <i>For the hundredth + time the outrage is at the flagrant abuse of the Authorized Distributor program which APMEX and others have perpetrated to make a killing. >>
APMEX and the rest of the distributors set up this system explicitly to enrich themselves at the public's expense? That's the complaint? Okay then.
It will be interesting to see if the US Mint does anything in regards to the gouging being done by the distributors?
Also I find it interesting that some think the prices are somewhat justified, will be "keys", and they will be in high demand it the future, comparing them to SAE's and other collector bullion products. I have no idea what these will sell for in the future but I can guess. We really don't have to look much further than the very popular and widely collected Lunars that have a long track record. Traditionally the 5 oz and 10 oz Lunars sell for only small premiums. It's the 1/2 oz, 1 oz and 2 oz products that sell for large premiums for scarce or popular dates. I was in the local BM this weekend and they had a 10 oz 2001 Lunar snake for $425....no takers. With a mintage of 3962 pieces this is very rare. Bullion stackers will pay slight premiums but at $42 per oz it's not worth it, so no interest from that group for the snake. But I also find it interesting there are not enough collectors out there for this large bullion either to drive the price up. These 5 oz quarters are hot and selling fast now, but the vast majority of what has already sold are to re-sell. I just don't see 33,000 collectors of these down the road and stackers won't touch them. Also with the collector version coming out the mintage is now effectively doubled. It won't matter to most which version they own. So now we need 60,000 collectors......
Time will tell and I might be totally wrong but with the price of silver exploding and 250 oz of silver in a complete set, we have already eliminated collectors of modest means at these inflated prices. The distributors have taken the lion's share of the profits.....too bad...I'm hoping the mint takes action as I'm sure they are being flooded with tons of complaints.
<< <i>It will be interesting to see if the US Mint does anything in regards to the gouging being done by the distributors?
Also I find it interesting that some think the prices are somewhat justified, will be "keys", and they will be in high demand it the future, comparing them to SAE's and other collector bullion products. I have no idea what these will sell for in the future but I can guess. We really don't have to look much further than the very popular and widely collected Lunars that have a long track record. Traditionally the 5 oz and 10 oz Lunars sell for only small premiums. It's the 1/2 oz, 1 oz and 2 oz products that sell for large premiums for scarce or popular dates. I was in the local BM this weekend and they had a 10 oz 2001 Lunar snake for $425....no takers. With a mintage of 3962 pieces this is very rare. Bullion stackers will pay slight premiums but at $42 per oz it's not worth it, so no interest from that group for the snake. But I also find it interesting there are not enough collectors out there for this large bullion either to drive the price up. These 5 oz quarters are hot and selling fast now, but the vast majority of what has already sold are to re-sell. I just don't see 33,000 collectors of these down the road and stackers won't touch them. Also with the collector version coming out the mintage is now effectively doubled. It won't matter to most which version they own. So now we need 60,000 collectors......
Time will tell and I might be totally wrong but with the price of silver exploding and 250 oz of silver in a complete set, we have already eliminated collectors of modest means at these inflated prices. The distributors have taken the lion's share of the profits.....too bad...I'm hoping the mint takes action as I'm sure they are being flooded with tons of complaints. >>
<< <i>Also I find it interesting that some think the prices are somewhat justified >>
Being that the transactions have been between willing buyers and sellers, the current prices are entirely justified. Whether or not the current values hold up over time have nothing to do with what's happening right now. Lots of new issues sell for premiums early on, but fall in price as time passes.
<< <i>These 5 oz quarters are hot and selling fast now, but the vast majority of what has already sold are to re-sell. I just don't see 33,000 collectors of these down the road... >>
If that's so, what's the big fuss about? You can just buy them later when the price comes down, can't you?
<< <i>The distributors have taken the lion's share of the profits.... >>
According to your analysis, those profits have come from the flippers: "the vast majority of what has already sold are to re-sell. If that's so, once again, what's the big fuss about?
You can't compare Australian coins to US. I had a Canadian gold coin with a mintage of 3000 that I could only get a little over melt for, if it was US would have brought moon money. Many examples of this, just go over to the darkside and see how much action there is over there----------BigE
<< <i>Being that the transactions have been between willing buyers and sellers, the current prices are entirely justified. Whether or not the current values hold up over time have nothing to do with what's happening right now. Lots of new issues sell for premiums early on, but fall in price as time passes.
<< <i>
The prices the distributors set was in no way justified.....just because transactions have occurred is of no relevance as to what is justified. Plain and simple they didn't follow the mint's guidelines for distribution of these bullion coins. Once the coins are out of the distributors hands they can sell for whatever the market will bare and be completely justified.
An interesting note...Evidently, all the "sales" on ebay of these things yesterday for $1749 and many for $299 appear to have not happened at all. Upon looking at the completed auction, it says "the auction has ended" and there is no buyer. Most (maybe all) of the $1700+ sales say "the auction has ended and the seller has relisted this item or a similar one".
So, possibly someone was creating an artificial sales history? Anyone know coinbuster60?
Great BST experiences: abitofthisabitofthat, silvercoinsdude, gerard, coinfame, mikescoins, wondercoin
<< <i>An interesting note...Evidently, all the "sales" on ebay of these things yesterday for $1749 and many for $299 appear to have not happened at all. Upon looking at the completed auction, it says "the auction has ended" and there is no buyer. Most (maybe all) of the $1700+ sales say "the auction has ended and the seller has relisted this item or a similar one".
So, possibly someone was creating an artificial sales history? Anyone know coinbuster60? >>
Not sure what you're looking at, but I see well over 40 completed sales $1,679+ ...with unique multiple buyers on the Dutch style auctions
<< <i>Plain and simple they didn't follow the mint's guidelines for distribution of these bullion coins. >>
Based on the prices these are selling for, they are not being considered "bullion" by either buyers or sellers.
edited to add... if the mint wanted these to be bullion coins, why is the mintage limited? Maybe you should all write to the mint (and your congressmen) insisting that the mint be authorized to strike these coins to demand, for as long as there is such? Or is it easier to just complain about gouging?
No offense intended Brothers, really, I understand.
The difference between the way many see it and I see it is that I don't expect, or believe, that anybody who is selling these coins gives a damn about me, and I'm right. To expect otherwise is wishful thinking. Am I wrong in assuming the reason folks are upset is that they wanted the coin at bullion prices and thought the MINT would protect them after they sold them to their distributors, or were they supposed to TELL them what they could sell them for?
That sounds like trouble to me, the US MINT determining fair prices for bullion.
<< <i>An interesting note...Evidently, all the "sales" on ebay of these things yesterday for $1749 and many for $299 appear to have not happened at all. Upon looking at the completed auction, it says "the auction has ended" and there is no buyer. Most (maybe all) of the $1700+ sales say "the auction has ended and the seller has relisted this item or a similar one".
So, possibly someone was creating an artificial sales history? Anyone know coinbuster60? >>
Found these 11 from one seller and there are more from other sellers:
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. If the deciding factor was the price on a rather unique coin with a low mintage then it would seem that the interest was based primarily on the ability to sell for a profit. I bought 2 sets and it hurt but not because I was sore at APMEX but because I was torn between how much silver bullion I could buy for the same money. I think many would argue that bullion is a store of wealth and I would agree. I'll be dissapointed if these coins fall below the 1395 originally asked but if they remain liquid at that cost I'm happy as I believe I will be enjoying the coins for a long time. >>
You're misunderstanding the issue which is the source of the outrage. If the U.S. Mint had offered these direct to the public, there would be no such issue, as there would be no opportunity for abuse. This issue arises only because of the fact of these private distribution channels. >>
Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs. >>
Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs. >>
You don't recall much complaining because THERE WAS NONE!!! For the life of me I don't understand - after the hundreds of posts explaining the exact source of many of our outrage - how you and others just don't get it and continue to post posts asking where the outrage was with other issues.
For the hundredth + time the outrage is at the flagrant abuse of the Authorized Distributor program which APMEX and others have perpetrated to make a killing.
With the '08/'07, and ALL of the other examples which others have cited, anyone who was paying attention had a fair shake to get them directly from The Mint. Those who missed the boat - like myself (was out of town/w no computer) paid the premium w/ absolutely no hard feelings. It was a fair process. I missed the boat. That's the way it is.
As has been discussed and detailed ad nauseam earlier in this thread, it is the abuse of the program by the Auth. Dist. which has so many of us fuming and counting down the minutes until we can call The Mint's legal dept. and others.
Did you even read the previous posts explaining all of this prior to posting?? It's really easy to understand. Your '08/'07 example has NOTHING to do with this current situation. >>
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about the coins or the pricing as I have no interest in these. I'm just a chit stirrer and I fully understand the source of the disgruntlement. I get the feeling that some here feel that only the public is entitled to profit at the mint's expense. I didn't hear any complaining when others here charged exorbitant prices for stuff they got cheap from the mint. Look on the bright side, maybe the mint will rethink its policy on bullion.
<< <i>You can't compare Australian coins to US. I had a Canadian gold coin with a mintage of 3000 that I could only get a little over melt for, if it was US would have brought moon money. Many examples of this, just go over to the darkside and see how much action there is over there----------BigE >>
No question. I have a few Canadian gold IMAX sharks. They are a commerative issue w/a sub 300 montage. They barely command much over spot.
<< <i>You can't compare Australian coins to US. I had a Canadian gold coin with a mintage of 3000 that I could only get a little over melt for, if it was US would have brought moon money. Many examples of this, just go over to the darkside and see how much action there is over there----------BigE >>
Lots of low mintage US bullion coins sell for barely over spot too, spouse, plats etc.... It's the series popularity not the mintage. The Lunars are very popular and well established and the smaller sizes can sell for many times spot that's why I used it in my example. But you are right and it's true, an exact comparison can't be made. Also I realize this is the first big bullion the US mint has produced so yes it very well could be crazy popular and in high demand in the future. Like I said time will tell, but big bullion does not have a very good track record for selling much over spot regardless of the mintage or country of origin.
Being old it is sometimes difficult to understand things.
After reading these 400+ posts I finally understand the outrage and I think justified.
1. These distributors get an amazing discount on the bullion, The mint sells these to them almost at cost. 2. They are responsible to make available to retailers and the public at a fair price because in affect the are an arm of the US Mint. 3. They themselves are not the "retailers" but Distributors of the Mint. 4. They purchased these at about $800 per set and I think $1000 per set would be more than fair mark up as distributors.
($200 per set x 3,000 sets $600,000 to distribute these is more than reasonable, because they are distributors and not retailers.)
I too hope the Mint 'Spanks' each distributor that took advantage of these.
Earlier post asked "What should Apmex have done?"
Put the 3,000 up for sale at $1000 per set (very tidy profit) and limit to 1 set per person. As they supposedly did: notify there "Alerts" requests first.
Put the 3,000 up for sale at $1000 per set (very tidy profit) and limit to 1 set per person. As they supposedly did: notify there "Alerts" requests first.
... >>
That assumes they have a process or mechanism already in place for imposing limits. I doubt that they do. They would have to do the same heavy-handed work the Mint does when they impose household limits.
edited to add... if the mint wanted these to be bullion coins, why is the mintage limited? Maybe you should all write to the mint (and your congressmen) insisting that the mint be authorized to strike these coins to demand, for as long as there is such? Or is it easier to just complain about gouging? >>
The mintage is limited because the Mint ran out of time. The coins must be minted and, in the case of the bullion coins, distributed before the end of the year. Production snafus and the complexities of minting these things for the very first time caused the shortened schedule.
<< <i>They would have to do the same heavy-handed work the Mint does when they impose household limits. >>
No kidding. I've been here long enough to remember the posts about how people were working on getting around the mint's limits when a popular new item is released.
<< <i>The mintage is limited because the Mint ran out of time. The coins must be minted and, in the case of the bullion coins, sold before the end of the year. Production snafus and the complexities of minting these things for the very first time caused the shortened schedule. >>
The fact there aren't enough coins to go around is not the distributor's fault. If the mint can't get their act together, the blame falls there. Clearly, these coins are not currently being considered as bullion by buyers, so why should sellers act otherwise?
The fact there aren't enough coins to go around is not the distributor's fault. If the mint can't get their act together, the blame falls there. Clearly, these coins are not currently being considered as bullion by buyers, so why should sellers act otherwise?
Gee, I dunno. Maybe because the law authorizing these coins and their distributor agreement mandates it?
The outrage is not because the Mint didn't have their act together. The outrage is because the distributors are raping the public in violation of their agreements.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i> The outrage is not because the Mint didn't have their act together. The outrage is because the distributors are raping the public in violation of their agreements. >>
Let us face it.....the PUBLIC (mostly you and I) are not going to be in on the PRIMARY offering of this deal.....Why can't everyone seem to understand this???? Again I will use my IPO analogy....the public does not get first crack at this....PRIMARY AND SECONDARY dealers do and we pick up the scraps....
Nobody wrote 300+ posts when GM was priced 2 weeks ago....and the pricing was increased 3x????? if you wanted it at the number you bought it....if not pass....NO AGREEMENTS were violated....personally i just think that everyone here is disappointed that there will be no ridiculous $500 flip in it to those unsuspecting people on ebay....
collect it if you like it or not...
jmho gyros
ps i am not a dealer....nor a flipper....just a collector (and yes i bought 2 at the $1395 price....is it a good decision???? we'll see....said the wise old lady in Aliquippa PA...
<< <i>The fact there aren't enough coins to go around is not the distributor's fault. If the mint can't get their act together, the blame falls there. Clearly, these coins are not currently being considered as bullion by buyers, so why should sellers act otherwise? >>
This is stated under section II in the PROCEDURES TO QUALIFY FOR BULK PURCHASE OF SILVER BULLION COINS
"The United States Mint is interested in ensuring that the coins minted and issued under its American Eagle and America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coin Programs are distributed effectively and efficiently and in a manner that ensures that the bullion coins are competitive with bullion products produced by other international mints. To accomplish this goal, the United States Mint seeks to utilize private sector distribution channels that ensure that the coins are:
A. As widely available to the public as possible; B. Bought and sold at prices/premiums that are in line with other similar silver bullion coin products in the marketplace; and C. Bought and sold in a manner that ensures relatively low transaction costs.
Due in part to the commodity-like, investment nature of these coins characterized by constantly fluctuating precious metal prices, the United States Mint has determined that the most effective and efficient means for bullion coin distribution is through the use of the well-established silver bullion coin distribution network in the private sector. This network consists of hundreds of coin and precious metals dealers, participating banks, brokerage companies and other financial intermediaries."
Maintain buy/sell premiums for the United States Mint silver bullion coins with as narrow a spread between buy and sell prices as prudent business judgment/market conditions permits. These premiums are to be competitive with those charged for other bullion coins, considering prevailing market conditions.
II. PURPOSE The United States Mint is interested in ensuring that the coins minted and issued under its American Eagle and America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coin Programs are distributed effectively and efficiently and in a manner that ensures that the bullion coins are competitive with bullion products produced by other international mints. To accomplish this goal, the United States Mint seeks to utilize private sector distribution channels that ensure that the coins are:
A. As widely available to the public as possible; B. Bought and sold at prices/premiums that are in line with other similar silver bullion coin products in the marketplace; and C. Bought and sold in a manner that ensures relatively low transaction costs.
Due in part to the commodity-like, investment nature of these coins characterized by constantly fluctuating precious metal prices, the United States Mint has determined that the most effective and efficient means for bullion coin distribution is through the use of the well-established silver bullion coin distribution network in the private sector. This network consists of hundreds of coin and precious metals dealers, participating banks, brokerage companies and other financial intermediaries.
<< <i>Interesting the spirit intended for distributors.
considering prevailing market conditions. >>
APMEX stated that they had quantity BID at $1500 from a NUMBER of Dealers.....so they made a market....$1395 BID .....don't blame APMEX .....blame the dealers who were paying $1500....
Thinking about this it seems that the problem is that bullion distribution is not usually offered in extremely limited quantities so the system usually works without a lot of policing but this issue due to striking difficulties had to be greatly limited but I think Congress mandated it to go through the bullion program. The limited quantities basically converted the bullion character of this issue to a numismatic one and therefor the crazy prices. Just another government screw up and the distributors got dollar signs in their eyes. Probably will not happen again in my estimation and the distributors may later regret what they did in terms of good will lost.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
Let us face it.....the PUBLIC (mostly you and I) are not going to be in on the PRIMARY offering of this deal.....Why can't everyone seem to understand this???? Again I will use my IPO analogy....the public does not get first crack at this....PRIMARY AND SECONDARY dealers do and we pick up the scraps....
Nobody wrote 300+ posts when GM was priced 2 weeks ago....and the pricing was increased 3x????? if you wanted it at the number you bought it....if not pass....NO AGREEMENTS were violated....personally i just think that everyone here is disappointed that there will be no ridiculous $500 flip in it to those unsuspecting people on ebay....
collect it if you like it or not...
Gyro, everyone can't understand this because it is not what the authorizing legislation requires and it is not what the distributor requirement specifies. Why can't you understand that? I know that you need to justify your purchase, but those who had the same "opportunity" as you also made a judgement and chose not to buy.
Frankly, I think you should be refunded about $611.25, which is the difference between the market price for bullion coins and the price-gouge number you paid. This deal isn't governed by the IPO regulations. The rules here were clearly established by legislation and by contract law. This has nothing to do with the flip potential on ebay. This has to do with the rules.
It does seem as if the rules aren't rules anymore for those who chose to ignore them. When I decide to ignore a few rules myself, will you think poorly of me?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Maintain buy/sell premiums for the United States Mint silver bullion coins with as narrow a spread between buy and sell prices as prudent business judgment/market conditions permits. These premiums are to be competitive with those charged for other bullion coins, considering prevailing market conditions.
II. PURPOSE The United States Mint is interested in ensuring that the coins minted and issued under its American Eagle and America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coin Programs are distributed effectively and efficiently and in a manner that ensures that the bullion coins are competitive with bullion products produced by other international mints. To accomplish this goal, the United States Mint seeks to utilize private sector distribution channels that ensure that the coins are:
A. As widely available to the public as possible; B. Bought and sold at prices/premiums that are in line with other similar silver bullion coin products in the marketplace; and C. Bought and sold in a manner that ensures relatively low transaction costs.
Due in part to the commodity-like, investment nature of these coins characterized by constantly fluctuating precious metal prices, the United States Mint has determined that the most effective and efficient means for bullion coin distribution is through the use of the well-established silver bullion coin distribution network in the private sector. This network consists of hundreds of coin and precious metals dealers, participating banks, brokerage companies and other financial intermediaries. >>
I certainly hope that The Mint's legal dept. is absolutely FLOODED with calls on this massive APMEX (and likely others) contract violations tomorrow. GIVE 'EM HELL!!!
<< <i>Interesting the spirit intended for distributors.
considering prevailing market conditions. >>
APMEX stated that they had quantity BID at $1500 from a NUMBER of Dealers.....so they made a market....$1395 BID .....don't blame APMEX .....blame the dealers who were paying $1500.... >>
This is total B.S. As has been posted numerous times, thier job and obligations are clearly spelled out in the Auth. Dist. agreement.
<< <i>Interesting the spirit intended for distributors.
considering prevailing market conditions. >>
APMEX stated that they had quantity BID at $1500 from a NUMBER of Dealers.....so they made a market....$1395 BID .....don't blame APMEX .....blame the dealers who were paying $1500.... >>
This is total B.S. As has been posted numerous times, thier job and obligations are clearly spelled out in the Auth. Dist. agreement. >>
This is APMEX. and the others reply , for ripping off the public" The only way to respond is not to buy and complain to the Mint tomorrow,
Comments
<< <i>]Of course the initial supply is not a free market. Is anything the government does a free market? Once APMEX listed the coins for sale though, I don't see how you could call it anything other than free market- APMEX set a price, and people bought (or not) as they saw fit. >>
Potato, I don't know about you, but I'm getting back to the football games.
<< <i>They were posting over on the goldismoney forum, linky here.
Forum linky >>
Thanks, I'll definitely share my thoughts with them...happy to answer his question.
<< <i>
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. If the deciding factor was the price on a rather unique coin with a low mintage then it would seem that the interest was based primarily on the ability to sell for a profit. I bought 2 sets and it hurt but not because I was sore at APMEX but because I was torn between how much silver bullion I could buy for the same money. I think many would argue that bullion is a store of wealth and I would agree. I'll be dissapointed if these coins fall below the 1395 originally asked but if they remain liquid at that cost I'm happy as I believe I will be enjoying the coins for a long time. >>
You're misunderstanding the issue which is the source of the outrage. If the U.S. Mint had offered these direct to the public, there would be no such issue, as there would be no opportunity for abuse. This issue arises only because of the fact of these private distribution channels. >>
EXACTLY!!!!!
EXACTLY!!!!! >>
Maybe the abuse would have come from the Mint in that case judging by the current offers. I mean gold at $300 over melt seems abusive to me. It wasn't that long ago when gold WAS $300.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. If the deciding factor was the price on a rather unique coin with a low mintage then it would seem that the interest was based primarily on the ability to sell for a profit. I bought 2 sets and it hurt but not because I was sore at APMEX but because I was torn between how much silver bullion I could buy for the same money. I think many would argue that bullion is a store of wealth and I would agree. I'll be dissapointed if these coins fall below the 1395 originally asked but if they remain liquid at that cost I'm happy as I believe I will be enjoying the coins for a long time. >>
You're misunderstanding the issue which is the source of the outrage. If the U.S. Mint had offered these direct to the public, there would be no such issue, as there would be no opportunity for abuse. This issue arises only because of the fact of these private distribution channels. >>
Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs. >>
Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs. >>
You don't recall much complaining because THERE WAS NONE!!! For the life of me I don't understand - after the hundreds of posts explaining the exact source of many of our outrage - how you and others just don't get it and continue to post posts asking where the outrage was with other issues.
For the hundredth + time the outrage is at the flagrant abuse of the Authorized Distributor program which APMEX and others have perpetrated to make a killing.
With the '08/'07, and ALL of the other examples which others have cited, anyone who was paying attention had a fair shake to get them directly from The Mint. Those who missed the boat - like myself (was out of town/w no computer) paid the premium w/ absolutely no hard feelings. It was a fair process. I missed the boat. That's the way it is.
As has been discussed and detailed ad nauseam earlier in this thread, it is the abuse of the program by the Auth. Dist. which has so many of us fuming and counting down the minutes until we can call The Mint's legal dept. and others.
Did you even read the previous posts explaining all of this prior to posting?? It's really easy to understand. Your '08/'07 example has NOTHING to do with this current situation.
<< <i>I wasn't aware that these sets are "Completely Sold Out!!!" at all suppliers?? >>
dont believe everything you read in auctions------------------BigE
<< <i>I wasn't aware that these sets are "Completely Sold Out!!!" at all suppliers?? >>
Sure. If it is in print it has to be true.
<< <i>For the hundredth + time the outrage is at the flagrant abuse of the Authorized Distributor program which APMEX and others have perpetrated to make a killing. >>
APMEX and the rest of the distributors set up this system explicitly to enrich themselves at the public's expense? That's the complaint? Okay then.
<< <i>Just got an e-mail from APMEX that they are sending my hockey pucks by this Wednesday. >>
Probably not, read the rest of the email.
"If your order has items that were “Pre-Sold”, your order will be shipped in full once those items arrive."
Also I find it interesting that some think the prices are somewhat justified, will be "keys", and they will be in high demand it the future, comparing them to SAE's and other collector bullion products. I have no idea what these will sell for in the future but I can guess. We really don't have to look much further than the very popular and widely collected Lunars that have a long track record. Traditionally the 5 oz and 10 oz Lunars sell for only small premiums. It's the 1/2 oz, 1 oz and 2 oz products that sell for large premiums for scarce or popular dates. I was in the local BM this weekend and they had a 10 oz 2001 Lunar snake for $425....no takers. With a mintage of 3962 pieces this is very rare. Bullion stackers will pay slight premiums but at $42 per oz it's not worth it, so no interest from that group for the snake. But I also find it interesting there are not enough collectors out there for this large bullion either to drive the price up. These 5 oz quarters are hot and selling fast now, but the vast majority of what has already sold are to re-sell. I just don't see 33,000 collectors of these down the road and stackers won't touch them. Also with the collector version coming out the mintage is now effectively doubled. It won't matter to most which version they own. So now we need 60,000 collectors......
Time will tell and I might be totally wrong but with the price of silver exploding and 250 oz of silver in a complete set, we have already eliminated collectors of modest means at these inflated prices. The distributors have taken the lion's share of the profits.....too bad...I'm hoping the mint takes action as I'm sure they are being flooded with tons of complaints.
<< <i>It will be interesting to see if the US Mint does anything in regards to the gouging being done by the distributors?
Also I find it interesting that some think the prices are somewhat justified, will be "keys", and they will be in high demand it the future, comparing them to SAE's and other collector bullion products. I have no idea what these will sell for in the future but I can guess. We really don't have to look much further than the very popular and widely collected Lunars that have a long track record. Traditionally the 5 oz and 10 oz Lunars sell for only small premiums. It's the 1/2 oz, 1 oz and 2 oz products that sell for large premiums for scarce or popular dates. I was in the local BM this weekend and they had a 10 oz 2001 Lunar snake for $425....no takers. With a mintage of 3962 pieces this is very rare. Bullion stackers will pay slight premiums but at $42 per oz it's not worth it, so no interest from that group for the snake. But I also find it interesting there are not enough collectors out there for this large bullion either to drive the price up. These 5 oz quarters are hot and selling fast now, but the vast majority of what has already sold are to re-sell. I just don't see 33,000 collectors of these down the road and stackers won't touch them. Also with the collector version coming out the mintage is now effectively doubled. It won't matter to most which version they own. So now we need 60,000 collectors......
Time will tell and I might be totally wrong but with the price of silver exploding and 250 oz of silver in a complete set, we have already eliminated collectors of modest means at these inflated prices. The distributors have taken the lion's share of the profits.....too bad...I'm hoping the mint takes action as I'm sure they are being flooded with tons of complaints. >>
<< <i>Also I find it interesting that some think the prices are somewhat justified >>
Being that the transactions have been between willing buyers and sellers, the current prices are entirely justified. Whether or not the current values hold up over time have nothing to do with what's happening right now. Lots of new issues sell for premiums early on, but fall in price as time passes.
<< <i>These 5 oz quarters are hot and selling fast now, but the vast majority of what has already sold are to re-sell. I just don't see 33,000 collectors of these down the road... >>
If that's so, what's the big fuss about? You can just buy them later when the price comes down, can't you?
<< <i>The distributors have taken the lion's share of the profits.... >>
According to your analysis, those profits have come from the flippers: "the vast majority of what has already sold are to re-sell. If that's so, once again, what's the big fuss about?
<< <i>Potatohead must be affiliated with apmex.
No, but I did buy some stuff from them once, and they didn't even try to gouge me.
Maybe I did it wrong?
<< <i>Potatohead must be affiliated with apmex.
Just seems to me like an American who believes in a free economy--------------BigE
<< <i>Being that the transactions have been between willing buyers and sellers, the current prices are entirely justified. Whether or not the current values hold up over time have nothing to do with what's happening right now. Lots of new issues sell for premiums early on, but fall in price as time passes.
<< <i>
The prices the distributors set was in no way justified.....just because transactions have occurred is of no relevance as to what is justified. Plain and simple they didn't follow the mint's guidelines for distribution of these bullion coins. Once the coins are out of the distributors hands they can sell for whatever the market will bare and be completely justified.
So, possibly someone was creating an artificial sales history? Anyone know coinbuster60?
<< <i>An interesting note...Evidently, all the "sales" on ebay of these things yesterday for $1749 and many for $299 appear to have not happened at all. Upon looking at the completed auction, it says "the auction has ended" and there is no buyer. Most (maybe all) of the $1700+ sales say "the auction has ended and the seller has relisted this item or a similar one".
So, possibly someone was creating an artificial sales history? Anyone know coinbuster60? >>
Not sure what you're looking at, but I see well over 40 completed sales $1,679+ ...with unique multiple buyers on the Dutch style auctions
<< <i>Plain and simple they didn't follow the mint's guidelines for distribution of these bullion coins. >>
Based on the prices these are selling for, they are not being considered "bullion" by either buyers or sellers.
edited to add... if the mint wanted these to be bullion coins, why is the mintage limited? Maybe you should all write to the mint (and your congressmen) insisting that the mint be authorized to strike these coins to demand, for as long as there is such? Or is it easier to just complain about gouging?
No offense intended Brothers, really, I understand.
The difference between the way many see it and I see it is that I don't expect, or believe, that anybody who is selling these coins gives a damn about me, and I'm right. To expect otherwise is wishful thinking.
Am I wrong in assuming the reason folks are upset is that they wanted the coin at bullion prices and thought the MINT would protect them after they sold them to their distributors, or were they supposed to TELL them what they could sell them for?
That sounds like trouble to me, the US MINT determining fair prices for bullion.
<< <i>An interesting note...Evidently, all the "sales" on ebay of these things yesterday for $1749 and many for $299 appear to have not happened at all. Upon looking at the completed auction, it says "the auction has ended" and there is no buyer. Most (maybe all) of the $1700+ sales say "the auction has ended and the seller has relisted this item or a similar one".
So, possibly someone was creating an artificial sales history? Anyone know coinbuster60? >>
Found these 11 from one seller and there are more from other sellers:
private listing -- buyers' identities protected US $1,725.00 10 Dec-04-10 08:43:51 PST
private listing -- buyers' identities protected US $1,735.00 1 Dec-03-10 17:15:56 PST
<< <i>That sounds like trouble to me, the US MINT determining fair prices for bullion. >>
Good luck convincing people of *that*.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. If the deciding factor was the price on a rather unique coin with a low mintage then it would seem that the interest was based primarily on the ability to sell for a profit. I bought 2 sets and it hurt but not because I was sore at APMEX but because I was torn between how much silver bullion I could buy for the same money. I think many would argue that bullion is a store of wealth and I would agree. I'll be dissapointed if these coins fall below the 1395 originally asked but if they remain liquid at that cost I'm happy as I believe I will be enjoying the coins for a long time. >>
You're misunderstanding the issue which is the source of the outrage. If the U.S. Mint had offered these direct to the public, there would be no such issue, as there would be no opportunity for abuse. This issue arises only because of the fact of these private distribution channels. >>
Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs. >>
Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs. >>
You don't recall much complaining because THERE WAS NONE!!! For the life of me I don't understand - after the hundreds of posts explaining the exact source of many of our outrage - how you and others just don't get it and continue to post posts asking where the outrage was with other issues.
For the hundredth + time the outrage is at the flagrant abuse of the Authorized Distributor program which APMEX and others have perpetrated to make a killing.
With the '08/'07, and ALL of the other examples which others have cited, anyone who was paying attention had a fair shake to get them directly from The Mint. Those who missed the boat - like myself (was out of town/w no computer) paid the premium w/ absolutely no hard feelings. It was a fair process. I missed the boat. That's the way it is.
As has been discussed and detailed ad nauseam earlier in this thread, it is the abuse of the program by the Auth. Dist. which has so many of us fuming and counting down the minutes until we can call The Mint's legal dept. and others.
Did you even read the previous posts explaining all of this prior to posting?? It's really easy to understand. Your '08/'07 example has NOTHING to do with this current situation. >>
Personally, I don't give a rat's ass about the coins or the pricing as I have no interest in these. I'm just a chit stirrer and I fully understand the source of the disgruntlement. I get the feeling that some here feel that only the public is entitled to profit at the mint's expense. I didn't hear any complaining when others here charged exorbitant prices for stuff they got cheap from the mint. Look on the bright side, maybe the mint will rethink its policy on bullion.
<< <i>You can't compare Australian coins to US. I had a Canadian gold coin with a mintage of 3000 that I could only get a little over melt for, if it was US would have brought moon money. Many examples of this, just go over to the darkside and see how much action there is over there----------BigE >>
No question. I have a few Canadian gold IMAX sharks. They are a commerative issue w/a sub 300 montage. They barely command much over spot.
<< <i>You can't compare Australian coins to US. I had a Canadian gold coin with a mintage of 3000 that I could only get a little over melt for, if it was US would have brought moon money. Many examples of this, just go over to the darkside and see how much action there is over there----------BigE >>
Lots of low mintage US bullion coins sell for barely over spot too, spouse, plats etc.... It's the series popularity not the mintage. The Lunars are very popular and well established and the smaller sizes can sell for many times spot that's why I used it in my example. But you are right and it's true, an exact comparison can't be made. Also I realize this is the first big bullion the US mint has produced so yes it very well could be crazy popular and in high demand in the future. Like I said time will tell, but big bullion does not have a very good track record for selling much over spot regardless of the mintage or country of origin.
<< <i>FYI, my search query is "America the Beautiful silver -quarter*", then completed auctions >>
I'm talking about this link
Link to auctions ended that were relisted
They say "This listing has ended. The seller has relisted this item or one like this. "
After reading these 400+ posts I finally understand the outrage and I think justified.
1. These distributors get an amazing discount on the bullion, The mint sells these to them almost at cost.
2. They are responsible to make available to retailers and the public at a fair price because in affect the are an arm of the US Mint.
3. They themselves are not the "retailers" but Distributors of the Mint.
4. They purchased these at about $800 per set and I think $1000 per set would be more than fair mark up as distributors.
($200 per set x 3,000 sets $600,000 to distribute these is more than reasonable, because they are distributors and not retailers.)
I too hope the Mint 'Spanks' each distributor that took advantage of these.
Earlier post asked "What should Apmex have done?"
Put the 3,000 up for sale at $1000 per set (very tidy profit) and limit to 1 set per person. As they supposedly did: notify there "Alerts" requests first.
A little older after writing this.
Joe
<< <i>...
Earlier post asked "What should Apmex have done?"
Put the 3,000 up for sale at $1000 per set (very tidy profit) and limit to 1 set per person. As they supposedly did: notify there "Alerts" requests first.
... >>
That assumes they have a process or mechanism already in place for imposing limits. I doubt that they do. They would have to do the same heavy-handed work the Mint does when they impose household limits.
<< <i>...
edited to add... if the mint wanted these to be bullion coins, why is the mintage limited? Maybe you should all write to the mint (and your congressmen) insisting that the mint be authorized to strike these coins to demand, for as long as there is such? Or is it easier to just complain about gouging? >>
The mintage is limited because the Mint ran out of time. The coins must be minted and, in the case of the bullion coins, distributed before the end of the year. Production snafus and the complexities of minting these things for the very first time caused the shortened schedule.
<< <i>They would have to do the same heavy-handed work the Mint does when they impose household limits. >>
No kidding. I've been here long enough to remember the posts about how people were working on getting around the mint's limits when a popular new item is released.
<< <i>The mintage is limited because the Mint ran out of time. The coins must be minted and, in the case of the bullion coins, sold before the end of the year. Production snafus and the complexities of minting these things for the very first time caused the shortened schedule. >>
The fact there aren't enough coins to go around is not the distributor's fault. If the mint can't get their act together, the blame falls there. Clearly, these coins are not currently being considered as bullion by buyers, so why should sellers act otherwise?
Gee, I dunno. Maybe because the law authorizing these coins and their distributor agreement mandates it?
The outrage is not because the Mint didn't have their act together. The outrage is because the distributors are raping the public in violation of their agreements.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i> The outrage is not because the Mint didn't have their act together. The outrage is because the distributors are raping the public in violation of their agreements. >>
Let us face it.....the PUBLIC (mostly you and I) are not going to be in on the PRIMARY offering of this deal.....Why can't everyone seem to understand this???? Again I will use my IPO analogy....the public does not get first crack at this....PRIMARY AND SECONDARY dealers do and we pick up the scraps....
Nobody wrote 300+ posts when GM was priced 2 weeks ago....and the pricing was increased 3x????? if you wanted it at the number you bought it....if not pass....NO AGREEMENTS were violated....personally i just think that everyone here is disappointed that there will be no ridiculous $500 flip in it to those unsuspecting people on ebay....
collect it if you like it or not...
jmho
gyros
ps i am not a dealer....nor a flipper....just a collector (and yes i bought 2 at the $1395 price....is it a good decision???? we'll see....said the wise old lady in Aliquippa PA...
<< <i>The fact there aren't enough coins to go around is not the distributor's fault. If the mint can't get their act together, the blame falls there. Clearly, these coins are not currently being considered as bullion by buyers, so why should sellers act otherwise? >>
This is stated under section II in the PROCEDURES TO QUALIFY FOR BULK PURCHASE OF SILVER BULLION COINS
"The United States Mint is interested in ensuring that the coins minted and issued under its American Eagle and America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coin Programs are distributed effectively and efficiently and in a manner that ensures that the bullion coins are competitive with bullion products produced by other international mints. To accomplish this goal, the United States Mint seeks to utilize private sector distribution channels that ensure that the coins are:
A. As widely available to the public as possible;
B. Bought and sold at prices/premiums that are in line with other similar silver bullion coin products in the marketplace; and
C. Bought and sold in a manner that ensures relatively low transaction costs.
Due in part to the commodity-like, investment nature of these coins characterized by constantly fluctuating precious metal prices, the United States Mint has determined that the most effective and efficient means for bullion coin distribution is through the use of the well-established silver bullion coin distribution network in the private sector. This network consists of hundreds of coin and precious metals dealers, participating banks, brokerage companies and other financial intermediaries."
Part of the Mint Distributor agreement?
Text
Maintain buy/sell premiums for the United States Mint silver bullion coins with as narrow a spread between buy and sell prices as prudent business judgment/market conditions permits. These premiums are to be competitive with those charged for other bullion coins, considering prevailing market conditions.
II.
PURPOSE
The United States Mint is interested in ensuring that the coins minted and issued under its American Eagle and America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coin Programs are distributed effectively and efficiently and in a manner that ensures that the bullion coins are competitive with bullion products produced by other international mints. To accomplish this goal, the United States Mint seeks to utilize private sector distribution channels that ensure that the coins are:
A. As widely available to the public as possible;
B. Bought and sold at prices/premiums that are in line with other similar silver bullion coin products in the marketplace; and
C. Bought and sold in a manner that ensures relatively low transaction costs.
Due in part to the commodity-like, investment nature of these coins characterized by constantly fluctuating precious metal prices, the United States Mint has determined that the most effective and efficient means for bullion coin distribution is through the use of the well-established silver bullion coin distribution network in the private sector. This network consists of hundreds of coin and precious metals dealers, participating banks, brokerage companies and other financial intermediaries.
<< <i>Interesting the spirit intended for distributors.
considering prevailing market conditions.
>>
APMEX stated that they had quantity BID at $1500 from a NUMBER of Dealers.....so they made a market....$1395 BID .....don't blame APMEX .....blame the dealers who were paying $1500....
<< <i>Smokincoin beat me to it
I borrowed it from Batman23.
Nobody wrote 300+ posts when GM was priced 2 weeks ago....and the pricing was increased 3x????? if you wanted it at the number you bought it....if not pass....NO AGREEMENTS were violated....personally i just think that everyone here is disappointed that there will be no ridiculous $500 flip in it to those unsuspecting people on ebay....
collect it if you like it or not...
Gyro, everyone can't understand this because it is not what the authorizing legislation requires and it is not what the distributor requirement specifies. Why can't you understand that? I know that you need to justify your purchase, but those who had the same "opportunity" as you also made a judgement and chose not to buy.
Frankly, I think you should be refunded about $611.25, which is the difference between the market price for bullion coins and the price-gouge number you paid. This deal isn't governed by the IPO regulations. The rules here were clearly established by legislation and by contract law. This has nothing to do with the flip potential on ebay. This has to do with the rules.
It does seem as if the rules aren't rules anymore for those who chose to ignore them. When I decide to ignore a few rules myself, will you think poorly of me?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Interesting the spirit intended for distributors.
Part of the Mint Distributor agreement?
Text
Maintain buy/sell premiums for the United States Mint silver bullion coins with as narrow a spread between buy and sell prices as prudent business judgment/market conditions permits. These premiums are to be competitive with those charged for other bullion coins, considering prevailing market conditions.
II.
PURPOSE
The United States Mint is interested in ensuring that the coins minted and issued under its American Eagle and America the Beautiful Silver Bullion Coin Programs are distributed effectively and efficiently and in a manner that ensures that the bullion coins are competitive with bullion products produced by other international mints. To accomplish this goal, the United States Mint seeks to utilize private sector distribution channels that ensure that the coins are:
A. As widely available to the public as possible;
B. Bought and sold at prices/premiums that are in line with other similar silver bullion coin products in the marketplace; and
C. Bought and sold in a manner that ensures relatively low transaction costs.
Due in part to the commodity-like, investment nature of these coins characterized by constantly fluctuating precious metal prices, the United States Mint has determined that the most effective and efficient means for bullion coin distribution is through the use of the well-established silver bullion coin distribution network in the private sector. This network consists of hundreds of coin and precious metals dealers, participating banks, brokerage companies and other financial intermediaries. >>
I certainly hope that The Mint's legal dept. is absolutely FLOODED with calls on this massive APMEX (and likely others) contract violations tomorrow. GIVE 'EM HELL!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>Interesting the spirit intended for distributors.
considering prevailing market conditions.
>>
APMEX stated that they had quantity BID at $1500 from a NUMBER of Dealers.....so they made a market....$1395 BID .....don't blame APMEX .....blame the dealers who were paying $1500.... >>
This is total B.S. As has been posted numerous times, thier job and obligations are clearly spelled out in the Auth. Dist. agreement.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Interesting the spirit intended for distributors.
considering prevailing market conditions.
>>
APMEX stated that they had quantity BID at $1500 from a NUMBER of Dealers.....so they made a market....$1395 BID .....don't blame APMEX .....blame the dealers who were paying $1500.... >>
This is total B.S. As has been posted numerous times, thier job and obligations are clearly spelled out in the Auth. Dist. agreement. >>
This is APMEX. and the others reply , for ripping off the public" The only way to respond is not to buy and complain to the Mint tomorrow,