<< <i>Batman23, good job on finding the qualifications for the bulk purchasers. It appears to me that probably all of the distributors will be in violation of these terms. What about the distributors who have stated they are submitting ALL of their allotment for grading? Looks to me that in effect they have not offered any at all to the public (until obviously they can soak even more cash out of puchasers later). >>
Actually, I have to note that the credit of finding the qualifications goes to "Raufus" who posted the webaddress last night back on page 8.
<< <i>I think the market value of these coins will be heavily tied to the numismatic versions when they become available. My guess is the Mint will sell the numismatic versions for about $225, assuming the price of silver stays where it is. That will cause the bullion versions to drop in price. However, the market price of the numismatic versions will climb steeply from there, and the bullion version will follow close behind. So I think the time to buy the bullion version might be right after the mint announces the pricing for the numismatic version. >>
That could very well happen.
I think the numismatic release will certainly have an effect on the bullion ones once released.
Also, The mint will run their pricing through normal pricing structures and profit margins. They aren't going to "get in on this" like some people think. The numismatic versions will likely go 1 per household per design and be in the low $200 price range.
Those passing on the bullion will likely move to the numismatic version.
Should it go this way, the bullion flippers who got in over $1000/set will suffer. >>
(Thanks Batman23.)
IMHO, the only hope for flippers who got in at the absurd, APMEX rip-off price will be to flip just after taking delivery, prior to the release of the numismatic versions. Due to the likely flood of flippers, making much won't likely be easy.
I also believe, as I've said, that this gouging by the Auth. Distributors will generate enough outcry that future, limited issue bullion products, will be handled differently.
Congrats to APMEX for their massive killing made possible by totally abusing their status as an Auth. Dist. I believe that, in the end, they will be the losers. I think that - as others have said - they killed the golden Auth. Dist. status goose as well as, to a large degree, their reputation.
I came here to try and offer some insight why we came out with the prices we did. Then I asked for what you would do. All I got was more complaints... Should I have just sold these wholesale at $1,500 and not offered any to our customers? Should I have sold an item which has a mintage of 33,000 for $0.29 cents over mint cost (Comparing them to the 30,000,000 SAE's the mint will be making this year.) Then the greedy trolls out there would have come in and bought them all us and sold them on ebay for $1,700 each... (Anyone who bought them would be out of luck unless you were really quick on the trigger...) Should I have sold 1,000 at a premium less than wholesale to our customers? ($1,395 vs. $1,500 or more?) Give me some options vs. just more complaints... We asked our self all the questions you are posing here and we came up with our solution. We knew we would be damned if we did sell at this price and damned if we didn't sell any. How do you win here? In the end, we have to make a market here. We have sold 800 in 19 hours... Seems to me if we sold them for less greedy folks would have come in and ordered hundreds of sets and they would be out in minutes or hours. The fact is, we sold to dealers at this same level... If we offered them for more money, we would have looked worse. So, I will go back to my original question.
Put YOURSELF in our shoes and give me some feedback on how YOU would have handled it.
EASY - Now that all sales are final, Just give a $250 credit to those that purchased your highly over-inflated product.
Besides the comments of disgust and complaint posted here about the one retailer, oh I mean wholesaler, of the pucks for a gouging profit.....
there are many posts in other forums as well. I normally only view this forum, but I did look at the others this time around concerning this topic
like I said earlier, it doesnt take much to voice your discontent to the Dept of the Treasury/US Mint Legal Compliance Officer - let's see if they think first tier wholesalers pricing is out of line or not ---with their agreement
<< <i>APMEX sold 1000 sets at $1395 per set. The cost for the buyer is of course higher when you add the credit card surcharge and the shipping/handling. This brought in $1,395,000 within 24 hours. Subtract the $800/set cost and they have about $595,000 gross profit. I remind you that this is only the first 1000. It sounds like the additional 2000 will be sold at a higher price. We are now talking about a Two Million Dollar gross profit given to APMEX by the government. Or more realistically APMEX took advantage of the government's distribution program and made a killing. >>
The important number is the gross margin number on their income statement. On this first 1000 sold, percentage-wise, that's a 42.6% gross margin on sales. Giving them a reasonable 10% gross profit, that would mean their operating costs associated with this sale were a whopping 32.6%. I sincerely doubt that, as all they're doing is turning around and flipping this product the minute it gets into their hands. Are they price-gouging, taking advantage of the privileged position the U.S. Mint graciously put them in? You better believe it. And, as you say, with 2000 left, it's only likely to get worse, if unabated.
EDIT: Understand, if the government had also offered direct to the public, this would be a non-issue...
This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. If the deciding factor was the price on a rather unique coin with a low mintage then it would seem that the interest was based primarily on the ability to sell for a profit. I bought 2 sets and it hurt but not because I was sore at APMEX but because I was torn between how much silver bullion I could buy for the same money. I think many would argue that bullion is a store of wealth and I would agree. I'll be dissapointed if these coins fall below the 1395 originally asked but if they remain liquid at that cost I'm happy as I believe I will be enjoying the coins for a long time.
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. >>
I wouldn't have used the word "everybody"! I wanted one (single) coin from these (5) 2010 issues. Regardless of my "want", the price you paid for 2 (5) coin sets at one of the authorized dealers was ridiculous!
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. If the deciding factor was the price on a rather unique coin with a low mintage then it would seem that the interest was based primarily on the ability to sell for a profit. I bought 2 sets and it hurt but not because I was sore at APMEX but because I was torn between how much silver bullion I could buy for the same money. I think many would argue that bullion is a store of wealth and I would agree. I'll be dissapointed if these coins fall below the 1395 originally asked but if they remain liquid at that cost I'm happy as I believe I will be enjoying the coins for a long time. >>
I don't think it has turned to sour grapes, some of us have been aboard this train since the beginning, and my bet most for keeping a set but when you have the first company selling these for 1000 a set and than the second for 1395.00 just BECAUSE they saw what the others ended up selling for is kinda crazy to all of us that actually believe a price around 1000 is more in line. I am not knocking anyone who paid that amount, whether your flipping or keeping. Plus i am still hoping that this next week will show the rest of the rainbow than will all know........
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. If the deciding factor was the price on a rather unique coin with a low mintage then it would seem that the interest was based primarily on the ability to sell for a profit. I bought 2 sets and it hurt but not because I was sore at APMEX but because I was torn between how much silver bullion I could buy for the same money. I think many would argue that bullion is a store of wealth and I would agree. I'll be dissapointed if these coins fall below the 1395 originally asked but if they remain liquid at that cost I'm happy as I believe I will be enjoying the coins for a long time. >>
You're misunderstanding the issue which is the source of the outrage. If the U.S. Mint had offered these direct to the public, there would be no such issue, as there would be no opportunity for abuse. This issue arises only because of the fact of these private distribution channels.
<< <i>Besides the comments of disgust and complaint posted here about the one retailer, oh I mean wholesaler, of the pucks for a gouging profit.....
there are many posts in other forums as well. I normally only view this forum, but I did look at the others this time around concerning this topic
like I said earlier, it doesnt take much to voice your discontent to the Dept of the Treasury/US Mint Legal Compliance Officer - let's see if they think first tier wholesalers pricing is out of line or not ---with their agreement >>
Wholesaler pricing may be out of line with the agreement, but apparently not with with the market value which has been created. It seems like the mint is the one that fostered this mess by allowing exclusive access to limited production coins. Are they in the business of creating windfall profit situations for the nondealers only?
Here is the deal guys. I think APMEX only sold the first 1000 so they could get the other 2k graded and sell them accordingly. I think the first 1000 were really what they thought was a reasonable price. When they get the others graded, they no longer have to sell them at "bullion" prices because they added numismatic value. It's a way to get out of their obligation to sell them at those price the US mint intended.
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. If the deciding factor was the price on a rather unique coin with a low mintage then it would seem that the interest was based primarily on the ability to sell for a profit. I bought 2 sets and it hurt but not because I was sore at APMEX but because I was torn between how much silver bullion I could buy for the same money. I think many would argue that bullion is a store of wealth and I would agree. I'll be dissapointed if these coins fall below the 1395 originally asked but if they remain liquid at that cost I'm happy as I believe I will be enjoying the coins for a long time. >>
You're misunderstanding the issue which is the source of the outrage. If the U.S. Mint had offered these direct to the public, there would be no such issue, as there would be no opportunity for abuse. This issue arises only because of the fact of these private distribution channels. >>
Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs.
Is APMEX required by their agreement with the Mint to maintain a buy price on the Mint product they sell? I know that they post a buy price on silver eagles, but that could just be normal market making.
If so, why have they not posted a buy price on the hockey puck sets, since they have already posted a sell price?
Just curious.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs. >>
Boy, were those the days! A $100 ASE Set became a windfall of upwards of $800 and the error was a gift from the Mint at $25 that became a $500 anamoly.
The thing is, who could nave predicted the outcome? When asked on this forum, I don't recall anyone guessing these would come out of the gate at $280 to over $300 per coin.
These truly belong in the "what is the realm of crazy possibilities" category when it comes to speculative pressure.
Has anyone heard any rumors of what APMEX and others will be pricing the slabbed versions at once the real mania begins??
<< <i>Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs. >>
I'd think a fair reply to that would be that we're not talking about "many" but about a privileged few who were put in this position courtesy of the U.S. Mint.
I dunno, but if they sold out that quickly maybe they underpriced them.
People who don't understand the appeal of collectibles typically think the collectors are foolish. For example, non-collectors think a 09s VDB is worth 1 cent....
<< <i>From the other thread, the list of distributors are:
Does it mean that some the distributors will also sell it? Have anyone contact any of those directly?
1. A-Mark Precious Metals, Los Angeles - Silver, Gold, Platinum 2. Dillon Guage Inc. Dallas - Silver Only 3. Jack Hunt Coin Brokers, Buffalo NY - Silver Only 4. Prudential Securities Inc. New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum 5. The Gold Center, Springfield, Ill - Silver Only 6. Coin's 'N Things, Bridgewater MASS - Silver Only 7. Fidelitrade Inc, Wilmington Del - Silver Only 8. MTB, New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum 9. SCB/Mocatta Bullion, New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum 10. Commerzbank International, Luxembourg/New York City - Silver and Gold 11. Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt Germany - Silver, Gold Only 12. Union Bank of Switzerland, Zurich - Silver, Gold, Platinum 13. Hang Seng Bank, Hong Kong - Silver, Gold Only 14. Tinaka Kikinzoku Kogyo K.K., Tokyo - Gold, Platinum Only >>
How many of the sets allocated to the last five distributors on this list will be available to the U.S. market? And how much of an impact will that have on the value of the sets which remain available to the U. S. market?
<< <i>From the other thread, the list of distributors are:
Does it mean that some the distributors will also sell it? Have anyone contact any of those directly?
1. A-Mark Precious Metals, Los Angeles - Silver, Gold, Platinum 2. Dillon Guage Inc. Dallas - Silver Only 3. Jack Hunt Coin Brokers, Buffalo NY - Silver Only 4. Prudential Securities Inc. New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum 5. The Gold Center, Springfield, Ill - Silver Only 6. Coin's 'N Things, Bridgewater MASS - Silver Only 7. Fidelitrade Inc, Wilmington Del - Silver Only 8. MTB, New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum 9. SCB/Mocatta Bullion, New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum 10. Commerzbank International, Luxembourg/New York City - Silver and Gold 11. Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt Germany - Silver, Gold Only 12. Union Bank of Switzerland, Zurich - Silver, Gold, Platinum 13. Hang Seng Bank, Hong Kong - Silver, Gold Only 14. Tinaka Kikinzoku Kogyo K.K., Tokyo - Gold, Platinum Only >>
How many of the sets allocated to the last five distributors on this list will be available to the U.S. market? And how much of an impact will that have on the value of the sets which remain available to the U. S. market? >>
Previously posted was APMEX was added to the list later to make a total of 15 distributors. Also that 11 distributors were getting a share. I would guess that the last four (non-US) may not be getting any
<< <i>The important number is the gross margin number on their income statement. On this first 1000 sold, percentage-wise, that's a 42.6% gross margin on sales. Giving them a reasonable 10% gross profit, that would mean their operating costs associated with this sale were a whopping 32.6%. >>
Those figures are irrelevant by themselves, as the sales of this one item don't occur in a vaccuum. The company has other products for sale also, almost certainly providing different profit margins. They probably even sell some things at a loss. All of those sales (and losses) have to be taken together to come up with the company's profit margin. Cherrypicking just the sales that support the point one is trying to make is not a reasonable way to analyze the situation.
<< <i>TD, they did, I believe 1200.00-------------------------BigE >>
Thank you. I looked this morning, and could not find it. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
I understand some distributors sold them for $175 per coin ($875 per set) last Tuesday when they first came out and then they were kicking themselves because the demand was HUGE and they left $125 per coin ($625 per set) still on the table...
That is how I believe the TV company came out and sold them for $1,000 then $1,100 now for $1,500. I suspect they will go much higher as the demand for these sets are huge...
<< <i>The important number is the gross margin number on their income statement. On this first 1000 sold, percentage-wise, that's a 42.6% gross margin on sales. Giving them a reasonable 10% gross profit, that would mean their operating costs associated with this sale were a whopping 32.6%. >>
Those figures are irrelevant by themselves, as the sales of this one item don't occur in a vaccuum. The company has other products for sale also, almost certainly providing different profit margins. They probably even sell some things at a loss. All of those sales (and losses) have to be taken together to come up with the company's profit margin. Cherrypicking just the sales that support the point one is trying to make is not a reasonable way to analyze the situation. >>
Well I beg your pardon but this is just like the situation dealers are in today when they get incoming silver in the form of halves and such. You can throw away their margins on those as there's virtually no shelf-life associated with them before they go off to the refiners under contract. The same thing is going on with these, virtually flying off the shelves.
<< <i>The important number is the gross margin number on their income statement. On this first 1000 sold, percentage-wise, that's a 42.6% gross margin on sales. Giving them a reasonable 10% gross profit, that would mean their operating costs associated with this sale were a whopping 32.6%. >>
Those figures are irrelevant by themselves, as the sales of this one item don't occur in a vaccuum. The company has other products for sale also, almost certainly providing different profit margins. They probably even sell some things at a loss. All of those sales (and losses) have to be taken together to come up with the company's profit margin. Cherrypicking just the sales that support the point one is trying to make is not a reasonable way to analyze the situation. >>
Well I beg your pardon but this is just like the situation dealers are in today when they get incoming silver in the form of halves and such. You can throw away their margins on those as there's virtually no shelf-life associated with them before they go off to the refiners under contract. The same thing is going on with these, virtually flying off the shelves. >>
You have to pay rent for your space whether you flip a coin in 5 minutes or 5 weeks. If you have to borrow your funds to buy the 5 week coin, then your costs go up. Overall your business is averaged out over a year with some easy money and some harder.
<< <i>The same thing is going on with these, virtually flying off the shelves. >>
I fail to see how this invalidates the reality of the profits from a company's entire sales (not just a cherrypicked selection) being the measuring factor for a company's success (or lack thereof).
edited to add... if these things are really "flying off the shelves", that would seem to indicate the price being asked was not unreasonable, wouldn't it?
Companies that cheap sold these may be running themselves out of business by letting their competitors get such a once in many moons large capital influx--------BigE
<< <i>The important number is the gross margin number on their income statement. On this first 1000 sold, percentage-wise, that's a 42.6% gross margin on sales. Giving them a reasonable 10% gross profit, that would mean their operating costs associated with this sale were a whopping 32.6%. >>
Those figures are irrelevant by themselves, as the sales of this one item don't occur in a vaccuum. The company has other products for sale also, almost certainly providing different profit margins. They probably even sell some things at a loss. All of those sales (and losses) have to be taken together to come up with the company's profit margin. Cherrypicking just the sales that support the point one is trying to make is not a reasonable way to analyze the situation. >>
Well I beg your pardon but this is just like the situation dealers are in today when they get incoming silver in the form of halves and such. You can throw away their margins on those as there's virtually no shelf-life associated with them before they go off to the refiners under contract. The same thing is going on with these, virtually flying off the shelves. >>
You have to pay rent for your space whether you flip a coin in 5 minutes or 5 weeks. If you have to borrow your funds to buy the 5 week coin, then your costs go up. Overall your business is averaged out over a year with some easy money and some harder. >>
Principles of Accounting 101 has it that their operating expenses on these goods are incremental due to the immediate turnover they're getting on them. These go "off book," as the expression goes, for that very reason, alone.
"Then the greedy trolls out there would have come in and bought them all us and sold them on ebay for $1,700 each..."
They were scared to death that a Retailer would buy from them, a Distributor, and sell it for more.
It seems apmex is confused between Distributor and Retailer.
The Mint is the ultimate Distributor and as such, they charged pretty much $2 over spot. The Mint could have gone $5 or $10, but as a distributor, they didn't.
These Distributors seem to be worried that if they sell for less, they will not maximize their profits or leave money on the table.
The goal of the middle man is to take his cut and pass the puck. Every level takes $5 per oz as profit and passes it along. It seems the Distributors are the greedy trolls, to use APMEX's words, and took all the profit and left none on the table.
$45 an oz would have given them enough profit and left enough on the table for everyone else.
As for their claim that they sold out, well yea, you're a monopoly, people wanted them, where else could they go.
you fail to understand what type of business they have and what type of purchase contract they have agreed to - - - -
the business is a high volume bullion business working on small margins.......they most likely do well due to volume of trades, therefore their operating expenses are most likely very low - lean and mean.
this offering is clearly "gravy" because what has happened is a direct purchaser (that is one of 11 in this case) who is supposed to price this item comparable to other "bullion" products. Not like a numismatic product. Not due to rarity or availability. Like a bullion product.
Therefore, your comments about demand in terms of validating their price, etc are not applicable here.
The comments about only 1000 of 3000 sets only being available in this fashion (raw) and the others being graded seems to be rumor at this point. Maybe true. Who knows.
But if it is true, there is another problem. The direct wholesaler should have to make all 3000 available at the reasonable price. After which, they should be free to buy and sell in the secondary market for whatever they wish.
<< <i>The same thing is going on with these, virtually flying off the shelves. >>
I fail to see how this invalidates the reality of the profits from a company's entire sales (not just a cherrypicked selection) being the measuring factor for a company's success (or lack thereof).
edited to add... if these things are really "flying off the shelves", that would seem to indicate the price being asked was not unreasonable, wouldn't it? >>
You're analyzing this wrong. Analyze it from the supply-side under an oligopoly and from the demand-side under an inelastic niche-market demand.
EDIT: In other words, there's very little "free-market" about this...
<< <i>EDIT: In other words, there's very little "free-market" about this... >>
Of course the initial supply is not a free market. Is anything the government does a free market? Once APMEX listed the coins for sale though, I don't see how you could call it anything other than free market- APMEX set a price, and people bought (or not) as they saw fit.
<< <i>the business is a high volume bullion business working on small margins.......they most likely do well due to volume of trades, therefore their operating expenses are most likely very low - lean and mean. >>
"Most likely"? Solid analysis- sounds good to me.
How foolish of me to have even suggested the possibility of anything else.
Ah. The offer was in a forum, not on the website. Got ya! Thx. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
you fail to understand what type of business they have and what type of purchase contract they have agreed to - - - -
the business is a high volume bullion business working on small margins.......they most likely do well due to volume of trades, therefore their operating expenses are most likely very low - lean and mean.
this offering is clearly "gravy" because what has happened is a direct purchaser (that is one of 11 in this case) who is supposed to price this item comparable to other "bullion" products. Not like a numismatic product. Not due to rarity or availability. Like a bullion product.
Therefore, your comments about demand in terms of validating their price, etc are not applicable here.
The comments about only 1000 of 3000 sets only being available in this fashion (raw) and the others being graded seems to be rumor at this point. Maybe true. Who knows.
But if it is true, there is another problem. The direct wholesaler should have to make all 3000 available at the reasonable price. After which, they should be free to buy and sell in the secondary market for whatever they wish. >>
Do the distributors have them in hand yet? Could the mint refuse to deliver these if there is a violation of the terms of the contract. I guess someone could go to court and get an injunction to halt the sales.
while you think APMEX did something drastically wrong, i disagree...
here is why....
CAPITAL RESERVES....like Gordon Gekko said..."if you don't have them you can't pee in the tall weeds with the big DOGS"...hey if anyone wants to put up the cash (what a couple million) go ahead and you can be a USM authorized distributor...so you can market and sell bullion at YOUR price.....
you want to argue with that concept???? ok...try the next HOT out of the BOX stock offering....FACEBOOK, ZYGNA, whatever the next one is....well these type of sales are regulated as well by the SEC, with rule books similar to the USM rules......OK LETS SEE HOW MANY OF THESE SHARES ANYONE IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC GETS AT THE OFFERING PRICE.....hmm....ZERO or LESS THAN ZERO...3 or 4 Primary Brokers (Goldman, MStanley, JPMorgan) will make MILLIONS...
love it or hate it this is the world we live in.....
you want to buy a set....$1395 is what they were offered at....you don't want to buy one ...DON'T.... plain and simple...
Comments
<< <i>Batman23, good job on finding the qualifications for the bulk purchasers. It appears to me that probably all of the distributors will be in violation of these terms. What about the distributors who have stated they are submitting ALL of their allotment for grading? Looks to me that in effect they have not offered any at all to the public (until obviously they can soak even more cash out of puchasers later). >>
Actually, I have to note that the credit of finding the qualifications goes to "Raufus" who posted the webaddress last night back on page 8.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think the market value of these coins will be heavily tied to the numismatic versions when they become available. My guess is the Mint will sell the numismatic versions for about $225, assuming the price of silver stays where it is. That will cause the bullion versions to drop in price. However, the market price of the numismatic versions will climb steeply from there, and the bullion version will follow close behind. So I think the time to buy the bullion version might be right after the mint announces the pricing for the numismatic version. >>
That could very well happen.
I think the numismatic release will certainly have an effect on the bullion ones once released.
Also, The mint will run their pricing through normal pricing structures and profit margins. They aren't going to "get in on this" like some people think. The numismatic versions will likely go 1 per household per design and be in the low $200 price range.
Those passing on the bullion will likely move to the numismatic version.
Should it go this way, the bullion flippers who got in over $1000/set will suffer. >>
(Thanks Batman23.)
IMHO, the only hope for flippers who got in at the absurd, APMEX rip-off price will be to flip just after taking delivery, prior to the release of the numismatic versions. Due to the likely flood of flippers, making much won't likely be easy.
I also believe, as I've said, that this gouging by the Auth. Distributors will generate enough outcry that future, limited issue bullion products, will be handled differently.
Congrats to APMEX for their massive killing made possible by totally abusing their status as an Auth. Dist. I believe that, in the end, they will be the losers. I think that - as others have said - they killed the golden Auth. Dist. status goose as well as, to a large degree, their reputation.
Forum linky
Put YOURSELF in our shoes and give me some feedback on how YOU would have handled it.
EASY - Now that all sales are final, Just give a $250 credit to those that purchased your highly over-inflated product.
there are many posts in other forums as well. I normally only view this forum, but I did look at the others this time around concerning this topic
like I said earlier, it doesnt take much to voice your discontent to the Dept of the Treasury/US Mint Legal Compliance Officer - let's see if they think first tier wholesalers pricing is out of line or not ---with their agreement
How can you whine at Apmex when 11 sets sold at over $300 more WHILE THEY WERE STILL ON SALE AT APMEX!
1,000 sets sold at APMEX at $1,395 per set.
Over 17 sets sold on eBay at over $1,695!
Completed eBay Sales
Over 15 sets for sale on eBay starting at $1,679.99
eBay Listings for ATB 5 coin 5 oz sets
<< <i>APMEX sold 1000 sets at $1395 per set. The cost for the buyer is of course higher when you add the credit card surcharge and the shipping/handling. This brought in $1,395,000 within 24 hours. Subtract the $800/set cost and they have about $595,000 gross profit. I remind you that this is only the first 1000. It sounds like the additional 2000 will be sold at a higher price. We are now talking about a Two Million Dollar gross profit given to APMEX by the government. Or more realistically APMEX took advantage of the government's distribution program and made a killing. >>
The important number is the gross margin number on their income statement. On this first 1000 sold, percentage-wise, that's a 42.6% gross margin on sales. Giving them a reasonable 10% gross profit, that would mean their operating costs associated with this sale were a whopping 32.6%. I sincerely doubt that, as all they're doing is turning around and flipping this product the minute it gets into their hands. Are they price-gouging, taking advantage of the privileged position the U.S. Mint graciously put them in? You better believe it. And, as you say, with 2000 left, it's only likely to get worse, if unabated.
EDIT: Understand, if the government had also offered direct to the public, this would be a non-issue...
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. >>
I wouldn't have used the word "everybody"! I wanted one (single) coin from these (5) 2010 issues. Regardless of my "want", the price you paid for 2 (5) coin sets at one of the authorized dealers was ridiculous!
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. If the deciding factor was the price on a rather unique coin with a low mintage then it would seem that the interest was based primarily on the ability to sell for a profit. I bought 2 sets and it hurt but not because I was sore at APMEX but because I was torn between how much silver bullion I could buy for the same money. I think many would argue that bullion is a store of wealth and I would agree. I'll be dissapointed if these coins fall below the 1395 originally asked but if they remain liquid at that cost I'm happy as I believe I will be enjoying the coins for a long time. >>
I don't think it has turned to sour grapes, some of us have been aboard this train since the beginning, and my bet most for keeping a set but when you have the first company selling these for 1000 a set and than the second for 1395.00 just BECAUSE they saw what the others ended up selling for is kinda crazy to all of us that actually believe a price around 1000 is more in line. I am not knocking anyone who paid that amount, whether your flipping or keeping. Plus i am still hoping that this next week will show the rest of the rainbow than will all know........
I used to be famous now I just collect coins.
Link to My Registry Set.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-specialty-sets/washington-quarters-complete-variety-set-circulation-strikes-1932-1964/publishedset/78469
Varieties Are The Spice Of LIFE and Thanks to Those who teach us what to search For.
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. If the deciding factor was the price on a rather unique coin with a low mintage then it would seem that the interest was based primarily on the ability to sell for a profit. I bought 2 sets and it hurt but not because I was sore at APMEX but because I was torn between how much silver bullion I could buy for the same money. I think many would argue that bullion is a store of wealth and I would agree. I'll be dissapointed if these coins fall below the 1395 originally asked but if they remain liquid at that cost I'm happy as I believe I will be enjoying the coins for a long time. >>
You're misunderstanding the issue which is the source of the outrage. If the U.S. Mint had offered these direct to the public, there would be no such issue, as there would be no opportunity for abuse. This issue arises only because of the fact of these private distribution channels.
<< <i>Besides the comments of disgust and complaint posted here about the one retailer, oh I mean wholesaler, of the pucks for a gouging profit.....
there are many posts in other forums as well. I normally only view this forum, but I did look at the others this time around concerning this topic
like I said earlier, it doesnt take much to voice your discontent to the Dept of the Treasury/US Mint Legal Compliance Officer - let's see if they think first tier wholesalers pricing is out of line or not ---with their agreement >>
Wholesaler pricing may be out of line with the agreement, but apparently not with with the market value which has been created. It seems like the mint is the one that fostered this mess by allowing exclusive access to limited production coins. Are they in the business of creating windfall profit situations for the nondealers only?
<< <i>What's a "vig"?
Obviously not a gambler.......
When you bet on a football game (or any event) you would bet $105 to win $100 (total returned is $205)
The $5 is the Vig
<< <i>What's a "vig"?
It's their rake-off, their juice, their commission, their profit off the sale (a.k.a, "vigorish"...look it up).
<< <i>
<< <i>This thread has turned into sour grapes. Reading through this thread it would seem that everybody that is upset about the price really didn't want the coin, they wanted a deal. If the deciding factor was the price on a rather unique coin with a low mintage then it would seem that the interest was based primarily on the ability to sell for a profit. I bought 2 sets and it hurt but not because I was sore at APMEX but because I was torn between how much silver bullion I could buy for the same money. I think many would argue that bullion is a store of wealth and I would agree. I'll be dissapointed if these coins fall below the 1395 originally asked but if they remain liquid at that cost I'm happy as I believe I will be enjoying the coins for a long time. >>
You're misunderstanding the issue which is the source of the outrage. If the U.S. Mint had offered these direct to the public, there would be no such issue, as there would be no opportunity for abuse. This issue arises only because of the fact of these private distribution channels. >>
Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs.
If so, why have they not posted a buy price on the hockey puck sets, since they have already posted a sell price?
Just curious.
Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs. >>
Boy, were those the days! A $100 ASE Set became a windfall of upwards of $800 and the error was a gift from the Mint at $25 that became a $500 anamoly.
The thing is, who could nave predicted the outcome? When asked on this forum, I don't recall anyone guessing these would come out of the gate at $280 to over $300 per coin.
These truly belong in the "what is the realm of crazy possibilities" category when it comes to speculative pressure.
Has anyone heard any rumors of what APMEX and others will be pricing the slabbed versions at once the real mania begins??
Miles
<< <i>Then again I don't recall much griping when many here were making a killing on the 3 coin ASE sets and the 2008/2007-W error ASEs. >>
I'd think a fair reply to that would be that we're not talking about "many" but about a privileged few who were put in this position courtesy of the U.S. Mint.
People who don't understand the appeal of collectibles typically think the collectors are foolish. For example, non-collectors think a 09s VDB is worth 1 cent....
<< <i>From the other thread, the list of distributors are:
Does it mean that some the distributors will also sell it? Have anyone contact any of those directly?
1. A-Mark Precious Metals, Los Angeles - Silver, Gold, Platinum
2. Dillon Guage Inc. Dallas - Silver Only
3. Jack Hunt Coin Brokers, Buffalo NY - Silver Only
4. Prudential Securities Inc. New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum
5. The Gold Center, Springfield, Ill - Silver Only
6. Coin's 'N Things, Bridgewater MASS - Silver Only
7. Fidelitrade Inc, Wilmington Del - Silver Only
8. MTB, New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum
9. SCB/Mocatta Bullion, New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum
10. Commerzbank International, Luxembourg/New York City - Silver and Gold
11. Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt Germany - Silver, Gold Only
12. Union Bank of Switzerland, Zurich - Silver, Gold, Platinum
13. Hang Seng Bank, Hong Kong - Silver, Gold Only
14. Tinaka Kikinzoku Kogyo K.K., Tokyo - Gold, Platinum Only >>
How many of the sets allocated to the last five distributors on this list will be available to the U.S. market? And how much of an impact will that have on the value of the sets which remain available to the U. S. market?
<< <i>TD, they did, I believe 1200.00-------------------------BigE >>
where is that buy price?
<< <i>
<< <i>From the other thread, the list of distributors are:
Does it mean that some the distributors will also sell it? Have anyone contact any of those directly?
1. A-Mark Precious Metals, Los Angeles - Silver, Gold, Platinum
2. Dillon Guage Inc. Dallas - Silver Only
3. Jack Hunt Coin Brokers, Buffalo NY - Silver Only
4. Prudential Securities Inc. New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum
5. The Gold Center, Springfield, Ill - Silver Only
6. Coin's 'N Things, Bridgewater MASS - Silver Only
7. Fidelitrade Inc, Wilmington Del - Silver Only
8. MTB, New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum
9. SCB/Mocatta Bullion, New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum
10. Commerzbank International, Luxembourg/New York City - Silver and Gold
11. Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt Germany - Silver, Gold Only
12. Union Bank of Switzerland, Zurich - Silver, Gold, Platinum
13. Hang Seng Bank, Hong Kong - Silver, Gold Only
14. Tinaka Kikinzoku Kogyo K.K., Tokyo - Gold, Platinum Only >>
How many of the sets allocated to the last five distributors on this list will be available to the U.S. market? And how much of an impact will that have on the value of the sets which remain available to the U. S. market? >>
Previously posted was APMEX was added to the list later to make a total of 15 distributors. Also that 11 distributors were getting a share. I would guess that the last four (non-US) may not be getting any
<< <i>The important number is the gross margin number on their income statement. On this first 1000 sold, percentage-wise, that's a 42.6% gross margin on sales. Giving them a reasonable 10% gross profit, that would mean their operating costs associated with this sale were a whopping 32.6%. >>
Those figures are irrelevant by themselves, as the sales of this one item don't occur in a vaccuum. The company has other products for sale also, almost certainly providing different profit margins. They probably even sell some things at a loss. All of those sales (and losses) have to be taken together to come up with the company's profit margin. Cherrypicking just the sales that support the point one is trying to make is not a reasonable way to analyze the situation.
<< <i>TD, they did, I believe 1200.00-------------------------BigE >>
This is also a violation of their Authorized Purchaser agreement.
buy and sell prices are supposed to be similar to similar products they sell.
a 20% spread does not cut it.
<< <i>TD, they did, I believe 1200.00-------------------------BigE >>
Thank you. I looked this morning, and could not find it.
TD
<< <i>
<< <i>TD, they did, I believe 1200.00-------------------------BigE >>
Thank you. I looked this morning, and could not find it.
TD >>
By the way, we will be happy to buy up to 1,000 sets at a $1,200 per set if there are any takers this weekend....
I understand some distributors sold them for $175 per coin ($875 per set) last Tuesday when they first came out and then they were kicking themselves because the demand was HUGE and they left $125 per coin ($625 per set) still on the table...
That is how I believe the TV company came out and sold them for $1,000 then $1,100 now for $1,500. I suspect they will go much higher as the demand for these sets are huge...
<< <i>
<< <i>The important number is the gross margin number on their income statement. On this first 1000 sold, percentage-wise, that's a 42.6% gross margin on sales. Giving them a reasonable 10% gross profit, that would mean their operating costs associated with this sale were a whopping 32.6%. >>
Those figures are irrelevant by themselves, as the sales of this one item don't occur in a vaccuum. The company has other products for sale also, almost certainly providing different profit margins. They probably even sell some things at a loss. All of those sales (and losses) have to be taken together to come up with the company's profit margin. Cherrypicking just the sales that support the point one is trying to make is not a reasonable way to analyze the situation. >>
Well I beg your pardon but this is just like the situation dealers are in today when they get incoming silver in the form of halves and such. You can throw away their margins on those as there's virtually no shelf-life associated with them before they go off to the refiners under contract. The same thing is going on with these, virtually flying off the shelves.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The important number is the gross margin number on their income statement. On this first 1000 sold, percentage-wise, that's a 42.6% gross margin on sales. Giving them a reasonable 10% gross profit, that would mean their operating costs associated with this sale were a whopping 32.6%. >>
Those figures are irrelevant by themselves, as the sales of this one item don't occur in a vaccuum. The company has other products for sale also, almost certainly providing different profit margins. They probably even sell some things at a loss. All of those sales (and losses) have to be taken together to come up with the company's profit margin. Cherrypicking just the sales that support the point one is trying to make is not a reasonable way to analyze the situation. >>
Well I beg your pardon but this is just like the situation dealers are in today when they get incoming silver in the form of halves and such. You can throw away their margins on those as there's virtually no shelf-life associated with them before they go off to the refiners under contract. The same thing is going on with these, virtually flying off the shelves. >>
You have to pay rent for your space whether you flip a coin in 5 minutes or 5 weeks. If you have to borrow your funds to buy the 5 week coin, then your costs go up. Overall your business is averaged out over a year with some easy money and some harder.
<< <i>The same thing is going on with these, virtually flying off the shelves. >>
I fail to see how this invalidates the reality of the profits from a company's entire sales (not just a cherrypicked selection) being the measuring factor for a company's success (or lack thereof).
edited to add... if these things are really "flying off the shelves", that would seem to indicate the price being asked was not unreasonable, wouldn't it?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The important number is the gross margin number on their income statement. On this first 1000 sold, percentage-wise, that's a 42.6% gross margin on sales. Giving them a reasonable 10% gross profit, that would mean their operating costs associated with this sale were a whopping 32.6%. >>
Those figures are irrelevant by themselves, as the sales of this one item don't occur in a vaccuum. The company has other products for sale also, almost certainly providing different profit margins. They probably even sell some things at a loss. All of those sales (and losses) have to be taken together to come up with the company's profit margin. Cherrypicking just the sales that support the point one is trying to make is not a reasonable way to analyze the situation. >>
Well I beg your pardon but this is just like the situation dealers are in today when they get incoming silver in the form of halves and such. You can throw away their margins on those as there's virtually no shelf-life associated with them before they go off to the refiners under contract. The same thing is going on with these, virtually flying off the shelves. >>
You have to pay rent for your space whether you flip a coin in 5 minutes or 5 weeks. If you have to borrow your funds to buy the 5 week coin, then your costs go up. Overall your business is averaged out over a year with some easy money and some harder. >>
Principles of Accounting 101 has it that their operating expenses on these goods are incremental due to the immediate turnover they're getting on them. These go "off book," as the expression goes, for that very reason, alone.
"Then the greedy trolls out there would have come in and bought them all us and sold them on ebay for $1,700 each..."
They were scared to death that a Retailer would buy from them, a Distributor, and sell it for more.
It seems apmex is confused between Distributor and Retailer.
The Mint is the ultimate Distributor and as such, they charged pretty much $2 over spot. The Mint could have gone $5 or $10, but as a distributor, they didn't.
These Distributors seem to be worried that if they sell for less, they will not maximize their profits or leave money on the table.
The goal of the middle man is to take his cut and pass the puck. Every level takes $5 per oz as profit and passes it along. It seems the Distributors are the greedy trolls, to use APMEX's words, and took all the profit and left none on the table.
$45 an oz would have given them enough profit and left enough on the table for everyone else.
As for their claim that they sold out, well yea, you're a monopoly, people wanted them, where else could they go.
you fail to understand what type of business they have and what type of purchase contract they have agreed to - - - -
the business is a high volume bullion business working on small margins.......they most likely do well due to volume of trades, therefore their operating expenses are most likely very low - lean and mean.
this offering is clearly "gravy" because what has happened is a direct purchaser (that is one of 11 in this case) who is supposed to price this item comparable to other "bullion" products. Not like a numismatic product. Not due to rarity or availability. Like a bullion product.
Therefore, your comments about demand in terms of validating their price, etc are not applicable here.
The comments about only 1000 of 3000 sets only being available in this fashion (raw) and the others being graded seems to be rumor at this point. Maybe true. Who knows.
But if it is true, there is another problem. The direct wholesaler should have to make all 3000 available at the reasonable price. After which, they should be free to buy and sell in the secondary market for whatever they wish.
<< <i>
<< <i>The same thing is going on with these, virtually flying off the shelves. >>
I fail to see how this invalidates the reality of the profits from a company's entire sales (not just a cherrypicked selection) being the measuring factor for a company's success (or lack thereof).
edited to add... if these things are really "flying off the shelves", that would seem to indicate the price being asked was not unreasonable, wouldn't it? >>
You're analyzing this wrong. Analyze it from the supply-side under an oligopoly and from the demand-side under an inelastic niche-market demand.
EDIT: In other words, there's very little "free-market" about this...
<< <i>EDIT: In other words, there's very little "free-market" about this... >>
Of course the initial supply is not a free market. Is anything the government does a free market? Once APMEX listed the coins for sale though, I don't see how you could call it anything other than free market- APMEX set a price, and people bought (or not) as they saw fit.
<< <i>the business is a high volume bullion business working on small margins.......they most likely do well due to volume of trades, therefore their operating expenses are most likely very low - lean and mean. >>
"Most likely"? Solid analysis- sounds good to me.
How foolish of me to have even suggested the possibility of anything else.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>TD, they did, I believe 1200.00-------------------------BigE >>
Thank you. I looked this morning, and could not find it.
TD >>
By the way, we will be happy to buy up to 1,000 sets at a $1,200 per set if there are any takers this weekend.... >>
Ah. The offer was in a forum, not on the website.
Got ya!
Thx.
TD
<< <i>potato -
you fail to understand what type of business they have and what type of purchase contract they have agreed to - - - -
the business is a high volume bullion business working on small margins.......they most likely do well due to volume of trades, therefore their operating expenses are most likely very low - lean and mean.
this offering is clearly "gravy" because what has happened is a direct purchaser (that is one of 11 in this case) who is supposed to price this item comparable to other "bullion" products. Not like a numismatic product. Not due to rarity or availability. Like a bullion product.
Therefore, your comments about demand in terms of validating their price, etc are not applicable here.
The comments about only 1000 of 3000 sets only being available in this fashion (raw) and the others being graded seems to be rumor at this point. Maybe true. Who knows.
But if it is true, there is another problem. The direct wholesaler should have to make all 3000 available at the reasonable price. After which, they should be free to buy and sell in the secondary market for whatever they wish. >>
Do the distributors have them in hand yet? Could the mint refuse to deliver these if there is a violation of the terms of the contract. I guess someone could go to court and get an injunction to halt the sales.
but here are some comments to consider...
while you think APMEX did something drastically wrong, i disagree...
here is why....
CAPITAL RESERVES....like Gordon Gekko said..."if you don't have them you can't pee in the tall weeds with the big DOGS"...hey if anyone wants to put up the cash (what a couple million) go ahead and you can be a USM authorized distributor...so you can market and sell bullion at YOUR price.....
you want to argue with that concept???? ok...try the next HOT out of the BOX stock offering....FACEBOOK, ZYGNA, whatever the next one is....well these type of sales are regulated as well by the SEC, with rule books similar to the USM rules......OK LETS SEE HOW MANY OF THESE SHARES ANYONE IN THE GENERAL PUBLIC GETS AT THE OFFERING PRICE.....hmm....ZERO or LESS THAN ZERO...3 or 4 Primary Brokers (Goldman, MStanley, JPMorgan) will make MILLIONS...
love it or hate it this is the world we live in.....
you want to buy a set....$1395 is what they were offered at....you don't want to buy one ...DON'T.... plain and simple...
jmho
gyros
NO wholesaler has even ORDERED yet, much less know how many they will get nor when the mint wiill ship them.
The wholesalers do NOT know pricing, but the mint WILL sell them as silver bullion.
<< <i>Do the distributors have them in hand yet? Could the mint refuse to deliver these if there is a violation of the terms of the contract. >>
Now those are good questions.
PS: There, argue with that.