It's pretty rare these days that I can find something new for my main Mexican pattern collection. Due to a recent sale of another 1979 20 Pesos pattern at auction, this particular coin came out of the woodwork and thence to me.
There were many patterns made during this era due to currency devaluation and the resultant coinage changes, but they all are quite rare. This is the first 20P pattern that I know of that was made in the metal of eventual issue--copper-nickel--and with the intended edge design--incuse INDEPENDENCIA Y LIBERTAD, which is why it was purportedly found in a bag of regular issue coins.
It is similar to Krause KM-Pn217, but with a slightly different design. The issued coin was released in 1980 with a yet different design than this pattern.
It will go to PCGS later this year, and I will post a TrueView when obtained. But here is the raw photo and a corresponding trial already in my collection with this design.
Here's a double-header today, this time from the USA.
The Ferracute Machine Company (formerly) of Bridgeton, NJ supplied metal stamping presses to Ford Motor Company and coin presses to various governments, including the US and China. Along with the presses, Ferracute made patterns of Chinese coins to help sell their presses, with I believe, the dies cut by US Mint engravers. Ferracute China patterns are rare and highly in-demand by collectors today.
One of the Ferracute engineers, Henry Janvier, made a trip to China in the early part of the Twentieth Century and made a photographic legacy of his trip. By rail from NJ to San Francisco, then by steamship to Shanghai, then overland to the interior of China (I forgot his ultimate destination in China). He went to help install the equipment at the newly-established mint which had purchased the Ferracute presses. The documents were part of the Arthur Cox Collection and sold by Stacks Bowers in 2014.
Ferracute, like many other companies of the time, also made advertising tokens that were distributed to prospective customers and others. These have become quite popular and (recently) pricey, largely due to the Chinese connection.
Here is a Ferracute token advertising a coin press sold to the US Mint in 1892 (ex Steve Tenanbaum, though PCGS declined to add the provenance for me):
And another token where Ferracute attended the Paris International Exhibition in 1900 to display their wares. These exist in several metals and presumably were struck onsite at the expo. This one in brass:
And finally, the rarest of them all with less than a handful known, a hand-engraved, undated advertising token with a "wild west" theme (cowboy on a bucking bronco on one side and a peacock on the other):
I posted this in the Chile thread but here it is again.
I rationalized this coin fairly easily… the design of the later dated volcanos have a distinctly different globe and all dated after 1822 are pretty scare especially in high grade.
Still Thursday for a couple hours yet...
Two of the five certified Triple Overdate 1735 5/4/3 Mo MF 2 Reales:
Each is a different 5/4/3 overdate. The circumstances required to produce such a triple were not unique. Position of the 3 is to the left or to the right; three corners of the 4 poke out on each. One was crossed and the other was picked up raw at auction.
The higher grade coin appears to show a "MA" ligature in the left mintmark, like those of Lima or the FERDIN(AN)D coinage of Guatemala, but there is no apparent reason why a ligature is necessary, so more likely a slip of the die sinker's hand. The "M" assayer on the lower grade coin has a missing leg, which I assume is grease filling the die rather than a poor cut.
@TwoKopeiki said:
Here's a neat one from tonight's Heritage auction. 1 over something... Upside-down 1? Letter I from the legend? No idea, but its neat.
Found an example of this anomaly on a different die and date altogether. It will be a while until i have this coin in-hand for closer study, but will post better images when i do. I still think it's a 1 that was first punched upside-down and later filled and repunched.
@TwoKopeiki said:
Here's a neat one from tonight's Heritage auction. 1 over something... Upside-down 1? Letter I from the legend? No idea, but its neat.
Found an example of this anomaly on a different die and date altogether. It will be a while until i have this coin in-hand for closer study, but will post better images when i do. I still think it's a 1 that was first punched upside-down and later filled and repunched.
I vote 1 over the letter I (looks strange in this font without the serifs.)
Serifs on the top of I look shorter than the serifs on the bottom of the 1.
Either way fascinating variations.
@TwoKopeiki said:
Here's a neat one from tonight's Heritage auction. 1 over something... Upside-down 1? Letter I from the legend? No idea, but its neat.
Found an example of this anomaly on a different die and date altogether. It will be a while until i have this coin in-hand for closer study, but will post better images when i do. I still think it's a 1 that was first punched upside-down and later filled and repunched.
I vote 1 over the letter I (looks strange in this font without the serifs.)
Serifs on the top of I look shorter than the serifs on the bottom of the 1.
Either way fascinating variations.
I think it could be over a letter I - if - these dies were pre-produced without the last couple of digits. Otherwise i think it's unlikely that a die sinker picked up a proper "1" punch, applied it, then applied another digit, then picked up the wrong "I" punch instead of the "1" he just used to sink the first digit.
Although now that i'm looking at the 1810 closer, there does appear to be some kind of re-punching happening under the first 1, as well. (line above the base)
Its a 1901 bronze medal for Brazil designed/engraved by Frenchman Charles Pillet, the designer of the Mexican Caballito Peso.
I never knew Pillet did a medal for any Latin American country other than Mexico. (You might say Porfirio Diaz was a patron of his.) I believe its fairly scarce as I've never seen this design for sale before.
The Musée d'Orsay has the original plasters in their collection:
1980 Panama 100 Balboas. This is the uncirculated prooflike version with a mintage of 77 pcs - these were NOT released to collectors and went to the Central Bank. Bought as an ANACS 66 and then I broke it out and conserved the surfaces & the coin went 69PL at our host.
I don't know if you can see it, but even though the subject is a bit boring will note that the engraving was so fine that on blowup, it is possible to make out crazy details like the stitches in Lesseps clothing (sorry for the sorry photos):
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Very nice, and very scarce.
As I have said many times before, Santiago mint coinage, specially Carlos III minors in that condition are very scarce. Congratulations.
My own example is in much lower grade which I post here so that you can compare and appreciate the superior details of your coin.
@pruebas said:
I picked up this one in today’s Stacks Bowers sale. Not sure why it wasn’t in a major sale, but it did well nonetheless.
PCGS PR68DCAM
That is an amazing 20 pesos. I thought you already had one of those.
One of a handful of known proof 20 Pesos (2 at NGC and 1 at PCGS).
I had heard of two proof 50 Peso Centenarios, but they are not in either the PCGS or NGC census, so maybe they don’t exist.
All are new die restrikes, so minted after the dates on the coins.
I think I've seen one or two of the 50's in slabs. They were obviously not the normal coins we see, and didn't seem that old, and the depth of mirrors and contrast were nothing like the 20 you just purchased. Honestly, I had no idea the 20's existed like that. Very cool.
Edited to say I should have searched before posting. Check this out! Heritage sold this NGC PR66 in 2006.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It's a little early but I have a busy day tomorrow. Here's my most recent find.
According to documents cited in A Monetary History of Central America by Brian Stickney, these provisional coins were recalled just one month after being issued due to being of a lower silver content than the standard CAR pieces of the time. That would also help explain why my coin and most of the others I saw in the auction archives are heavily circulated.
A heritage auction listing that I read suggested a surviving population of fewer than 30 coins, so I feel really lucky just to have one. At some point I'd like to get it to a shop with an xrf machine and see if the metal composition can be verified. The book says it should be 75% silver.
It's a little early but I have a busy day tomorrow. Here's my most recent find.
According to documents cited in A Monetary History of Central America by Brian Stickney, these provisional coins were recalled just one month after being issued due to being of a lower silver content than the standard CAR pieces of the time. That would also help explain why my coin and most of the others I saw in the auction archives are heavily circulated.
A heritage auction listing that I read suggested a surviving population of fewer than 30 coins, so I feel really lucky just to have one. At some point I'd like to get it to a shop with an xrf machine and see if the metal composition can be verified. The book says it should be 75% silver.
Nice find!
Appears that are about 4 known, here it is one not mine but holed, posted only for comparison:
Edit: And to add a value this one is in the 4.5k neighborhood as-is.
@Abuelo said: @ELuis is is rare, but there are many more than 4.
Yes, I posted the number on the KM.
Here is below part of the description from HA auction in 2015 of one an AU58, do not know if that had changed since:
Note that the rarity of this issue is clearly overestimated in KM ("4 known") when a more accurate figure is less than 30 confirmed surviving specimens.
Based on the amount of times I've seen these, whichever Krause contributor conjured up that "4 known" bit was either completely clueless... or lying b/c they had a few to sell!
That said, still very tough to find... and though this piece is well circulated, it IS unholed.
Also the doubled die on the right column side on the VLTR... Is on the left pillar too...
And something in front of the face just about the mouth area...
Between 1905 and 1943, Mexico minted 20 centavos in silver
Except for 2 years:
1920
1935
The reason? Those years silver became scarce, hence expensive. Something similar happened with 10 centavos. In any event, I just upgraded my bronze 20 centavos to the ones in here. Very high grade, and very good looking. These coins are rather large, and surprisingly popular.
@FistFullOfDollars said:
Here is a low ball winner, I wanted a pedigree for my type set.
Nice wholesome coin.
There were some great coins as part of that collection, including a 1783-FM, 1804 CARLVS error, 1814/3-HJ just to name a few off the top of my head. There was also a sus 1778-FM that went unsold. I've picked up a few pieces in that sale, but all had too many hairlines for my taste that were not obvious in the catalog photos (typical Aureo) so i flipped them after getting them into PCGS plastic.
Got this 4R 1784 Mo FM - There is only one graded at NGC in a F condition, none on PCGS also for this year period of 1774-1784 silver fineness: 0.9030 and then these 4R for Charles III are broken into another years period 1785-1789 but less silver fineness: 0.8960, these do not show up raw in better condition, if any. Also if graded for example one right now a 1785 VF20 4R goes for $1.2K
Now, I have about 25+ coins that are waiting to be sent for grading, no idea if this 4R can make it there too.
Comments
Bringing this thread back to the north......
It's pretty rare these days that I can find something new for my main Mexican pattern collection. Due to a recent sale of another 1979 20 Pesos pattern at auction, this particular coin came out of the woodwork and thence to me.
There were many patterns made during this era due to currency devaluation and the resultant coinage changes, but they all are quite rare. This is the first 20P pattern that I know of that was made in the metal of eventual issue--copper-nickel--and with the intended edge design--incuse INDEPENDENCIA Y LIBERTAD, which is why it was purportedly found in a bag of regular issue coins.
It is similar to Krause KM-Pn217, but with a slightly different design. The issued coin was released in 1980 with a yet different design than this pattern.
It will go to PCGS later this year, and I will post a TrueView when obtained. But here is the raw photo and a corresponding trial already in my collection with this design.
My NEWP (still raw):
The existing trial in my collection:
Here's a double-header today, this time from the USA.
The Ferracute Machine Company (formerly) of Bridgeton, NJ supplied metal stamping presses to Ford Motor Company and coin presses to various governments, including the US and China. Along with the presses, Ferracute made patterns of Chinese coins to help sell their presses, with I believe, the dies cut by US Mint engravers. Ferracute China patterns are rare and highly in-demand by collectors today.
One of the Ferracute engineers, Henry Janvier, made a trip to China in the early part of the Twentieth Century and made a photographic legacy of his trip. By rail from NJ to San Francisco, then by steamship to Shanghai, then overland to the interior of China (I forgot his ultimate destination in China). He went to help install the equipment at the newly-established mint which had purchased the Ferracute presses. The documents were part of the Arthur Cox Collection and sold by Stacks Bowers in 2014.
Ferracute, like many other companies of the time, also made advertising tokens that were distributed to prospective customers and others. These have become quite popular and (recently) pricey, largely due to the Chinese connection.
Here is a Ferracute token advertising a coin press sold to the US Mint in 1892 (ex Steve Tenanbaum, though PCGS declined to add the provenance for me):
And another token where Ferracute attended the Paris International Exhibition in 1900 to display their wares. These exist in several metals and presumably were struck onsite at the expo. This one in brass:
And finally, the rarest of them all with less than a handful known, a hand-engraved, undated advertising token with a "wild west" theme (cowboy on a bucking bronco on one side and a peacock on the other):
@pruebas never disappoints
I posted this in the Chile thread but here it is again.
I rationalized this coin fairly easily… the design of the later dated volcanos have a distinctly different globe and all dated after 1822 are pretty scare especially in high grade.
Thanks @MrEureka for the eyes
Latin American Collection
Still Thursday for a couple hours yet...
Two of the five certified Triple Overdate 1735 5/4/3 Mo MF 2 Reales:
Each is a different 5/4/3 overdate. The circumstances required to produce such a triple were not unique. Position of the 3 is to the left or to the right; three corners of the 4 poke out on each. One was crossed and the other was picked up raw at auction.
The higher grade coin appears to show a "MA" ligature in the left mintmark, like those of Lima or the FERDIN(AN)D coinage of Guatemala, but there is no apparent reason why a ligature is necessary, so more likely a slip of the die sinker's hand. The "M" assayer on the lower grade coin has a missing leg, which I assume is grease filling the die rather than a poor cut.
Edit for clarity.
Found an example of this anomaly on a different die and date altogether. It will be a while until i have this coin in-hand for closer study, but will post better images when i do. I still think it's a 1 that was first punched upside-down and later filled and repunched.
vs the 1818
8 Reales Madness Collection
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
I vote 1 over the letter I (looks strange in this font without the serifs.)
Serifs on the top of I look shorter than the serifs on the bottom of the 1.
Either way fascinating variations.
I think it could be over a letter I - if - these dies were pre-produced without the last couple of digits. Otherwise i think it's unlikely that a die sinker picked up a proper "1" punch, applied it, then applied another digit, then picked up the wrong "I" punch instead of the "1" he just used to sink the first digit.
Although now that i'm looking at the 1810 closer, there does appear to be some kind of re-punching happening under the first 1, as well. (line above the base)
8 Reales Madness Collection
@Eddi
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Newp
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Toner Thursday anyone?
I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it - Clint Eastwood
Another
I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it - Clint Eastwood
I bought this in a recent MDC auction.
Its a 1901 bronze medal for Brazil designed/engraved by Frenchman Charles Pillet, the designer of the Mexican Caballito Peso.
I never knew Pillet did a medal for any Latin American country other than Mexico. (You might say Porfirio Diaz was a patron of his.) I believe its fairly scarce as I've never seen this design for sale before.
The Musée d'Orsay has the original plasters in their collection:
1980 Panama 100 Balboas. This is the uncirculated prooflike version with a mintage of 77 pcs - these were NOT released to collectors and went to the Central Bank. Bought as an ANACS 66 and then I broke it out and conserved the surfaces & the coin went 69PL at our host.
I don't know if you can see it, but even though the subject is a bit boring will note that the engraving was so fine that on blowup, it is possible to make out crazy details like the stitches in Lesseps clothing (sorry for the sorry photos):
Well, just Love coins, period.
Rare proof, mintage 20.
Latin American Collection
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
@SimonW
That 2R looks to be 1743 rather than 1745:
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?term=(1743+1745)+guatemala+"2+reales"&category=1-2&lot=&date_from=&date_to=&thesaurus=1&images=1&en=1&de=1&fr=1&it=1&es=1&ot=1¤cy=usd&order=1
That link gets broken from goofy characters - copy and paste or just plug the following into ACsearch:
(1743 1745) guatemala "2 reales"
Yeah, you got a good point. The more I look at them the more I’m not sure if it’s either one😬😂
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Very nice, and very scarce.
As I have said many times before, Santiago mint coinage, specially Carlos III minors in that condition are very scarce. Congratulations.
My own example is in much lower grade which I post here so that you can compare and appreciate the superior details of your coin.
A 1/2 real of the 1789 Carlos III Santiago transitional type. Quite nice as they come.
Nice is an understatement, your 1/2 real example is an nothing shy of an absolute stunner!
P.S.
Thank you for the kind comments on my real. I was very excited to share it with you. I hope more turn up over time.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
The other one CAROLUS III.
And just to compare and what it is normally avail, not mine (yet, might end up buying) CAROLUS IV:
I picked up this one in today’s Stacks Bowers sale. Not sure why it wasn’t in a major sale, but it did well nonetheless.
PCGS PR68DCAM
That is an amazing 20 pesos. I thought you already had one of those.
One of a handful of known proof 20 Pesos (2 at NGC and 1 at PCGS).
I had heard of two proof 50 Peso Centenarios, but they are not in either the PCGS or NGC census, so maybe they don’t exist.
All are new die restrikes, so minted after the dates on the coins.
@pruebas well done
I think I've seen one or two of the 50's in slabs. They were obviously not the normal coins we see, and didn't seem that old, and the depth of mirrors and contrast were nothing like the 20 you just purchased. Honestly, I had no idea the 20's existed like that. Very cool.
Edited to say I should have searched before posting. Check this out! Heritage sold this NGC PR66 in 2006.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
Love it
8 Reales Madness Collection
New Cap&Rays in 65. Don’t have the mint in my collection and the price was right. In hand looks much better than the Trueview.
Latin American Collection
Thought I'd share a few of my pick ups in my spastic foray into Mexican coinage.
1735/4 Really lovely and wholesome circ piece.
1744 Meaty and wholesome. Lots of detail and I love the Doubled pillar on the right.
1754 I actually think this is maybe a tad too high grade. I was hoping for one to match the other two I just shared and it's clearly a step above.
https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery
The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"
Nice looking @Clio if I were to collect Mexico pillars it wound be the 2R denomination. This is my current type.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
About 2R my first one - I posted this in another thread, here it is - In hand looks much better:
Great look to that one! Big fan.
https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery
The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"
Not Thursday but hey !
There are a ton of these in 64 and less not not this one.
PCGS 65 POP 3/0
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
NICE FINGERS.
PCGS 58
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
It's a little early but I have a busy day tomorrow. Here's my most recent find.
According to documents cited in A Monetary History of Central America by Brian Stickney, these provisional coins were recalled just one month after being issued due to being of a lower silver content than the standard CAR pieces of the time. That would also help explain why my coin and most of the others I saw in the auction archives are heavily circulated.
A heritage auction listing that I read suggested a surviving population of fewer than 30 coins, so I feel really lucky just to have one. At some point I'd like to get it to a shop with an xrf machine and see if the metal composition can be verified. The book says it should be 75% silver.
Nice find!
Appears that are about 4 known, here it is one not mine but holed, posted only for comparison:
Edit: And to add a value this one is in the 4.5k neighborhood as-is.
@ELuis is is rare, but there are many more than 4.
Yes, I posted the number on the KM.
Here is below part of the description from HA auction in 2015 of one an AU58, do not know if that had changed since:
Note that the rarity of this issue is clearly overestimated in KM ("4 known") when a more accurate figure is less than 30 confirmed surviving specimens.
Based on the amount of times I've seen these, whichever Krause contributor conjured up that "4 known" bit was either completely clueless... or lying b/c they had a few to sell!
That said, still very tough to find... and though this piece is well circulated, it IS unholed.
A heavily worn yet very scarce coin that perhaps only a collector could love.
Charles III Album
Charles III Portrait Set
Charles IV Album
Charles IV Portrait Set
That's an entirely respectable quality for that coin, or any early portrait silver from Columbia.
1R Santiago - 1778 So DA - Mintage: 95, 000
Also the doubled die on the right column side on the VLTR... Is on the left pillar too...
And something in front of the face just about the mouth area...
@Eddi
Between 1905 and 1943, Mexico minted 20 centavos in silver
Except for 2 years:
1920
1935
The reason? Those years silver became scarce, hence expensive. Something similar happened with 10 centavos. In any event, I just upgraded my bronze 20 centavos to the ones in here. Very high grade, and very good looking. These coins are rather large, and surprisingly popular.
Have a great Thursday!
Last year scarce variety!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Here is a low ball winner, I wanted a pedigree for my type set.
I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it - Clint Eastwood
Nice wholesome coin.
There were some great coins as part of that collection, including a 1783-FM, 1804 CARLVS error, 1814/3-HJ just to name a few off the top of my head. There was also a sus 1778-FM that went unsold. I've picked up a few pieces in that sale, but all had too many hairlines for my taste that were not obvious in the catalog photos (typical Aureo) so i flipped them after getting them into PCGS plastic.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Got this 4R 1784 Mo FM - There is only one graded at NGC in a F condition, none on PCGS also for this year period of 1774-1784 silver fineness: 0.9030 and then these 4R for Charles III are broken into another years period 1785-1789 but less silver fineness: 0.8960, these do not show up raw in better condition, if any. Also if graded for example one right now a 1785 VF20 4R goes for $1.2K
Now, I have about 25+ coins that are waiting to be sent for grading, no idea if this 4R can make it there too.