The days of coin collecting as a mass market hobby are over. But the supply of new material has already adjusted to lower demand, as shown by the four-figure mintages of so many recent commems and collector bullion coins. I see a bright future for coins such as this. The collector base does not have to be large to justify gradual price increases for modern coins that fewer than 10,000 collectors (and in some cases fewer than 3,000 collectors) will ever be able to own.
<< <i>I haven't seen anyone mention this but it looks like the Paul proof spouse coin is backordered so should be a sell out at 3500. This is a new low but the other three are probably lower. >>
..............................................
How have the Alice Paul FS been grading out?? Of those submitted to PCGS what % score 69 vs 70??
The days of coin collecting as a mass market hobby are over. But the supply of new material has already adjusted to lower demand
I see a bright future for coins such as this. The collector base does not have to be large to justify gradual price increases for modern coins that fewer than 10,000 collectors (and in some cases fewer than 3,000 collectors) will ever be able to own.
I think that collecting continues to evolve, and that the collector base will respond to the changing potential in various coin classes on the basis of our old standby - the profit motive. Once in a while, the artistic elements will supercede rarity and a coin like the UHR will become highly-sought after for its own reasons. In other cases such as the American Gold Eagles, a series will become a Modern Classic via its longevity or perhaps because it represents a value in its own right, outside of the fiat currency system.
And yeah, there will always be "old time" collectors who fawn over classic rarities - that's the way it should be. And one fine day, a new collector with means will come along and decide to assemble a complete set of one AGE denomination or other (or Plats, or Spouses, or Gold Buffalos, or Hockey Pucks or ASEs or Modern Commems), and his first observation will be "this isn't gonna be easy but it will be really fabulous when it's complete."
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>6-25 sales report on 13w ms AGE was an additional 384 , bringing total sales to 3084 >>
Thanks!
Anyone know how this compares to where the 12 was about the same amount of time after its release? >>
3 weeks in:
2012W 3,895 vs. 2013W 3,084
So the 13W is lagging behind but given the rapid decline in Gold this is to be expected to a degree. I expect sales should pick up but that means they will decline even further >>
Look for a lot of the first week's sales to be returned (sales number eventually adjusted) since they were available cheaper the next week. I suspect a lot of the initial sales were returned and re-bought or will be re-bought at a lower price.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>dont know if this was posted yet no time to search .... but mint has platinum image up now >>
I really like the design, but not the premium to spot. I think I'll wait for the already slabbed PR69s to hit the market and get one for less than mint issue price...
<< <i>I haven't seen anyone mention this but it looks like the Paul proof spouse coin is backordered so should be a sell out at 3500. This is a new low but the other three are probably lower. >>
I just got the below email from one of the metals companies regarding the '13 plat proof.
This stuff never ceases to amaze me. I wonder how much over issue they will sell them for to people who could just as easily order direct from The Mint. Just amazing.
I love how they speak of their "allocation" - LOL.
"The Mint will soon release the 2013 issue of this proof coin. A strict maximum of only 15,000 will be produced (the final number could be far lower), making it a very special collector issue. The Mint will begin release of these genuine, legal tender proof coins later this month. Stay tuned to xxx online at or call one of our professionals today at 800 xxx to reserve a coin from the allocation we will have available."
<< <i>Ms. Liberty on the platinum has a nice figure but a sour face - constipated, mad, or dogged out by some guy?? >>
I like a Miss Liberty with a little edge. After all liberty does not come very easily in this world and if her face shows a little intensity then it fits for me as long as she is not basically ugly.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
The 2008-W Burnished Unc $50 and $100 in MS-70 FS are as good as keepers as any of the other scarce Plats, except maybe the 2008-W Proofs of the same denomination. Unfortunately, there's no way of knowing when the series will become the highly-sought after series that we thought it might become.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Hmm, the key of all $100 platinum coins and the key to all platinums in all denominations and finishes. Good pickup. There can't be many FSs around. >>
The last couple of these that sold on FeeBay brought BIG $. I may have posted a link on this thread to them - don't remember and don't have time to look back now.
<< <i>Okay what about these: I think in First Strike they may be the keys to the series. >>
Key coins have nothing to do with labels, its all about the coin. First Strike label, just like a higher grade, will add dollars to the price of a key coin. Modern key coins within a series are generally determined by mintage numbers whether the coin is graded or ungraded. One exception to mintage numbers would be the $5 and $10 1999-W unc AGEs, mintages unkown.
Some good links to modern mintages that are worth saving in your favorites:
<< <i>The 2012 W $50 Burnished final mintage was, I believe, 6118. This is still pretty early for the 2013. It would seem that the 13 W will come in higher based on these numbers. >>
What could affect remaining sales of the 2013 W AGE: Dollars redirected to plat proofs and upcoming buff reverese proofs A decision by the big players to make another large purchase A sudden shortage of gold at the mint (has happened before)
Otherwise, the mint most likely struck enough of the 2013 W's to exceed 2012 W sales and they are just sitting on the shelf. What happens to them will determine the outcome. Normally the mint will just sell them until gone, but slow sales and a need for gold to meet other coin demand could result in an early end to sales and the melting pot for what's on the shelf.
In any event they will be among the lowest mintages, so they are probably not a bad play. Odds are there that they could be a homerun, downside on an investment in them is minimal. The downside threat is a continued decline in gold spot.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>What should this be going for? The 10th Anniversary Reverse proof in RP70 First Strike?
For $1,045 I think that the buyer overpaid. This isn't a key coin. >>
In your opinion, it may not be a so called "key coin," but it's the only rev. proof plat. that has ever been produced by the Mint. Supply & Demand for this coin will dictate future prices. And if your field of collecting is rev. proof US Mint products, it's a must have item.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
<< <i>According to mintnewsblog the 2013 platinum eagle sold only 2,139 coins in the first week. I expect the 5 coin order limit to be lifted soon.
It's hard to believe the 2010 coins sold out 10,000 coins in a week when platinum prices were about the same as they are now. >>
Once again....ample supply, but little demand. That has been true for the entire series. Artistically pleasing designs, with limited demand. ( I myself, prefer the color of silver over platinum )
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
Thanks for posting these links, derryb. I've pored over the numbers countless times, but never get tired of looking at them!
BTW, I am noting with interest the PCGS price rises in some of the semi-key $25 AGE bullion dates--1988, 1989, 1992, 1995, & 1996 especially. Of course the 1991 and 1990 have been strong for some time, but these other rises really seem to indicate a core collector base out there--or hoarding. In the past there have been a number of discussions about the dispersion of dates in this time frame, and that could certainly account for a perceived scarcity. I am wondering how often WonderCoin or other dealers are offered these dates?
<< <i>When the 2012 First Spouse Coins went on sale late last year, I thought to myself the Mint likely only made about 2,500 of each unc.. With Alice Paul at 2,471 sold, they should soon go dark if I am right! If mintages go over 2,500 coins there are probably 3K of each available.
>>
I am some what surprised how slow the 2012 FS have been to sell out. >>
I am surprised also, Sales will pick up if Alice Paul goes dark soon. If Alice Paul crosses 2,500 non of them my sell out, the mint will have to Fire up the melting Pot. >>
Well today Uncirculated Alice Paul went over 2,500 coins sold... 3,000 here we come! Lucy Hayes and Lucretia Garfield Will likely remain the number 1 & 2 Keys!!!
<< <i>When the 2012 First Spouse Coins went on sale late last year, I thought to myself the Mint likely only made about 2,500 of each unc.. With Alice Paul at 2,471 sold, they should soon go dark if I am right! If mintages go over 2,500 coins there are probably 3K of each available.
>>
I am some what surprised how slow the 2012 FS have been to sell out. >>
I am surprised also, Sales will pick up if Alice Paul goes dark soon. If Alice Paul crosses 2,500 non of them my sell out, the mint will have to Fire up the melting Pot. >>
Well today Uncirculated Alice Paul went over 2,500 coins sold... 3,000 here we come! Lucy Hayes and Lucretia Garfield Will likely remain the number 1 & 2 Keys!!! >>
I have both Lucy and Lucretia (PCGS MS69 FS) and can't wait to see what happens once we get finalized numbers on Lucretia. Still, I think we're chasing the keys still. 2013 has *five* different spouses, a first. It's throwing darts to see what one might be the key but Uncs with mintages around 2,500 seems to be the new normal.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
Thanks for posting these links, derryb. I've pored over the numbers countless times, but never get tired of looking at them!
Ditto!
I think we're chasing the keys still. 2013 has *five* different spouses, a first. It's throwing darts to see what one might be the key but Uncs with mintages around 2,500 seems to be the new normal.
One thought back in 2007-2008 was that the current group (2012-2013-2014) of relative "unknowns" who were presidential spouses just prior to the more "modern" and recognizable group of spouses such as Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower & Kennedy - would be the low mintage point in the series.
I'd be surprised if they didn't make more than 20,000 Jackies of both Unc & Proof.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Should we stick a fork in the 2013 $50 unc. a.g.e? Showing red with last sales at 4488.... >>
Not yet done, but I wouldn't delay getting an order in if I wanted one.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
It just doesn't matter that much anymore, there are lots of low mintage gold and platinum coins these days. It is the new normal. Try selling a 2012 W Burnished 1 OZ Gold to anyone over $2000. No one is paying that and these coins cost $1750 and some change to get in the first place before grading, time, postage both ways Etc.... Thin margins even if you hold for 5 years on these low mintage one ozers the way I see it. Comments welcome.
"Fresh" simply means not grading rejects, damaged or problem coins. I am not buying someone else's junk at $2,050/coin. You said no one out there is paying $2,000/coin so I stepped up at $2,050/coin. Anyway, regarding 70FS coins, I'll send you a PM on that one now so as to not clutter up the boards with deals.
Wondercoin
edited to add: "It just doesn't matter that much anymore, there are lots of low mintage gold and platinum coins these days. It is the new normal" - This is also a very fair point being advanced.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I'd be surprised if the Mint let the 1 oz. AGEs expire so soon. Then again, you never know what they'll do, and it might be their way of pumping up the excitement level a notch or two.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Comments
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>I haven't seen anyone mention this but it looks like the Paul proof spouse coin is backordered so should be a sell out at 3500. This is a new low but the other three are probably lower. >>
..............................................
How have the Alice Paul FS been grading out??
Of those submitted to PCGS what % score 69 vs 70??
I see a bright future for coins such as this. The collector base does not have to be large to justify gradual price increases for modern coins that fewer than 10,000 collectors (and in some cases fewer than 3,000 collectors) will ever be able to own.
I think that collecting continues to evolve, and that the collector base will respond to the changing potential in various coin classes on the basis of our old standby - the profit motive. Once in a while, the artistic elements will supercede rarity and a coin like the UHR will become highly-sought after for its own reasons. In other cases such as the American Gold Eagles, a series will become a Modern Classic via its longevity or perhaps because it represents a value in its own right, outside of the fiat currency system.
And yeah, there will always be "old time" collectors who fawn over classic rarities - that's the way it should be. And one fine day, a new collector with means will come along and decide to assemble a complete set of one AGE denomination or other (or Plats, or Spouses, or Gold Buffalos, or Hockey Pucks or ASEs or Modern Commems), and his first observation will be "this isn't gonna be easy but it will be really fabulous when it's complete."
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>6-25 sales report on 13w ms AGE was an additional 384 , bringing total sales to 3084 >>
Thanks!
Anyone know how this compares to where the 12 was about the same amount of time after its release? >>
3 weeks in:
2012W 3,895
vs.
2013W 3,084
So the 13W is lagging behind but given the rapid decline in Gold this is to be expected to a degree. I expect sales should pick up but that means they will decline even further
Look for a lot of the first week's sales to be returned (sales number eventually adjusted) since they were available cheaper the next week. I suspect a lot of the initial sales were returned and re-bought or will be re-bought at a lower price.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
dont know if this was posted yet no time to search .... but mint has platinum image up now
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>dont know if this was posted yet no time to search .... but mint has platinum image up now >>
I really like the design, but not the premium to spot. I think I'll wait for the already slabbed PR69s to hit the market and get one for less than mint issue price...
mbogoman
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/classic-issues-colonials-through-1964/zambezi-collection-trade-dollars/7345Asesabi Lutho
<< <i>be a real shame if that dress got caught in those gears and ripped the garment clean off >>
..............................................................................................................................................
Multiple OSHA violations...............
<< <i>dont know if this was posted yet no time to search .... but mint has platinum image up now
<< <i>I haven't seen anyone mention this but it looks like the Paul proof spouse coin is backordered so should be a sell out at 3500. This is a new low but the other three are probably lower. >>
.....................................................................................................................................................
Looks like it is back up with no backorder date.
2013 W AGE Burnished
This is still pretty early for the 2013. It would seem that the 13 W will come in higher based on these numbers.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>What? No frenzied debate over here about the impending 1 oz Buff??? I want one, just don't know how I'll swing it. Be kind, Mint. Be kind. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>What? No frenzied debate over here about the impending 1 oz Buff??? I want one, just don't know how I'll swing it. Be kind, Mint. Be kind. >>
>>
How about a debat over 2013s: AGE burnished vs AGB proof vs AGB rev proof vs APE proof?
This would be interesting.
Link
Cashback from Mr. Rebates
This stuff never ceases to amaze me. I wonder how much over issue they will sell them for to people who could just as easily order direct from The Mint. Just amazing.
I love how they speak of their "allocation" - LOL.
"The Mint will soon release the 2013 issue of this proof coin. A strict maximum of only 15,000 will be produced (the final number could be far lower), making it a very special collector issue. The Mint will begin release of these genuine, legal tender proof coins later this month. Stay tuned to xxx online at or call one of our professionals today at 800 xxx to reserve a coin from the allocation we will have available."
<< <i>Ms. Liberty on the platinum has a nice figure but a sour face - constipated, mad, or dogged out by some guy?? >>
I like a Miss Liberty with a little edge. After all liberty does not come very easily in this world and if her face shows a little intensity then it fits for me as long as she is not basically ugly.
<< <i>Ms. Liberty on the platinum has a nice figure but a sour face - constipated, mad, or dogged out by some guy?? >>
I think she is discussed with the path this Country is taking!!!
I am surprised how long it has taken to sell what few of the 2012 FS coins that have been sold even after an almost $200 drop in price.
Looks like the bottom mintages for this series may be in the 2K range +/- 500
<< <i>Looks like the bottom mintages for this series may be in the 2K range +/- 500 >>
Don't count on it, ugly has no bottom.
For $1,045 I think that the buyer overpaid. This isn't a key coin.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>Looks like the bottom mintages for this series may be in the 2K range +/- 500 >>
Don't count on it, ugly has no bottom.
At some point the effect of ugly wanes and the effect of scarcity waxes. We just don't know where.
I think in First Strike they may be the keys to the series. Long term potential?
$100 2008-W MS70 Platinum FIRST STRIKE
$50 2008-W MS70 Platinum First Strike
Cashback from Mr. Rebates
<< <i>Okay what about these:
I think in First Strike they may be the keys to the series. Long term potential?
$100 2008-W MS70 Platinum FIRST STRIKE
$50 2008-W MS70 Platinum First Strike >>
Hmm, the key of all $100 platinum coins and the key to all platinums in all denominations and finishes. Good pickup.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>Okay what about these:
I think in First Strike they may be the keys to the series. Long term potential?
$100 2008-W MS70 Platinum FIRST STRIKE
$50 2008-W MS70 Platinum First Strike >>
Hmm, the key of all $100 platinum coins and the key to all platinums in all denominations and finishes. Good pickup.
The last couple of these that sold on FeeBay brought BIG $. I may have posted a link on this thread to them - don't remember and don't have time to look back now.
An '08 W Proof 70FS $50 APE went for $5K.
<< <i>Okay what about these: I think in First Strike they may be the keys to the series. >>
Key coins have nothing to do with labels, its all about the coin. First Strike label, just like a higher grade, will add dollars to the price of a key coin. Modern key coins within a series are generally determined by mintage numbers whether the coin is graded or ungraded. One exception to mintage numbers would be the $5 and $10 1999-W unc AGEs, mintages unkown.
Some good links to modern mintages that are worth saving in your favorites:
AGE mintages
ASE mintages
APE mintages
Gold buffalo mintages
Modern commemorative mintages
First spouse mintages
<< <i>The 2012 W $50 Burnished final mintage was, I believe, 6118. This is still pretty early for the 2013. It would seem that the 13 W will come in higher based on these numbers. >>
What could affect remaining sales of the 2013 W AGE:
Dollars redirected to plat proofs and upcoming buff reverese proofs
A decision by the big players to make another large purchase
A sudden shortage of gold at the mint (has happened before)
Otherwise, the mint most likely struck enough of the 2013 W's to exceed 2012 W sales and they are just sitting on the shelf. What happens to them will determine the outcome. Normally the mint will just sell them until gone, but slow sales and a need for gold to meet other coin demand could result in an early end to sales and the melting pot for what's on the shelf.
In any event they will be among the lowest mintages, so they are probably not a bad play. Odds are there that they could be a homerun, downside on an investment in them is minimal. The downside threat is a continued decline in gold spot.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>What should this be going for? The 10th Anniversary Reverse proof in RP70 First Strike?
For $1,045 I think that the buyer overpaid. This isn't a key coin. >>
In your opinion, it may not be a so called "key coin," but it's the only rev. proof plat. that has ever been produced by the Mint. Supply & Demand for this coin will dictate future prices. And if your field of collecting is rev. proof US Mint products, it's a must have item.
It's hard to believe the 2010 coins sold out 10,000 coins in a week when platinum prices were about the same as they are now.
<< <i>According to mintnewsblog the 2013 platinum eagle sold only 2,139 coins in the first week. I expect the 5 coin order limit to be lifted soon.
It's hard to believe the 2010 coins sold out 10,000 coins in a week when platinum prices were about the same as they are now. >>
Once again....ample supply, but little demand. That has been true for the entire series. Artistically pleasing designs, with limited demand. ( I myself, prefer the color of silver over platinum )
BTW, I am noting with interest the PCGS price rises in some of the semi-key $25 AGE bullion dates--1988, 1989, 1992, 1995, & 1996 especially. Of course the 1991 and 1990 have been strong for some time, but these other rises really seem to indicate a core collector base out there--or hoarding. In the past there have been a number of discussions about the dispersion of dates in this time frame, and that could certainly account for a perceived scarcity. I am wondering how often WonderCoin or other dealers are offered these dates?
Thanks so much for posting these links!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>When the 2012 First Spouse Coins went on sale late last year, I
thought to myself the Mint likely only made about 2,500 of each unc..
With Alice Paul at 2,471 sold, they should soon go dark if I am right!
If mintages go over 2,500 coins there are probably 3K of each available.
I am some what surprised how slow the 2012 FS have been to sell out. >>
I am surprised also, Sales will pick up if Alice Paul goes dark soon.
If Alice Paul crosses 2,500 non of them my sell out, the mint will have to
Fire up the melting Pot. >>
Well today Uncirculated Alice Paul went over 2,500 coins sold... 3,000 here we come!
Lucy Hayes and Lucretia Garfield Will likely remain the number 1 & 2 Keys!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>When the 2012 First Spouse Coins went on sale late last year, I
thought to myself the Mint likely only made about 2,500 of each unc..
With Alice Paul at 2,471 sold, they should soon go dark if I am right!
If mintages go over 2,500 coins there are probably 3K of each available.
I am some what surprised how slow the 2012 FS have been to sell out. >>
I am surprised also, Sales will pick up if Alice Paul goes dark soon.
If Alice Paul crosses 2,500 non of them my sell out, the mint will have to
Fire up the melting Pot. >>
Well today Uncirculated Alice Paul went over 2,500 coins sold... 3,000 here we come!
Lucy Hayes and Lucretia Garfield Will likely remain the number 1 & 2 Keys!!! >>
I have both Lucy and Lucretia (PCGS MS69 FS) and can't wait to see what happens once we get finalized numbers on Lucretia. Still, I think we're chasing the keys still. 2013 has *five* different spouses, a first. It's throwing darts to see what one might be the key but Uncs with mintages around 2,500 seems to be the new normal.
Ditto!
I think we're chasing the keys still. 2013 has *five* different spouses, a first. It's throwing darts to see what one might be the key but Uncs with mintages around 2,500 seems to be the new normal.
One thought back in 2007-2008 was that the current group (2012-2013-2014) of relative "unknowns" who were presidential spouses just prior to the more "modern" and recognizable group of spouses such as Roosevelt, Truman, Eisenhower & Kennedy - would be the low mintage point in the series.
I'd be surprised if they didn't make more than 20,000 Jackies of both Unc & Proof.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Should we stick a fork in the 2013 $50 unc. a.g.e? Showing red with last sales at 4488.... >>
Not yet done, but I wouldn't delay getting an order in if I wanted one.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
<< <i>Should we stick a fork in the 2013 $50 unc. a.g.e? Showing red with last sales at 4488.... >>
Not yet done, but I wouldn't delay getting an order in if I wanted one. >>
It's still possible for the Mint to strike another batch, like they did with the 2010 unc. Buchanan's Liberty first spouse.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I'll buy some fresh 2012-W Burnished 1 oz Gold coins at $2,050/coin today. How many can you sell me?
Wondercoin
Wondercoin
edited to add: "It just doesn't matter that much anymore, there are lots of low mintage gold and platinum coins these days. It is the new normal" - This is also a very fair point being advanced.
I knew it would happen.