Yes it is somewhat surprising how the mint manages to sell a lot of gold and platinum eagles each year at a price higher than the market price for earlier years which are often far rarer.
I believe a lot of these current sales are individuals buying a fixed amount each year.
Part PM hoarders and some lessor degree of collecting.
The most surprising are the 6,000-10,000 of the $100 platinum eagles sold each year...........
(2015 obvious exception)
IMO there are a far better platinum eagles to buy in the 2008 and earlier time period that can be had at better prices.
If bullion Platinum Eagles were struck to demand, there would be a lot more out there. The Mint seems to produce small quantities intermittently, and only in the one ounce size since 2008.
@HalfStrike said:
The mint has gone back to releasing too many products, and they are doing it because they need the revenues. With more releases that means sales will be lower for most products. Those that might have purchased the commemoratives will instead purchase the one-year special releases.
As they keep adding to the number of coins released, it makes it more expensive to collect them so fewer will buy past issues. That drives prices lower.
Hm... am not sure I agree with this. Don't sales of eagles dwarf commemorative sales? It seems to me that if the Mint really wanted to just make money, they'd eliminate commemoratives altogether. Sure, a few such as the Walker, Mercury, etc... do very well, but I can't believe the NPS gold was a big money maker for them. Correct me if I'm wrong...
I would suspect the NPS was still a money maker for the US Mint, even though it was not a blockbuster. But even if it wasn't... perhaps they consider many of the items to be 'loss leaders'. Hey, if it gets someone into the store, and they like it, then they purchase more items. The US Mint customer list is pretty large, and they are not all just eagle purchasers.
@jmski52 said: Originally posted by: renman95
Fast forward to 2021...you have the 2016 Merc, SLQ, and Walker, plus the 2009 UHR and 2014 Kennedy. What's missing? A gold 2021 High Relief Peace dollar.
What's missing? To answer that question, we are missing a gold Indian Cent, a gold Lincoln Wheat Cent, a gold Lincoln Memorial Cent, a gold Buffalo Nickel, a gold Jefferson Nickel, a gold Barber Dime, a gold Roosie, a gold Barber Quarter, a gold Washington Quarter (classic style), a gold Barber Half, a gold Franklin Half, a gold Morgan, a gold Peace Dollar, and a gold Eisenhower Dollar. Throw in a gold Susie if you really wanna get crazy.
If that's not enough, start working your way back into the Flowing Hair, Classic Head and Bust coins. It would drive the classic coin collectors nuts.
Seriously, I don't think that Eric was off the mark. Demographics and economics always change and the market does go through cycles. In 1850, there may only have been 200 coin collectors, or 500. In 1960, there were 3 million to 4 million proof sets sold every year - to collectors, old and young.
Some of the relationships between mintages, selling rates, scrap percentages, comparisons between various classic series vs. modern series - they still all remain valid, in my opinion. The market doesn't always react on our specified timetable, but I do think that these relationships are interesting and worthwhile to note.
...I was thinking more in the line of upcoming anniversaries. After the 1oz gold 2021 Peace Dollar it's going be quite some time until the next milestone; 2038 Jefferson, 2046 Rosie, 2048 Frankie, 2064 Kennedy, 2071 Ike... I guess the Mint could go back and do 200th and 150th anniversary issues...
@renman95 said:
...I was thinking more in the line of upcoming anniversaries. After the 1oz gold 2021 Peace Dollar it's going be quite some time until the next milestone; 2038 Jefferson, 2046 Rosie, 2048 Frankie, 2064 Kennedy, 2071 Ike... I guess the Mint could go back and do 200th and 150th anniversary issues...
Don't forget the ever-popular 2032 Washington quarter.
And maybe they can do gold versions of the classic commem halves. I bet they would rival the First Spouse coins in popularity . . .
I think we need something Big, Bold, and Gold. Something bigger than the 5 oz of Silver in the ATB Quarters. Could we get 5 oz of Gold in the 1/2 Cent Denomination? That would be so crazy. ............ and really cool.
I just noticed that my first post on that thread was on page 3.
I think most of us would agree that Eric is greatly missed. it is gratifying to see how many people who are active in that thread over 10 years ago are still very active today.
It was also neat seeing Bears Post in that thread. His passing was such a loss.
Eric's book only needs to be updated. His methodology and observations are still relevant. The best time to buy deep keys in these series is when they are unloved.
The recent mintages for gold commems are very low. Plats have seen a significant rise in production mintages lately. Some of the more recent unc AGEs are on the low side as well.
As always, the demand side of the equation makes a significant difference. Whenever it happens, all it takes is a little bump in the precious metals markets and we will see new collectors popping out of the woodwork, left and right.
At that point, I do believe that things will get interesting for whole series and especially for the low mintage keys. It hasn't been that long ago, and I think that the same market drivers will become operative as they were in 2006-2008.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Concerning series such as the Plats, the AGEs, the Buffs, and the Spouses - as some of the existing collections begin to be dispersed, it becomes harder to make a premier collection happen without spending premier money.
You heard it here first.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
I wouldn't touch any of those old series this early because the mintages are too high. If the spouse coins were released today, they would sell even fewer coins than they did back then, the same goes for everything else. Sales of spouse coins needed to be under 500 to sustain a market.
The gold comm market collapsed, the current sales of the Legion gold unc comm is under 2000. 2018 Unc w silver eagle hit a new low. Same with the recent ounce w unc gold eagle, and that one barely holds a premium.
The modern chinese coin market is the same, there are coins with mintages of 1000 that can't be sold, and buyers complain on prices, expecting near spot.
I still think some day the key coins will have their day, but it may take 20 years to see it.
The flippers ten years ago added too many sales, it was an unnatural "demand" that decreases the coins eventual values. Today i think sales are what they would have been without that.
PS Look at how fast the premiums on the new W quarters in circulation fell.
@HalfStrike said:
I wouldn't touch any of those old series this early because the mintages are too high. If the spouse coins were released today, they would sell even fewer coins than they did back then, the same goes for everything else. Sales of spouse coins needed to be under 500 to sustain a market.
The gold comm market collapsed, the current sales of the Legion gold unc comm is under 2000. 2018 Unc w silver eagle hit a new low. Same with the recent ounce w unc gold eagle, and that one barely holds a premium.
The modern chinese coin market is the same, there are coins with mintages of 1000 that can't be sold, and buyers complain on prices, expecting near spot.
I still think some day the key coins will have their day, but it may take 20 years to see it.
The flippers ten years ago added too many sales, it was an unnatural "demand" that decreases the coins eventual values. Today i think sales are what they would have been without that.
PS Look at how fast the premiums on the new W quarters in circulation fell.
And it should be added: is anyone ever going to want a full set of gold spouses? It's a full topic eith mostly uninspired designs with a $25,000+ price tag with NO numismatic premium.
These will never be more than bullion in my ever humble opinion
PS Look at how fast the premiums on the new W quarters in circulation fell.
typical of most all modern mint releases that get hyped.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
These will never be more than bullion in my ever humble opinion
One of the cheapest ways to stack quality gold.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
From the original post in 2007, how have these "General Guidelines" performed?
*General Guidelines:
If I could hand a new collector a grocery list of what to look for it would be the following:
1) Favor series with a major unifying design aspect that is hard to get past.
2) Each coin should be differentiated not just on mint marks and dates because the rest of the world is going type and we may too at some point. Its insurance.
3) Buy coins with mintages less than 7000 coins because if you graph price vs population of design based type coins over the last 100 years the point at which they have a tendency to take off is about 6,500 coins. Anything less that that is pay dirt for the patient.
4) Buy coins with higher mintages only if the total population of the set is massive.
5) Series that have constant designs on the front and back can excel going forward provided the total populations of the series is massive and the keys possess such low mintages that they are profound bottle necks.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
And it should be added: is anyone ever going to want a full set of gold spouses? It's a full topic eith mostly uninspired designs with a $25,000+ price tag with NO numismatic premium.
You mean for half of a set at that price of around melt!
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
A lot of those spouse coins will eventually be melted, but it will take years and some spike in gold. That's the best hope.
If i was young and was looking to get into this market of modern coins, i would not be buying the older key date coins for the reasons i described. The market has changed from what it was even ten years ago, and the sales have declined as a result. To make money in this I would concentrate on the newest keys being made as sales fall, and flip when possible for profits. I sold off my entire key collection a few years ago and am lucky i did it, as i doubt i would see 65% of the prices i got.
The lowest gold unc comms look promising, with sales having fallen under 4000. A real long shot is the S quarters from the mint, they may get legs from the w quarters someday. Flip the palladium. The best buys are obviously when the mint screws up and underestimates demand, and stops sales early.
Trying to give good advice though on what to buy is almost asking for failure, since the big buyers have access to final sales levels left at the mint, and have a big advantage now.
@wondercoin said:
And it should be added: is anyone ever going to want a full set of gold spouses? It's a full topic eith mostly uninspired designs with a $25,000+ price tag with NO numismatic premium.
You mean for half of a set at that price of around melt!
Wondercoin.
True. I was thinking one of each spouse, but there's also proof and unc versions. So that's $50,000 in bullion alone for a set of "mint medals". I just can't see it.
@HalfStrike said:
A lot of those spouse coins will eventually be melted, but it will take years and some spike in gold. That's the best hope.
If i was young and was looking to get into this market of modern coins, i would not be buying the older key date coins for the reasons i described. The market has changed from what it was even ten years ago, and the sales have declined as a result. To make money in this I would concentrate on the newest keys being made as sales fall, and flip when possible for profits. I sold off my entire key collection a few years ago and am lucky i did it, as i doubt i would see 65% of the prices i got.
The lowest gold unc comms look promising, with sales having fallen under 4000. A real long shot is the S quarters from the mint, they may get legs from the w quarters someday. Flip the palladium. The best buys are obviously when the mint screws up and underestimates demand, and stops sales early.
Trying to give good advice though on what to buy is almost asking for failure, since the big buyers have access to final sales levels left at the mint, and have a big advantage now.
Agreed.
Personally, I continue to believe the best advice on what to buy is to simply buy what you like and consider it sunk money. Whatever you get out of it later is just a bonus.
The fun is in the hun, in acquiring that piece you wanted, in admiring the collection you've assembled. You could also have fun with the dispersal (maybe), but profit when considering opportunity costs is likely to be elusive.
Let's have our fun and not worry about what's going up or going down.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
@derryb said:
I buy gold spouses only for a cheap bullion play.
Agreed, derryb. Imo, with these 'slugs' being 24K gold sometimes being obtained for below melt for TPS gtaded 70's, is the best bullion stacking game out there.
Comments
Yes it is somewhat surprising how the mint manages to sell a lot of gold and platinum eagles each year at a price higher than the market price for earlier years which are often far rarer.
I believe a lot of these current sales are individuals buying a fixed amount each year.
Part PM hoarders and some lessor degree of collecting.
The most surprising are the 6,000-10,000 of the $100 platinum eagles sold each year...........
(2015 obvious exception)
IMO there are a far better platinum eagles to buy in the 2008 and earlier time period that can be had at better prices.
Go figure............
If bullion Platinum Eagles were struck to demand, there would be a lot more out there. The Mint seems to produce small quantities intermittently, and only in the one ounce size since 2008.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Hm... am not sure I agree with this. Don't sales of eagles dwarf commemorative sales? It seems to me that if the Mint really wanted to just make money, they'd eliminate commemoratives altogether. Sure, a few such as the Walker, Mercury, etc... do very well, but I can't believe the NPS gold was a big money maker for them. Correct me if I'm wrong...
I would suspect the NPS was still a money maker for the US Mint, even though it was not a blockbuster. But even if it wasn't... perhaps they consider many of the items to be 'loss leaders'. Hey, if it gets someone into the store, and they like it, then they purchase more items. The US Mint customer list is pretty large, and they are not all just eagle purchasers.
I thought the same thing. Great thread.
...I was thinking more in the line of upcoming anniversaries. After the 1oz gold 2021 Peace Dollar it's going be quite some time until the next milestone; 2038 Jefferson, 2046 Rosie, 2048 Frankie, 2064 Kennedy, 2071 Ike... I guess the Mint could go back and do 200th and 150th anniversary issues...
Don't forget the ever-popular 2032 Washington quarter.
And maybe they can do gold versions of the classic commem halves. I bet they would rival the First Spouse coins in popularity . . .
.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Sign me up for the gold Oregon Trail.
Well, just Love coins, period.
I think we need something Big, Bold, and Gold. Something bigger than the 5 oz of Silver in the ATB Quarters. Could we get 5 oz of Gold in the 1/2 Cent Denomination? That would be so crazy. ............ and really cool.
This was the best thread of all time here, and I enjoyed it for many years!
David
Absolutely agree David. The best.
I just noticed that my first post on that thread was on page 3.
I think most of us would agree that Eric is greatly missed. it is gratifying to see how many people who are active in that thread over 10 years ago are still very active today.
It was also neat seeing Bears Post in that thread. His passing was such a loss.
Indeed, that was such a great thread.
Does anyone know what the two lowest-mintage uncirculated "First Spouse" coins are and, of so, what their final mintage figures are?
Thanks!
https://coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2017/03/first-spouse-gold-coin-series-done-but-not-forgotten.all.html
Or go to PCGS coin facts
Coin Facts:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/category/first-spouses-2007-date/1652
Edit:
Ye ol’ thread alert
The last sales numbers from the Mint are:
Ford = 1,824
Nixon = 1,839
For the proofs it is:
Coolidge = 2,315
Harding 2,372
The lowest minted and most popular pair (UNC+PR) is:
Eleanor Roosevelt = 4,263
These Spouse coins have some amazingly low mintages and some can be bought for melt or less (with eBay Bucks)!
Eric's book only needs to be updated. His methodology and observations are still relevant. The best time to buy deep keys in these series is when they are unloved.
The recent mintages for gold commems are very low. Plats have seen a significant rise in production mintages lately. Some of the more recent unc AGEs are on the low side as well.
As always, the demand side of the equation makes a significant difference. Whenever it happens, all it takes is a little bump in the precious metals markets and we will see new collectors popping out of the woodwork, left and right.
At that point, I do believe that things will get interesting for whole series and especially for the low mintage keys. It hasn't been that long ago, and I think that the same market drivers will become operative as they were in 2006-2008.
I knew it would happen.
Concerning series such as the Plats, the AGEs, the Buffs, and the Spouses - as some of the existing collections begin to be dispersed, it becomes harder to make a premier collection happen without spending premier money.
You heard it here first.
I knew it would happen.
I wouldn't touch any of those old series this early because the mintages are too high. If the spouse coins were released today, they would sell even fewer coins than they did back then, the same goes for everything else. Sales of spouse coins needed to be under 500 to sustain a market.
The gold comm market collapsed, the current sales of the Legion gold unc comm is under 2000. 2018 Unc w silver eagle hit a new low. Same with the recent ounce w unc gold eagle, and that one barely holds a premium.
The modern chinese coin market is the same, there are coins with mintages of 1000 that can't be sold, and buyers complain on prices, expecting near spot.
I still think some day the key coins will have their day, but it may take 20 years to see it.
The flippers ten years ago added too many sales, it was an unnatural "demand" that decreases the coins eventual values. Today i think sales are what they would have been without that.
PS Look at how fast the premiums on the new W quarters in circulation fell.
And it should be added: is anyone ever going to want a full set of gold spouses? It's a full topic eith mostly uninspired designs with a $25,000+ price tag with NO numismatic premium.
These will never be more than bullion in my ever humble opinion
typical of most all modern mint releases that get hyped.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
One of the cheapest ways to stack quality gold.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
From the original post in 2007, how have these "General Guidelines" performed?
If I could hand a new collector a grocery list of what to look for it would be the following:
1) Favor series with a major unifying design aspect that is hard to get past.
2) Each coin should be differentiated not just on mint marks and dates because the rest of the world is going type and we may too at some point. Its insurance.
3) Buy coins with mintages less than 7000 coins because if you graph price vs population of design based type coins over the last 100 years the point at which they have a tendency to take off is about 6,500 coins. Anything less that that is pay dirt for the patient.
4) Buy coins with higher mintages only if the total population of the set is massive.
5) Series that have constant designs on the front and back can excel going forward provided the total populations of the series is massive and the keys possess such low mintages that they are profound bottle necks.
And it should be added: is anyone ever going to want a full set of gold spouses? It's a full topic eith mostly uninspired designs with a $25,000+ price tag with NO numismatic premium.
You mean for half of a set at that price of around melt!
Wondercoin.
A lot of those spouse coins will eventually be melted, but it will take years and some spike in gold. That's the best hope.
If i was young and was looking to get into this market of modern coins, i would not be buying the older key date coins for the reasons i described. The market has changed from what it was even ten years ago, and the sales have declined as a result. To make money in this I would concentrate on the newest keys being made as sales fall, and flip when possible for profits. I sold off my entire key collection a few years ago and am lucky i did it, as i doubt i would see 65% of the prices i got.
The lowest gold unc comms look promising, with sales having fallen under 4000. A real long shot is the S quarters from the mint, they may get legs from the w quarters someday. Flip the palladium. The best buys are obviously when the mint screws up and underestimates demand, and stops sales early.
Trying to give good advice though on what to buy is almost asking for failure, since the big buyers have access to final sales levels left at the mint, and have a big advantage now.
True. I was thinking one of each spouse, but there's also proof and unc versions. So that's $50,000 in bullion alone for a set of "mint medals". I just can't see it.
Agreed.
Personally, I continue to believe the best advice on what to buy is to simply buy what you like and consider it sunk money. Whatever you get out of it later is just a bonus.
The fun is in the hun, in acquiring that piece you wanted, in admiring the collection you've assembled. You could also have fun with the dispersal (maybe), but profit when considering opportunity costs is likely to be elusive.
Let's have our fun and not worry about what's going up or going down.
I buy gold spouses only for a cheap bullion play.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Agreed, derryb. Imo, with these 'slugs' being 24K gold sometimes being obtained for below melt for TPS gtaded 70's, is the best bullion stacking game out there.