<< <i>Clawdia, my comments are based on pricing prior to today's hit on gold, which is real but I suspect temporary...
The 2007-W burnished AGE Sets seem to have been on a steady climb, and recent ebay transactions have pushed the NGC-70 ER Set and the Raw Set to up over $4,000. The only record of a PCGS-70 Set being sold was for $3,660 and it's anyone's guess how long ago that was, because I don't log in each sales date. The 2007-W burnished AGE Sets have been trending upwards consistantly in every flavor for quite awhile now.
The 1/4 oz. 2008-W burnished AGE has kept its premium and has been rangebound with a very slight upward bias for a long time. Current ebay transactions have put the price somewhere in the $1,250 to $1,350 range for MS-69 and Raw coins, and in the range of $1,450 to $1,650 for MS-70 coins. There is some variability from one sale to the next.
Individually, the 1/4 oz. and 1/2 oz. 2007-W AGEs have done well. The 1/4 ozer in MS-69 and Raw, has been sold in the $550 to $750 range and the MS-70 has sold in the $625 to $900 range - both with a slight upward bias, but both with huge swings in prices realized from one sale to the next. The 1/2 ozer has been moving up strongly until just recently. It will take a few more sales to see if this is a top, or whether the trend will continue upwards. The 1/2 ozer has sold in MS-69 from $1,300 to $1,450 and in MS-70 and Raw in the $1,450 to $1,750 range with wide variations from one sale to the next.
Today's selloff in gold will probably affect these prices and it may take a few weeks for a consolidation to reflect any new pricing. Hope this helps. >>
Thanks very much - that helps quite a bit - and makes me feel better, too. As a newbie back in 2008, I picked up some 2007-W coins without even realizing there was anything special about them. That set of 2007-W Eagles aren't graded, but are still in the box as they were sold by the Mint. By the time I bought the 2008-W $10 coins, I knew more what I was doing.
One further question, if you happen to see this - I have several slabbed MS69 2007-W $5 coins. Now, I realize I was a real idiot not to pay the ebay seller the additional $10 he was asking for MS70s that day, but would you know if these 69s are worth a premium? I only bought slabbed coins with any rarity value when I bought them for the same price as what bullion coins were going for at the time, so it seems in some cases I may have 'accidentally' made a little money, but I'm not sure if these would fall into that profitable category.
My only intentional purchases of anything other than bullion were the three 2008-W $10 coins I bought, a Prosperity Set, and a couple of fractional buffs. I too think the recent hits on gold are going to be temporary, but even if not I can't complain.
I'm also still wondering if I should pick up a Buchanan spouse (or non-spouse, rather) coin to complete my sub-set. I'm tempted, recently, for sure - tempted to sell my MS-70 Elizabeth Monroe and buy the Buchanan instead - not only would I like the complete sub-set, but Elizabeth is a bit hard on the eyes as far as I'm concerned! >>
Hi Clawdia-
Which 2008 W $10 coins did you buy? If they were the AGE Uncs. you did very, very well as they are currently the keys to the entire AGE series. >>
Sorry - late to answer - out of the loop in a major way again. Hopefully back to stay, now.
I bought the 2008 W $10 Uncs., for sure. As I said, by the time I bought those I knew a bit more about what I was doing. Also have a couple of 1/10ths in those 2008 W Uncs., but they're not as important. Wish I had more than 3 of the $10 coins, but that's better than nothing. Those and a Prosperity Set, and a 1/2 2008 Buff proof and a 1/4 Buff unc. are what I think are my best coins.
One more try at this question - I have 3 of the Spouse Liberty coins in Proof, just missing the Buchanan. Would it be worth the current cost of the Buchanan to complete the set at current valuation, in anyone's opinion? I saw last night Apmex is selling the 4 coin set for more than $6000 - and the Buchanan would be the only coin I would end up paying what seems like too much to buy . . . I'm tempted, but don't want to do anything stupid after finally managing to do a few things right!
<< <i>Saw these 2006 $50s sell on BST for $850, a little depressed about the low price but even more depressed I did not have the extra money to buy them.
"2006-W Burnished platinum $50 in OGP (two of these): **SOLD** 2006-W Burnished platinum $50 NGC MS69 Early Release (two of these): **SOLD** 2007-W Burnished platinum $50 in mint capsule: $875" >>
I bought the '06 coins. The prices on the burnished plats is just stupidly low, it's hard to find generic plat eagles for that price! These are going into storage, someday they will be appreciated for what they are.
<< <i>Clawdia, my comments are based on pricing prior to today's hit on gold, which is real but I suspect temporary...
The 2007-W burnished AGE Sets seem to have been on a steady climb, and recent ebay transactions have pushed the NGC-70 ER Set and the Raw Set to up over $4,000. The only record of a PCGS-70 Set being sold was for $3,660 and it's anyone's guess how long ago that was, because I don't log in each sales date. The 2007-W burnished AGE Sets have been trending upwards consistantly in every flavor for quite awhile now.
The 1/4 oz. 2008-W burnished AGE has kept its premium and has been rangebound with a very slight upward bias for a long time. Current ebay transactions have put the price somewhere in the $1,250 to $1,350 range for MS-69 and Raw coins, and in the range of $1,450 to $1,650 for MS-70 coins. There is some variability from one sale to the next.
Individually, the 1/4 oz. and 1/2 oz. 2007-W AGEs have done well. The 1/4 ozer in MS-69 and Raw, has been sold in the $550 to $750 range and the MS-70 has sold in the $625 to $900 range - both with a slight upward bias, but both with huge swings in prices realized from one sale to the next. The 1/2 ozer has been moving up strongly until just recently. It will take a few more sales to see if this is a top, or whether the trend will continue upwards. The 1/2 ozer has sold in MS-69 from $1,300 to $1,450 and in MS-70 and Raw in the $1,450 to $1,750 range with wide variations from one sale to the next.
Today's selloff in gold will probably affect these prices and it may take a few weeks for a consolidation to reflect any new pricing. Hope this helps. >>
Thanks very much - that helps quite a bit - and makes me feel better, too. As a newbie back in 2008, I picked up some 2007-W coins without even realizing there was anything special about them. That set of 2007-W Eagles aren't graded, but are still in the box as they were sold by the Mint. By the time I bought the 2008-W $10 coins, I knew more what I was doing.
One further question, if you happen to see this - I have several slabbed MS69 2007-W $5 coins. Now, I realize I was a real idiot not to pay the ebay seller the additional $10 he was asking for MS70s that day, but would you know if these 69s are worth a premium? I only bought slabbed coins with any rarity value when I bought them for the same price as what bullion coins were going for at the time, so it seems in some cases I may have 'accidentally' made a little money, but I'm not sure if these would fall into that profitable category.
My only intentional purchases of anything other than bullion were the three 2008-W $10 coins I bought, a Prosperity Set, and a couple of fractional buffs. I too think the recent hits on gold are going to be temporary, but even if not I can't complain.
I'm also still wondering if I should pick up a Buchanan spouse (or non-spouse, rather) coin to complete my sub-set. I'm tempted, recently, for sure - tempted to sell my MS-70 Elizabeth Monroe and buy the Buchanan instead - not only would I like the complete sub-set, but Elizabeth is a bit hard on the eyes as far as I'm concerned! >>
Hi Clawdia-
Which 2008 W $10 coins did you buy? If they were the AGE Uncs. you did very, very well as they are currently the keys to the entire AGE series. >>
Sorry - late to answer - out of the loop in a major way again. Hopefully back to stay, now.
I bought the 2008 W $10 Uncs., for sure. As I said, by the time I bought those I knew a bit more about what I was doing. Also have a couple of 1/10ths in those 2008 W Uncs., but they're not as important. Wish I had more than 3 of the $10 coins, but that's better than nothing. Those and a Prosperity Set, and a 1/2 2008 Buff proof and a 1/4 Buff unc. are what I think are my best coins.
One more try at this question - I have 3 of the Spouse Liberty coins in Proof, just missing the Buchanan. Would it be worth the current cost of the Buchanan to complete the set at current valuation, in anyone's opinion? I saw last night Apmex is selling the 4 coin set for more than $6000 - and the Buchanan would be the only coin I would end up paying what seems like too much to buy . . . I'm tempted, but don't want to do anything stupid after finally managing to do a few things right! >>
the Buchanan would be the only coin I would end up paying what seems like too much to buy . . . I'm tempted, but don't want to do anything stupid after finally managing to do a few things right!
Buying the Proof Buchanan at today's price can't get you into too much trouble. Just my opinion.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Saw these 2006 $50s sell on BST for $850, a little depressed about the low price but even more depressed I did not have the extra money to buy them.
"2006-W Burnished platinum $50 in OGP (two of these): **SOLD** 2006-W Burnished platinum $50 NGC MS69 Early Release (two of these): **SOLD** 2007-W Burnished platinum $50 in mint capsule: $875" >>
I bought the '06 coins. The prices on the burnished plats is just stupidly low, it's hard to find generic plat eagles for that price! These are going into storage, someday they will be appreciated for what they are. >>
-----<< Saw these 2006 $50s sell on BST for $850, a little depressed about the low price but even more depressed I did not have the extra money to buy them.
"2006-W Burnished platinum $50 in OGP (two of these): **SOLD** 2006-W Burnished platinum $50 NGC MS69 Early Release (two of these): **SOLD** 2007-W Burnished platinum $50 in mint capsule: $875" >>
I bought the '06 coins. The prices on the burnished plats is just stupidly low, it's hard to find generic plat eagles for that price! These are going into storage, someday they will be appreciated for what they are.---------------------
I thought so too I bought the other two just couldn't get all four after buying the 25th sets
This may seem like a strange post, but I just wanted to say thank you to Eric for putting his book together. The opportunity to buy tomorrow's classics for close to melt today seems like a no-brainer to me. Yet I'm amazed by the fact more people haven't caught on to some of the recent 'gifts' from the mint. I nearly had to beg my favorite LCS to buy the 25th sets last month as I wanted to make sure he received at least five sets as he's a really good guy and I knew these would be winners. Even when I attend shows and ask people about spouses and plat eagles the look on the average dealer's face is one of surprise.
Anyway I just wanted to say thanks Eric as reading your book changed my entire perspective on "stacking" and has already theoretically put me way ahead of where I would have been otherwise.
You are so welcome SOLO. Just keep buying the rare stuff while it is young close to melt and you will do just fine. If you or anyone else that likes moderns coins ever needs any help or have a question you can get me at 770-377-3703. Modern Coin Mart Just got 500 of our moderns text in and will start sending them out with larger orders soon.
:-)
John Maben and I are working on new material to help the moderns collectors and thats why I have been hard to come by lately. I am writing every night until about 2AM. :-)
I second Eric's book-- I skipped getting a 2011 Redbook and kept my 2009 instead and got Eric's book. It makes for fantastic reading! I only wonder if he's going to release new editions every few years or so. A lot happens in 2 years.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
<< Just keep buying the rare stuff while it is young close to melt and you will do just fine. >>
Absolutely! While prices are rising rapidly on the 100K-mintage 25th Anniversary Silver Eagle sets, it's nice to remember that sub-4K-mintage Platinum Eagles are still available for a song (relatively speaking). They will eventually have their day in the sun.
"<< It always comes down to one basic economic function: SUPPLY AND DEMAND. No demand for the Plats, even with a limited supply. >>
"BRILLIANT!"
Is it really? There was no demand for Pan Pac Slugs, Matte Proof Gold, etc for years after they went obsolete. No one wanted Jackie Robinson. It is the over looked(troubled infancy) coins that in time have the potential to become truly great. I like, collect, and write about worthy moderns in general be they silver gold or platinum. Some areas take off faster than others but over time all the great moderns are going to get hit.......
If you dont like rare moderns as a coinage class then dont spend the money on them.........but its a mistake if you like growth.
Supply and demand is true, but both sides of that can change.
Supply can only decrease.
Demand can move both ways.
If there is no demand than the coins sell for melt and slowly get melted, eventually the supply drops to demand. I think that is what happened with the low mintage Chinese moderns, a couple years ago you could get them for close to melt, today they sell for ten times melt. Over ten to 15 years they were destroyed and today the survivors are left with high valuations.
How long will it take with US platinum?
We probably need a better economy and more melting, maybe the burnished coins will be lost in with the bullion in enough numbers to get them melted. In 30 years the coins we think are key today may not end up the key, that has happened with many US coins.
<< <i>Is it really? There was no demand for Pan Pac Slugs, Matte Proof Gold, etc for years after they went obsolete. No one wanted Jackie Robinson. It is the over looked(troubled infancy) coins that in time have the potential to become truly great. I like, collect, and write about worthy moderns in general be they silver gold or platinum. Some areas take off faster than others but over time all the great moderns are going to get hit.......
If you dont like rare moderns as a coinage class then dont spend the money on them.........but its a mistake if you like growth.
Eric >>
Stop preaching the truth Eric as I don't need more competition on eBay and at the shows !
As an aside did anyone else here who follows modern commens on eBay notice an immediate decline in prices starting the day the mint offered the 25th sets? I've watched many coins over the last two weeks close for much lower than they've been averaging. 2008-W $5 AGE for $225 (raw), 2008-W $50 plat $1270ish (raw), and many more too. Now's definitely a good time to look for this kind of stuff on the 'bay as many of the normal buyers have everything tied up in 25th sets or have simply stopped bidding for some reason.
<< <i>Supply and demand is true, but both sides of that can change.
Supply can only decrease.
Demand can move both ways.
If there is no demand than the coins sell for melt and slowly get melted, eventually the supply drops to demand. I think that is what happened with the low mintage Chinese moderns, a couple years ago you could get them for close to melt, today they sell for ten times melt. Over ten to 15 years they were destroyed and today the survivors are left with high valuations.
How long will it take with US platinum?
We probably need a better economy and more melting, maybe the burnished coins will be lost in with the bullion in enough numbers to get them melted. In 30 years the coins we think are key today may not end up the key, that has happened with many US coins. >>
I agree with Half. In regard to the plats the key may not be the one with the lowest mintage figure in the end.
<< <i>"<< It always comes down to one basic economic function: SUPPLY AND DEMAND. No demand for the Plats, even with a limited supply. >>
"BRILLIANT!"
Is it really? There was no demand for Pan Pac Slugs, Matte Proof Gold, etc for years after they went obsolete. No one wanted Jackie Robinson. It is the over looked(troubled infancy) coins that in time have the potential to become truly great. I like, collect, and write about worthy moderns in general be they silver gold or platinum. Some areas take off faster than others but over time all the great moderns are going to get hit.......
If you dont like rare moderns as a coinage class then dont spend the money on them.........but its a mistake if you like growth.
<< <i>Supply and demand is true, but both sides of that can change.
Supply can only decrease.
Demand can move both ways.
If there is no demand than the coins sell for melt and slowly get melted, eventually the supply drops to demand. I think that is what happened with the low mintage Chinese moderns, a couple years ago you could get them for close to melt, today they sell for ten times melt. Over ten to 15 years they were destroyed and today the survivors are left with high valuations.
How long will it take with US platinum?
We probably need a better economy and more melting, maybe the burnished coins will be lost in with the bullion in enough numbers to get them melted. In 30 years the coins we think are key today may not end up the key, that has happened with many US coins. >>
I agree with Half. In regard to the plats the key may not be the one with the lowest mintage figure in the end. >>
The "At a glance" instant information and comparisons made in the book are what I love. Even the little touches like having the key, lowest mintage coins in a series highlighted in red are an awesome touch.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
<< <i>Supply and demand is true, but both sides of that can change.
Supply can only decrease.
Demand can move both ways.
If there is no demand than the coins sell for melt and slowly get melted, eventually the supply drops to demand. I think that is what happened with the low mintage Chinese moderns, a couple years ago you could get them for close to melt, today they sell for ten times melt. Over ten to 15 years they were destroyed and today the survivors are left with high valuations.
How long will it take with US platinum?
We probably need a better economy and more melting, maybe the burnished coins will be lost in with the bullion in enough numbers to get them melted. In 30 years the coins we think are key today may not end up the key, that has happened with many US coins. >>
I agree with Half. In regard to the plats the key may not be the one with the lowest mintage figure in the end. >>
4 coins in a series may have roughly similar or close mintages such as the APE 2008-W Proof and uncirculated coins.
Demand may be much higher for the 1/10 and 1/4 ounce coins vs. the 1/2 and 1 ounce coins as historically there have been more buyers for the smaller less expensive coins.
Going forward dynamics may change for the 1 ounce coin as for last couple of years mint has been able to sell close to 10K of the 1 ounce coins annually.
If demand for 1 ounce coins continues strong some of the 10K buyers will be drawn to prior issues so I expect demand for the 2006-2008 one ounce coins to increase with time.
Certainly in a world of 10K mintages the 2006-2008 coins are key mintages.
No one wanted Jackie Robinson. It is the over looked(troubled infancy) coins that in time have the potential to become truly great. I like, collect, and write about worthy moderns in general be they silver gold or platinum. Some areas take off faster than others but over time all the great moderns are going to get hit.......
This "troubled infancy" concept is a good concept to understand.
I often see comments in this forum about some precious metal moderns such as, "I'm done with them", or "they are ugly", or even "they aren't coins". In some cases, it's simply not possible to financially keep pace with the Mint's output - and that causes a benign neglect in some instances. In other cases, a new issue might be ignored because of other issues that are "white hot" at the moment (i.e. the 25th ASE Anniversary Set) and anything else is just too ordinary to bother with.
In either case, I see a few "troubled infancies" out there right now - bullion issues that the Mint is having a difficult time selling in the volumes that they originally anticipated. I'm sure that you do as well.
One of the key things that you point out in your book, Eric - is that this area of numismatics has a wind at its back (denominated in $trillions) and that's not likely to change soon. The various factors of currency debasement, longterm tax implications, and low "visibility" - all of these, continue to influence my attitude toward buying new Mint issues of "collectible bullion".
Anyone who doesn't have Eric's book ought to consider getting it, sooner rather than later.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>You are so welcome SOLO. Just keep buying the rare stuff while it is young close to melt and you will do just fine. If you or anyone else that likes moderns coins ever needs any help or have a question you can get me at 770-377-3703. Modern Coin Mart Just got 500 of our moderns text in and will start sending them out with larger orders soon.
:-)
John Maben and I are working on new material to help the moderns collectors and thats why I have been hard to come by lately. I am writing every night until about 2AM. :-) >>
Awesome!!
Successful transactions with keepdachange, tizofthe, adriana, wondercoin
<< <i>John - at $1,585 spot, melt for a 4-coin set would be about $2,935.
I'd estimate the market for raw or MS-69 sets between $3,750 and $3,900 for the 2006-W Burnished Plats. Other estimates may vary. >>
Like 2manycoins2fewfund said, there's so few raw sets being offered that it's hard to gauge how much it's worth. I'd be happy if it were worth as much as you think since I've been thinking about selling it and would like to just get back what I paid for it.
I'd be happy if it were worth as much as you think since I've been thinking about selling it and would like to just get back what I paid for it.
I may have mislead you a bit. My estimates are only based on the ebay auction prices that I've tracked and don't include any fees. And as toomanycoins indicates - it's a thin market, which may not be to a seller's advantage if he's in a hurry to sell.
I have a serious number of these myself, and I'd like to see them move higher. Unfortunately, things don't always turn out the way you'd like. Still, I can count numerous other investments that have done much worse, and I'd rather have these than any number of other investment classes.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Like 2manycoins2fewfund said, there's so few raw sets being offered that it's hard to gauge how much it's worth. I'd be happy if it were worth as much as you think since I've been thinking about selling it and would like to just get back what I paid for it. >>
If prices keep rising on the ASE boxes I may sell a box or two to purchase additional plat eagles. I started working on burnished fractional sets earlier this year and still need the 2006-W $10 to complete the set. I wouldn't mind one more set if they're priced right so there are new buyers for these entering the market as I guess I'm one of them.
I hope no one minds but the following post was on another thread but I believe it belongs here............. 2manycoins2fewfunds __________________________________________________________________________________
<< Is anyone ever going to catch wind of the 2011 1 oz proof platinum coins with about 11,500 in total sales (15,000 max mintage) with no MS platinum for the year, with no 1/10, 1/4 or 1/2 oz coins for the year in either MS or proof ... meaning there are only 11,500 sold thus far of any US platinum coin for 2011 that show the year 2011 on them. Yet, they trade about 10% over melt to this day? How exciting can I get for the 100,000 mintage coins when the 12,000 mintage coins are near worthless?
(Disclaimer #1........Before I start let me say I do NOT collect Silver eagles..........if anything based on holdings you'd say I'm a platinum collector. With that disclaimer let me try to answer Wondercoins question)
(Disclaimer #2.....following discussion is for raw coins avoiding inherent confusion of FS vs. Non FS, PR69 vs PR70, PCGS vs. NGC vs ANAC) ...............................
Those 11,000 2011 platinum coins have a cost of acqusition of appox. $22 million
Entry level is over $2,000 per coin annually.
Based on these numbers we can say at most there are currently only 10K-12K active platinum collectors who have the interest and funds to invest in 1 ounce platinum collectable coins on a recurring yearly basis.
The number of collectors with interest and funds to collect multiple years and in particular collect and hold more numerous prior years AND various denominations is almost certainly less than 10K.
This explains why there has not been more of an explosive rise in price for the rarest of platinum issues with mintages below 3,000.
Even for these coins the mis-match between total active APE collectors and coins available is only 3x-4x at most.
This relatively low mis-match ratio explains why for even the rarest APEs the price is at most little more than 3-4X the base price of the coin
NOW CONSIDER SILVER EAGLES...................
Not even considering the bullion silver eagles lets just look at the annual proof eagle production numbers as a rough measure of interest.
Very little reason to hoard proof silver eagles............numbers sold likely is as good a measure of depth of ASE collecting market as is the annual Platinum proof sales ian indication of the platinum collector market.
So....what do the proof silver eagle annual sales show??
800,000 potential silver eagle collectors based on 800,000+ annual silver eagle proof sales.
Now consider 800,000 collectors vs the 30,000 1995-W coins.
That 25 to 1 mismatch helps explain why the 1995-W proof sells for $3,000...........50X the base price of a proof ASE.
For the 2011 Reverse Proof it is a 8 to 1 mismatch between available coins and collector base.
This bodes well for the 2011 reverse proof but it also explains why long term it will likely struggle beyond $1000-$1,500 per raw example.
Conclusion.........When considering entry cost, annual cost to continue a series, cost to try to complete a series and the size of collector base to various mintages, the ASE collector market has far better fundamentals than the APE collector market.
This same exercise can be applied to the First Spouse collector market where based on annual sales the true collector base (Those willing to buy every new offering) is almost certainly below 4,000-3,500.
Here the mis-match between collector base and lowest mintage is likely no more than 2 to 1.
Unless there is a very rare FS in the future or a significant expansion in FS collector base than the relative price performance of current rarer examples vs. base coins may be rather muted.
Always remember Price is not a product of mintage alone.
A rant that triggered some intospective thoughts on importance of a series collector base size in relation to mintage of rarer issues in that series and resultant influence on market price.
Comments
"Mint's intentions ..... current sales."
A Bookmark for current events.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Clawdia, my comments are based on pricing prior to today's hit on gold, which is real but I suspect temporary...
The 2007-W burnished AGE Sets seem to have been on a steady climb, and recent ebay transactions have pushed the NGC-70 ER Set and the Raw Set to up over $4,000. The only record of a PCGS-70 Set being sold was for $3,660 and it's anyone's guess how long ago that was, because I don't log in each sales date. The 2007-W burnished AGE Sets have been trending upwards consistantly in every flavor for quite awhile now.
The 1/4 oz. 2008-W burnished AGE has kept its premium and has been rangebound with a very slight upward bias for a long time. Current ebay transactions have put the price somewhere in the $1,250 to $1,350 range for MS-69 and Raw coins, and in the range of $1,450 to $1,650 for MS-70 coins. There is some variability from one sale to the next.
Individually, the 1/4 oz. and 1/2 oz. 2007-W AGEs have done well. The 1/4 ozer in MS-69 and Raw, has been sold in the $550 to $750 range and the MS-70 has sold in the $625 to $900 range - both with a slight upward bias, but both with huge swings in prices realized from one sale to the next. The 1/2 ozer has been moving up strongly until just recently. It will take a few more sales to see if this is a top, or whether the trend will continue upwards. The 1/2 ozer has sold in MS-69 from $1,300 to $1,450 and in MS-70 and Raw in the $1,450 to $1,750 range with wide variations from one sale to the next.
Today's selloff in gold will probably affect these prices and it may take a few weeks for a consolidation to reflect any new pricing. Hope this helps. >>
Thanks very much - that helps quite a bit - and makes me feel better, too. As a newbie back in 2008, I picked up some 2007-W coins without even realizing there was anything special about them. That set of 2007-W Eagles aren't graded, but are still in the box as they were sold by the Mint. By the time I bought the 2008-W $10 coins, I knew more what I was doing.
One further question, if you happen to see this - I have several slabbed MS69 2007-W $5 coins. Now, I realize I was a real idiot not to pay the ebay seller the additional $10 he was asking for MS70s that day, but would you know if these 69s are worth a premium? I only bought slabbed coins with any rarity value when I bought them for the same price as what bullion coins were going for at the time, so it seems in some cases I may have 'accidentally' made a little money, but I'm not sure if these would fall into that profitable category.
My only intentional purchases of anything other than bullion were the three 2008-W $10 coins I bought, a Prosperity Set, and a couple of fractional buffs. I too think the recent hits on gold are going to be temporary, but even if not I can't complain.
I'm also still wondering if I should pick up a Buchanan spouse (or non-spouse, rather) coin to complete my sub-set. I'm tempted, recently, for sure - tempted to sell my MS-70 Elizabeth Monroe and buy the Buchanan instead - not only would I like the complete sub-set, but Elizabeth is a bit hard on the eyes as far as I'm concerned! >>
Hi Clawdia-
Which 2008 W $10 coins did you buy? If they were the AGE Uncs. you did very, very well as they are currently the keys to the entire AGE series. >>
Sorry - late to answer - out of the loop in a major way again. Hopefully back to stay, now.
I bought the 2008 W $10 Uncs., for sure. As I said, by the time I bought those I knew a bit more about what I was doing. Also have a couple of 1/10ths in those 2008 W Uncs., but they're not as important. Wish I had more than 3 of the $10 coins, but that's better than nothing. Those and a Prosperity Set, and a 1/2 2008 Buff proof and a 1/4 Buff unc. are what I think are my best coins.
One more try at this question - I have 3 of the Spouse Liberty coins in Proof, just missing the Buchanan. Would it be worth the current cost of the Buchanan to complete the set at current valuation, in anyone's opinion? I saw last night Apmex is selling the 4 coin set for more than $6000 - and the Buchanan would be the only coin I would end up paying what seems like too much to buy . . . I'm tempted, but don't want to do anything stupid after finally managing to do a few things right!
<< <i>Saw these 2006 $50s sell on BST for $850, a little depressed about the low price but even more depressed I did not have the extra money to buy them.
"2006-W Burnished platinum $50 in OGP (two of these): **SOLD**
2006-W Burnished platinum $50 NGC MS69 Early Release (two of these): **SOLD**
2007-W Burnished platinum $50 in mint capsule: $875" >>
I bought the '06 coins. The prices on the burnished plats is just stupidly low, it's hard to find generic plat eagles for that price! These are going into storage, someday they will be appreciated for what they are.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Clawdia, my comments are based on pricing prior to today's hit on gold, which is real but I suspect temporary...
The 2007-W burnished AGE Sets seem to have been on a steady climb, and recent ebay transactions have pushed the NGC-70 ER Set and the Raw Set to up over $4,000. The only record of a PCGS-70 Set being sold was for $3,660 and it's anyone's guess how long ago that was, because I don't log in each sales date. The 2007-W burnished AGE Sets have been trending upwards consistantly in every flavor for quite awhile now.
The 1/4 oz. 2008-W burnished AGE has kept its premium and has been rangebound with a very slight upward bias for a long time. Current ebay transactions have put the price somewhere in the $1,250 to $1,350 range for MS-69 and Raw coins, and in the range of $1,450 to $1,650 for MS-70 coins. There is some variability from one sale to the next.
Individually, the 1/4 oz. and 1/2 oz. 2007-W AGEs have done well. The 1/4 ozer in MS-69 and Raw, has been sold in the $550 to $750 range and the MS-70 has sold in the $625 to $900 range - both with a slight upward bias, but both with huge swings in prices realized from one sale to the next. The 1/2 ozer has been moving up strongly until just recently. It will take a few more sales to see if this is a top, or whether the trend will continue upwards. The 1/2 ozer has sold in MS-69 from $1,300 to $1,450 and in MS-70 and Raw in the $1,450 to $1,750 range with wide variations from one sale to the next.
Today's selloff in gold will probably affect these prices and it may take a few weeks for a consolidation to reflect any new pricing. Hope this helps. >>
Thanks very much - that helps quite a bit - and makes me feel better, too. As a newbie back in 2008, I picked up some 2007-W coins without even realizing there was anything special about them. That set of 2007-W Eagles aren't graded, but are still in the box as they were sold by the Mint. By the time I bought the 2008-W $10 coins, I knew more what I was doing.
One further question, if you happen to see this - I have several slabbed MS69 2007-W $5 coins. Now, I realize I was a real idiot not to pay the ebay seller the additional $10 he was asking for MS70s that day, but would you know if these 69s are worth a premium? I only bought slabbed coins with any rarity value when I bought them for the same price as what bullion coins were going for at the time, so it seems in some cases I may have 'accidentally' made a little money, but I'm not sure if these would fall into that profitable category.
My only intentional purchases of anything other than bullion were the three 2008-W $10 coins I bought, a Prosperity Set, and a couple of fractional buffs. I too think the recent hits on gold are going to be temporary, but even if not I can't complain.
I'm also still wondering if I should pick up a Buchanan spouse (or non-spouse, rather) coin to complete my sub-set. I'm tempted, recently, for sure - tempted to sell my MS-70 Elizabeth Monroe and buy the Buchanan instead - not only would I like the complete sub-set, but Elizabeth is a bit hard on the eyes as far as I'm concerned! >>
Hi Clawdia-
Which 2008 W $10 coins did you buy? If they were the AGE Uncs. you did very, very well as they are currently the keys to the entire AGE series. >>
Sorry - late to answer - out of the loop in a major way again. Hopefully back to stay, now.
I bought the 2008 W $10 Uncs., for sure. As I said, by the time I bought those I knew a bit more about what I was doing. Also have a couple of 1/10ths in those 2008 W Uncs., but they're not as important. Wish I had more than 3 of the $10 coins, but that's better than nothing. Those and a Prosperity Set, and a 1/2 2008 Buff proof and a 1/4 Buff unc. are what I think are my best coins.
One more try at this question - I have 3 of the Spouse Liberty coins in Proof, just missing the Buchanan. Would it be worth the current cost of the Buchanan to complete the set at current valuation, in anyone's opinion? I saw last night Apmex is selling the 4 coin set for more than $6000 - and the Buchanan would be the only coin I would end up paying what seems like too much to buy . . . I'm tempted, but don't want to do anything stupid after finally managing to do a few things right! >>
Sent you a PM. Go buy the Buck.
Buying the Proof Buchanan at today's price can't get you into too much trouble. Just my opinion.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>Saw these 2006 $50s sell on BST for $850, a little depressed about the low price but even more depressed I did not have the extra money to buy them.
"2006-W Burnished platinum $50 in OGP (two of these): **SOLD**
2006-W Burnished platinum $50 NGC MS69 Early Release (two of these): **SOLD**
2007-W Burnished platinum $50 in mint capsule: $875" >>
I bought the '06 coins. The prices on the burnished plats is just stupidly low, it's hard to find generic plat eagles for that price! These are going into storage, someday they will be appreciated for what they are. >>
Good deal, Congrats!!!
SUPPLY AND DEMAND. No demand for the Plats, even with a limited supply.
"2006-W Burnished platinum $50 in OGP (two of these): **SOLD**
2006-W Burnished platinum $50 NGC MS69 Early Release (two of these): **SOLD**
2007-W Burnished platinum $50 in mint capsule: $875" >>
I bought the '06 coins. The prices on the burnished plats is just stupidly low, it's hard to find generic plat eagles for that price! These are going into storage, someday they will be appreciated for what they are.---------------------
I thought so too I bought the other two just couldn't get all four after buying the 25th sets
Anyway I just wanted to say thanks Eric as reading your book changed my entire perspective on "stacking" and has already theoretically put me way ahead of where I would have been otherwise.
:-)
John Maben and I are working on new material to help the moderns collectors and thats why I have been hard to come by lately. I am writing every night until about 2AM. :-)
Absolutely! While prices are rising rapidly on the 100K-mintage 25th Anniversary Silver Eagle sets, it's nice to remember that sub-4K-mintage Platinum Eagles are still available for a song (relatively speaking). They will eventually have their day in the sun.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
<< <i>It always comes down to one basic economic function:
SUPPLY AND DEMAND. No demand for the Plats, even with a limited supply. >>
BRILLIANT!
SUPPLY AND DEMAND. No demand for the Plats, even with a limited supply. >>
"BRILLIANT!"
Is it really? There was no demand for Pan Pac Slugs, Matte Proof Gold, etc for years after they went obsolete. No one wanted Jackie Robinson. It is the over looked(troubled infancy) coins that in time have the potential to become truly great. I like, collect, and write about worthy moderns in general be they silver gold or platinum. Some areas take off faster than others but over time all the great moderns are going to get hit.......
If you dont like rare moderns as a coinage class then dont spend the money on them.........but its a mistake if you like growth.
Eric
Supply can only decrease.
Demand can move both ways.
If there is no demand than the coins sell for melt and slowly get melted, eventually the supply drops to demand. I think that is what happened with the low mintage Chinese moderns, a couple years ago you could get them for close to melt, today they sell for ten times melt. Over ten to 15 years they were destroyed and today the survivors are left with high valuations.
How long will it take with US platinum?
We probably need a better economy and more melting, maybe the burnished coins will be lost in with the bullion in enough numbers to get them melted. In 30 years the coins we think are key today may not end up the key, that has happened with many US coins.
<< <i>Is it really? There was no demand for Pan Pac Slugs, Matte Proof Gold, etc for years after they went obsolete. No one wanted Jackie Robinson. It is the over looked(troubled infancy) coins that in time have the potential to become truly great. I like, collect, and write about worthy moderns in general be they silver gold or platinum. Some areas take off faster than others but over time all the great moderns are going to get hit.......
If you dont like rare moderns as a coinage class then dont spend the money on them.........but its a mistake if you like growth.
Eric >>
Stop preaching the truth Eric as I don't need more competition on eBay and at the shows
As an aside did anyone else here who follows modern commens on eBay notice an immediate decline in prices starting the day the mint offered the 25th sets? I've watched many coins over the last two weeks close for much lower than they've been averaging. 2008-W $5 AGE for $225 (raw), 2008-W $50 plat $1270ish (raw), and many more too. Now's definitely a good time to look for this kind of stuff on the 'bay as many of the normal buyers have everything tied up in 25th sets or have simply stopped bidding for some reason.
<< <i>Supply and demand is true, but both sides of that can change.
Supply can only decrease.
Demand can move both ways.
If there is no demand than the coins sell for melt and slowly get melted, eventually the supply drops to demand. I think that is what happened with the low mintage Chinese moderns, a couple years ago you could get them for close to melt, today they sell for ten times melt. Over ten to 15 years they were destroyed and today the survivors are left with high valuations.
How long will it take with US platinum?
We probably need a better economy and more melting, maybe the burnished coins will be lost in with the bullion in enough numbers to get them melted. In 30 years the coins we think are key today may not end up the key, that has happened with many US coins. >>
I agree with Half. In regard to the plats the key may not be the one with the lowest mintage figure in the end.
<< <i>"<< It always comes down to one basic economic function:
SUPPLY AND DEMAND. No demand for the Plats, even with a limited supply. >>
"BRILLIANT!"
Is it really? There was no demand for Pan Pac Slugs, Matte Proof Gold, etc for years after they went obsolete. No one wanted Jackie Robinson. It is the over looked(troubled infancy) coins that in time have the potential to become truly great. I like, collect, and write about worthy moderns in general be they silver gold or platinum. Some areas take off faster than others but over time all the great moderns are going to get hit.......
If you dont like rare moderns as a coinage class then dont spend the money on them.........but its a mistake if you like growth.
Eric >>
........................................
I agree with Eric
<< <i>
<< <i>Supply and demand is true, but both sides of that can change.
Supply can only decrease.
Demand can move both ways.
If there is no demand than the coins sell for melt and slowly get melted, eventually the supply drops to demand. I think that is what happened with the low mintage Chinese moderns, a couple years ago you could get them for close to melt, today they sell for ten times melt. Over ten to 15 years they were destroyed and today the survivors are left with high valuations.
How long will it take with US platinum?
We probably need a better economy and more melting, maybe the burnished coins will be lost in with the bullion in enough numbers to get them melted. In 30 years the coins we think are key today may not end up the key, that has happened with many US coins. >>
I agree with Half. In regard to the plats the key may not be the one with the lowest mintage figure in the end. >>
..................................................................................................................
And I agree with Half and Eric.
In regard to "key" coins we cannot go by published mintages alone.
Demand for the different size coins varies significantly more than published mintages vary.
Also IMO there has been more scraping of the 1 ounce coins than any other size changing the surviving populations.
I scrapped a number of 2007-W 1 and 1/2 ounce uncirculated plats.
A "key" coin by mintage and a "Key" coin based on market prices may or may not be the same.
Thanks
See the first page of this tread about half way down the page. The link is in blue.
Or you can call Modern Coin Mart and ask for one.
You can buy them off of eBay as well. I purchased a couple extra for friends and family this year for Christmas gifts
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Supply and demand is true, but both sides of that can change.
Supply can only decrease.
Demand can move both ways.
If there is no demand than the coins sell for melt and slowly get melted, eventually the supply drops to demand. I think that is what happened with the low mintage Chinese moderns, a couple years ago you could get them for close to melt, today they sell for ten times melt. Over ten to 15 years they were destroyed and today the survivors are left with high valuations.
How long will it take with US platinum?
We probably need a better economy and more melting, maybe the burnished coins will be lost in with the bullion in enough numbers to get them melted. In 30 years the coins we think are key today may not end up the key, that has happened with many US coins. >>
I agree with Half. In regard to the plats the key may not be the one with the lowest mintage figure in the end. >>
..................................................................................................................
And I agree with Half and Eric.
In regard to "key" coins we cannot go by published mintages alone.
Demand for the different size coins varies significantly more than published mintages vary.
Also IMO there has been more scraping of the 1 ounce coins than any other size changing the surviving populations.
I scrapped a number of 2007-W 1 and 1/2 ounce uncirculated plats.
A "key" coin by mintage and a "Key" coin based on market prices may or may not be the same. >>
...............................................................................................................................................................
Bottom line.........
4 coins in a series may have roughly similar or close mintages such as the APE 2008-W Proof and uncirculated coins.
Demand may be much higher for the 1/10 and 1/4 ounce coins vs. the 1/2 and 1 ounce coins as historically there have been more buyers for the smaller less expensive coins.
Going forward dynamics may change for the 1 ounce coin as for last couple of years mint has been able to sell close to 10K of the 1 ounce coins annually.
If demand for 1 ounce coins continues strong some of the 10K buyers will be drawn to prior issues so I expect demand for the 2006-2008 one ounce coins to increase with time.
Certainly in a world of 10K mintages the 2006-2008 coins are key mintages.
This "troubled infancy" concept is a good concept to understand.
I often see comments in this forum about some precious metal moderns such as, "I'm done with them", or "they are ugly", or even "they aren't coins". In some cases, it's simply not possible to financially keep pace with the Mint's output - and that causes a benign neglect in some instances. In other cases, a new issue might be ignored because of other issues that are "white hot" at the moment (i.e. the 25th ASE Anniversary Set) and anything else is just too ordinary to bother with.
In either case, I see a few "troubled infancies" out there right now - bullion issues that the Mint is having a difficult time selling in the volumes that they originally anticipated. I'm sure that you do as well.
One of the key things that you point out in your book, Eric - is that this area of numismatics has a wind at its back (denominated in $trillions) and that's not likely to change soon. The various factors of currency debasement, longterm tax implications, and low "visibility" - all of these, continue to influence my attitude toward buying new Mint issues of "collectible bullion".
Anyone who doesn't have Eric's book ought to consider getting it, sooner rather than later.
I knew it would happen.
Wondercoin
<< <i>You are so welcome SOLO. Just keep buying the rare stuff while it is young close to melt and you will do just fine. If you or anyone else that likes moderns coins ever needs any help or have a question you can get me at 770-377-3703. Modern Coin Mart Just got 500 of our moderns text in and will start sending them out with larger orders soon.
:-)
John Maben and I are working on new material to help the moderns collectors and thats why I have been hard to come by lately. I am writing every night until about 2AM. :-) >>
Awesome!!
<< <i>So how much is a raw set of 2006 W Burnished Platinum Eagles going for nowadays? Is it just worth slightly above melt? >>
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Difficult to say as so few Raw sets have been offered on true, no reserve auctions.
<< <i>Sending out the book with large orders Eric .... hmmm ... wonder who was doing that first for you.
Wondercoin
Well Mitch you are always one step ahead of the crowd :-)
John - at $1,585 spot, melt for a 4-coin set would be about $2,935.
I'd estimate the market for raw or MS-69 sets between $3,750 and $3,900 for the 2006-W Burnished Plats. Other estimates may vary.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>May I ask the name and where to buy this book?
Thanks >>
Sent ya a PM.
<< <i>John - at $1,585 spot, melt for a 4-coin set would be about $2,935.
I'd estimate the market for raw or MS-69 sets between $3,750 and $3,900 for the 2006-W Burnished Plats. Other estimates may vary. >>
Like 2manycoins2fewfund said, there's so few raw sets being offered that it's hard to gauge how much it's worth. I'd be happy if it were worth as much as you think since I've been thinking about selling it and would like to just get back what I paid for it.
I may have mislead you a bit. My estimates are only based on the ebay auction prices that I've tracked and don't include any fees. And as toomanycoins indicates - it's a thin market, which may not be to a seller's advantage if he's in a hurry to sell.
I have a serious number of these myself, and I'd like to see them move higher. Unfortunately, things don't always turn out the way you'd like. Still, I can count numerous other investments that have done much worse, and I'd rather have these than any number of other investment classes.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>If anybody still watches the old hags on Ebay, The 2008 Louisa Adams has been hot recently?
And what do you consider hot?
<< <i>Like 2manycoins2fewfund said, there's so few raw sets being offered that it's hard to gauge how much it's worth. I'd be happy if it were worth as much as you think since I've been thinking about selling it and would like to just get back what I paid for it. >>
If prices keep rising on the ASE boxes I may sell a box or two to purchase additional plat eagles. I started working on burnished fractional sets earlier this year and still need the 2006-W $10 to complete the set. I wouldn't mind one more set if they're priced right so there are new buyers for these entering the market as I guess I'm one of them.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>I'm in the mood to "spill some beans". Nah.... can't do it. I'll let Mr. Jordan continue to drop hints.
John >>
New audited numbers??? Spill it John! Spill it! Eric? Paging Dr. Eric...
<< <i>I'm in the mood to "spill some beans". Nah.... can't do it. I'll let Mr. Jordan continue to drop hints.
John >>
Inquiring minds want to know
Box of 20
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm in the mood to "spill some beans". Nah.... can't do it. I'll let Mr. Jordan continue to drop hints.
John >>
Inquiring minds want to know
Indeed PLEASE spill the beans :-)
I knew it would happen.
Eric
<< <i>
<< <i>If anybody still watches the old hags on Ebay, The 2008 Louisa Adams has been hot recently?
And what do you consider hot?
On Ebay recently there bid up to $2,600 & $2,900 MS70 FS. thats far above pcgs price guide!
2manycoins2fewfunds
__________________________________________________________________________________
<< Is anyone ever going to catch wind of the 2011 1 oz proof platinum coins with about 11,500 in total sales (15,000 max mintage) with no MS platinum for the year, with no 1/10, 1/4 or 1/2 oz coins for the year in either MS or proof ... meaning there are only 11,500 sold thus far of any US platinum coin for 2011 that show the year 2011 on them. Yet, they trade about 10% over melt to this day? How exciting can I get for the 100,000 mintage coins when the 12,000 mintage coins are near worthless?
Wondercoin
P.S. Sorry for the "rant" >>
..............................................................................................................................................................................
(Disclaimer #1........Before I start let me say I do NOT collect Silver eagles..........if anything based on holdings you'd say I'm a platinum collector. With that disclaimer let me try to answer Wondercoins question)
(Disclaimer #2.....following discussion is for raw coins avoiding inherent confusion of FS vs. Non FS, PR69 vs PR70, PCGS vs. NGC vs ANAC)
...............................
Those 11,000 2011 platinum coins have a cost of acqusition of appox. $22 million
Entry level is over $2,000 per coin annually.
Based on these numbers we can say at most there are currently only 10K-12K active platinum collectors who have the interest and funds to invest in 1 ounce platinum collectable coins on a recurring yearly basis.
The number of collectors with interest and funds to collect multiple years and in particular collect and hold more numerous prior years AND various denominations is almost certainly less than 10K.
This explains why there has not been more of an explosive rise in price for the rarest of platinum issues with mintages below 3,000.
Even for these coins the mis-match between total active APE collectors and coins available is only 3x-4x at most.
This relatively low mis-match ratio explains why for even the rarest APEs the price is at most little more than 3-4X the base price of the coin
NOW CONSIDER SILVER EAGLES...................
Not even considering the bullion silver eagles lets just look at the annual proof eagle production numbers as a rough measure of interest.
Very little reason to hoard proof silver eagles............numbers sold likely is as good a measure of depth of ASE collecting market as is the annual Platinum proof sales ian indication of the platinum collector market.
So....what do the proof silver eagle annual sales show??
800,000 potential silver eagle collectors based on 800,000+ annual silver eagle proof sales.
Now consider 800,000 collectors vs the 30,000 1995-W coins.
That 25 to 1 mismatch helps explain why the 1995-W proof sells for $3,000...........50X the base price of a proof ASE.
For the 2011 Reverse Proof it is a 8 to 1 mismatch between available coins and collector base.
This bodes well for the 2011 reverse proof but it also explains why long term it will likely struggle beyond $1000-$1,500 per raw example.
Conclusion.........When considering entry cost, annual cost to continue a series, cost to try to complete a series and the size of collector base to various mintages, the ASE collector market has far better fundamentals than the APE collector market.
This same exercise can be applied to the First Spouse collector market where based on annual sales the true collector base (Those willing to buy every new offering) is almost certainly below 4,000-3,500.
Here the mis-match between collector base and lowest mintage is likely no more than 2 to 1.
Unless there is a very rare FS in the future or a significant expansion in FS collector base than the relative price performance of current rarer examples vs. base coins may be rather muted.
Always remember Price is not a product of mintage alone.
Rather price is a product of mintage AND demand.
Wondercoin
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(I've really got to quit reading WSJ and Bloomberg.)