Yes I do honestly believe that the W is all that matters. Is that a hard concept for your pea sized brain to figure out? The win is ALL that matters no matter how it happens. A win is a win is a win. If you think anything else matters in a game your stupid. Well, you are stupid.
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
<< <i>And I talk about Arod's achievements to battle those who try to pin NY's failures as of late on him, as if HE's the cause for them not winning a world series. >>
I am not aware of one, single poster who has EVER made that claim. They may have stated the fact that he never has won a championship, but never said they haven't won one because of him. Or are you so blinded by your mancrush on A-Rod that you refuse to see this difference?
Edited to add:
<< <i>If you truly, honestly believe that you are even more an idiot than I thought. >>
Will you please stop calling other posters names or throw out attempted insults? Is it really that difficult for you not to?
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>So you think a pitcher who is 10-7 with a 5+ ERA is having a better year than a pitcher 7-5 with a 2.88 ERA?
If you truly, honestly believe that you are even more an idiot than I thought. >>
I said plain and simple....WINS are all that matter. That's it. Read what I typed, WINS are all that matter. I know it's a difficult concept to grasp as a Tampa Bay Buc and Seattle Mariner fan, here I'll go slower. WINS ARE ALL THAT MATTER.
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
I am still waiting for your list of players who have had a better 5 year run the past 5 years than Arod.
Couldn't find anyone, so you ran and hid over here? >>
Our conversation about that was in the appropriate thread. Why must you continue to derail threads, ax?
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i> I said plain and simple....WINS are all that matter. That's it. Read what I typed, WINS are all that matter. I know it's a difficult concept to grasp as a Tampa Bay Buc and Seattle Mariner fan, here I'll go slower. WINS ARE ALL THAT MATTER. >>
hahahaha
I'll ask you this. Which pitcher of my pitcher A and pitcher B scenario would you rather have on your team this year?
Whoever wins the most games. I care about simple things, who wins and who loses. It is that simple buddy.
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Ax, Can you please knock this crap off already and stop trolling from post to post trying to pick a fight wherever you go ? Dont you get it ? You are bothering everyone here. It doesnt matter what is said, who says it, or what its about. You HAVE to argue.
It doesnt make you stand out as a brave soldier who isnt afraid to voice an opinion. It is making you an annoying jerk who nobody wishes to see or hear from on here.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Ultimately Wins are the most important thing, but to evaluate which pitcher is better based on HIS number of 'wins' is a very faulty practice. That practice gets GM's in trouble, and it kills the gamblers who adhere to that thinking.
Evaluating pitchers based on wins, instead of more pertinent information, is a practice that really isn't used by successful decision makers.
The overwhelming astronomical evidence is there throughout history on why No need to re-invent the wheel on that. But sometimes a simple comment from somebody who doesn't know anything makes sense, for example....
In high school I'm dating a gymnast, and she tells one of her teammates who knows nothing about baseball that I got the win yesterday. The friend replied, "How could 'he' get the win? He isn't the only one playing. Doesn't the team get a credit for the win?"
As for winning the championship, yes that is the ultimate goal, but to say any other individual achievement doesn't matter, is a little off beat. Again, these comments are coming from Yankee fans who champion the greatness of Don Mattingly. Based on these comments, then Mattingly's accomplishments didn't mean anything either.
Mattingly himself would probably say that he would trade all of them for a WS ring, but that doesn't say his accomplishments are meaningless, nor does it to Arod's accomplishments.
Ax likes to pick fights, and contradicts himself sometimes too. He still will not recognize even one ounce of Jeter's leadership bringing a WS, but will fully adhere to TOm Brady's. They may not be equal, but it isn't 100% to 0% as he paints it. It isn't Jeter's leadership that won the titles, but that is besides the point. If Brady gets credit for it, so does Jeter, at least to some degree. It can't be both ways, just like in Mattingly and Arod.
But some of the stuff being said to refute him are way off and based very much on bias. Sports fans are the second most biased group of people on planet Earth. It is good to admit that one is bias, but even then it really doesn't put much stock into the judgements that follow.
Would anyone like to be tried by a judge who admits he is biased against your case? Then shows that he acts on that bias?
P.S. If nobody is saying that it isn't Arod's fault that the Yankees haven't won, then why bring up his poor timely hitting, or the fact that teams had better records the year after he left. That certainly hints on saying that it is his fault by bringing those points up. That like "I'm not saying, I'm just saying." One of three things are the motive it seems by saying such things...1) the people truly believe it is his fault, or 2) They want to spruce up a conversation, or 3)As faulty as it is, they are using the simplest explanatin for a complex evaluation. Other than one of those three reasons, I don't even see the point of brinnging it up then.
While I think Brady may indeed get a bit more credit than he deserves for his wins, ultimately the ball is in his hands in nearly every single play on offense.
Jeter, on the other hand (just like every other bat), gets 1 out of 9 opportunities to score runs. He gets far TOO much credit for his impact on the game.
Saying the only stat that matters for a pitcher is wins is totally absurd. A pitcher can pitch an incredible game, has his team not show up on offense, and he still take the loss (look at a dozen appearances last year for Clemens).
Does that make the pitcher less valuable or worse than a pitcher who has an all star lineup behind him? Which pitcher would you have?
Ax, there really isn't a sane argument to dispute what you are saying about a pitcher and wins...that stuff has been put to bed for decades. You are absolutley correct. I actually like that people still believe in that stuff, it made it easier to take money from them
But Ax, you have to give at least some credit to Jeter, even though it isn't to the same degree as Brady's. I think that would go a long way on this board if you relent on that.
Ax, from a neutral Yankee, non Yankee standpoint, some of your good points get lost in your anti NY writings. NY isn't the only place where players get overrated, good God no! If you didn't write negatively about every Yankee topic, it would probably be more smooth. Maybe you enjoy the conflict, and that is fine, this is a good release.
Write one thing positive about a Yankee player, and tip your cap in some fasion. The most noble thing I learned in sports is that sometimes you just have to tip your cap.
Well-said, skinpinch, I have to agree with you on that note.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Write one thing positive about a Yankee player, and tip your cap in some fasion. The most noble thing I learned in sports is that sometimes you just have to tip your cap. >>
And it can't be a back-handed compliment
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
I'll get my best nine, and you get yours!! That goes back to the origins of baseball when they referred to teams as the "Brookly Nine." We also have all experienced that in our childhood competitive years in the neighborhood, or against another neighborhood.
The fact is, the Yankees have done that better than anyone..."Here is our best nine, let's see what you got!" I don't give a rats hooey about money. The Yanks have done that better than anyone and for a very long time now. Many teams have had that same opportunity, yet nobody has come close to them in history.
I just can't humanly see how a person couldn't at least like them for it, or respect them for it, or jus tip their cap to them for it! It has to be recognized positively in some way.
The yankees have a long standing tradition of winning. Absolutely I understand and respect that.
What I cannot respect and understand are the fans who feel entitled to a world series every year. These are the fans who boo Marianio Rivera, the fans who do not simply 'expect' the best, but feel entitled to a world championship - there's a big difference.
In all fairness, I don't think you can fault the fans for expressing how they feel at a ballgame if a player fails to come through when it counts. Don't forget, these guys are making millions of dollars to play a game most of us could only dream of playing as a livelihood. So when a great player like Rivera or A-Rod gets booed, it may not be fair, but it comes with the territory. There are millions of other Joe Schmoes out there working far less glamorous jobs who endure much worse from bosses, supervisors, customers, etc., and no one thinks twice about that. It's just part of the job and we deal with it or move on. Ballplayers are the last people you should be feeling sympathetic about. And in NY at least, if you do well and come through in the clutch, when it counts, you'll be revered forever. Just look at the legacies of Joe Namath and Mark Messier, and you'll understand that.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
How many times has Rivera been the reason the yankees won? If anything, he should be the one above being booed. But he gets booed for blowing saves in *april* last year? How does that happen?
I see things like that and it makes me sick. By no means a Rivera apologist, but to see him booed by NY fans was ridiculous. It doesn't show passion, it shows childish and spoiled behavior.
That is true if you approach it from the analytical standpoint of what has this player meant to our ballclub over the years, but let's face it, most fans aren't thinking objectively after they spend upwards of $100 for a pair of box seats to a ball game. I've seen lots of great players booed in other stadiums, too. It's not a unique concept to NY. Again, I just think as a ballplayer, it's something you learn to deal with. These players have been battle-tested and have thicker skins (or should have thicker skins than you or I). And they get paid handsomely for the favor. And, truly, I think any Yankees fan will tell you that Rivera, especially, to use your example, is as beloved as any Yankees player, with the possible exception of Bernie Williams.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I do not know one single long time Yankee fan, myself included, who believes they are entitled to a world series every year. I have been a fan for long enough to live through the tough times, and deal with it quite well. This year is an example. Do I expect them to win it all this year, no. Am I upset over it, no. I have gone as far to say they wont make the playoffs this year, and that they shouldnt trade away any young talent just to cling to the hope of a title this year. There is always next year, and its not the end of the world if they dont win.
In all fairness, what I have begun to notice the past 3 or 4 years is the " newer " Yankee fans, those who have jumped on because it has been the popular thing here in NY, feeling as if the team should win every year. Many of the newer folks dont really understand the game, and have just come along since their championship run, not realizing that world series runs of 4 in 5 years dont always happen, and that they shouldnt expect that all the time. The hype, media coverage, superstar names, and legacy they have built all contribute to this feeling.
Regarding the booing, whether its Arod, Rivera, or anyone else I have to agree some of the previous posters. These athletes understand the situation they are in. They do have that thicker skin because of what they are exposed to daily. Many times you will hear them speak about being booed when the job isnt getting done, but also how great it is when they do get the job done. Its not a situation where they are saying the PC thing, its just how it is, and they fully understand it.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
As far as Yankees getting booed at home - why lump the behavior of all Yankee fans with that of the 5-10,000 drunken "fans" who boo guys like Rivera once in a great while. These same drunks exist at every sporting event, acting like tools and making it uncomfortable for the average fan to attend games. The one time I ever saw Rivera booed thats what it sounded like - some drunks voicing their displeasure over the early season Boston losses - they were also quickly drowned out with cheers at the stadium. I doubt there was even one fan sitting at home booing from his chair. If one really wants to latch on to the argument that "Rivera gets booed" I'd have to question how many Yankee games that person had actually watched in entirety...
ARod, on the other hand, deserves it. Again, those who watch every game know how many times he's come up small over the last 3 years. Most of the boos he gets are a direct result of yet another inning ending DP or strikeout, and he does get lustily cheered on the infrequent occasions when he comes through in the clutch...
Who are the Yanks targeting for their starting pitchers in the second half? I don't see them putting up much of a run without some more qualtiy pitching.
JMO, but Mark Redman (Royals) would be a fine candidate for the 4 or 5 starter role. He's available to be moved, and won't cost much....maybe a AA prospect.
I may be biased, but after watching him pitch in person a couple games, his lack of run support really cost him a couple wins.
I'd really like to see the Yanks make a push for one or two of the following: Daniel Cabrera(I know the O's don't want to get rid of this guy and deserveably so, Just wishful thinking here even though his outings since coming off the DL haven't been stellar) Greg Maddux(I'd love to see him come to the Yanks even though he's another old arm, I don't know if Chi would trade him do to his history with the club and the Brewers are one of their first options with his brother Mike Maddux as the pitching coach.) Daisuke Matsuzaka(MVP of the WBC; and is apparently trying to come to the MLB)
Although I'm doubtful that the Yanks will get one of those guys, I'm hoping they get some young arms. How? Who knows? Maybe Rod Thorn should be brought in as GM...
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
First, it's not Cashman's fault the team sucks...blame that on george. If it truly were Cashman making these moves, steinbrenner would have fired him long ago...also, still believing wins are all that matters for a pitcher?
First off the team does not suck. they are currently in 2nd place 3 games out and playing well above 500 ball. perhaps suck and mariners go hand in hand but suck and the yankees does not.
First, it's not Cashman's fault the team sucks...blame that on george. If it truly were Cashman making these moves, steinbrenner would have fired him long ago...also, still believing wins are all that matters for a pitcher? >>
Hey, the Yanks don't play in a division where currently .500 ball would get you in the playoffs(AHEM....AL West, most of the national league)
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
First, it's not Cashman's fault the team sucks... >>
yet Gemmy II will go on and on and on about all of the guys stepping it up on the M's and they sit at a VERY pedestrian 43-46 in a VERY pedestrian division. And the Yankees suck at 50-36 and only 3 games back of the red hot Red Sox all the while losing player after player to the DL. There is nobody who twists and twists and twists himself into a pretzel more than Gemmy II.
Yankee pitching? Well, considering there are just THREE AL teams with a lower staff ERA then the Yankees I would have to say that ....... no it has not sucked. It has been pretty damn good. But you know, every thumping a Yankee pitcher takes makes big news around these parts.
AL Top 5 Team ERA's
Detroit 3.46 LA Angles 4.07 Oakland 4.20 NY Yankees 4.30 Minnesota 4.36
<< <i>Yankee pitching? Well, considering there are just THREE AL teams with a lower staff ERA then the Yankees I would have to say that ....... no it has not sucked. It has been pretty damn good. But you know, every thumping a Yankee pitcher takes makes big news around these parts.
AL Top 5 Team ERA's
Detroit 3.46 LA Angles 4.07 Oakland 4.20 NY Yankees 4.30 Minnesota 4.36 >>
Why dont I see the M's in that top 5 ?
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Yankee pitching? Well, considering there are just THREE AL teams with a lower staff ERA then the Yankees I would have to say that ....... no it has not sucked. It has been pretty damn good. But you know, every thumping a Yankee pitcher takes makes big news around these parts.
AL Top 5 Team ERA's
Detroit 3.46 LA Angles 4.07 Oakland 4.20 NY Yankees 4.30 Minnesota 4.36 >>
Why dont I see the M's in that top 5 ? >>
Because they suck? I figure a team with the starting outfield out, the highest paid player not playing up to his career averages and still being 3 games out from leading the divison far from sucking. Maybe we just don;t see Ax's logic lol, maybe he's just not logical.
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And this is no knock on the Mets, because they are having a great season, but all the rave has been about them this year, yet the Yankees, in a stronger division in a stronger league are only 1 1/2 games behind them at 50-36 vs. 53-36 for the Mets.
I dont think the Yanks will make the postseason this year after all the injuries, but they hardly suck. Yet we will still hear about it endlessly once again from Ax, no matter what is pointed out. Yet we will continue to hear how strong the M's look and how promising their season is despite being 8 1/2 games worse than the Yankees in a far weaker division.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
the ironic thing about these haters is that THEY expect the Yankees to be perfect. Even more then Yankee fans do. Being a Yankee hater in the sports fan world is somewhat of a cult. They all think they are the do-gooders looking out for what is best for everyone else. In the process they fail to realize how absurd they are alot of times.
excellent point Dan. You are right on the mark. If the Yankees are having just a " good " season and not one of their dominating ones we usually just roll with it and enjoy either way. It is most certainly the haters who expect them to be 110-52 every year and are the first to talk when they arent.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Yankee pitching? Well, considering there are just THREE AL teams with a lower staff ERA then the Yankees I would have to say that ....... no it has not sucked. It has been pretty damn good. But you know, every thumping a Yankee pitcher takes makes big news around these parts.
AL Top 5 Team ERA's
Detroit 3.46 LA Angles 4.07 Oakland 4.20 NY Yankees 4.30 Minnesota 4.36 >>
Why dont I see the M's in that top 5 ? >>
Chicago 4.44 Seattle 4.45
Yes, the yankees and their incredible payroll have a .15 ERA advantage over the M's.
Good of you not to include the whole list, way to completely skew the facts.
No skew, fact is NY is in the Top 5 in AL ERA. Seattle isn't.
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Typical response. It was a very clear point. The top 5 in E.R.A. The list was given, the Yankees were on it.
Exactly which portion of that top 5 list was skewed ? Has the definition of 5 changed to become 7 ? 8 perhaps ? If I am wrong or have missed something would someone let me know, otherwise it appears to be a case of being argumentative just for the sake of it once again.
Maybe thats where the confusion with Arod this season is coming from as well. Apparently all the stats in which Arod is way down on the list are being confused as top 5. Maybe his 85th place in batting average is now 5th in the new math. Maybe his 24th in H.R.'s is now 4th in the new math. Perhaps his 18th in R.B.I's is now 3rd place, while his 10th place out of 11 regular 3rd basemen in fielding PCT. has now become 2nd place in this new fangled mathamatics Ax has discovered.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
<< <i>Typical response. It was a very clear point. The top 5 in E.R.A. The list was given, the Yankees were on it.
Exactly which portion of that top 5 list was skewed ? Has the definition of 5 changed to become 7 ? 8 perhaps ? If I am wrong or have missed something would someone let me know, otherwise it appears to be a case of being argumentative just for the sake of it once again.
Maybe thats where the confusion with Arod this season is coming from as well. Apparently all the stats in which Arod is way down on the list are being confused as top 5. Maybe his 85th place in batting average is now 5th in the new math. Maybe his 24th in H.R.'s is now 4th in the new math. Perhaps his 18th in R.B.I's is now 3rd place, while his 10th place out of 11 regular 3rd basemen in fielding PCT. has now become 2nd place in this new fangled mathamatics Ax has discovered. >>
Pfht... It's pretty obvious that all you are doing is skewing the numbers to your favor.
Didn't you get that memo?
When you mention the top 5, you have to include everyone in the top 5, even though statistically they are not.
Duh.
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Ponson is gahbage. That's outside of his personal issues.
Collecting; Mark Mulder rookies Chipper Jones rookies Orlando Cabrera rookies Lawrence Taylor Sam Huff Lavar Arrington NY Giants NY Yankees NJ Nets NJ Devils 1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
In fairness though, you guys are jumping on Axtell unfairly - and trumpeting a borderline stat a bit too highly. The Yanks, at 4.30, are barely better than the Mariners at 4.45 - this despite a tremendous advantage in payroll and resources which should have the Yanks sitting well ahead of the pack. The Tigers, at 3.46, are nearly a full run per game lower than the Yanks - everyone after them is kind of bunched together to the point where saying "we are better than you" is almost meaningless. I'm using the numbers provided here, I have no idea if they are accurate or not. And, this has nothing to do with the Red Sox BTW - but you guys gang up on Axtell all the time, and this time it looks really ridiculous.
<< <i>In fairness though, you guys are jumping on Axtell unfairly - and trumpeting a borderline stat a bit too highly. The Yanks, at 4.30, are barely better than the Mariners at 4.45 - this despite a tremendous advantage in payroll and resources which should have the Yanks sitting well ahead of the pack. The Tigers, at 3.46, are nearly a full run per game lower than the Yanks - everyone after them is kind of bunched together to the point where saying "we are better than you" is almost meaningless. I'm using the numbers provided here, I have no idea if they are accurate or not. And, this has nothing to do with the Red Sox BTW - but you guys gang up on Axtell all the time, and this time it looks really ridiculous. >>
I think you taking the time and effort to write a full paragraph on this is what is ridiculous. The TOP 5 IS THE TOP 5. What part of that is unclear ? It was given, and Ax proceeded to say the facts were skewed. The facts are, the yankees were in the top 5. The point was not, which teams are close to the top 5, or how close the yanks staff was to the M's. It was the top 5, period.
"The other teams could make trouble for us if they win." -- Yogi Berra
Comments
Mark Mulder rookies
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1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
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If you truly, honestly believe that you are even more an idiot than I thought.
<< <i>And I talk about Arod's achievements to battle those who try to pin NY's failures as of late on him, as if HE's the cause for them not winning a world series. >>
I am not aware of one, single poster who has EVER made that claim. They may have stated the fact that he never has won a championship, but never said they haven't won one because of him. Or are you so blinded by your mancrush on A-Rod that you refuse to see this difference?
Edited to add:
<< <i>If you truly, honestly believe that you are even more an idiot than I thought. >>
Will you please stop calling other posters names or throw out attempted insults? Is it really that difficult for you not to?
I am still waiting for your list of players who have had a better 5 year run the past 5 years than Arod.
Couldn't find anyone, so you ran and hid over here?
<< <i>So you think a pitcher who is 10-7 with a 5+ ERA is having a better year than a pitcher 7-5 with a 2.88 ERA?
If you truly, honestly believe that you are even more an idiot than I thought. >>
I said plain and simple....WINS are all that matter. That's it. Read what I typed, WINS are all that matter. I know it's a difficult concept to grasp as a Tampa Bay Buc and Seattle Mariner fan, here I'll go slower. WINS ARE ALL THAT MATTER.
Mark Mulder rookies
Chipper Jones rookies
Orlando Cabrera rookies
Lawrence Taylor
Sam Huff
Lavar Arrington
NY Giants
NY Yankees
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
GregM13
VintageJeff
<< <i>stown-
I am still waiting for your list of players who have had a better 5 year run the past 5 years than Arod.
Couldn't find anyone, so you ran and hid over here? >>
Our conversation about that was in the appropriate thread. Why must you continue to derail threads, ax?
<< <i>
I said plain and simple....WINS are all that matter. That's it. Read what I typed, WINS are all that matter. I know it's a difficult concept to grasp as a Tampa Bay Buc and Seattle Mariner fan, here I'll go slower. WINS ARE ALL THAT MATTER. >>
hahahaha
I'll ask you this. Which pitcher of my pitcher A and pitcher B scenario would you rather have on your team this year?
Mark Mulder rookies
Chipper Jones rookies
Orlando Cabrera rookies
Lawrence Taylor
Sam Huff
Lavar Arrington
NY Giants
NY Yankees
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
GregM13
VintageJeff
<< <i>Whoever wins the most games. I care about simple things, who wins and who loses. It is that simple buddy. >>
Perhaps to a simpleton it is.
but a pitcher's win/loss record is as much an indicator of his teams hitting ability as it is their ability to pitch.
ERA is the single most effective tool to determine a pitcher's effectiveness.
Too bad a dope like you can't understand.
It doesnt make you stand out as a brave soldier who isnt afraid to voice an opinion. It is making you an annoying jerk who nobody wishes to see or hear from on here.
-- Yogi Berra
Evaluating pitchers based on wins, instead of more pertinent information, is a practice that really isn't used by successful decision makers.
The overwhelming astronomical evidence is there throughout history on why No need to re-invent the wheel on that. But sometimes a simple comment from somebody who doesn't know anything makes sense, for example....
In high school I'm dating a gymnast, and she tells one of her teammates who knows nothing about baseball that I got the win yesterday. The friend replied, "How could 'he' get the win? He isn't the only one playing. Doesn't the team get a credit for the win?"
As for winning the championship, yes that is the ultimate goal, but to say any other individual achievement doesn't matter, is a little off beat. Again, these comments are coming from Yankee fans who champion the greatness of Don Mattingly. Based on these comments, then Mattingly's accomplishments didn't mean anything either.
Mattingly himself would probably say that he would trade all of them for a WS ring, but that doesn't say his accomplishments are meaningless, nor does it to Arod's accomplishments.
Ax likes to pick fights, and contradicts himself sometimes too. He still will not recognize even one ounce of Jeter's leadership bringing a WS, but will fully adhere to TOm Brady's. They may not be equal, but it isn't 100% to 0% as he paints it. It isn't Jeter's leadership that won the titles, but that is besides the point. If Brady gets credit for it, so does Jeter, at least to some degree. It can't be both ways, just like in Mattingly and Arod.
But some of the stuff being said to refute him are way off and based very much on bias. Sports fans are the second most biased group of people on planet Earth. It is good to admit that one is bias, but even then it really doesn't put much stock into the judgements that follow.
Would anyone like to be tried by a judge who admits he is biased against your case? Then shows that he acts on that bias?
P.S. If nobody is saying that it isn't Arod's fault that the Yankees haven't won, then why bring up his poor timely hitting, or the fact that teams had better records the year after he left. That certainly hints on saying that it is his fault by bringing those points up. That like "I'm not saying, I'm just saying." One of three things are the motive it seems by saying such things...1) the people truly believe it is his fault, or 2) They want to spruce up a conversation, or 3)As faulty as it is, they are using the simplest explanatin for a complex evaluation. Other than one of those three reasons, I don't even see the point of brinnging it up then.
Jeter, on the other hand (just like every other bat), gets 1 out of 9 opportunities to score runs. He gets far TOO much credit for his impact on the game.
Saying the only stat that matters for a pitcher is wins is totally absurd. A pitcher can pitch an incredible game, has his team not show up on offense, and he still take the loss (look at a dozen appearances last year for Clemens).
Does that make the pitcher less valuable or worse than a pitcher who has an all star lineup behind him? Which pitcher would you have?
But Ax, you have to give at least some credit to Jeter, even though it isn't to the same degree as Brady's. I think that would go a long way on this board if you relent on that.
Ax, from a neutral Yankee, non Yankee standpoint, some of your good points get lost in your anti NY writings. NY isn't the only place where players get overrated, good God no! If you didn't write negatively about every Yankee topic, it would probably be more smooth. Maybe you enjoy the conflict, and that is fine, this is a good release.
Write one thing positive about a Yankee player, and tip your cap in some fasion. The most noble thing I learned in sports is that sometimes you just have to tip your cap.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Write one thing positive about a Yankee player, and tip your cap in some fasion. The most noble thing I learned in sports is that sometimes you just have to tip your cap. >>
And it can't be a back-handed compliment
"Brookly Nine." We also have all experienced that in our childhood competitive years in the neighborhood, or against another neighborhood.
The fact is, the Yankees have done that better than anyone..."Here is our best nine, let's see what you got!" I don't give a rats hooey about money. The Yanks have done that better than anyone and for a very long time now. Many teams have had that same opportunity, yet nobody has come close to them in history.
I just can't humanly see how a person couldn't at least like them for it, or respect them for it, or jus tip their cap to them for it! It has to be recognized positively in some way.
This is my compliment to the Yanks.
What I cannot respect and understand are the fans who feel entitled to a world series every year. These are the fans who boo Marianio Rivera, the fans who do not simply 'expect' the best, but feel entitled to a world championship - there's a big difference.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
How many times has Rivera been the reason the yankees won? If anything, he should be the one above being booed. But he gets booed for blowing saves in *april* last year? How does that happen?
I see things like that and it makes me sick. By no means a Rivera apologist, but to see him booed by NY fans was ridiculous. It doesn't show passion, it shows childish and spoiled behavior.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
In all fairness, what I have begun to notice the past 3 or 4 years is the " newer " Yankee fans, those who have jumped on because it has been the popular thing here in NY, feeling as if the team should win every year. Many of the newer folks dont really understand the game, and have just come along since their championship run, not realizing that world series runs of 4 in 5 years dont always happen, and that they shouldnt expect that all the time. The hype, media coverage, superstar names, and legacy they have built all contribute to this feeling.
Regarding the booing, whether its Arod, Rivera, or anyone else I have to agree some of the previous posters. These athletes understand the situation they are in. They do have that thicker skin because of what they are exposed to daily. Many times you will hear them speak about being booed when the job isnt getting done, but also how great it is when they do get the job done. Its not a situation where they are saying the PC thing, its just how it is, and they fully understand it.
-- Yogi Berra
ARod, on the other hand, deserves it. Again, those who watch every game know how many times he's come up small over the last 3 years. Most of the boos he gets are a direct result of yet another inning ending DP or strikeout, and he does get lustily cheered on the infrequent occasions when he comes through in the clutch...
Who are the Yanks targeting for their starting pitchers in the second half? I don't see them putting up much of a run without some more qualtiy pitching.
JMO, but Mark Redman (Royals) would be a fine candidate for the 4 or 5 starter role. He's available to be moved, and won't cost much....maybe a AA prospect.
I may be biased, but after watching him pitch in person a couple games, his lack of run support really cost him a couple wins.
Daniel Cabrera(I know the O's don't want to get rid of this guy and deserveably so, Just wishful thinking here even though his outings since coming off the DL haven't been stellar)
Greg Maddux(I'd love to see him come to the Yanks even though he's another old arm, I don't know if Chi would trade him do to his history with the club and the Brewers are one of their first options with his brother Mike Maddux as the pitching coach.)
Daisuke Matsuzaka(MVP of the WBC; and is apparently trying to come to the MLB)
Although I'm doubtful that the Yanks will get one of those guys, I'm hoping they get some young arms. How? Who knows? Maybe Rod Thorn should be brought in as GM...
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First, it's not Cashman's fault the team sucks...blame that on george. If it truly were Cashman making these moves, steinbrenner would have fired him long ago...also, still believing wins are all that matters for a pitcher?
Steve
The Yankees are 50-36 and are 6 games out of a wild card spot in the A.L. while the Braves are 40-49 and 6 games out of the wild card in the N.L.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>topps-
First, it's not Cashman's fault the team sucks...blame that on george. If it truly were Cashman making these moves, steinbrenner would have fired him long ago...also, still believing wins are all that matters for a pitcher? >>
Hey, the Yanks don't play in a division where currently .500 ball would get you in the playoffs(AHEM....AL West, most of the national league)
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<< <i>topps-
First, it's not Cashman's fault the team sucks... >>
yet Gemmy II will go on and on and on about all of the guys stepping it up on the M's and they sit at a VERY pedestrian 43-46 in a VERY pedestrian division. And the Yankees suck at 50-36 and only 3 games back of the red hot Red Sox all the while losing player after player to the DL. There is nobody who twists and twists and twists himself into a pretzel more than Gemmy II.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
The entire starting outfield is out on injury.
I say the team is headed for a BIG disappointing second half.
AL Top 5 Team ERA's
Detroit 3.46
LA Angles 4.07
Oakland 4.20
NY Yankees 4.30
Minnesota 4.36
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>Yankee pitching? Well, considering there are just THREE AL teams with a lower staff ERA then the Yankees I would have to say that ....... no it has not sucked. It has been pretty damn good. But you know, every thumping a Yankee pitcher takes makes big news around these parts.
AL Top 5 Team ERA's
Detroit 3.46
LA Angles 4.07
Oakland 4.20
NY Yankees 4.30
Minnesota 4.36 >>
Why dont I see the M's in that top 5 ?
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>
<< <i>Yankee pitching? Well, considering there are just THREE AL teams with a lower staff ERA then the Yankees I would have to say that ....... no it has not sucked. It has been pretty damn good. But you know, every thumping a Yankee pitcher takes makes big news around these parts.
AL Top 5 Team ERA's
Detroit 3.46
LA Angles 4.07
Oakland 4.20
NY Yankees 4.30
Minnesota 4.36 >>
Why dont I see the M's in that top 5 ? >>
Because they suck? I figure a team with the starting outfield out, the highest paid player not playing up to his career averages and still being 3 games out from leading the divison far from sucking. Maybe we just don;t see Ax's logic lol, maybe he's just not logical.
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I dont think the Yanks will make the postseason this year after all the injuries, but they hardly suck. Yet we will still hear about it endlessly once again from Ax, no matter what is pointed out. Yet we will continue to hear how strong the M's look and how promising their season is despite being 8 1/2 games worse than the Yankees in a far weaker division.
-- Yogi Berra
the ironic thing about these haters is that THEY expect the Yankees to be perfect. Even more then Yankee fans do. Being a Yankee hater in the sports fan world is somewhat of a cult. They all think they are the do-gooders looking out for what is best for everyone else. In the process they fail to realize how absurd they are alot of times.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>
<< <i>Yankee pitching? Well, considering there are just THREE AL teams with a lower staff ERA then the Yankees I would have to say that ....... no it has not sucked. It has been pretty damn good. But you know, every thumping a Yankee pitcher takes makes big news around these parts.
AL Top 5 Team ERA's
Detroit 3.46
LA Angles 4.07
Oakland 4.20
NY Yankees 4.30
Minnesota 4.36 >>
Why dont I see the M's in that top 5 ? >>
Chicago 4.44
Seattle 4.45
Yes, the yankees and their incredible payroll have a .15 ERA advantage over the M's.
Good of you not to include the whole list, way to completely skew the facts.
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i posted a top 5. No skewing there. If your team isn't there then they are NOT in the top 5.
Now, what is "skewing" the facts is blaring out loud how much the Yankee pitching sucks ..... when IN FACT you have been shown otherwise
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Exactly which portion of that top 5 list was skewed ? Has the definition of 5 changed to become 7 ? 8 perhaps ? If I am wrong or have missed something would someone let me know, otherwise it appears to be a case of being argumentative just for the sake of it once again.
Maybe thats where the confusion with Arod this season is coming from as well. Apparently all the stats in which Arod is way down on the list are being confused as top 5. Maybe his 85th place in batting average is now 5th in the new math. Maybe his 24th in H.R.'s is now 4th in the new math. Perhaps his 18th in R.B.I's is now 3rd place, while his 10th place out of 11 regular 3rd basemen in fielding PCT. has now become 2nd place in this new fangled mathamatics Ax has discovered.
-- Yogi Berra
<< <i>they are currently in 2nd place 3 games out and playing well above 500 ball. >>
Wow, didn't know the outlook was so dismal.
Excuse me while I slit my wrists.
<< <i>Typical response. It was a very clear point. The top 5 in E.R.A. The list was given, the Yankees were on it.
Exactly which portion of that top 5 list was skewed ? Has the definition of 5 changed to become 7 ? 8 perhaps ? If I am wrong or have missed something would someone let me know, otherwise it appears to be a case of being argumentative just for the sake of it once again.
Maybe thats where the confusion with Arod this season is coming from as well. Apparently all the stats in which Arod is way down on the list are being confused as top 5. Maybe his 85th place in batting average is now 5th in the new math. Maybe his 24th in H.R.'s is now 4th in the new math. Perhaps his 18th in R.B.I's is now 3rd place, while his 10th place out of 11 regular 3rd basemen in fielding PCT. has now become 2nd place in this new fangled mathamatics Ax has discovered. >>
Pfht... It's pretty obvious that all you are doing is skewing the numbers to your favor.
Didn't you get that memo?
When you mention the top 5, you have to include everyone in the top 5, even though statistically they are not.
Duh.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>The Yankees just picked up the fat a$$ drunk Sidney Ponson off of the scrap heap to give Torre more options at the back of the rotation. >>
Cheap pick up for them, but I think they are downplaying the character issues there. Just hope he has fixed what was messed up in his life...
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
-- Yogi Berra
Mark Mulder rookies
Chipper Jones rookies
Orlando Cabrera rookies
Lawrence Taylor
Sam Huff
Lavar Arrington
NY Giants
NY Yankees
NJ Nets
NJ Devils
1950s-1960s Topps NY Giants Team cards
Looking for Topps rookies as well.
References:
GregM13
VintageJeff
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>In fairness though, you guys are jumping on Axtell unfairly - and trumpeting a borderline stat a bit too highly. The Yanks, at 4.30, are barely better than the Mariners at 4.45 - this despite a tremendous advantage in payroll and resources which should have the Yanks sitting well ahead of the pack. The Tigers, at 3.46, are nearly a full run per game lower than the Yanks - everyone after them is kind of bunched together to the point where saying "we are better than you" is almost meaningless. I'm using the numbers provided here, I have no idea if they are accurate or not. And, this has nothing to do with the Red Sox BTW - but you guys gang up on Axtell all the time, and this time it looks really ridiculous. >>
I think you taking the time and effort to write a full paragraph on this is what is ridiculous. The TOP 5 IS THE TOP 5. What part of that is unclear ? It was given, and Ax proceeded to say the facts were skewed. The facts are, the yankees were in the top 5. The point was not, which teams are close to the top 5, or how close the yanks staff was to the M's. It was the top 5, period.
-- Yogi Berra