Ultimately the market (we as collectors) decides what is acceptable. Premiums increase when there are more collectors searching for coins with a certain "look" or those coins are in short supply. Some collectors like toning, others do not. The only problem I see is when sellers try to deceive buyers by misrepresenting coins as something they are not. This could be due to lack of knowledge or deceitful intent.
I have an 1884 CC GSA Morgan with a swath of cobalt blue toning in the upper reverse field between 12:00 and 3:00. Most likely that part of the coin was touching the mint bag for generations.
You rarely see attractively toned SLQs and Liberty Nickels. That hasn't changed over the years.
But, you see far more colorful Unc. Morgans now than 30 years ago. Ditto re Unc. Capped Bust Halves since 2003. These coins just didn't magically appear one day.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
@ElmerFusterpuck said:
I've heard lots of wannabe 'chemists' talk about how they can make a monster Morgan toner within their 'lab'. Not the crazy ASE or blue cent nonsense, I'm talking about ones that would match the looks of the top coins in the old Sunnywood collection. I have yet to see any examples that convince me that they are successful at duplicating it and no one can seem to post pictures of any either. As for the other denominations, there are some deceptive tones out there that can fool quite a few people (including the grading services), that can be a minefield at times.
Seriously what scenario do you think would be required for you to see one single example of a fake toned monster coin? What opportunity could you, even theoretically, have had even if these AT coins were everywhere?
It's the nature of the artificial toning business to make large sums of money on the coins themselves. The worst possible scenario, the collapse of the entire toned coin market, would be if someone demonstrated a monster AT coin going from the lab into a slab conclusively.
Magicians kept to this code for hundreds of years until the rewards of mass media finally outweighed the benefits of secrecy. Why do you think it's any different for coin magic?
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
@Iwog said:
It's really not that complicated. What your calling nature is just the oxidation of silver metal by sulfur dioxide. The pretty colors and rainbow hues on a coin's surface is caused by a gradient of oxidation which will cause some zones to reflect certain colors more strongly than others.
To nitpick, the toning is actually a layer of silver sulfide, with no oxygen in the mix. (It is still, to a chemist, 'oxidation' though.) The colors result, from light reflecting off of both the upper part of the corrosion layer (the silver sulfide) and the lower part (the silver coin itself), and the light either cancels itself out or enhances itself, depending on the relationship between the thickness of the corrosion/toning layer and the wavelength of each color of light.
@Iwog And I'm assuming we didn't land on the moon. There's always nuggets of evidence to frame anything how you want but reality always wins. In this case the reality is much less of an issue than you are making it seem.
@Thunderproof said: @Iwog And I'm assuming we didn't land on the moon. There's always nuggets of evidence to frame anything how you want but reality always wins. In this case the reality is much less of an issue than you are making it seem.
The problem with the whole AT versus NT debate is that it's not a debate. It's a lot of people saying the market is secure because experts can say they can tell the difference (without proof) and a lot of other people saying artificial toning is common and a lot of those coins are in slabs. (again without proof because it would ruin their industry)
So I'm approaching it from a different standpoint. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that monster toned coins went from being a rare oddity in the 1970s to ridiculously common in the early 2000s. Furthermore I have a LOT, maybe hundreds, of old time collectors who have either confessed to dipping every single uncirculated coin they ever owned or that they refused to even look at "dirty" coins back in the 1960s. Furthermore they said that was simply the way it was done back then and I have no reason to doubt them.
So my final argument is this. The toned coin market will always be defended tooth and nail because the amount of money both risked and profited is massive. Even if every single coin owned by every single collector turned out to be AT, every dealer would swear up and down they were natural. It would be like a Christian admitting that maybe Jesus didn't actually exist. It would be inconceivable. Therefore while I appreciate the many opinions on this subject from both sides, and I do understand that NT coins are sometimes uncovered in original packaging and probably will be forever, there's something else going on and the bias to defend it is obvious.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
I don't remember who posted them, but a few members posted pictures of coins that they had toned through the slabs. Anyone remember who and can pull one up (if they didn't get zapped)?
Also I thought Weimar White had publicly demonstrated that he could copy any toning.
FYI, I do like toners, mostly classic bust halves, etc.
Sounds more like a rant of someone who wants to play but can't. Keep pumping out those "AT" monster toned textile burlap bag toners all day and I will happily buy them all at a premium.... Because I like them and I can.
@Thunderproof said: @Iwog And I'm assuming we didn't land on the moon. There's always nuggets of evidence to frame anything how you want but reality always wins. In this case the reality is much less of an issue than you are making it seem.
The problem with the whole AT versus NT debate is that it's not a debate. It's a lot of people saying the market is secure because experts can say they can tell the difference (without proof) and a lot of other people saying artificial toning is common and a lot of those coins are in slabs. (again without proof because it would ruin their industry)
So I'm approaching it from a different standpoint. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that monster toned coins went from being a rare oddity in the 1970s to ridiculously common in the early 2000s. Furthermore I have a LOT, maybe hundreds, of old time collectors who have either confessed to dipping every single uncirculated coin they ever owned or that they refused to even look at "dirty" coins back in the 1960s. Furthermore they said that was simply the way it was done back then and I have no reason to doubt them.
So my final argument is this. The toned coin market will always be defended tooth and nail because the amount of money both risked and profited is massive. Even if every single coin owned by every single collector turned out to be AT, every dealer would swear up and down they were natural. It would be like a Christian admitting that maybe Jesus didn't actually exist. It would be inconceivable. Therefore while I appreciate the many opinions on this subject from both sides, and I do understand that NT coins are sometimes uncovered in original packaging and probably will be forever, there's something else going on and the bias to defend it is obvious.
Literally every single piece of evidence you have posted is anecdotal. You are trying very hard to draw facts from your personal anecdotes. That is not to say your conclusions aren't possible. There are many factors involved that have already been discussed (namely market interest and the proliferation of the internet) that can give the perception that "there's something else going on" when you don't acknowledge that those factors exist.
@crazyhounddog said:
Personally I can not understand how a coin that's over a hundred years old could possibly still be white. Just like antique dealers and collectors will tell you that if it does not have some sort of undisturbed patina it been ruined. Same with coins. There's no freaking way that a coin from the 1800's are still blast white without some sort of help.
To each their own. Do whatever floats your boat.
Too many gem seated coin hoards that came to the light from the 1970's to 2000's prove to us that these can stay white if stored correctly. Jim Halperin/NERCG's couple dozen gem 1860-0 half dimes all gleaming white in the mid-1970's. Any number of hoards of the low mintage 1979-1890 seated dimes, quarters, and halves. One coin I've followed since March 1975 is the James Stack 1867-s quarter. It's still 85% white today along with interesting black rims...not a typical trait of dipped coins where golden brown hues abound. It hasn't changed one bit in 40+ years since I first saw it. I doubt this coin has ever been dipped or played with in any way. The skin is still very crusty and thick. For the 18 years I owned it, it spent several of those years in a mylar flip. From 1975-1986 it was not in TPG plastic. Had the coin got even a little less exposure over the 108 years prior to 1975, it could have been 90-95% white today. Considering that 1879-1882 s Morgans have survived in gem blast white condition by the tens or hundreds of thousands, it's not much of a stretch to figure a coin from the late 1850's to mid-1870's could have survived blast white as well if just stacked along with other coins and kept mostly sealed from the environment.
While most "white" 19th century coins remaining today are the result of dipping(s), there's a very small 1-5% contingent of them (not including Morgan dollars) that are blast white, and totally original....even if most people just assume they "must have" been dipped. Consider the bags of 1860-0 seated dollars that were dispersed in the 1960's...mostly blast white. I would think some are still blast white and not been dipped since they were released.
@ghigh said:
I don't think I've seen a person break every rule 1-10 and not get banned. Impressive.
I hope that isn't directed at me. I have no intention of breaking the rules I just think it's important to bring the other side of the table to the OP which is that there is a lot unknown (which he has said previously) that may prove the issue being discussed isn't much of an issue. Though I do think it is becoming a bigger issue as time goes on as greed/counterfeiting/technology/etc becomes more and more efficient and commonplace.
A single seller on ebay. Coincidence that ALL of the toned proofs have the same colors regardless of the date or denomination? BTW, these are ALL in straight graded PCGS holders. Just one of many examples on Ebay right now.
wow....delusional writer at best. some people like dipped white and some love original color. the toned market is soley driven by demand and what people will pay-not hype. to look at a monster toned coin is like looking at work of art to some. its a personal preference.
only problem, the artists have become too good. the old saying among dealers was "pay for good work". today there is a little too much of it when there should not be. still if its that good and even the pros can't tell......
a perfect thread for rr-he can talk about the past.
Caddyshack, look around you, those coins from the past, are still here today, and will be around tomorrow. I know more about that 1867-s quarter than the buyer who currently owns it. I owned it longer than anyone since James Stack and the person who kept the pedigree lineage documented. That makes their past, present, and future all merge together. But, if you can enlighten us about the future of these coins, please do so. The rest of us around here can only analyze the "past" as that's all we have to go on. The coins that sold at 2017 FUN show are now in the past....along with James Stack, Norweb, Eliasberg, Pittman, Newman, Gardner, and soon to join them.... Pogue. All apparent "has beens"....being in the past.
@caddyshack said:
wow....delusional writer at best. some people like dipped white and some love original color. the toned market is soley driven by demand and what people will pay-not hype. to look at a monster toned coin is like looking at work of art to some. its a personal preference.
only problem, the artists have become too good. the old saying among dealers was "pay for good work". today there is a little too much of it when there should not be. still if its that good and even the pros can't tell......
a perfect thread for rr-he can talk about the past.
Toned coin market is more like buy a blast white coin for 20 bucks , toss it in a frying pan , then list on ebay , add a dash of shill bidders and laugh all the way to the bank.
@bolivarshagnasty said:
A single seller on ebay. Coincidence that ALL of the toned proofs have the same colors regardless of the date or denomination? BTW, these are ALL in straight graded PCGS holders. Just one of many examples on Ebay right now.
PCGS is very lenient on modern toners.
It shouldnt come as a shock to anyone that there are AT coins in top TPG plastic. No different than there are over graded coins in top TPG plastic as well as coins that are mis-attributed. Mistakes happen.
This Seller has been successfully getting his coins graded for over 2 years. These are not mistakes. They are high quality artificially toned coins that are fooling the PCGS graders.
@bolivarshagnasty said:
New offering on the Bay. BIN for a mere 389.95. Do the reverse toning and colors look familiar??
All those ebay toners you have posted are perfect guinea pigs , they are nearly worthless coins so there is very little downside to doctoring them up. A brown box ike won't even sell for melt nowadays , if you have a stack of them you might as well work them over.
@Iwog said:
How long until everyone has all the toned coins they want and the market goes away? How long until everyone is left holding that $300 Lady Di Beanie Baby and suddenly realize there aren't any buyers left?
14 years later, the toner market is strong as ever.
I was following this one recently. It had an estimate of $1500-$2000 and sold for $4,465!
For every colorful lustrous coin that sells for multiples of bid, there are a thousand oxidized coins that can't even make the minimum or the reserve. You're talking about the exceptions, not the rule.
You're right here of course. Then again, I like exceptions, not the rule
I would not purchase those coins without seeing them in hand. TruViews of modern proofs sometimes are misleading. In hand, the 58 proof dime likely looks different.
"You keep your 1804 dollar and 1822 half eagle -- give me rainbow roosies in MS68." rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
@bolivarshagnasty said:
This Seller has been successfully getting his coins graded for over 2 years. These are not mistakes. They are high quality artificially toned coins that are fooling the PCGS graders.
I think its been a lot longer than 2 yrs if its the person who I think it is. And by mistake, I meant by PCGS. But by now, they are Market Acceptable, or at least have been made so by the plastic.
I'm so sorry.. I guess all my champagne toned coins are the products of coin doctors...or Donald Trump...or the Russians ! I'll just have a bit more Pol Roger and try to survive.
I seem to recall Shane selling a few like that in the original Mint packaging.
Maybe so, but it would be highly unusual for the reverse of the 64 Kennedy proof to look like the reverse of the 72 Ike proof. Same colors, same toning pattern.
@shorecoll said:
I don't remember who posted them, but a few members posted pictures of coins that they had toned through the slabs. Anyone remember who and can pull one up (if they didn't get zapped)?
Also I thought Weimar White had publicly demonstrated that he could copy any toning.
FYI, I do like toners, mostly classic bust halves, etc.
Well-known member on this site got caught toneing Morgan's a few years back. Before and after pics of coins were shown by another member.does not appeared to have suffered much from doing this.
Mark NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!! working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
The seated dollars that were released in the 1962-1964 Treasury release of backdated silver dollars contained one to three mint-sealed bags of one thousand uncirculated LSD’s, most were dated 1859-O and 1860-O. The vast majority did not tone because they were sealed in mint bags that dramatically slowed or prevented the natural oxidation process until they were opened. Excluding this hoard there's a very small 1-5% contingent of of LSD's that are blast white, and totally original. Look back at the many old-time collections and confirm the over-whelming number of toned seated coins. I am unaware of any complete or near complete sets of un-toned LSD that retain their full mint luster.
Therefore IMHO If you're collecting Liberty Seated Dollars you will have to make a very important choice regarding toning. You may choose to appreciate or at least tolerate toning, or you may collect un-toned examples whose surfaces have likely been altered from their natural state.
I value the fact that a coin is in the condition it is today because of the minting process used to make it, the time period in which it was made, and whatever natural processes (aging, toning, oxidizing, etc.) occurred during it's journey down the historic road it traveled. I do not see the need to try and reverse the process in order to create the illusion that the coin was minted yesterday.
rr who cares about a 67S 25C really? that's a nothing coin today. your time of being a big cheese is long past. we discussing toned coins here. we need to worry more about this statement:
This Seller has been successfully getting his coins graded for over 2 years. These are not mistakes. They are high quality artificially toned coins that are fooling the PCGS graders.
very sad but true. if anyone knows people doing this, tell pcgs!!!! one small step in stopping them
I don't fight the fact that most blast white coins have been dipped and most toned coins have been played with (to some degree).
I buy what I like and I'm not duped into this 'original' coin stuff (white or toned).
I have seen an original collection from the 1920's and all the silver was almost black, but the luster was booming, a combination you seldom see (to me, this is the definition of 'original').
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
Hooray for DE59 and this thread.
The more controversy and frustration, the sooner people may just say WTF and collect what they find attractive and fun to look at.
I see some very strong opinions in this thread.... along with solid factual information. The facts are clear, there are old blast white coins that have not been dipped, there are manufactured (AT) tarnished coins in TPG slabs. There are AT coins that NO expert can factually determine as such. The process can be duplicated in accelerated time periods. All that is true.... (I personally spent a couple of years playing with tarnish processes and can say from experience that AT can duplicate NT). Right now, profit - significant profit - is being made by producing attractive tarnished coins. The market is full of them and will continue as long as there is profit to be made. Cheers, RickO
Ricko you omitted one very important fact. That is the vast majority of early blast white coins that have been dipped, and unfortunately many have been improperly or over dipped.
very sad but true. if anyone knows people doing this, tell pcgs!!!! one small step in stopping them
First why is anyone's responsibility to warn PCGS about anything ? They hire the best graders and have the most knowledgeable staff - that's why they are supposedly the premier TPG. They should be able to tell AT from NT easily, especially if numerous coins all have the same look. And is PCGS going to buy back all of these coins that have been on the market for years in their plastic ? I doubt it. You are looking at thousands of coins.
Second, who reports dealers than dip coins to PCGS as doctors that alter surfaces ?
Lets be honest, this isnt a new problem. Its been happening for as long as Ive been collecting toners. If a collector blindly follows the grade or certification of any company, well that is misplaced trust. Again, mistakes happen whether its grading, color determination and even attribution of something as simple as proof or MS. Live by the plastic, die by the plastic.
Learn to grade, learn to spot dipped coins, learn to tell AT from NT.
very sad but true. if anyone knows people doing this, tell pcgs!!!! one small step in stopping them
First why is anyone's responsibility to warn PCGS about anything ? They hire the best graders and have the most knowledgeable staff - that's why they are supposedly the premier TPG. They should be able to tell AT from NT easily, especially if numerous coins all have the same look. And is PCGS going to buy back all of these coins that have been on the market for years in their plastic ? I doubt it. You are looking at thousands of coins.
Second, who reports dealers than dip coins to PCGS as doctors that alter surfaces ?
Lets be honest, this isnt a new problem. Its been happening for as long as Ive been collecting toners. If a collector blindly follows the grade or certification of any company, well that is misplaced trust. Again, mistakes happen whether its grading, color determination and even attribution of something as simple as proof or MS. Live by the plastic, die by the plastic.
Learn to grade, learn to spot dipped coins, learn to tell AT from NT.
Top TPGs definitely need to be warned.
Graders will see coins one at a time but when a pattern is noticed or the doctor is known, it should be raised. This has happened for numerous coins in the past.
And since grading is based on Market Acceptability, for this to work, the market needs to speak.
If some submitter is sending in clad proof toners they are most likely making them . any coin out of a clad proof set is only worth face value so why would anyone even submit them unless they were up to something ?
It's interesting the seller has a mix of PCGS TrueView coins and raw coins, especially if you look at completed sales. Perhaps the raw ones weren't gradable?
I think it's simple economics. The huge majority of old coins have damaged surfaces. Damaged surfaces are "market acceptable" if they have toning on them and toning can be applied. Therefore anyone with a vested financial interest in this market NEEDS to promote these coins.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
@Iwog said:
I think it's simple economics. The huge majority of old coins have damaged surfaces. Damaged surfaces are "market acceptable" if they have toning on them and toning can be applied. Therefore anyone with a vested financial interest in this market NEEDS to promote these coins.
Good point on damaged surfaces, but that doesn't seem like it applies to the modern proofs also being discussed.
@Iwog said:
I think it's simple economics. The huge majority of old coins have damaged surfaces. Damaged surfaces are "market acceptable" if they have toning on them and toning can be applied. Therefore anyone with a vested financial interest in this market NEEDS to promote these coins.
Good point on damaged surfaces, but that doesn't seem like it applies to the modern proofs also being discussed.
It applies because modern proofs are completely without any value . Anyone sending them in is suspect in my book , of being a doctor or soft in the head take your pick
Thread should be renamed " Half Truths about the the toned coin market with exteme bias and prejudiced examples" but it probably wouldn't fit in the thread header text wise . It certainly would be more accurate.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Iwog said:
I think it's simple economics. The huge majority of old coins have damaged surfaces. Damaged surfaces are "market acceptable" if they have toning on them and toning can be applied. Therefore anyone with a vested financial interest in this market NEEDS to promote these coins.
Good point on damaged surfaces, but that doesn't seem like it applies to the modern proofs also being discussed.
It applies because modern proofs are completely without any value . Anyone sending them in is suspect in my book , of being a doctor or soft in the head take your pick
Hmm, I see. The general philosophy is to take coins that aren't worth anything, tone them up and get a premium. So from that perspective, a damaged classic coin or a perfect modern coin are both candidates.
@Iwog said:
I think it's simple economics. The huge majority of old coins have damaged surfaces. Damaged surfaces are "market acceptable" if they have toning on them and toning can be applied. Therefore anyone with a vested financial interest in this market NEEDS to promote these coins.
Good point on damaged surfaces, but that doesn't seem like it applies to the modern proofs also being discussed.
It applies because modern proofs are completely without any value . Anyone sending them in is suspect in my book , of being a doctor or soft in the head take your pick
Hmm, I see. The general philosophy is to take coins that aren't worth anything, tone them up and get a premium. So from that perspective, a damaged classic coin or a perfect modern coin are both candidates.
If its worth melt value for silver or gold you can always dip it and try again , if its clad then other than spend it what would you do with it?
Comments
Ultimately the market (we as collectors) decides what is acceptable. Premiums increase when there are more collectors searching for coins with a certain "look" or those coins are in short supply. Some collectors like toning, others do not. The only problem I see is when sellers try to deceive buyers by misrepresenting coins as something they are not. This could be due to lack of knowledge or deceitful intent.
I have an 1884 CC GSA Morgan with a swath of cobalt blue toning in the upper reverse field between 12:00 and 3:00. Most likely that part of the coin was touching the mint bag for generations.
You rarely see attractively toned SLQs and Liberty Nickels. That hasn't changed over the years.
But, you see far more colorful Unc. Morgans now than 30 years ago. Ditto re Unc. Capped Bust Halves since 2003. These coins just didn't magically appear one day.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Seriously what scenario do you think would be required for you to see one single example of a fake toned monster coin? What opportunity could you, even theoretically, have had even if these AT coins were everywhere?
It's the nature of the artificial toning business to make large sums of money on the coins themselves. The worst possible scenario, the collapse of the entire toned coin market, would be if someone demonstrated a monster AT coin going from the lab into a slab conclusively.
Magicians kept to this code for hundreds of years until the rewards of mass media finally outweighed the benefits of secrecy. Why do you think it's any different for coin magic?
To nitpick, the toning is actually a layer of silver sulfide, with no oxygen in the mix. (It is still, to a chemist, 'oxidation' though.) The colors result, from light reflecting off of both the upper part of the corrosion layer (the silver sulfide) and the lower part (the silver coin itself), and the light either cancels itself out or enhances itself, depending on the relationship between the thickness of the corrosion/toning layer and the wavelength of each color of light.
@Iwog And I'm assuming we didn't land on the moon. There's always nuggets of evidence to frame anything how you want but reality always wins. In this case the reality is much less of an issue than you are making it seem.
The problem with the whole AT versus NT debate is that it's not a debate. It's a lot of people saying the market is secure because experts can say they can tell the difference (without proof) and a lot of other people saying artificial toning is common and a lot of those coins are in slabs. (again without proof because it would ruin their industry)
So I'm approaching it from a different standpoint. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that monster toned coins went from being a rare oddity in the 1970s to ridiculously common in the early 2000s. Furthermore I have a LOT, maybe hundreds, of old time collectors who have either confessed to dipping every single uncirculated coin they ever owned or that they refused to even look at "dirty" coins back in the 1960s. Furthermore they said that was simply the way it was done back then and I have no reason to doubt them.
So my final argument is this. The toned coin market will always be defended tooth and nail because the amount of money both risked and profited is massive. Even if every single coin owned by every single collector turned out to be AT, every dealer would swear up and down they were natural. It would be like a Christian admitting that maybe Jesus didn't actually exist. It would be inconceivable. Therefore while I appreciate the many opinions on this subject from both sides, and I do understand that NT coins are sometimes uncovered in original packaging and probably will be forever, there's something else going on and the bias to defend it is obvious.
This thread gonna grow some legs. Where's that popcorn
IWOG what do you think of member AuroraBorealsis toned morgan collection?
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
Only popcorn??? Where's that popcorn-eating giraffe thingy?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I don't remember who posted them, but a few members posted pictures of coins that they had toned through the slabs. Anyone remember who and can pull one up (if they didn't get zapped)?
Also I thought Weimar White had publicly demonstrated that he could copy any toning.
FYI, I do like toners, mostly classic bust halves, etc.
After reading this thread from the beginning, it is depressing to realize that some people have learned absolutely nothing over the last 13 years.
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
Sounds more like a rant of someone who wants to play but can't. Keep pumping out those "AT" monster toned textile burlap bag toners all day and I will happily buy them all at a premium.... Because I like them and I can.
Literally every single piece of evidence you have posted is anecdotal. You are trying very hard to draw facts from your personal anecdotes. That is not to say your conclusions aren't possible. There are many factors involved that have already been discussed (namely market interest and the proliferation of the internet) that can give the perception that "there's something else going on" when you don't acknowledge that those factors exist.
I don't think I've seen a person break every rule 1-10 and not get banned. Impressive.
Too many gem seated coin hoards that came to the light from the 1970's to 2000's prove to us that these can stay white if stored correctly. Jim Halperin/NERCG's couple dozen gem 1860-0 half dimes all gleaming white in the mid-1970's. Any number of hoards of the low mintage 1979-1890 seated dimes, quarters, and halves. One coin I've followed since March 1975 is the James Stack 1867-s quarter. It's still 85% white today along with interesting black rims...not a typical trait of dipped coins where golden brown hues abound. It hasn't changed one bit in 40+ years since I first saw it. I doubt this coin has ever been dipped or played with in any way. The skin is still very crusty and thick. For the 18 years I owned it, it spent several of those years in a mylar flip. From 1975-1986 it was not in TPG plastic. Had the coin got even a little less exposure over the 108 years prior to 1975, it could have been 90-95% white today. Considering that 1879-1882 s Morgans have survived in gem blast white condition by the tens or hundreds of thousands, it's not much of a stretch to figure a coin from the late 1850's to mid-1870's could have survived blast white as well if just stacked along with other coins and kept mostly sealed from the environment.
While most "white" 19th century coins remaining today are the result of dipping(s), there's a very small 1-5% contingent of them (not including Morgan dollars) that are blast white, and totally original....even if most people just assume they "must have" been dipped. Consider the bags of 1860-0 seated dollars that were dispersed in the 1960's...mostly blast white. I would think some are still blast white and not been dipped since they were released.
http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/Gardner_Collection/QuarterBS_Images/1867s_obv.jpg
http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/Gardner_Collection/Quarter_BS_WithMotto.htm
(of the quarters in that listing above, all look white and dipped except possibly the 67-s).
https://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-quarters/quarters-and-twenty-cents/1867-s-25c-ms67-ngc-cac-briggs-1-a/a/1228-98352.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515
I hope that isn't directed at me. I have no intention of breaking the rules I just think it's important to bring the other side of the table to the OP which is that there is a lot unknown (which he has said previously) that may prove the issue being discussed isn't much of an issue. Though I do think it is becoming a bigger issue as time goes on as greed/counterfeiting/technology/etc becomes more and more efficient and commonplace.
A single seller on ebay. Coincidence that ALL of the toned proofs have the same colors regardless of the date or denomination? BTW, these are ALL in straight graded PCGS holders. Just one of many examples on Ebay right now.
wow....delusional writer at best. some people like dipped white and some love original color. the toned market is soley driven by demand and what people will pay-not hype. to look at a monster toned coin is like looking at work of art to some. its a personal preference.
only problem, the artists have become too good. the old saying among dealers was "pay for good work". today there is a little too much of it when there should not be. still if its that good and even the pros can't tell......
a perfect thread for rr-he can talk about the past.
Caddyshack, look around you, those coins from the past, are still here today, and will be around tomorrow. I know more about that 1867-s quarter than the buyer who currently owns it. I owned it longer than anyone since James Stack and the person who kept the pedigree lineage documented. That makes their past, present, and future all merge together. But, if you can enlighten us about the future of these coins, please do so. The rest of us around here can only analyze the "past" as that's all we have to go on. The coins that sold at 2017 FUN show are now in the past....along with James Stack, Norweb, Eliasberg, Pittman, Newman, Gardner, and soon to join them.... Pogue. All apparent "has beens"....being in the past.
Toned coin market is more like buy a blast white coin for 20 bucks , toss it in a frying pan , then list on ebay , add a dash of shill bidders and laugh all the way to the bank.
PCGS is very lenient on modern toners.
It shouldnt come as a shock to anyone that there are AT coins in top TPG plastic. No different than there are over graded coins in top TPG plastic as well as coins that are mis-attributed. Mistakes happen.
This Seller has been successfully getting his coins graded for over 2 years. These are not mistakes. They are high quality artificially toned coins that are fooling the PCGS graders.
New offering on the Bay. BIN for a mere 389.95. Do the reverse toning and colors look familiar??
You're right here of course. Then again, I like exceptions, not the rule
I would not purchase those coins without seeing them in hand. TruViews of modern proofs sometimes are misleading. In hand, the 58 proof dime likely looks different.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
I think its been a lot longer than 2 yrs if its the person who I think it is. And by mistake, I meant by PCGS. But by now, they are Market Acceptable, or at least have been made so by the plastic.
How do the sequentially numbered PCGS dimes look?
I would not purchase those coins.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
I seem to recall Shane selling a few like that in the original Mint packaging.
I'm so sorry.. I guess all my champagne toned coins are the products of coin doctors...or Donald Trump...or the Russians ! I'll just have a bit more Pol Roger and try to survive.
Maybe so, but it would be highly unusual for the reverse of the 64 Kennedy proof to look like the reverse of the 72 Ike proof. Same colors, same toning pattern.
Well-known member on this site got caught toneing Morgan's a few years back. Before and after pics of coins were shown by another member.does not appeared to have suffered much from doing this.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
RR nailed it.
The seated dollars that were released in the 1962-1964 Treasury release of backdated silver dollars contained one to three mint-sealed bags of one thousand uncirculated LSD’s, most were dated 1859-O and 1860-O. The vast majority did not tone because they were sealed in mint bags that dramatically slowed or prevented the natural oxidation process until they were opened. Excluding this hoard there's a very small 1-5% contingent of of LSD's that are blast white, and totally original. Look back at the many old-time collections and confirm the over-whelming number of toned seated coins. I am unaware of any complete or near complete sets of un-toned LSD that retain their full mint luster.
Therefore IMHO If you're collecting Liberty Seated Dollars you will have to make a very important choice regarding toning. You may choose to appreciate or at least tolerate toning, or you may collect un-toned examples whose surfaces have likely been altered from their natural state.
I value the fact that a coin is in the condition it is today because of the minting process used to make it, the time period in which it was made, and whatever natural processes (aging, toning, oxidizing, etc.) occurred during it's journey down the historic road it traveled. I do not see the need to try and reverse the process in order to create the illusion that the coin was minted yesterday.
rr who cares about a 67S 25C really? that's a nothing coin today. your time of being a big cheese is long past. we discussing toned coins here. we need to worry more about this statement:
This Seller has been successfully getting his coins graded for over 2 years. These are not mistakes. They are high quality artificially toned coins that are fooling the PCGS graders.
very sad but true. if anyone knows people doing this, tell pcgs!!!! one small step in stopping them
I don't fight the fact that most blast white coins have been dipped and most toned coins have been played with (to some degree).
I buy what I like and I'm not duped into this 'original' coin stuff (white or toned).
I have seen an original collection from the 1920's and all the silver was almost black, but the luster was booming, a combination you seldom see (to me, this is the definition of 'original').
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Hooray for DE59 and this thread.
The more controversy and frustration, the sooner people may just say WTF and collect what they find attractive and fun to look at.
I see some very strong opinions in this thread.... along with solid factual information. The facts are clear, there are old blast white coins that have not been dipped, there are manufactured (AT) tarnished coins in TPG slabs. There are AT coins that NO expert can factually determine as such. The process can be duplicated in accelerated time periods. All that is true.... (I personally spent a couple of years playing with tarnish processes and can say from experience that AT can duplicate NT). Right now, profit - significant profit - is being made by producing attractive tarnished coins. The market is full of them and will continue as long as there is profit to be made. Cheers, RickO
Ricko you omitted one very important fact. That is the vast majority of early blast white coins that have been dipped, and unfortunately many have been improperly or over dipped.
First why is anyone's responsibility to warn PCGS about anything ? They hire the best graders and have the most knowledgeable staff - that's why they are supposedly the premier TPG. They should be able to tell AT from NT easily, especially if numerous coins all have the same look. And is PCGS going to buy back all of these coins that have been on the market for years in their plastic ? I doubt it. You are looking at thousands of coins.
Second, who reports dealers than dip coins to PCGS as doctors that alter surfaces ?
Lets be honest, this isnt a new problem. Its been happening for as long as Ive been collecting toners. If a collector blindly follows the grade or certification of any company, well that is misplaced trust. Again, mistakes happen whether its grading, color determination and even attribution of something as simple as proof or MS. Live by the plastic, die by the plastic.
Learn to grade, learn to spot dipped coins, learn to tell AT from NT.
Top TPGs definitely need to be warned.
Graders will see coins one at a time but when a pattern is noticed or the doctor is known, it should be raised. This has happened for numerous coins in the past.
And since grading is based on Market Acceptability, for this to work, the market needs to speak.
If some submitter is sending in clad proof toners they are most likely making them . any coin out of a clad proof set is only worth face value so why would anyone even submit them unless they were up to something ?
It's interesting the seller has a mix of PCGS TrueView coins and raw coins, especially if you look at completed sales. Perhaps the raw ones weren't gradable?
I think it's simple economics. The huge majority of old coins have damaged surfaces. Damaged surfaces are "market acceptable" if they have toning on them and toning can be applied. Therefore anyone with a vested financial interest in this market NEEDS to promote these coins.
Good point on damaged surfaces, but that doesn't seem like it applies to the modern proofs also being discussed.
It applies because modern proofs are completely without any value . Anyone sending them in is suspect in my book , of being a doctor or soft in the head take your pick
Thread should be renamed " Half Truths about the the toned coin market with exteme bias and prejudiced examples" but it probably wouldn't fit in the thread header text wise . It certainly would be more accurate.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Hmm, I see. The general philosophy is to take coins that aren't worth anything, tone them up and get a premium. So from that perspective, a damaged classic coin or a perfect modern coin are both candidates.
If its worth melt value for silver or gold you can always dip it and try again , if its clad then other than spend it what would you do with it?