"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
"If you don't know the history, you don't know the coin"
I would take one step back from that statement and say if you don't know the history you can't know the coin with absolute certainty. I do believe that with the proper knowlegde, education and tools you can arrive at an understanding of the history with a high level of certainty. That's true whether we're discussing toned or blast white coins.
I have some experience in chemistry and metallurgy having worked in the engineering department of an electronic component manufacturing doing failure analysis. There are times that even with the best equipment the root cause of a failure cannot be determined with certainty. That is the exception. In the vast majority of cases the root cause and failure mechanism can be determine with a very high level of certainty.
I'm not advocating using equipment that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to determine if a coin has been ATed or dipped. But I do think your eyes with the help of lower power magnification and experience can result in identifying doctored coins, in most cases with a high level of certainty.
Iwog, in this thread and others, tries to inject suspicion and doubt in the minds of collectors regarding toned coins as if the same type of doctoring doesn't happen with respect to blast white coins. Are coins color enhanced? Yes. Are coins dipped in an attempt to restore the look of there original blast white appearance? Yes. I'm not a fan of either type of "enhancement" and I don't see one being any better or worst than the other.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
When it comes to "Monster" toned Coins, I think PT Barnum put out the most beautiful rainbow hued pearl of wisdom ever uttered by mankind. Anyone ever read "The Emporers New Clothes"? Another classic insight into the behavior of mankind.
I remember seeing many, many beautiful rainbow toned Morgans in the 1960s and 1970s...many of them from truly original bags (1000 coins) that showed up at the time. They definitely did exist and they existed in large numbers.
You can read Wayne Miller's silver dollar book and his "thin film interference" explanation for some of the science.
In the late 1970s, I advertised "Gem BU" Morgan dollars for $10 each, but I was getting $25 a coin for outrageous toners.
Gorgeous rainbow toned type coins and commemoratives were also available. What you didn't see was very many toned Peace dollars, Mercury dimes, and Walking Liberty halves (or Buffalo nickels for that matter)...at least that's how I remember it.
And the idea that there is no such thing as a blast white silver coin that hasn't been dipped is just not true. As late as the 1990s I can remeber original rolls of Walkers, Mercuries, and silver Washingtons with blazing white undipped gems filling those totally original bank wrapped rolls. And there were type coin rolls...many blast white...in the 1970s. There were the original rolls of Barber dimes that Ron Gillio had at a Long Beach show in the 1970s. And in about 1974, Fred Malone had an original roll of 1872-S half dimes. I think it was Jack Beymer who had a roll of 1892-S Barber halves. Ah...those were the days.
The point is...beautiful, totally original, outrageously toned rainbow coins have been around for a long time.
<< <i>I remember seeing many, many beautiful rainbow toned Morgans in the 1960s and 1970s...many of them from truly original bags (1000 coins) that showed up at the time. They definitely did exist and they existed in large numbers.
You can read Wayne Miller's silver dollar book and his "thin film interference" explanation for some of the science.
In the late 1970s, I advertised "Gem BU" Morgan dollars for $10 each, but I was getting $25 a coin for outrageous toners.
Gorgeous rainbow toned type coins and commemoratives were also available. What you didn't see was very many toned Peace dollars, Mercury dimes, and Walking Liberty halves (or Buffalo nickels for that matter)...at least that's how I remember it.
And the idea that there is no such thing as a blast white silver coin that hasn't been dipped is just not true. As late as the 1990s I can remeber original rolls of Walkers, Mercuries, and silver Washingtons with blazing white undipped gems filling those totally original bank wrapped rolls. And there were type coin rolls...many blast white...in the 1970s. There were the original rolls of Barber dimes that Ron Gillio had at a Long Beach show in the 1970s. And in about 1974, Fred Malone had an original roll of 1872-S half dimes. I think it was Jack Beymer who had a roll of 1892-S Barber halves. Ah...those were the days.
The point is...beautiful, totally original, outrageously toned rainbow coins have been around for a long time.
hrh >>
Iwog is going to have a coronary over this. I predict he will demand citations and references.
<< <i>The point is...beautiful, totally original, outrageously toned rainbow coins have been around for a long time.
hrh >>
Of course. I said as much and there have always been outrageously toned rainbow Morgans. You do know you're replying to a thread that's 4 years old right?
But that doesn't change what I observed and what many other people have seen over the last 10-15 years. A 1980's bourse might have displayed a dozen bright rainbow Morgans.
A 2007 bourse has HUNDREDS with hundreds more sitting in briefcases. Now I can't speak for your personal memory on this issue, (I'm still not sure you're even disagreeing with me) but I know what I saw.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
Who said there is no such thing as a blast white silver coin that hasn't been dipped?
Not me. I know damn well that blast white undipped silver was/is available in bulk. What I said and also know to be true is blast white coins are often dipped and sold as undipped original.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
I would say that there are an increasing number of AT coins making it into holders, especially NGC. However, there were toned coins out there before 1995... either that or someone's been screwing around with GSA holders.
<< <i>I would say that there are an increasing number of AT coins making it into holders. However, there were toned coins out there before 1995... either that or someone's been screwing around with GSA holders.
-David >>
I think that has already been proven on this board in fact. Coins were toned inside the old PCGS holders and sold as certified.
I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult in a GSA holder. I remember the last phase of the GSA coin sale. I ordered the maximum for myself and my family and got a good look at maybe a few thousand examples that passed through or near my hands right after issue.
I'll say this with my hand on the Bible, I did not see one single example that qualified as a monster toner! Almost all were blast white with an occasional darker one here and there to round out the mix. I understand that this is just one man's anecdotal experience, but it certainly doesn't square with what I'm seeing today!
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
There were the original rolls of Barber dimes that Ron Gillio had at a Long Beach show in the 1970s. And in about 1974, Fred Malone had an original roll of 1872-S half dimes. I think it was Jack Beymer who had a roll of 1892-S Barber halves. Ah...those were the days.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE!
What a crock of excrement. Ask dealers like Mike DeFalco, Larry Shepard, or Andy Kimmel; or collectors like Gregg Bingham, who have handled this material for over 30 years.
Buy what you like. I do ... and I will continue to buy beautifully, naturally, colorfully toned silver coins, including the amazing classic banded rainbow-toned Morgans that have always existed. Oh sure, at some times they were considered undesirable, and bags of Morgans were routinely dumped into bathtubs full of dip. Thankfully, many have survived, and still more have come to light as the occasional remaining original Mint-sealed bag surfaces.
I invite all of you to visit my Registry sets of beautifully toned morgan dollars. A link appears below. If you don't like them, buy white coins !!! I don't mind. I am happy with my beautiful set, and I didn't mind paying tremendous premiums where necessary to acquire them !!!
Excellent thread. Fun, and a bit sad to read the thoughtful comments on the first page, especially from Frank (FC57coins). I'm also struck, reading the last page (didn't read entire thread) at how we bicker over the margins here at times, when there is substantial agreement by folks with knowledge-as I see it...
Quote " About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! ."
Ummm not true. There were thousands of toned Morgans out there. You are nuts if you think they were not. I had some back in the 1970s. The Battle Creek Collection came straight out of the bags.
<< <i>Quote " About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! ."
Ummm not true. There were thousands of toned Morgans out there. You are nuts if you think they were not. I had some back in the 1970s. The Battle Creek Collection came straight out of the bags. >>
I don't know how many toned Morgans there are, there were, or there will be.
All I know is what I saw with my own eyes. Somewhere between 1985 and 2000 the market became flooded with rainbow toners where previously they were a rarity. I also know my history is correct. The 1950s-1970s was a time when most dealers would dip color off a coin in an instant. This is well documented.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
It remains interesting how intense the debate can be over AT/NT and toned coins in general and yet there seems to be little debate in connection with blast white and dipped coins that really have been stripped of their natural look... how sad and pathetic.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
About 1995 a former ANACS grader told me "mark counters never make good graders."
It's probably why the person was a "former" grader. Not being able to adequately assess marks, hairlines, tics, hits, scratches, is a major reason for people missing grades. While one can be a great retailer and not understand mark counting, I doubt you'll find a top notch grader who doesn't somehow count marks in one form or another. Not counting marks at some pt in the process is the dumbing down of grading for the almighty "eye appeal." One sees all sorts of sellers with huge prices who are supposedly "experts" on what is eye appealing yet not much else.
Back in the early 80's ( during the big silver boom) there were several coin dealers that set up at a local flee market. There was one that I bought a lot of coins from and I would set with him, even help wait on customers some. He would buy a lot of silver coins mostly Silver dollars. I would say 75% of what he bought was toned (Any where from ugly toning to beautiful toning) but the next Saturday all the better dates and grades would be in his case for sell and 100% of them were blast white. So yes I would say there were a lot Toned coins before 1985. But most of them that surfaced during that time were dipped back to white. During this time you could not hardly sell a coin that was toned. Most people didn't call them toned, but called them corroded coins instead. At least that is what most dealers called them when they were trying to buy them!
ED .....................................................
<< <i>Back in the early 80's ( during the big silver boom) there were several coin dealers that set up at a local flee market. There was one that I bought a lot of coins from and I would set with him, even help wait on customers some. He would buy a lot of silver coins mostly Silver dollars. I would say 75% of what he bought was toned (Any where from ugly toning to beautiful toning) but the next Saturday all the better dates and grades would be in his case for sell and 100% of them were blast white. So yes I would say there were a lot Toned coins before 1985. But most of them that surfaced during that time were dipped back to white. During this time you could not hardly sell a coin that was toned. Most people didn't call them toned, but called them corroded coins instead. At least that is what most dealers called them when they were trying to buy them! >>
That's exactly what I remember about the 1970s when I first started coin collecting. Color simply didn't sell and was almost always dipped off. I also remember during the 1980's a campaign by dealers and the press, most notably Coin World, to try and sell "corroded" coins to a public that never wanted them prior.
Now there's an explosion of rainbow colored Morgans. Based on my experience, I know beyond personal doubt that most of them were "created" in the last 15 years or so. There's just no other explanation.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
<< <i>Now there's an explosion of rainbow colored Morgans. Based on my experience, I know beyond personal doubt that most of them were "created" in the last 15 years or so. There's just no other explanation. >>
Iwog, please go through Sunnywood's registry set and list all the coins you think were "created" in the last 15 years. Thanks.
<< <i>It remains interesting how intense the debate can be over AT/NT and toned coins in general and yet there seems to be little debate in connection with blast white and dipped coins that really have been stripped of their natural look... how sad and pathetic. >>
Maybe the debate would pick up if there was natural dipping and artificial dipping.
<< <i>I would say that there are an increasing number of AT coins making it into holders, especially NGC. However, there were toned coins out there before 1995... either that or someone's been screwing around with GSA holders.
-David >>
You know the GSA slabs contain a lot of rainbow toners but it seems like most of those while having nice rainbow colors are more subdued and dark. I think these colors are more of a representation as to what's original. True there are some monster toners in GSA slabs or ones that came from GSA holders but in proportion to non-GSA coins it's not even close.
<< <i>I would say that there are an increasing number of AT coins making it into holders, especially NGC. However, there were toned coins out there before 1995... either that or someone's been screwing around with GSA holders.
-David >>
You know the GSA slabs contain a lot of rainbow toners but it seems like most of those while having nice rainbow colors are more subdued and dark. I think these colors are more of a representation as to what's original. True there are some monster toners in GSA slabs or ones that came from GSA holders but in proportion to non-GSA coins it's not even close. >>
It's funny that people keep bringing up GSA rainbow Morgans because I rememeber 99% of GSA Morgans to be blast white when they were first released. Not just a few samples, I looked at hundreds if not thousands and don't remember ANY that would qualify as a rainbow toned monsters. I think most of these must have toned after issue, and not in original bags as some suggest.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
<< <i>Now there's an explosion of rainbow colored Morgans. Based on my experience, I know beyond personal doubt that most of them were "created" in the last 15 years or so. There's just no other explanation. >>
Iwog, please go through Sunnywood's registry set and list all the coins you think were "created" in the last 15 years. Thanks. >>
I agree....all toned Morgans are AT and I am going to do my part to get them off the market.....please send all toned Morgans to me for immediate dipping
<< <i>So what happened with toned Morgans and other toned coins? Dealers hyped it, collectors bought it, and money changed hands. It's not art, it's oxidation. Oxidation is always ADDED to a coin after it leaves the mint, thus oxidation can ALWAYS be added to more and more coins until the market is saturated. People SHAMELESSLY talk about leaving coins outside on fences and in old cardboard holders and in gun cabinets in THIS forum!! How long until everyone has all the toned coins they want and the market goes away? How long until everyone is left holding that $300 Lady Di Beanie Baby and suddenly realize there aren't any buyers left?
One final note.......luster cannot be added to a coin, toning can. Toning hides luster, or covers up the fact its destroyed. Some of you think you're smarter than previous generations of coin collectors, but which generation was paying $400 for a $25 face value quarter bag just a few years ago? Marketing is a wonderful thing.........for the seller. >>
There will never be any agreement on this. Toning, like everything else, is in the eye of the beholder. I agree, coin doctors are scum. But the only downside to all of this in the NT coin market, in my opinion, is the hefty premiums that are usually added to common date/MM Morgans with attractive toning.
I personally still like undipped, white coins, as I did in the 1990s, and I did not buy into the toning craze. I will only pay a slight (10%?) premium for a coin with attractive, LIGHT toning, but not a monster premium. Personally, I don't even care how the toning got there- naturally or AT- because my money is not riding on it.
The age old debate.... tarnish vs. white coins. There are threads predating even this one.... and if the old board could be revived (prior to Feb/2001) you would see the same topic discussed over and over again. The fact remains, tarnish is environmental damage, however, people will pay premiums for this damage. Therefore, individuals will find a way to provide this commodity - and they do it very well. The best cannot be detected - and there are a lot of the best in slabs. Cheers, RickO
<< <i>The age old debate.... tarnish vs. white coins. There are threads predating even this one.... and if the old board could be revived (prior to Feb/2001) you would see the same topic discussed over and over again. The fact remains, tarnish is environmental damage, however, people will pay premiums for this damage. Therefore, individuals will find a way to provide this commodity - and they do it very well. The best cannot be detected - and there are a lot of the best in slabs. Cheers, RickO >>
The age old debate.... toned vs stripped coins. There are threads predating even this one... and if the old board could be revived (prior to Feb/2001) you would see the same topic discussed over and over again. The fact remains, stripped coins have had metal removed and are damaged, however, people will pay premiums for this damage. Therefore, individuals will find a way to provide this commodity -- and they do it very well. The best cannot be detected -- and there are a lot of the best in slabs. Take care....Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>Is Iwog still alive after the November hammering? >>
IWOG is bulgarian for baby seal................MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I personally still like undipped, white coins, as I did in the 1990s, and I did not buy into the toning craze. I will only pay a slight (10%?) premium for a coin with attractive, LIGHT toning, but not a monster premium. Personally, I don't even care how the toning got there- naturally or AT- because my money is not riding on it. >>
Which, BTW, is the reason they have to maintain that arbitrary delusion--because their money is riding on it.
<< <i>The age old debate.... tarnish vs. white coins. There are threads predating even this one.... and if the old board could be revived (prior to Feb/2001) you would see the same topic discussed over and over again. The fact remains, tarnish is environmental damage, however, people will pay premiums for this damage. Therefore, individuals will find a way to provide this commodity - and they do it very well. The best cannot be detected - and there are a lot of the best in slabs. Cheers, RickO >>
The age old debate.... toned vs stripped coins. There are threads predating even this one... and if the old board could be revived (prior to Feb/2001) you would see the same topic discussed over and over again. The fact remains, stripped coins have had metal removed and are damaged, however, people will pay premiums for this damage. Therefore, individuals will find a way to provide this commodity -- and they do it very well. The best cannot be detected -- and there are a lot of the best in slabs. Take care....Mike >>
Let's see if we can't get away from labels for just a minute. Abstractions, while they may indeed be convenient and consoling, hardly get one anywhere, except further and further away from the coin. When I look upon a coin, I could care less whether it was dipped, or whether the tarnish on it was imparted to it yesterday. I want to see certain things in that coin. If it's a high mint state coin, for example, I want to see a surface that's alive. I don't want to see areas that look flat and rubbed. I want to see the finish on that coin coming across. If it's colored, I want that color to be tarnish. Nail polish and spray paint don't appeal to me very much. I like my tarnish to be uniform, but that's not dispositive. Stability, richness, embeddedness, as opposed to cosmetic, thin, superficial, generally appeal to me, a whole lot, too.
OK, that's a piece of it. What about some of you? Can you articulate what attributes you like to see in a coin? Tell me about your preferences in relationship to tarnished coins, too, and try to do it based on what your eyes can see as opposed to what your mind's eye might imagine they can see. If you understand...
Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Mine appear below, in CAPITAL LETTERS, INTERJECTED INTO THE APPROPRIAGE PLACES
<< <i>Third party grading attacked the corner coin store by eliminating undergrading/overgrading margins which most dealers employed EXTENSIVELY. THIRD PARTY GRADING DIDN'T ATTACK ANYONE. THEY GRADED COINS. EVENTUALLY ENOUGH COINS GOT INTO HOLDERS SO AS TO MAKE MORE INFREQUENT THE BUYING OF COINS AT AU PRICES WHEN THEY WERE IN MS HOLDERS
They would purchase most MS coins as AU, dip them nice, and sell them as Gem or whatever they could convince buyers they were graded at. MY BELIEF IS THAT MOST PEOPLE IF THEY CAN OFFER YOU A PRICE LOWER THAN WHAT YOUR THING IS WORTH, WITHOUT SAYING ANYTHING MORE, THEY WILL. NOTHING HAS CHANGED
I watched a large number of coin stores go out of business in the 1980s. WHILE IT MAY BE TRUE THAT THE ADVENT OF THIRD PARTY GRADING HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THE DEMISE OF BRICK AND MORTAR COIN SHOPS, MY SUSPICIONS ARE THAT THE POPULARITY OF COLLECTING COINS HAS SUFFERED BECAUSE PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE, ARE MORE INTERESTED IN COMPUTER RELATED THINGS ESPECIALLY GAMING WHICH HAS OCCUPIED THEIR ATTENTION RATHER THAN COINS
In my own area I counted 5 coin shops within short driving distance, and they were all gone by 1990. It wasn't just slabs, but the silver market was on a 10 year decline during this time making dealer stock a depreciating asset.
MS65 prices were going bonkers during this time as well, and it all made it very difficult for dealers. (awwwww....poor dealers) WITH REGARD TO DEALERS, SEE BELOW
Toned coins were actually being pushed in the early 1980s, PEOPLE WERE INTERESTED IN THEM (BEAUTIFULLY TONED COINS) THEN AND THEIR ENTHUSIASM MAY HAVE COME ACROSS AS THEM PROMOTING THEM....I DON'T THINK THE BILDERBERGS WERE BEHIND IT
and I remember a series of Coin World articles showing people the virtues of colored coins. Back then it wasn't a matter of creating a premium for toned coins, but making them acceptable at all. You see, brilliant silver has always been easy to sell and still is. Dealer stock always tends toward dull and lifeless I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS NOT UNCOMMON FOR THE BULK OF A DEALER'S INVENTORY TO BE UNATTRACTIVE CLEANED COINS BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT IS LEFT OVER AFTER THE ATTRACTIVE ONES ARE SOLD.
(and dark) pieces as the cherry coins get sniped away. Since grade inflation was no longer an easy way to make a buck, coin dealers needed a new trick and toned coins was it. IF YOU'RE SAYING THAT MOST OF THE DEALERS THEN JUST STARTED ARTIFICIALLY TONING THEIR COINS
The scheme? Convince all coin collectors that toned coins are the way to go!! They are super cool man, all dark and pretty and kinda brownish. THERE ARE ATTRACTIVELY TONED COINS AND THEN THERE UNATTRACTIVELY TONED COINS. EVEN A FIVE YEAR OLD WHO HAS NOT GONE TO ANY OF THE ANA SEMINARS CAN RENDER OPINIONS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT A COIN BELONGS IN EITHER OF THOSE TWO CATAGORIES..... AN ATTRACTIVELY TONED COIN SELLS ITSELF AND SPENDING YOUR TIME TRYINGG TO SELL SOMEONE AN UGLY TONED COIN WHEN YOU HAVE ATTRACTIVELY TONED COINS IN YOUR CASES IS LIKE PEEING IN THE OCEAN TO MAKE IT RISE
Who would possibly have the nerve to question all these coin dealer experts telling us that luster was dead and silver sulfide was the way to go? In the early 1990s I saw the most FABULOUS nonsense. For example you were lucky to get spots in a proof set, how ugly haze was the beginnings of monster toning, and how only new and uneducated collectors preferred blast white brilliant silver to dull brown. The funny thing is that I don't remember the word "original" being used much in the early 90s because the game was finding a dog with few/hidden contact marks and making the MS65 or MS66 grade for the jackpot. Coin dealers loved it all since they could now purchase estates full of oxidized coins, convince the seller they were junk, and put em in slabs for a nice profit. Grade inflation was back!
It wasn't long until the cracks started appearing in the fugly coin market. Believe it or not, there were actually people preaching that buying a coin unseen was perfectly okay as long as it was certified. THAT IS TRUE AND I HAVE ALWAYS LAUGHED AT THAT PROPOSITION BUT HAVING SAID THAT, I WILL PAY FULL FACE FOR ANY SILVER DOLLAR IN ANY NGC OR PCGS HOLDER AND I WON'T NEED TO SEE THE COIN FIRST.
At first this was accepted, but this quickly changed when collectors learned that the dogs were being dumped on the bluesheet fugly market, while the nice stuff was being sold at a premium at the coin shows and retail shops. I KINDA GOT THE IMPRESSION FROM YOU THAT YOU THOUGHT COIN DEALERS COULD SELL ANYTHING TO ANYONE....NOW THEY'RE PAYING EXTRA FOR THE GOOD STUFF BECAUSE THEY NEED IT FOR THEIR SHOPS?
This was about the time that premium grade slabs were falling rapidly and collectors were generally abandoning the hobby in droves. I remember a lot of misery during the 1990s, and a lot of it came from the absolute JUNK sold in MS66 slabs. And most of these of course were darkly toned. I HAVE NOT SEEN THE RATIO OF UGLY COINS TO ATTRACTIVE COINS CHANGE MUCH OVER THE YEARS
About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. THAT'S BECAUSE DEALERS BEGAN SPECIALIZING IN RAINBOW TONED COINS
All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I HAVE SPOKEN TO SEVERAL DEALERS WHO BOUGHT ORIGINAL BAGS OF SILVER DOLLARS IN THE 1970S AND 1980S WHO COMMENTED ON THE NUMBER OF TONED COINS THEY PULLED OUT OF THE BAGS, THEY SAID THEY WERE THERE
I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created and continue to be created for collectors who are more discriminating in their toning choices because they still want flash. THE TERM FLASH USUALLY REFERS TO LUSTER OR ORIGINAL SKIN. MOST MONSTER TONED COINS THAT I HAVE PURCHASED HAD PLENTY OF FLASH EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE TONED. IT IS TRUE THOUGH THAT HEAVILY TONED COINS CAN HAVE IMPAIRED LUSTER...LIKE SOME UNTONED COINS
The unfortunate result of sky high prices for some of these creations is that lots of fugly era coins are being pushed AGAIN as nice toners, but with a twist.........now it's not the look, it's the ORIGINALITY that's being sold. Who wants a coin that was messed with, when you can have one oxidized to death in it's ORIGINAL cardboard holder!!! Touting coins as original is actually a very recent development invented by......you guessed it, hundreds of dealers with the same fugly slabs that are left over after the blast white brilliant cherries are sniped out. Almost all coins sold as original are dipped and retoned, as this is extremely easy to spot after you've dipped a few coins on your own. Hmmmmm.....funny how dealers violently discourage this..........PEOPLE CERTAINLY HAVE TRIED TO CHANGE THE LOOK OF COINS OVER THE YEARS WITH CHEMICALS AND TEMPERATURE AND ABRASIVES....I'M SURE ANY SERIOUS NUMISMATIC BIBLIOPHILE CAN POINT TO LITERATURE FROM THE 1800 ABOUT "RESTORATION".....CLEANING....RETONING....ETC....NOTHING IS NEW UNDER THE SUN....I DO NOT THINK THOUGH COIN DEALERS GO OUT AND BUY UGLY TONED COINS ORIGINAL OR NOT AND THEN TRY TO PUSH THEM ONTO THEIR CLIENTS....ALSO, IT IS AN EASY CHOICE FOR ME TO DESIRE WHAT APPEARS TO BE AN ORIGINAL COIN AS OPPOSED TO A WHITE COIN THAT LOOKS LIKE IT'S BEEN HEAVILY CLEANED OR DIPPED
Conclusion??? The truth is that collectors generally collect objects because there is someone else who wants the same object. I BELIEVE THAT COLLECTORS COLLECT WHAT THEY WANT TO COLLECT, OFTENTIMES HAVING SOME ETIOLOGY IN THEIR FORMATIVE YEARS......THIS COMPORTS WITH WERNER MUENSTERBERGER'S BOOK ENTITLED "COLLECTING: AN UNRULY PASSION: PSYCHOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES. MUENSTERBERGER IS A PSYCHOLOGIST.
History? Link to the past? Sure, I'll admit there is plenty of that too but lets be serious here for a moment.........what history or link to the past is there with a three legged buffalo nickel? A mint employee ground a bit too much off the die so it looks a little different then all the other nickels. Are we really appreciating the history of a mint employee with a grinding wheel, or do we want this coin because everyone ELSE wants this coin, and it's a pleasure to know that YOU'VE got it? The answer is obvious.
So what happened with toned Morgans and other toned coins? Dealers hyped it, collectors bought it, and money changed hands. It's not art, it's oxidation. Oxidation is always ADDED to a coin after it leaves the mint, thus oxidation can ALWAYS be added to more and more coins until the market is saturated. People SHAMELESSLY talk about leaving coins outside on fences and in old cardboard holders and in gun cabinets in THIS forum!! How long until everyone has all the toned coins they want and the market goes away? How long until everyone is left holding that $300 Lady Di Beanie Baby and suddenly realize there aren't any buyers left? THERE ARE BILLIONS OF COINS MINTED EVERY WEEK LESS THAN 40 MILES FROM WHERE I AM TYPING THIS. THERE WILL NEVER BE A SHORTAGE OF WHITE COINS TO TONE OR TONED COINS TO CLEAN.....AND ANYONE WHO ISN'T THRILLED ABOUT MERRY-GO-ROUNDS SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
One final note.......luster cannot be added to a coin, toning can. Toning hides luster, or covers up the fact its destroyed. Some of you think you're smarter than previous generations of coin collectors, but which generation was paying $400 for a $25 face value quarter bag just a few years ago? Marketing is a wonderful thing.........for the seller. MARKETING IS INDEED A WONDERFUL THING FOR THE SELLER BUT DID YOU KNOW THAT ADVERTISEMENTS FOR THINGS LIKE CARS AND COMPUTERS ARE READ EVEN MORE OFTEN BY PEOPLE WHO ALREADY OWN THE THING THAN BY SOMEONE THINKING ABOUT BUYING IT? >>
And with regard to the comments made about dealers......Here's something I wrote in a thread in this forum in 2002 (it's just as germane today as then):
I too, hate all coin dealers. I mean, who the hell do they think they are, buying coins when they’re not collectors and holding them hostage and asking us to pay them more than they paid just because they got there first? And that guy, Jay Parrino. Man, I’d like to give him a piece of my mind. Owning a Wreath Cent in PCGS MS 68 RED? I mean, who the hell does he think he is anyway? And he wants how much for it? That’s crazy! I know what every coin is worth, and his coin isn’t worth that. You can get 10 of them for half what he's asking, I saw a bunch of them at Vinnie's table at the gun show. I’m coin God and I post my opinions here almost every day (I got plenty of time while I look for a job. Anyone looking to hire a pizza delivery guy? You’ll need to provide the car, though ‘cause all I got is a bicycle!) to edify those who I deem worthy of my edification which is everyone! I rarely if ever add that “it is just my opinion” because I don’t have to! I know everything and my opinion is obviously better than everyone’s!
And you know what even makes me madder? That guy Adrian Crane. I have never bought a coin from him but I emailed him over twenty minutes ago, didn't sign my name or tell him I have $50,000 to spend, someday, and he has the nerve to continue not responding to me. Even though I’ve never bought a coin off eBay for more than $20 and my feedback shows it, he should drop what he is doing and either pick up the phone and call me (I guess I should have put my phone number in the email) or send me an email RIGHT NOW! I don’t care how many emails he gets everyday, how busy he is, how many jobs he has, how many kids he has, the bills that he has to pay or anything else about him – I have needs and I want them serviced immediately regardless of whether I have any money or not! Oh, and one more thing. “The seller is a true sheister, and a disgrace to the hobby.” And even though I obviously either don’t own a dictionary or don’t know how to use one, I am to be respected because if you don’t I will probably say something really mean about you too, as mean as I can think up to scare you away, and even though I may make a complete ass out of myself in the process, over and over again, you will not have the courage to even attempt to attack me because I am willing to make a bigger ass out of myself just to make a point. Besides, I have at least one friend that will back up almost anything I say and post his responses right in this forum! And just because I self-admittedly, don’t even own a scanner means nothing – who needs a scanner anyways! I have a Commodore 64 and that’s all I need to do what it is I have set out to do which of course is bestow my valuable opinions on everyone regardless of whether they ask for them or not!
Yes, I will give you advice that you don’t ask for, and while you may feel like a fool when you read it, in front of everyone who cruises these pages, too bad! It’s the United States and you have to suffer idiots like me because your freedom to speak intelligently about meaningful things could be jeapordized by silencing morons like me! Yes, you wise ones out there who only lurk as smart folks would, – you’ve seen what I and others will do to you! Stay hidden! You have very little to gain by risking your feelings with a post here! Unless, of course, you have an impenetrable hide of steel. And who has that?
Finally, I love naming coin dealers and then libeling them! Hell, they won’t sue me – they know that somebody with judgment like mine couldn’t own a pot to pee in or even a window to throw it out of! And everyone knows that teaching me a lesson would be expensive, so I can just say anything I want to about anybody, and anything at anytime! And yes, most of the people out there with an IQ of 80 or better will see me as the idiot I am, the truth is I can do lots of damage because not everyone will take the time to see me for what I truly am and thereby completely ignore everything I write!
Isn’t America great! I think I’ll become a coin dealer too someday and show everyone how it is done, if only I could shake this fog that seems to prevent me from thinking like normal people….
(Hey guys, what happened? I woke up and read this on the PCGS US message board under my name. I must have been taken over by something evil….I wonder what it all means? I guess I could erase it all but somehow I’m thinking that maybe there is just something here for someone or someone(s) to think about. Boy, I hope no one get offended by all this. I mean, geez, I just promised everyone that I would be more sensitive …maybe I should have said that I would be more sensitive to those people WHO DESERVE IT!…….)
............................and not much has changed in eight-plus years since this most interesting thread first appeared, opinions are still strong on both sides of the issue. i find it peculiar that some of the strongest opinions made come from members who have either passed away(very sadly), moved on to other ventures after their "passion" for our Hobby faded, become less vocal about the issue or simply chosen to be less active at this site. also, a few have left and returned at oppurtune times to take advantage of some of which Iwog makes note in the OP.
one thing seems certain to me, well, several things. 1. Artificially Toned coins do in fact exist. 2. the quality and techniques have advanced in the past decade to the point where the "experts" are admittedly fooled to the point where they are uncertain. 3. coins are still "dipped" back to pristine brilliance. 4. trust me on this, you absolutely cannot re-create luster once it's been removed, either by toning or by dipping. 5. the issue has been so manipulated that Originality has almost been reduced to a conceptual dream.
my conclusion from all this is that the safest way to collect is with PCGS/NGC graded non-variety key dates with solid pricing history in grades ranging from VF-XF.
The only way I'd believe a coin was NT was if I got the original bag from the mint and had opened it myself many years later to find toners in it. Now there are undoubtedly NT coins out there, but I don't know which ones they are and don't believe people who tell me they know which ones they are. Especially if they're selling or collecting them. I used to believe smoe of it until that toned Gobrecht appeared in a holder and a photo from a few months earlier showed it untoned.
I like the toners because of their eye appeal and the associated time required to attain the toning. Also love the white DMPLs. Basically, I look for eye appeal and originality.
I trust my eye (and much more so), the grading professionals at PCGS.
I make my living as a consultant in my field - people employ me for my accumulated knowledge, my experience, and the quality of my previous work efforts.
I transfer this practice to my collecting. While I love coins - for my efforts they are a serious investment warranting the assistance of an able consultant. I lack that expertise to be sure. PCGS is that primary consultant.
If a coins gets by PCGS, and the associated dealer I purchase the coin through, and to a much, much lesser extent me, then so be it. I think that getting through all these levels of scrutiny is a low probability event. If it happens, my heirs will have to deal with disposing of the coin that made it through this multi-level review. The coin is no less beautiful to my inexperienced eye.
I love the look of the toners. It is almost a new experience each time I bring a group of them home for visitation. Such eye candy.....
Comments
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
"If you don't know the history, you don't know the coin"
I would take one step back from that statement and say if you don't know the history you can't know the coin with absolute certainty. I do believe that with the proper knowlegde, education and tools you can arrive at an understanding of the history with a high level of certainty. That's true whether we're discussing toned or blast white coins.
I have some experience in chemistry and metallurgy having worked in the engineering department of an electronic component manufacturing doing failure analysis. There are times that even with the best equipment the root cause of a failure cannot be determined with certainty. That is the exception. In the vast majority of cases the root cause and failure mechanism can be determine with a very high level of certainty.
I'm not advocating using equipment that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to determine if a coin has been ATed or dipped. But I do think your eyes with the help of lower power magnification and experience can result in identifying doctored coins, in most cases with a high level of certainty.
Iwog, in this thread and others, tries to inject suspicion and doubt in the minds of collectors regarding toned coins as if the same type of doctoring doesn't happen with respect to blast white coins. Are coins color enhanced? Yes. Are coins dipped in an attempt to restore the look of there original blast white appearance? Yes. I'm not a fan of either type of "enhancement" and I don't see one being any better or worst than the other.
I remember seeing many, many beautiful rainbow toned Morgans in the 1960s and 1970s...many of them from truly original bags (1000 coins) that showed up at the time. They definitely did exist and they existed in large numbers.
You can read Wayne Miller's silver dollar book and his "thin film interference" explanation for some of the science.
In the late 1970s, I advertised "Gem BU" Morgan dollars for $10 each, but I was getting $25 a coin for outrageous toners.
Gorgeous rainbow toned type coins and commemoratives were also available. What you didn't see was very many toned Peace dollars, Mercury dimes, and Walking Liberty halves (or Buffalo nickels for that matter)...at least that's how I remember it.
And the idea that there is no such thing as a blast white silver coin that hasn't been dipped is just not true. As late as the 1990s I can remeber original rolls of Walkers, Mercuries, and silver Washingtons with blazing white undipped gems filling those totally original bank wrapped rolls. And there were type coin rolls...many blast white...in the 1970s. There were the original rolls of Barber dimes that Ron Gillio had at a Long Beach show in the 1970s. And in about 1974, Fred Malone had an original roll of 1872-S half dimes. I think it was Jack Beymer who had a roll of 1892-S Barber halves. Ah...those were the days.
The point is...beautiful, totally original, outrageously toned rainbow coins have been around for a long time.
hrh
<< <i>I remember seeing many, many beautiful rainbow toned Morgans in the 1960s and 1970s...many of them from truly original bags (1000 coins) that showed up at the time. They definitely did exist and they existed in large numbers.
You can read Wayne Miller's silver dollar book and his "thin film interference" explanation for some of the science.
In the late 1970s, I advertised "Gem BU" Morgan dollars for $10 each, but I was getting $25 a coin for outrageous toners.
Gorgeous rainbow toned type coins and commemoratives were also available. What you didn't see was very many toned Peace dollars, Mercury dimes, and Walking Liberty halves (or Buffalo nickels for that matter)...at least that's how I remember it.
And the idea that there is no such thing as a blast white silver coin that hasn't been dipped is just not true. As late as the 1990s I can remeber original rolls of Walkers, Mercuries, and silver Washingtons with blazing white undipped gems filling those totally original bank wrapped rolls. And there were type coin rolls...many blast white...in the 1970s. There were the original rolls of Barber dimes that Ron Gillio had at a Long Beach show in the 1970s. And in about 1974, Fred Malone had an original roll of 1872-S half dimes. I think it was Jack Beymer who had a roll of 1892-S Barber halves. Ah...those were the days.
The point is...beautiful, totally original, outrageously toned rainbow coins have been around for a long time.
hrh >>
Iwog is going to have a coronary over this. I predict he will demand citations and references.
<< <i>The point is...beautiful, totally original, outrageously toned rainbow coins have been around for a long time.
hrh >>
Of course. I said as much and there have always been outrageously toned rainbow Morgans. You do know you're replying to a thread that's 4 years old right?
But that doesn't change what I observed and what many other people have seen over the last 10-15 years. A 1980's bourse might have displayed a dozen bright rainbow Morgans.
A 2007 bourse has HUNDREDS with hundreds more sitting in briefcases. Now I can't speak for your personal memory on this issue, (I'm still not sure you're even disagreeing with me) but I know what I saw.
Not me. I know damn well that blast white undipped silver was/is available in bulk. What I said and also know to be true is blast white coins are often dipped and sold as undipped original.
-David
<< <i>I would say that there are an increasing number of AT coins making it into holders. However, there were toned coins out there before 1995... either that or someone's been screwing around with GSA holders.
-David >>
I think that has already been proven on this board in fact. Coins were toned inside the old PCGS holders and sold as certified.
I'm sure it wouldn't be that difficult in a GSA holder. I remember the last phase of the GSA coin sale. I ordered the maximum for myself and my family and got a good look at maybe a few thousand examples that passed through or near my hands right after issue.
I'll say this with my hand on the Bible, I did not see one single example that qualified as a monster toner! Almost all were blast white with an occasional darker one here and there to round out the mix. I understand that this is just one man's anecdotal experience, but it certainly doesn't square with what I'm seeing today!
<< <i>About 1995 a former ANACS grader told me "mark counters never make good graders." >>
Neither do color counters.
I knew it would happen.
What a crock of excrement. Ask dealers like Mike DeFalco, Larry Shepard, or Andy Kimmel; or collectors like Gregg Bingham, who have handled this material for over 30 years.
Buy what you like. I do ... and I will continue to buy beautifully, naturally, colorfully toned silver coins, including the amazing classic banded rainbow-toned Morgans that have always existed. Oh sure, at some times they were considered undesirable, and bags of Morgans were routinely dumped into bathtubs full of dip. Thankfully, many have survived, and still more have come to light as the occasional remaining original Mint-sealed bag surfaces.
I invite all of you to visit my Registry sets of beautifully toned morgan dollars. A link appears below. If you don't like them, buy white coins !!! I don't mind. I am happy with my beautiful set, and I didn't mind paying tremendous premiums where necessary to acquire them !!!
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>About 1995 a former ANACS grader told me "mark counters never make good graders." >>
Neither do Kool-Aid drinkers.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>
<< <i>About 1995 a former ANACS grader told me "mark counters never make good graders." >>
Neither do Kool-Aid drinkers. >>
I'm also struck, reading the last page (didn't read entire thread) at how we bicker over the margins here at times, when there is substantial agreement by folks with knowledge-as I see it...
About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! ."
Ummm not true. There were thousands of toned Morgans out there. You are nuts if you think they were not. I had some back in the 1970s. The Battle Creek Collection came straight out of the bags.
Amazing toners
Rainbow Stars
<< <i>Quote "
About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! ."
Ummm not true. There were thousands of toned Morgans out there. You are nuts if you think they were not. I had some back in the 1970s. The Battle Creek Collection came straight out of the bags. >>
I don't know how many toned Morgans there are, there were, or there will be.
All I know is what I saw with my own eyes. Somewhere between 1985 and 2000 the market became flooded with rainbow toners where previously they were a rarity. I also know my history is correct. The 1950s-1970s was a time when most dealers would dip color off a coin in an instant. This is well documented.
<< <i>Sunnywoods toners are all AT...
Amazing toners >>
Yeah, and you sold him some of that AT stuff, including the 1890 if I remember correctly. What an amazingly toned coin.
U.S. Type Set
Rainbow Stars
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
It's probably why the person was a "former" grader. Not being able to adequately assess marks, hairlines, tics, hits, scratches, is a major reason for people missing grades. While one can be a great retailer and not understand mark counting, I doubt you'll find a top notch grader who doesn't somehow count marks in one form or another. Not counting marks at some pt in the process is the dumbing down of grading for the almighty "eye appeal." One sees all sorts of sellers with huge prices who are supposedly "experts" on what is eye appealing yet not much else.
roadrunner
will always provide the product that collectors
wish to collect. However, after a number of
repetitions, of strip, color, strip, color and strip.
we end up with a large supply of dull, white , washed out
blah coins. For an original coin, one will eventually have to
depend on collections, that have remained intact for 100 years.
Camelot
I would say 75% of what he bought was toned (Any where from ugly toning to beautiful toning) but the next Saturday all the better dates and grades would be in his case for sell and 100% of them were blast white. So yes I would say there were a lot Toned coins before 1985.
But most of them that surfaced during that time were dipped back to white. During this time you could not hardly sell a coin that was toned.
Most people didn't call them toned, but called them corroded coins instead. At least that is what most dealers called them when they were trying to buy them!
.....................................................
<< <i>Back in the early 80's ( during the big silver boom) there were several coin dealers that set up at a local flee market. There was one that I bought a lot of coins from and I would set with him, even help wait on customers some. He would buy a lot of silver coins mostly Silver dollars.
I would say 75% of what he bought was toned (Any where from ugly toning to beautiful toning) but the next Saturday all the better dates and grades would be in his case for sell and 100% of them were blast white. So yes I would say there were a lot Toned coins before 1985.
But most of them that surfaced during that time were dipped back to white. During this time you could not hardly sell a coin that was toned.
Most people didn't call them toned, but called them corroded coins instead. At least that is what most dealers called them when they were trying to buy them! >>
That's exactly what I remember about the 1970s when I first started coin collecting. Color simply didn't sell and was almost always dipped off. I also remember during the 1980's a campaign by dealers and the press, most notably Coin World, to try and sell "corroded" coins to a public that never wanted them prior.
Now there's an explosion of rainbow colored Morgans. Based on my experience, I know beyond personal doubt that most of them were "created" in the last 15 years or so. There's just no other explanation.
<< <i>Now there's an explosion of rainbow colored Morgans. Based on my experience, I know beyond personal doubt that most of them were "created" in the last 15 years or so. There's just no other explanation. >>
Iwog, please go through Sunnywood's registry set and list all the coins you think were "created" in the last 15 years. Thanks.
<< <i>It remains interesting how intense the debate can be over AT/NT and toned coins in general and yet there seems to be little debate in connection with blast white and dipped coins that really have been stripped of their natural look... how sad and pathetic. >>
Maybe the debate would pick up if there was natural dipping and artificial dipping.
<< <i>I would say that there are an increasing number of AT coins making it into holders, especially NGC. However, there were toned coins out there before 1995... either that or someone's been screwing around with GSA holders.
-David >>
You know the GSA slabs contain a lot of rainbow toners but it seems like most of those while having nice rainbow colors are more subdued and dark. I think these colors are more of a representation as to what's original. True there are some monster toners in GSA slabs or ones that came from GSA holders but in proportion to non-GSA coins it's not even close.
<< <i>Maybe the debate would pick up if there was natural dipping and artificial dipping. >>
glad to see alittle humor
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>
<< <i>I would say that there are an increasing number of AT coins making it into holders, especially NGC. However, there were toned coins out there before 1995... either that or someone's been screwing around with GSA holders.
-David >>
You know the GSA slabs contain a lot of rainbow toners but it seems like most of those while having nice rainbow colors are more subdued and dark. I think these colors are more of a representation as to what's original. True there are some monster toners in GSA slabs or ones that came from GSA holders but in proportion to non-GSA coins it's not even close. >>
It's funny that people keep bringing up GSA rainbow Morgans because I rememeber 99% of GSA Morgans to be blast white when they were first released. Not just a few samples, I looked at hundreds if not thousands and don't remember ANY that would qualify as a rainbow toned monsters. I think most of these must have toned after issue, and not in original bags as some suggest.
<< <i>
<< <i>Now there's an explosion of rainbow colored Morgans. Based on my experience, I know beyond personal doubt that most of them were "created" in the last 15 years or so. There's just no other explanation. >>
Iwog, please go through Sunnywood's registry set and list all the coins you think were "created" in the last 15 years. Thanks. >>
Still waiting for an answer . . . . .
<< <i>Still waiting for an answer . . . . .
What a Blast from the Past !!!
<< <i>Is Iwog still alive after the November hammering? >>
Ignorance is bliss
<< <i>So what happened with toned Morgans and other toned coins? Dealers hyped it, collectors bought it, and money changed hands. It's not art, it's oxidation. Oxidation is always ADDED to a coin after it leaves the mint, thus oxidation can ALWAYS be added to more and more coins until the market is saturated. People SHAMELESSLY talk about leaving coins outside on fences and in old cardboard holders and in gun cabinets in THIS forum!! How long until everyone has all the toned coins they want and the market goes away? How long until everyone is left holding that $300 Lady Di Beanie Baby and suddenly realize there aren't any buyers left?
One final note.......luster cannot be added to a coin, toning can. Toning hides luster, or covers up the fact its destroyed. Some of you think you're smarter than previous generations of coin collectors, but which generation was paying $400 for a $25 face value quarter bag just a few years ago? Marketing is a wonderful thing.........for the seller. >>
There will never be any agreement on this. Toning, like everything else, is in the eye of the beholder. I agree, coin doctors are scum. But the only downside to all of this in the NT coin market, in my opinion, is the hefty premiums that are usually added to common date/MM Morgans with attractive toning.
<< <i>The age old debate.... tarnish vs. white coins. There are threads predating even this one.... and if the old board could be revived (prior to Feb/2001) you would see the same topic discussed over and over again. The fact remains, tarnish is environmental damage, however, people will pay premiums for this damage. Therefore, individuals will find a way to provide this commodity - and they do it very well. The best cannot be detected - and there are a lot of the best in slabs. Cheers, RickO >>
The age old debate.... toned vs stripped coins. There are threads predating even this one... and if the old board could be revived (prior to Feb/2001) you would see the same topic discussed over and over again. The fact remains, stripped coins have had metal removed and are damaged, however, people will pay premiums for this damage. Therefore, individuals will find a way to provide this commodity -- and they do it very well. The best cannot be detected -- and there are a lot of the best in slabs. Take care....Mike
<< <i>Is Iwog still alive after the November hammering? >>
IWOG is bulgarian for baby seal................MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I personally still like undipped, white coins, as I did in the 1990s, and I did not buy into the toning craze. I will only pay a slight (10%?) premium for a coin with attractive, LIGHT toning, but not a monster premium. Personally, I don't even care how the toning got there- naturally or AT- because my money is not riding on it. >>
Which, BTW, is the reason they have to maintain that arbitrary delusion--because their money is riding on it.
I'm with you.
<< <i>
<< <i>The age old debate.... tarnish vs. white coins. There are threads predating even this one.... and if the old board could be revived (prior to Feb/2001) you would see the same topic discussed over and over again. The fact remains, tarnish is environmental damage, however, people will pay premiums for this damage. Therefore, individuals will find a way to provide this commodity - and they do it very well. The best cannot be detected - and there are a lot of the best in slabs. Cheers, RickO >>
The age old debate.... toned vs stripped coins. There are threads predating even this one... and if the old board could be revived (prior to Feb/2001) you would see the same topic discussed over and over again. The fact remains, stripped coins have had metal removed and are damaged, however, people will pay premiums for this damage. Therefore, individuals will find a way to provide this commodity -- and they do it very well. The best cannot be detected -- and there are a lot of the best in slabs. Take care....Mike
Let's see if we can't get away from labels for just a minute. Abstractions, while they may indeed be convenient and consoling, hardly get one anywhere, except further and further away from the coin. When I look upon a coin, I could care less whether it was dipped, or whether the tarnish on it was imparted to it yesterday. I want to see certain things in that coin. If it's a high mint state coin, for example, I want to see a surface that's alive. I don't want to see areas that look flat and rubbed. I want to see the finish on that coin coming across. If it's colored, I want that color to be tarnish. Nail polish and spray paint don't appeal to me very much. I like my tarnish to be uniform, but that's not dispositive. Stability, richness, embeddedness, as opposed to cosmetic, thin, superficial, generally appeal to me, a whole lot, too.
OK, that's a piece of it. What about some of you? Can you articulate what attributes you like to see in a coin? Tell me about your preferences in relationship to tarnished coins, too, and try to do it based on what your eyes can see as opposed to what your mind's eye might imagine they can see. If you understand...
<< <i>Third party grading attacked the corner coin store by eliminating undergrading/overgrading margins which most dealers employed EXTENSIVELY. THIRD PARTY GRADING DIDN'T ATTACK ANYONE. THEY GRADED COINS. EVENTUALLY ENOUGH COINS GOT INTO HOLDERS SO AS TO MAKE MORE INFREQUENT THE BUYING OF COINS AT AU PRICES WHEN THEY WERE IN MS HOLDERS
They would purchase most MS coins as AU, dip them nice, and sell them as Gem or whatever they could convince buyers they were graded at. MY BELIEF IS THAT MOST PEOPLE IF THEY CAN OFFER YOU A PRICE LOWER THAN WHAT YOUR THING IS WORTH, WITHOUT SAYING ANYTHING MORE, THEY WILL. NOTHING HAS CHANGED
I watched a large number of coin stores go out of business in the 1980s. WHILE IT MAY BE TRUE THAT THE ADVENT OF THIRD PARTY GRADING HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THE DEMISE OF BRICK AND MORTAR COIN SHOPS, MY SUSPICIONS ARE THAT THE POPULARITY OF COLLECTING COINS HAS SUFFERED BECAUSE PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE, ARE MORE INTERESTED IN COMPUTER RELATED THINGS ESPECIALLY GAMING WHICH HAS OCCUPIED THEIR ATTENTION RATHER THAN COINS
In my own area I counted 5 coin shops within short driving distance, and they were all gone by 1990. It wasn't just slabs, but the silver market was on a 10 year decline during this time making dealer stock a depreciating asset.
MS65 prices were going bonkers during this time as well, and it all made it very difficult for dealers. (awwwww....poor dealers) WITH REGARD TO DEALERS, SEE BELOW
Toned coins were actually being pushed in the early 1980s, PEOPLE WERE INTERESTED IN THEM (BEAUTIFULLY TONED COINS) THEN AND THEIR ENTHUSIASM MAY HAVE COME ACROSS AS THEM PROMOTING THEM....I DON'T THINK THE BILDERBERGS WERE BEHIND IT
and I remember a series of Coin World articles showing people the virtues of colored coins. Back then it wasn't a matter of creating a premium for toned coins, but making them acceptable at all. You see, brilliant silver has always been easy to sell and still is. Dealer stock always tends toward dull and lifeless I WOULD SAY THAT IT IS NOT UNCOMMON FOR THE BULK OF A DEALER'S INVENTORY TO BE UNATTRACTIVE CLEANED COINS BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT IS LEFT OVER AFTER THE ATTRACTIVE ONES ARE SOLD.
(and dark) pieces as the cherry coins get sniped away. Since grade inflation was no longer an easy way to make a buck, coin dealers needed a new trick and toned coins was it. IF YOU'RE SAYING THAT MOST OF THE DEALERS THEN JUST STARTED ARTIFICIALLY TONING THEIR COINS
The scheme? Convince all coin collectors that toned coins are the way to go!! They are super cool man, all dark and pretty and kinda brownish. THERE ARE ATTRACTIVELY TONED COINS AND THEN THERE UNATTRACTIVELY TONED COINS. EVEN A FIVE YEAR OLD WHO HAS NOT GONE TO ANY OF THE ANA SEMINARS CAN RENDER OPINIONS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT A COIN BELONGS IN EITHER OF THOSE TWO CATAGORIES..... AN ATTRACTIVELY TONED COIN SELLS ITSELF AND SPENDING YOUR TIME TRYINGG TO SELL SOMEONE AN UGLY TONED COIN WHEN YOU HAVE ATTRACTIVELY TONED COINS IN YOUR CASES IS LIKE PEEING IN THE OCEAN TO MAKE IT RISE
Who would possibly have the nerve to question all these coin dealer experts telling us that luster was dead and silver sulfide was the way to go? In the early 1990s I saw the most FABULOUS nonsense. For example you were lucky to get spots in a proof set, how ugly haze was the beginnings of monster toning, and how only new and uneducated collectors preferred blast white brilliant silver to dull brown. The funny thing is that I don't remember the word "original" being used much in the early 90s because the game was finding a dog with few/hidden contact marks and making the MS65 or MS66 grade for the jackpot. Coin dealers loved it all since they could now purchase estates full of oxidized coins, convince the seller they were junk, and put em in slabs for a nice profit. Grade inflation was back!
It wasn't long until the cracks started appearing in the fugly coin market. Believe it or not, there were actually people preaching that buying a coin unseen was perfectly okay as long as it was certified. THAT IS TRUE AND I HAVE ALWAYS LAUGHED AT THAT PROPOSITION BUT HAVING SAID THAT, I WILL PAY FULL FACE FOR ANY SILVER DOLLAR IN ANY NGC OR PCGS HOLDER AND I WON'T NEED TO SEE THE COIN FIRST.
At first this was accepted, but this quickly changed when collectors learned that the dogs were being dumped on the bluesheet fugly market, while the nice stuff was being sold at a premium at the coin shows and retail shops. I KINDA GOT THE IMPRESSION FROM YOU THAT YOU THOUGHT COIN DEALERS COULD SELL ANYTHING TO ANYONE....NOW THEY'RE PAYING EXTRA FOR THE GOOD STUFF BECAUSE THEY NEED IT FOR THEIR SHOPS?
This was about the time that premium grade slabs were falling rapidly and collectors were generally abandoning the hobby in droves. I remember a lot of misery during the 1990s, and a lot of it came from the absolute JUNK sold in MS66 slabs. And most of these of course were darkly toned. I HAVE NOT SEEN THE RATIO OF UGLY COINS TO ATTRACTIVE COINS CHANGE MUCH OVER THE YEARS
About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. THAT'S BECAUSE DEALERS BEGAN SPECIALIZING IN RAINBOW TONED COINS
All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I HAVE SPOKEN TO SEVERAL DEALERS WHO BOUGHT ORIGINAL BAGS OF SILVER DOLLARS IN THE 1970S AND 1980S WHO COMMENTED ON THE NUMBER OF TONED COINS THEY PULLED OUT OF THE BAGS, THEY SAID THEY WERE THERE
I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created and continue to be created for collectors who are more discriminating in their toning choices because they still want flash. THE TERM FLASH USUALLY REFERS TO LUSTER OR ORIGINAL SKIN. MOST MONSTER TONED COINS THAT I HAVE PURCHASED HAD PLENTY OF FLASH EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE TONED. IT IS TRUE THOUGH THAT HEAVILY TONED COINS CAN HAVE IMPAIRED LUSTER...LIKE SOME UNTONED COINS
The unfortunate result of sky high prices for some of these creations is that lots of fugly era coins are being pushed AGAIN as nice toners, but with a twist.........now it's not the look, it's the ORIGINALITY that's being sold. Who wants a coin that was messed with, when you can have one oxidized to death in it's ORIGINAL cardboard holder!!! Touting coins as original is actually a very recent development invented by......you guessed it, hundreds of dealers with the same fugly slabs that are left over after the blast white brilliant cherries are sniped out. Almost all coins sold as original are dipped and retoned, as this is extremely easy to spot after you've dipped a few coins on your own. Hmmmmm.....funny how dealers violently discourage this..........PEOPLE CERTAINLY HAVE TRIED TO CHANGE THE LOOK OF COINS OVER THE YEARS WITH CHEMICALS AND TEMPERATURE AND ABRASIVES....I'M SURE ANY SERIOUS NUMISMATIC BIBLIOPHILE CAN POINT TO LITERATURE FROM THE 1800 ABOUT "RESTORATION".....CLEANING....RETONING....ETC....NOTHING IS NEW UNDER THE SUN....I DO NOT THINK THOUGH COIN DEALERS GO OUT AND BUY UGLY TONED COINS ORIGINAL OR NOT AND THEN TRY TO PUSH THEM ONTO THEIR CLIENTS....ALSO, IT IS AN EASY CHOICE FOR ME TO DESIRE WHAT APPEARS TO BE AN ORIGINAL COIN AS OPPOSED TO A WHITE COIN THAT LOOKS LIKE IT'S BEEN HEAVILY CLEANED OR DIPPED
Conclusion??? The truth is that collectors generally collect objects because there is someone else who wants the same object. I BELIEVE THAT COLLECTORS COLLECT WHAT THEY WANT TO COLLECT, OFTENTIMES HAVING SOME ETIOLOGY IN THEIR FORMATIVE YEARS......THIS COMPORTS WITH WERNER MUENSTERBERGER'S BOOK ENTITLED "COLLECTING: AN UNRULY PASSION: PSYCHOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVES. MUENSTERBERGER IS A PSYCHOLOGIST.
History? Link to the past? Sure, I'll admit there is plenty of that too but lets be serious here for a moment.........what history or link to the past is there with a three legged buffalo nickel? A mint employee ground a bit too much off the die so it looks a little different then all the other nickels. Are we really appreciating the history of a mint employee with a grinding wheel, or do we want this coin because everyone ELSE wants this coin, and it's a pleasure to know that YOU'VE got it? The answer is obvious.
So what happened with toned Morgans and other toned coins? Dealers hyped it, collectors bought it, and money changed hands. It's not art, it's oxidation. Oxidation is always ADDED to a coin after it leaves the mint, thus oxidation can ALWAYS be added to more and more coins until the market is saturated. People SHAMELESSLY talk about leaving coins outside on fences and in old cardboard holders and in gun cabinets in THIS forum!! How long until everyone has all the toned coins they want and the market goes away? How long until everyone is left holding that $300 Lady Di Beanie Baby and suddenly realize there aren't any buyers left? THERE ARE BILLIONS OF COINS MINTED EVERY WEEK LESS THAN 40 MILES FROM WHERE I AM TYPING THIS. THERE WILL NEVER BE A SHORTAGE OF WHITE COINS TO TONE OR TONED COINS TO CLEAN.....AND ANYONE WHO ISN'T THRILLED ABOUT MERRY-GO-ROUNDS SHOULD DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
One final note.......luster cannot be added to a coin, toning can. Toning hides luster, or covers up the fact its destroyed. Some of you think you're smarter than previous generations of coin collectors, but which generation was paying $400 for a $25 face value quarter bag just a few years ago? Marketing is a wonderful thing.........for the seller. MARKETING IS INDEED A WONDERFUL THING FOR THE SELLER BUT DID YOU KNOW THAT ADVERTISEMENTS FOR THINGS LIKE CARS AND COMPUTERS ARE READ EVEN MORE OFTEN BY PEOPLE WHO ALREADY OWN THE THING THAN BY SOMEONE THINKING ABOUT BUYING IT? >>
Here's the link: http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=114677
I too, hate all coin dealers. I mean, who the hell do they think they are, buying coins when they’re not collectors and holding them hostage and asking us to pay them more than they paid just because they got there first? And that guy, Jay Parrino. Man, I’d like to give him a piece of my mind. Owning a Wreath Cent in PCGS MS 68 RED? I mean, who the hell does he think he is anyway? And he wants how much for it? That’s crazy! I know what every coin is worth, and his coin isn’t worth that. You can get 10 of them for half what he's asking, I saw a bunch of them at Vinnie's table at the gun show. I’m coin God and I post my opinions here almost every day (I got plenty of time while I look for a job. Anyone looking to hire a pizza delivery guy? You’ll need to provide the car, though ‘cause all I got is a bicycle!) to edify those who I deem worthy of my edification which is everyone! I rarely if ever add that “it is just my opinion” because I don’t have to! I know everything and my opinion is obviously better than everyone’s!
And you know what even makes me madder? That guy Adrian Crane. I have never bought a coin from him but I emailed him over twenty minutes ago, didn't sign my name or tell him I have $50,000 to spend, someday, and he has the nerve to continue not responding to me. Even though I’ve never bought a coin off eBay for more than $20 and my feedback shows it, he should drop what he is doing and either pick up the phone and call me (I guess I should have put my phone number in the email) or send me an email RIGHT NOW! I don’t care how many emails he gets everyday, how busy he is, how many jobs he has, how many kids he has, the bills that he has to pay or anything else about him – I have needs and I want them serviced immediately regardless of whether I have any money or not! Oh, and one more thing. “The seller is a true sheister, and a disgrace to the hobby.” And even though I obviously either don’t own a dictionary or don’t know how to use one, I am to be respected because if you don’t I will probably say something really mean about you too, as mean as I can think up to scare you away, and even though I may make a complete ass out of myself in the process, over and over again, you will not have the courage to even attempt to attack me because I am willing to make a bigger ass out of myself just to make a point. Besides, I have at least one friend that will back up almost anything I say and post his responses right in this forum! And just because I self-admittedly, don’t even own a scanner means nothing – who needs a scanner anyways! I have a Commodore 64 and that’s all I need to do what it is I have set out to do which of course is bestow my valuable opinions on everyone regardless of whether they ask for them or not!
Yes, I will give you advice that you don’t ask for, and while you may feel like a fool when you read it, in front of everyone who cruises these pages, too bad! It’s the United States and you have to suffer idiots like me because your freedom to speak intelligently about meaningful things could be jeapordized by silencing morons like me! Yes, you wise ones out there who only lurk as smart folks would, – you’ve seen what I and others will do to you! Stay hidden! You have very little to gain by risking your feelings with a post here! Unless, of course, you have an impenetrable hide of steel. And who has that?
Finally, I love naming coin dealers and then libeling them! Hell, they won’t sue me – they know that somebody with judgment like mine couldn’t own a pot to pee in or even a window to throw it out of! And everyone knows that teaching me a lesson would be expensive, so I can just say anything I want to about anybody, and anything at anytime! And yes, most of the people out there with an IQ of 80 or better will see me as the idiot I am, the truth is I can do lots of damage because not everyone will take the time to see me for what I truly am and thereby completely ignore everything I write!
Isn’t America great! I think I’ll become a coin dealer too someday and show everyone how it is done, if only I could shake this fog that seems to prevent me from thinking like normal people….
(Hey guys, what happened? I woke up and read this on the PCGS US message board under my name. I must have been taken over by something evil….I wonder what it all means? I guess I could erase it all but somehow I’m thinking that maybe there is just something here for someone or someone(s) to think about. Boy, I hope no one get offended by all this. I mean, geez, I just promised everyone that I would be more sensitive …maybe I should have said that I would be more sensitive to those people WHO DESERVE IT!…….)
one thing seems certain to me, well, several things.
1. Artificially Toned coins do in fact exist.
2. the quality and techniques have advanced in the past decade to the point where the "experts" are admittedly fooled to the point where they are uncertain.
3. coins are still "dipped" back to pristine brilliance.
4. trust me on this, you absolutely cannot re-create luster once it's been removed, either by toning or by dipping.
5. the issue has been so manipulated that Originality has almost been reduced to a conceptual dream.
my conclusion from all this is that the safest way to collect is with PCGS/NGC graded non-variety key dates with solid pricing history in grades ranging from VF-XF.
Great history from HRH on the good ol' days.
Learned a new word - etiology.
I like the toners because of their eye appeal and the associated time required to attain the toning. Also love the white DMPLs. Basically, I look for eye appeal and originality.
I trust my eye (and much more so), the grading professionals at PCGS.
I make my living as a consultant in my field - people employ me for my accumulated knowledge, my experience, and the quality of my previous work efforts.
I transfer this practice to my collecting. While I love coins - for my efforts they are a serious investment warranting the assistance of an able consultant. I lack that expertise to be sure. PCGS is that primary consultant.
If a coins gets by PCGS, and the associated dealer I purchase the coin through, and to a much, much lesser extent me, then so be it. I think that getting through all these levels of scrutiny is a low probability event. If it happens, my heirs will have to deal with disposing of the coin that made it through this multi-level review. The coin is no less beautiful to my inexperienced eye.
I love the look of the toners. It is almost a new experience each time I bring a group of them home for visitation. Such eye candy.....