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The truth about the toned coin market

IwogIwog Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭
(I was going to write this in response to Wondercoin's post about 1970-1990 Morgans, but it expanded enough to deserve its own thread. The question is: Why was it that toned Morgans regardless of how pretty, were worth virtually -0- premium whatsoever?)

You want the truth? You want the truth???? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!

Okay, here's the truth........

Third party grading attacked the corner coin store by eliminating undergrading/overgrading margins which most dealers employed EXTENSIVELY. They would purchase most MS coins as AU, dip them nice, and sell them as Gem or whatever they could convince buyers they were graded at. I watched a large number of coin stores go out of business in the 1980s. In my own area I counted 5 coin shops within short driving distance, and they were all gone by 1990. It wasn't just slabs, but the silver market was on a 10 year decline during this time making dealer stock a depreciating asset. MS65 prices were going bonkers during this time as well, and it all made it very difficult for dealers. (awwwww....poor dealers)

Toned coins were actually being pushed in the early 1980s, and I remember a series of Coin World articles showing people the virtues of colored coins. Back then it wasn't a matter of creating a premium for toned coins, but making them acceptable at all. You see, brilliant silver has always been easy to sell and still is. Dealer stock always tends toward dull and lifeless (and dark) pieces as the cherry coins get sniped away. Since grade inflation was no longer an easy way to make a buck, coin dealers needed a new trick and toned coins was it.

The scheme? Convince all coin collectors that toned coins are the way to go!! They are super cool man, all dark and pretty and kinda brownish. Who would possibly have the nerve to question all these coin dealer experts telling us that luster was dead and silver sulfide was the way to go? In the early 1990s I saw the most FABULOUS nonsense. For example you were lucky to get spots in a proof set, how ugly haze was the beginnings of monster toning, and how only new and uneducated collectors preferred blast white brilliant silver to dull brown. The funny thing is that I don't remember the word "original" being used much in the early 90s because the game was finding a dog with few/hidden contact marks and making the MS65 or MS66 grade for the jackpot. Coin dealers loved it all since they could now purchase estates full of oxidized coins, convince the seller they were junk, and put em in slabs for a nice profit. Grade inflation was back!

It wasn't long until the cracks started appearing in the fugly coin market. Believe it or not, there were actually people preaching that buying a coin unseen was perfectly okay as long as it was certified. At first this was accepted, but this quickly changed when collectors learned that the dogs were being dumped on the bluesheet fugly market, while the nice stuff was being sold at a premium at the coin shows and retail shops. This was about the time that premium grade slabs were falling rapidly and collectors were generally abandoning the hobby in droves. I remember a lot of misery during the 1990s, and a lot of it came from the absolute JUNK sold in MS66 slabs. And most of these of course were darkly toned.

About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created and continue to be created for collectors who are more discriminating in their toning choices because they still want flash. The unfortunate result of sky high prices for some of these creations is that lots of fugly era coins are being pushed AGAIN as nice toners, but with a twist.........now it's not the look, it's the ORIGINALITY that's being sold. Who wants a coin that was messed with, when you can have one oxidized to death in it's ORIGINAL cardboard holder!!! Touting coins as original is actually a very recent development invented by......you guessed it, hundreds of dealers with the same fugly slabs that are left over after the blast white brilliant cherries are sniped out. Almost all coins sold as original are dipped and retoned, as this is extremely easy to spot after you've dipped a few coins on your own. Hmmmmm.....funny how dealers violently discourage this..........

Conclusion??? The truth is that collectors generally collect objects because there is someone else who wants the same object. History? Link to the past? Sure, I'll admit there is plenty of that too but lets be serious here for a moment.........what history or link to the past is there with a three legged buffalo nickel? A mint employee ground a bit too much off the die so it looks a little different then all the other nickels. Are we really appreciating the history of a mint employee with a grinding wheel, or do we want this coin because everyone ELSE wants this coin, and it's a pleasure to know that YOU'VE got it? The answer is obvious.

So what happened with toned Morgans and other toned coins? Dealers hyped it, collectors bought it, and money changed hands. It's not art, it's oxidation. Oxidation is always ADDED to a coin after it leaves the mint, thus oxidation can ALWAYS be added to more and more coins until the market is saturated. People SHAMELESSLY talk about leaving coins outside on fences and in old cardboard holders and in gun cabinets in THIS forum!! How long until everyone has all the toned coins they want and the market goes away? How long until everyone is left holding that $300 Lady Di Beanie Baby and suddenly realize there aren't any buyers left?

One final note.......luster cannot be added to a coin, toning can. Toning hides luster, or covers up the fact its destroyed. Some of you think you're smarter than previous generations of coin collectors, but which generation was paying $400 for a $25 face value quarter bag just a few years ago? Marketing is a wonderful thing.........for the seller.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
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Comments

  • Everyone is entitled to an opinion and you're no exception. One of the nice things about this hobby is that there's room for everyone to enjoy whatever the heck flips their switch. I think one thing that goes unsaid in threads like this is that sometimes newbie collectors, and even some seasoned collectors fall for the hype of unscrupulous dealers who want to dump whatever the flavor of the day coin is. If you're serious about coin collecting, you will read, you will research, you will see as many coins as possible, you will seek out those collectors and dealers who specialize in your particular area of interest and you will soak up every bit of education and information about a given coin, or series.

    For someone to compare brown ugly toned coins with fantastically toned Morgans, commems, or any other coin that has attained natural toning merely shows a bias. Toning, in it's purest form, enhances the look of a coin and gives it character. That's my own opinion. When you study the patterns and intricacies of toning, you come to appreciate just how delicate a balance you have to have to get a monster toned coin. That being said, I agree with you that when the SCUM OF THE EARTH DOCTORS came into the scene, well - at least came out from hiding, the market for these coins suffered and continues to suffer greatly.

    Bottom line, there's ample opportunity for both lovers of white coins and lovers of toned coins to co-exist. In my mind the whole thing boils down to the education factor. If you buy schlock coins with bad toning thinking they're monsters - shame on you. Go back to reading and studying. However, if you see something extraordinary, something that's truly unique because it's made by the natural interaction of silver with the elments, it can be a sight to behold.

    With hopefully GSAGUY's permission - give me something like this, and I'll chose it over it's white counterpart any day.

    Frank

    image
  • Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,944 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting points made. I was not collecting then so I cannot disprove or prove this point of view. Maybe some others should weight in that were there and show their colors.

    Tbig
  • jamesfsmjamesfsm Posts: 652 ✭✭
    At most shows, there are TONS of blast white coins. Yes, alot of people like them but they are not scarce. True rainbow/monster toned coins are pretty hard to find IMO.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,647 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Iwog: I personally love beautifully toned specimens in my series of choice (silver Wash quarters), but, also appreciate fresh, original, brilliant specimens as well.

    And, putting aside your viewpoint on how the toned arena may have actually "gotten started", the reality is it is likely here to stay for a long time to come. My fascination is with the timing of the shift and to some extent the metaphysics if you will. Similar to America going from rural to urban - reasons aside, folks are here to stay in the big cities. image

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • IwogIwog Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭
    The supply of toned coins can always be increased. The supply of coins with good luster cannot.
    "...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 9,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The supply of toned coins can always be increased. The supply of coins with good luster cannot.

    Dip can make some great luster!

    Despite the toned craze as of late (and I admit that I love it as much as anyone!), there is still such a small, small, small percentage of pretty "naturally" toned coins out there (vis mint bag/album/mint set, NOT oven/basement/blowtorch). And when you line them up with their white counterparts, the bottomline is that they just have more VAVOOM!
  • foodudefoodude Posts: 3,552 ✭✭✭
    The supply of toned coins can always be increased. The supply of coins with good luster cannot.

    And isn't it interesting that luster (after eye appeal marks, and strike) seems to be the last aspect of grading that most people understand ... how often is it that people dispute the grade or getting a BB focuses on the marks, etc. when the luster does not make it; or can't understand why a coin with superb luster has a few more marks (of course remembering that that there are minimums for which no other aspect of the coin can save a higher grade) than is seen a coin with average luster ...

    edited to add a mising word "it"
    Greg Allen Coins, LLC Show Schedule: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/573044/our-show-schedule-updated-10-2-16 Authorized dealer for NGC, PCGS, CAC, and QA. Member of PNG, RTT (Founding Platinum Member), FUN, MSNS, and NCBA (formerly ICTA); Life Member of ANA and CSNS. NCBA Board member. "GA3" on CCE.
  • Iwog.....great post, couldn't agree more. This toning craze is just what you said, now serious money goes crazy over little blue, green or whatever funky color might be growing on some coin. Some of these coin dealers are laughing all the way to the bank. To each there own, if you love colors on coins you can pretty much get your pick now on ebay and more are coming in every color imaginable is my guess..........I wonder if the mint could come up with ways to get color on coins now, the new $20 bill has some nice color now.........
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Tempus fugit.
  • Cam40Cam40 Posts: 8,146
    I like both ends to the spectrum myself but only if the date on the coin fits the surface colors.

    know what I mean Vern?

    even then, its not a cut-and-dry issue.

    i,ve learned in the past few years that toned coins are easy, er can be easily made.
    while booming luster cant, outside of the minting process.

    sometimes these days it seems that the degree of luster on a coin takes a backseat
    to the degree of colors a coin exhibts as the main focal point on the `originality` of a coin.

    personally i feel luster is king, followed by strike,(those two sorta go hand in hand, without a great strike, there isnt any great luster really) then surface preservation.
    color can give a coin some eye-appeal no doubt, but its not the overriding issue IMO.

  • Now and in the future if you want to sell me coins like the one below I WILL pay a premium so please bring them to me. It is not a fad to me.

    image
  • BigD5BigD5 Posts: 3,433
    Are you suggesting that there was a collective "plan" among dealers to convince the collecting public that toned coins were the new "rage"? Even if I buy into that, are you suggesting the reason this collective "movement" occured was that someone or some group out there had enough insight to realize that if these colored coins were pushed/marketed correctly that money could be made hand over fist?

    I won't give anyone that much credit. The tendencies of the market change. There are lots of factors as to why, but I think your reason is a bit off. Dipping, and white, untoned coins was definitely the rage at one time, and it fell out of favor, a bit, for a large portion of the collecting community. It hasn't died, and is still very popular with a lot of collectors.

    I think the toned coin market has softened a bit, but the outrageous stuff is still very strong among a core group (how large that core is could be argued extensively) of collectors. I'm not sure if white coins in general fell out of favor, but more the dipped white, dull look that was left over from an improper dip.


    BigD5
    LSCC#1864

    Ebay Stuff
  • elwoodelwood Posts: 2,414


    << <i>These coins didn't exist before 1995. No, they didn't...they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created... >>



    I have to disagree. Yes, many toned coins have been created but many are natural. I was having a discussion with a dealer a couple weeks ago about this very subject. I had just purchased my first end roll toner and got on the subject of toning. He was recalling and regretting all the beautifully toned coins (mostly Morgans) he had dipped in the 1980's and wished he could have them now. If we only knew them what we know now.
    So, to say that these coins didn't exist before 1995 and that they were NOT THERE and all where created. Well, that makes no sense at all. Unless you mean that Artificial Toning didn't exist before 1995.
    More blast white coins have been created than toned coins.
    What should a 100-200 year old silver coin really look like. They WILL NOT STAY WHITE.
    Please visit my website prehistoricamerica.com www.visitiowa.org/pinecreekcabins
  • << These coins didn't exist before 1995. No, they didn't...they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created... >>

    I wondered why things seemed so strange, all those coins I bought back in the 80's and all along I was in the twilight zone and it was really 1996!! It is nice to have such an incredibly intelligent person on these boards to let us know how things really are (thanks professor) instead of having to rely on all those twilight zone memories.


  • << <i>These coins didn't exist before 1995. No, they didn't...they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created... >>




    Good Lord!! I don't know whether to laugh or cry over this ludicrous statement, so I guess I'll just go with your lead. I don't think you are full of it, I'm absolutely certain you are full of it.

    For better or worse, I go back quite a ways. I can recall my Uncle, who had a collection of reknown, back in the 50's and 60's spending evenings dipping off all those nasty colors, some of them on both sides. I remember him comenting about the crescents and how they were formed and then.....................they were gone forever.

    I liked them, liked all the rainbow colors and told him so. He gave me that knowing smile and a nod of the head that silently said that I was just a kid and being the adult that he was, he was doing the right thing. Sort of like shooting Old Yeller, it had to be done. Sentiment played no role here.
    "Lenin is certainly right. There is no subtler or more severe means of overturning the existing basis of society(destroy capitalism) than to debauch the currency. The process engages all the hidden forces of economic law on the side of destruction, and it does it in a manner which not one man in a million is able to diagnose."
    John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
  • darktonedarktone Posts: 8,437 ✭✭✭


    << <i>About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created and continue to be created for collectors who are more discriminating in their toning choices because they still want flash. >>
      Iwog, I thought I was about the only one that realized that these rainbow toned coins were not around in the number that they are these days- I know for many this truth will hurt and they will argue against it but it's not my fight so I don't say much about it. mike
    • lclugzalclugza Posts: 568 ✭✭
      I once cracked out a blast white GSA dollar and put it ib plastic wrap. In just a few months, that coin had developed beautiful golden toning! It really doesn't take much time to tone a coin. Most of the "white" silver coins from 100+ years ago have probably been dipped, and most of the coins with "beautiful original toning" have probably been dipped and retoned! That is why I will not pay extra either for "blast white" or "beautifully toned" coins.
      image"Darkside" gold


    • << <i><< << About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created and continue to be created for collectors who are more discriminating in their toning choices because they still want flash. >>


      Iwog, I thought I was about the only one that realized that these rainbow toned coins were not around in the number that they are these days- I know for many this truth will hurt and they will argue against it but it's not my fight so I don't say much about it. mike

      >> >>



      I hate to tell you this guys - but all the genuinely toned coins were there. I'd say a good 85-90% of naturally toned coins that you see out in the market today are basically crap that's being hyped. These coins have come out since people started paying stupid money for toned material. And yes doctored coins have increased the population of toned material as well. But to imply that the majority of toned material was not around is innacurate and biased. This stuff was there - a lot of it was being dipped by dealers trying to make a quick buck. Let's face it - you're right in pointing out that there are some realities in the toned market that have to be reckoned with - but to go into denial about it is just plain silly.
    • darktonedarktone Posts: 8,437 ✭✭✭
      Frank, I don't expect to change anyone's mind on this subject. I think everyones way of thinking is pretty much set in stone on this issue. At a local Wisconsin Dells show a couple of months ago I saw dealers that had more rainbow toned morgans than I had ever seen in a years worth of shows in the late 70's and early 80's and this included the big midwest shows I attended. Maybe these coins toned naturally in the last 25 years or they were discovered in bag quantities?image This is good topic for discussion- I just hope it does not go sour as it usually does. I am taking a back seat for the rest of this thread and I will keep an open mind to all comments. mike image
    • A remarkably obtuse and pessimistic view to be sure. I am always fascinated by conscpiracy therorists. They always see a scam out of every corner. Why not just enjoy beautiful coins and enjoy the hobby to its fullest. I enjoy white blazers just as much as I enjoy toned monsters. Learn to recognize AT from NT,and pay whatever premium you want for a coin that affects you on a subjective level.
      The free market determines what premiums are paid for toned coins. Morgans dollars happen to be the second most popular series in U.S Numismatics after Lincoln cents, so they and their aspects will always be hyped, it does not warrant your pessimism, unless you really feel like it, but why not redirect your venting to the collecting of coins rather than the pessimism. Jbsteven put it well in his post.
    • Frank, I think you're diplomacy and fine manners are certainly admirable...but in this case you have gone to far in my opinion! This IWOG is just plain wrong...90% of what he is saying is BS!

      I do agree with his statement about not being able to create luster though.
      "Wars are really ugly! They're dirty
      and they're cold.
      I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
      Mary






      Best Franklin Website
    • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
      Within my first few years of collecting MS and PF coins in the later 1970's it was clear to me that dipped white was not popular. The coins had an unnatural look then and still do today (more dippings on the same coin). Finding a nice orig toned coin back then was not so difficult. Today it surely is as 95% of what's out there is blast white dipped (with dipping stains left behind), dull coins that toned too heavily, or retoned coins that were once dipped. As far as original whitish coins and attractive orig toned coins? Those account for 5% or less of all the coins. Those 5% are worth paying a fair premium for.

      I eagerly sought out that "originally toned" look in the 1970's and 1980's because it helped to prove the coin wasn't monkeyed with.
      Every dipping, even the first one, takes some luster off the coin. It is not a zero risk proposition. That is the real reason I look for original toned coins. Because they are just that, original, not screwed with, etc. At times, I'll purchase the retoned coin either because I cannot tell for sure how it got that way or it's nice just the way it is. But I do agree about not paying nutty premiums for just attractive toning. If you have one in a thousand toning, that's quite different.

      Sellers will always be looking for a game or a way to sell overgraded and abused coins to the public. But I don't see people lining up in droves to buy dull brown or black coins. Why those briefly sold for full value sight unseen in 1988-1990, it wasn't because people were being fooled, it was because the demand at the moment in time was for any coin in a slab. Didn't matter if it was pretty or ugly. It sold.
      The market in general has not been like that since. Though it is possible we could revisit that down the road if all the decent coins were gone and the number of buyers remaining outnumbered the sellers.

      roadrunner
      Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
    • does anyone think that people collected the nicely toned coins (Morgans) 10-30 years ago and are starng to bring them out now?

      I know a guy from Louisianna (not GSAGUY) that has done this and had roughly 200 NICELY toned Morgans slabbed recently and he is selling them off.

      Could there more of these types of collectors? IMO there are a few of them and they are cashing in on their insightfulness. This is one place these coins are coming from.
    • TonekillerTonekiller Posts: 1,308 ✭✭
      << These coins didn't exist before 1995. No, they didn't...they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created... >>




      BWAAAAAAHHHHHH! I have to go sit down now........heheheheheheh! imageimageimage

      TBT
    • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
      Higher prices bring out supply, simple as that. I cannot say what % of the new supply is AT but that's a different topic. During the 1975-1986 period very few seated liberty rarities of any date or denom appeared on the market. It took the slab game and a big run up in prices to pull these out of the woodwork. It still amazes me how many coins showed up and continue to show up. High prices bring out coins from hiding. No doubt the ten fold price increase in rainbow Morgans and many moderns in general, have forced coins into the market.

      roadrunner
      Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
    • Although this has nothing to do with Morgans, I have a perfect example of what's been happening to the toned market, at least with Franklins, which I feel I can speak to with some measure of knowledge. Five years ago and before, as I was putting my registry set together, white coins were all the rage. If you found a white Frankie from the 40's or 50's in pristine (MS65FBL or above) condition and white, people were paying moon money for it. Now, nicely mintset toned specimens were being poopooed, so, guess who picked up a number of great mint set toned pieces for next to nothing. Roll the clock forward now to 2003, and this is what you find:

      This piece of crap is offered on Ebay at 4 times the going rate and being touted as "wild toned"

      image

      These two beauties I picked up at $70 a piece 5 years ago - MS66FBL's both of them:

      image

      Now - is toning being hyped? Yes... Have artificially toned coins entered the market? Yes...

      But naturally toned coins have been around! You have to have an educated eye and some common sense to know what to buy and when.
    • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
      Funny thing about memories - we only remember the extremes and everything else just blends into the noise.

      Funny thing about coin markets - when something is in demand, dealers pay more in order to have the coins in stock. When nobody wants something, dealers pay less and thus don't tend to stock much of that item. Those items just sit in the back of the vault and aren't brought out very often.

      Logic tells me that if toned coins were not in demand twenty years ago, that they wouldn't be in dealer's cases because they would be slow sellers. Logic also dictates that when toned coins are in high demand, such as now, that high prices will bring more coins on the market and thus it would appear as if a fresh supply were created.
    • Iwog:
      You need copies of the following auctions that occured way before 1995 and you need to examine the toned coins in there.

      Virgil Brand
      Garrett
      Eliasberg
      Norweb

      All were way before 1995.
      (edited to correct the spelling from Brandt to Brand)
    • elwoodelwood Posts: 2,414
      The reason you didn't see these coins prior to the 90's is that they were not popular and when they did show up they were being dipped. It doesn't mean that they didn't exist. The reason you are seeing so many now, is the prices. It's amazing what will come out of the woodwork when prices go up. If prices go down these coins will start to dissappear. They will get put back and saved until prices increase again. If you pay $400.00 for a coin that is suddenly worth $50.00, will you sell it or put it away?
      I'm not saying that there are not thousands of AT coins, that's another reason you are seeing so many colors, but to paint it with such a broad brush and say they all have been created. This statement really shows a lack of knowledge about Numismatics and it's history.

      It appears that you are the one that can't handle the truth or refuses to admit the truth.

      I guess all the originally toned coins from some of the great collections like Clapp, Green, Garrett, etc, etc, etc... were all AT'd by these gentleman 50-200 yrs ago?
      Please visit my website prehistoricamerica.com www.visitiowa.org/pinecreekcabins
    • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
      I do agree with his statement about not being able to create luster though.

      Ahhh, the innocence of youth! ;D
    • darktonedarktone Posts: 8,437 ✭✭✭
      tradedollarnut, I looked for nicely tone morgans back in the late 70's and early 80's. I was in my teens to early 20's back then and those were all I looked for and they were very affordable. mike image
    • dragondragon Posts: 4,548 ✭✭
      wingedliberty,

      It's Virgil BRAND......not Brandt......BRAND......do not make that mistake again please.

      dragon
    • Dragon:
      You are correct, its been edited. Also, you might wanted to use a smily face at the end of your post, either that or lighten up, unless of course you have never made a spelling error in your life, then you're perfectly justified.image
    • elwoodelwood Posts: 2,414
      Maybe he's related??
      Please visit my website prehistoricamerica.com www.visitiowa.org/pinecreekcabins
    • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
      History? Link to the past? Sure, I'll admit there is plenty of that too but lets be serious here for a moment.........what history or link to the past is there with a three legged buffalo nickel?

      It's amazing how few people ask that question! I've never believed that the 3-Legged nickels were an accident. I believe that the nickels were struck to secretly commemorate the arrival of three legged creatures from outer space. Do not laugh! More info here.

      image



      Andy Lustig

      Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

      Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
    • coinlieutenantcoinlieutenant Posts: 9,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
      If you think luster cant be created.... check out a nice 1857-S 20$ Central America .....
    • IwogIwog Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭
      These discussions are always so fun!

      Clarifications:

      There have always been bright rainbow toned coins, however they were very rare prior to about 1995. Showing me a few high priced examples in high profile auctions just proves my point. Today every show is covered with these things and it's obvious to anyone who's been in the hobby more than 10 years that there's been a huge increase in numbers. Denial isn't a river in egypt.

      There isn't any conspiracy, but anyone who markets a product always jumps on a successful bandwagon. When fugly toned coins started to get hyped as "original" everyone who owned such coins wanted to get in on the act and make some money. It's simple human nature. Collectors will buy this junk as long as it seems like everyone is with the program.

      You cannot recognize AT from NT. There are some obvious examples of AT because it was done poorly, but there is no chemical difference between the two.

      You cannot create luster by dipping, buffing, waxing a coin. Once it's been eaten away by oxidation, it's gone forever.
      "...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
    • darktonedarktone Posts: 8,437 ✭✭✭


      << <i>If you think luster cant be created.... check out a nice 1857-S 20$ Central America ..... >>
        those coins have an odd look to them. mike
      • IwogIwog Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭
        The luster on those coins was intact, not created. Gold doesn't react with seawater so when all the crud was removed, the luster was revealed.
        "...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
      • foodudefoodude Posts: 3,552 ✭✭✭
        The luster on those coins was intact, not created. Gold doesn't react with seawater so when all the crud was removed, the luster was revealed.

        $20 Gold pieces (not the current bullion pieces) are not 100% gold. For example, the copper in those pieces does react. For example, the spots found on some gold coins is from copper that was not properly alloyed with the gold.
        Greg Allen Coins, LLC Show Schedule: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/573044/our-show-schedule-updated-10-2-16 Authorized dealer for NGC, PCGS, CAC, and QA. Member of PNG, RTT (Founding Platinum Member), FUN, MSNS, and NCBA (formerly ICTA); Life Member of ANA and CSNS. NCBA Board member. "GA3" on CCE.
      • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,485


        << <i>The luster on those coins was intact, not created. Gold doesn't react with seawater so when all the crud was removed, the luster was revealed >>

        Iwog, I think that depends upon the circumstances (water depth?, etc.). While I agree with you about the Central America coins, I have seen a good number of other uncirculated S-mint $20's that displayed varying degrees of "seawater damage" and which do not get holdered by the major grading services.
      • 1jester1jester Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭
        "I guess all the originally toned coins from some of the great collections like Clapp, Green, Garrett, etc, etc, etc... were all AT'd by these gentleman 50-200 yrs ago?" --elwood


        LOL!



        imageimageimage
        .....GOD
        image

        "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9

        "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5

        "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
      • IWOG

        I think you viewpoint is a little off. IMO



        << <i>You cannot recognize AT from NT >>



        now that's image


      • << <i>IWOG

        I think you viewpoint is a little off. IMO



        << <i>You cannot recognize AT from NT >>



        now that's image >>



        "JB" you get the Hit the Nail on the Head Award of the day!imageimage
      • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
        You cannot recognize AT from NT

        Sometimes you can do so with 99.9% certainty. Other times, it's not as obvious.

        However, it may actually be true that there is no way to recognize AT coins with 100% certainty.
        Andy Lustig

        Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

        Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
      • IwogIwog Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭
        Not only that, but NT and AT cannot even be defined. I challenge anyone to come up with a definition of AT that doesn't involve intent.
        "...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
      • 1jester1jester Posts: 8,638 ✭✭✭
        I don't like the proliferation of AT coins. However, I can't say with 100% certainty (maybe 80-90%) that I can tell the difference in all cases. I believe the doctors will get better, too. What are we to do about this tragedy?!image

        imageimageimage
        .....GOD
        image

        "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9

        "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5

        "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
      • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
        I challenge anyone to come up with a definition of AT that doesn't involve intent.

        Artificial toning is the patina caused by short term exposure to materials and conditions known to be inappropriate in the long term storage of coins.
        Andy Lustig

        Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

        Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
      • I will discuss this "horrible looking" AT toned Walker in another thread, once I have acquired it!image

        Mark might be familiar with this "butt ugly" coin!image
      • All of this is exactly why I do not like toned coins.

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