The truth about the toned coin market
Iwog
Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭
(I was going to write this in response to Wondercoin's post about 1970-1990 Morgans, but it expanded enough to deserve its own thread. The question is: Why was it that toned Morgans regardless of how pretty, were worth virtually -0- premium whatsoever?)
You want the truth? You want the truth???? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!
Okay, here's the truth........
Third party grading attacked the corner coin store by eliminating undergrading/overgrading margins which most dealers employed EXTENSIVELY. They would purchase most MS coins as AU, dip them nice, and sell them as Gem or whatever they could convince buyers they were graded at. I watched a large number of coin stores go out of business in the 1980s. In my own area I counted 5 coin shops within short driving distance, and they were all gone by 1990. It wasn't just slabs, but the silver market was on a 10 year decline during this time making dealer stock a depreciating asset. MS65 prices were going bonkers during this time as well, and it all made it very difficult for dealers. (awwwww....poor dealers)
Toned coins were actually being pushed in the early 1980s, and I remember a series of Coin World articles showing people the virtues of colored coins. Back then it wasn't a matter of creating a premium for toned coins, but making them acceptable at all. You see, brilliant silver has always been easy to sell and still is. Dealer stock always tends toward dull and lifeless (and dark) pieces as the cherry coins get sniped away. Since grade inflation was no longer an easy way to make a buck, coin dealers needed a new trick and toned coins was it.
The scheme? Convince all coin collectors that toned coins are the way to go!! They are super cool man, all dark and pretty and kinda brownish. Who would possibly have the nerve to question all these coin dealer experts telling us that luster was dead and silver sulfide was the way to go? In the early 1990s I saw the most FABULOUS nonsense. For example you were lucky to get spots in a proof set, how ugly haze was the beginnings of monster toning, and how only new and uneducated collectors preferred blast white brilliant silver to dull brown. The funny thing is that I don't remember the word "original" being used much in the early 90s because the game was finding a dog with few/hidden contact marks and making the MS65 or MS66 grade for the jackpot. Coin dealers loved it all since they could now purchase estates full of oxidized coins, convince the seller they were junk, and put em in slabs for a nice profit. Grade inflation was back!
It wasn't long until the cracks started appearing in the fugly coin market. Believe it or not, there were actually people preaching that buying a coin unseen was perfectly okay as long as it was certified. At first this was accepted, but this quickly changed when collectors learned that the dogs were being dumped on the bluesheet fugly market, while the nice stuff was being sold at a premium at the coin shows and retail shops. This was about the time that premium grade slabs were falling rapidly and collectors were generally abandoning the hobby in droves. I remember a lot of misery during the 1990s, and a lot of it came from the absolute JUNK sold in MS66 slabs. And most of these of course were darkly toned.
About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created and continue to be created for collectors who are more discriminating in their toning choices because they still want flash. The unfortunate result of sky high prices for some of these creations is that lots of fugly era coins are being pushed AGAIN as nice toners, but with a twist.........now it's not the look, it's the ORIGINALITY that's being sold. Who wants a coin that was messed with, when you can have one oxidized to death in it's ORIGINAL cardboard holder!!! Touting coins as original is actually a very recent development invented by......you guessed it, hundreds of dealers with the same fugly slabs that are left over after the blast white brilliant cherries are sniped out. Almost all coins sold as original are dipped and retoned, as this is extremely easy to spot after you've dipped a few coins on your own. Hmmmmm.....funny how dealers violently discourage this..........
Conclusion??? The truth is that collectors generally collect objects because there is someone else who wants the same object. History? Link to the past? Sure, I'll admit there is plenty of that too but lets be serious here for a moment.........what history or link to the past is there with a three legged buffalo nickel? A mint employee ground a bit too much off the die so it looks a little different then all the other nickels. Are we really appreciating the history of a mint employee with a grinding wheel, or do we want this coin because everyone ELSE wants this coin, and it's a pleasure to know that YOU'VE got it? The answer is obvious.
So what happened with toned Morgans and other toned coins? Dealers hyped it, collectors bought it, and money changed hands. It's not art, it's oxidation. Oxidation is always ADDED to a coin after it leaves the mint, thus oxidation can ALWAYS be added to more and more coins until the market is saturated. People SHAMELESSLY talk about leaving coins outside on fences and in old cardboard holders and in gun cabinets in THIS forum!! How long until everyone has all the toned coins they want and the market goes away? How long until everyone is left holding that $300 Lady Di Beanie Baby and suddenly realize there aren't any buyers left?
One final note.......luster cannot be added to a coin, toning can. Toning hides luster, or covers up the fact its destroyed. Some of you think you're smarter than previous generations of coin collectors, but which generation was paying $400 for a $25 face value quarter bag just a few years ago? Marketing is a wonderful thing.........for the seller.
You want the truth? You want the truth???? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!
Okay, here's the truth........
Third party grading attacked the corner coin store by eliminating undergrading/overgrading margins which most dealers employed EXTENSIVELY. They would purchase most MS coins as AU, dip them nice, and sell them as Gem or whatever they could convince buyers they were graded at. I watched a large number of coin stores go out of business in the 1980s. In my own area I counted 5 coin shops within short driving distance, and they were all gone by 1990. It wasn't just slabs, but the silver market was on a 10 year decline during this time making dealer stock a depreciating asset. MS65 prices were going bonkers during this time as well, and it all made it very difficult for dealers. (awwwww....poor dealers)
Toned coins were actually being pushed in the early 1980s, and I remember a series of Coin World articles showing people the virtues of colored coins. Back then it wasn't a matter of creating a premium for toned coins, but making them acceptable at all. You see, brilliant silver has always been easy to sell and still is. Dealer stock always tends toward dull and lifeless (and dark) pieces as the cherry coins get sniped away. Since grade inflation was no longer an easy way to make a buck, coin dealers needed a new trick and toned coins was it.
The scheme? Convince all coin collectors that toned coins are the way to go!! They are super cool man, all dark and pretty and kinda brownish. Who would possibly have the nerve to question all these coin dealer experts telling us that luster was dead and silver sulfide was the way to go? In the early 1990s I saw the most FABULOUS nonsense. For example you were lucky to get spots in a proof set, how ugly haze was the beginnings of monster toning, and how only new and uneducated collectors preferred blast white brilliant silver to dull brown. The funny thing is that I don't remember the word "original" being used much in the early 90s because the game was finding a dog with few/hidden contact marks and making the MS65 or MS66 grade for the jackpot. Coin dealers loved it all since they could now purchase estates full of oxidized coins, convince the seller they were junk, and put em in slabs for a nice profit. Grade inflation was back!
It wasn't long until the cracks started appearing in the fugly coin market. Believe it or not, there were actually people preaching that buying a coin unseen was perfectly okay as long as it was certified. At first this was accepted, but this quickly changed when collectors learned that the dogs were being dumped on the bluesheet fugly market, while the nice stuff was being sold at a premium at the coin shows and retail shops. This was about the time that premium grade slabs were falling rapidly and collectors were generally abandoning the hobby in droves. I remember a lot of misery during the 1990s, and a lot of it came from the absolute JUNK sold in MS66 slabs. And most of these of course were darkly toned.
About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created and continue to be created for collectors who are more discriminating in their toning choices because they still want flash. The unfortunate result of sky high prices for some of these creations is that lots of fugly era coins are being pushed AGAIN as nice toners, but with a twist.........now it's not the look, it's the ORIGINALITY that's being sold. Who wants a coin that was messed with, when you can have one oxidized to death in it's ORIGINAL cardboard holder!!! Touting coins as original is actually a very recent development invented by......you guessed it, hundreds of dealers with the same fugly slabs that are left over after the blast white brilliant cherries are sniped out. Almost all coins sold as original are dipped and retoned, as this is extremely easy to spot after you've dipped a few coins on your own. Hmmmmm.....funny how dealers violently discourage this..........
Conclusion??? The truth is that collectors generally collect objects because there is someone else who wants the same object. History? Link to the past? Sure, I'll admit there is plenty of that too but lets be serious here for a moment.........what history or link to the past is there with a three legged buffalo nickel? A mint employee ground a bit too much off the die so it looks a little different then all the other nickels. Are we really appreciating the history of a mint employee with a grinding wheel, or do we want this coin because everyone ELSE wants this coin, and it's a pleasure to know that YOU'VE got it? The answer is obvious.
So what happened with toned Morgans and other toned coins? Dealers hyped it, collectors bought it, and money changed hands. It's not art, it's oxidation. Oxidation is always ADDED to a coin after it leaves the mint, thus oxidation can ALWAYS be added to more and more coins until the market is saturated. People SHAMELESSLY talk about leaving coins outside on fences and in old cardboard holders and in gun cabinets in THIS forum!! How long until everyone has all the toned coins they want and the market goes away? How long until everyone is left holding that $300 Lady Di Beanie Baby and suddenly realize there aren't any buyers left?
One final note.......luster cannot be added to a coin, toning can. Toning hides luster, or covers up the fact its destroyed. Some of you think you're smarter than previous generations of coin collectors, but which generation was paying $400 for a $25 face value quarter bag just a few years ago? Marketing is a wonderful thing.........for the seller.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
5
Comments
For someone to compare brown ugly toned coins with fantastically toned Morgans, commems, or any other coin that has attained natural toning merely shows a bias. Toning, in it's purest form, enhances the look of a coin and gives it character. That's my own opinion. When you study the patterns and intricacies of toning, you come to appreciate just how delicate a balance you have to have to get a monster toned coin. That being said, I agree with you that when the SCUM OF THE EARTH DOCTORS came into the scene, well - at least came out from hiding, the market for these coins suffered and continues to suffer greatly.
Bottom line, there's ample opportunity for both lovers of white coins and lovers of toned coins to co-exist. In my mind the whole thing boils down to the education factor. If you buy schlock coins with bad toning thinking they're monsters - shame on you. Go back to reading and studying. However, if you see something extraordinary, something that's truly unique because it's made by the natural interaction of silver with the elments, it can be a sight to behold.
With hopefully GSAGUY's permission - give me something like this, and I'll chose it over it's white counterpart any day.
Frank
Tbig
And, putting aside your viewpoint on how the toned arena may have actually "gotten started", the reality is it is likely here to stay for a long time to come. My fascination is with the timing of the shift and to some extent the metaphysics if you will. Similar to America going from rural to urban - reasons aside, folks are here to stay in the big cities.
Wondercoin
Dip can make some great luster!
Despite the toned craze as of late (and I admit that I love it as much as anyone!), there is still such a small, small, small percentage of pretty "naturally" toned coins out there (vis mint bag/album/mint set, NOT oven/basement/blowtorch). And when you line them up with their white counterparts, the bottomline is that they just have more VAVOOM!
And isn't it interesting that luster (after eye appeal marks, and strike) seems to be the last aspect of grading that most people understand ... how often is it that people dispute the grade or getting a BB focuses on the marks, etc. when the luster does not make it; or can't understand why a coin with superb luster has a few more marks (of course remembering that that there are minimums for which no other aspect of the coin can save a higher grade) than is seen a coin with average luster ...
edited to add a mising word "it"
know what I mean Vern?
even then, its not a cut-and-dry issue.
i,ve learned in the past few years that toned coins are easy, er can be easily made.
while booming luster cant, outside of the minting process.
sometimes these days it seems that the degree of luster on a coin takes a backseat
to the degree of colors a coin exhibts as the main focal point on the `originality` of a coin.
personally i feel luster is king, followed by strike,(those two sorta go hand in hand, without a great strike, there isnt any great luster really) then surface preservation.
color can give a coin some eye-appeal no doubt, but its not the overriding issue IMO.
I won't give anyone that much credit. The tendencies of the market change. There are lots of factors as to why, but I think your reason is a bit off. Dipping, and white, untoned coins was definitely the rage at one time, and it fell out of favor, a bit, for a large portion of the collecting community. It hasn't died, and is still very popular with a lot of collectors.
I think the toned coin market has softened a bit, but the outrageous stuff is still very strong among a core group (how large that core is could be argued extensively) of collectors. I'm not sure if white coins in general fell out of favor, but more the dipped white, dull look that was left over from an improper dip.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
<< <i>These coins didn't exist before 1995. No, they didn't...they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created... >>
I have to disagree. Yes, many toned coins have been created but many are natural. I was having a discussion with a dealer a couple weeks ago about this very subject. I had just purchased my first end roll toner and got on the subject of toning. He was recalling and regretting all the beautifully toned coins (mostly Morgans) he had dipped in the 1980's and wished he could have them now. If we only knew them what we know now.
So, to say that these coins didn't exist before 1995 and that they were NOT THERE and all where created. Well, that makes no sense at all. Unless you mean that Artificial Toning didn't exist before 1995.
More blast white coins have been created than toned coins.
What should a 100-200 year old silver coin really look like. They WILL NOT STAY WHITE.
I wondered why things seemed so strange, all those coins I bought back in the 80's and all along I was in the twilight zone and it was really 1996!! It is nice to have such an incredibly intelligent person on these boards to let us know how things really are (thanks professor) instead of having to rely on all those twilight zone memories.
<< <i>These coins didn't exist before 1995. No, they didn't...they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created... >>
Good Lord!! I don't know whether to laugh or cry over this ludicrous statement, so I guess I'll just go with your lead. I don't think you are full of it, I'm absolutely certain you are full of it.
For better or worse, I go back quite a ways. I can recall my Uncle, who had a collection of reknown, back in the 50's and 60's spending evenings dipping off all those nasty colors, some of them on both sides. I remember him comenting about the crescents and how they were formed and then.....................they were gone forever.
I liked them, liked all the rainbow colors and told him so. He gave me that knowing smile and a nod of the head that silently said that I was just a kid and being the adult that he was, he was doing the right thing. Sort of like shooting Old Yeller, it had to be done. Sentiment played no role here.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created and continue to be created for collectors who are more discriminating in their toning choices because they still want flash. >>
Iwog, I thought I was about the only one that realized that these rainbow toned coins were not around in the number that they are these days- I know for many this truth will hurt and they will argue against it but it's not my fight so I don't say much about it. mike
<< <i><< << About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! They were created and continue to be created for collectors who are more discriminating in their toning choices because they still want flash. >>
Iwog, I thought I was about the only one that realized that these rainbow toned coins were not around in the number that they are these days- I know for many this truth will hurt and they will argue against it but it's not my fight so I don't say much about it. mike
>> >>
I hate to tell you this guys - but all the genuinely toned coins were there. I'd say a good 85-90% of naturally toned coins that you see out in the market today are basically crap that's being hyped. These coins have come out since people started paying stupid money for toned material. And yes doctored coins have increased the population of toned material as well. But to imply that the majority of toned material was not around is innacurate and biased. This stuff was there - a lot of it was being dipped by dealers trying to make a quick buck. Let's face it - you're right in pointing out that there are some realities in the toned market that have to be reckoned with - but to go into denial about it is just plain silly.
The free market determines what premiums are paid for toned coins. Morgans dollars happen to be the second most popular series in U.S Numismatics after Lincoln cents, so they and their aspects will always be hyped, it does not warrant your pessimism, unless you really feel like it, but why not redirect your venting to the collecting of coins rather than the pessimism. Jbsteven put it well in his post.
I do agree with his statement about not being able to create luster though.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
I eagerly sought out that "originally toned" look in the 1970's and 1980's because it helped to prove the coin wasn't monkeyed with.
Every dipping, even the first one, takes some luster off the coin. It is not a zero risk proposition. That is the real reason I look for original toned coins. Because they are just that, original, not screwed with, etc. At times, I'll purchase the retoned coin either because I cannot tell for sure how it got that way or it's nice just the way it is. But I do agree about not paying nutty premiums for just attractive toning. If you have one in a thousand toning, that's quite different.
Sellers will always be looking for a game or a way to sell overgraded and abused coins to the public. But I don't see people lining up in droves to buy dull brown or black coins. Why those briefly sold for full value sight unseen in 1988-1990, it wasn't because people were being fooled, it was because the demand at the moment in time was for any coin in a slab. Didn't matter if it was pretty or ugly. It sold.
The market in general has not been like that since. Though it is possible we could revisit that down the road if all the decent coins were gone and the number of buyers remaining outnumbered the sellers.
roadrunner
I know a guy from Louisianna (not GSAGUY) that has done this and had roughly 200 NICELY toned Morgans slabbed recently and he is selling them off.
Could there more of these types of collectors? IMO there are a few of them and they are cashing in on their insightfulness. This is one place these coins are coming from.
BWAAAAAAHHHHHH! I have to go sit down now........heheheheheheh!
TBT
roadrunner
This piece of crap is offered on Ebay at 4 times the going rate and being touted as "wild toned"
These two beauties I picked up at $70 a piece 5 years ago - MS66FBL's both of them:
Now - is toning being hyped? Yes... Have artificially toned coins entered the market? Yes...
But naturally toned coins have been around! You have to have an educated eye and some common sense to know what to buy and when.
Funny thing about coin markets - when something is in demand, dealers pay more in order to have the coins in stock. When nobody wants something, dealers pay less and thus don't tend to stock much of that item. Those items just sit in the back of the vault and aren't brought out very often.
Logic tells me that if toned coins were not in demand twenty years ago, that they wouldn't be in dealer's cases because they would be slow sellers. Logic also dictates that when toned coins are in high demand, such as now, that high prices will bring more coins on the market and thus it would appear as if a fresh supply were created.
You need copies of the following auctions that occured way before 1995 and you need to examine the toned coins in there.
Virgil Brand
Garrett
Eliasberg
Norweb
All were way before 1995.
(edited to correct the spelling from Brandt to Brand)
I'm not saying that there are not thousands of AT coins, that's another reason you are seeing so many colors, but to paint it with such a broad brush and say they all have been created. This statement really shows a lack of knowledge about Numismatics and it's history.
It appears that you are the one that can't handle the truth or refuses to admit the truth.
I guess all the originally toned coins from some of the great collections like Clapp, Green, Garrett, etc, etc, etc... were all AT'd by these gentleman 50-200 yrs ago?
Ahhh, the innocence of youth! ;D
It's Virgil BRAND......not Brandt......BRAND......do not make that mistake again please.
dragon
You are correct, its been edited. Also, you might wanted to use a smily face at the end of your post, either that or lighten up, unless of course you have never made a spelling error in your life, then you're perfectly justified.
It's amazing how few people ask that question! I've never believed that the 3-Legged nickels were an accident. I believe that the nickels were struck to secretly commemorate the arrival of three legged creatures from outer space. Do not laugh! More info here.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
siliconvalleycoins.com
Clarifications:
There have always been bright rainbow toned coins, however they were very rare prior to about 1995. Showing me a few high priced examples in high profile auctions just proves my point. Today every show is covered with these things and it's obvious to anyone who's been in the hobby more than 10 years that there's been a huge increase in numbers. Denial isn't a river in egypt.
There isn't any conspiracy, but anyone who markets a product always jumps on a successful bandwagon. When fugly toned coins started to get hyped as "original" everyone who owned such coins wanted to get in on the act and make some money. It's simple human nature. Collectors will buy this junk as long as it seems like everyone is with the program.
You cannot recognize AT from NT. There are some obvious examples of AT because it was done poorly, but there is no chemical difference between the two.
You cannot create luster by dipping, buffing, waxing a coin. Once it's been eaten away by oxidation, it's gone forever.
<< <i>If you think luster cant be created.... check out a nice 1857-S 20$ Central America ..... >>
those coins have an odd look to them. mike
$20 Gold pieces (not the current bullion pieces) are not 100% gold. For example, the copper in those pieces does react. For example, the spots found on some gold coins is from copper that was not properly alloyed with the gold.
<< <i>The luster on those coins was intact, not created. Gold doesn't react with seawater so when all the crud was removed, the luster was revealed >>
Iwog, I think that depends upon the circumstances (water depth?, etc.). While I agree with you about the Central America coins, I have seen a good number of other uncirculated S-mint $20's that displayed varying degrees of "seawater damage" and which do not get holdered by the major grading services.
LOL!
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
I think you viewpoint is a little off. IMO
<< <i>You cannot recognize AT from NT >>
now that's
<< <i>IWOG
I think you viewpoint is a little off. IMO
<< <i>You cannot recognize AT from NT >>
now that's
"JB" you get the Hit the Nail on the Head Award of the day!
Sometimes you can do so with 99.9% certainty. Other times, it's not as obvious.
However, it may actually be true that there is no way to recognize AT coins with 100% certainty.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Artificial toning is the patina caused by short term exposure to materials and conditions known to be inappropriate in the long term storage of coins.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Mark might be familiar with this "butt ugly" coin!