@Justacommeman said:
Thread should be renamed " Half Truths about the the toned coin market with exteme bias and prejudiced examples" but it probably wouldn't fit in the thread header text wise . It certainly would be more accurate.
mark
I'm sorry you feel that way but I've seen far too many coins with the luster completely destroyed, I mean to the point where you couldn't find hot and cold areas under a 5000 watt arc lamp................sitting in MS66 and above holders. According to every grading standard ever published in the industry, this should be impossible.
I think it's absurd now and I thought it was absurd when I started this thread 13 years ago. Nothing makes a coin more beautiful than bright original luster.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
Graders will see coins one at a time but when a pattern is noticed or the doctor is known, it should be raised. This has happened for numerous coins in the past.
And since grading is based on Market Acceptability, for this to work, the market needs to speak.
NGC wont touch these coins. Matter of fact NGC became much more stringent on modern toners at one point refusing to grade wildly toned ASEs - almost all of them ended up in details holders (see link below). PCGS still grades them though. Do you honestly believe that TPGs dont have their ears to the ground in the industry and know what is going on ?
I had 13 out of 13 modern toners not grade at NGC and I then sent them off to PCGS where they all graded. So now all my modern toners go to PCGS.
****dumb statement:**** First why is anyone's responsibility to warn PCGS about anything ?
I once owned a beautiful 26S Oregon trail PCGS MS67. The colors were glorious and looked as good as good could. I watched in horror as the color changed right before my eyes (and I had several witnesses) in less then 30 days after (after it had been slabbed apparently). The coin turned a horrible dead gray.
I bought the coin from a well known dealer (who has been in and out of trouble w/PCGS ever since). I told PCGS and they went right after him and pretty much started rejecting all his toners. Maybe he went to others to submit, but in the end they sent him a strong message.
This coin after it was made fooled everyone. I know my toning as well as anyone. That's the key-when these go through grading, they look so good. It takes a little time for them to turn.
by not telling pcgs who knows how many others would have been stung by the guy's work. I forget if this was before or after pcgs nailed him for adding heads to standing quarters.
It's always funny to see the "toning police" on these boards. Some even insinuating just about anything out there with color on it is AT becuase "they know". Maybe people get offended by the word "natural toned"... so maybe let's use "original toned". Orignal "bag toned" original "album toned" original "end roll" toned, original "potato baked" tone, original "gass" toned or whatever substance it came into contact with.
I personally loved toned coins. I enjoy looking at them and trying to imagine how they toned the way they did. I imagine that 100+ year old Morgan making it's trip sitting against the canvas from the mint to the vault to somebody's basement, or sitting wrapped up in an old tissue in grandpas sock drawer, or in dads old Raymond Wayte board. All "originally toned" by whatever they came in contact with.
How many here have ever been fortunate enough to witness an original unopened bag of Morgans being liberated from their hibernation? Have you seen that toning first hand? There is NO doc good enough to replicate a 130 year old "thick" (key word) textile or brilliantly bag toned coin. Yes there is lots of AT stuff out there and some of it is indeed slabbed. It's like every other part of numismatics, knowledge is your friend. If anybody is collecting coins....be it toned or white or whatever as an investment,or anything other than fun, than they should take time to learn the characteristics. The true toning afficianodos know that in many of the series where color can bring a premium i.e. Morgan Dollars, Linolns, Mercs, Rosies etc. and most often even within the series only specific dates that will even have a chance at toning. They also know what the true characteristics are becuase they have looked at thousands of original coins over the years.
Look at the recent craze and premiums being paid for the toned modern ASE's. Quite a few artificial AT, quite a few acclerated toned, and many original toned. Yes "original toned" from the old PCI holders they resided in, or the velvet lined display boxes they were stored in, or the cardboard Littleton holders,or whatever. Bottom line is people like them and there are bidding them up be it raw or slabbed. Why? Becuase they like them! They are not buying them because of numismatic value or any hope of future numismatic value they are buying them becuase they like them.
Everyone here has seen coins body bagged in "questionable color" slabs still get bid up for a premium. Maybe the reason that some are so outspoken on "toned" coins is because they are concerned that some newbie will get ripped off buying what someone is selling as a "monster toned" coin or maybe,just maybe they have been ripped off themselves. Like any other part of Numismatics it's buyer beware. If anything is positive about many of these AT coins like the ASE's that are out there is that they may actually be bringing some new people to the numismatic market that may never have even been interested in coins because they are boring and white and all look the same. I know someone that hoarded silver bullion and ended up getting hooked on toned numismatic coins after he discovered the crazy thing that happened to some blast white silver Libertads he had stashed away for 15 years.
I've looked at the same comments being rehashed on toned coins for 30+ years all saying the same thing....."It's a fad","the toned market will crash", "once the Docs show what they can do start to finish everybody's stuff will be worthless". Blah blah blah. The overall numismatics market has been soft for awhile now but the quality toned stuff is still strong and always will be. Go look at the last Legend auction. The fact is the higher end toned stuff is in strong hands now and its gettting harder and harder to find quality nicely toned stuff. There are some new big hitters that are paying the 3k to 10k and up huge premiums for more or less common date "monster toned" coins and they are doing it because they enjoy them and want to own them not because, nor do they even expect to make a profit on them. Pretty much every dealer I know that rolls thier eyes or doesn't want anything to do with toned coins has that one coin with amazing color stashed in their safe that they will never part with let alone let you see becuase they know you will make a crazy offer and pry it from their hands.
Wether it be white,red,blue,green, yellow, proof, business strike,silver copper or gold.....can't we all just get along?
Toned Coins Matter
Cheers!
If CDN bid for an MS65 1883-O Dollar is $150 I have no interest in paying multiples of that or even a premium for a toned coin. Most buyers on the bourse want coins that are brilliant, wellstruck, with super luster that look as pristine as the day they left the mint. I see toning as a preference vs white brilliant coins, not something I would pay a premium for. Frankly, the toned coin is further along in its oxidation process. While I might bid $140 for a brilliant coin, $100-$120 might be my offer on a toner as this is a specialist market and YMMV.
Toning is a fancy name for tarnish which results from oxidation with the atmosphere. Eventually the coin will turn dark; its a foregone conclusion. Read the Coin Preservation Handbook.
I remember buying a roll of silver halves in the late 1960's and as a courtesy the dealer dipped them in mass (in jewel luster) right there in the shop as this was a common practice, I did not even have to request it. I remember being set up at the Greater Houston show sometime in the mid 1990's. A customer was looking at a slabbed Morgan Dollar - NGC MS64. The obverse was brilliant, but when he saw the toned reverse he put the coin back. He did buy a brilliant, white coin with super luster. Later on when ebay came out it did well with a toning hobbyist on the toned piece and was glad to get rid of it. Many coins in a holder for several years develop haze and need a dip. I have an OGH MS65 dollar and it has developed some light haze and plan to crack it out, dip, resubmit, and hopefully MS66.
Yes I can relate to people paying a significant premium for toned coins like the beanie babies craze. I definitely am not a fan of toned coins especially those with spots. many look they were run over with a truck. AS techniques for coin preservation future collectors will most likely prefer brilliant white coins and this will be the norm if a vacuum holder ever becomes available, especially if self grading and available at Walmart in ten pacs for $10.
@caddyshack said:
****dumb statement:**** First why is anyone's responsibility to warn PCGS about anything ?
I bought the coin from a well known dealer (who has been in and out of trouble w/PCGS ever since). I told PCGS and they went right after him and pretty much started rejecting all his toners. Maybe he went to others to submit, but in the end they sent him a strong message.
Did PCGS buy back all of your dealer's submissions ? They certainly know what coins he submitted prior to your complaint.
I dont drink the PCGS kool-aid. Im a collector and I can care less if a coin is PCGS, NGC, ANACS or even PCI or IGC. I can tell the difference between AT, NT and MA. If PCGS decides they want to make certain coins market acceptable, that is their decision to do so.
You make the assumption that they dont know. After hundreds of coins with the same look all being graded I have to assume that they do. It wouldnt be that difficult for any TPG to add on a few toned coin experts to their grading staff to make sure AT coins dont get into their plastic. Ask yourself why they havent....
@Justacommeman said:
Thread should be renamed " Half Truths about the the toned coin market with exteme bias and prejudiced examples" but it probably wouldn't fit in the thread header text wise . It certainly would be more accurate.
mark
I'm sorry you feel that way but I've seen far too many coins with the luster completely destroyed, I mean to the point where you couldn't find hot and cold areas under a 5000 watt arc lamp................sitting in MS66 and above holders. According to every grading standard ever published in the industry, this should be impossible.
I think it's absurd now and I thought it was absurd when I started this thread 13 years ago. Nothing makes a coin more beautiful than bright original luster.
Love luster and demand all my coins have them in abundance but white coins bore the heck out of me ( couple of exceptions. Cameo's and Peace dollars). Nothing like toned luster bombs IMO. To each is own. I'm ok with that.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Toning is technically tarnish yes but not all is tarnish is caused by oxidation as you suggest. That's why mom had to polish fine silverware everytime she used it because it tarnished from just being exposed to the air and dads cigar and pipe smoke.Beautifully toned (silver)coins have actually come in contact with something i.e. an old mint canvas bag or some sort of paper or holder that containes sulpher with a reduced amount of exposure to oxygen. The sulfer compounds that exist within the silver react to the external source forms the layer of "tarnish" the length of time it is exposed to that environment the "thicker" (key word) the toning will get. It's that reaction along with the thickness of the "tarnish" that cuases light to be "diffracted" and cuase the different colors our eyeballs see. And maybe therein lies the condundrum of why some of us like toned coins and some do not. Maybe the colors just look different to our eyeballs. Personally I would prefer the below one of a kind "tarnished" 1880-S that looks like it was run over by a truck and still has tire tracks on it, than have one of the many million blast white 1880-S out there. I would display it right next to my limited edition Valentine Beanie.
Peace!
Love luster and demand all my coins have them in abundance but white coins bore the heck out of me ( couple of exceptions. Cameo's and Peace dollars). Nothing like toned luster bombs IMO. To each is own. I'm ok with that.
mark
I agree with you that an abundance of luster under toning can be very nice. However do you have an explanation for something like this? What grade do you think it is? The one after it is what my coin looks like.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
Love luster and demand all my coins have them in abundance but white coins bore the heck out of me ( couple of exceptions. Cameo's and Peace dollars). Nothing like toned luster bombs IMO. To each is own. I'm ok with that.
mark
I agree with you that an abundance of luster under toning can be very nice. However do you have an explanation for something like this? What grade do you think it is? The one after it is what my coin looks like.
Technically the the grade is..."MS Details Altered or Cleaned Surfaces Dipped"
Now this is the coin! MS 67* brought $13,000.00 over the average MS67. Qaulity toners will always bring a premium. So much to look at and enjoy on that coin and imagine where it has been. This coin has charachter!
Technically the the grade is..."MS Details Altered or Cleaned Surfaces Dipped"
That would be my opinion as well.
However the real grade is PCGS MS68. I'd love for someone to tell me how this is possible.
so how does a buyback work on that then?
That's the big question isn't it. You can objectively prove through scientific standards that the luster is gone. You can also objectively prove that you can't have a grade over MS64 with impaired luster. So does a grading company finally decide to enforce grading standards that are 50 years old and eat millions of dollars worth of impaired coins or do they defend the grade?
I think they defend the grade. Furthermore 'market standards' is so broad and objective that it covers whatever decision they will make. "yes it's impaired but the market will buy it as MS68 so it's MS68."
But why does the market say it's MS68? Because it was hyped and a grading company said it was MS68 thus completing the circle.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
@caddyshack said:
I'm confused, how can you see luster via an image??? how can u grade via an image?
the argument of the poster is becoming more ridiculous
Actually I think it's even easier to see luster (or lack of it) on a photograph than in person. That's why brilliant coins are difficult to photograph. There will be very sharp hot and cold areas of the coin and the only way to bring out details across the coin is from multiple light sources.
In the above photograph the cartwheel spoke is clearly visible on the blast white coin. In fact there is two cartwheel spokes because I used two light sources. In the other photograph there are none. Now it would be entirely reasonable to say "Well this is a light box photograph so that's why there aren't any hot and cold zones in the luster." however this is a PCGS Trueview photograph. As you can see below, the luster and the hot and cold zones in the luster come out perfectly:
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
@caddyshack said:
I'm confused, how can you see luster via an image??? how can u grade via an image?
the argument of the poster is becoming more ridiculous
Of course it is. I hope he will eventually tucker himself out but I have my doubts.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@caddyshack said:
****dumb statement:**** First why is anyone's responsibility to warn PCGS about anything ?
I bought the coin from a well known dealer (who has been in and out of trouble w/PCGS ever since). I told PCGS and they went right after him and pretty much started rejecting all his toners. Maybe he went to others to submit, but in the end they sent him a strong message.
Did PCGS buy back all of your dealer's submissions ? They certainly know what coins he submitted prior to your complaint.
I dont drink the PCGS kool-aid. Im a collector and I can care less if a coin is PCGS, NGC, ANACS or even PCI or IGC. I can tell the difference between AT, NT and MA. If PCGS decides they want to make certain coins market acceptable, that is their decision to do so.
You make the assumption that they dont know. After hundreds of coins with the same look all being graded I have to assume that they do. It wouldnt be that difficult for any TPG to add on a few toned coin experts to their grading staff to make sure AT coins dont get into their plastic. Ask yourself why they havent....
There are certainly cases where the TPGs either don't know about AT or don't know about the market's non-acceptance until coins are identified in public discussion after which they take corrective action so discussion is definitely useful. I believe it's the community's responsibility to notify TPGs of non-market acceptable / AT coins when they are identified to assist in protecting the PCGS brand and the hobby from doctors and others seeking to damage PCGS and the hobby.
Anyone remember this coin when it was first discussed on this forum?
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
There are certainly cases where the TPGs either don't know about AT or don't know about the market's non-acceptance until coins are identified in public discussion after which they take corrective action so discussion is definitely useful. I believe it's the community's responsibility to notify TPGs of non-market acceptable / AT coins when they are identified to assist in protecting the PCGS brand and the hobby from doctors and others seeking to damage PCGS and the hobby.
Anyone remember this coin when it was first discussed on this forum?
>
The images are above... Google is your friend. You can do the homework and do what you want with the information. No one is stopping you... Lets see if PCGS goes around and buys back all of his toners to protect their brand and the hobby...
There are certainly cases where the TPGs either don't know about AT or don't know about the market's non-acceptance until coins are identified in public discussion after which they take corrective action so discussion is definitely useful. I believe it's the community's responsibility to notify TPGs of non-market acceptable / AT coins when they are identified to assist in protecting the PCGS brand and the hobby from doctors and others seeking to damage PCGS and the hobby.
Anyone remember this coin when it was first discussed on this forum?
The images are above... Google is your friend. You can do the homework and do what you want with the information. No one is stopping you... Lets see if PCGS goes around and buys back all of his toners to protect their brand and the hobby...
And in about 1974, Fred Malone had an original roll of 1872-S half dimes. I think it was Jack Beymer who had a roll of 1892-S Barber halves. Ah...those were the days.
not possible.
the trouble with the discussion and claimed "Knowledge" by a lot of collectors is the same thing wrong with this statement by HRH, whose expertise I would never impugn. things are not always as we remember and not always as legitimate as we trust them to be. if I believe this link google.com/patents/US779292 then it follows that the rolls mentioned aren't original, they are "put together" rolls and to my way of thinking that calls all other assertions and memory reasonably into question.
in other words, if rolls were put together and passed off as original when that wasn't actually possible, what about toned coins?? once confidence is gained anything is possible. I agree fully that there are plenty of originally toned coins which probably existed prior to the 1960's but it is almost a foregone conclusion that those numbers diminished during that decade and the ones to follow. given the dynamics of the several Silver spot price increases and the amount of coins melted I come up with two reason why there are currently so many nicely toned coins --- 1). collectors in the past went against prevailing trends and kept them hidden away where they remained unchanged for decades, 2). they have been created.
...this thread is really bringing the Alt's out...hmmm I wonder how many of them were originally involved in this conversation??? Cocaine was around for many years before some genius figured out how to cook it into crack-cocaine. I like toned coins but even I'm smart enough to know they left the US Mint blast white...if I knew how to cook a blast white Morgan dollar into a Sunnywood type specimen...I sure as hell wouldn't tell anyone about it, or its recipe. In the end, I say that the market speaks for itself and for the entire lifetime of this thread...it has spoken loudly
@Ezmoney said:
It's always funny to see the "toning police" on these boards. Some even insinuating just about anything out there with color on it is AT becuase "they know". Maybe people get offended by the word "natural toned"... so maybe let's use "original toned". Orignal "bag toned" original "album toned" original "end roll" toned, original "potato baked" tone, original "gass" toned or whatever substance it came into contact with.
I personally loved toned coins. I enjoy looking at them and trying to imagine how they toned the way they did. I imagine that 100+ year old Morgan making it's trip sitting against the canvas from the mint to the vault to somebody's basement, or sitting wrapped up in an old tissue in grandpas sock drawer, or in dads old Raymond Wayte board. All "originally toned" by whatever they came in contact with.
How many here have ever been fortunate enough to witness an original unopened bag of Morgans being liberated from their hibernation? Have you seen that toning first hand? There is NO doc good enough to replicate a 130 year old "thick" (key word) textile or brilliantly bag toned coin. Yes there is lots of AT stuff out there and some of it is indeed slabbed. It's like every other part of numismatics, knowledge is your friend. If anybody is collecting coins....be it toned or white or whatever as an investment,or anything other than fun, than they should take time to learn the characteristics. The true toning afficianodos know that in many of the series where color can bring a premium i.e. Morgan Dollars, Linolns, Mercs, Rosies etc. and most often even within the series only specific dates that will even have a chance at toning. They also know what the true characteristics are becuase they have looked at thousands of original coins over the years.
Look at the recent craze and premiums being paid for the toned modern ASE's. Quite a few artificial AT, quite a few acclerated toned, and many original toned. Yes "original toned" from the old PCI holders they resided in, or the velvet lined display boxes they were stored in, or the cardboard Littleton holders,or whatever. Bottom line is people like them and there are bidding them up be it raw or slabbed. Why? Becuase they like them! They are not buying them because of numismatic value or any hope of future numismatic value they are buying them becuase they like them.
Everyone here has seen coins body bagged in "questionable color" slabs still get bid up for a premium. Maybe the reason that some are so outspoken on "toned" coins is because they are concerned that some newbie will get ripped off buying what someone is selling as a "monster toned" coin or maybe,just maybe they have been ripped off themselves. Like any other part of Numismatics it's buyer beware. If anything is positive about many of these AT coins like the ASE's that are out there is that they may actually be bringing some new people to the numismatic market that may never have even been interested in coins because they are boring and white and all look the same. I know someone that hoarded silver bullion and ended up getting hooked on toned numismatic coins after he discovered the crazy thing that happened to some blast white silver Libertads he had stashed away for 15 years.
I've looked at the same comments being rehashed on toned coins for 30+ years all saying the same thing....."It's a fad","the toned market will crash", "once the Docs show what they can do start to finish everybody's stuff will be worthless". Blah blah blah. The overall numismatics market has been soft for awhile now but the quality toned stuff is still strong and always will be. Go look at the last Legend auction. The fact is the higher end toned stuff is in strong hands now and its gettting harder and harder to find quality nicely toned stuff. There are some new big hitters that are paying the 3k to 10k and up huge premiums for more or less common date "monster toned" coins and they are doing it because they enjoy them and want to own them not because, nor do they even expect to make a profit on them. Pretty much every dealer I know that rolls thier eyes or doesn't want anything to do with toned coins has that one coin with amazing color stashed in their safe that they will never part with let alone let you see becuase they know you will make a crazy offer and pry it from their hands.
Wether it be white,red,blue,green, yellow, proof, business strike,silver copper or gold.....can't we all just get along?
Toned Coins Matter
Cheers!
In the early 80's I witnessed 3 or 4 Mint Bags of Morgan Dollars being opened. Two of the bags had Toned Dollars.
If It doesn't have great eye appeal, I don't want it.
The irony of this thread since its creation in October 2003 is that the toner coins have continued to prosper and increase in value, many by multiples. All the while, the blast white or dipped out stuff is still available by the truck loads whether it be gem common Morgans, Walkers, Commems, etc. 13+ years later and the winner is.....the toners.
@roadrunner said:
The irony of this thread since its creation in October 2003 is that the toner coins have continued to prosper and increase in value, many by multiples. All the while, the blast white or dipped out stuff is still available by the truck loads whether it be gem common Morgans, Walkers, Commems, etc. 13+ years later and the winner is.....the toners.
I'm not surprised by the popularity of toned coins as I do like them myself.
One thing I do find ironic is that TPG slabbing of Genuine AT coins seems to have created a market for premium priced, slabbed, AT coins.
So while I enjoy toned coins, I also like to understand the latest in attempts to make them.
@roadrunner said:
The irony of this thread since its creation in October 2003 is that the toner coins have continued to prosper and increase in value, many by multiples. All the while, the blast white or dipped out stuff is still available by the truck loads whether it be gem common Morgans, Walkers, Commems, etc. 13+ years later and the winner is.....the toners.
Actually I'm not surprised since the vested interest in these coins being "Market acceptable" is in the many millions of dollars. The pressure to keep these "Market acceptable" is enormous and collectors are CONSTANTLY being told in every single auction catalog that these are lovely, desired, and original even when they clearly aren't. Once a collector spends serious money buying these coins, the pressure to defend the purchase and the condition is likewise enormous and it results in a status quo.
Anyway I've always said buy what you like. My only argument is in the claim that originality can be a known quantity. It almost always cannot when it comes to toned coins.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
RR,
I agree. My sense of his posts is that much of what he wrote was prompted by a desire to sell white coins in a market that strongly disfavors them. Tough break, but the market for these was not great a decade ago either. Complaints about toning or anything else (CAC, etc.) won't matter. When you buy, then of course play by your 'rules' regarding quality for a grade, need for bells and whistles, etc. Selling? Now you play by the 'market rules' because there is no other alternative in most cases.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
@Sonorandesertrat said:
RR,
I agree. My sense of his posts is that much of what he wrote was prompted by a desire to sell white coins in a market that strongly disfavors them. Tough break, but the market for these was not great a decade ago either. Complaints about toning or anything else (CAC, etc.) won't matter. When you buy, then of course play by your 'rules' regarding quality for a grade, need for bells and whistles, etc. Selling? Now you play by the 'market rules' because there is no other alternative in most cases.
Hehe.....I enjoyed this, thank you.
This thread was started in 2003. I can honestly say that I have not sold one single commemorative since then. I was also not the one to bump this thread. Someone else did that when I rejoined the board and the conversation.
It would have been amazing omnipotence to know that a thread created in 2003 could be used to sell my coins in 2017 no? Who knew I was so amazing!
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
It's not that I don't believe you but I don't believe you. Sure there are some AT coins in holders and there are bad folks in the coin galaxy. We all get it. I just don't believe any of your first hand accounts or I believe they are embellished to make you look like somebody in the know to push your agenda. Your comments reek of a narcissist. Outside of that your the man!
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
It's not that I don't believe you but I don't believe you. Sure there are some AT coins in holders and there are bad folks in the coin galaxy. We all get it. I just don't believe any of your first hand accounts or I believe they are embellished to make you look like somebody in the know to push your agenda. Your comments reek of a narcissist. Outside of that your the man!
mark
It's absolutely not important that you believe me.
What's important is that you agree there are AT coins in slabs which means that experts can be fooled. If experts can be fooled with the kind of money at stake in the rare coin market, then clearly there's a huge amount of money to be made in conditioning a coin. If there's a huge amount of money to be made in conditioning a coin, there must be thousands or tens of thousands or the majority of the market having AT. Obviously if someone is successful at it once, they will keep doing it and they will get more skilled as they go along.
What everyone can agree on is that you can't add luster to a coin. Sulfur dioxide can be added at will but there is currently no known method of reapplying luster to the surface of a piece of pressed silver. If you want original, buy luster.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
@Iwog said:
What everyone can agree on is that you can't add luster to a coin. Sulfur dioxide can be added at will but there is currently no known method of reapplying luster to the surface of a piece of pressed silver. If you want original, buy luster.
@Iwog said:
What everyone can agree on is that you can't add luster to a coin. Sulfur dioxide can be added at will but there is currently no known method of reapplying luster to the surface of a piece of pressed silver. If you want original, buy luster.
The best toned coins also have lots of luster
Absolutely they can. What destroys luster is the repeated toning and dipping of a coin to bring it back white again. All the old timers used to do this. Also I'm pretty sure the salt and oils on your skin can also react with the silver to remove those microscopic ridges. You see it on coin fingerprints all the time.
However a bright original coin with color? Very nice stuff!
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
What's important is that you agree there are AT coins in slabs which means that experts can be fooled. If experts can be fooled with the kind of money at stake in the rare coin market, then clearly there's a huge amount of money to be made in conditioning a coin. If there's a huge amount of money to be made in conditioning a coin, there must be thousands or tens of thousands or the majority of the market having AT. Obviously if someone is successful at it once, they will keep doing it and they will get more skilled as they go along.
There's FAR more money being made by dipping toned coins and getting higher grades on them, even though the surfaces just got some metal and oxidation removed. If you're buying blast white, odds are good you're buying someone elses previously dipped coin that once displayed some ugly or neutral toning.
There's FAR more money being made by dipping toned coins and getting higher grades on them, even though the surfaces just got some metal and oxidation removed. If you're buying blast white, odds are good you're buying someone elses previously dipped coin that once displayed some ugly or neutral toning.
Nope you're wrong. It's true that awful toning can sometimes be dipped off to improve the market for a coin but it's not going to make you rich. At worst it's going to allow the dealer to actually sell the bloody thing and at best he might make 10-20%.
Anyway you cannot create luster by dipping a coin. Everyone, even beginners, can tell the difference between fresh original mint luster and flat dipped off dull surfaces. This is precisely the problem with the coin market I was talking about. Overwhelmingly the demand for rare coins is by baby boomers, baby boomers have been in the hobby a long time, baby boomers locked up all the best pieces and will hold them until they start dying off in large numbers, and what is left are the dregs.
As for improving a coin by adding AT, honestly I have no idea what more you want on the subject. The research has been done. The examples have been gloriously displayed. Formerly "cleaned, not gradable" turned into MS wonders by adding some dark toning and all of a sudden you make $20k. Believe what is demonstrably real.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
@Cougar1978 said:
If CDN bid for an MS65 1883-O Dollar is $150 I have no interest in paying multiples of that or even a premium for a toned coin. Most buyers on the bourse want coins that are brilliant, wellstruck, with super luster that look as pristine as the day they left the mint. I see toning as a preference vs white brilliant coins, not something I would pay a premium for. Frankly, the toned coin is further along in its oxidation process. While I might bid $140 for a brilliant coin, $100-$120 might be my offer on a toner as this is a specialist market and YMMV.
Toning is a fancy name for tarnish which results from oxidation with the atmosphere. Eventually the coin will turn dark; its a foregone conclusion. Read the Coin Preservation Handbook.
I remember buying a roll of silver halves in the late 1960's and as a courtesy the dealer dipped them in mass (in jewel luster) right there in the shop as this was a common practice, I did not even have to request it. I remember being set up at the Greater Houston show sometime in the mid 1990's. A customer was looking at a slabbed Morgan Dollar - NGC MS64. The obverse was brilliant, but when he saw the toned reverse he put the coin back. He did buy a brilliant, white coin with super luster. Later on when ebay came out it did well with a toning hobbyist on the toned piece and was glad to get rid of it. Many coins in a holder for several years develop haze and need a dip. I have an OGH MS65 dollar and it has developed some light haze and plan to crack it out, dip, resubmit, and hopefully MS66.
Yes I can relate to people paying a significant premium for toned coins like the beanie babies craze. I definitely am not a fan of toned coins especially those with spots. many look they were run over with a truck. AS techniques for coin preservation future collectors will most likely prefer brilliant white coins and this will be the norm if a vacuum holder ever becomes available, especially if self grading and available at Walmart in ten pacs for $10.
Those that favor dipped, blast white coins are now in the minority IMHO. I'm not saying that the majority will pay premiums for monster toning, but overall, the market prefers original over dipped coins (assuming that the original coin is attractive).
@Iwog said:
Everyone, even beginners, can tell the difference between fresh original mint luster and flat dipped off dull surfaces.
Wrong. If a coin is lightly dipped and is done so properly, you will not see a significant diminishment in luster and wouldn't be able to tell it was dipped.
No you probably can't tell the first time it was dipped , but there are coins that have been swimming in the stuff a dozen times . Although I must say I had some unc war nickles that were totally black on one side and I tossed one in an old thing of well used ez -est and left it there overnight and not much happened to it.
dipping is a topical removal and nothing else if done right. multiple dippings do go deeper. to say dipping ruins coins is just wrong. i have seen many dark but originally toned proof coins turn into monster ucams for one good dip
dipping is a topical removal and nothing else if done right. multiple dippings do go deeper. to say dipping ruins coins is just wrong. i have seen many dark but originally toned proof coins turn into monster ucams for one good dip
Is it okay to say multiple dippings can ruin coins?
@Iwog said:
Everyone, even beginners, can tell the difference between fresh original mint luster and flat dipped off dull surfaces.
Wrong. If a coin is lightly dipped and is done so properly, you will not see a significant diminishment in luster and wouldn't be able to tell it was dipped.
I totally agree with you.
What I'm talking about is coins that over the years have toned, been dipped, toned, been dipped, sometimes dozens of times. It's the oxidation into silver sulfide that destroys the luster, not the reaction to dissolve the silver sulfide, so "Original" but flat looking coins are anything but.
Now some will do the experiment of taking a blast white Kennedy half and leaving it in a solution overnight and present it as proof that dipping a silver coin ruins the luster. While true, we're talking a chemical reaction that occurs for 10,000 times longer (not an exaggeration) than a typical whitewash dipping.
Remember, and not even the toner stoners can disagree with this, you can ONLY ADD toning to a coin. You can ONLY REMOVE luster from a coin. Therefore which measure speaks to originality more?
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
@coinlieutenant said:
If you think luster cant be created.... check out a nice 1857-S 20$ Central America .....
Can you explain what what you mean here? This might be a stupid question... All I know about these coins are that they were shipwrecked coins but nothing other than that. Were they conserved or doctored or what? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to talk about it openly.
To address the overall thread (I read all the drama back and fourth), I think some coins have toned on their own through normal atmospheric conditions, many were dipped at one point and some are currently being knowingly toned to make $. While some toned coins make me scratch my head, the majority of AT'd ones are very obvious. If I don't like the way one looks (head scratcher) I walk away from it and that is the end of that.
I think that part of the proliferation of recently toned coins COULD have come from the holders they have been stored in since collecting was popular (60's). Whether it be an old Wayte Raymond album, a collection that was sitting in small envelopes containing sulfur or other reactive glues/plastics AND TPG holders too!!!
PCI, old ANACS (small white holders) and other holders tone coins are prime examples of that. Many old ANACS holders have the dark green/blue rim
toning and I have seen wayyyyy to many examples of those holdered toned coins to believe those holders are not the cause of that type of toning.
I think people underestimate how many coins have been toned through holders it hasn't really been brought up. Makes sense that many people think more toned coins have been released to the market over the last 30 years since TPG's have come to life in the last 30 years....Not everything is due to nefarious behavior
Thoughts? I know that extensive testing and research is done on new PCGS plastic slabs, but has that always been the case?
Remember, and not even the toner stoners can disagree with this, you can ONLY ADD toning to a coin. You can ONLY REMOVE luster from a coin. Therefore which measure speaks to originality more?
Why the toning of course. Everyone knows that. Strong luster until nicely toned surfaces can easily suggest fully original toning (ie the "toner" James Stack 1901-s 25c MS67 CAC). Looking at a blast white coin, it's often a toss up if it's ever been dipped and how many times. And either toning or dipping(s) can effectively diminish the luster on a silver coin. A white lustrous coin guarantees only one thing....that you currently have a white lustrous coin. It says nothing about its originality. You can never duplicate or bring back the original frost/crusty luster of a brand new USMint silver coin. All you can do by further dipping(s)/enhancements is to remove that original frost on frost.
If it's been dipped, give it a few years to start turning a mottled, light yellow/brown. Then keep dipping it to keep that toning away. Eventually you'll own a lifeless, mark-free, formerly "gem" coin.
Why the toning of course. Everyone knows that. Strong luster until nicely toned surfaces can easily suggest fully original toning (ie the "toner" James Stack 1901-s 25c MS67 CAC). Looking at a blast white coin, it's often a toss up if it's ever been dipped and how many times. And either toning or dipping can effectively diminish the luster on a silver coin. A white lustrous coin guarantees only one thing....that you currently have a white lustrous coin.
What everyone knows is you can take a cleaned body bagged coin and get it slabbed by adding AT before resubmitting it and making $20k. How can you continue to claim it's easy to tell the difference when experts totally blow this determination all the time?
No one really cares if a blast white coin has been dipped. If the luster is intact, you can see it. If the luster is gone, you can see it. You can ALWAYS tell if a coin is dipped out. You can NEVER tell 100% of the time if the coin has received artificial toning.
If it's been dipped, give it a few years to start turning a mottled, light yellow/brown. Then keep dipping it to keep that toning away. Eventually you'll own a lifeless, mark-free, formerly "gem" coin.
A property dipped coin that has been washed in alcohol afterwards doesn't turn color. 20 years now and counting for a green label PCGS blast white peace dollar I submitted through a dealer. Before they had collectors club. The assertions you keep making are demonstrably false.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
I'm beginning to think that this thread (perhaps also a few other recent ones) is an unintended consequence of climate change. Spring is coming early in some parts of the country, and critters are coming out of their underground dens.
Good luck with your sale. To be honest, I had considered assembling a set of classic commems after selling my SLQ and Barber half sets in 2007; I'm glad I didn't. A decade ago, a number of well-known dealers were pushing these (DHRC, cough), saying they were too cheap. What caused the demand to fall so far?
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
Comments
I'm sorry you feel that way but I've seen far too many coins with the luster completely destroyed, I mean to the point where you couldn't find hot and cold areas under a 5000 watt arc lamp................sitting in MS66 and above holders. According to every grading standard ever published in the industry, this should be impossible.
I think it's absurd now and I thought it was absurd when I started this thread 13 years ago. Nothing makes a coin more beautiful than bright original luster.
NGC wont touch these coins. Matter of fact NGC became much more stringent on modern toners at one point refusing to grade wildly toned ASEs - almost all of them ended up in details holders (see link below). PCGS still grades them though. Do you honestly believe that TPGs dont have their ears to the ground in the industry and know what is going on ?
I had 13 out of 13 modern toners not grade at NGC and I then sent them off to PCGS where they all graded. So now all my modern toners go to PCGS.
I think NGC overreacted and PCGS under-reacted.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Pack-Colorful-Toned-American-Silver-Eagle-NGC-Certified-Artificial-Toning-/262376676061?hash=item3d16de5add:g:xDIAAOSwOdpXyK8-
Part of what the TPGs hear are right here on the forums. Would you remove a valuable source of info from the TPGs?
And, as mentioned, the forums are an important source of information for Market Acceptability.
****dumb statement:**** First why is anyone's responsibility to warn PCGS about anything ?
I once owned a beautiful 26S Oregon trail PCGS MS67. The colors were glorious and looked as good as good could. I watched in horror as the color changed right before my eyes (and I had several witnesses) in less then 30 days after (after it had been slabbed apparently). The coin turned a horrible dead gray.
I bought the coin from a well known dealer (who has been in and out of trouble w/PCGS ever since). I told PCGS and they went right after him and pretty much started rejecting all his toners. Maybe he went to others to submit, but in the end they sent him a strong message.
This coin after it was made fooled everyone. I know my toning as well as anyone. That's the key-when these go through grading, they look so good. It takes a little time for them to turn.
by not telling pcgs who knows how many others would have been stung by the guy's work. I forget if this was before or after pcgs nailed him for adding heads to standing quarters.
we all have to try and nail these germs
It's always funny to see the "toning police" on these boards. Some even insinuating just about anything out there with color on it is AT becuase "they know". Maybe people get offended by the word "natural toned"... so maybe let's use "original toned". Orignal "bag toned" original "album toned" original "end roll" toned, original "potato baked" tone, original "gass" toned or whatever substance it came into contact with.
I personally loved toned coins. I enjoy looking at them and trying to imagine how they toned the way they did. I imagine that 100+ year old Morgan making it's trip sitting against the canvas from the mint to the vault to somebody's basement, or sitting wrapped up in an old tissue in grandpas sock drawer, or in dads old Raymond Wayte board. All "originally toned" by whatever they came in contact with.
How many here have ever been fortunate enough to witness an original unopened bag of Morgans being liberated from their hibernation? Have you seen that toning first hand? There is NO doc good enough to replicate a 130 year old "thick" (key word) textile or brilliantly bag toned coin. Yes there is lots of AT stuff out there and some of it is indeed slabbed. It's like every other part of numismatics, knowledge is your friend. If anybody is collecting coins....be it toned or white or whatever as an investment,or anything other than fun, than they should take time to learn the characteristics. The true toning afficianodos know that in many of the series where color can bring a premium i.e. Morgan Dollars, Linolns, Mercs, Rosies etc. and most often even within the series only specific dates that will even have a chance at toning. They also know what the true characteristics are becuase they have looked at thousands of original coins over the years.
Look at the recent craze and premiums being paid for the toned modern ASE's. Quite a few artificial AT, quite a few acclerated toned, and many original toned. Yes "original toned" from the old PCI holders they resided in, or the velvet lined display boxes they were stored in, or the cardboard Littleton holders,or whatever. Bottom line is people like them and there are bidding them up be it raw or slabbed. Why? Becuase they like them! They are not buying them because of numismatic value or any hope of future numismatic value they are buying them becuase they like them.
Everyone here has seen coins body bagged in "questionable color" slabs still get bid up for a premium. Maybe the reason that some are so outspoken on "toned" coins is because they are concerned that some newbie will get ripped off buying what someone is selling as a "monster toned" coin or maybe,just maybe they have been ripped off themselves. Like any other part of Numismatics it's buyer beware. If anything is positive about many of these AT coins like the ASE's that are out there is that they may actually be bringing some new people to the numismatic market that may never have even been interested in coins because they are boring and white and all look the same. I know someone that hoarded silver bullion and ended up getting hooked on toned numismatic coins after he discovered the crazy thing that happened to some blast white silver Libertads he had stashed away for 15 years.
I've looked at the same comments being rehashed on toned coins for 30+ years all saying the same thing....."It's a fad","the toned market will crash", "once the Docs show what they can do start to finish everybody's stuff will be worthless". Blah blah blah. The overall numismatics market has been soft for awhile now but the quality toned stuff is still strong and always will be. Go look at the last Legend auction. The fact is the higher end toned stuff is in strong hands now and its gettting harder and harder to find quality nicely toned stuff. There are some new big hitters that are paying the 3k to 10k and up huge premiums for more or less common date "monster toned" coins and they are doing it because they enjoy them and want to own them not because, nor do they even expect to make a profit on them. Pretty much every dealer I know that rolls thier eyes or doesn't want anything to do with toned coins has that one coin with amazing color stashed in their safe that they will never part with let alone let you see becuase they know you will make a crazy offer and pry it from their hands.
Wether it be white,red,blue,green, yellow, proof, business strike,silver copper or gold.....can't we all just get along?
Toned Coins Matter
Cheers!
If CDN bid for an MS65 1883-O Dollar is $150 I have no interest in paying multiples of that or even a premium for a toned coin. Most buyers on the bourse want coins that are brilliant, wellstruck, with super luster that look as pristine as the day they left the mint. I see toning as a preference vs white brilliant coins, not something I would pay a premium for. Frankly, the toned coin is further along in its oxidation process. While I might bid $140 for a brilliant coin, $100-$120 might be my offer on a toner as this is a specialist market and YMMV.
Toning is a fancy name for tarnish which results from oxidation with the atmosphere. Eventually the coin will turn dark; its a foregone conclusion. Read the Coin Preservation Handbook.
I remember buying a roll of silver halves in the late 1960's and as a courtesy the dealer dipped them in mass (in jewel luster) right there in the shop as this was a common practice, I did not even have to request it. I remember being set up at the Greater Houston show sometime in the mid 1990's. A customer was looking at a slabbed Morgan Dollar - NGC MS64. The obverse was brilliant, but when he saw the toned reverse he put the coin back. He did buy a brilliant, white coin with super luster. Later on when ebay came out it did well with a toning hobbyist on the toned piece and was glad to get rid of it. Many coins in a holder for several years develop haze and need a dip. I have an OGH MS65 dollar and it has developed some light haze and plan to crack it out, dip, resubmit, and hopefully MS66.
Yes I can relate to people paying a significant premium for toned coins like the beanie babies craze. I definitely am not a fan of toned coins especially those with spots. many look they were run over with a truck. AS techniques for coin preservation future collectors will most likely prefer brilliant white coins and this will be the norm if a vacuum holder ever becomes available, especially if self grading and available at Walmart in ten pacs for $10.
Did PCGS buy back all of your dealer's submissions ? They certainly know what coins he submitted prior to your complaint.
I dont drink the PCGS kool-aid. Im a collector and I can care less if a coin is PCGS, NGC, ANACS or even PCI or IGC. I can tell the difference between AT, NT and MA. If PCGS decides they want to make certain coins market acceptable, that is their decision to do so.
You make the assumption that they dont know. After hundreds of coins with the same look all being graded I have to assume that they do. It wouldnt be that difficult for any TPG to add on a few toned coin experts to their grading staff to make sure AT coins dont get into their plastic. Ask yourself why they havent....
Good God!, looking back at my reply from 14 years ago, I feel old. And (still) wise.
Love luster and demand all my coins have them in abundance but white coins bore the heck out of me ( couple of exceptions. Cameo's and Peace dollars). Nothing like toned luster bombs IMO. To each is own. I'm ok with that.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Toning is technically tarnish yes but not all is tarnish is caused by oxidation as you suggest. That's why mom had to polish fine silverware everytime she used it because it tarnished from just being exposed to the air and dads cigar and pipe smoke.Beautifully toned (silver)coins have actually come in contact with something i.e. an old mint canvas bag or some sort of paper or holder that containes sulpher with a reduced amount of exposure to oxygen. The sulfer compounds that exist within the silver react to the external source forms the layer of "tarnish" the length of time it is exposed to that environment the "thicker" (key word) the toning will get. It's that reaction along with the thickness of the "tarnish" that cuases light to be "diffracted" and cuase the different colors our eyeballs see. And maybe therein lies the condundrum of why some of us like toned coins and some do not. Maybe the colors just look different to our eyeballs. Personally I would prefer the below one of a kind "tarnished" 1880-S that looks like it was run over by a truck and still has tire tracks on it, than have one of the many million blast white 1880-S out there. I would display it right next to my limited edition Valentine Beanie.
Peace!
I agree with you that an abundance of luster under toning can be very nice. However do you have an explanation for something like this? What grade do you think it is? The one after it is what my coin looks like.
.> @Iwog said:
Technically the the grade is..."MS Details Altered or Cleaned Surfaces Dipped"
Now this is the coin! MS 67* brought $13,000.00 over the average MS67. Qaulity toners will always bring a premium. So much to look at and enjoy on that coin and imagine where it has been. This coin has charachter!
Forgot to post Pic...
That would be my opinion as well.
However the real grade is PCGS MS68. I'd love for someone to tell me how this is possible.
so how does a buyback work on that then?
That's the big question isn't it. You can objectively prove through scientific standards that the luster is gone. You can also objectively prove that you can't have a grade over MS64 with impaired luster. So does a grading company finally decide to enforce grading standards that are 50 years old and eat millions of dollars worth of impaired coins or do they defend the grade?
I think they defend the grade. Furthermore 'market standards' is so broad and objective that it covers whatever decision they will make. "yes it's impaired but the market will buy it as MS68 so it's MS68."
But why does the market say it's MS68? Because it was hyped and a grading company said it was MS68 thus completing the circle.
I'm confused, how can you see luster via an image??? how can u grade via an image?
the argument of the poster is becoming more ridiculous
You don't need an image to see the lustre if its an ms68 , the lustre should come blazing right through a line of text
Actually I think it's even easier to see luster (or lack of it) on a photograph than in person. That's why brilliant coins are difficult to photograph. There will be very sharp hot and cold areas of the coin and the only way to bring out details across the coin is from multiple light sources.
In the above photograph the cartwheel spoke is clearly visible on the blast white coin. In fact there is two cartwheel spokes because I used two light sources. In the other photograph there are none. Now it would be entirely reasonable to say "Well this is a light box photograph so that's why there aren't any hot and cold zones in the luster." however this is a PCGS Trueview photograph. As you can see below, the luster and the hot and cold zones in the luster come out perfectly:
Of course it is. I hope he will eventually tucker himself out but I have my doubts.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
There are certainly cases where the TPGs either don't know about AT or don't know about the market's non-acceptance until coins are identified in public discussion after which they take corrective action so discussion is definitely useful. I believe it's the community's responsibility to notify TPGs of non-market acceptable / AT coins when they are identified to assist in protecting the PCGS brand and the hobby from doctors and others seeking to damage PCGS and the hobby.
Anyone remember this coin when it was first discussed on this forum?
They both look funky from the pics
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
>
The images are above... Google is your friend. You can do the homework and do what you want with the information. No one is stopping you... Lets see if PCGS goes around and buys back all of his toners to protect their brand and the hobby...
https://images.google.com/
It will be interesting to see what happens with these. It's good that these are being discussed.
And in about 1974, Fred Malone had an original roll of 1872-S half dimes. I think it was Jack Beymer who had a roll of 1892-S Barber halves. Ah...those were the days.
not possible.
the trouble with the discussion and claimed "Knowledge" by a lot of collectors is the same thing wrong with this statement by HRH, whose expertise I would never impugn. things are not always as we remember and not always as legitimate as we trust them to be. if I believe this link google.com/patents/US779292 then it follows that the rolls mentioned aren't original, they are "put together" rolls and to my way of thinking that calls all other assertions and memory reasonably into question.
in other words, if rolls were put together and passed off as original when that wasn't actually possible, what about toned coins?? once confidence is gained anything is possible. I agree fully that there are plenty of originally toned coins which probably existed prior to the 1960's but it is almost a foregone conclusion that those numbers diminished during that decade and the ones to follow. given the dynamics of the several Silver spot price increases and the amount of coins melted I come up with two reason why there are currently so many nicely toned coins --- 1). collectors in the past went against prevailing trends and kept them hidden away where they remained unchanged for decades, 2). they have been created.
...this thread is really bringing the Alt's out...hmmm I wonder how many of them were originally involved in this conversation??? Cocaine was around for many years before some genius figured out how to cook it into crack-cocaine. I like toned coins but even I'm smart enough to know they left the US Mint blast white...if I knew how to cook a blast white Morgan dollar into a Sunnywood type specimen...I sure as hell wouldn't tell anyone about it, or its recipe. In the end, I say that the market speaks for itself and for the entire lifetime of this thread...it has spoken loudly
In the early 80's I witnessed 3 or 4 Mint Bags of Morgan Dollars being opened. Two of the bags had Toned Dollars.
Which were promptly dipped blast white
At least 100 or more were not dipped. The rest of them I can not say.
The irony of this thread since its creation in October 2003 is that the toner coins have continued to prosper and increase in value, many by multiples. All the while, the blast white or dipped out stuff is still available by the truck loads whether it be gem common Morgans, Walkers, Commems, etc. 13+ years later and the winner is.....the toners.
I'm not surprised by the popularity of toned coins as I do like them myself.
One thing I do find ironic is that TPG slabbing of Genuine AT coins seems to have created a market for premium priced, slabbed, AT coins.
So while I enjoy toned coins, I also like to understand the latest in attempts to make them.
Actually I'm not surprised since the vested interest in these coins being "Market acceptable" is in the many millions of dollars. The pressure to keep these "Market acceptable" is enormous and collectors are CONSTANTLY being told in every single auction catalog that these are lovely, desired, and original even when they clearly aren't. Once a collector spends serious money buying these coins, the pressure to defend the purchase and the condition is likewise enormous and it results in a status quo.
Anyway I've always said buy what you like. My only argument is in the claim that originality can be a known quantity. It almost always cannot when it comes to toned coins.
RR,
I agree. My sense of his posts is that much of what he wrote was prompted by a desire to sell white coins in a market that strongly disfavors them. Tough break, but the market for these was not great a decade ago either. Complaints about toning or anything else (CAC, etc.) won't matter. When you buy, then of course play by your 'rules' regarding quality for a grade, need for bells and whistles, etc. Selling? Now you play by the 'market rules' because there is no other alternative in most cases.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Hehe.....I enjoyed this, thank you.
This thread was started in 2003. I can honestly say that I have not sold one single commemorative since then. I was also not the one to bump this thread. Someone else did that when I rejoined the board and the conversation.
It would have been amazing omnipotence to know that a thread created in 2003 could be used to sell my coins in 2017 no? Who knew I was so amazing!
It's not that I don't believe you but I don't believe you. Sure there are some AT coins in holders and there are bad folks in the coin galaxy. We all get it. I just don't believe any of your first hand accounts or I believe they are embellished to make you look like somebody in the know to push your agenda. Your comments reek of a narcissist. Outside of that your the man!
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
It's absolutely not important that you believe me.
What's important is that you agree there are AT coins in slabs which means that experts can be fooled. If experts can be fooled with the kind of money at stake in the rare coin market, then clearly there's a huge amount of money to be made in conditioning a coin. If there's a huge amount of money to be made in conditioning a coin, there must be thousands or tens of thousands or the majority of the market having AT. Obviously if someone is successful at it once, they will keep doing it and they will get more skilled as they go along.
What everyone can agree on is that you can't add luster to a coin. Sulfur dioxide can be added at will but there is currently no known method of reapplying luster to the surface of a piece of pressed silver. If you want original, buy luster.
The best toned coins also have lots of luster
Absolutely they can. What destroys luster is the repeated toning and dipping of a coin to bring it back white again. All the old timers used to do this. Also I'm pretty sure the salt and oils on your skin can also react with the silver to remove those microscopic ridges. You see it on coin fingerprints all the time.
However a bright original coin with color? Very nice stuff!
There's FAR more money being made by dipping toned coins and getting higher grades on them, even though the surfaces just got some metal and oxidation removed. If you're buying blast white, odds are good you're buying someone elses previously dipped coin that once displayed some ugly or neutral toning.
Nope you're wrong. It's true that awful toning can sometimes be dipped off to improve the market for a coin but it's not going to make you rich. At worst it's going to allow the dealer to actually sell the bloody thing and at best he might make 10-20%.
Anyway you cannot create luster by dipping a coin. Everyone, even beginners, can tell the difference between fresh original mint luster and flat dipped off dull surfaces. This is precisely the problem with the coin market I was talking about. Overwhelmingly the demand for rare coins is by baby boomers, baby boomers have been in the hobby a long time, baby boomers locked up all the best pieces and will hold them until they start dying off in large numbers, and what is left are the dregs.
As for improving a coin by adding AT, honestly I have no idea what more you want on the subject. The research has been done. The examples have been gloriously displayed. Formerly "cleaned, not gradable" turned into MS wonders by adding some dark toning and all of a sudden you make $20k. Believe what is demonstrably real.
Those that favor dipped, blast white coins are now in the minority IMHO. I'm not saying that the majority will pay premiums for monster toning, but overall, the market prefers original over dipped coins (assuming that the original coin is attractive).
Wrong. If a coin is lightly dipped and is done so properly, you will not see a significant diminishment in luster and wouldn't be able to tell it was dipped.
No you probably can't tell the first time it was dipped , but there are coins that have been swimming in the stuff a dozen times . Although I must say I had some unc war nickles that were totally black on one side and I tossed one in an old thing of well used ez -est and left it there overnight and not much happened to it.
misinformation again by people
dipping is a topical removal and nothing else if done right. multiple dippings do go deeper. to say dipping ruins coins is just wrong. i have seen many dark but originally toned proof coins turn into monster ucams for one good dip
Is it okay to say multiple dippings can ruin coins?
I totally agree with you.
What I'm talking about is coins that over the years have toned, been dipped, toned, been dipped, sometimes dozens of times. It's the oxidation into silver sulfide that destroys the luster, not the reaction to dissolve the silver sulfide, so "Original" but flat looking coins are anything but.
Now some will do the experiment of taking a blast white Kennedy half and leaving it in a solution overnight and present it as proof that dipping a silver coin ruins the luster. While true, we're talking a chemical reaction that occurs for 10,000 times longer (not an exaggeration) than a typical whitewash dipping.
Remember, and not even the toner stoners can disagree with this, you can ONLY ADD toning to a coin. You can ONLY REMOVE luster from a coin. Therefore which measure speaks to originality more?
Can you explain what what you mean here? This might be a stupid question... All I know about these coins are that they were shipwrecked coins but nothing other than that. Were they conserved or doctored or what? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to talk about it openly.
To address the overall thread (I read all the drama back and fourth), I think some coins have toned on their own through normal atmospheric conditions, many were dipped at one point and some are currently being knowingly toned to make $. While some toned coins make me scratch my head, the majority of AT'd ones are very obvious. If I don't like the way one looks (head scratcher) I walk away from it and that is the end of that.
I think that part of the proliferation of recently toned coins COULD have come from the holders they have been stored in since collecting was popular (60's). Whether it be an old Wayte Raymond album, a collection that was sitting in small envelopes containing sulfur or other reactive glues/plastics AND TPG holders too!!!
PCI, old ANACS (small white holders) and other holders tone coins are prime examples of that. Many old ANACS holders have the dark green/blue rim
toning and I have seen wayyyyy to many examples of those holdered toned coins to believe those holders are not the cause of that type of toning.
I think people underestimate how many coins have been toned through holders it hasn't really been brought up. Makes sense that many people think more toned coins have been released to the market over the last 30 years since TPG's have come to life in the last 30 years....Not everything is due to nefarious behavior
Thoughts? I know that extensive testing and research is done on new PCGS plastic slabs, but has that always been the case?
Why the toning of course. Everyone knows that. Strong luster until nicely toned surfaces can easily suggest fully original toning (ie the "toner" James Stack 1901-s 25c MS67 CAC). Looking at a blast white coin, it's often a toss up if it's ever been dipped and how many times. And either toning or dipping(s) can effectively diminish the luster on a silver coin. A white lustrous coin guarantees only one thing....that you currently have a white lustrous coin. It says nothing about its originality. You can never duplicate or bring back the original frost/crusty luster of a brand new USMint silver coin. All you can do by further dipping(s)/enhancements is to remove that original frost on frost.
If it's been dipped, give it a few years to start turning a mottled, light yellow/brown. Then keep dipping it to keep that toning away. Eventually you'll own a lifeless, mark-free, formerly "gem" coin.
What everyone knows is you can take a cleaned body bagged coin and get it slabbed by adding AT before resubmitting it and making $20k. How can you continue to claim it's easy to tell the difference when experts totally blow this determination all the time?
No one really cares if a blast white coin has been dipped. If the luster is intact, you can see it. If the luster is gone, you can see it. You can ALWAYS tell if a coin is dipped out. You can NEVER tell 100% of the time if the coin has received artificial toning.
A property dipped coin that has been washed in alcohol afterwards doesn't turn color. 20 years now and counting for a green label PCGS blast white peace dollar I submitted through a dealer. Before they had collectors club. The assertions you keep making are demonstrably false.
I'm beginning to think that this thread (perhaps also a few other recent ones) is an unintended consequence of climate change. Spring is coming early in some parts of the country, and critters are coming out of their underground dens.
Good luck with your sale. To be honest, I had considered assembling a set of classic commems after selling my SLQ and Barber half sets in 2007; I'm glad I didn't. A decade ago, a number of well-known dealers were pushing these (DHRC, cough), saying they were too cheap. What caused the demand to fall so far?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]