@Iwog said:
Everyone, even beginners, can tell the difference between fresh original mint luster and flat dipped off dull surfaces.
Wrong. If a coin is lightly dipped and is done so properly, you will not see a significant diminishment in luster and wouldn't be able to tell it was dipped.
I totally agree with you.
What I'm talking about is coins that over the years have toned, been dipped, toned, been dipped, sometimes dozens of times. It's the oxidation into silver sulfide that destroys the luster, not the reaction to dissolve the silver sulfide, so "Original" but flat looking coins are anything but.
Now some will do the experiment of taking a blast white Kennedy half and leaving it in a solution overnight and present it as proof that dipping a silver coin ruins the luster. While true, we're talking a chemical reaction that occurs for 10,000 times longer (not an exaggeration) than a typical whitewash dipping.
Remember, and not even the toner stoners can disagree with this, you can ONLY ADD toning to a coin. You can ONLY REMOVE luster from a coin. Therefore which measure speaks to originality more?
The acidic solution also can destroy flow lines and thus luster. This is what happens when you use dip that is too concentrated for too long and "overdip" the piece. Also if you think that chemically treated/processed coins are more indicative of originality, then you and the rest of the numismatic community have very different definitions of "original" and "originality" IMHO. Original to me means that it is unmolested and hasn't been doctored, treated, processed, insert your choice of adjective here, etc.
@Sonorandesertrat said:
I'm beginning to think that this thread (perhaps also a few other recent ones) is an unintended consequence of climate change. Spring is coming early in some parts of the country, and critters are coming out of their underground dens.
Good luck with your sale. To be honest, I had considered assembling a set of classic commems after selling my SLQ and Barber half sets in 2007; I'm glad I didn't. A decade ago, a number of well-known dealers were pushing these (DHRC, cough), saying they were too cheap. What caused the demand to fall so far?
Everyone has their opinions on where the coin market is going but I'm going to maintain that it's a mixture of grade inflation, too many of the nicest coins locked up in baby boomer collections, and forgive me for saying this, a total garbage heap of leftovers in dealer inventories and auctions. I wasn't kidding when I said I couldn't find a single coin I would buy in the recent Heritage auction archives and I meant it.
Is the market also soft? Maybe but I don't think there's any way to tell unless you can compare like for like. I'll have a much better idea where the TRUE market is when my auctions end next weekend.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
The acidic solution also can destroy flow lines and thus luster. This is what happens when you use dip that is too concentrated for too long and "overdip" the piece. Also if you think that chemically treated/processed coins are more indicative of originality, then you and the rest of the numismatic community have very different definitions of "original" and "originality" IMHO. Original to me means that it is unmolested and hasn't been doctored, treated, processed, insert your choice of adjective here, etc.
Nope, I never said that originality had anything to do with being dipped white. A white coin can be every bit as damaged as a toned coin.
The difference is white coins with damaged luster are bodybagged as "overdipped" while toned coins with damaged luster receive MS67 grades.
Anyway my definition of "original" is strictly based on how intact the original mint luster is on the coin. I disagree with all dealers, some long time collectors, and practically zero people new to the hobby. I think people start with a desire for white coins because they sparkle and they like them. I think people end up buying blown out toners because of the constant and unrelenting drumbeat of "IT'S ORIGINAL!! IT'S NATURAL!! ONLY NOOBS LIKE WHITE COINS!! THAT IWOG GUY IS CRAZY!!"
Every auction and every dealer and every ebay seller of a lusterless dog with brown toning says it's original. All of them. Most of those coins are not original.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
Going by the PCGS Index located on the home page, the Silver and Gold Commemorative Index has fallen 43% in the last 10 years, or 26% in the last 3 years. Too much rim crust and flat white in the market if you ask me.
@bolivarshagnasty said:
Going by the PCGS Index located on the home page, the Silver and Gold Commemorative Index has fallen 43% in the last 10 years, or 26% in the last 3 years. Too much rim crust and flat white in the market if you ask me.
Yep. Dealers cases are full of them.
Even monster toned has come down a good 25% off their highs
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
What everyone knows is you can take a cleaned body bagged coin and get it slabbed by adding AT before resubmitting it and making $20k. How can you continue to claim it's easy to tell the difference when experts totally blow this determination all the time?
I call BS on the generalization.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Your rabbit hole is not one I'm willing to go down. Good luck Mr Iwog. I think ignoring your prattle is my best move.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
Your rabbit hole is not one I'm willing to go down. Good luck Mr Iwog. I think ignoring your prattle is my best move.
mark
I apologize. I thought you wanted to talk about the prevalence (or lack thereof) of AT coins in the market today. Your participation in this thread had me confused.
I thought it was a very reasonable question but whatever floats your boat. Buy what you like!
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
@coinlieutenant said:
If you think luster cant be created.... check out a nice 1857-S 20$ Central America .....
Can you explain what what you mean here? This might be a stupid question... All I know about these coins are that they were shipwrecked coins but nothing other than that. Were they conserved or doctored or what? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to talk about it openly.
To address the overall thread (I read all the drama back and fourth), I think some coins have toned on their own through normal atmospheric conditions, many were dipped at one point and some are currently being knowingly toned to make $. While some toned coins make me scratch my head, the majority of AT'd ones are very obvious. If I don't like the way one looks (head scratcher) I walk away from it and that is the end of that.
I think that part of the proliferation of recently toned coins COULD have come from the holders they have been stored in since collecting was popular (60's). Whether it be an old Wayte Raymond album, a collection that was sitting in small envelopes containing sulfur or other reactive glues/plastics AND TPG holders too!!!
PCI, old ANACS (small white holders) and other holders tone coins are prime examples of that. Many old ANACS holders have the dark green/blue rim
toning and I have seen wayyyyy to many examples of those holdered toned coins to believe those holders are not the cause of that type of toning.
I think people underestimate how many coins have been toned through holders it hasn't really been brought up. Makes sense that many people think more toned coins have been released to the market over the last 30 years since TPG's have come to life in the last 30 years....Not everything is due to nefarious behavior
Thoughts? I know that extensive testing and research is done on new PCGS plastic slabs, but has that always been the case?
Does anyone other than me think that popular storage methods 30 years ago and the advent of TOG slabbing has contributed to coins being toned?
Storage methods in use 50-100 years ago contributed to coins being toned before the more recent toned-coin fad. Dyes in velvet can outgas and deposit on coins, for example. The old Wayte Raymond coin albums are still prized because they can lead to coins acquiring colorful toning. Years ago, I saw a photo of a room in a toning doc's house---it was lined with shelves that supported dozens of partially opened Wayte Raymond albums filled with coins, and there was a small space heater to further accelerate the toning process.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
In the late 80's at the Long Beach shows there were a few dealers selling colorful toned dollars. Not AT'd , I bought a few at the time still have them..
Hard core collector now for 42 years
There will always be two types of collectors ...blasted white and toned. I have a hard time believing that 150+ yr. old original red copper coins still exists today.
The supply of toned coins will always be able to increase while the supply of coins with intact luster can only decrease. Oxidation is a one way process.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
For me, if I look at a white 50 piece commem set, it does nothing for me. If I look at a 50 piece toned set like Greg Binghams or other nice ones, it's lots of ooohs and ahhhs like being at a fireworks display. No contest for me.....
@Sonorandesertrat said:
Storage methods in use 50-100 years ago contributed to coins being toned before the more recent toned-coin fad. Dyes in velvet can outgas and deposit on coins, for example. The old Wayte Raymond coin albums are still prized because they can lead to coins acquiring colorful toning. Years ago, I saw a photo of a room in a toning doc's house---it was lined with shelves that supported dozens of partially opened Wayte Raymond albums filled with coins, and there was a small space heater to further accelerate the toning process.
There's probably no TPG grader or leading dealer who would call putting coins in WR holders (even with a space heater going) as being artificial or doctoring. That toning is prized today whether accelerated or not. The Colonel Green silver coins that ended up in Newman often seemed to be dipped/treated coins that were later placed in albums, receiving glorious looking toning over the ensuing. They got high grades and appear to be universally loved.
One time only I wanted to see what accelerated toning on a window sill did. I cracked out a superb, blazing, 64+ 1890 PCGS MS64 seated quarter out of a rattler (1988). Except for a touch of planchet roughness just to the left of the date, it was superb. After 12-18 months of being wrapped in yellow tissue paper it had yellows and purples over 100% of the surfaces. It was probably too much. I sent it in for grading and got the "expected" BB. It was later sent off raw to a major auction. I did see that coin show up in a major auction around 5 years ago....it was in a top tier MS65 holder. That sort of surprised me. The planchet flow/toning irregularity to the left of the date was still obvious. I guess the accelerated tissue-toning was acceptable today.
We'll have to disagree on this point, RR. The photo I saw of that room, with all of those U. S. coins in WR albums on shelves, partially opened and being heated, shocked me. In my view, this wasn't different from some clown using an electrochemical process to rapidly and colorfully tone coins, to be later sold raw on Ebay, or gassing coins while they sat in old Mint bags.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
SDR, I guess we disagree. I see the accelerated album toning as generally market acceptable and the short term application of chemicals or toning via ovens, electrolysis, etc. as being out of bounds. I'm looking at this from the TPG/market acceptable view point, not necessarily my personal view, which doesn't matter.
I've had some coin albums in my home before, sitting not far from baseboard heating. They weren't open though. If the demarcation line is open vs. unopened album, who can detect that? What about storage in a cardboard 2X2 or a paper sulfur flip so often used in the 1960's and 1970's? It's all accelerated toning vs. coins just left alone in a drawer or inert plastic holder.
Market acceptability is not something I question. I actually prefer toned coins to blast white (or pale gold) ones. What has disturbed me for some time is how easy it is to produce toning that is market acceptable.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
I have nearly a dozen Morgan toners that I really enjoy looking at - I also have three MS white dollars as well that are great lookers (though the LSD has most certainly taken a dip at some point). There are oodles of toned dollars out there that I would pass on. There are oodles of white dollars that I would pass on.
My experience would suggest that there are toners out there 'locked up' in collections, an observation that has has been posted. But toners do appear over time, the market is active, and inventory, while not plentiful, does appear at auction. LRCA Northern Lights collection auctions have featured some splendid toners, and there are more coming up for sale. I'll be doing battle for an upcoming 1904-O (but will likely be nuked out of the water during the bidding) from this very nice toned collection.
It is great to see a respectful exchange of differing points of view.
I would REALLY have enjoyed seeing those original mint bags opened!!
"I would REALLY have enjoyed seeing those original mint bags opened!!"
Yep, especially the Battle Creek bags. NGC's announcements were inconsistent and a bit cryptic in my opinion. That hoard contained an exceptionally large number of colorfully toned Morgan dollars in each bag.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
**The pressure to keep these "Market acceptable" is enormous and collectors are CONSTANTLY being told in every single auction catalog that these are lovely, desired, and original **
it seems to me that the evolution of a true collector is from lower to higher and that typically means from seeing coins which are ordinary to seeing coins which are extra-ordinary. that has been my experience and I expect that others will agree. I well recall when I first saw deep cameo coins after having thought brilliant was the norm. I recall first seeing nicely toned coins after only knowing what brilliant white ones looked like.
no one needed to pressure me into thinking they were nicer, I managed that by myself.
Everyone should collect what they like. There are beer can collections worth millions.
That being said, the Emperor's New Clothes is a fairy tale about how people are affected by group think (or market acceptability) and this has been well studied. People who are told a wine costs hundreds of dollars will report it tastes better. Art critics who are told a famous artist painted a masterpiece will report how wonderful it is, even if it was painted by gorillas.
I'm pretty sure that if a major AT scandal broke out with hundreds of examples being liquidated at auctions, those coins will........forgive me........lose some of their luster.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
@bolivarshagnasty said:
Going by the PCGS Index located on the home page, the Silver and Gold Commemorative Index has fallen 43% in the last 10 years, or 26% in the last 3 years. Too much rim crust and flat white in the market if you ask me.
Yep. Dealers cases are full of them.
Even monster toned has come down a good 25% off their highs
mark
I don't follow this series, so forgive my ignorance. Other than the 1990s, when was the market high for the high end, quality toned stuff?
Luckily we have a specific example right in this thread. However that example was an extremely rare coin with a good pedigree.
So in your opinion, how many lesser AT coins are currently in slabs and how do you know?
I think there numerous artificially toned modern coins in TPG plastic. How do I know ? I dont know. However, I know toning on modern coins. There are dozens of coins on Ebay right now with toning that Ive never seen outside of plastic slab. That's usually my first clue. My second clue is when there are dozens to hundreds of examples with the same toning pattern across several different denominations. Each coin is different, each metallic composition of each coin is different, even how each coin is stored is different. Even how each coin is set into an album is different. One side of the rim being slight raised which will change the airflow over the coin. And thus even in the same album two coins sitting right next to each other from different years will tone differently. One may not tone at all. True NT is almost a hit or miss proposition.
Therefore when you see the same toning pattern on Ikes, JFKs, Roosies, Jeffs ect... you kinda have to believe that it was recreated by human hands and is not natural.
Luckily we have a specific example right in this thread. However that example was an extremely rare coin with a good pedigree.
So in your opinion, how many lesser AT coins are currently in slabs and how do you know?
I think there numerous artificially toned modern coins in TPG plastic. How do I know ? I dont know. However, I know toning on modern coins. There are dozens of coins on Ebay right now with toning that Ive never seen outside of plastic slab. That's usually my first clue. My second clue is when there are dozens to hundreds of examples with the same toning pattern across several different denominations. Each coin is different, each metallic composition of each coin is different, even how each coin is stored is different. Even how each coin is set into an album is different. One side of the rim being slight raised which will change the airflow over the coin. And thus even in the same album two coins sitting right next to each other from different years will tone differently. One may not tone at all. True NT is almost a hit or miss proposition.
Therefore when you see the same toning pattern on Ikes, JFKs, Roosies, Jeffs ect... you kinda have to believe that it was recreated by human hands and is not natural.
Agreed, especially when it is splotchy with odd color progressions if there is any real progression at all.
@Sonorandesertrat said:
Storage methods in use 50-100 years ago contributed to coins being toned before the more recent toned-coin fad. Dyes in velvet can outgas and deposit on coins, for example. The old Wayte Raymond coin albums are still prized because they can lead to coins acquiring colorful toning. Years ago, I saw a photo of a room in a toning doc's house---it was lined with shelves that supported dozens of partially opened Wayte Raymond albums filled with coins, and there was a small space heater to further accelerate the toning process.
So, would those coins be considered to be naturally toned or artificially toned?
@coinhack said:
So, would those coins be considered to be naturally toned or artificially toned?
And yes, that is a serious question.
There is no chemical difference between AT and NT. It's like looking at a gold coin and paying extra if the gold came from California instead of Alaska.
My solution is pretty simple. I concentrate on an attribute that can never be added to a coin but can always be subtracted.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
The market considers such coins NT. I don't, but I cannot tell the difference between heat-accelerated album toning and what I consider natural toning. Toning that comes from a chemical compound that volatilizes from something near a coin, like dyed velvet, is not something that I consider natural (and should dissolve off with prolonged exposure to acetone).
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
@Sonorandesertrat said:
Storage methods in use 50-100 years ago contributed to coins being toned before the more recent toned-coin fad. Dyes in velvet can outgas and deposit on coins, for example. The old Wayte Raymond coin albums are still prized because they can lead to coins acquiring colorful toning. Years ago, I saw a photo of a room in a toning doc's house---it was lined with shelves that supported dozens of partially opened Wayte Raymond albums filled with coins, and there was a small space heater to further accelerate the toning process.
So, would those coins be considered to be naturally toned or artificially toned?
And yes, that is a serious question.
Album toning is considered NT. Specifically placing coins in albums to tone them would still be considered NT. Adding heat to the room with the hopes that you coins will develop toning is considered silly but still NT.
@bolivarshagnasty said:
Going by the PCGS Index located on the home page, the Silver and Gold Commemorative Index has fallen 43% in the last 10 years, or 26% in the last 3 years. Too much rim crust and flat white in the market if you ask me.
Yep. Dealers cases are full of them.
Even monster toned has come down a good 25% off their highs
mark
I don't follow this series, so forgive my ignorance. Other than the 1990s, when was the market high for the high end, quality toned stuff?
2008- 2014. They have slipped somewhat since then. Still multiples of guide
Mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Even monster toned has come down a good 25% off their highs
mark
I don't follow this series, so forgive my ignorance. Other than the 1990s, when was the market high for the high end, quality toned stuff?
2008- 2014. They have slipped somewhat since then. Still multiples of guide
Mark
Thanks!
The highs may have been earlier but I was just dabbling then
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Zoins said:
If heating coins in WR albums is MA, then it seems we know MA toning can be and is made.
Thats not the MA toning that the industry should be worried about. Its the gassing and other various chemistry set toning that is rampant right now. I long for the days when coin doctors would buy WR albums in a misguided attempt to tone coins.
@Zoins said:
If heating coins in WR albums is MA, then it seems we know MA toning can be and is made.
Thats not the MA toning that the industry should be worried about. Its the gassing and other various chemistry set toning that is rampant right now. I long for the days when coin doctors would buy WR albums in a misguided attempt to tone coins.
Are gassing and other chemical application MA? I thought that was not-MA.
It seems WR album heating may be MA, similar to how dipping is MA. If WR album heating is MA, a consequence may be that AT cannot be used to mean "accelerated toning".
@Zoins said:
If heating coins in WR albums is MA, then it seems we know MA toning can be and is made.
Thats not the MA toning that the industry should be worried about. Its the gassing and other various chemistry set toning that is rampant right now. I long for the days when coin doctors would buy WR albums in a misguided attempt to tone coins.
Are gassing and other chemical application MA? I thought that was not-MA.
It seems WR album heating may be MA, similar to how dipping is MA. If WR album heating is MA, a consequence may be that AT cannot be used to mean "accelerated toning".
They are not MA to most toning enthusiasts but if enough of those mass produced gassed/chemically altered coins are slabbed by PCGS or NGC they become MA by way of that endorsement. AT usually mean artificial toning. Accelerated toning can be NT, MA or AT.
And so the never ending debate continues. Of course, as in many debates, both sides have good points that can be supported by evidence. I spent a couple of years (about 13 years ago or so) dabbling in creating tarnish. I used common methods (tissue, sun, eggs) and other more exotic methods. At one point I developed a method so good it upset me... to the point I dismantled that project and dipped clean my experimental coins. That also included my other successful experiments such as textile toning (actually quite easy to duplicate). Since then, I frequently see coins that I am relatively sure were AT'd (based on my experience) but, admittedly, could also be NT. Please understand, this is not an attempt at braggadocio... but there are methods of artificial tarnish that NO ONE can detect. Sure, on a modern coin, flags go up immediately....however, color progression and 'levels' can be duplicated. I do not criticize anyone's preference in collecting - be it tarnish or blast white... that is a personal choice and I honor that. However, where I do take exception, is when statements are made about an individuals infallibility in judging the 'originality' of such tarnish. Yes - no doubt that a vast majority of coins can be determined, by a trained eye, to be original or AT.... certainly true. However, let me assure this vast audience, that the experts can be fooled...and if done properly, they can be deceived 100% of the time.
Cheers, RickO
This thread did make me pull out my old bookshelf Whitman albums of Walkers, Washington quarters and peace dollars. Over time, some of the AU and MS coins have picked up some rainbow toning around the edges, some have picked up some minor splotches of toning and others are as white as the day I bought them 20 to 30 years ago; some of these are right next to the coins that have toned. I also have a 1996 silver eagle in one of those Littleton holders which are known to tone coins, mine has absolute zero toning. Just shows that each coin reacts differently, even within the same space.
Ricko, that sounds like an interesting project. I've seen some attempts at textile toning also, and none of them that I saw would pass muster, at least to me.
@Zoins said:
If heating coins in WR albums is MA, then it seems we know MA toning can be and is made.
Thats not the MA toning that the industry should be worried about. Its the gassing and other various chemistry set toning that is rampant right now. I long for the days when coin doctors would buy WR albums in a misguided attempt to tone coins.
Are gassing and other chemical application MA? I thought that was not-MA.
It seems WR album heating may be MA, similar to how dipping is MA. If WR album heating is MA, a consequence may be that AT cannot be used to mean "accelerated toning".
They are not MA to most toning enthusiasts but if enough of those mass produced gassed/chemically altered coins are slabbed by PCGS or NGC they become MA by way of that endorsement. AT usually mean artificial toning. Accelerated toning can be NT, MA or AT.
Accelerated toning being MA is interesting. I recall years ago this wasn't the case and there were huge debates about it, similar to debates about whether dipping was MA, though at the time it seemed accelerated toning was less accepted and dipping was more accepted (primarily for its prevalence in the hobby).
Perhaps accelerated toning has "won" and is now MA along with dipping? It was too late for dipping because too many coins had been dipped. It may be too late for accelerated toning now. Over time it may be too late for the other things mentioned. If it is too late for accelerated and other types of toning, it would be interesting to see ANA classes on creating accelerated toned MA coins.
I've seen fairly high prices of slabbed non-MA / AT coins going up and, based on this, I expect more experiments to occur due to an attractive minimum return, resulting in better coloring and more coins getting into non-problem holders. This isn't to say any particular coin or type of toning is AT or not, just general trends. Laura has also mentioned a revival of doctoring recently. I like toned coins and have paid large premiums for them but it's still important to understand market dynamics.
@Zoins said:
If heating coins in WR albums is MA, then it seems we know MA toning can be and is made.
Thats not the MA toning that the industry should be worried about. Its the gassing and other various chemistry set toning that is rampant right now. I long for the days when coin doctors would buy WR albums in a misguided attempt to tone coins.
Are gassing and other chemical application MA? I thought that was not-MA.
It seems WR album heating may be MA, similar to how dipping is MA. If WR album heating is MA, a consequence may be that AT cannot be used to mean "accelerated toning".
They are not MA to most toning enthusiasts but if enough of those mass produced gassed/chemically altered coins are slabbed by PCGS or NGC they become MA by way of that endorsement. AT usually mean artificial toning. Accelerated toning can be NT, MA or AT.
Accelerated toning being MA is interesting. I recall years ago this wasn't the case and there were huge debates about it, similar to debates about whether dipping was MA, though at the time it seemed accelerated toning was less accepted and dipping was more accepted (primarily for its prevalence in the hobby).
Perhaps accelerated toning has "won" and is now MA along with dipping? It was too late for dipping because too many coins had been dipped. It may be too late for accelerated toning now. Over time it may be too late for the other things mentioned. If it is too late for accelerated and other types of toning, it would be interesting to see ANA classes on creating accelerated toned MA coins.
I've seen fairly high prices of slabbed non-MA / AT coins going up and, based on this, I expect more experiments to occur due to an attractive minimum return, resulting in better coloring and more coins getting into non-problem holders. This isn't to say any particular coin or type of toning is AT or not, just general trends. Laura has also mentioned a revival of doctoring recently. I like toned coins and have paid large premiums for them but it's still important to understand market dynamics.
If you are selling toned coins then everything in your inventory is NT and MA .
Slabbing of problem coins was a big debate for many years before it was offered.
Initially, I thought it was nice to slab problem AT coins because you could get TrueViews for them. But now that it's been going on for a while and we can see the rise of more AT coins, I'm starting to think it may be good for the hobby if top TPGs to stop slabbing AT coins to decrease the incentive.
I'd love to see a Hot Topics article from Laura on what's been happening with doctoring lately from her perspective.
@ricko said:
And so the never ending debate continues. Of course, as in many debates, both sides have good points that can be supported by evidence. I spent a couple of years (about 13 years ago or so) dabbling in creating tarnish. I used common methods (tissue, sun, eggs) and other more exotic methods. At one point I developed a method so good it upset me... to the point I dismantled that project and dipped clean my experimental coins. That also included my other successful experiments such as textile toning (actually quite easy to duplicate). Since then, I frequently see coins that I am relatively sure were AT'd (based on my experience) but, admittedly, could also be NT. Please understand, this is not an attempt at braggadocio... but there are methods of artificial tarnish that NO ONE can detect. Sure, on a modern coin, flags go up immediately....however, color progression and 'levels' can be duplicated. I do not criticize anyone's preference in collecting - be it tarnish or blast white... that is a personal choice and I honor that. However, where I do take exception, is when statements are made about an individuals infallibility in judging the 'originality' of such tarnish. Yes - no doubt that a vast majority of coins can be determined, by a trained eye, to be original or AT.... certainly true. However, let me assure this vast audience, that the experts can be fooled...and if done properly, they can be deceived 100% of the time.
Cheers, RickO
Photos ? Photos would be considered evidence. If I had spent several years perfecting methods to artificially tone coins to exacting standards I probably would have taken several (actually hundreds) of photos and created a course to teach others how to avoid AT coins. That would have been an invaluable resource to the community.
I do not doubt what you say and that coin doctors can do exactly what you claim. No one can be 100% certain as to a coin's originality, whether the coin is toned or blast white. Someone who is experience and well versed in their skill can dip a coin so as not to harm the coin's luster and add color to enhance its eye appeal. So no matter what you collect, there are no guarantees, not even if the coin is entombed in NGC/PCGS plastic, wrapped in a guaranty.
Since there's no fool-proof method to determine AT vs. NT we have to fall back to deductive reasoning. And if a collector understands and can spot impaired luster or unusual toning patterns because they themselves, as you did, did some experimentation or sought out and slabbed raw toned coins, they will have a much better knowledge base to understand both.
The true question IMO is...
What's a blast white coin! Wouldn't that be considered artificial ? IMO "Yes" it has been stripped from its original patina through out the years.
Although I do collect toned coins... I can't lie and say I don't like a pretty black on white DMPL or Proof coin with black on white contrast!
This question has I'm sure and will continue to be brought up for years to come by many. Or those whom may not understand toning. Reasons why is yes there are some Artificicial Toners that have made it into holders. Same as "accelerated" coins have made it into holders as well. Not very many but some do tend to slip through the cracks Unfornually...
Also unfortunally a blast white coin has been altered to return back its original intended look when minted, which was white.
The best way IMO is to once again do some research for the newer collector. Set a price range on what one can afford and go from there. If toning is something one may intend to want to pursue. Then once again research it first to ensure you get whatcha want. I would recommend to do not just for toned coins. But whatever series one may decide on collecting
Also unfortunally a blast white coin has been altered to return back its original intended look when minted, which was white.
This is not possible. While you can pretty much dip any coin white, restoring cartwheel luster is impossible once it's gone. Attempts to recreate the radial flow lines (erasering for example) are ridiculously easy to spot.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
To my knowledge, the coin in the video has never been dipped. I got it about 12 years ago. However presuming that at some point this coin had been briefly dipped to remove color, I would still say it has 99% original surfaces while the previous example has maybe 30% original surfaces at best.
You can go from a blast white lustrous coin to the dull MS65 example I posted first. All you need is a lot of years and oxidation. However you can NEVER go in the other direction. Coin A can never become coin B no matter what you do with it.
So honestly, which is more original?
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
To my knowledge, the coin in the video has never been dipped. I got it about 12 years ago. However presuming that at some point this coin had been briefly dipped to remove color, I would still say it has 99% original surfaces while the previous example has maybe 30% original surfaces at best.
You can go from a blast white lustrous coin to the dull MS65 example I posted first. All you need is a lot of years and oxidation. However you can NEVER go in the other direction. Coin A can never become coin B no matter what you do with it.
So honestly, which is more original?
Coin B will also reoxidize at some point and look like coin A... again.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comments
The acidic solution also can destroy flow lines and thus luster. This is what happens when you use dip that is too concentrated for too long and "overdip" the piece. Also if you think that chemically treated/processed coins are more indicative of originality, then you and the rest of the numismatic community have very different definitions of "original" and "originality" IMHO. Original to me means that it is unmolested and hasn't been doctored, treated, processed, insert your choice of adjective here, etc.
Everyone has their opinions on where the coin market is going but I'm going to maintain that it's a mixture of grade inflation, too many of the nicest coins locked up in baby boomer collections, and forgive me for saying this, a total garbage heap of leftovers in dealer inventories and auctions. I wasn't kidding when I said I couldn't find a single coin I would buy in the recent Heritage auction archives and I meant it.
Is the market also soft? Maybe but I don't think there's any way to tell unless you can compare like for like. I'll have a much better idea where the TRUE market is when my auctions end next weekend.
Nope, I never said that originality had anything to do with being dipped white. A white coin can be every bit as damaged as a toned coin.
The difference is white coins with damaged luster are bodybagged as "overdipped" while toned coins with damaged luster receive MS67 grades.
Anyway my definition of "original" is strictly based on how intact the original mint luster is on the coin. I disagree with all dealers, some long time collectors, and practically zero people new to the hobby. I think people start with a desire for white coins because they sparkle and they like them. I think people end up buying blown out toners because of the constant and unrelenting drumbeat of "IT'S ORIGINAL!! IT'S NATURAL!! ONLY NOOBS LIKE WHITE COINS!! THAT IWOG GUY IS CRAZY!!"
Every auction and every dealer and every ebay seller of a lusterless dog with brown toning says it's original. All of them. Most of those coins are not original.
Going by the PCGS Index located on the home page, the Silver and Gold Commemorative Index has fallen 43% in the last 10 years, or 26% in the last 3 years. Too much rim crust and flat white in the market if you ask me.
Yep. Dealers cases are full of them.
Even monster toned has come down a good 25% off their highs
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I call BS on the generalization.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Luckily we have a specific example right in this thread. However that example was an extremely rare coin with a good pedigree.
So in your opinion, how many lesser AT coins are currently in slabs and how do you know?
Your rabbit hole is not one I'm willing to go down. Good luck Mr Iwog. I think ignoring your prattle is my best move.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Sort of reminds me of the old Warner Brothers cartoons... After Wile E. Coyote has gone over the cliff...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I apologize. I thought you wanted to talk about the prevalence (or lack thereof) of AT coins in the market today. Your participation in this thread had me confused.
I thought it was a very reasonable question but whatever floats your boat. Buy what you like!
Does anyone other than me think that popular storage methods 30 years ago and the advent of TOG slabbing has contributed to coins being toned?
Storage methods in use 50-100 years ago contributed to coins being toned before the more recent toned-coin fad. Dyes in velvet can outgas and deposit on coins, for example. The old Wayte Raymond coin albums are still prized because they can lead to coins acquiring colorful toning. Years ago, I saw a photo of a room in a toning doc's house---it was lined with shelves that supported dozens of partially opened Wayte Raymond albums filled with coins, and there was a small space heater to further accelerate the toning process.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
In the late 80's at the Long Beach shows there were a few dealers selling colorful toned dollars. Not AT'd , I bought a few at the time still have them..
Hard core collector now for 42 years
There will always be two types of collectors ...blasted white and toned. I have a hard time believing that 150+ yr. old original red copper coins still exists today.
The supply of toned coins will always be able to increase while the supply of coins with intact luster can only decrease. Oxidation is a one way process.
For me, if I look at a white 50 piece commem set, it does nothing for me. If I look at a 50 piece toned set like Greg Binghams or other nice ones, it's lots of ooohs and ahhhs like being at a fireworks display. No contest for me.....
There's probably no TPG grader or leading dealer who would call putting coins in WR holders (even with a space heater going) as being artificial or doctoring. That toning is prized today whether accelerated or not. The Colonel Green silver coins that ended up in Newman often seemed to be dipped/treated coins that were later placed in albums, receiving glorious looking toning over the ensuing. They got high grades and appear to be universally loved.
One time only I wanted to see what accelerated toning on a window sill did. I cracked out a superb, blazing, 64+ 1890 PCGS MS64 seated quarter out of a rattler (1988). Except for a touch of planchet roughness just to the left of the date, it was superb. After 12-18 months of being wrapped in yellow tissue paper it had yellows and purples over 100% of the surfaces. It was probably too much. I sent it in for grading and got the "expected" BB. It was later sent off raw to a major auction. I did see that coin show up in a major auction around 5 years ago....it was in a top tier MS65 holder. That sort of surprised me. The planchet flow/toning irregularity to the left of the date was still obvious. I guess the accelerated tissue-toning was acceptable today.
We'll have to disagree on this point, RR. The photo I saw of that room, with all of those U. S. coins in WR albums on shelves, partially opened and being heated, shocked me. In my view, this wasn't different from some clown using an electrochemical process to rapidly and colorfully tone coins, to be later sold raw on Ebay, or gassing coins while they sat in old Mint bags.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Like them CH BU
SDR, I guess we disagree. I see the accelerated album toning as generally market acceptable and the short term application of chemicals or toning via ovens, electrolysis, etc. as being out of bounds. I'm looking at this from the TPG/market acceptable view point, not necessarily my personal view, which doesn't matter.
I've had some coin albums in my home before, sitting not far from baseboard heating. They weren't open though. If the demarcation line is open vs. unopened album, who can detect that? What about storage in a cardboard 2X2 or a paper sulfur flip so often used in the 1960's and 1970's? It's all accelerated toning vs. coins just left alone in a drawer or inert plastic holder.
Market acceptability is not something I question. I actually prefer toned coins to blast white (or pale gold) ones. What has disturbed me for some time is how easy it is to produce toning that is market acceptable.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I like 'toner stoner'. Has a ring to it.
I have nearly a dozen Morgan toners that I really enjoy looking at - I also have three MS white dollars as well that are great lookers (though the LSD has most certainly taken a dip at some point). There are oodles of toned dollars out there that I would pass on. There are oodles of white dollars that I would pass on.
My experience would suggest that there are toners out there 'locked up' in collections, an observation that has has been posted. But toners do appear over time, the market is active, and inventory, while not plentiful, does appear at auction. LRCA Northern Lights collection auctions have featured some splendid toners, and there are more coming up for sale. I'll be doing battle for an upcoming 1904-O (but will likely be nuked out of the water during the bidding) from this very nice toned collection.
It is great to see a respectful exchange of differing points of view.
I would REALLY have enjoyed seeing those original mint bags opened!!
"I would REALLY have enjoyed seeing those original mint bags opened!!"
Yep, especially the Battle Creek bags. NGC's announcements were inconsistent and a bit cryptic in my opinion. That hoard contained an exceptionally large number of colorfully toned Morgan dollars in each bag.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
**The pressure to keep these "Market acceptable" is enormous and collectors are CONSTANTLY being told in every single auction catalog that these are lovely, desired, and original **
it seems to me that the evolution of a true collector is from lower to higher and that typically means from seeing coins which are ordinary to seeing coins which are extra-ordinary. that has been my experience and I expect that others will agree. I well recall when I first saw deep cameo coins after having thought brilliant was the norm. I recall first seeing nicely toned coins after only knowing what brilliant white ones looked like.
no one needed to pressure me into thinking they were nicer, I managed that by myself.
Everyone should collect what they like. There are beer can collections worth millions.
That being said, the Emperor's New Clothes is a fairy tale about how people are affected by group think (or market acceptability) and this has been well studied. People who are told a wine costs hundreds of dollars will report it tastes better. Art critics who are told a famous artist painted a masterpiece will report how wonderful it is, even if it was painted by gorillas.
I'm pretty sure that if a major AT scandal broke out with hundreds of examples being liquidated at auctions, those coins will........forgive me........lose some of their luster.
I don't follow this series, so forgive my ignorance. Other than the 1990s, when was the market high for the high end, quality toned stuff?
I think there numerous artificially toned modern coins in TPG plastic. How do I know ? I dont know. However, I know toning on modern coins. There are dozens of coins on Ebay right now with toning that Ive never seen outside of plastic slab. That's usually my first clue. My second clue is when there are dozens to hundreds of examples with the same toning pattern across several different denominations. Each coin is different, each metallic composition of each coin is different, even how each coin is stored is different. Even how each coin is set into an album is different. One side of the rim being slight raised which will change the airflow over the coin. And thus even in the same album two coins sitting right next to each other from different years will tone differently. One may not tone at all. True NT is almost a hit or miss proposition.
Therefore when you see the same toning pattern on Ikes, JFKs, Roosies, Jeffs ect... you kinda have to believe that it was recreated by human hands and is not natural.
Agreed, especially when it is splotchy with odd color progressions if there is any real progression at all.
So, would those coins be considered to be naturally toned or artificially toned?
And yes, that is a serious question.
There is no chemical difference between AT and NT. It's like looking at a gold coin and paying extra if the gold came from California instead of Alaska.
My solution is pretty simple. I concentrate on an attribute that can never be added to a coin but can always be subtracted.
The market considers such coins NT. I don't, but I cannot tell the difference between heat-accelerated album toning and what I consider natural toning. Toning that comes from a chemical compound that volatilizes from something near a coin, like dyed velvet, is not something that I consider natural (and should dissolve off with prolonged exposure to acetone).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Album toning is considered NT. Specifically placing coins in albums to tone them would still be considered NT. Adding heat to the room with the hopes that you coins will develop toning is considered silly but still NT.
2008- 2014. They have slipped somewhat since then. Still multiples of guide
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Thanks!
The highs may have been earlier but I was just dabbling then
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If heating coins in WR albums is MA, then it seems we know MA toning can be and is made.
Thats not the MA toning that the industry should be worried about. Its the gassing and other various chemistry set toning that is rampant right now. I long for the days when coin doctors would buy WR albums in a misguided attempt to tone coins.
Are gassing and other chemical application MA? I thought that was not-MA.
It seems WR album heating may be MA, similar to how dipping is MA. If WR album heating is MA, a consequence may be that AT cannot be used to mean "accelerated toning".
They are not MA to most toning enthusiasts but if enough of those mass produced gassed/chemically altered coins are slabbed by PCGS or NGC they become MA by way of that endorsement. AT usually mean artificial toning. Accelerated toning can be NT, MA or AT.
And so the never ending debate continues. Of course, as in many debates, both sides have good points that can be supported by evidence. I spent a couple of years (about 13 years ago or so) dabbling in creating tarnish. I used common methods (tissue, sun, eggs) and other more exotic methods. At one point I developed a method so good it upset me... to the point I dismantled that project and dipped clean my experimental coins. That also included my other successful experiments such as textile toning (actually quite easy to duplicate). Since then, I frequently see coins that I am relatively sure were AT'd (based on my experience) but, admittedly, could also be NT. Please understand, this is not an attempt at braggadocio... but there are methods of artificial tarnish that NO ONE can detect. Sure, on a modern coin, flags go up immediately....however, color progression and 'levels' can be duplicated. I do not criticize anyone's preference in collecting - be it tarnish or blast white... that is a personal choice and I honor that. However, where I do take exception, is when statements are made about an individuals infallibility in judging the 'originality' of such tarnish. Yes - no doubt that a vast majority of coins can be determined, by a trained eye, to be original or AT.... certainly true. However, let me assure this vast audience, that the experts can be fooled...and if done properly, they can be deceived 100% of the time.
Cheers, RickO
This thread did make me pull out my old bookshelf Whitman albums of Walkers, Washington quarters and peace dollars. Over time, some of the AU and MS coins have picked up some rainbow toning around the edges, some have picked up some minor splotches of toning and others are as white as the day I bought them 20 to 30 years ago; some of these are right next to the coins that have toned. I also have a 1996 silver eagle in one of those Littleton holders which are known to tone coins, mine has absolute zero toning. Just shows that each coin reacts differently, even within the same space.
Ricko, that sounds like an interesting project. I've seen some attempts at textile toning also, and none of them that I saw would pass muster, at least to me.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
Accelerated toning being MA is interesting. I recall years ago this wasn't the case and there were huge debates about it, similar to debates about whether dipping was MA, though at the time it seemed accelerated toning was less accepted and dipping was more accepted (primarily for its prevalence in the hobby).
Perhaps accelerated toning has "won" and is now MA along with dipping? It was too late for dipping because too many coins had been dipped. It may be too late for accelerated toning now. Over time it may be too late for the other things mentioned. If it is too late for accelerated and other types of toning, it would be interesting to see ANA classes on creating accelerated toned MA coins.
I've seen fairly high prices of slabbed non-MA / AT coins going up and, based on this, I expect more experiments to occur due to an attractive minimum return, resulting in better coloring and more coins getting into non-problem holders. This isn't to say any particular coin or type of toning is AT or not, just general trends. Laura has also mentioned a revival of doctoring recently. I like toned coins and have paid large premiums for them but it's still important to understand market dynamics.
If you are selling toned coins then everything in your inventory is NT and MA .
Slabbing of problem coins was a big debate for many years before it was offered.
Initially, I thought it was nice to slab problem AT coins because you could get TrueViews for them. But now that it's been going on for a while and we can see the rise of more AT coins, I'm starting to think it may be good for the hobby if top TPGs to stop slabbing AT coins to decrease the incentive.
I'd love to see a Hot Topics article from Laura on what's been happening with doctoring lately from her perspective.
Photos ? Photos would be considered evidence. If I had spent several years perfecting methods to artificially tone coins to exacting standards I probably would have taken several (actually hundreds) of photos and created a course to teach others how to avoid AT coins. That would have been an invaluable resource to the community.
I do not doubt what you say and that coin doctors can do exactly what you claim. No one can be 100% certain as to a coin's originality, whether the coin is toned or blast white. Someone who is experience and well versed in their skill can dip a coin so as not to harm the coin's luster and add color to enhance its eye appeal. So no matter what you collect, there are no guarantees, not even if the coin is entombed in NGC/PCGS plastic, wrapped in a guaranty.
Since there's no fool-proof method to determine AT vs. NT we have to fall back to deductive reasoning. And if a collector understands and can spot impaired luster or unusual toning patterns because they themselves, as you did, did some experimentation or sought out and slabbed raw toned coins, they will have a much better knowledge base to understand both.
The true question IMO is...
What's a blast white coin! Wouldn't that be considered artificial ? IMO "Yes" it has been stripped from its original patina through out the years.
Although I do collect toned coins... I can't lie and say I don't like a pretty black on white DMPL or Proof coin with black on white contrast!
This question has I'm sure and will continue to be brought up for years to come by many. Or those whom may not understand toning. Reasons why is yes there are some Artificicial Toners that have made it into holders. Same as "accelerated" coins have made it into holders as well. Not very many but some do tend to slip through the cracks Unfornually...
Also unfortunally a blast white coin has been altered to return back its original intended look when minted, which was white.
The best way IMO is to once again do some research for the newer collector. Set a price range on what one can afford and go from there. If toning is something one may intend to want to pursue. Then once again research it first to ensure you get whatcha want. I would recommend to do not just for toned coins. But whatever series one may decide on collecting
Everyone should know what a blast white coin looks like. Maybe some have tried to forget because they are getting so rare in some cases.
This is not possible. While you can pretty much dip any coin white, restoring cartwheel luster is impossible once it's gone. Attempts to recreate the radial flow lines (erasering for example) are ridiculously easy to spot.
This is what most connecticut commemoratives look like today in MS65-MS67 holders:
This is what Connecticut commemoratives looked like when they left the mint. All of them:
To my knowledge, the coin in the video has never been dipped. I got it about 12 years ago. However presuming that at some point this coin had been briefly dipped to remove color, I would still say it has 99% original surfaces while the previous example has maybe 30% original surfaces at best.
You can go from a blast white lustrous coin to the dull MS65 example I posted first. All you need is a lot of years and oxidation. However you can NEVER go in the other direction. Coin A can never become coin B no matter what you do with it.
So honestly, which is more original?
Coin B will also reoxidize at some point and look like coin A... again.
@Iwog said
This is what most connecticut commemoratives look like today in MS65-MS67 holders.
@Justacommeman says
BS.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......