The funny thing is most of the self proclaimed experts on toning were not even collecting coins when this thread was started let alone a deacde ago. One thing I can say for certain is there is at least 10X the amount of Morgan bag toners out there now compared to when this thread was started in 2003. Think about that a little bit.............
Uh...It's a wonder that at the age of 16 0r17 I fell in love with toned coins without ever seeing an article, hearing any of the propaganda, and all the other "expert" crap.
Not to say markets aren't made, but coin dealers and collectors need to get it in their heads that not all collectors are Lemmings, and prone to hypnosis.
I am alarmed at how many AT coins I am seeing these days. More alarming is the amount of folks buying them.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
<< <i>The funny thing is most of the self proclaimed experts on toning were not even collecting coins when this thread was started let alone a deacde ago. One thing I can say for certain is there is at least 10X the amount of Morgan bag toners out there now compared to when this thread was started in 2003. Think about that a little bit............. >>
It is very interesting to think about and this is also mentioned in the OP. There are certainly high premiums for toned Morgans. Shane had a good post in the nuclear thead where he mentions morgans:
<< <i>I think the number of players paying $2000 to $10000 for common date toned morgans is still a small fraction of the overall collecting pool.....but I see them at the greatest financial risk >>
<< <i>I like the toners because of their eye appeal and the associated time required to attain the toning.
uh, JBN, haven't you been reading the thread at all?? in many instances that "associated time" is less than a minute. >>
Yes, it was an interesting thread. As I mentioned.
To respond specifically to your point, I would submit that the coins that you cite (toned in less than a minute) would possess obvious enough properties such that the expertise @ PCGS, the knowledge/experience of a reputable coin dealer, or those @ CAC for that matter, would identify the coin as AT. Even with my very limited experience and my limited expertise (in part garnered from pix/examples in the coin grading book by PCGS) allows me to identify coins that are glaringly artificially toned. I fully admit that I could not detect the better AT coins. That is why I trust in the aforementioned 'defense-in-depth' to ensure - to the extent practicable - that my toners are original, unmolested examples.
<< <i>Everyone is entitled to an opinion and you're no exception. One of the nice things about this hobby is that there's room for everyone to enjoy whatever the heck flips their switch. I think one thing that goes unsaid in threads like this is that sometimes newbie collectors, and even some seasoned collectors fall for the hype of unscrupulous dealers who want to dump whatever the flavor of the day coin is. If you're serious about coin collecting, you will read, you will research, you will see as many coins as possible, you will seek out those collectors and dealers who specialize in your particular area of interest and you will soak up every bit of education and information about a given coin, or series.
For someone to compare brown ugly toned coins with fantastically toned Morgans, commems, or any other coin that has attained natural toning merely shows a bias. Toning, in it's purest form, enhances the look of a coin and gives it character. That's my own opinion. When you study the patterns and intricacies of toning, you come to appreciate just how delicate a balance you have to have to get a monster toned coin. That being said, I agree with you that when the SCUM OF THE EARTH DOCTORS came into the scene, well - at least came out from hiding, the market for these coins suffered and continues to suffer greatly.
Bottom line, there's ample opportunity for both lovers of white coins and lovers of toned coins to co-exist. In my mind the whole thing boils down to the education factor. If you buy schlock coins with bad toning thinking they're monsters - shame on you. Go back to reading and studying. However, if you see something extraordinary, something that's truly unique because it's made by the natural interaction of silver with the elments, it can be a sight to behold.
With hopefully GSAGUY's permission - give me something like this, and I'll chose it over it's white counterpart any day.
Frank
I'm with ya all the way, buddy!! Very well said....Best regards.....Joe
>>
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Yes an interesting read for sure. It is my opinion that a large portion (perhaps 1/3 or more overall when eBay is considered) of toned coin sellers are kitchen or garage based hacks that are in it for the money, cooking up a fresh batch each week, and making bank deposits on Mondays. Another subset of sellers with predatory tactics are those that sell natural toned coins in NGC/PCGS slabs but the dang photos are juiced, further enticing bidding frenzies. Then there are the sellers who advertise rainbow toned coins but all the coin has is a slight tinge of gold or brown for that matter. These types of sellers are reaping the benefits of the marketing executed by the large auction houses and dealers for truly exceptional color coins and the strong prices they command.
Rainbow toning is just that, with some coins exhibiting vivid primary colors or complex blends that have formed over time, undisturbed - in just the right conditions, in either monochromatic hues or banded rings or waves that don't hinder underlying luster. If a coin is anything close to this and grades near gem or better than you have a keeper. The bland (to me) all white coins are almost always dipped, and to me that is when the original skin or patina is removed forever. How can this be good? and how can a silver dollar sit around since 1880 and not begin to tone in some way? When I pondered these questions myself I soon began to stay away from white coins, it just made sense to me. With all the pressure from high silver prices and the desire to melt them, and coins being ruined by cheesy coin doctors, and those that dip coins "sensibly", high-end toned coins will just continue to go up and up as the pool is shrinking folks!
I got into toned coins vicariously through my Father in the early to mid 1970's when I was just a kid, and started collecting them myself around 1980. As a fine artist, color was flat-out more appealing to me, but I realize everyone has their own preferences. My Dad and I would go to some local dealers looking for Morgan dollars, and we found one that did not dip them, though we did not even know that was common-place at the time. The going rate for common date Gem BU Morgans then was about $18.00-$20.00, but I remember several colorful PL/DMPL coins he purchased for around $28.50, of course these were natural. Anyone could see the quality was there, and it just seemed to make sense to give a few dollars more for a much prettier coin.
Toners were definitely available before 1995, so I tend to disagree with the original poster's comment. Some of you may remember or know about something that a prominent and knowledgeable dealer told me awhile back; that one of the large auction houses in the mid 1980's offered a huge catalog of stunning toned coins, and that they had actually hired a degreed chemist who worked for months getting every "prepped" for the sale, based in California I believe. I wonder if there was only one such sale. The toned coin market was already taking off before TPG companies had formed in '86.
Someone in this thread mentioned that there will always be toned coins to dip, and white coins to artificially tone, but one needs to consider that there was only one block of time where the bulk of the truly stunning color coins were born of their natural surroundings. That time has come and gone, where air from the late industrial revolution was swirling about, lead paint prevailed, wood fires and steam plants were the norm, and government regulations were few. Mint-fresh sewn shut canvas bags sat around in bank vaults (some first in and last out of those vaults) for decades - creating the kind of coins that everyone is talking about. Those cream of the crop less-than-one-percent of all toned specimens are the wonder coins that everyone says they have but don't and every coin doc strives to build but can't. These coins exist but are elusive, and are driving the whole thing. If someone wants a real deal high-end coin, they are going to have to paw through hundreds of original un-messed with raw coins and submit 'em themselves to the grading companies hoping they don't get shot down, or they can negotiate a price for a piece from a reputable dealer. The downside to all this dishonesty is that this part of the hobby has been hurt, and continues to be at the hands of these shady people.
I for one find it a rewarding challenge to be in the search, but there are setbacks with buying online and there are inconsistencies with TPG companies' opinion on authenticity. I just received the largest batch I have ever submitted at one time (75 coins) last week, and I wonder if my luck would have been better had I sent in smaller batches. Granted, they actually were in different tiers, some modern and some pre 1955, and they were split up among both services. I did receive my first ever MS67 graded coins though, 3 in all from both services, but got some body bags too. It has also been my experience that MS66 is some kind of threshold that is difficult to cross, especially when submitting toners. The one common denominator this time though with the 67's was luster, it must be intense or they won't grade that high. Some of the disappointments came from a complete set of Jeffersons ('38 to '64) in a 1960's era Capital plastics holder I bought that I know was built along time ago and had sat completed for perhaps as long as 40 years. The toning patterns were all very similar, and yet 2 of about 18 coins I sent in were details graded as AT. Out of immense curiosity I will send these to the other service and see what sticks. This of course is another subject entirely.
I have been passionate about trying to inform those just getting into the realm of toned coins of the pitfalls that are commonplace these days, and the dark side of this otherwise exciting market for many years. I have written a couple of eBay guides about it, literally helping hundreds of novice collectors save thousands of dollars collectively over the last few years. I like to think I've had a direct negative effect on the sales figures of some of these scammers, if you have not seen it, you might find it interesting (see link below). I try to answer all questions, but sometimes fail as I work a lot of hours. I will soon be writing some articles on this subject for a popular ezine. Stay tuned.
<< <i>The fact remains, tarnish is environmental damage [...] >>
RickO, please hear this. Corrosion is "environmental damage." Something that can be easily stripped off the coin by a dip for just one second in something as readily-available as Tarn-X, well, for whatever that is, it isn't "environmental damage."
but one needs to consider that there was only one block of time where the bulk of the truly stunning color coins were born of their natural surroundings. That time has come and gone,
I would pretty much agree....nowadays, most mints and entities that "holder" coins are now aware of what makes them "tarnish" and they try to not facilitate that by holdering coins in inert holders.....which makes me think.......I'll start a new thread....
So, if toning is corrosion, it stands to reason that the coin would eventually disappear. Since nothing even remotely related to that happens, please stop using misleading comments. This only confuses new collectors. As far as all the white coins, I guarantee you that a good amount have been dipped, i.e., stripped of metal. That indeed is damage, and accepted by the market to some degree. Why? Because otherwise there would be an awful lot of coins not selling. So, if you are going to come across as an expert, let's give a true and full discourse on the subject. This is objectivity. An expert can, and must, be objective.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
<< <i>You want the truth? You want the truth???? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!
Okay, here's the truth........
About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! >>
As I imperfectly channel the Colonel I feel obligated to respond:
Gosh, all those tens of thousands of toners in the Continental Bank hoard (1983'ish) were "done"? Where did Ed Milas find the time? Perhaps he subcontracted to the CCC (Coin Cosmetologist Collective)
Not even close to the truth.
Seek on, pilgrim .........
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Good point. It's amazing how some people can just mentally wander down roads that just don't exist in real life...and then write articles on their 'fantastic' journeys!
@Iwog said:
How long until everyone has all the toned coins they want and the market goes away? How long until everyone is left holding that $300 Lady Di Beanie Baby and suddenly realize there aren't any buyers left?
14 years later, the toner market is strong as ever.
I was following this one recently. It had an estimate of $1500-$2000 and sold for $4,465!
while that medal sold strong I think it is a poor example to help illustrate the strength of the toned coin market. it represents a niche area of the Hobby and is itself a medal sought by collectors who don't typically collect SC$'s.
I see it as an anomaly cubed that might be buried.
@keets said:
while that medal sold strong I think it is a poor example to help illustrate the strength of the toned coin market. it represents a niche area of the Hobby and is itself a medal sought by collectors who don't typically collect SC$'s.
I see it as an anomaly cubed that might be buried.
As you say, it is collected by some collectors that don't typically collect SCDs. Because of that, it could be a better example than the typical SCD because it is collected by coin collectors in addition to medal collectors. Additionally, just two collectors can make a strong market as we've seen in many series.
And while any one piece can be a anomaly there are many other pieces to list as well. I follow toned SCDs and all the ones I've seen have sold for healthy premiums. I also follow toned Morgans like the recently sold 1883-O I posted in your thread.
A great, old thread! Almost as much fun as reading Bear's 'Coinalot.' Andy Lustig's explanation for 3-legged buffalo nickels was a hoot (good image too).
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
@Elmhurst said:
I like my silver with a light champagne toning...gives it some character and shows that it's original...and goes well with my Pol Roger.
I hate to break this to you but the original point of this thread 14 years ago is that toning doesn't mean it's original at all.
I have personally watched "original" tab toning applied to a blast white commemorative using an old cardboard holder and a few chemicals. There's no way to tell the difference.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
Wasn't here in 2003. Read the entire thread. Discussion will be around in another 10 years. I found D. Halls comment to be educational in a historical way.
**_"I remember seeing many, many beautiful rainbow toned Morgans in the 1960s and 1970s...many of them from truly original bags (1000 coins) that showed up at the time. They definitely did exist and they existed in large numbers.
You can read Wayne Miller's silver dollar book and his "thin film interference" explanation for some of the science.
In the late 1970s, I advertised "Gem BU" Morgan dollars for $10 each, but I was getting $25 a coin for outrageous toners.
Gorgeous rainbow toned type coins and commemoratives were also available. What you didn't see was very many toned Peace dollars, Mercury dimes, and Walking Liberty halves (or Buffalo nickels for that matter)...at least that's how I remember it.
And the idea that there is no such thing as a blast white silver coin that hasn't been dipped is just not true. As late as the 1990s I can remeber original rolls of Walkers, Mercuries, and silver Washingtons with blazing white undipped gems filling those totally original bank wrapped rolls. And there were type coin rolls...many blast white...in the 1970s. There were the original rolls of Barber dimes that Ron Gillio had at a Long Beach show in the 1970s. And in about 1974, Fred Malone had an original roll of 1872-S half dimes. I think it was Jack Beymer who had a roll of 1892-S Barber halves. Ah...those were the days.
The point is...beautiful, totally original, outrageously toned rainbow coins have been around for a long time.
@Iwog said:
How long until everyone has all the toned coins they want and the market goes away? How long until everyone is left holding that $300 Lady Di Beanie Baby and suddenly realize there aren't any buyers left?
14 years later, the toner market is strong as ever.
I was following this one recently. It had an estimate of $1500-$2000 and sold for $4,465!
For every colorful lustrous coin that sells for multiples of bid, there are a thousand oxidized coins that can't even make the minimum or the reserve. You're talking about the exceptions, not the rule.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
Yup. Collect what you like but everyone should at least consider the big picture. The most salient point of the OP is the thought that toning can be manufactured but not luster. From a preservation & conservation point of view, anything that accelerates or promotes degradation of the original surfaces should be shunned. This includes basically all AT techniques and dipping in the majority of cases.
Market forces are powerful and unfortunately people tend to be VERY susceptible to marketing efforts.
**_"I remember seeing many, many beautiful rainbow toned Morgans in the 1960s and 1970s...many of them from truly original bags (1000 coins) that showed up at the time. They definitely did exist and they existed in large numbers.
I don't want to fight with Mr. Hall but this simply wasn't true. Wandering around a coin show in 1976 was an entirely different experience than in the 1990s or the 2000s. Specifically talking about rainbow toned Morgans, while they did indeed enjoy a premium, they were as rare as hen's teeth.
I haven't been to a show recently but contrast that with a thousand slabbed Morgans in a dealer's case that all have approximately the same rainbow toning and you can see the problem. The supply should have shrunk as these coins were locked up in long term collections or dipped or destroyed in some other way. They shouldn't be multiplying like rabbits.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
And the idea that there is no such thing as a blast white silver coin that hasn't been dipped is just not true. As late as the 1990s I can remeber original rolls of Walkers, Mercuries, and silver Washingtons with blazing white undipped gems filling those totally original bank wrapped rolls. And there were type coin rolls...many blast white...in the 1970s. There were the original rolls of Barber dimes that Ron Gillio had at a Long Beach show in the 1970s. And in about 1974, Fred Malone had an original roll of 1872-S half dimes. I think it was Jack Beymer who had a roll of 1892-S Barber halves. Ah...those were the days.
I agree that blast white silver coins that haven't been dipped are pretty common in some series. I have an original capped-toned roll of Washington Carver commemoratives that are mostly blast white and untoned.
That being said, in the 1960s nearly every single coin put in a dealer case was dipped. I've heard this repeatedly, over and over again, from old time collectors and dealers who are probably long deceased now. I've heard it so many times that I can't possibly doubt it was true. My conclusion has always been that the majority of collectible coins that existed in dealer inventory or collector's hands from the 60s or prior had the toning removed. Not all, but most.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
I don't think anyone can dispute that there were lots of pretty Morgans around after the mint releases. There are books from the era that show plenty of them. The question is how many of the now extant coins had "help." I have my opinions, but no proof. Of all collectors, silver dollar people are an odd bunch. They tend to prefer blast white or brilliant rainbows. Everything in between is no good.
What we have here is a failure to produce any meaningful dialogue. Some coins are White some coins are Toned. Of the white coins; some are that way because they are dipped and others because they were originally that way, and on the Toned side; some are that way because the toning was actively induced, while other naturally reacted to the environment they were stored in.
Moral of the Story. Education is the key and we should strive for coins that are ORIGINAL. That is ORIGINAL White or ORIGINAL Toned depending on what "floats your boat." Liking one does not make the other bad. In fact, any well put together collection would have both, not by design, but because of qaulity choices. The rest is just Silly, Silly Silly.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
@BryceM said:
I don't think anyone can dispute that there were lots of pretty Morgans around after the mint releases. There are books from the era that show plenty of them. The question is how many of the now extant coins had "help." I have my opinions, but no proof. Of all collectors, silver dollar people are an odd bunch. They tend to prefer blast white or brilliant rainbows. Everything in between is no good.
Wouldn't they have to be pretty rare to justify being in a vintage book? I haven't seen the pictures you are talking about however if these coins look like the THOUSANDS you can see at any coin show, why exactly would anyone buy a book about them?
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
I wish I still had the group of brand new bronze Lincolns that I did various things to.
Didn't image coins back then.
I put them in sealed coffee cans and labeled the cans.
Some were naked, some were in manila envelopes, some in flips, some in 2x2s, and some in combination with some chunks of sulfurated potash.
NONE in slabs. Although I would have liked to try.
of all the various methods of storage, the mylar 2x2 stapled 4 times came out the best. (least affected)
However, NOW maybe some of the others would be THE coins to have.
Personally I can not understand how a coin that's over a hundred years old could possibly still be white. Just like antique dealers and collectors will tell you that if it does not have some sort of undisturbed patina it been ruined. Same with coins. There's no freaking way that a coin from the 1800's are still blast white without some sort of help.
To each their own. Do whatever floats your boat.
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@crazyhounddog said:
Personally I can not understand how a coin that's over a hundred years old could possibly still be white. Just like antique dealers and collectors will tell you that if it does not have some sort of undisturbed patina it been ruined. Same with coins. There's no freaking way that a coin from the 1800's are still blast white without some sort of help.
To each their own. Do whatever floats your boat.
It's possible when the coins are stored in rolls or bags. It's the large surface area of the silver compared to the very limited amount of sulfur dioxide that can leech into the storage device.
This is the way silver boxes work for sterling flatware. The cloth is saturated with tiny particles of silver to oxidize enough gas that it doesn't tarnish the sterling.
IMO the only way to truly determine how damaged the surface of a coin is would be some measurement, certainly subjective, of how lustrous the coin is.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
When I went to the West Point Depository (before it became a Mint)
to examine the CC dollars for the GSA sale, (for errors), they were
putting the toned coins in the "Uncirculated" holders, because they
thought that toned coins wouldn't be accepted by dealers at the
price they were selling the 'normal' white coins for.......
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
"IMO the only way to truly determine how damaged the surface of a coin is would be some measurement, certainly subjective, of how lustrous the coin is."
Lack of luster does not always indicate that the surface of a coin was damaged by prior cleaning. Sometimes coins leave the mint that way, for example as early strikes that are more reflective (proof-like) than lustrous.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
@crazyhounddog said:
Personally I can not understand how a coin that's over a hundred years old could possibly still be white. Just like antique dealers and collectors will tell you that if it does not have some sort of undisturbed patina it been ruined. Same with coins. There's no freaking way that a coin from the 1800's are still blast white without some sort of help.
To each their own. Do whatever floats your boat.
It's possible when the coins are stored in rolls or bags. It's the large surface area of the silver compared to the very limited amount of sulfur dioxide that can leech into the storage device.
This is the way silver boxes work for sterling flatware. The cloth is saturated with tiny particles of silver to oxidize enough gas that it doesn't tarnish the sterling.
IMO the only way to truly determine how damaged the surface of a coin is would be some measurement, certainly subjective, of how lustrous the coin is.
I suppose the word "Subjective" is the key here. You can rate the brilliance of a coin with the exact same light with a light meter. But this well not tell you if the coin has been dipped or treated in some sort of way to change the surfaces of the coin.
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@Sonorandesertrat said:
"IMO the only way to truly determine how damaged the surface of a coin is would be some measurement, certainly subjective, of how lustrous the coin is."
Lack of luster does not always indicate that the surface of a coin was damaged by prior cleaning. Sometimes coins leave the mint that way, for example as early strikes that are more reflective (proof-like) than lustrous.
They would still have microscopic flow lines and would still exhibit luster. I actually have a good example of an early blast white coin with excellent luster although it has a different look than more recently produced coins. Sadly I have to sell this one too.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
1) Apparently there are a lot of people that can't tell the difference between AT and NT. If they could, I would argue there would be no debate. Physics/chemistry hasn't changed since before 1995. The characteristics of natural toning that make a coin "beautiful" or "ugly" are very unique to each situation and environment. So, although it's true that ALL coins oxidize overtime, the characteristics of that toning leave very few that look "beautiful".
2) IF physics/chemistry has not changed then one could presume that over time that there should be a steady rate of new toned coins being created by nature. So why would the OP and others claim that there are more now (now being the various years of this thread) than before? Perspective.
Before the internet your perspective may not have lined up with reality. Your geographic and demographic situation gives you a different perspective than someone in a different geographic and demographic situation. The dealers/collectors you knew, worked with, traded with, visited may have never touched a toned coin so you never saw one BUT I could just as easily have known, worked with, traded with, and visited dealers/collectors who ONLY worked with toned coins. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it isn't (or can't be) there. With the proliferation of the internet and all the conveniences that the hobby has gained through the internet you can now see the reality of the entire market much clearer than before.
Also, in a similar vein as others have already mentioned, the market interest changes over time as well. It can be equally said that just because there was less interest in toned coins a few decades ago (compared to today) does not mean that less toned coins existed. The market in that situation creates the different perspective.
@BryceM said:
I don't think anyone can dispute that there were lots of pretty Morgans around after the mint releases. There are books from the era that show plenty of them. The question is how many of the now extant coins had "help." I have my opinions, but no proof. Of all collectors, silver dollar people are an odd bunch. They tend to prefer blast white or brilliant rainbows. Everything in between is no good.
Wouldn't they have to be pretty rare to justify being in a vintage book? I haven't seen the pictures you are talking about however if these coins look like the THOUSANDS you can see at any coin show, why exactly would anyone buy a book about them?
The book that comes to mind is Miller's book on Morgan & Peace dollars. It wasn't written specifically about toners. There's lots of photos. Most are of white coins. Many are toned, etc..... IIRC, there's really nothing in the text to indicate that colored Morgans were particularly scarce. Some of the toning is more muted than what we see today but coin photography at that time wasn't that good either.
For the record, I do think many coins today have had help, but not all.
@Thunderproof said:
I see 2 issues throughout this thread:
1) Apparently there are a lot of people that can't tell the difference between AT and NT.
No one can tell the difference between AT and NT 100% of the time and I would even risk saying no one can do it 50% of the time. Toning is nothing more than oxidation of the silver metal by sulfur dioxide. The perpetrator is never going to admit it's AT and once it's accepted into the market as NT, it magically becomes NT forever. There's never any accountability for being wrong because there's never any way to prove the grader is wrong. Dealers are certainly never going to admit they were wrong because they risk their entire inventory. Collectors are never going to admit they were wrong because they paid a lot of money for certain coins and probably paid a premium.
I remember once there was a study done on wine tasting. They gathered several masters together to see if they could judge a $10 bottle of red wine from a $200 bottle of red wine. They couldn't do it but that isn't the best part. The best part is one of the bottles of red wine was white wine dyed with food coloring and no one caught it. The toned coin market is exactly like this. An expert is never wrong if there's no objective measurement of success or failure and no one wants a coin previously determined to be NT to be revealed as AT. Therefore it never happens.
2) IF physics/chemistry has not changed then one could presume that over time that there should be a steady rate of new toned coins being created by nature. So why would the OP and others claim that there are more now (now being the various years of this thread) than before? Perspective.
The reason this isn't the case is because almost every high quality coin that has been marketed in the last 20 years has been sitting in a slab through the absolute necessity of the market. These holders inhibit the introduction of oxidizing gas on to the surface of the coin. Furthermore these coins are also stored with many other silver coins which are usually stored inside a closed environment so it would be nearly impossible for any significant toning to occur.
My experience has confirmed this. I've held a large number of brilliant coins (that's all I bought throughout the 90s) and not one of them has toned in 20 years. 0%.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
Granted, I'm old. But my memory is still quite clear. I remember being at shows in the late 80s and viewing multiple just opened bags of Morgans that contained numerous vividly toned coins. In particular, I remember one bag that had dozens of vivid red to black toned coins that may have been unique. I've also looked at every 1948-58 mint set I could and every Wayte Raymond or other original holdered set at every show I've attended since the 1980s. So what is my point? First, most people commenting about toned coins have very little experience with them and virtually no first hand experience popping them out of original holders or envelopes. Second, those who say "you can't regularly tell the difference between AT and NT," probably can't. BUT, just because they can't, does not mean experts cannot tell the difference. I am very very comfortable buying toned coins raw because I've seen a bazillion of them, stemming from multiple sources over five decades. I don't like toned coins, I'm "addicted" to them.
"You keep your 1804 dollar and 1822 half eagle -- give me rainbow roosies in MS68." rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
I used to buy those old mint sets as often as I could find them and I know what original toning looks like. The problem isn't that original toning doesn't exhibit a certain look, it certainly does. The problem is this look is far too easy to apply to a coin that never had it in the first place.
For tabbed-toned commemoratives, you can do it in 5 minutes and it will fool everyone all of the time. I don't have much experience with Morgans but I don't see how it would be that difficult. There are a million variables both in nature and the lab and blast white Morgans are cheap. A coin doctor can practice forever until he gets it right with very little risk so why wouldn't these coins be around?
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
No one can tell the difference between AT and NT 100% of the time and I would even risk saying no one can do it 50% of the time. Toning is nothing more than oxidation of the silver metal by sulfur dioxide. The perpetrator is never going to admit it's AT and once it's accepted into the market as NT, it magically becomes NT forever. There's never any accountability for being wrong because there's never any way to prove the grader is wrong. Dealers are certainly never going to admit they were wrong because they risk their entire inventory. Collectors are never going to admit they were wrong because they paid a lot of money for certain coins and probably paid a premium.
You just proved point #1. You may not be able to identify NT vs AT but that does not mean that I can't. NT vs AT is not hard to identify most of the time. Of course there will be exceptions but they are far far fewer than the broad strokes you are painting.
I remember once there was a study done on wine tasting. They gathered several masters together to see if they could judge a $10 bottle of red wine from a $200 bottle of red wine. They couldn't do it but that isn't the best part. The best part is one of the bottles of red wine was white wine dyed with food coloring and no one caught it. The toned coin market is exactly like this. An expert is never wrong if there's no objective measurement of success or failure and no one wants a coin previously determined to be NT to be revealed as AT. Therefore it never happens.
I don't like wine but I can (and have been able to) 100% tell the difference between a $10 bottle and $200 bottle. It may not be easy to articulate the difference elegantly but if you spend any reasonable amount of time around something you learn the characteristics and can spot it. The question doesn't become interesting until you ask the difference between a $150 bottle and a $200 bottle.
My experience has confirmed this. I've held a large number of brilliant coins (that's all I bought throughout the 90s) and not one of them has toned in 20 years. 0%.
You just proved point #2. YOUR EXPERIENCE is different than MY EXPERIENCE. The way YOU store coins does not necessitate that I store coins the same way! You didn't see all the coins on the market in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. Simply go to collectors.com and you can see nearly all the coins on the market right now. You are making generalizations based on personal experience.
Your experiences are 100% real and valid but that doesn't mean the overall reality is that way. I own 50 different stocks and all 50 of them go down 10 days in a row DOES NOT mean that every stock in the entire stock market went down 10 days in a row. There are many factors in play that make generalizations very hard to assert.
For tabbed-toned commemoratives, you can do it in 5 minutes and it will fool everyone all of the time. I don't have much experience with Morgans but I don't see how it would be that difficult. There are a million variables both in nature and the lab and blast white Morgans are cheap. A coin doctor can practice forever until he gets it right with very little risk so why wouldn't these coins be around?
If you are not doing the exact same thing as nature it will never look exactly the same. If you can use nature to do EXACTLY the same thing that happens spontaneously then is it somehow not natural anymore?
My specific interest in this thread though is not so much HOW it is done but rather HOW COMMONLY it is done in a way that fools even the experts. I'm convinced that it is significantly smaller than you are making it seem.
With that said I agree 100% that it does happen and it progressively becomes more of a concern as it becomes more commonplace I just think the concern right now is still very tiny.
@rainbowroosie said:
Granted, I'm old. But my memory is still quite clear. I remember being at shows in the late 80s and viewing multiple just opened bags of Morgans that contained numerous vividly toned coins. In particular, I remember one bag that had dozens of vivid red to black toned coins that may have been unique. I've also looked at every 1948-58 mint set I could and every Wayte Raymond or other original holdered set at every show I've attended since the 1980s. So what is my point? First, most people commenting about toned coins have very little experience with them and virtually no first hand experience popping them out of original holders or envelopes. Second, those who say "you can't regularly tell the difference between AT and NT," probably can't. BUT, just because they can't, does not mean experts cannot tell the difference. I am very very comfortable buying toned coins raw because I've seen a bazillion of them, stemming from multiple sources over five decades. I don't like toned coins, I'm "addicted" to them.
Agreed... While I dont have RR's experience I do have about 20 years of collecting non-Morgan toners, specializing in toned Peace $. If you havent hunted raw toners and gotten them graded by PCGS or NGC you are doing yourself a disservice. I think that is an integral part of the learning process of being able to differentiate between NT and AT. (toning imparted by original holders/envelopes/albums ect I consider to be NT).
I think sometimes collectors forget that as we speak, new toners are being created by nature. Recently Ive hand picked toned Ikes and SBAs out of albums and Capital plastic holders. 20 years ago, those coins didnt exist. Sure there are new toners of all types being created by the "doctors" but few are able to fool PCGS and NGC. Does it happen, sure, is it a crisis - no.
And if you're worried about it, find nicely toned raw coins cheap and get them graded... no doctor is going to sell you a toned proof Jeff for $5 that once slabbed is $100-$200 coin.
You just proved point #1. You may not be able to identify NT vs AT but that does not mean that I can't. NT vs AT is not hard to identify most of the time. Of course there will be exceptions but they are far far fewer than the broad strokes you are painting.
Well I would dispute I proved point #1, in fact I'm pretty sure I proved the opposite, however like I said there's no way to prove what you're saying is true. Furthermore, and this is the really amazing thing, **there's no possible way to prove it to yourself either. ** Unless you pulled the coin out of an original holder with a good pedigree, you don't know the coin's history. Any coin you buy from someone else may or may not be AT. You'll never know. You'll never be able to confirm your ability.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
If you are not doing the exact same thing as nature it will never look exactly the same. If you can use nature to do EXACTLY the same thing that happens spontaneously then is it somehow not natural anymore?
It's really not that complicated. What your calling nature is just the oxidation of silver metal by sulfur dioxide. The pretty colors and rainbow hues on a coin's surface is caused by a gradient of oxidation which will cause some zones to reflect certain colors more strongly than others.
At the end of the day (or century) it's still just silver metal turned into a silver salt through the process of oxidation and everything else is just degree and design.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
This coin is 100% natural. It came directly from the mint in a 10-pack of anniverary sets in 2006. 29 coins from these sets are brilliant blast white. This one coin is brilliant purple. Why? Who knows but it's mint-issued original toning.
What do you think the odds are that PCGS would slab this coin? 5%?
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
With all the banned members this thread reads like a roster of Riker's Island CU Inmates.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I've heard lots of wannabe 'chemists' talk about how they can make a monster Morgan toner within their 'lab'. Not the crazy ASE or blue cent nonsense, I'm talking about ones that would match the looks of the top coins in the old Sunnywood collection. I have yet to see any examples that convince me that they are successful at duplicating it and no one can seem to post pictures of any either. As for the other denominations, there are some deceptive tones out there that can fool quite a few people (including the grading services), that can be a minefield at times.
Comments
Not to say markets aren't made, but coin dealers and collectors need to get it in their heads that not all collectors are Lemmings, and prone to hypnosis.
I am alarmed at how many AT coins I am seeing these days. More alarming is the amount of folks buying them.
uh, JBN, haven't you been reading the thread at all?? in many instances that "associated time" is less than a minute.
<< <i>I am alarmed at how many AT coins I am seeing these days. More alarming is the amount of folks buying them. >>
It's really out of hand but the guy's that like this AT stuff really believe it to be NT and their is no way to change their opinion.
<< <i>The funny thing is most of the self proclaimed experts on toning were not even collecting coins when this thread was started let alone a deacde ago. One thing I can say for certain is there is at least 10X the amount of Morgan bag toners out there now compared to when this thread was started in 2003. Think about that a little bit............. >>
It is very interesting to think about and this is also mentioned in the OP. There are certainly high premiums for toned Morgans. Shane had a good post in the nuclear thead where he mentions morgans:
<< <i>I think the number of players paying $2000 to $10000 for common date toned morgans is still a small fraction of the overall collecting pool.....but I see them at the greatest financial risk >>
<< <i>I like the toners because of their eye appeal and the associated time required to attain the toning.
uh, JBN, haven't you been reading the thread at all?? in many instances that "associated time" is less than a minute. >>
Yes, it was an interesting thread. As I mentioned.
To respond specifically to your point, I would submit that the coins that you cite (toned in less than a minute) would possess obvious enough properties such that the expertise @ PCGS, the knowledge/experience of a reputable coin dealer, or those @ CAC for that matter, would identify the coin as AT. Even with my very limited experience and my limited expertise (in part garnered from pix/examples in the coin grading book by PCGS) allows me to identify coins that are glaringly artificially toned. I fully admit that I could not detect the better AT coins. That is why I trust in the aforementioned 'defense-in-depth' to ensure - to the extent practicable - that my toners are original, unmolested examples.
Thanks for the input, keets.
<< <i>Everyone is entitled to an opinion and you're no exception. One of the nice things about this hobby is that there's room for everyone to enjoy whatever the heck flips their switch. I think one thing that goes unsaid in threads like this is that sometimes newbie collectors, and even some seasoned collectors fall for the hype of unscrupulous dealers who want to dump whatever the flavor of the day coin is. If you're serious about coin collecting, you will read, you will research, you will see as many coins as possible, you will seek out those collectors and dealers who specialize in your particular area of interest and you will soak up every bit of education and information about a given coin, or series.
For someone to compare brown ugly toned coins with fantastically toned Morgans, commems, or any other coin that has attained natural toning merely shows a bias. Toning, in it's purest form, enhances the look of a coin and gives it character. That's my own opinion. When you study the patterns and intricacies of toning, you come to appreciate just how delicate a balance you have to have to get a monster toned coin. That being said, I agree with you that when the SCUM OF THE EARTH DOCTORS came into the scene, well - at least came out from hiding, the market for these coins suffered and continues to suffer greatly.
Bottom line, there's ample opportunity for both lovers of white coins and lovers of toned coins to co-exist. In my mind the whole thing boils down to the education factor. If you buy schlock coins with bad toning thinking they're monsters - shame on you. Go back to reading and studying. However, if you see something extraordinary, something that's truly unique because it's made by the natural interaction of silver with the elments, it can be a sight to behold.
With hopefully GSAGUY's permission - give me something like this, and I'll chose it over it's white counterpart any day.
Frank
I'm with ya all the way, buddy!! Very well said....Best regards.....Joe
Rainbow toning is just that, with some coins exhibiting vivid primary colors or complex blends that have formed over time, undisturbed - in just the right conditions, in either monochromatic hues or banded rings or waves that don't hinder underlying luster. If a coin is anything close to this and grades near gem or better than you have a keeper. The bland (to me) all white coins are almost always dipped, and to me that is when the original skin or patina is removed forever. How can this be good? and how can a silver dollar sit around since 1880 and not begin to tone in some way? When I pondered these questions myself I soon began to stay away from white coins, it just made sense to me. With all the pressure from high silver prices and the desire to melt them, and coins being ruined by cheesy coin doctors, and those that dip coins "sensibly", high-end toned coins will just continue to go up and up as the pool is shrinking folks!
I got into toned coins vicariously through my Father in the early to mid 1970's when I was just a kid, and started collecting them myself around 1980. As a fine artist, color was flat-out more appealing to me, but I realize everyone has their own preferences. My Dad and I would go to some local dealers looking for Morgan dollars, and we found one that did not dip them, though we did not even know that was common-place at the time. The going rate for common date Gem BU Morgans then was about $18.00-$20.00, but I remember several colorful PL/DMPL coins he purchased for around $28.50, of course these were natural. Anyone could see the quality was there, and it just seemed to make sense to give a few dollars more for a much prettier coin.
Toners were definitely available before 1995, so I tend to disagree with the original poster's comment. Some of you may remember or know about something that a prominent and knowledgeable dealer told me awhile back; that one of the large auction houses in the mid 1980's offered a huge catalog of stunning toned coins, and that they had actually hired a degreed chemist who worked for months getting every "prepped" for the sale, based in California I believe. I wonder if there was only one such sale. The toned coin market was already taking off before TPG companies had formed in '86.
Someone in this thread mentioned that there will always be toned coins to dip, and white coins to artificially tone, but one needs to consider that there was only one block of time where the bulk of the truly stunning color coins were born of their natural surroundings. That time has come and gone, where air from the late industrial revolution was swirling about, lead paint prevailed, wood fires and steam plants were the norm, and government regulations were few. Mint-fresh sewn shut canvas bags sat around in bank vaults (some first in and last out of those vaults) for decades - creating the kind of coins that everyone is talking about. Those cream of the crop less-than-one-percent of all toned specimens are the wonder coins that everyone says they have but don't and every coin doc strives to build but can't. These coins exist but are elusive, and are driving the whole thing. If someone wants a real deal high-end coin, they are going to have to paw through hundreds of original un-messed with raw coins and submit 'em themselves to the grading companies hoping they don't get shot down, or they can negotiate a price for a piece from a reputable dealer. The downside to all this dishonesty is that this part of the hobby has been hurt, and continues to be at the hands of these shady people.
I for one find it a rewarding challenge to be in the search, but there are setbacks with buying online and there are inconsistencies with TPG companies' opinion on authenticity. I just received the largest batch I have ever submitted at one time (75 coins) last week, and I wonder if my luck would have been better had I sent in smaller batches. Granted, they actually were in different tiers, some modern and some pre 1955, and they were split up among both services. I did receive my first ever MS67 graded coins though, 3 in all from both services, but got some body bags too. It has also been my experience that MS66 is some kind of threshold that is difficult to cross, especially when submitting toners. The one common denominator this time though with the 67's was luster, it must be intense or they won't grade that high. Some of the disappointments came from a complete set of Jeffersons ('38 to '64) in a 1960's era Capital plastics holder I bought that I know was built along time ago and had sat completed for perhaps as long as 40 years. The toning patterns were all very similar, and yet 2 of about 18 coins I sent in were details graded as AT. Out of immense curiosity I will send these to the other service and see what sticks. This of course is another subject entirely.
I have been passionate about trying to inform those just getting into the realm of toned coins of the pitfalls that are commonplace these days, and the dark side of this otherwise exciting market for many years. I have written a couple of eBay guides about it, literally helping hundreds of novice collectors save thousands of dollars collectively over the last few years. I like to think I've had a direct negative effect on the sales figures of some of these scammers, if you have not seen it, you might find it interesting (see link below). I try to answer all questions, but sometimes fail as I work a lot of hours. I will soon be writing some articles on this subject for a popular ezine. Stay tuned.
rainbowtoned on Instagram
https://instagram.com/rainbowtoned/
rainbowtoned on Instagram
https://instagram.com/rainbowtoned/
<< <i>The fact remains, tarnish is environmental damage [...] >>
RickO, please hear this. Corrosion is "environmental damage." Something that can be easily stripped off the coin by a dip for just one second in something as readily-available as Tarn-X, well, for whatever that is, it isn't "environmental damage."
I would pretty much agree....nowadays, most mints and entities that "holder" coins are now aware of what makes them "tarnish" and they try to not facilitate that by holdering coins in inert holders.....which makes me think.......I'll start a new thread....
<< <i>You want the truth? You want the truth???? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!
Okay, here's the truth........
About 6 years ago a funny thing started happening. LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before. A few notable dealers had cases full of them, all sparkling and fresh with nice colors and pretty hues. All certified and sold for nice premiums. These coins didn't exist before about 1995. No, they didn't........they weren't on the market. I KNOW you think I'm full of it, but they were NOT THERE! >>
As I imperfectly channel the Colonel I feel obligated to respond:
Gosh, all those tens of thousands of toners in the Continental Bank hoard (1983'ish) were "done"? Where did Ed Milas find the time? Perhaps he subcontracted to the CCC (Coin Cosmetologist Collective)
Not even close to the truth.
Seek on, pilgrim .........
14 years later, the toner market is strong as ever.
I was following this one recently. It had an estimate of $1500-$2000 and sold for $4,465!
And, if JHF was still passionately collecting these, it might have sold for even more!
Wondercoin
while that medal sold strong I think it is a poor example to help illustrate the strength of the toned coin market. it represents a niche area of the Hobby and is itself a medal sought by collectors who don't typically collect SC$'s.
I see it as an anomaly cubed that might be buried.
As you say, it is collected by some collectors that don't typically collect SCDs. Because of that, it could be a better example than the typical SCD because it is collected by coin collectors in addition to medal collectors. Additionally, just two collectors can make a strong market as we've seen in many series.
And while any one piece can be a anomaly there are many other pieces to list as well. I follow toned SCDs and all the ones I've seen have sold for healthy premiums. I also follow toned Morgans like the recently sold 1883-O I posted in your thread.
I like my silver with a light champagne toning...gives it some character and shows that it's original...and goes well with my Pol Roger.
A great, old thread! Almost as much fun as reading Bear's 'Coinalot.' Andy Lustig's explanation for 3-legged buffalo nickels was a hoot (good image too).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I hate to break this to you but the original point of this thread 14 years ago is that toning doesn't mean it's original at all.
I have personally watched "original" tab toning applied to a blast white commemorative using an old cardboard holder and a few chemicals. There's no way to tell the difference.
Wasn't here in 2003. Read the entire thread. Discussion will be around in another 10 years. I found D. Halls comment to be educational in a historical way.
**_"I remember seeing many, many beautiful rainbow toned Morgans in the 1960s and 1970s...many of them from truly original bags (1000 coins) that showed up at the time. They definitely did exist and they existed in large numbers.
You can read Wayne Miller's silver dollar book and his "thin film interference" explanation for some of the science.
In the late 1970s, I advertised "Gem BU" Morgan dollars for $10 each, but I was getting $25 a coin for outrageous toners.
Gorgeous rainbow toned type coins and commemoratives were also available. What you didn't see was very many toned Peace dollars, Mercury dimes, and Walking Liberty halves (or Buffalo nickels for that matter)...at least that's how I remember it.
And the idea that there is no such thing as a blast white silver coin that hasn't been dipped is just not true. As late as the 1990s I can remeber original rolls of Walkers, Mercuries, and silver Washingtons with blazing white undipped gems filling those totally original bank wrapped rolls. And there were type coin rolls...many blast white...in the 1970s. There were the original rolls of Barber dimes that Ron Gillio had at a Long Beach show in the 1970s. And in about 1974, Fred Malone had an original roll of 1872-S half dimes. I think it was Jack Beymer who had a roll of 1892-S Barber halves. Ah...those were the days.
The point is...beautiful, totally original, outrageously toned rainbow coins have been around for a long time.
hrh"_**
For every colorful lustrous coin that sells for multiples of bid, there are a thousand oxidized coins that can't even make the minimum or the reserve. You're talking about the exceptions, not the rule.
Yup. Collect what you like but everyone should at least consider the big picture. The most salient point of the OP is the thought that toning can be manufactured but not luster. From a preservation & conservation point of view, anything that accelerates or promotes degradation of the original surfaces should be shunned. This includes basically all AT techniques and dipping in the majority of cases.
Market forces are powerful and unfortunately people tend to be VERY susceptible to marketing efforts.
I don't want to fight with Mr. Hall but this simply wasn't true. Wandering around a coin show in 1976 was an entirely different experience than in the 1990s or the 2000s. Specifically talking about rainbow toned Morgans, while they did indeed enjoy a premium, they were as rare as hen's teeth.
I haven't been to a show recently but contrast that with a thousand slabbed Morgans in a dealer's case that all have approximately the same rainbow toning and you can see the problem. The supply should have shrunk as these coins were locked up in long term collections or dipped or destroyed in some other way. They shouldn't be multiplying like rabbits.
>
I agree that blast white silver coins that haven't been dipped are pretty common in some series. I have an original capped-toned roll of Washington Carver commemoratives that are mostly blast white and untoned.
That being said, in the 1960s nearly every single coin put in a dealer case was dipped. I've heard this repeatedly, over and over again, from old time collectors and dealers who are probably long deceased now. I've heard it so many times that I can't possibly doubt it was true. My conclusion has always been that the majority of collectible coins that existed in dealer inventory or collector's hands from the 60s or prior had the toning removed. Not all, but most.
I don't think anyone can dispute that there were lots of pretty Morgans around after the mint releases. There are books from the era that show plenty of them. The question is how many of the now extant coins had "help." I have my opinions, but no proof. Of all collectors, silver dollar people are an odd bunch. They tend to prefer blast white or brilliant rainbows. Everything in between is no good.
The good old days on the PCGS Board
What we have here is a failure to produce any meaningful dialogue. Some coins are White some coins are Toned. Of the white coins; some are that way because they are dipped and others because they were originally that way, and on the Toned side; some are that way because the toning was actively induced, while other naturally reacted to the environment they were stored in.
Moral of the Story. Education is the key and we should strive for coins that are ORIGINAL. That is ORIGINAL White or ORIGINAL Toned depending on what "floats your boat." Liking one does not make the other bad. In fact, any well put together collection would have both, not by design, but because of qaulity choices. The rest is just Silly, Silly Silly.
\
Wouldn't they have to be pretty rare to justify being in a vintage book? I haven't seen the pictures you are talking about however if these coins look like the THOUSANDS you can see at any coin show, why exactly would anyone buy a book about them?
I wish I still had the group of brand new bronze Lincolns that I did various things to.
Didn't image coins back then.
I put them in sealed coffee cans and labeled the cans.
Some were naked, some were in manila envelopes, some in flips, some in 2x2s, and some in combination with some chunks of sulfurated potash.
NONE in slabs. Although I would have liked to try.
of all the various methods of storage, the mylar 2x2 stapled 4 times came out the best. (least affected)
However, NOW maybe some of the others would be THE coins to have.
Personally I can not understand how a coin that's over a hundred years old could possibly still be white. Just like antique dealers and collectors will tell you that if it does not have some sort of undisturbed patina it been ruined. Same with coins. There's no freaking way that a coin from the 1800's are still blast white without some sort of help.
To each their own. Do whatever floats your boat.
It's possible when the coins are stored in rolls or bags. It's the large surface area of the silver compared to the very limited amount of sulfur dioxide that can leech into the storage device.
This is the way silver boxes work for sterling flatware. The cloth is saturated with tiny particles of silver to oxidize enough gas that it doesn't tarnish the sterling.
IMO the only way to truly determine how damaged the surface of a coin is would be some measurement, certainly subjective, of how lustrous the coin is.
When I went to the West Point Depository (before it became a Mint)
to examine the CC dollars for the GSA sale, (for errors), they were
putting the toned coins in the "Uncirculated" holders, because they
thought that toned coins wouldn't be accepted by dealers at the
price they were selling the 'normal' white coins for.......
"IMO the only way to truly determine how damaged the surface of a coin is would be some measurement, certainly subjective, of how lustrous the coin is."
Lack of luster does not always indicate that the surface of a coin was damaged by prior cleaning. Sometimes coins leave the mint that way, for example as early strikes that are more reflective (proof-like) than lustrous.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I suppose the word "Subjective" is the key here. You can rate the brilliance of a coin with the exact same light with a light meter. But this well not tell you if the coin has been dipped or treated in some sort of way to change the surfaces of the coin.
They would still have microscopic flow lines and would still exhibit luster. I actually have a good example of an early blast white coin with excellent luster although it has a different look than more recently produced coins. Sadly I have to sell this one too.
I see 2 issues throughout this thread:
1) Apparently there are a lot of people that can't tell the difference between AT and NT. If they could, I would argue there would be no debate. Physics/chemistry hasn't changed since before 1995. The characteristics of natural toning that make a coin "beautiful" or "ugly" are very unique to each situation and environment. So, although it's true that ALL coins oxidize overtime, the characteristics of that toning leave very few that look "beautiful".
2) IF physics/chemistry has not changed then one could presume that over time that there should be a steady rate of new toned coins being created by nature. So why would the OP and others claim that there are more now (now being the various years of this thread) than before? Perspective.
Before the internet your perspective may not have lined up with reality. Your geographic and demographic situation gives you a different perspective than someone in a different geographic and demographic situation. The dealers/collectors you knew, worked with, traded with, visited may have never touched a toned coin so you never saw one BUT I could just as easily have known, worked with, traded with, and visited dealers/collectors who ONLY worked with toned coins. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it isn't (or can't be) there. With the proliferation of the internet and all the conveniences that the hobby has gained through the internet you can now see the reality of the entire market much clearer than before.
Also, in a similar vein as others have already mentioned, the market interest changes over time as well. It can be equally said that just because there was less interest in toned coins a few decades ago (compared to today) does not mean that less toned coins existed. The market in that situation creates the different perspective.
The book that comes to mind is Miller's book on Morgan & Peace dollars. It wasn't written specifically about toners. There's lots of photos. Most are of white coins. Many are toned, etc..... IIRC, there's really nothing in the text to indicate that colored Morgans were particularly scarce. Some of the toning is more muted than what we see today but coin photography at that time wasn't that good either.
For the record, I do think many coins today have had help, but not all.
No one can tell the difference between AT and NT 100% of the time and I would even risk saying no one can do it 50% of the time. Toning is nothing more than oxidation of the silver metal by sulfur dioxide. The perpetrator is never going to admit it's AT and once it's accepted into the market as NT, it magically becomes NT forever. There's never any accountability for being wrong because there's never any way to prove the grader is wrong. Dealers are certainly never going to admit they were wrong because they risk their entire inventory. Collectors are never going to admit they were wrong because they paid a lot of money for certain coins and probably paid a premium.
I remember once there was a study done on wine tasting. They gathered several masters together to see if they could judge a $10 bottle of red wine from a $200 bottle of red wine. They couldn't do it but that isn't the best part. The best part is one of the bottles of red wine was white wine dyed with food coloring and no one caught it. The toned coin market is exactly like this. An expert is never wrong if there's no objective measurement of success or failure and no one wants a coin previously determined to be NT to be revealed as AT. Therefore it never happens.
The reason this isn't the case is because almost every high quality coin that has been marketed in the last 20 years has been sitting in a slab through the absolute necessity of the market. These holders inhibit the introduction of oxidizing gas on to the surface of the coin. Furthermore these coins are also stored with many other silver coins which are usually stored inside a closed environment so it would be nearly impossible for any significant toning to occur.
My experience has confirmed this. I've held a large number of brilliant coins (that's all I bought throughout the 90s) and not one of them has toned in 20 years. 0%.
Granted, I'm old. But my memory is still quite clear. I remember being at shows in the late 80s and viewing multiple just opened bags of Morgans that contained numerous vividly toned coins. In particular, I remember one bag that had dozens of vivid red to black toned coins that may have been unique. I've also looked at every 1948-58 mint set I could and every Wayte Raymond or other original holdered set at every show I've attended since the 1980s. So what is my point? First, most people commenting about toned coins have very little experience with them and virtually no first hand experience popping them out of original holders or envelopes. Second, those who say "you can't regularly tell the difference between AT and NT," probably can't. BUT, just because they can't, does not mean experts cannot tell the difference. I am very very comfortable buying toned coins raw because I've seen a bazillion of them, stemming from multiple sources over five decades. I don't like toned coins, I'm "addicted" to them.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
I used to buy those old mint sets as often as I could find them and I know what original toning looks like. The problem isn't that original toning doesn't exhibit a certain look, it certainly does. The problem is this look is far too easy to apply to a coin that never had it in the first place.
For tabbed-toned commemoratives, you can do it in 5 minutes and it will fool everyone all of the time. I don't have much experience with Morgans but I don't see how it would be that difficult. There are a million variables both in nature and the lab and blast white Morgans are cheap. A coin doctor can practice forever until he gets it right with very little risk so why wouldn't these coins be around?
You just proved point #1. You may not be able to identify NT vs AT but that does not mean that I can't. NT vs AT is not hard to identify most of the time. Of course there will be exceptions but they are far far fewer than the broad strokes you are painting.
I don't like wine but I can (and have been able to) 100% tell the difference between a $10 bottle and $200 bottle. It may not be easy to articulate the difference elegantly but if you spend any reasonable amount of time around something you learn the characteristics and can spot it. The question doesn't become interesting until you ask the difference between a $150 bottle and a $200 bottle.
$10 bottle - http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/8gAAAOSwARZXkiIF/s-l500.jpg
$200 bottle - http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/nyIAAOSwux5YLhUG/s-l1600.jpg
You just proved point #2. YOUR EXPERIENCE is different than MY EXPERIENCE. The way YOU store coins does not necessitate that I store coins the same way! You didn't see all the coins on the market in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. Simply go to collectors.com and you can see nearly all the coins on the market right now. You are making generalizations based on personal experience.
Your experiences are 100% real and valid but that doesn't mean the overall reality is that way. I own 50 different stocks and all 50 of them go down 10 days in a row DOES NOT mean that every stock in the entire stock market went down 10 days in a row. There are many factors in play that make generalizations very hard to assert.
If you are not doing the exact same thing as nature it will never look exactly the same. If you can use nature to do EXACTLY the same thing that happens spontaneously then is it somehow not natural anymore?
My specific interest in this thread though is not so much HOW it is done but rather HOW COMMONLY it is done in a way that fools even the experts. I'm convinced that it is significantly smaller than you are making it seem.
With that said I agree 100% that it does happen and it progressively becomes more of a concern as it becomes more commonplace I just think the concern right now is still very tiny.
Agreed... While I dont have RR's experience I do have about 20 years of collecting non-Morgan toners, specializing in toned Peace $. If you havent hunted raw toners and gotten them graded by PCGS or NGC you are doing yourself a disservice. I think that is an integral part of the learning process of being able to differentiate between NT and AT. (toning imparted by original holders/envelopes/albums ect I consider to be NT).
I think sometimes collectors forget that as we speak, new toners are being created by nature. Recently Ive hand picked toned Ikes and SBAs out of albums and Capital plastic holders. 20 years ago, those coins didnt exist. Sure there are new toners of all types being created by the "doctors" but few are able to fool PCGS and NGC. Does it happen, sure, is it a crisis - no.
And if you're worried about it, find nicely toned raw coins cheap and get them graded... no doctor is going to sell you a toned proof Jeff for $5 that once slabbed is $100-$200 coin.
>
Well I would dispute I proved point #1, in fact I'm pretty sure I proved the opposite, however like I said there's no way to prove what you're saying is true. Furthermore, and this is the really amazing thing, **there's no possible way to prove it to yourself either. ** Unless you pulled the coin out of an original holder with a good pedigree, you don't know the coin's history. Any coin you buy from someone else may or may not be AT. You'll never know. You'll never be able to confirm your ability.
It's really not that complicated. What your calling nature is just the oxidation of silver metal by sulfur dioxide. The pretty colors and rainbow hues on a coin's surface is caused by a gradient of oxidation which will cause some zones to reflect certain colors more strongly than others.
At the end of the day (or century) it's still just silver metal turned into a silver salt through the process of oxidation and everything else is just degree and design.
This coin is 100% natural. It came directly from the mint in a 10-pack of anniverary sets in 2006. 29 coins from these sets are brilliant blast white. This one coin is brilliant purple. Why? Who knows but it's mint-issued original toning.
What do you think the odds are that PCGS would slab this coin? 5%?
With all the banned members this thread reads like a roster of Riker's Island CU Inmates.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I've heard lots of wannabe 'chemists' talk about how they can make a monster Morgan toner within their 'lab'. Not the crazy ASE or blue cent nonsense, I'm talking about ones that would match the looks of the top coins in the old Sunnywood collection. I have yet to see any examples that convince me that they are successful at duplicating it and no one can seem to post pictures of any either. As for the other denominations, there are some deceptive tones out there that can fool quite a few people (including the grading services), that can be a minefield at times.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets