@perkdog said:
You know Tom Brady is smiling over this utter disaster New England has become lol
How about Bill getting the boot this offseason and we end up with Brady as GM, Mayo as HC & McDaniels as OC?
Tom & josh get to go find us a new QB while rebuilding the offense while Mayo convinces our defensive free agents to re-sign here.
That would be awesome
Honestly I'd prefer you as the HC over Belichick right now
Unless Brady takes some major role in the Pats organization, I doubt that he'll be in Foxboro often. I kid about the GM role but that would mean he moves back to New England. IIRC,his ex and the kids live right across the street from him, he may not want to leave that situation.
@perkdog said:
You know Tom Brady is smiling over this utter disaster New England has become lol
How about Bill getting the boot this offseason and we end up with Brady as GM, Mayo as HC & McDaniels as OC?
Tom & josh get to go find us a new QB while rebuilding the offense while Mayo convinces our defensive free agents to re-sign here.
That would be awesome
Honestly I'd prefer you as the HC over Belichick right now
Its going to be interesting how this all plays out. If that report was true that said BB had multiple years left on his deal at,I'm assuming, 20+M/season I just don't see Kraft footing that bill while paying some other HC. We'll see.
Its a shame that Belichick let things get to this point and how he'll be perceived by Pats fans going forward. Its really all of his own fault. He let Tom go,he made all of those horrible draft picks and free agent signings that has led to this point,he decided to just let two of his former coordinators try running the offense for the first time.
Hopefully when Bobby K stops running around with his rap buddies he'll finally make the right decision on his teams future.
@perkdog said:
You know Tom Brady is smiling over this utter disaster New England has become lol
How about Bill getting the boot this offseason and we end up with Brady as GM, Mayo as HC & McDaniels as OC?
Tom & josh get to go find us a new QB while rebuilding the offense while Mayo convinces our defensive free agents to re-sign here.
That would be awesome
Honestly I'd prefer you as the HC over Belichick right now
Its going to be interesting how this all plays out. If that report was true that said BB had multiple years left on his deal at,I'm assuming, 20+M/season I just don't see Kraft footing that bill while paying some other HC. We'll see.
Its a shame that Belichick let things get to this point and how he'll be perceived by Pats fans going forward. Its really all of his own fault. He let Tom go,he made all of those horrible draft picks and free agent signings that has led to this point,he decided to just let two of his former coordinators try running the offense for the first time.
Hopefully when Bobby K stops running around with his rap buddies he'll finally make the right decision on his teams future.
It is sad to see but I really have no sympathy for Belichick. The guy has destroyed many a young player for not buying into that fraudulent "Patriot Way" crap
@perkdog said:
You know Tom Brady is smiling over this utter disaster New England has become lol
How about Bill getting the boot this offseason and we end up with Brady as GM, Mayo as HC & McDaniels as OC?
Tom & josh get to go find us a new QB while rebuilding the offense while Mayo convinces our defensive free agents to re-sign here.
That would be awesome
Honestly I'd prefer you as the HC over Belichick right now
Its going to be interesting how this all plays out. If that report was true that said BB had multiple years left on his deal at,I'm assuming, 20+M/season I just don't see Kraft footing that bill while paying some other HC. We'll see.
Its a shame that Belichick let things get to this point and how he'll be perceived by Pats fans going forward. Its really all of his own fault. He let Tom go,he made all of those horrible draft picks and free agent signings that has led to this point,he decided to just let two of his former coordinators try running the offense for the first time.
Hopefully when Bobby K stops running around with his rap buddies he'll finally make the right decision on his teams future.
It is sad to see but I really have no sympathy for Belichick. The guy has destroyed many a young player for not buying into that fraudulent "Patriot Way" crap
The way that i've always looked at The Patriot Way was that that never had anything to do with Bill Belichick. It was players like Tedy Bruschi & Tom Brady who would put the team first then it was passed on through the years with vets like McCourty,Slater & James White.
Sure Belichick had his famous Do Your Job slogan during one of the later SB runs but that came longer after the Humble Pie crew in '07.
I get your point on how Belichick has treated his players over the years but I'll take that all day over the alternative. We've seen Mr Rah-Rah HC who wanted to be everyone's buddy right before Belichick took over in NE and Pete Carroll's way of runnings things never worked, at least not in New England.
@stevek said:
"that has an old over-the-hill head coach (Bill Belichick) who has morphed into a modern day version of an old over-the-hill Tom Landry."
The above is pasted from my opening post in the Eagles thread.
It wasn't any secret that Belichick's coaching skills had degraded. But I didn't think it was nearly this bad.
I'm not sure his coaching has really changed and the game very well may have just passed him at this point. Hes always been terrible with how he treats players its just when you win thats called instilling discipline or people dont care. Obviously that narrative changes when youre losing. To many years of him drafting have caught up with them now that they dont have Brady to bail them out (which they lucked into).
Yea but ya gotta remember Gronk, Edelman, and others he coached up over the years. Randy Moss was a pretty good free agent signing.
There's not much room for error when coaching at the top level. Missing something while analyzing game film, improper game planning, etc, IE a wide assortment of possible mistakes that likely he wouldn't have made when he was younger and more cognizant.
The coming "problem" is he might blow the high draft pick that the Patriots will be getting in the upcoming draft. I think Kraft stays with Belichick at least until the next season. But if Belichick's draft picks are losers, i think Kraft would have to bid farewell to him.
Moss didnt take any particular skill as a coach, just a check book.
Youre giving Bill to much credit saying he coached those gusy up. Gronk was very highly touted coming out of college and was the second TE picked in the draft. He should have been first but Cincinnati did Cincy things and took Gresham from Oklahoma. He really didnt do much with Welker or Eldeman either. Edelman had Brady as his QB his whole career and Welker spent the majority of his career with him as well. Welker wasnt a superstar but he was good in Miami before coming to NE, he was already developed when he got there.
Honestly if he manages to blow a top 5 pick this year I'd be impressed. This is a very offensive draft where even if the top QBs are all gone theres multiple WRs, Bowers, 3-4 tackles etc that would all be worthy of being taken that high. Unless he just intentionally tries to do something super cute you could just throw at a dart board of names and not mess it up. Theres still going to be some first round caliber offensive players in the second round this year
you must not have been watching football back then. Moss absolutely had to be coached/mentored. He was a basket case who literally gave up on the Raiders. He was a clubhouse cancer before he came to NE.
Edelman was a college QB. I would say he took some coaching to become a great NFL slot receiver. Welker was an established NFL receiver, though not close to what he would become in NE.
Moss did not have to be mentored. Hes a HOF WR that was elite when he signed with them. He was a diva like most WRs are and anyone thats ever watched a game knew all you had to do was throw the ball in the air and let him go get it. Hes ones of the greatest WRs of all time that signed with them as a 30 year old.who had been in the league for a decade. He already had 5 years with over 1300 yards, 7 years with over 1000 yards and lead the league in TD receptions 3 times before signing with the Pats.
Edelman had some moments but calling him great is a stretch. He was a very bad QB at Kent State that basically just ran the ball in a conference that is known for high powered offenses
Again, you are only reading stat sheets. you apparently dont know any backstory at all.
Moss quit on his team. He 100% needed mentoring. 100%.
You dont remember, because you dont watch games, but it was the same deal when BB signed Corey Dillon. He was a team cancer who became a great player again under BB.
brady mentored all those guys not bill
why give bill credit for that stuff? the guy is a complete Dbag , who wants a dbag to mentor them?
@stevek said:
"that has an old over-the-hill head coach (Bill Belichick) who has morphed into a modern day version of an old over-the-hill Tom Landry."
The above is pasted from my opening post in the Eagles thread.
It wasn't any secret that Belichick's coaching skills had degraded. But I didn't think it was nearly this bad.
I'm not sure his coaching has really changed and the game very well may have just passed him at this point. Hes always been terrible with how he treats players its just when you win thats called instilling discipline or people dont care. Obviously that narrative changes when youre losing. To many years of him drafting have caught up with them now that they dont have Brady to bail them out (which they lucked into).
Yea but ya gotta remember Gronk, Edelman, and others he coached up over the years. Randy Moss was a pretty good free agent signing.
There's not much room for error when coaching at the top level. Missing something while analyzing game film, improper game planning, etc, IE a wide assortment of possible mistakes that likely he wouldn't have made when he was younger and more cognizant.
The coming "problem" is he might blow the high draft pick that the Patriots will be getting in the upcoming draft. I think Kraft stays with Belichick at least until the next season. But if Belichick's draft picks are losers, i think Kraft would have to bid farewell to him.
Moss didnt take any particular skill as a coach, just a check book.
Youre giving Bill to much credit saying he coached those gusy up. Gronk was very highly touted coming out of college and was the second TE picked in the draft. He should have been first but Cincinnati did Cincy things and took Gresham from Oklahoma. He really didnt do much with Welker or Eldeman either. Edelman had Brady as his QB his whole career and Welker spent the majority of his career with him as well. Welker wasnt a superstar but he was good in Miami before coming to NE, he was already developed when he got there.
Honestly if he manages to blow a top 5 pick this year I'd be impressed. This is a very offensive draft where even if the top QBs are all gone theres multiple WRs, Bowers, 3-4 tackles etc that would all be worthy of being taken that high. Unless he just intentionally tries to do something super cute you could just throw at a dart board of names and not mess it up. Theres still going to be some first round caliber offensive players in the second round this year
you must not have been watching football back then. Moss absolutely had to be coached/mentored. He was a basket case who literally gave up on the Raiders. He was a clubhouse cancer before he came to NE.
Edelman was a college QB. I would say he took some coaching to become a great NFL slot receiver. Welker was an established NFL receiver, though not close to what he would become in NE.
Moss did not have to be mentored. Hes a HOF WR that was elite when he signed with them. He was a diva like most WRs are and anyone thats ever watched a game knew all you had to do was throw the ball in the air and let him go get it. Hes ones of the greatest WRs of all time that signed with them as a 30 year old.who had been in the league for a decade. He already had 5 years with over 1300 yards, 7 years with over 1000 yards and lead the league in TD receptions 3 times before signing with the Pats.
Edelman had some moments but calling him great is a stretch. He was a very bad QB at Kent State that basically just ran the ball in a conference that is known for high powered offenses
Again, you are only reading stat sheets. you apparently dont know any backstory at all.
Moss quit on his team. He 100% needed mentoring. 100%.
You dont remember, because you dont watch games, but it was the same deal when BB signed Corey Dillon. He was a team cancer who became a great player again under BB.
Are you seriously trying to argue that Randy Moss became a great player under Bill and hadnt been for a decade already or that the same wasnt true for Corey Dillion?
you are not listening. That is not at all what i was saying. Both players had become uncoachable and locker room cancers. they were both considered risky signings/trades. the local sports talk up here in NE was at best split about moss/dillon when they were first acquired. there was fear they would be malcontents and destroy the locker room.
BB absolutely shut all of that down and they both were very productive with NE
Dillion signed at the end of his career and had one top year which is normal for RBs. Moss was already one of the greatest WRs of all time. Radio and media can say whatever they want it doesnt make any of it true. My cat could have coached Moss and he would have still been elite as long as the ball was thrown to him. Moss was angry that Oakland was a dumpster fire and didnt have a QB his final year. Dillion was injured his final year in Cnicy and wanted the ball more too. Elite players especially skill players want the ball.
Then if your cat could have coached Moss and he would have been an elite WR, what happened in 2006? Why wasnt he elite then? I will answer. He was a team cancer/malcontent. Same deal with Dillon. why was he so terrible in 2003? did he forget how to see a hole? did he forget how to run? did he slow down only to remember how in 2004 and have his best season?
These guys were brought into a very rigid, tightly controlled situation with the understanding that if they crossed certain boundaries they would be released. The whole coaching staff had control over the situation. they had formed a locker room with strong player/leaders who also would not put up with malcontent garbage.
What happened in 2006 was he missed a couple games, had absolute garbage QBs, and wasnt getting thrown the ball enough. Walter and Brooks combined for 24 interceptions and 7 TDs and less than 3k yards. Good luck putting up numbers with those too. Are we just going to ignore that Moss had over 10k yards before that and being a top 5 WR for 8 years already?
Dillion was hurt in 2003
I really dont know what to say if youre going to credit Bill for Moss who was already one of the best WRs of ALL TIME and Dillion who was an elite RB at the end of his career coming off an injury.
Why cant Bill "coach up" his terrible Oline/Rbs/Wrs/TEs that he has now?
you dont know what you dont know.
here are some quotes from the 2003 bengals:
From Willie Anderson, RT: "They definitely can't bring him back, because he would destroy us next year," Anderson said. "The cancer would take affect."
"I'm taking it personally, That means you don't want to play with me, and you don't want to play with (center) Rich Braham and you don't want to play with the guys that played hurt for you for a lot of years and a lot of yards," Anderson said. "Basically, he was the guy we were playing our tail off for. We didn't have a lot to play for in a lot of those years, but the one thing we could take pride in is that we could help the running back go to the Pro Bowl. That was something we shot for. He knows that we were looking to give him the big games. It hurts me to see him laughing over there. If you want out of here that bad, adios."
"At the beginning of the season, he had a coach (Lewis) that loved him. Loved him," Anderson said. "There were years we had no passing game, and we didn't have a defense and we didn't have the luxury of a lead where we could sit and pound it with him.
"This year we had that," Anderson said. "But he was hurt. I don't know why he's mad. I don't know why he's mad at Mike Brown, (running backs coach) Jim Anderson, the players. If he had been healthy, that would have been him in there. But Rudi had to step in. Nobody hurt you, bro. You got hurt."
Dillon got his feelings hurt that the backup RB was successful during his injury and became a malcontent and clubhouse cancer after he returned from injury.
you really need to learn the context of this stuff.
Have you ever played sports? Do you think its something knew that some teammates might not get along or that people will lash out in comments out of frustration when a player leaves knowing that will make them more popular for doing so?
Dillion had one good year with the Pats was injured his second year and retired after the third.
Not only was Brady there but again, if Bill somehow "coached these players up" when one was already a HOFer and the other was very good at the end of his career, why cant he coach anyone up on offense now
Of course I played sports. most of us here did. not really pertinent to this discussion.
Of course, teammates do not always get along. the point here is that BB created an environment of coaches and players here in NE that would not allow players to become cancers in the clubhouse like they did on other teams. EVERYTHING was controlled. Had you been old enough to watch the games/postgames back then you would have seen for yourself how controlled even the player's post-game pressers were. everyone was in lockstep and toed the line. Or you were cut. That is why malcontents like Moss and Dillon were able to be integrated into the NE system when they were so toxic elsewhere.
The point is that youre trying to say that somehow Bill made players including one of the best WRs of all time. Youre overstating the issues giving him a bunch of credit for things he didnt do.
Why cant they win without Brady?
Why have players been cut and arrested for having guns in an airport, why did they trade for Jackson and cut him for issues, why was Boutte drafted if they wont even dress him?
Theres countless things showing that no Bill did not somehow turn people around as a miracle worker. If they were good enough he tolerated them, if they werent they got got cut to shift the blame from his decisions.
@stevek said:
"that has an old over-the-hill head coach (Bill Belichick) who has morphed into a modern day version of an old over-the-hill Tom Landry."
The above is pasted from my opening post in the Eagles thread.
It wasn't any secret that Belichick's coaching skills had degraded. But I didn't think it was nearly this bad.
I'm not sure his coaching has really changed and the game very well may have just passed him at this point. Hes always been terrible with how he treats players its just when you win thats called instilling discipline or people dont care. Obviously that narrative changes when youre losing. To many years of him drafting have caught up with them now that they dont have Brady to bail them out (which they lucked into).
Yea but ya gotta remember Gronk, Edelman, and others he coached up over the years. Randy Moss was a pretty good free agent signing.
There's not much room for error when coaching at the top level. Missing something while analyzing game film, improper game planning, etc, IE a wide assortment of possible mistakes that likely he wouldn't have made when he was younger and more cognizant.
The coming "problem" is he might blow the high draft pick that the Patriots will be getting in the upcoming draft. I think Kraft stays with Belichick at least until the next season. But if Belichick's draft picks are losers, i think Kraft would have to bid farewell to him.
Moss didnt take any particular skill as a coach, just a check book.
Youre giving Bill to much credit saying he coached those gusy up. Gronk was very highly touted coming out of college and was the second TE picked in the draft. He should have been first but Cincinnati did Cincy things and took Gresham from Oklahoma. He really didnt do much with Welker or Eldeman either. Edelman had Brady as his QB his whole career and Welker spent the majority of his career with him as well. Welker wasnt a superstar but he was good in Miami before coming to NE, he was already developed when he got there.
Honestly if he manages to blow a top 5 pick this year I'd be impressed. This is a very offensive draft where even if the top QBs are all gone theres multiple WRs, Bowers, 3-4 tackles etc that would all be worthy of being taken that high. Unless he just intentionally tries to do something super cute you could just throw at a dart board of names and not mess it up. Theres still going to be some first round caliber offensive players in the second round this year
you must not have been watching football back then. Moss absolutely had to be coached/mentored. He was a basket case who literally gave up on the Raiders. He was a clubhouse cancer before he came to NE.
Edelman was a college QB. I would say he took some coaching to become a great NFL slot receiver. Welker was an established NFL receiver, though not close to what he would become in NE.
Moss did not have to be mentored. Hes a HOF WR that was elite when he signed with them. He was a diva like most WRs are and anyone thats ever watched a game knew all you had to do was throw the ball in the air and let him go get it. Hes ones of the greatest WRs of all time that signed with them as a 30 year old.who had been in the league for a decade. He already had 5 years with over 1300 yards, 7 years with over 1000 yards and lead the league in TD receptions 3 times before signing with the Pats.
Edelman had some moments but calling him great is a stretch. He was a very bad QB at Kent State that basically just ran the ball in a conference that is known for high powered offenses
Again, you are only reading stat sheets. you apparently dont know any backstory at all.
Moss quit on his team. He 100% needed mentoring. 100%.
You dont remember, because you dont watch games, but it was the same deal when BB signed Corey Dillon. He was a team cancer who became a great player again under BB.
Are you seriously trying to argue that Randy Moss became a great player under Bill and hadnt been for a decade already or that the same wasnt true for Corey Dillion?
you are not listening. That is not at all what i was saying. Both players had become uncoachable and locker room cancers. they were both considered risky signings/trades. the local sports talk up here in NE was at best split about moss/dillon when they were first acquired. there was fear they would be malcontents and destroy the locker room.
BB absolutely shut all of that down and they both were very productive with NE
Dillion signed at the end of his career and had one top year which is normal for RBs. Moss was already one of the greatest WRs of all time. Radio and media can say whatever they want it doesnt make any of it true. My cat could have coached Moss and he would have still been elite as long as the ball was thrown to him. Moss was angry that Oakland was a dumpster fire and didnt have a QB his final year. Dillion was injured his final year in Cnicy and wanted the ball more too. Elite players especially skill players want the ball.
Then if your cat could have coached Moss and he would have been an elite WR, what happened in 2006? Why wasnt he elite then? I will answer. He was a team cancer/malcontent. Same deal with Dillon. why was he so terrible in 2003? did he forget how to see a hole? did he forget how to run? did he slow down only to remember how in 2004 and have his best season?
These guys were brought into a very rigid, tightly controlled situation with the understanding that if they crossed certain boundaries they would be released. The whole coaching staff had control over the situation. they had formed a locker room with strong player/leaders who also would not put up with malcontent garbage.
What happened in 2006 was he missed a couple games, had absolute garbage QBs, and wasnt getting thrown the ball enough. Walter and Brooks combined for 24 interceptions and 7 TDs and less than 3k yards. Good luck putting up numbers with those too. Are we just going to ignore that Moss had over 10k yards before that and being a top 5 WR for 8 years already?
Dillion was hurt in 2003
I really dont know what to say if youre going to credit Bill for Moss who was already one of the best WRs of ALL TIME and Dillion who was an elite RB at the end of his career coming off an injury.
Why cant Bill "coach up" his terrible Oline/Rbs/Wrs/TEs that he has now?
you dont know what you dont know.
here are some quotes from the 2003 bengals:
From Willie Anderson, RT: "They definitely can't bring him back, because he would destroy us next year," Anderson said. "The cancer would take affect."
"I'm taking it personally, That means you don't want to play with me, and you don't want to play with (center) Rich Braham and you don't want to play with the guys that played hurt for you for a lot of years and a lot of yards," Anderson said. "Basically, he was the guy we were playing our tail off for. We didn't have a lot to play for in a lot of those years, but the one thing we could take pride in is that we could help the running back go to the Pro Bowl. That was something we shot for. He knows that we were looking to give him the big games. It hurts me to see him laughing over there. If you want out of here that bad, adios."
"At the beginning of the season, he had a coach (Lewis) that loved him. Loved him," Anderson said. "There were years we had no passing game, and we didn't have a defense and we didn't have the luxury of a lead where we could sit and pound it with him.
"This year we had that," Anderson said. "But he was hurt. I don't know why he's mad. I don't know why he's mad at Mike Brown, (running backs coach) Jim Anderson, the players. If he had been healthy, that would have been him in there. But Rudi had to step in. Nobody hurt you, bro. You got hurt."
Dillon got his feelings hurt that the backup RB was successful during his injury and became a malcontent and clubhouse cancer after he returned from injury.
you really need to learn the context of this stuff.
Have you ever played sports? Do you think its something knew that some teammates might not get along or that people will lash out in comments out of frustration when a player leaves knowing that will make them more popular for doing so?
Dillion had one good year with the Pats was injured his second year and retired after the third.
Not only was Brady there but again, if Bill somehow "coached these players up" when one was already a HOFer and the other was very good at the end of his career, why cant he coach anyone up on offense now
Of course I played sports. most of us here did. not really pertinent to this discussion.
Of course, teammates do not always get along. the point here is that BB created an environment of coaches and players here in NE that would not allow players to become cancers in the clubhouse like they did on other teams. EVERYTHING was controlled. Had you been old enough to watch the games/postgames back then you would have seen for yourself how controlled even the player's post-game pressers were. everyone was in lockstep and toed the line. Or you were cut. That is why malcontents like Moss and Dillon were able to be integrated into the NE system when they were so toxic elsewhere.
The point is that youre trying to say that somehow Bill made players including one of the best WRs of all time. Youre overstating the issues giving him a bunch of credit for things he didnt do.
Why cant they win without Brady?
Why have players been cut and arrested for having guns in an airport, why did they trade for Jackson and cut him for issues, why was Boutte drafted if they wont even dress him?
Theres countless things showing that no Bill did not somehow turn people around as a miracle worker. If they were good enough he tolerated them, if they werent they got got cut to shift the blame from his decisions.
The whole point is, BB created an environment where he, his coaching staff and veteran players were all holding these clubhouse cancer types accountable. they were signed under very strict conditions. if they could not follow said conditions, they were cut. end of story. this showed players the rules were no joke. you mess up, your cut. These standards were reinforced by the coaching staff and the teams veteran players. It was a very tightly run ship for 20 years. now, BB is getting old and now, perhaps those standards are slipping.
Some players need that type of rigid standards or they just cant hold it together. that would be a Moss, or a Dillon type. others, like Josh Gordon cannot succeed even with that type of support. so he gets cut.
I never said BB made Moss or Dillon great players. they were already great. what BB did, was save them from themselves. they were both heading down the path of being quickly out of the league. they both quit on their teams and had HORRIBLE attitudes/work ethics before coming to the Patriots.
What makes you think that?
Brady thrilled about the demise?
Not sure Bill is thrilled about Tom’s divorce.
Did they dislike each other ?
I wouldn't say dislike but Brady was hung out to dry by Bill during his last season and skipped town, Bill always thought it was his coaching that was behind the 20 years of success, I'm sure it annoyed Brady and to see Bill swimming in the disaster that he created must make Brady laugh
If I was Brady I'd be laughing and actually thoroughly enjoying what is unfolding in New England
What makes you think that?
Brady thrilled about the demise?
Not sure Bill is thrilled about Tom’s divorce.
Did they dislike each other ?
I wouldn't say dislike but Brady was hung out to dry by Bill during his last season and skipped town, Bill always thought it was his coaching that was behind the 20 years of success, I'm sure it annoyed Brady and to see Bill swimming in the disaster that he created must make Brady laugh
If I was Brady I'd be laughing and actually thoroughly enjoying what is unfolding in New England
Just my opinion
Did not know this.
Belichick openly admitted he was the reason for NE’s success ?
What makes you think that?
Brady thrilled about the demise?
Not sure Bill is thrilled about Tom’s divorce.
Did they dislike each other ?
I wouldn't say dislike but Brady was hung out to dry by Bill during his last season and skipped town, Bill always thought it was his coaching that was behind the 20 years of success, I'm sure it annoyed Brady and to see Bill swimming in the disaster that he created must make Brady laugh
If I was Brady I'd be laughing and actually thoroughly enjoying what is unfolding in New England
Just my opinion
Did not know this.
Belichick openly admitted he was the reason for NE’s success ?
No, but it's sort of known in New England that this Brady vs Belichick thing has been going on for awhile.
However there was a lot of animosity between the two and that I know for a fact, my close friend has a friend who i met that works in the Patriots organization.
What makes you think that?
Brady thrilled about the demise?
Not sure Bill is thrilled about Tom’s divorce.
Did they dislike each other ?
I wouldn't say dislike but Brady was hung out to dry by Bill during his last season and skipped town, Bill always thought it was his coaching that was behind the 20 years of success, I'm sure it annoyed Brady and to see Bill swimming in the disaster that he created must make Brady laugh
If I was Brady I'd be laughing and actually thoroughly enjoying what is unfolding in New England
Just my opinion
Did not know this.
Belichick openly admitted he was the reason for NE’s success ?
No, but it's sort of known in New England that this Brady vs Belichick thing has been going on for awhile.
However there was a lot of animosity between the two and that I know for a fact, my close friend has a friend who i met that works in the Patriots organization.
Thats all I can say
True. Simms/Tuna, Bradshaw/Noll and a few other relationships were rocky. Not surprised.
As someone that has lived in Missouri my whole life, I can tell you that with the much more limited coverage of the BB/TB story line, even I know all the things being posited by the New England crew here to be true.
I'm not trying to be demeaning by questioning Applejacks' age, but if you watched Super Bowl XXV, then all you heard after the fact was that Belichek was a defensive genius. That's why the Browns hired him. That's why the Jets hired him. That's why the Patriots hired him. That was absolutely the narrative across the league.
Super Bowl XXVI was supposed to be a blowout and a coronation of Mike Martz and The Greatest Show on Turf.
Even though John Madden gushed about Brady on the game winning drive, BB was once again hailed by most of the media as the defensive genius that won them the game.
From then on, you couldn't hardly watch a pregame show each week and about the genius of BB, and his ability to scheme against quarterbacks. They would throw stats up regarding BB vs Rookie quarterbacks such as completion percentage, yards per game, yards per attempt, distance of the pass etc. Then the next week New England would be facing a 3rd year QB, and they'd throw up the same stats of BB vs quarterbacks that had less than 40 starts in their career, etc. BB vs Peyton Manning. It was always about BB, and BB's defensive genius and his schemes. Never mind that they had talent on defense. Never mind that Brady was leading the offense.
The fact that this thread has turned into this all being questioned is humorous to me. You couldn't help but be inundated with it if you lived through that time as even a casual football fan.
@countdouglas said:
As someone that has lived in Missouri my whole life, I can tell you that with the much more limited coverage of the BB/TB story line, even I know all the things being posited by the New England crew here to be true.
I'm not trying to be demeaning by questioning Applejacks' age, but if you watched Super Bowl XXV, then all you heard after the fact was that Belichek was a defensive genius. That's why the Browns hired him. That's why the Jets hired him. That's why the Patriots hired him. That was absolutely the narrative across the league.
Super Bowl XXVI was supposed to be a blowout and a coronation of Mike Martz and The Greatest Show on Turf.
Even though John Madden gushed about Brady on the game winning drive, BB was once again hailed by most of the media as the defensive genius that won them the game.
From then on, you couldn't hardly watch a pregame show each week and about the genius of BB, and his ability to scheme against quarterbacks. They would throw stats up regarding BB vs Rookie quarterbacks such as completion percentage, yards per game, yards per attempt, distance of the pass etc. Then the next week New England would be facing a 3rd year QB, and they'd throw up the same stats of BB vs quarterbacks that had less than 40 starts in their career, etc. BB vs Peyton Manning. It was always about BB, and BB's defensive genius and his schemes. Never mind that they had talent on defense. Never mind that Brady was leading the offense.
The fact that this thread has turned into this all being questioned is humorous to me. You couldn't help but be inundated with it if you lived through that time as even a casual football fan.
Two geniuses can live harmoniously together, like too many examples to list.
bill needs to be fired today. kreepy kraft doesn't want to eat the contract because it will cut into his orchids of Asia slush fund
We are either tanking or trying to win ! Bill played for a tie Sunday , everything he does now looks like its done for spite. He is a garbage person needs to go
@stevek said:
"that has an old over-the-hill head coach (Bill Belichick) who has morphed into a modern day version of an old over-the-hill Tom Landry."
The above is pasted from my opening post in the Eagles thread.
It wasn't any secret that Belichick's coaching skills had degraded. But I didn't think it was nearly this bad.
I'm not sure his coaching has really changed and the game very well may have just passed him at this point. Hes always been terrible with how he treats players its just when you win thats called instilling discipline or people dont care. Obviously that narrative changes when youre losing. To many years of him drafting have caught up with them now that they dont have Brady to bail them out (which they lucked into).
Yea but ya gotta remember Gronk, Edelman, and others he coached up over the years. Randy Moss was a pretty good free agent signing.
There's not much room for error when coaching at the top level. Missing something while analyzing game film, improper game planning, etc, IE a wide assortment of possible mistakes that likely he wouldn't have made when he was younger and more cognizant.
The coming "problem" is he might blow the high draft pick that the Patriots will be getting in the upcoming draft. I think Kraft stays with Belichick at least until the next season. But if Belichick's draft picks are losers, i think Kraft would have to bid farewell to him.
Moss didnt take any particular skill as a coach, just a check book.
Youre giving Bill to much credit saying he coached those gusy up. Gronk was very highly touted coming out of college and was the second TE picked in the draft. He should have been first but Cincinnati did Cincy things and took Gresham from Oklahoma. He really didnt do much with Welker or Eldeman either. Edelman had Brady as his QB his whole career and Welker spent the majority of his career with him as well. Welker wasnt a superstar but he was good in Miami before coming to NE, he was already developed when he got there.
Honestly if he manages to blow a top 5 pick this year I'd be impressed. This is a very offensive draft where even if the top QBs are all gone theres multiple WRs, Bowers, 3-4 tackles etc that would all be worthy of being taken that high. Unless he just intentionally tries to do something super cute you could just throw at a dart board of names and not mess it up. Theres still going to be some first round caliber offensive players in the second round this year
you must not have been watching football back then. Moss absolutely had to be coached/mentored. He was a basket case who literally gave up on the Raiders. He was a clubhouse cancer before he came to NE.
Edelman was a college QB. I would say he took some coaching to become a great NFL slot receiver. Welker was an established NFL receiver, though not close to what he would become in NE.
Moss did not have to be mentored. Hes a HOF WR that was elite when he signed with them. He was a diva like most WRs are and anyone thats ever watched a game knew all you had to do was throw the ball in the air and let him go get it. Hes ones of the greatest WRs of all time that signed with them as a 30 year old.who had been in the league for a decade. He already had 5 years with over 1300 yards, 7 years with over 1000 yards and lead the league in TD receptions 3 times before signing with the Pats.
Edelman had some moments but calling him great is a stretch. He was a very bad QB at Kent State that basically just ran the ball in a conference that is known for high powered offenses
Again, you are only reading stat sheets. you apparently dont know any backstory at all.
Moss quit on his team. He 100% needed mentoring. 100%.
You dont remember, because you dont watch games, but it was the same deal when BB signed Corey Dillon. He was a team cancer who became a great player again under BB.
Are you seriously trying to argue that Randy Moss became a great player under Bill and hadnt been for a decade already or that the same wasnt true for Corey Dillion?
you are not listening. That is not at all what i was saying. Both players had become uncoachable and locker room cancers. they were both considered risky signings/trades. the local sports talk up here in NE was at best split about moss/dillon when they were first acquired. there was fear they would be malcontents and destroy the locker room.
BB absolutely shut all of that down and they both were very productive with NE
Dillion signed at the end of his career and had one top year which is normal for RBs. Moss was already one of the greatest WRs of all time. Radio and media can say whatever they want it doesnt make any of it true. My cat could have coached Moss and he would have still been elite as long as the ball was thrown to him. Moss was angry that Oakland was a dumpster fire and didnt have a QB his final year. Dillion was injured his final year in Cnicy and wanted the ball more too. Elite players especially skill players want the ball.
Then if your cat could have coached Moss and he would have been an elite WR, what happened in 2006? Why wasnt he elite then? I will answer. He was a team cancer/malcontent. Same deal with Dillon. why was he so terrible in 2003? did he forget how to see a hole? did he forget how to run? did he slow down only to remember how in 2004 and have his best season?
These guys were brought into a very rigid, tightly controlled situation with the understanding that if they crossed certain boundaries they would be released. The whole coaching staff had control over the situation. they had formed a locker room with strong player/leaders who also would not put up with malcontent garbage.
What happened in 2006 was he missed a couple games, had absolute garbage QBs, and wasnt getting thrown the ball enough. Walter and Brooks combined for 24 interceptions and 7 TDs and less than 3k yards. Good luck putting up numbers with those too. Are we just going to ignore that Moss had over 10k yards before that and being a top 5 WR for 8 years already?
Dillion was hurt in 2003
I really dont know what to say if youre going to credit Bill for Moss who was already one of the best WRs of ALL TIME and Dillion who was an elite RB at the end of his career coming off an injury.
Why cant Bill "coach up" his terrible Oline/Rbs/Wrs/TEs that he has now?
you dont know what you dont know.
here are some quotes from the 2003 bengals:
From Willie Anderson, RT: "They definitely can't bring him back, because he would destroy us next year," Anderson said. "The cancer would take affect."
"I'm taking it personally, That means you don't want to play with me, and you don't want to play with (center) Rich Braham and you don't want to play with the guys that played hurt for you for a lot of years and a lot of yards," Anderson said. "Basically, he was the guy we were playing our tail off for. We didn't have a lot to play for in a lot of those years, but the one thing we could take pride in is that we could help the running back go to the Pro Bowl. That was something we shot for. He knows that we were looking to give him the big games. It hurts me to see him laughing over there. If you want out of here that bad, adios."
"At the beginning of the season, he had a coach (Lewis) that loved him. Loved him," Anderson said. "There were years we had no passing game, and we didn't have a defense and we didn't have the luxury of a lead where we could sit and pound it with him.
"This year we had that," Anderson said. "But he was hurt. I don't know why he's mad. I don't know why he's mad at Mike Brown, (running backs coach) Jim Anderson, the players. If he had been healthy, that would have been him in there. But Rudi had to step in. Nobody hurt you, bro. You got hurt."
Dillon got his feelings hurt that the backup RB was successful during his injury and became a malcontent and clubhouse cancer after he returned from injury.
you really need to learn the context of this stuff.
Have you ever played sports? Do you think its something knew that some teammates might not get along or that people will lash out in comments out of frustration when a player leaves knowing that will make them more popular for doing so?
Dillion had one good year with the Pats was injured his second year and retired after the third.
Not only was Brady there but again, if Bill somehow "coached these players up" when one was already a HOFer and the other was very good at the end of his career, why cant he coach anyone up on offense now
Of course I played sports. most of us here did. not really pertinent to this discussion.
Of course, teammates do not always get along. the point here is that BB created an environment of coaches and players here in NE that would not allow players to become cancers in the clubhouse like they did on other teams. EVERYTHING was controlled. Had you been old enough to watch the games/postgames back then you would have seen for yourself how controlled even the player's post-game pressers were. everyone was in lockstep and toed the line. Or you were cut. That is why malcontents like Moss and Dillon were able to be integrated into the NE system when they were so toxic elsewhere.
The point is that youre trying to say that somehow Bill made players including one of the best WRs of all time. Youre overstating the issues giving him a bunch of credit for things he didnt do.
Why cant they win without Brady?
Why have players been cut and arrested for having guns in an airport, why did they trade for Jackson and cut him for issues, why was Boutte drafted if they wont even dress him?
Theres countless things showing that no Bill did not somehow turn people around as a miracle worker. If they were good enough he tolerated them, if they werent they got got cut to shift the blame from his decisions.
The whole point is, BB created an environment where he, his coaching staff and veteran players were all holding these clubhouse cancer types accountable. they were signed under very strict conditions. if they could not follow said conditions, they were cut. end of story. this showed players the rules were no joke. you mess up, your cut. These standards were reinforced by the coaching staff and the teams veteran players. It was a very tightly run ship for 20 years. now, BB is getting old and now, perhaps those standards are slipping.
Some players need that type of rigid standards or they just cant hold it together. that would be a Moss, or a Dillon type. others, like Josh Gordon cannot succeed even with that type of support. so he gets cut.
I never said BB made Moss or Dillon great players. they were already great. what BB did, was save them from themselves. they were both heading down the path of being quickly out of the league. they both quit on their teams and had HORRIBLE attitudes/work ethics before coming to the Patriots.
Neither Moss nor Dillion had remotely close to a horrible work ethic. Moss wasnt close to being out of the league when he went to NE in terms of talent. Dillion wasnt either. What they both were was aging and injuries got Dillion and obviously the shorter careers for RBs. Moss could have played longer if he wanted but he didnt want to keep playing just to say he was still playing and never liked not being the guy.
If somehow his "discipline" was saving these insanely talented and even a HOF great then why isnt his system which has been in place for 20 years still working? Hes coached over a decade as a 60 year old or older, Nick Saban is 72, Andy Reid is 64, Pete Carroll is 72
The big difference between now and 5 years ago is that Brady is gone and people dont want to play for Bill. They tolerated him to play with Brady and win a championship but now that hes gone players dont enjoy being there. Jackson was an actual problem child that they traded for, SD paid him not to play because they were better with him off the field. If someone supposedly has such high standards you never bring that guy in in the first place, you never draft Boutte etc.
Bill gets a lot of credit for things he just simply didnt do and the whole mentoring narrative is just false. Actual problem players like Jackson and Haynesworth were brought in because he thought they could help. Some strict standard would never have signed them.
Bill got lucky Bledsoe got hurt which lead to Brady getting a chance he never would have otherwise which lead to players wanting to go play for a top QB both for their stats and to win a ring. Exact same thing that happened in Tampa
What makes you think that?
Brady thrilled about the demise?
Not sure Bill is thrilled about Tom’s divorce.
Did they dislike each other ?
I wouldn't say dislike but Brady was hung out to dry by Bill during his last season and skipped town, Bill always thought it was his coaching that was behind the 20 years of success, I'm sure it annoyed Brady and to see Bill swimming in the disaster that he created must make Brady laugh
If I was Brady I'd be laughing and actually thoroughly enjoying what is unfolding in New England
Just my opinion
Did not know this.
Belichick openly admitted he was the reason for NE’s success ?
No, but it's sort of known in New England that this Brady vs Belichick thing has been going on for awhile.
However there was a lot of animosity between the two and that I know for a fact, my close friend has a friend who i met that works in the Patriots organization.
Thats all I can say
Without question. It was bad enough the Kraft didnt step in and was hoping they could work it out instead of throwing a ton of money and forcing Brady on Bill
So you were around for Montana/Walsh and Marino/Shula, but you have no recollection of the narrative around Bill Belichick? What the hell is going on in this thread? BB and TB worked together just fine, i.e. 6 Super Bowl wins, it's just that Coach got an inordinate amount of credit for it, especially the early ones. It was all because of the Evil Genius. It was Bill vs Rookie QBs. It was Bill vs. the AFC East. It was Bill vs Peyton Manning. It was never about the Patriots as a team or the talent and success of the players, or Tom Brady, until much later in the run. It's clear you weren't cognizant of it or were never exposed to it. That's ALL the media talked about, and I'm talking about here in the Midwest, not the nonstop East Coast drivel.
@countdouglas said:
So you were around for Montana/Walsh and Marino/Shula, but you have no recollection of the narrative around Bill Belichick? What the hell is going on in this thread? BB and TB worked together just fine, i.e. 6 Super Bowl wins, it's just that Coach got an inordinate amount of credit for it, especially the early ones. It was all because of the Evil Genius. It was Bill vs Rookie QBs. It was Bill vs. the AFC East. It was Bill vs Peyton Manning. It was never about the Patriots as a team or the talent and success of the players, or Tom Brady, until much later in the run. It's clear you weren't cognizant of it or were never exposed to it. That's ALL the media talked about, and I'm talking about here in the Midwest, not the nonstop East Coast drivel.
I don’t turn on CNN or foxnews either. In case you haven’t noticed, everything is negative and nothing is positive.
Sports talk is all the same. Negative gossip.
I watch on field performances only, and it appeared Tom and Bill worked well together.
@Applejacks said:
So will Patriots fans ever have a Boston Tea Party movement at Gillette Stadium, or will you remain civil this time ?
I'm fine honestly.
I am thankful for the unreal success the Pats had for so long, obviously I want them to win but all the AFC Championship games and Super Bowl appearances believe it or not brought on some type of stress, it literally got to a point that if they fell short of a Super Bowl win then it was a major let down, and let me tell you the Super Bowls were ridiculously stressful, not once did they go into a Super Bowl and just dominate start to finish like playoff and regular season games.
We will continue to be cranky about Belichick and the poor performance that the Pats put out now but speaking for myself I'm satisfied.
It's not so much that they are not competitive for the division its just the team that this guy has put together is so bad it's just confusing to the point that it's like he isn't even trying, we got a potentially great WR from LSU named Boutte that hasn't dressed for a single game when the WR position has glaring holes, stuff like that just adds to why we question his personal decisions
@countdouglas said:
So you were around for Montana/Walsh and Marino/Shula, but you have no recollection of the narrative around Bill Belichick? What the hell is going on in this thread? BB and TB worked together just fine, i.e. 6 Super Bowl wins, it's just that Coach got an inordinate amount of credit for it, especially the early ones. It was all because of the Evil Genius. It was Bill vs Rookie QBs. It was Bill vs. the AFC East. It was Bill vs Peyton Manning. It was never about the Patriots as a team or the talent and success of the players, or Tom Brady, until much later in the run. It's clear you weren't cognizant of it or were never exposed to it. That's ALL the media talked about, and I'm talking about here in the Midwest, not the nonstop East Coast drivel.
They worked together fine on the surface but the last couple years it was evident that there was a lot of strife going on.
Brady would have finished his career in New England but Bills decisions drove him out, that is a fact.
In all 20 year relationships there will always be some issues
The fact is that quite a few blue chip Hall of Famers didn't spend their final season(s) with their original team for which they excelled. Players such as Joe Montana, Emmitt Smith, Bret Favre come immediately to mind. Doesn't mean they didn't have a good working relationship with their boss.
Frankly when it comes to the NFL, winning is really all that matters to both the players and coaches, certainly the owners. Why? Because winning translates into money, and the NFL first and foremost is a business.
Sure the other stuff is fine, the publicity, the trophies, the friends made, etc, but none of them are out there doing it for free. Even the charity events that players do, it's almost always written into their contract as a requirement for the job.
Ask any player, and if they're being honest, would choose winning with a coach they despise, over losing with a coach they like. Case closed.
@countdouglas said:
So you were around for Montana/Walsh and Marino/Shula, but you have no recollection of the narrative around Bill Belichick? What the hell is going on in this thread? BB and TB worked together just fine, i.e. 6 Super Bowl wins, it's just that Coach got an inordinate amount of credit for it, especially the early ones. It was all because of the Evil Genius. It was Bill vs Rookie QBs. It was Bill vs. the AFC East. It was Bill vs Peyton Manning. It was never about the Patriots as a team or the talent and success of the players, or Tom Brady, until much later in the run. It's clear you weren't cognizant of it or were never exposed to it. That's ALL the media talked about, and I'm talking about here in the Midwest, not the nonstop East Coast drivel.
They worked together fine on the surface but the last couple years it was evident that there was a lot of strife going on.
Brady would have finished his career in New England but Bills decisions drove him out, that is a fact.
In all 20 year relationships there will always be some issues
I agree with ya for the most part. However the basic rule of thumb in sports owner management is all things being equal, always try to trade a player if he's on the way down. That way you get maximum value for him versus say a year or two later when he's completely shot. Sure there are all sorts of exceptions to this, depending on a particular team's needs at the time. But this is a general rule of thumb.
Look, Tom Brady is an anomaly. Virtually everyone, including me, thought at the time of his release from the Patriots, that he was on his way down. The Bucs at that time had in place a pretty good team except for a QB. So they rolled the dice and hoped that Brady had one or two possible good years left, and they rolled a seven.
From what I've read, Brady didn't exactly have a "loving" relationship with Bruce Arians either. Arians actually reminded me of a Belichick in his mannerisms, etc. But Brady won a Super Bowl with him regardless.
"Neither Moss nor Dillion had remotely close to a horrible work ethic. Moss wasnt close to being out of the league when he went to NE in terms of talent. Dillion wasnt either. What they both were was aging and injuries got Dillion and obviously the shorter careers for RBs. Moss could have played longer if he wanted but he didnt want to keep playing just to say he was still playing and never liked not being the guy.
If somehow his "discipline" was saving these insanely talented and even a HOF great then why isnt his system which has been in place for 20 years still working? Hes coached over a decade as a 60 year old or older, Nick Saban is 72, Andy Reid is 64, Pete Carroll is 72"
You must not have been around back then. or if you were, you were not following football. I never said they were close to out of the league because of talent. At that time, both players were malcontent clubhouse cancers. it is irrefutable. Dillon got hurt, lost a ton of playing time to a younger player and gave up on his team. Did you not read the quotes?
Both players came to NE with very short leashes and the environment that was created by BB forced them on the straight and narrow. Why isnt it still working? Perhaps he aged out? cannot put in the same hours. has lost some of his moxie? it will happen to all of us, and not at exactly the same age.
"Bill got lucky Bledsoe got hurt which lead to Brady getting a chance he never would have otherwise which lead to players wanting to go play for a top QB both for their stats and to win a ring."
Again, you do not know any of the history. perhaps it was talked about far more in NE than on the national stage. It was well known back in 01 that BB went WAY out on a limb to keep Brady as the starter after Bledsoe was cleared to play. The safe bet was absolutely to play Bledsoe. He had just recently signed the biggest contract in NFL history. Do you think RK wanted his highest-paid player to be sitting the bench for the 6th-round draft pick from the previous year?
BB could also have made the same play after Brady was hurt in the first half of the AFCCG and Bledsoe came in and played well. there was only one week between the SB that year and Bledsoe was the high priced player with SB experience who had played well in the AFCCG. BB again went out on that limb and stayed with Brady for the SB.
"Bill got lucky Bledsoe got hurt which lead to Brady getting a chance he never would have otherwise which lead to players wanting to go play for a top QB both for their stats and to win a ring."
Again, you do not know any of the history. perhaps it was talked about far more in NE than on the national stage. It was well known back in 01 that BB went WAY out on a limb to keep Brady as the starter after Bledsoe was cleared to play. The safe bet was absolutely to play Bledsoe. He had just recently signed the biggest contract in NFL history. Do you think RK wanted his highest-paid player to be sitting the bench for the 6th-round draft pick from the previous year?
BB could also have made the same play after Brady was hurt in the first half of the AFCCG and Bledsoe came in and played well. there was only one week between the SB that year and Bledsoe was the high priced player with SB experience who had played well in the AFCCG. BB again went out on that limb and stayed with Brady for the SB.
Brady would not have been a starter if Bledsoe didnt get hurt. Bledose was Wally Pipped. It was the right decision but Brady was drafted to be a back up with no intention of starting which an injury lead to him starting. Saying over and over that I must not have been around doesnt change what happened.
Bill didnt make Brady, he didnt make a HOF WR one of the best ever WRs or a top RB. Moss was not almost out of the league and saved by Bill. Moss could have went to any team in the league. I get it that some Pats fans really love Bill and want to think he was the savior, but this is the NFL not college. College coaches can out recruit other coaches, if Bill somehow did all these things then they should still be happening
@Basebal21 You are missing the entire point. like, all of it. You are missing the context.
"Saying over and over that I must not have been around doesnt change what happened."
you are looking at the Brady situation through the lense of someone who was not there at the time, or of someone who has not done any of the research about the situation. We ALL know how it turned out. Yup, Brady became the GOAT, won tons of titles, MVP's etc. etc. you are missing BB's part in it all because you can only see it from the end of the story.
In context, when the story was playing out, It was very different. BB easily could have been fired for not playing Bledsoe. He stuck his neck WAY out for Tommy. A Tommy who was unproven, and not at that time the GOAT.
Without BB, it is very possible that Brady could have been a backup who started for 6 or 8 weeks and rode the pine after Bledsoe returned.
I get it. you didnt watch it play out real time. its fine. what i dont get is you continuing with a false narrative after having been corrected.
Dont take my word for it, go read some books/articles from the time period.
I don't think some understand that coaches have "windows" same as players have windows. We all do. Fortunately for the Belichick/Brady combo, that window of greatness coincided at the same time. To me it's obvious.
This company I used to work for, bought out this other company that had a legend working for them. When I first saw the legend, this guy was around 60 years old at the time. I was in my mid twenties. I had never met him, but I saw his name on the sign-in sheet of a large corporation and he just happened to be waiting for the same buyer to make a sales call, who I also had a sales call with. He had the appointment first.
Sometimes a buyer doesn't have time to walk back to his office, so ya have to make your quick presentation in the lobby. No problem. So anyway, I got to hear this legend's presentation, sort of incognito. He had no way of knowing that I was a competitor.
The guy, his name was Jim, struck fear into me just from his presence. The guy was tall, handsome, movie star looks, well spoken, very knowledgeable, and pitched the products much better than me. I said to myself, how the living yell am I ever going to compete against this guy? Well all I could possibly do at the time was try to outwork him, which I did, and i did a fine job for the company bringing in business.
So forward to around ten years later, and the buy-out, after a few months, i asked the guy, now in his 70's, if he would go out on a sales call with me to this company that I had been trying to close for a long time. Super nice guy and he gladly agreed. We drove up to North Jersey, had a very pleasant chat along the way, and we get in front of the buyer. Well he did most of the talking and it was one of the worst dam presentations I had ever heard. He's spewing the pitch and I'm sitting there wondering when the other Jim was going to show-up? Wish it had a happy ending, but we didn't get the account. I never said anything to my boss about his poor performance. I figured anybody can have a bad day, but I never again asked him to go on a call with me.
I guess it's around a few months later, and Jim was given responsibility for working on a huge bid. One of the biggest in our industry. Long story short, he literally forgot to hand in the bid. An astonishingly stupid mistake that i had never heard of anyone doing before or since. My boss fired him the next day.
I think my story may relate with what is happening to Bill Belichick. And of course his job is a lot tougher and stressful than anything I or Jim ever did. Although our jobs were always on the line as well, IE produce or you're gone.
In my opinion, I highly doubt that Belichick ever again becomes the brilliant coach that he once was. It happened to Landry and other coaches, simply old age taking its toll on a person's cognitive ability to compete at a high level.
@perkdog said:
It's 100% better than keeping him on the practice squad, route running and live action reps in game outweighs practice every time
Does he have an incentive clause in his contract and NE is trying to save money? Or maybe using him to trade up during this upcoming draft?
IDK, I think it's probably a Belichick doesn't like him type of thing
Why draft a guy in any spot if your not going to see what he can do?
Either way he is a 6th round pick so I highly doubt it's a money issue, I mean Bill has plenty of money for long snappers and gunners on ST, the WR corps could use some love
bill is locked in some passive aggressive dance of death with kraft jones and the hated media
since we are going to suck regardless might as well enjoy the ride
@Steven59 said:
What good is a great receiver if you have 2 lousy QB's?
If youre referring to Boutte hes a talented WR that has problems. He fell to the 6th round for a reason. He is their best WR but he has little trade value at the moment and the only way to get him trade value would be to play him.
The only real risk of playing him at this point is that Bill would have to admit he was wrong to sit him all year if he came out and had some good games
For Big Bill Belichick, touchdowns are becoming rarer than wins.
The big question is will the management let Belichick waste the first draft pick?
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
On Nov. 26 showtime wrote that however this Patriots ordeal shakes out that he will be fine basking in the riches of the Patriots double dynasty.
I thought it was cool that he enjoyed their success so much just like perk and Craig and the rest of you.
I used to think there were too many pats fans on this thread, but now there’s definitely one fewer than there should be.
I really think Eric would want you guys to keep this thread active discussing his beloved Patriots.
And I’m going to keep being myself by reminding you guys once in a while that Andy Reid is still rapidly gaining on Belichick’s winning percentage.
For some reason I just want Reid to catch him so I don’t want Billy boy getting fired. 😆
So with the Niners blowing out the Eagles is basebal21 thinking it would be a much bigger blowout if only Mac Jones was the SF QB?
And yes this is a serious question 🤭
@Darin said:
So with the Niners blowing out the Eagles is basebal21 thinking it would be a much bigger blowout if only Mac Jones was the SF QB?
And yes this is a serious question 🤭
Why would it be a bigger blowout as opposed to someone that could do the same?
Comments
That would be awesome
Honestly I'd prefer you as the HC over Belichick right now
Unless Brady takes some major role in the Pats organization, I doubt that he'll be in Foxboro often. I kid about the GM role but that would mean he moves back to New England. IIRC,his ex and the kids live right across the street from him, he may not want to leave that situation.
Eric
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Its going to be interesting how this all plays out. If that report was true that said BB had multiple years left on his deal at,I'm assuming, 20+M/season I just don't see Kraft footing that bill while paying some other HC. We'll see.
Its a shame that Belichick let things get to this point and how he'll be perceived by Pats fans going forward. Its really all of his own fault. He let Tom go,he made all of those horrible draft picks and free agent signings that has led to this point,he decided to just let two of his former coordinators try running the offense for the first time.
Hopefully when Bobby K stops running around with his rap buddies he'll finally make the right decision on his teams future.
Eric
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It is sad to see but I really have no sympathy for Belichick. The guy has destroyed many a young player for not buying into that fraudulent "Patriot Way" crap
The way that i've always looked at The Patriot Way was that that never had anything to do with Bill Belichick. It was players like Tedy Bruschi & Tom Brady who would put the team first then it was passed on through the years with vets like McCourty,Slater & James White.
Sure Belichick had his famous Do Your Job slogan during one of the later SB runs but that came longer after the Humble Pie crew in '07.
I get your point on how Belichick has treated his players over the years but I'll take that all day over the alternative. We've seen Mr Rah-Rah HC who wanted to be everyone's buddy right before Belichick took over in NE and Pete Carroll's way of runnings things never worked, at least not in New England.
Eric
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brady mentored all those guys not bill
why give bill credit for that stuff? the guy is a complete Dbag , who wants a dbag to mentor them?
The point is that youre trying to say that somehow Bill made players including one of the best WRs of all time. Youre overstating the issues giving him a bunch of credit for things he didnt do.
Why cant they win without Brady?
Why have players been cut and arrested for having guns in an airport, why did they trade for Jackson and cut him for issues, why was Boutte drafted if they wont even dress him?
Theres countless things showing that no Bill did not somehow turn people around as a miracle worker. If they were good enough he tolerated them, if they werent they got got cut to shift the blame from his decisions.
brady did all that , bill took the credit
The whole point is, BB created an environment where he, his coaching staff and veteran players were all holding these clubhouse cancer types accountable. they were signed under very strict conditions. if they could not follow said conditions, they were cut. end of story. this showed players the rules were no joke. you mess up, your cut. These standards were reinforced by the coaching staff and the teams veteran players. It was a very tightly run ship for 20 years. now, BB is getting old and now, perhaps those standards are slipping.
Some players need that type of rigid standards or they just cant hold it together. that would be a Moss, or a Dillon type. others, like Josh Gordon cannot succeed even with that type of support. so he gets cut.
I never said BB made Moss or Dillon great players. they were already great. what BB did, was save them from themselves. they were both heading down the path of being quickly out of the league. they both quit on their teams and had HORRIBLE attitudes/work ethics before coming to the Patriots.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Perk,
What makes you think that?
Brady thrilled about the demise?
Not sure Bill is thrilled about Tom’s divorce.
Did they dislike each other ?
I wouldn't say dislike but Brady was hung out to dry by Bill during his last season and skipped town, Bill always thought it was his coaching that was behind the 20 years of success, I'm sure it annoyed Brady and to see Bill swimming in the disaster that he created must make Brady laugh
If I was Brady I'd be laughing and actually thoroughly enjoying what is unfolding in New England
Just my opinion
Did not know this.
Belichick openly admitted he was the reason for NE’s success ?
No, but it's sort of known in New England that this Brady vs Belichick thing has been going on for awhile.
However there was a lot of animosity between the two and that I know for a fact, my close friend has a friend who i met that works in the Patriots organization.
Thats all I can say
True. Simms/Tuna, Bradshaw/Noll and a few other relationships were rocky. Not surprised.
both have big egos. even if they never said it out loud, they were feeling it.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
As someone that has lived in Missouri my whole life, I can tell you that with the much more limited coverage of the BB/TB story line, even I know all the things being posited by the New England crew here to be true.
I'm not trying to be demeaning by questioning Applejacks' age, but if you watched Super Bowl XXV, then all you heard after the fact was that Belichek was a defensive genius. That's why the Browns hired him. That's why the Jets hired him. That's why the Patriots hired him. That was absolutely the narrative across the league.
Super Bowl XXVI was supposed to be a blowout and a coronation of Mike Martz and The Greatest Show on Turf.
Even though John Madden gushed about Brady on the game winning drive, BB was once again hailed by most of the media as the defensive genius that won them the game.
From then on, you couldn't hardly watch a pregame show each week and about the genius of BB, and his ability to scheme against quarterbacks. They would throw stats up regarding BB vs Rookie quarterbacks such as completion percentage, yards per game, yards per attempt, distance of the pass etc. Then the next week New England would be facing a 3rd year QB, and they'd throw up the same stats of BB vs quarterbacks that had less than 40 starts in their career, etc. BB vs Peyton Manning. It was always about BB, and BB's defensive genius and his schemes. Never mind that they had talent on defense. Never mind that Brady was leading the offense.
The fact that this thread has turned into this all being questioned is humorous to me. You couldn't help but be inundated with it if you lived through that time as even a casual football fan.
Two geniuses can live harmoniously together, like too many examples to list.
I guess I misunderstood the entire discussion.
...
Welcome to my world. 😂
bill needs to be fired today. kreepy kraft doesn't want to eat the contract because it will cut into his orchids of Asia slush fund
We are either tanking or trying to win ! Bill played for a tie Sunday , everything he does now looks like its done for spite. He is a garbage person needs to go
Neither Moss nor Dillion had remotely close to a horrible work ethic. Moss wasnt close to being out of the league when he went to NE in terms of talent. Dillion wasnt either. What they both were was aging and injuries got Dillion and obviously the shorter careers for RBs. Moss could have played longer if he wanted but he didnt want to keep playing just to say he was still playing and never liked not being the guy.
If somehow his "discipline" was saving these insanely talented and even a HOF great then why isnt his system which has been in place for 20 years still working? Hes coached over a decade as a 60 year old or older, Nick Saban is 72, Andy Reid is 64, Pete Carroll is 72
The big difference between now and 5 years ago is that Brady is gone and people dont want to play for Bill. They tolerated him to play with Brady and win a championship but now that hes gone players dont enjoy being there. Jackson was an actual problem child that they traded for, SD paid him not to play because they were better with him off the field. If someone supposedly has such high standards you never bring that guy in in the first place, you never draft Boutte etc.
Bill gets a lot of credit for things he just simply didnt do and the whole mentoring narrative is just false. Actual problem players like Jackson and Haynesworth were brought in because he thought they could help. Some strict standard would never have signed them.
Bill got lucky Bledsoe got hurt which lead to Brady getting a chance he never would have otherwise which lead to players wanting to go play for a top QB both for their stats and to win a ring. Exact same thing that happened in Tampa
Without question. It was bad enough the Kraft didnt step in and was hoping they could work it out instead of throwing a ton of money and forcing Brady on Bill
Montana/Walsh, Marino/Shula and countless others had very good working relationships.
So you were around for Montana/Walsh and Marino/Shula, but you have no recollection of the narrative around Bill Belichick? What the hell is going on in this thread? BB and TB worked together just fine, i.e. 6 Super Bowl wins, it's just that Coach got an inordinate amount of credit for it, especially the early ones. It was all because of the Evil Genius. It was Bill vs Rookie QBs. It was Bill vs. the AFC East. It was Bill vs Peyton Manning. It was never about the Patriots as a team or the talent and success of the players, or Tom Brady, until much later in the run. It's clear you weren't cognizant of it or were never exposed to it. That's ALL the media talked about, and I'm talking about here in the Midwest, not the nonstop East Coast drivel.
no one has a good relationship with bill. he is like some creepy cult leader
I don’t turn on CNN or foxnews either. In case you haven’t noticed, everything is negative and nothing is positive.
Sports talk is all the same. Negative gossip.
I watch on field performances only, and it appeared Tom and Bill worked well together.
So will Patriots fans ever have a Boston Tea Party movement at Gillette Stadium, or will you remain civil this time ?
I'm fine honestly.
I am thankful for the unreal success the Pats had for so long, obviously I want them to win but all the AFC Championship games and Super Bowl appearances believe it or not brought on some type of stress, it literally got to a point that if they fell short of a Super Bowl win then it was a major let down, and let me tell you the Super Bowls were ridiculously stressful, not once did they go into a Super Bowl and just dominate start to finish like playoff and regular season games.
We will continue to be cranky about Belichick and the poor performance that the Pats put out now but speaking for myself I'm satisfied.
It's not so much that they are not competitive for the division its just the team that this guy has put together is so bad it's just confusing to the point that it's like he isn't even trying, we got a potentially great WR from LSU named Boutte that hasn't dressed for a single game when the WR position has glaring holes, stuff like that just adds to why we question his personal decisions
They worked together fine on the surface but the last couple years it was evident that there was a lot of strife going on.
Brady would have finished his career in New England but Bills decisions drove him out, that is a fact.
In all 20 year relationships there will always be some issues
The fact is that quite a few blue chip Hall of Famers didn't spend their final season(s) with their original team for which they excelled. Players such as Joe Montana, Emmitt Smith, Bret Favre come immediately to mind. Doesn't mean they didn't have a good working relationship with their boss.
Frankly when it comes to the NFL, winning is really all that matters to both the players and coaches, certainly the owners. Why? Because winning translates into money, and the NFL first and foremost is a business.
Sure the other stuff is fine, the publicity, the trophies, the friends made, etc, but none of them are out there doing it for free. Even the charity events that players do, it's almost always written into their contract as a requirement for the job.
Ask any player, and if they're being honest, would choose winning with a coach they despise, over losing with a coach they like. Case closed.
I agree with ya for the most part. However the basic rule of thumb in sports owner management is all things being equal, always try to trade a player if he's on the way down. That way you get maximum value for him versus say a year or two later when he's completely shot. Sure there are all sorts of exceptions to this, depending on a particular team's needs at the time. But this is a general rule of thumb.
Look, Tom Brady is an anomaly. Virtually everyone, including me, thought at the time of his release from the Patriots, that he was on his way down. The Bucs at that time had in place a pretty good team except for a QB. So they rolled the dice and hoped that Brady had one or two possible good years left, and they rolled a seven.
From what I've read, Brady didn't exactly have a "loving" relationship with Bruce Arians either. Arians actually reminded me of a Belichick in his mannerisms, etc. But Brady won a Super Bowl with him regardless.
@Basebal21
"Neither Moss nor Dillion had remotely close to a horrible work ethic. Moss wasnt close to being out of the league when he went to NE in terms of talent. Dillion wasnt either. What they both were was aging and injuries got Dillion and obviously the shorter careers for RBs. Moss could have played longer if he wanted but he didnt want to keep playing just to say he was still playing and never liked not being the guy.
If somehow his "discipline" was saving these insanely talented and even a HOF great then why isnt his system which has been in place for 20 years still working? Hes coached over a decade as a 60 year old or older, Nick Saban is 72, Andy Reid is 64, Pete Carroll is 72"
You must not have been around back then. or if you were, you were not following football. I never said they were close to out of the league because of talent. At that time, both players were malcontent clubhouse cancers. it is irrefutable. Dillon got hurt, lost a ton of playing time to a younger player and gave up on his team. Did you not read the quotes?
Both players came to NE with very short leashes and the environment that was created by BB forced them on the straight and narrow. Why isnt it still working? Perhaps he aged out? cannot put in the same hours. has lost some of his moxie? it will happen to all of us, and not at exactly the same age.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
@Basebal21
"Bill got lucky Bledsoe got hurt which lead to Brady getting a chance he never would have otherwise which lead to players wanting to go play for a top QB both for their stats and to win a ring."
Again, you do not know any of the history. perhaps it was talked about far more in NE than on the national stage. It was well known back in 01 that BB went WAY out on a limb to keep Brady as the starter after Bledsoe was cleared to play. The safe bet was absolutely to play Bledsoe. He had just recently signed the biggest contract in NFL history. Do you think RK wanted his highest-paid player to be sitting the bench for the 6th-round draft pick from the previous year?
BB could also have made the same play after Brady was hurt in the first half of the AFCCG and Bledsoe came in and played well. there was only one week between the SB that year and Bledsoe was the high priced player with SB experience who had played well in the AFCCG. BB again went out on that limb and stayed with Brady for the SB.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Brady would not have been a starter if Bledsoe didnt get hurt. Bledose was Wally Pipped. It was the right decision but Brady was drafted to be a back up with no intention of starting which an injury lead to him starting. Saying over and over that I must not have been around doesnt change what happened.
Bill didnt make Brady, he didnt make a HOF WR one of the best ever WRs or a top RB. Moss was not almost out of the league and saved by Bill. Moss could have went to any team in the league. I get it that some Pats fans really love Bill and want to think he was the savior, but this is the NFL not college. College coaches can out recruit other coaches, if Bill somehow did all these things then they should still be happening
@Basebal21 You are missing the entire point. like, all of it. You are missing the context.
"Saying over and over that I must not have been around doesnt change what happened."
you are looking at the Brady situation through the lense of someone who was not there at the time, or of someone who has not done any of the research about the situation. We ALL know how it turned out. Yup, Brady became the GOAT, won tons of titles, MVP's etc. etc. you are missing BB's part in it all because you can only see it from the end of the story.
In context, when the story was playing out, It was very different. BB easily could have been fired for not playing Bledsoe. He stuck his neck WAY out for Tommy. A Tommy who was unproven, and not at that time the GOAT.
Without BB, it is very possible that Brady could have been a backup who started for 6 or 8 weeks and rode the pine after Bledsoe returned.
I get it. you didnt watch it play out real time. its fine. what i dont get is you continuing with a false narrative after having been corrected.
Dont take my word for it, go read some books/articles from the time period.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I don't think some understand that coaches have "windows" same as players have windows. We all do. Fortunately for the Belichick/Brady combo, that window of greatness coincided at the same time. To me it's obvious.
This company I used to work for, bought out this other company that had a legend working for them. When I first saw the legend, this guy was around 60 years old at the time. I was in my mid twenties. I had never met him, but I saw his name on the sign-in sheet of a large corporation and he just happened to be waiting for the same buyer to make a sales call, who I also had a sales call with. He had the appointment first.
Sometimes a buyer doesn't have time to walk back to his office, so ya have to make your quick presentation in the lobby. No problem. So anyway, I got to hear this legend's presentation, sort of incognito. He had no way of knowing that I was a competitor.
The guy, his name was Jim, struck fear into me just from his presence. The guy was tall, handsome, movie star looks, well spoken, very knowledgeable, and pitched the products much better than me. I said to myself, how the living yell am I ever going to compete against this guy? Well all I could possibly do at the time was try to outwork him, which I did, and i did a fine job for the company bringing in business.
So forward to around ten years later, and the buy-out, after a few months, i asked the guy, now in his 70's, if he would go out on a sales call with me to this company that I had been trying to close for a long time. Super nice guy and he gladly agreed. We drove up to North Jersey, had a very pleasant chat along the way, and we get in front of the buyer. Well he did most of the talking and it was one of the worst dam presentations I had ever heard. He's spewing the pitch and I'm sitting there wondering when the other Jim was going to show-up? Wish it had a happy ending, but we didn't get the account. I never said anything to my boss about his poor performance. I figured anybody can have a bad day, but I never again asked him to go on a call with me.
I guess it's around a few months later, and Jim was given responsibility for working on a huge bid. One of the biggest in our industry. Long story short, he literally forgot to hand in the bid. An astonishingly stupid mistake that i had never heard of anyone doing before or since. My boss fired him the next day.
I think my story may relate with what is happening to Bill Belichick. And of course his job is a lot tougher and stressful than anything I or Jim ever did. Although our jobs were always on the line as well, IE produce or you're gone.
In my opinion, I highly doubt that Belichick ever again becomes the brilliant coach that he once was. It happened to Landry and other coaches, simply old age taking its toll on a person's cognitive ability to compete at a high level.
What good is a great receiver if you have 2 lousy QB's?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
It's 100% better than keeping him on the practice squad, route running and live action reps in game outweighs practice every time
Does he have an incentive clause in his contract and NE is trying to save money? Or maybe using him to trade up during this upcoming draft?
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
IDK, I think it's probably a Belichick doesn't like him type of thing
Why draft a guy in any spot if your not going to see what he can do?
Either way he is a 6th round pick so I highly doubt it's a money issue, I mean Bill has plenty of money for long snappers and gunners on ST, the WR corps could use some love
bill is locked in some passive aggressive dance of death with kraft jones and the hated media
since we are going to suck regardless might as well enjoy the ride
If youre referring to Boutte hes a talented WR that has problems. He fell to the 6th round for a reason. He is their best WR but he has little trade value at the moment and the only way to get him trade value would be to play him.
The only real risk of playing him at this point is that Bill would have to admit he was wrong to sit him all year if he came out and had some good games
For Big Bill Belichick, touchdowns are becoming rarer than wins.
The big question is will the management let Belichick waste the first draft pick?
They get more and more laughable on offense every week
It's too bad because the D had a great game, granted it was against the Chargers who are a joke but still
This Pats offense is currently flirting with some of the worst offenses in NFL history.
Worst Offenses in NFL history:
'77 Bucs 7.4ppg (14 game season)
'74 Falcons 7.9ppg (14g)
'92 Seahawks 8.8ppg (16g)
'76 Bucs 8.9ppg (14g)
'91 Colts 8.9ppg (16g)
'77 Packers 9.6ppg (14g)
'00 Browns 10.1ppg (16g)
'98 Eagles 10.1ppg (16g)
'72 Eagles 10.4ppg (14g)
'70 Patriots 10.6ppg (14g)
'74 Bears 10.9ppg (14g)
'77 Bills 11.4ppg (14g)
'23 Patriots 12.3ppg (12/17 games played)
On the bright side,the 2023 NYG are not far behind us at 13.3ppg.
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/what-are-the-lowest-scoring-offenses-in-nfl-history-in-a-season-since-1970
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
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I hope they dont score another TD this season
On Nov. 26 showtime wrote that however this Patriots ordeal shakes out that he will be fine basking in the riches of the Patriots double dynasty.
I thought it was cool that he enjoyed their success so much just like perk and Craig and the rest of you.
I used to think there were too many pats fans on this thread, but now there’s definitely one fewer than there should be.
I really think Eric would want you guys to keep this thread active discussing his beloved Patriots.
And I’m going to keep being myself by reminding you guys once in a while that Andy Reid is still rapidly gaining on Belichick’s winning percentage.
For some reason I just want Reid to catch him so I don’t want Billy boy getting fired. 😆
So with the Niners blowing out the Eagles is basebal21 thinking it would be a much bigger blowout if only Mac Jones was the SF QB?
And yes this is a serious question 🤭
Why would it be a bigger blowout as opposed to someone that could do the same?
Thats not a serious question at all