Official T218 set thread

scooter729 · May 12, 2008 3:52AM

Hey guys,

It seems like at least a few of us have started working on the T-218 set, based on the recent registry activity, and it warrants its own thread here. In my opinion, this is a fantastic and undervalued set. With 153 cards, it presents an obtainable number to work on getting a complete set which is nearly 100 years old, can be completed in decent shape without totally breaking the bank, and contains cards from several different sports all in one set.

I'll start it off with a question: which sports in general are toughest within the set? For instance, I know on average the boxing cards sell for more than the track and field. But what about the other cards included?

So how would you order the value / difficulty of the various categories in this set? The main categories are:
Golfers
Billiards
Aviators
Boxers
Track and field

I'm curious to see everyone's thoughts (including Griffins, king of the registry on this set).

Scott

nam812 · May 12, 2008 4:21AM

Nice going Scott, I've thought about starting this thread many time since I began working on my graded T218 set in January. Hopefully there will be plenty of interest, and it will never be off of page 1.

Griffins · May 12, 2008 4:49AM

about time!
This is one of my all time favorite sets, great color and a good selection of interesting subjects.
I'm just getting ready to list my second set on ebay, but will scan a few cards from my main set once I get done.
Anyone have any empty packs? I've got a Mecca but am looking for the other 2.

Elemenopeo · May 12, 2008 5:16AM

I was just telling Scott in a PM that I also thought of starting a thread like this last week, and even started on the first post, but it dawned on me that such a thread may create more interested parties to have to bid against... So, I scrapped it.

But now that it's here, I'm sure I'll enjoy it and contribute more posts and scans than what's appropriate.

nam812 · May 12, 2008 5:24AM

<< ...So how would you order the value / difficulty of the various categories in this set?... >>

When you say difficulty, do you mean as in acquiring them, or what PSA deems more worthy as per the grade weight? Here are some interesting numbers in regards to grade weight. I only say interesting because i think this is mainly thought of as a boxing set.

Only 2 boxers are weighted more than a 1 - James Jerrfries (2 cards each weighted a 9) and Jack Johnson (2 cards each weighted a 10)
ALL the aviators are weighted a 5
ALL the golfers, ALL the billiard players, and ALL the bowlers are weighted a 4
Of the MANY track stars and aquatics, only Edward Payson Weston (the walker) and Joseph Jordan (roller skater) are weighted a 5.
EVERY other track star and aquatic is weighted a 1

scooter729 · May 12, 2008 5:36AM

<< 

<< ...So how would you order the value / difficulty of the various categories in this set?... >>

When you say difficulty, do you mean as in acquiring them, or what PSA deems more worthy as per the grade weight? Here are some interesting numbers in regards to grade weight. I only say interesting because i think this is mainly thought of as a boxing set.

Only 2 boxers are weighted more than a 1 - James Jerrfries (2 cards each weighted a 9) and Jack Johnson (2 cards each weighted a 10)
ALL the aviators are weighted a 5
ALL the golfers, ALL the billiard players, and ALL the bowlers are weighted a 4
Of the MANY track stars and aquatics, only Edward Payson Weston (the walker) and Joseph Jordan (roller skater) are weighted a 5.
EVERY other track star and aquatic is weighted a 1 >>

This is interesting; I think the grade weight is off on this set. For instance, Joseph Jordan will cost the same as a track star, while certain billiards players (Hoppe) will demand a premium over others.

And to classify almost all boxers as only a 1 when the aviators are a 5 seems like an injustice. Boxers like Ketchell, Attell and Gans certainly deserve to be higher than a grade weight of 1.

nam812 · May 12, 2008 5:40AM

<< And to classify almost all boxers as only a 1 when the aviators are a 5 seems like an injustice. Boxers like Ketchell, Attell and Gans certainly deserve to be higher than a grade weight of 1. >>

Exactly.

nam812 · May 12, 2008 6:26AM

The guys I know of that are actively working on this set from these boards are:
myself
Griffins (Anthony with 2 complete sets)
scooter729 (Scott)
Elemenopeo (Bryon)
isellhomeszach (Zach)

All great guys, but to be a moderately active thread (like I hope it will be) we will need others to join in/add to the fun/knowledge. To hopefully entice any lurkers to say hi, I will post a few of my favorite cards in my set so far.

perkdog · May 12, 2008 6:33AM

Very Nice cards Nick, this set is kinda like a pre 1933 Sport Kings set.

Griffins · May 12, 2008 7:27AM

I don't disagree with you that the weighting is off (I think weighting is stupid to begin with) but for this set, once you get past a few cards, it really comes down to the available pop of the card. And you can't weight by pop since those change all the time.
The square framed cards are a bit of a condition rarity, and I doubt that will be affected by changing pops.
Lastly, the backs play into the scarcity a bit- anything with a Tolstoi back should be considered a lot scarcer.
Here's a recent thread on another board

T218 Tolstoi'

Elemenopeo · May 12, 2008 9:19AM

That Young Nitchie has almost a three-dimensional quality, doesn't it?

My favorite card in the set, and I doubt that I could sufficiently explain why, is probably bowler Glenn Riddell, of which I have yet to acquire a graded or gradeable copy.

As for the graded cards I have, I'm probaly most fond of these three...

mkg809 · May 12, 2008 9:28AM

You have piqued my curiosity. Anything with bowling I'm game for.
I'll start with the bowlers and go from there.
How many bowlers in the set?

Elemenopeo · May 12, 2008 9:36AM

I believe there are four bowlers: Alex Dunbar, William Heins, Lee Johns and Glenn Riddell.

nam812 · May 12, 2008 10:04AM

Bryon, that Summers is crystal clear. Also, if that Cutler is only a PSA 5, then I am the Sultan of Brunei.

mkg809 · May 12, 2008 10:14AM

I believe there are four bowlers: Alex Dunbar, William Heins, Lee Johns and Glenn Riddell.

Thanks, I shall begin the search!

Elemenopeo · May 12, 2008 10:14AM

Yeah, I gotta re-sub that Cutler at some point.

nam812 · May 12, 2008 10:32AM

Speaking of re-subs, I have to try to re sub this sharp PSA 4 when i get the chance. I've gone over it again and again, and it can't be the centering that keeps it in a PSA 4 holder.

qualitycards · May 13, 2008 2:18AM

Nick check the back to see if there are any wrinkles or creases.
Flicker the card slowly and see if any show up.
If not its way too nice to be a 4

Stingray · May 13, 2008 2:35AM

LINK

For all you T-218 collectors, just saw this on Ebay.

NickM · May 13, 2008 2:50AM

I'm working on this set too, mainly in raw.

Nick

scooter729 · May 13, 2008 2:54AM

<< LINK

For all you T-218 collectors, just saw this on Ebay. >>

This set is great; to think, this is the lesser of his two completely graded sets! Impressive!

Griffins · May 13, 2008 7:09AM

Thanks for posting it, I wasn't going to pimp it here but appreciate it being pointed out. At this point I don't think there are many upgrades left to my main set (the best all time set isn't on the registry) and since the 2nd set is complete thought it was time to sell it and clear some space. I priced it below vcp averages so hopefully it will find a new home, if not I may upgrade it just for fun.
I've also got about 100 different raw ones that are good- vg ($300) that I'll list as soon as I get a chance if anyone is interested.

Back to the cards themselves!
For MKG809, here's the bowlers-

And while they are cool, nothing beats the aviators. This was only 7 years after the Wright Brothers flight, these guys are the original extreme sportsman

This guy is just a bit creepy, in the Jeffrey Dahmer vein

And this is the coolest card in the set, other than the aviators. Looks like a good guy to hang out in a pub with drinking Guinness- or the grumpy guy who beats kids for playing on his lawn!

Griffins · May 13, 2008 7:16AM

And while we're at it, some of the T218's are the same artwork as the T9 set, just colored differently.

Blackborder · May 13, 2008 8:30AM

Love the set! I keep telling myself to start one but never get around to it. One of the best pre-war sets of any type, no doubt.

Edit to add: PSA needs to man up and make a correctly sized holder.

nam812 · May 13, 2008 11:39PM

The Edward P. Weston card is one of my favorites as well. If you read his write up on the reverse it says that he was a professional walker (which I find pretty funny). "Edward Payson Weston is probably the greatest pedestrian that ever lived" is how it starts. I wont write out the whole biography, but one of the highlights is that at age 71, which is his age in the picture on the front of the card, he walked from Los Angeles to New York (3600 miles) in 78 days. The even funnier thing is that this professional walker is weighted a 5 in the set, and a boxer like Joe Gans is weighted a 1.

qualitycards · May 14, 2008 10:39AM

<< And while they are cool, nothing beats the aviators. This was only 7 years after the Wright Brothers flight, these guys are the original extreme sportsman >>

Johnstone died a bit after his card was made via an aviation accident

1966CUDA · May 15, 2008 4:42AM

What about back variations. I know there are a few different backs and I believe the Tolstoi backs are pretty tuff. Also, looking at the ones I have aquired, there are also different factories listed on the reverses of some of them in small print at the bottom....are any of the factories tuffer than others.

-claude

hankcaddy · May 15, 2008 5:18AM

guys keep posting photos
these are very cool, incredible colors

hank

Griffins · May 15, 2008 5:24AM

I've found the distribution between Hassan and Mecca backs to be pretty even. Adam Warshaws excellent reference guide "America's Great Boxing Cards" states Mecca is more common than Hassan, by about a 55:45 ratio. Hassans tend to run a bit narrower as well, not uncommon in sets with different branding, most notably T206 American Beauty.
Tolstoi's are really tough, roughly 500-1 for the other brands according to most accounts. And I'm pretty sure the entire set has not even been found with Tolstoi backs. I've got 3 in my set, all lower grade. While I don't collect by back on this set the Tolstoi's are tough enough to warrant hanging on to one when you see it.
Never paid much attention to the factory designations, but will go thru my sets and singles and see if there is any interesting info to be found. From Adam's research it doesn't seem like there are any great rarities like there are in T206- all Mecca's and Hassan's are either Factory 649 or 30, all Tolstoi's are Factory 30 only.

scooter729 · May 15, 2008 9:21AM

Great info on the backs; thanks for sharing.

I was aware of the three main backs, but had never looked into factory issuers on these cards at all. I'll take a peek now as well...

bigfische · May 15, 2008 10:21AM

I am working on boxers only for now in mid-low grade raw. I might go after all of it eventually, but for now the boxers are my focus.

So, anyone have any low grade raw boxers for sale?

Griffins · May 15, 2008 12:30PM

I've got about 100 different T218's, mostly boxers, I'm about to list for $300. They are probably good- very good.

1966CUDA · May 15, 2008 1:46PM

Anthony- Would you want to sell them to me and save the listing fees on eBay??

-Claude

1966CUDA · May 15, 2008 2:03PM

Only 2 boxers are weighted more than a 1 - James Jerrfries (2 cards each weighted a 9) and Jack Johnson (2 cards each weighted a 10)

Just checked the SGC registry and the weighting seems more realistic. They list just the boxing set and quite a few are weighted more than a 1...pretty much all the HOFers are at least a 2 and several higher than that.

nam812 · May 16, 2008 1:57AM

Here are two PSA 6's on ebay (not my listings) that have uncharacteristically high bids.

PSA 6 Mellody

PSA 6 Papke

Griffins · May 16, 2008 2:00AM

Those seem abnormally high, given the pops.

Elemenopeo · May 16, 2008 2:05AM

Out of curiosity, I went through the 82 cards I have to check how the different backs break down... There were 46 Mecca with Factory No. 649, 14 Mecca with Factory No. 30, 13 Hassan with Factory No. 649, and 9 Hassan with Factory No. 30.

Also, I recently sold off a couple large lots of lower grade raw cards, but I held onto an S.P. Gilles because I noticed it had a variation from all the other Gilleses I've seen... His name is spelled Gillis on the back. No big whoop, obviously, but I suppose it's worth noting.

Elemenopeo · May 16, 2008 2:09AM

<< Here are two PSA 6's on ebay (not my listings) that have uncharacteristically high bids.

PSA 6 Mellody

PSA 6 Papke >>

That IS weird... and worrisome. See, I knew this thread was a bad idea!

nam812 · May 16, 2008 2:25AM

I'm not going to go through my graded cards, but I went through the 87 raw cards I have (good/very good condition), and here is the brand/factory breakdown:

34 Mecca with Factory No. 649, 21 Mecca with Factory No. 30, 22 Hassan with Factory No. 649, and 10 Hassan with Factory No. 30.

Griffins · May 16, 2008 2:53AM

Dammit! A variation! Just when I thought my set was complete......
Nice catch Elemeno.

Elemenopeo · May 16, 2008 6:41AM

Picked up this crumb that fell off Anthony's table. Arrived in today's mail and was immediately placed in the to-be-re-subbed pile. Looks like a 7 to me all day.

Thanks, Anthony!

2dueces · May 17, 2008 12:02AM

Sweet card. Very nice pick up.

nam812 · May 17, 2008 12:57AM

Very nice card Bryon. Anthony's table sure does have some delicious crumbs. Here's one of those delicious crumbs that I was able to pick up from Anthony a few months ago when I started my set. Like your Walter Lee card, I feel this card is also under graded.

scooter729 · May 17, 2008 1:04AM

<< Picked up this crumb that fell off Anthony's table. Arrived in today's mail and was immediately placed in the to-be-re-subbed pile. Looks like a 7 to me all day.

Thanks, Anthony!

>>

One of the best looking 6's you'll see from this set! That should DEFINITELY get at least a half-point bump!

Griffins · May 17, 2008 1:45AM

Damn, that guy is selling some nice stuff! And those were rejected from the set he has for sale, must be a bargain

nam812 · May 17, 2008 2:03AM

Anthony, just as a heads up, some of the pictures in your 2nd set are not displaying the right card. Of the few I tried, Harry Lewis shows as Arch Hoxsey, MJ McGrath shows as James Jeffries arms folded, and a few others too. Criss crossed pictures notwithstanding, it is quite an impressive set.

Elemenopeo · May 17, 2008 3:58AM

That IS a nice Rector, Nick.

And looking at that got me to thinking about whether there was any rhyme or reason to which cards in the set have the thin black frame around the image and which ones don't. Well, some Mecca-back cards have the phrase "Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter Series" on the back, while others instead say, "Series of Champion Athletes" or "Series of Champion Golfers" or "Series of Champion Bowlers," etc. The general rule seems to be that all the "Series of... " cards have the black frame and vice versa. I did find one exception to that, though, on Edward Payson Weston. He's a "Series of..." guy, but no black frame.

The Hassan-back cards don't include a "series" phrase at all.. and what's particularly interesting is that none of my Hassan cards have the black frame. That makes me wonder if any exist or, if they do, if they're particularly rare.

Anyone have a Hassan back with a black-framed image?

nam812 · May 17, 2008 4:22AM

Something interesting about the Jack Johnson side face card is that the Hassan version front is upside down to the Mecca version front while both backs remain the same top to bottom. Here is what I mean:

nam812 · May 17, 2008 11:22AM

Another "back oddity" I have found is that when comparing the backs of the two James Jeffries cards, the fighting version shows more fight dates than the arms folded version, and the arms folded version shows some dates not even shown on the fighting version.

Also, both cards show the 20 round draw with Gus Ruhlin, but the fighting version (on the left) says it was on July 16th and the arms folded version (on the right) says it was on July 17th. Here are scans of the backs of both.

Edited to add: The fighting version (on the left) says the Nov 15th 1901 fight went 15 rounds, but the arms folded version (on the right) says it went only 5 rounds.

fandango · May 17, 2008 12:20PM

griffins, you selling your set, with a RJROOP BOX? are you crazy? those ROOP BOXES ARE PRICELESS!!!!!

Griffins · May 17, 2008 1:44PM

Fandango, Roop boxes aren't hard to find if you go to the source. You just need to hit their minimum. Roop didn't manufacture anything themselves, they just bought it from the source and marked it up.

Official T218 set thread

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