Official T218 set thread

scooter729

Hey guys,

It seems like at least a few of us have started working on the T-218 set, based on the recent registry activity, and it warrants its own thread here. In my opinion, this is a fantastic and undervalued set. With 153 cards, it presents an obtainable number to work on getting a complete set which is nearly 100 years old, can be completed in decent shape without totally breaking the bank, and contains cards from several different sports all in one set.

I'll start it off with a question: which sports in general are toughest within the set? For instance, I know on average the boxing cards sell for more than the track and field. But what about the other cards included?

So how would you order the value / difficulty of the various categories in this set? The main categories are:
Golfers
Billiards
Aviators
Boxers
Track and field

I'm curious to see everyone's thoughts (including Griffins, king of the registry on this set).

Scott

nam812

Nice going Scott, I've thought about starting this thread many time since I began working on my graded T218 set in January. Hopefully there will be plenty of interest, and it will never be off of page 1.

Griffins

about time!
This is one of my all time favorite sets, great color and a good selection of interesting subjects.
I'm just getting ready to list my second set on ebay, but will scan a few cards from my main set once I get done.
Anyone have any empty packs? I've got a Mecca but am looking for the other 2.

Elemenopeo

I was just telling Scott in a PM that I also thought of starting a thread like this last week, and even started on the first post, but it dawned on me that such a thread may create more interested parties to have to bid against... So, I scrapped it. But now that it's here, I'm sure I'll enjoy it and contribute more posts and scans than what's appropriate.

nam812

<< <i>...So how would you order the value / difficulty of the various categories in this set?... >>



When you say difficulty, do you mean as in acquiring them, or what PSA deems more worthy as per the grade weight? Here are some interesting numbers in regards to grade weight. I only say interesting because i think this is mainly thought of as a boxing set.

Only 2 boxers are weighted more than a 1 - James Jerrfries (2 cards each weighted a 9) and Jack Johnson (2 cards each weighted a 10)
ALL the aviators are weighted a 5
ALL the golfers, ALL the billiard players, and ALL the bowlers are weighted a 4
Of the MANY track stars and aquatics, only Edward Payson Weston (the walker) and Joseph Jordan (roller skater) are weighted a 5.
EVERY other track star and aquatic is weighted a 1

scooter729

<< <i>

<< <i>...So how would you order the value / difficulty of the various categories in this set?... >>



When you say difficulty, do you mean as in acquiring them, or what PSA deems more worthy as per the grade weight? Here are some interesting numbers in regards to grade weight. I only say interesting because i think this is mainly thought of as a boxing set.

Only 2 boxers are weighted more than a 1 - James Jerrfries (2 cards each weighted a 9) and Jack Johnson (2 cards each weighted a 10)
ALL the aviators are weighted a 5
ALL the golfers, ALL the billiard players, and ALL the bowlers are weighted a 4
Of the MANY track stars and aquatics, only Edward Payson Weston (the walker) and Joseph Jordan (roller skater) are weighted a 5.
EVERY other track star and aquatic is weighted a 1 >>



This is interesting; I think the grade weight is off on this set. For instance, Joseph Jordan will cost the same as a track star, while certain billiards players (Hoppe) will demand a premium over others.

And to classify almost all boxers as only a 1 when the aviators are a 5 seems like an injustice. Boxers like Ketchell, Attell and Gans certainly deserve to be higher than a grade weight of 1.

nam812

<< <i>And to classify almost all boxers as only a 1 when the aviators are a 5 seems like an injustice. Boxers like Ketchell, Attell and Gans certainly deserve to be higher than a grade weight of 1. >>



Exactly.

nam812

The guys I know of that are actively working on this set from these boards are:
myself
Griffins (Anthony with 2 complete sets)
scooter729 (Scott)
Elemenopeo (Bryon)
isellhomeszach (Zach)

All great guys, but to be a moderately active thread (like I hope it will be) we will need others to join in/add to the fun/knowledge. To hopefully entice any lurkers to say hi, I will post a few of my favorite cards in my set so far.

perkdog

Very Nice cards Nick, this set is kinda like a pre 1933 Sport Kings set.

Griffins

I don't disagree with you that the weighting is off (I think weighting is stupid to begin with) but for this set, once you get past a few cards, it really comes down to the available pop of the card. And you can't weight by pop since those change all the time.
The square framed cards are a bit of a condition rarity, and I doubt that will be affected by changing pops.
Lastly, the backs play into the scarcity a bit- anything with a Tolstoi back should be considered a lot scarcer.
Here's a recent thread on another board

T218 Tolstoi'

Elemenopeo

That Young Nitchie has almost a three-dimensional quality, doesn't it?

My favorite card in the set, and I doubt that I could sufficiently explain why, is probably bowler Glenn Riddell, of which I have yet to acquire a graded or gradeable copy.





As for the graded cards I have, I'm probaly most fond of these three...

mkg809

You have piqued my curiosity. Anything with bowling I'm game for.
I'll start with the bowlers and go from there.
How many bowlers in the set?

Elemenopeo

I believe there are four bowlers: Alex Dunbar, William Heins, Lee Johns and Glenn Riddell.

nam812

Bryon, that Summers is crystal clear. Also, if that Cutler is only a PSA 5, then I am the Sultan of Brunei.

mkg809

I believe there are four bowlers: Alex Dunbar, William Heins, Lee Johns and Glenn Riddell.


Thanks, I shall begin the search!

Elemenopeo

Yeah, I gotta re-sub that Cutler at some point.

nam812

Speaking of re-subs, I have to try to re sub this sharp PSA 4 when i get the chance. I've gone over it again and again, and it can't be the centering that keeps it in a PSA 4 holder.

qualitycards

Nick check the back to see if there are any wrinkles or creases.
Flicker the card slowly and see if any show up.
If not its way too nice to be a 4

Stingray

LINK

For all you T-218 collectors, just saw this on Ebay.

NickM

I'm working on this set too, mainly in raw.

Nick

scooter729

<< <i>LINK

For all you T-218 collectors, just saw this on Ebay. >>



This set is great; to think, this is the lesser of his two completely graded sets! Impressive!

Griffins

Thanks for posting it, I wasn't going to pimp it here but appreciate it being pointed out. At this point I don't think there are many upgrades left to my main set (the best all time set isn't on the registry) and since the 2nd set is complete thought it was time to sell it and clear some space. I priced it below vcp averages so hopefully it will find a new home, if not I may upgrade it just for fun.
I've also got about 100 different raw ones that are good- vg ($300) that I'll list as soon as I get a chance if anyone is interested.

Back to the cards themselves!
For MKG809, here's the bowlers-



And while they are cool, nothing beats the aviators. This was only 7 years after the Wright Brothers flight, these guys are the original extreme sportsman




This guy is just a bit creepy, in the Jeffrey Dahmer vein


And this is the coolest card in the set, other than the aviators. Looks like a good guy to hang out in a pub with drinking Guinness- or the grumpy guy who beats kids for playing on his lawn!

Griffins

And while we're at it, some of the T218's are the same artwork as the T9 set, just colored differently.

Blackborder

Love the set! I keep telling myself to start one but never get around to it. One of the best pre-war sets of any type, no doubt.

Edit to add: PSA needs to man up and make a correctly sized holder.

nam812

The Edward P. Weston card is one of my favorites as well. If you read his write up on the reverse it says that he was a professional walker (which I find pretty funny). "Edward Payson Weston is probably the greatest pedestrian that ever lived" is how it starts. I wont write out the whole biography, but one of the highlights is that at age 71, which is his age in the picture on the front of the card, he walked from Los Angeles to New York (3600 miles) in 78 days. The even funnier thing is that this professional walker is weighted a 5 in the set, and a boxer like Joe Gans is weighted a 1.

qualitycards

<< <i>And while they are cool, nothing beats the aviators. This was only 7 years after the Wright Brothers flight, these guys are the original extreme sportsman >>


Johnstone died a bit after his card was made via an aviation accident

1966CUDA

What about back variations. I know there are a few different backs and I believe the Tolstoi backs are pretty tuff. Also, looking at the ones I have aquired, there are also different factories listed on the reverses of some of them in small print at the bottom....are any of the factories tuffer than others.

-claude

hankcaddy

guys keep posting photos
these are very cool, incredible colors

hank

Griffins

I've found the distribution between Hassan and Mecca backs to be pretty even. Adam Warshaws excellent reference guide "America's Great Boxing Cards" states Mecca is more common than Hassan, by about a 55:45 ratio. Hassans tend to run a bit narrower as well, not uncommon in sets with different branding, most notably T206 American Beauty.
Tolstoi's are really tough, roughly 500-1 for the other brands according to most accounts. And I'm pretty sure the entire set has not even been found with Tolstoi backs. I've got 3 in my set, all lower grade. While I don't collect by back on this set the Tolstoi's are tough enough to warrant hanging on to one when you see it.
Never paid much attention to the factory designations, but will go thru my sets and singles and see if there is any interesting info to be found. From Adam's research it doesn't seem like there are any great rarities like there are in T206- all Mecca's and Hassan's are either Factory 649 or 30, all Tolstoi's are Factory 30 only.

scooter729

Great info on the backs; thanks for sharing.

I was aware of the three main backs, but had never looked into factory issuers on these cards at all. I'll take a peek now as well...

bigfische

I am working on boxers only for now in mid-low grade raw. I might go after all of it eventually, but for now the boxers are my focus.


So, anyone have any low grade raw boxers for sale?

Griffins

I've got about 100 different T218's, mostly boxers, I'm about to list for $300. They are probably good- very good.

1966CUDA

Anthony- Would you want to sell them to me and save the listing fees on eBay??

-Claude

1966CUDA

Only 2 boxers are weighted more than a 1 - James Jerrfries (2 cards each weighted a 9) and Jack Johnson (2 cards each weighted a 10)

Just checked the SGC registry and the weighting seems more realistic. They list just the boxing set and quite a few are weighted more than a 1...pretty much all the HOFers are at least a 2 and several higher than that.

nam812

Here are two PSA 6's on ebay (not my listings) that have uncharacteristically high bids.

PSA 6 Mellody

PSA 6 Papke

Griffins

Those seem abnormally high, given the pops.

Elemenopeo

Out of curiosity, I went through the 82 cards I have to check how the different backs break down... There were 46 Mecca with Factory No. 649, 14 Mecca with Factory No. 30, 13 Hassan with Factory No. 649, and 9 Hassan with Factory No. 30.

Also, I recently sold off a couple large lots of lower grade raw cards, but I held onto an S.P. Gilles because I noticed it had a variation from all the other Gilleses I've seen... His name is spelled Gillis on the back. No big whoop, obviously, but I suppose it's worth noting.

Elemenopeo

<< <i>Here are two PSA 6's on ebay (not my listings) that have uncharacteristically high bids.

PSA 6 Mellody

PSA 6 Papke >>


That IS weird... and worrisome. See, I knew this thread was a bad idea!

nam812

I'm not going to go through my graded cards, but I went through the 87 raw cards I have (good/very good condition), and here is the brand/factory breakdown:

34 Mecca with Factory No. 649, 21 Mecca with Factory No. 30, 22 Hassan with Factory No. 649, and 10 Hassan with Factory No. 30.

Griffins

Dammit! A variation! Just when I thought my set was complete......
Nice catch Elemeno.

Elemenopeo

Picked up this crumb that fell off Anthony's table. Arrived in today's mail and was immediately placed in the to-be-re-subbed pile. Looks like a 7 to me all day.

Thanks, Anthony!

2dueces

Sweet card. Very nice pick up.

nam812

Very nice card Bryon. Anthony's table sure does have some delicious crumbs. Here's one of those delicious crumbs that I was able to pick up from Anthony a few months ago when I started my set. Like your Walter Lee card, I feel this card is also under graded.

scooter729

<< <i>Picked up this crumb that fell off Anthony's table. Arrived in today's mail and was immediately placed in the to-be-re-subbed pile. Looks like a 7 to me all day.

Thanks, Anthony!


>>



One of the best looking 6's you'll see from this set! That should DEFINITELY get at least a half-point bump!

Griffins

Damn, that guy is selling some nice stuff! And those were rejected from the set he has for sale, must be a bargain

nam812

Anthony, just as a heads up, some of the pictures in your 2nd set are not displaying the right card. Of the few I tried, Harry Lewis shows as Arch Hoxsey, MJ McGrath shows as James Jeffries arms folded, and a few others too. Criss crossed pictures notwithstanding, it is quite an impressive set.

Elemenopeo

That IS a nice Rector, Nick.

And looking at that got me to thinking about whether there was any rhyme or reason to which cards in the set have the thin black frame around the image and which ones don't. Well, some Mecca-back cards have the phrase "Champion Athlete and Prize Fighter Series" on the back, while others instead say, "Series of Champion Athletes" or "Series of Champion Golfers" or "Series of Champion Bowlers," etc. The general rule seems to be that all the "Series of... " cards have the black frame and vice versa. I did find one exception to that, though, on Edward Payson Weston. He's a "Series of..." guy, but no black frame.

The Hassan-back cards don't include a "series" phrase at all.. and what's particularly interesting is that none of my Hassan cards have the black frame. That makes me wonder if any exist or, if they do, if they're particularly rare.

Anyone have a Hassan back with a black-framed image?

nam812

Something interesting about the Jack Johnson side face card is that the Hassan version front is upside down to the Mecca version front while both backs remain the same top to bottom. Here is what I mean:

nam812

Another "back oddity" I have found is that when comparing the backs of the two James Jeffries cards, the fighting version shows more fight dates than the arms folded version, and the arms folded version shows some dates not even shown on the fighting version.

Also, both cards show the 20 round draw with Gus Ruhlin, but the fighting version (on the left) says it was on July 16th and the arms folded version (on the right) says it was on July 17th. Here are scans of the backs of both.

Edited to add: The fighting version (on the left) says the Nov 15th 1901 fight went 15 rounds, but the arms folded version (on the right) says it went only 5 rounds.

fandango

griffins, you selling your set, with a RJROOP BOX? are you crazy? those ROOP BOXES ARE PRICELESS!!!!!

Griffins

Fandango, Roop boxes aren't hard to find if you go to the source. You just need to hit their minimum. Roop didn't manufacture anything themselves, they just bought it from the source and marked it up.