There probably are way more people out there trying to manufacture them than there were in the 60's,70's,80's.
Beyond that, I will always think the appreciation of toning (not the marketing, or assigned value) is subjective. And whether you think it's pretty or damage is about the same as whether you agree that Barbra Striesand's nose enhances her face or is ugly.
Puff, seeing as how I'd hate for you to defile your collection with that disgusting hunk of silver, feel free to send it to me. I will keep its previous owner secret....
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
At least Barbra's nose is NN. Now, for Michael Jackson, I can't say the same for that AN...
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Is it inappropriate to live within 10 miles of a sulfur mine? How about a household where everyone smokes? Is a coin toned over 6 months NT while a coin toned over 5 months AT? How about if a coin is heavily oxidized over a few weeks, then lightly toned over a few years? Your definition is undefined, but don't feel bad NO ONE can come up with a rational definition. AT is chemically identical to NT, the only difference is the intent of the owner.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
<< <i>Puff, seeing as how I'd hate for you to defile your collection with that disgusting hunk of silver, feel free to send it to me. I will keep its previous owner secret....
Fair questions. For starters, let's delete "short term" and "long term" from the definition:
Artificial toning is the patina caused by exposure to materials and conditions known to be inappropriate in the storage of coins.
"Inappropriate" is more challenging. Let's think about it...
Finally, regarding the comment And, I think your definition, while not a bad attempt, still involves "intent", as you say "known to be inappropriate".
A coin accidentally dropped in a bucket of Clorox is artificially toned without intent. Unless, of course, you believe a bucket of Clorox to be an appropriate place to store coins.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Point of order, Clorox bleach doesn't tone silver coins. Only products containing sulphur have that ability. Silver is unaffected by halogens such as chlorine and will not react with them.
If that puppy dog wasn't so cute, I'd REALLY let you have it...........
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
Your right IWOG, some people can't handle the truth. AT or NT does it really matter, cooking coin, letting it sit sunlight, does it really matter how it turned to funky colors, color is color to me. Who's to say letting a coin sit out in the sun for a year our in some moist drawer is any different than baking a coin for few minutes in some oven. I love it how some people claim they can tell, but to me it doesn't matter. You read how people submit coins straight from mint packing come back not holdered due to AT. I just don't like them. But to each there own, that's what makes coins great....variety
<< <i>And, I think your definition, while not a bad attempt, still involves "intent", as you say "known to be inappropriate". Known by others? Known by the person who is AT(ing) the coin? >>
I have a golden toned 1999 SAE in a PCI holder that says MS 67 White.
I figure that the person who had it slabbed when it was blast white didn't know it was an innapropriate storage method that would lead to the toning. So that makes it NT.
However, I bought it 6 months ago knowing it to be an innapropriate method to store the coin and a method that will lead to more toning. I am leaving the coin in the holder. So that makes it AT.
AT/NT, let's call the whole thing off.
Time sure flies when you don't know what you are doing...
<< <i>Your right IWOG, some people can't handle the truth. AT or NT does it really matter, cooking coin, letting it sit sunlight, does it really matter how it turned to funky colors, color is color to me. Who's to say letting a coin sit out in the sun for a year our in some moist drawer is any different than baking a coin for few minutes in some oven. I love it how some people claim they can tell, but to me it doesn't matter. You read how people submit coins straight from mint packing come back not holdered due to AT. I just don't like them. But to each there own, that's what makes coins great....variety >>
We hold these truths to be self evident.........
No wait we really don't. Only self-evident if they come from IWOG. Interesting you say to each his own proceeded by a statement that some of us can't handle the truth. Do you think the rest of us are just in denial, stupid, fixated, adamant or all of the above. Or is that the only opinion that could possibly be taken seriously is yours or IWOG. Or one last possibility, one too many Tom Cruise movies.
Now to get my tongue out of my cheek. Like others I must of been dreaming when I saw, owned and sold all of those AT'd Morgans back in the 60's, 70's and 80's. Whew all that money I lost must of been a dream too. Glad to finally see the truth, I can relax now knowing that I really didn't pi$$ all that dough.
Ah, a wonderful story, Iwog!! I'm afraid, though, that you'll have to include me among the ranks of those who have learned to discount conspiracy theories, especially where less spectacular and more common phenomema explain the facts as well (or better), thus satisfying Occam's razor. No one has such control -- they only wish! -- over the purchasing habits of so many people. Madison Avenue would kill for access to such a secret. (Using sex appeal to sell is the closest they have come.)
In fact, it's the simple nature of fads. They come, surge spectacularly, and then ebb away, sometimes to be forgotten altogether ... until, maybe, having been forgotten for so long, they become a fad all over again ("retro"?). It's been a while since I've read Coins or Coinage, but I can remember their having year-end predictions of what coins/themes were going to be "hot" in the new year or they'd make the rounds of well-known dealers asking their opinions. Everybody would like to have a crystal ball so they could buy low and then sell high into the fad. I wasn't collecting back in the 70s and 80s, but I have little doubt that what happened is this. As more and more nice coins were becoming over-dipped and thus bodybagged by the TPGs, a growing interest in and desire for "original surfaces" developed. Naturally toned coins had this and could, of course, be "first-time-dipped" for the desired surface, but some were too beautifully colored to dip and their attractiveness and original surfaces generated increasing interest in them. Thus was a fad born. Sharp dealers found increasing demand for their "back-of-the-vault" fresh material and brought it out; collectors with them began selling them as their prices began to rise. This reinforced the fad. With growing strength in demand, prices began to rise dramatically -- and with more money to be made, "chemically adept" dealers began experimenting with means to hasten the process -- or imitate it -- to improve their margins. Demand being high enough to sustain this doctoring activity encouraged it, as did the growing awareness among other dealers in the marketplace that not all of their new stock needed to be dipped blast-white to sell. Moreover, doggy coins could be moved for their color and for a price higher than they would if blast-white and a couple points higher in grade.
Nothing sinister need have caused the development of this new fashion of collecting; there's plenty of room for the money to draw out the sinister all by itself. There is another side of all this that rarely gets addressed here on the Liteside, though. Toning is a natural process; it doesn't necessarily stop when the "presentation" is most desirable. As time goes by, all of these coins will continue to oxidize -- more or less slowly depending on their ambient environment -- but for silver coins, the progress will ineluctably continue toward browns, greys, violets and always in the end, black. Any ancient or medieval coin you see with luster has been "conserved." The same fate awaits your most wonderfully toned Morgan. So, please enjoy it while it's in your appreciative hands during its "glory days" and, if you're investing in them, don't sit on your stock all that long. (For an entertaining Darkside commentary on this thread and some of the "rust" problems our members face, please check out this thread. We'll leave the Darklights on for ya'. )
<< <i>I wouldnt call the Clorox job toning, I would call it schmutz. >>
Whatever you want to call it...toning, schmutz, or dipped in bear poop , I wouldn't call it unreactive!
I could actually watch it goe through the color change. It happened that fast. Yellow to purple basically (and it looked like it went from the rim in). Had I known it would be that fast, I would have stopped it earlier!
Time sure flies when you don't know what you are doing...
Still some cartwheel to it but it is dulled up quite a bit because the color is so dar. The toning is rather flat in color until you tilt it just right and then you can see blue, purple, yellow and even a little green.
Edited to add: I don't think this example would fool people in person. However, if you have some clorox and a bullion silver coin laying around and haven't seen it before (like I hadn't), I think it is worth taking a look at.
Time sure flies when you don't know what you are doing...
I am not an expert in this area, as I usually don't collect toned coins. All I know is that I laugh when I see "experts" claim that a coins is clearly original or something. I once took a Morgan $, laid it upside down on a piece of cardboard and put in in the sun. After some time had passed, the front was completely toned - Most people (collectors of toned coins) I showed it to told me what a neat, original coin it was!
I think I am lucky, as I actually prefer the looks of blast-white coins to all these "super monster" rainbow coins that simply didn't seem to exist in the recent past and are now "original" anyways.
JJacks
Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
Maybe I'm wrong, but I believe if you posted a picture of a MINT STATE Bust or Seated Half toned that color on here and posted "Look what I just got" People would ooh and aah over it?
No special methods of AT -vs- NT for me, I go with my "gut instincts" coin by coin, nothing I can point to in a book or a auction catolog. If a coins luster is full and the color doesn't look like Picaso painted it on the coin and the price is imo fair then I will probably buy it. My icon coin is a good example of what my gut instincts are.
Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
Point of order, Clorox bleach doesn't tone silver coins. Only products containing sulphur have that ability. Silver is unaffected by halogens such as chlorine and will not react with them.
Well, if by "tone" maybe we mean a silver-sulfer compound, then ok. Bleach has no sulfer.
But silver (Ag+) will react with the halogen group elements (for example, Cl-) forming a number of silver salts such as AgCl.
As for the larger discussion, I believe Iwog's premises might have some basis of truth as general principles or trends, but become disputable when he launches such absolutes as saying "ALL this..." or "NONE of that..." or "this AWAYS..." or "that NEVER...."
There is a whole spectrum (pun intended) of truth out there, and in the end, each coin must speak for itself, as to it's history and market value.
After reading "all" of the threads here I've come to the conclusion that there are alot of inexperienced collectors here that need alot more educating on what makes a coin "original", wether it be toned or not.
Personally I have been collecting coins for 35 years and I have seen ugly toning, and some of the most gorgeous coins imaginable, and my choice is "originally" toned high mint state graded coins, if they have all of the other attributes, i.e. luster, strike, etcetera.....
When it comes to the end of the day, it's all a personal choice for the individual collector!
Interesting experiment. I don't know why the silver is reacting with the bleach. Sulphur Dioxide is a common bleaching agent, so maybe there's some of it in Clorox. Maybe it's just reacting with the copper. I'm perplexed.
Good job MrEureka, you win. (putting on dunce cap)
Puff, the term "original" doesn't apply to silver coins unless they are blast white and sealed right after they are minted. ANYTHING done to change a coin's appearance including being left in an album for 30 years changes the coin from "original" to "oxidized". A truely original Morgan dollar is blast white, a NON-original Morgan dollar is darkly toned. Lets call a duck a duck.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
"I remember a series of Coin World articles showing people the virtues of colored coins. Back then it wasn't a matter of creating a premium for toned coins, but making them acceptable at all."
Colored coins versus what? A coin that is washed out because someone thought they could removing deep toning and restore the coins original luster? Yes, I'd say I'd much prefer the coin with the toning rather than a washed out coin.
"The scheme? Convince all coin collectors that toned coins are the way to go!!"
Too many episodes of the "X-Files".
"LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before."
The inference of course being that most of these coins are ATed, PCGS and NGC are part of these conspiracies, there are not very good diagnostic to identify ATed coins and most collectors are basically stupid.
"what history or link to the past is there with a three legged buffalo nickel?"
The vast majority of 200, 150 and 100 year old coins are going to have some measure of toning. Many 50 year old coins from original Mint Sets are going to have some measure of toning. It's a factor of time and the period of history these coins were produced in and have survived through. Many collectors don't have an "issue" with embracing those facts and don't feel the need to give these coins a face lift.
I have nothing against blast white coins. I like my modern coins blast white. Why? Because they were minted during a period of time where the technology and means to preserve them in their original blast white condition is readily available. I don't mind my 100 year old coins having some toning. Actually when there is absolutely no toning I start looking for the other signs that the coins been monkeyed with.
"One final note.......luster cannot be added to a coin, toning can."
Was that suppose to be a great revelation. A coin leaves the Mint with it's original "skin" and luster. Reaction with chemicals in the enviroment produce the thin film interference we call toning. But when you dip a coin with light toning you are NOT restoring it's original mint luster. Something of the original coin has been stripped away. Those coins that have been dipped are no more "original" then the coins that though time and happenstance have acquired some toning.
"Toning hides luster, or covers up the fact its destroyed."
I have some wonderfully toned coins with brilliant luster shining through and it is very easy to tell if a coin has any underlying luster through the toning. Toning doesn't cover up destroyed luster. That's more "X-Files" stuff .
"I KNOW you think I'm full of it"
You're a mind reader too .
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Pmh, You really didn't contradict anything I said. (as usual) Instead you posted a bunch of irrelevant silliness.
Examples:
#1 I stated toning hides luster or hides the fact it's gone. (which is ALWAYS true to some extent, no exceptions) The issue of you having a toned coin with visible luster is irrelevant. #2 I never mentioned a conspiracy in anything I said. In fact, I made it a point to explain how marketing works. I guess saying "X-files" over and over again is the extent of your ability to reply. #3 Coins don't have "skin" when they leave the mint. Coins develop a layer of oxidation if exposed to hydrogen sulfide, and eventually turn black. This is the process that strips away silver metal, converting it to a very loosely bonded silver sulfide "skin". Dipping a coin removes this layer leaving the pure silver underneath essentially unaffected. Dipping has nothing to do with restoring luster (straw man argument on your part) although it can expose what luster is left. #4 You quoted my statment about the 3-legged buffalo nickel, then said absolutely nothing about the point I made.....which was only concerned with why people pay lots of money for collectables. I believe your entire reply concerned all old coins being toned or something ridiculous. #5 The first sentence you quoted wasn't addressed at all. Instead you decided to talk about washed out coins, (which incidently were made that way by toning) an entirely different discussion.
Sooooo........your point was what???? Try and be more clear. Here are MY objections aimed directly at what you said:
#1 The inference of course being that most of these coins are ATed, PCGS and NGC are part of these conspiracies, there are not very good diagnostic to identify ATed coins and most collectors are basically stupid.
My inference if you care to read instead of react blindly is that NO ONE can tell good AT coins from NT coins. Only those people who insist you can ALWAYS tell the difference are implying that people who cannot are basically stupid. This is YOUR position and the position of elitist coin snobs, not mine and the ONLY possible reading of your statment is that you consider people stupid if they can't identify an AT coin.
#2 Dipping? Did you mean to introduce dipping into this conversation? No one said anything about dipping coins, this was a post about the toned coin market. Try not to be so emotional that you ignore totally what we're talking about.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
"The issue of you having a toned coin with visible luster is irrelevant."
No it isn't. You can enjoy both toning and luster on the same coin. You don't have to sacrifice one for the other. Check out my lusterous Franklin icon coin.
"I never mentioned a conspiracy in anything I said"
Then you need to use a better choice of words because it was interpreted by myself and others that you were implying a conspiracy.
"Coins don't have "skin" when they leave the mint."
You and everyone else that's been involved in the hobby know exactly what I meant by "skin".
"Coins develop a layer of oxidation if exposed to hydrogen sulfide, and eventually turn black."
The discussion wasn't about coins that are black.
"Dipping a coin removes this layer leaving the pure silver underneath essentially unaffected."
Dipping a coin removes some of the coins original metal (some of it's original skin). A dipped coins is no more original than a toned coin.
"You quoted my statment about the 3-legged buffalo nickel, then said absolutely nothing about the point I made"
Since you missed the point I'll spell it out for you. Whether the history is die polishing by a Mint employee or the toning that is a byproduct of a 100 year passage through time some of us appreciate that history and the evidence of it that is visible on the coin.
"My inference if you care to read instead of react blindly is that NO ONE can tell good AT coins from NT coins"
I wasn't reacting blindly. The inference was that dealers can create a market and that collector just blindly follow their advance. Your first two paragraphs are pretty clear that that was your intention but the first line in your third paragraph makes it perfectly clear.
"The scheme? Convince all coin collectors that toned coins are the way to go!!"
You need to read what you write. Here is another example.
"Dipping? Did you mean to introduce dipping into this conversation? No one said anything about dipping coins"
Who said anything about dipping? You did...
"They would purchase most MS coins as AU, dip them nice, and sell them as Gem or whatever they could convince buyers they were graded at"
Your words Iwog.
"Only those people who insist you can ALWAYS tell the difference are implying that people who cannot are basically stupid."
I never claimed that you can ALWAYS tell if a coin has been ATed but in the vast majority of cases a highly level of certainty can be had with respect to identifying ATed coins. The same is true of coins that have been dipped. In fact, given the right tools you can almost always (I'll not fall into your error of absolutes) identify whether a coin has been dipped. Dipping strips away some of the original metal. Evidence of that alteration may not be obvious to the unaided eye but given enough magnification the changes in flowlines are going to be visible. My guess is with EDS or SEM you could get near 100%.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Pmh, You really have a knack for ignoring the entire issue being discussed.
The amount of luster left on a coin is a good test of how original it is. (how much the original surface has been destroyed) Dipping has nothing to do with this measure, and other than being the primary cause of DAMAGE, toning doesn't either.
By the way, the only sentence you could find where I mentioned dipping was about MARKETING, not dipping coins. It's like trying to debate with a 4 year old who only wants to talk about cookies.
"...reality has a well-known liberal bias." -- Stephen Colbert
"Pmh, You really have a knack for ignoring the entire issue being discussed."
No. I have a knack for pointing out your inconsistencies.
"The amount of luster left on a coin is a good test of how original it is. (how much the original surface has been destroyed) Dipping has nothing to do with this measure, and other than being the primary cause of DAMAGE, toning doesn't either. "
To the degree that dipping removes some of the coins orginal material it absolutely has something to do with this measure.
"By the way, the only sentence you could find where I mentioned dipping was about MARKETING, not dipping coins. It's like trying to debate with a 4 year old who only wants to talk about cookies."
Excuse me, but you said I introduced the subject of dipping into the conversation. Wrong, you did. And since one of the main subjects of the the discussion was the making of markets and the enhancing of the coins themselves or the perception of their value my mention of dipping was right in line with the discussion. So excuse me for point out another of the inconsistencies in your statements.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Good article, with some merit, for those that have the same mind set. I'll take a beautifully toned coin anyday over a comparable white coin. The luster can be affected depending on the environment. But I wouldnt say that all toned coins suffer from impaired luster. I have some beautiful toners, and the luster is superb. There is also the date and mint issue involved with regards to the luster of any given series. If you know your series, you can make a judgement as to originality, and luster ranking.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
I've thought about NJ Coin Crank's reply before I posted this. I still have no idea what he is referring to? Maybe something about walking on all fours, then on two, and then with three? Some mythological riddle I presume refering to the toning of coins.
I think NJcoincrank was saying, that as collectors become educated, they form certain preferences which are often reflected in the marketplace. As collectors become more educated, experienced, sophisticated and knowledgeable, many turn to toned coins, in place of bright, shiny (sometimes) dipped white ones.
And, those who choose not to educate themselves will do a lot of talking, but end up saying nothing (of importance).
Finally, I think he was asking that people read and think, before replying to this thread. This makes me think he was less than impressed with a number of the posts.
The above is merely my own, subjective interpretation of the "Crankster's" comments, though I grudgingly admit to knowing him well and thinking very highly of him.
The above is merely my own, subjective interpretation of the "Crankster's" comments, though I grudgingly admit to knowing him well and thinking very highly of him.
Ditto on all counts, including how I interpreted NJCC's comments herein.
I should add that it is very hard, even for those who make a strenuous effort, to respond in a lengthy and controversial thread such as this with total cogency, clarity of articulation and precision of analysis.
Much of this probably stems from the lack of extreme knowledge that many of the well-intentioned posters possess. There is no way for a collector, even a very well-connected and experienced one, to have the same kind of knowledge that a veteran, well-established and top-notch dealer has.
.Lucy, Brian and Mark all make some good points. I also have a background in metallurgy and engineering. In my opinion number 11 should be:
11. If you don't know the history, you don't know the coin.
I would agree that experience and knowledge contribute significantly to helping determine if a coin is "natural" or AT, but the bottom line is chemistry is chemistry. Oxidation reactions can be reproduced, some easily and others with great difficulty - many can be "accelerated". I suspect that the best coin doctors or "coin artists" can fool the best graders - but does it matter if the result is a beautiful coin? Who is to know in those cases?
I can only speak about copper, but I've seen at least a dozen beautiful Indians where I knew the history of the coin, but it came back in a bodybag. I also know personally of one case of a high grade AT that came back with just that, a high grade. I suspect that eventually the AT/NT debate will die down over time, as more AT'ed coins that are truly works of art come to the market - but I doubt that the toned market will collapse. More collectors will join the hobby, the grading services will limit the number of coins that get slabbed both (NT and AT), and prices will more or less stabilize. The really good coin doctors do not want the market saturated – it will kill their business. I suspect that becoming a really good coin doctor is just as difficult as becoming a good restoration artist, and that must take a lot of time and experience?
So, collectors should continue to educate themselves, take it all with a grain of salt, enjoy the hobby, and protect the newbies from the rip-off artists and sellers of highway intersection "art" from the back of a van. Just my opinion
Comments
The hyping of toning has become ridiculous.
There probably are way more people out there trying to manufacture them than there were in the 60's,70's,80's.
Beyond that, I will always think the appreciation of toning (not the marketing, or assigned value) is subjective. And whether you think it's pretty or damage is about the same as whether you agree that Barbra Striesand's nose enhances her face or is ugly.
Clankeye
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Please define "short term". Please define "inappropriate"
Is it inappropriate to live within 10 miles of a sulfur mine? How about a household where everyone smokes? Is a coin toned over 6 months NT while a coin toned over 5 months AT? How about if a coin is heavily oxidized over a few weeks, then lightly toned over a few years? Your definition is undefined, but don't feel bad NO ONE can come up with a rational definition. AT is chemically identical to NT, the only difference is the intent of the owner.
<< <i>Puff, seeing as how I'd hate for you to defile your collection with that disgusting hunk of silver, feel free to send it to me. I will keep its previous owner secret....
That is one "ugly" Walker!
Fair questions. For starters, let's delete "short term" and "long term" from the definition:
Artificial toning is the patina caused by exposure to materials and conditions known to be inappropriate in the storage of coins.
"Inappropriate" is more challenging. Let's think about it...
Finally, regarding the comment And, I think your definition, while not a bad attempt, still involves "intent", as you say "known to be inappropriate".
A coin accidentally dropped in a bucket of Clorox is artificially toned without intent. Unless, of course, you believe a bucket of Clorox to be an appropriate place to store coins.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
If that puppy dog wasn't so cute, I'd REALLY let you have it...........
<< <i>And, I think your definition, while not a bad attempt, still involves "intent", as you say "known to be inappropriate". Known by others? Known by the person who is AT(ing) the coin? >>
I have a golden toned 1999 SAE in a PCI holder that says MS 67 White.
I figure that the person who had it slabbed when it was blast white didn't know it was an innapropriate storage method that would lead to the toning. So that makes it NT.
However, I bought it 6 months ago knowing it to be an innapropriate method to store the coin and a method that will lead to more toning. I am leaving the coin in the holder. So that makes it AT.
AT/NT, let's call the whole thing off.
CoinPeople.com || CoinWiki.com || NumisLinks.com
Anyone want to show us a "before and after"?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Your right IWOG, some people can't handle the truth. AT or NT does it really matter, cooking coin, letting it sit sunlight, does it really matter how it turned to funky colors, color is color to me. Who's to say letting a coin sit out in the sun for a year our in some moist drawer is any different than baking a coin for few minutes in some oven. I love it how some people claim they can tell, but to me it doesn't matter. You read how people submit coins straight from mint packing come back not holdered due to AT. I just don't like them. But to each there own, that's what makes coins great....variety >>
We hold these truths to be self evident.........
No wait we really don't. Only self-evident if they come from IWOG. Interesting you say to each his own proceeded by a statement that some of us can't handle the truth. Do you think the rest of us are just in denial, stupid, fixated, adamant or all of the above. Or is that the only opinion that could possibly be taken seriously is yours or IWOG. Or one last possibility, one too many Tom Cruise movies.
Now to get my tongue out of my cheek. Like others I must of been dreaming when I saw, owned and sold all of those AT'd Morgans back in the 60's, 70's and 80's. Whew all that money I lost must of been a dream too. Glad to finally see the truth, I can relax now knowing that I really didn't pi$$ all that dough.
In fact, it's the simple nature of fads. They come, surge spectacularly, and then ebb away, sometimes to be forgotten altogether ... until, maybe, having been forgotten for so long, they become a fad all over again ("retro"?). It's been a while since I've read Coins or Coinage, but I can remember their having year-end predictions of what coins/themes were going to be "hot" in the new year or they'd make the rounds of well-known dealers asking their opinions. Everybody would like to have a crystal ball so they could buy low and then sell high into the fad. I wasn't collecting back in the 70s and 80s, but I have little doubt that what happened is this. As more and more nice coins were becoming over-dipped and thus bodybagged by the TPGs, a growing interest in and desire for "original surfaces" developed. Naturally toned coins had this and could, of course, be "first-time-dipped" for the desired surface, but some were too beautifully colored to dip and their attractiveness and original surfaces generated increasing interest in them. Thus was a fad born. Sharp dealers found increasing demand for their "back-of-the-vault" fresh material and brought it out; collectors with them began selling them as their prices began to rise. This reinforced the fad. With growing strength in demand, prices began to rise dramatically -- and with more money to be made, "chemically adept" dealers began experimenting with means to hasten the process -- or imitate it -- to improve their margins. Demand being high enough to sustain this doctoring activity encouraged it, as did the growing awareness among other dealers in the marketplace that not all of their new stock needed to be dipped blast-white to sell. Moreover, doggy coins could be moved for their color and for a price higher than they would if blast-white and a couple points higher in grade.
Nothing sinister need have caused the development of this new fashion of collecting; there's plenty of room for the money to draw out the sinister all by itself. There is another side of all this that rarely gets addressed here on the Liteside, though. Toning is a natural process; it doesn't necessarily stop when the "presentation" is most desirable. As time goes by, all of these coins will continue to oxidize -- more or less slowly depending on their ambient environment -- but for silver coins, the progress will ineluctably continue toward browns, greys, violets and always in the end, black. Any ancient or medieval coin you see with luster has been "conserved." The same fate awaits your most wonderfully toned Morgan. So, please enjoy it while it's in your appreciative hands during its "glory days" and, if you're investing in them, don't sit on your stock all that long.
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
<< <i>Point of order, Clorox bleach doesn't tone silver coins.
Anyone want to show us a "before and after"?
Did this just 5 minutes ago to see what would happen.
About thirty seconds in Clorox Bleach:
Before
After
Notice O in Dollar is the same.
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Camelot
<< <i>I wouldnt call the Clorox job toning, I would call it schmutz. >>
Whatever you want to call it...toning, schmutz, or dipped in bear poop
I could actually watch it goe through the color change. It happened that fast. Yellow to purple basically (and it looked like it went from the rim in). Had I known it would be that fast, I would have stopped it earlier!
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Edited to add: I don't think this example would fool people in person. However, if you have some clorox and a bullion silver coin laying around and haven't seen it before (like I hadn't), I think it is worth taking a look at.
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IWog,
I am not an expert in this area, as I usually don't collect toned coins. All I know is that I laugh when I see "experts" claim that a coins is clearly original or something. I once took a Morgan $, laid it upside down on a piece of cardboard and put in in the sun. After some time had passed, the front was completely toned - Most people (collectors of toned coins) I showed it to told me what a neat, original coin it was!
I think I am lucky, as I actually prefer the looks of blast-white coins to all these "super monster" rainbow coins that simply didn't seem to exist in the recent past and are now "original" anyways.
JJacks
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Les
Stujoe - Thanks for the sacrifice!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Did this just 5 minutes ago to see what would happen.
Stujoe - Thanks for the sacrifice! >>
Sacrifice <giggle>. Come on, it's a Kennedy!
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Well, if by "tone" maybe we mean a silver-sulfer compound, then ok. Bleach has no sulfer.
But silver (Ag+) will react with the halogen group elements (for example, Cl-) forming a number of silver salts such as AgCl.
As for the larger discussion, I believe Iwog's premises might have some basis of truth as general principles or trends, but become disputable when he launches such absolutes as saying "ALL this..." or "NONE of that..." or "this AWAYS..." or "that NEVER...."
There is a whole spectrum (pun intended) of truth out there, and in the end, each coin must speak for itself, as to it's history and market value.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
Personally I have been collecting coins for 35 years and I have seen ugly toning, and some of the most gorgeous coins imaginable, and my choice is "originally" toned high mint state graded coins, if they have all of the other attributes, i.e. luster, strike, etcetera.....
When it comes to the end of the day, it's all a personal choice for the individual collector!
Good job MrEureka, you win. (putting on dunce cap)
Puff, the term "original" doesn't apply to silver coins unless they are blast white and sealed right after they are minted. ANYTHING done to change a coin's appearance including being left in an album for 30 years changes the coin from "original" to "oxidized". A truely original Morgan dollar is blast white, a NON-original Morgan dollar is darkly toned. Lets call a duck a duck.
<< <i>Hey Stujoe...How much for that toned Kennedy???? >>
Let me do some quick calculations...
1.77 for the coin...
.16 for the clorox...
30 seconds of labor...
Ok, that's 7, 13 carry the one, 4, add in the standard labor rate...
How about we call it $1500 even.
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<< <i>Let me do some quick calculations...
1.77 for the coin...
.16 for the clorox...
30 seconds of labor...
Ok, that's 7, 13 carry the one, 4, add in the standard labor rate...
How about we call it $1500 even.
>>
And another Ebay seller is born!
Give that man some positive feedback!!!
Step right up!
One born every minute!
Colored coins versus what? A coin that is washed out because someone thought they could removing deep toning and restore the coins original luster? Yes, I'd say I'd much prefer the coin with the toning rather than a washed out coin.
"The scheme? Convince all coin collectors that toned coins are the way to go!!"
Too many episodes of the "X-Files".
"LARGE numbers of rainbow colored Morgans started appearing on the market where there had been none before."
The inference of course being that most of these coins are ATed, PCGS and NGC are part of these conspiracies, there are not very good diagnostic to identify ATed coins and most collectors are basically stupid.
"what history or link to the past is there with a three legged buffalo nickel?"
The vast majority of 200, 150 and 100 year old coins are going to have some measure of toning. Many 50 year old coins from original Mint Sets are going to have some measure of toning. It's a factor of time and the period of history these coins were produced in and have survived through. Many collectors don't have an "issue" with embracing those facts and don't feel the need to give these coins a face lift.
I have nothing against blast white coins. I like my modern coins blast white. Why? Because they were minted during a period of time where the technology and means to preserve them in their original blast white condition is readily available. I don't mind my 100 year old coins having some toning. Actually when there is absolutely no toning I start looking for the other signs that the coins been monkeyed with.
"One final note.......luster cannot be added to a coin, toning can."
Was that suppose to be a great revelation. A coin leaves the Mint with it's original "skin" and luster. Reaction with chemicals in the enviroment produce the thin film interference we call toning. But when you dip a coin with light toning you are NOT restoring it's original mint luster. Something of the original coin has been stripped away. Those coins that have been dipped are no more "original" then the coins that though time and happenstance have acquired some toning.
"Toning hides luster, or covers up the fact its destroyed."
I have some wonderfully toned coins with brilliant luster shining through and it is very easy to tell if a coin has any underlying luster through the toning. Toning doesn't cover up destroyed luster. That's more "X-Files" stuff
"I KNOW you think I'm full of it"
You're a mind reader too
Examples:
#1 I stated toning hides luster or hides the fact it's gone. (which is ALWAYS true to some extent, no exceptions) The issue of you having a toned coin with visible luster is irrelevant.
#2 I never mentioned a conspiracy in anything I said. In fact, I made it a point to explain how marketing works. I guess saying "X-files" over and over again is the extent of your ability to reply.
#3 Coins don't have "skin" when they leave the mint. Coins develop a layer of oxidation if exposed to hydrogen sulfide, and eventually turn black. This is the process that strips away silver metal, converting it to a very loosely bonded silver sulfide "skin". Dipping a coin removes this layer leaving the pure silver underneath essentially unaffected. Dipping has nothing to do with restoring luster (straw man argument on your part) although it can expose what luster is left.
#4 You quoted my statment about the 3-legged buffalo nickel, then said absolutely nothing about the point I made.....which was only concerned with why people pay lots of money for collectables. I believe your entire reply concerned all old coins being toned or something ridiculous.
#5 The first sentence you quoted wasn't addressed at all. Instead you decided to talk about washed out coins, (which incidently were made that way by toning) an entirely different discussion.
Sooooo........your point was what???? Try and be more clear. Here are MY objections aimed directly at what you said:
#1 The inference of course being that most of these coins are ATed, PCGS and NGC are part of these conspiracies, there are not very good diagnostic to identify ATed coins and most collectors are basically stupid.
My inference if you care to read instead of react blindly is that NO ONE can tell good AT coins from NT coins. Only those people who insist you can ALWAYS tell the difference are implying that people who cannot are basically stupid. This is YOUR position and the position of elitist coin snobs, not mine and the ONLY possible reading of your statment is that you consider people stupid if they can't identify an AT coin.
#2 Dipping? Did you mean to introduce dipping into this conversation? No one said anything about dipping coins, this was a post about the toned coin market. Try not to be so emotional that you ignore totally what we're talking about.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
No it isn't. You can enjoy both toning and luster on the same coin. You don't have to sacrifice one for the other. Check out my lusterous Franklin icon coin.
"I never mentioned a conspiracy in anything I said"
Then you need to use a better choice of words because it was interpreted by myself and others that you were implying a conspiracy.
"Coins don't have "skin" when they leave the mint."
You and everyone else that's been involved in the hobby know exactly what I meant by "skin".
"Coins develop a layer of oxidation if exposed to hydrogen sulfide, and eventually turn black."
The discussion wasn't about coins that are black.
"Dipping a coin removes this layer leaving the pure silver underneath essentially unaffected."
Dipping a coin removes some of the coins original metal (some of it's original skin). A dipped coins is no more original than a toned coin.
"You quoted my statment about the 3-legged buffalo nickel, then said absolutely nothing about the point I made"
Since you missed the point I'll spell it out for you. Whether the history is die polishing by a Mint employee or the toning that is a byproduct of a 100 year passage through time some of us appreciate that history and the evidence of it that is visible on the coin.
"My inference if you care to read instead of react blindly is that NO ONE can tell good AT coins from NT coins"
I wasn't reacting blindly. The inference was that dealers can create a market and that collector just blindly follow their advance. Your first two paragraphs are pretty clear that that was your intention but the first line in your third paragraph makes it perfectly clear.
"The scheme? Convince all coin collectors that toned coins are the way to go!!"
You need to read what you write. Here is another example.
"Dipping? Did you mean to introduce dipping into this conversation? No one said anything about dipping coins"
Who said anything about dipping? You did...
"They would purchase most MS coins as AU, dip them nice, and sell them as Gem or whatever they could convince buyers they were graded at"
Your words Iwog.
"Only those people who insist you can ALWAYS tell the difference are implying that people who cannot are basically stupid."
I never claimed that you can ALWAYS tell if a coin has been ATed but in the vast majority of cases a highly level of certainty can be had with respect to identifying ATed coins. The same is true of coins that have been dipped. In fact, given the right tools you can almost always (I'll not fall into your error of absolutes) identify whether a coin has been dipped. Dipping strips away some of the original metal. Evidence of that alteration may not be obvious to the unaided eye but given enough magnification the changes in flowlines are going to be visible. My guess is with EDS or SEM you could get near 100%.
The amount of luster left on a coin is a good test of how original it is. (how much the original surface has been destroyed) Dipping has nothing to do with this measure, and other than being the primary cause of DAMAGE, toning doesn't either.
By the way, the only sentence you could find where I mentioned dipping was about MARKETING, not dipping coins. It's like trying to debate with a 4 year old who only wants to talk about cookies.
No. I have a knack for pointing out your inconsistencies.
"The amount of luster left on a coin is a good test of how original it is. (how much the original surface has been destroyed) Dipping has nothing to do with this measure, and other than being the primary cause of DAMAGE, toning doesn't either. "
To the degree that dipping removes some of the coins orginal material it absolutely has something to do with this measure.
"By the way, the only sentence you could find where I mentioned dipping was about MARKETING, not dipping coins. It's like trying to debate with a 4 year old who only wants to talk about cookies."
Excuse me, but you said I introduced the subject of dipping into the conversation. Wrong, you did. And since one of the main subjects of the the discussion was the making of markets and the enhancing of the coins themselves or the perception of their value my mention of dipping was right in line with the discussion. So excuse me for point out another of the inconsistencies in your statements.
I hate it when you see my post before I can edit the spelling.
Always looking for nice type coins
my local dealer
Those that shun education will continually talk in circles, and say nothing.
Think about this thread before you reply.
njcoincrank
roadrunner
Roadrunner,
I think NJcoincrank was saying, that as collectors become educated, they form certain preferences which are often reflected in the marketplace. As collectors become more educated, experienced, sophisticated and knowledgeable, many turn to toned coins, in place of bright, shiny (sometimes) dipped white ones.
And, those who choose not to educate themselves will do a lot of talking, but end up saying nothing (of importance).
Finally, I think he was asking that people read and think, before replying to this thread. This makes me think he was less than impressed with a number of the posts.
The above is merely my own, subjective interpretation of the "Crankster's" comments, though I grudgingly admit to knowing him well and thinking very highly of him.
Ditto on all counts, including how I interpreted NJCC's comments herein.
I should add that it is very hard, even for those who make a strenuous effort, to respond in a lengthy and controversial thread such as this with total cogency, clarity of articulation and precision of analysis.
Much of this probably stems from the lack of extreme knowledge that many of the well-intentioned posters possess. There is no way for a collector, even a very well-connected and experienced one, to have the same kind of knowledge that a veteran, well-established and top-notch dealer has.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
11. If you don't know the history, you don't know the coin.
I would agree that experience and knowledge contribute significantly to helping determine if a coin is "natural" or AT, but the bottom line is chemistry is chemistry. Oxidation reactions can be reproduced, some easily and others with great difficulty - many can be "accelerated". I suspect that the best coin doctors or "coin artists" can fool the best graders - but does it matter if the result is a beautiful coin? Who is to know in those cases?
I can only speak about copper, but I've seen at least a dozen beautiful Indians where I knew the history of the coin, but it came back in a bodybag. I also know personally of one case of a high grade AT that came back with just that, a high grade. I suspect that eventually the AT/NT debate will die down over time, as more AT'ed coins that are truly works of art come to the market - but I doubt that the toned market will collapse. More collectors will join the hobby, the grading services will limit the number of coins that get slabbed both (NT and AT), and prices will more or less stabilize. The really good coin doctors do not want the market saturated – it will kill their business. I suspect that becoming a really good coin doctor is just as difficult as becoming a good restoration artist, and that must take a lot of time and experience?
So, collectors should continue to educate themselves, take it all with a grain of salt, enjoy the hobby, and protect the newbies from the rip-off artists and sellers of highway intersection "art" from the back of a van. Just my opinion
Thank you for your attention.
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter