I wonder how much unopened material you would have to have to be considered one of the big unopened collectors by Steve? Wish I could get to the national to see what he has. Good luck to everyone is going in picking up some of the unopened.
Jim
Looking for 66 and 69 OPC baseball 60's OPC packs 72 BB, 60's FB, 71FB, 73FB, 74FB, 75FB, 76FB, 78FB Rack Packs 72 and earlier BB cello
<< <i>Now with that being said, who has the best tickets for Black Sabbath this summer? It may get you some extra pull! Steve >>
I don't have any Sabbath tickets, but if you send me that 1989 Score Football case for free, I promise not to post all over the Black Sabbath forums that you use Spongebob Squarepants as your avatar.
If any of you unopened gurus has a 1971 or 1975 Topps Baseball wax pack, preferably slabbed and graded by PSA and not by GAI, I might be interested if the price is decent.
Well, there you have it right from Steve. BBCE needed to branch out into post 1995 wax and other areas due to the declining supply of older wax - exactly what I had stated earlier today.
<< <i>Now with that being said, who has the best tickets for Black Sabbath this summer? It may get you some extra pull! Steve >>
Steve: Black Sabbath is playing Aug 6 in Clarkston, MI--not too far from where I now live and maybe a 3 hour drive from you. You find a way up here and I'll have a ticket for you. Serious offer.
Read again, ShriveledBowels. Here is EXACTLY what Steve said: "Our business would probably be in a world of trouble if we hadn't branched out to more graded cards, autographs, modern wax (1995 to present) etc."
And yes, I need professional help Edit: Uh, I believe I may have accidently retired my 1970s decade run set...I gotta stop drinking while playing on the registry.
Exactly what I said days ago before Steve confirmed it.
If you've seen the BBCE ads in SMR magazine then you already knew that this is where the emphasis for his business has been heading -- PSA/DNA and graded vintage 70/80s cards.
He'd love to sell us all more unopened if he can find it for a price that allows him to make a nice profit.
Sure there's is a lot of material out there but it's either not for sale or if it is then not at a price that justifies a decent return.
We'll take what we can get but that's shrinking so prices are jacked up.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
I would have thought that being on the PSA grading/authentication team would prohibit one from being a submittor/seller of graded cards? It just doesn't look right for graders/authenticators to be selling, from a business ethics standpoint. It would seem you have to pick one: grader or seller.
This is not about the individual but rather a macro issue. As guys who have been around the hobby a while our perspective may be very different from new guys coming in. The reason I bring this up is that a friend of mine just got back into the hobby and I steered him into graded cards for peace of mind. He is a very educated man and did his homework, and came across the listing of PSA's grading team. We subsequently were discussing unopened, and I told him about BBCE and Steve Hart. He recognized the name from PSA's website and asked if it was the same guy. I told him it was. My friend could not believe that a grader/authenticator was also a seller. He said he couldn't care how nice the guy is, it is just bad form, reeks of impropriety, and is a clear conflict of interest.
I have to admit I can see my friend's POV. He asked me point blank: if BBCE sells single graded cards, how can fresh eyes to the hobby seeing only the facts believe BBCE did not get a favorable grade worth thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, i.e. a 10 on a HOF RC versus a 9? I did not have a ready answer.
Everyone here knows I have participated in rips and I have bought my fair share from BBCE with no problem, and would buy any accurately graded PSA card from them. This is less about any individual and more about stepping back from our close perspective and seeing this aspect of our hobby from a newcomer's eyes. Surely we do not want any perceptions of impropriety to turn newcomers off, which is why I think the topic is worth mentioning. I am strictly raising the question and have yet to decide where I personally come out on the matter, not that my opinion means anything. I believe it has been brought up here before with respect to BBCE selling packs they themselves authenticate, but the reaction to that was basically, "We know Steve is a great guy, he gets a pass." That may make sense to relative "insiders," but I saw firsthand that to newcomers entering the hobby with passion and excitement, it was definitely a turn off.
<< <i> "We know Steve is a great guy, he gets a pass." That may make sense to relative "insiders," but I saw firsthand that to newcomers entering the hobby with passion and excitement, it was definitely a turn off. >>
I already posed that question earlier in this thread. People responded to my question like I had three eyes.
But it's an issue that's not going away.
As more fraud continues it should be a business practice of all the TPG companies to be as squeakly-clean as they can be and to totally eliminate any potentiona conflict of interest situation.
If they want to get new customers to buy in they must do this. I personally know several guys that have huge collections and nothing graded and the biggest issue for them is credibility.
I really don't think it's an option for a company in a business that has a very bad rep these days.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
I agree with everything you said Matty. I think the problem is that Steve's model has changed from strictly unopened focused to cards, sets, autos, etc. as well. I'm sure Steve is not getting rich grading packs for PSA, but does it more because of a genuine concern for that niche in the hobby. You get the same arguments for the large card submitters who are perceived to get preferential treatment. You are paying for PSA's guarantee that they are grading the cards accurately and correctly. Big difference being a subcontractor like Steve under contract with PSA and an actual employee. Perception is big and like I said I do agree with you on that point Matty, but as you know there are always two sides to every coin. But the most important thing is no matter what you buy raw, PSA, SGC, JSA, etc., buy the card and not the holder.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
While this is obviously not a G-4 summit with global issues on the table, it is a topic that is not going away and should be discussed rationally and with level heads. What's best for the hobby is for TPGs to be squeaky clean, what's best for any business is to avoid conflicts of interest that turn off newcomers.
I just hate to turn my head to what my buddy's reaction was. It feels like a cop-out on my part. No matter how I want to slice it or spin it otherwise, the fact is that someone authenticating and grading for PSA is also selling. If that isn't a conflict of interest, than what is?
<< <i>I agree with everything you said Matty. I think the problem is that Steve's model has changed from strictly unopened focused to cards, sets, autos, etc. as well. I'm sure Steve is not getting rich grading packs for PSA, but does it more because of a genuine concern for that niche in the hobby. You get the same arguments for the large card submitters who are perceived to get preferential treatment. You are paying for PSA's guarantee that they are grading the cards accurately and correctly. Big difference being a subcontractor like Steve under contract with PSA and an actual employee. Perception is big and like I said I do agree with you on that point Matty, but as you know there are always two sides to every coin. But the most important thing is no matter what you buy raw, PSA, SGC, JSA, etc., buy the card and not the holder. >>
Totally agree that he was not getting rich on packs. I also agree that there has always been the feeling large submitters get love. You raise these two new points of interest:
A) Subcontractor or full-time employee, I have to admit that if someone is getting checks from PSA for grading and authenticating, the perception to any fresh eyes is that this person has insider access to the grading process. Much more so than a big time submitter.
Graded singles can bring huge money. If the aforementioned hypothetical subcontractor does grading for PSA, how can we honestly expect new money entering the hobby to trust such an insider with access was not given the benefit of the doubt from 9 to 10 on a 1968 Ryan for example?
I think the big problem we all face is that telling a newcomer, "Don't worry, big submitters get extra love, too" is far from reassuring, and far from a rationale for there being a grader/seller out there.
You and I both end up in the same place, which is that there always is a solution: namely buy the card not the holder and it is all good. That is what I always come back to and it simplifies everything beautifully.
I guess the optimum scenario would be that BBCE trains a new party to do the authenticating and grading Steve does, so that then he could be more of a consultant/expert as opposed to a formal member of their grading team. I am sure there are more guys like my friend out there and the best thing for the hobby is for those guys to jump into what they love and build collections. That is probably the single most important thing for the hobby's health: new collectors continuously entering the market with enthusiasm. Now if such a guy with excitement and money sees a PSA-employed grader also selling cards, that new money and new collector goes bye-bye. I think that's a scenario we should all seek to prevent from happening.
As Dave basically said earlier, the greater the perception of ethics and clean-dealings, the more people will enter the hobby with enthusiasm, and the bigger and healthier the market will be for it. So one would think that everyone involved at every level, especially the TPGs and big sellers, would do everything they can to appear as above-board as possible.
While the market may be tightening up and availability may seem slim, there is still plenty of stuff out there and I'm pretty sure that if prices continue to escalate, that we will see more of it begin to trickle out.
I'm glad you brought this up MattyC. This is an important issue that I'm not afraid to talk about and always will try to explain it the best I can.
In a perfect scenario, PSA and PSA/DNA would employ people who we never got to see or hear of. They would be 3rd party people who were not actually involved in the business aspect of this hobby at all. Unfortunately, sports memorabilia/sports cards is a very thinly traded market. When we compare it to quite a few other trading markets, we are just a blip on the radar. I think the process PSA uses is probably the best it can be. For example, when PSA came to me about authenticating packs, I offered them some names of people that I considered stand-up guys who could do a good job with knowledge and with honesty. The problem came was that the guys I recommended just didn't want to do it. It was either a time issue, a pay issue (let me be honest, the pay is peanuts and that is not because it is a bad deal from PSA, its just that packs are a very, very thinly traded market where the volume per year is basically well below poverty level!) or they just didn't want to be involved. Therefore, I was asked it I would do it. I accepted because I wanted to get this done to the best that I could. Believe me, I end up doing the packs on Saturdays and Sundays. I would rather be doing just about anything than working on the weekends instead of spending time with my daughter. I just don't think we could find someone to do some of the services that PSA offers, have the knowledge to do so, have the time to do so and be able to make a living doing it. While it does at time cause people to question the conflict of interest, I'm not sure there is another way. Since the volume is there for graders of cards and autographs to not have a business on the side, the volume is just not there for packs, tickets, bats, photos, etc.
I hope this helps explain a few things from my perspective. Thanks! Steve
It makes sense to me, from the standpoint that expertise is required to service a need in the market, and you clearly have that expertise. Moreover, this is a skill set that is not easily found. I also see it to an extent from PSA's perspective, in terms of why they would seek you out for this.
I think the many potential newcomers to the hobby who are out there, whom we all want to feel secure and confident in our hobby, just need to be considered as well. The example of my friend which I recounted above is a case in point. Perhaps if guys like that were to see a disclaimer or such explaining the type of expertise you render and its strict limits, it would nip their understandable perception in the bud right there. I have not perused your site in a bit so perhaps such a thing already exists.
What I do believe is that it would reassure many potential new customers for your graded cards, and also instill confidence in the hobby as a whole. I think all people would need to hear is that while you render your expertise on packs, it does not grant you favorable access to the grading process when it comes to single cards. This would foster confidence in customers contemplating the purchase of graded cards.
I'd like to add that it must be a very difficult catch-22 for you, to feel obligated to lend your expertise and render a service the hobby needs, but also knowing how fresh eyes could view the situation. It is not an easy position to be in, for sure. Many of us who know and have dealt with you can say what we can to newcomers and also encourage them to buy the card always, but there will always be more newcomers whom we will not know.
this is not BBCE--just wanted to say that since Steve and I apparently share an affinity for unopened and Spongebob Squarepants
TextI would have thought that being on the PSA grading/authentication team would prohibit one from being a submittor/seller of graded cards? It just doesn't look right for graders/authenticators to be selling, from a business ethics standpoint. It would seem you have to pick one: grader or seller.
1st of all- your topic should be part of a different thread--IMO. Having said that
in a vacuum and in a perfect world maybe yes. But as in every other situation--you can't be short sighted. So go you have to go one step further and say--OK--what if...
so what if Steve says, sorry PSA don't need the hassle, I could make a TON of money doing what every other dealer does with graded cards, or if you have faith in my reputation and me in yours--we can agree on whatever code of ethics is acceptable to the hobby --that way the unopened hobby can have the best unopened expert out there authenticating packs.
In the alternative--Steve is out--and who grades packs? Who that you would have faith in?
So tell your friend do a little research into the people and the process involved and the unique circumstances and perhaps his perception will be cleared up by the reality
I hear you, but not every newcomer to the hobby will want to do such delving to assuage a concern that strikes them from the very outset. Nor will those of us "in the know" always be there to tell them what reality to seek out, or where that knowledge can be obtained. So it circles back to doing whatever we can to make everything seem above-board and eliminate seeming conflicts of interest or impressions of impropriety. To answer your question, I would definitely have faith in any person Steve hand-selected, vetted, and trained to authenticate packs. But again I totally understand it is far from a cut-and-dried issue, and one with no obvious path.
I think the one thing that some people that demonstrate concern about a conflict of interest are missing is that, as far as I understand it, Steve is only AUTHENTICATING the packs that he examines with a thumbs up or a thumbs down. It is an arbitrary grader at PSA that assigns the grade to the pack. Assuming that this is accurate, I would venture to say that such should eliminate some of the concern with regard to pack grading, per se.
With regard to preferential treatment, the cries of foul will always exist. There will always be someone pointing a finger at large/bulk submitters, friends, auction houses or prominent collectors out of jealousy or misunderstanding. They can inevitably find an over graded example with which to plant their flag (failing to cite the examples that are under graded and usually cracked out and resubmitted). Such aspects and concerns will never be quelled regardless of factual or anecdotal evidence to the contrary. They are just the nature of the beast.
TPG is a service and an arbitrary assessment for the purpose of allowing a level of consistency within the hobby and to dispel a lot of the "take it on faith" salesmanship that exists. It will NEVER be perfect and one should always do their research and examine everything they buy . . . buy the card, not the holder.
<< <i>With regard to preferential treatment, the cries of foul will always exist. There will always be someone pointing a finger at large/bulk submitters, friends, auction houses or prominent collectors out of jealousy or misunderstanding. They can inevitably find an over graded example with which to plant their flag (failing to cite the examples that are under graded and usually cracked out and resubmitted). Such aspects and concerns will never be quelled regardless of factual or anecdotal evidence to the contrary. They are just the nature of the beast.
TPG is a service and an arbitrary assessment for the purpose of allowing a level of consistency within the hobby and to dispel a lot of the "take it on faith" salesmanship that exists. It will NEVER be perfect and one should always do their research and examine everything they buy . . . buy the card, not the holder. >>
Scott,
That was so nicely stated and I couldn't agree more.
<< <i>With regard to preferential treatment, the cries of foul will always exist. There will always be someone pointing a finger at large/bulk submitters, friends, auction houses or prominent collectors out of jealousy or misunderstanding. They can inevitably find an over graded example with which to plant their flag (failing to cite the examples that are under graded and usually cracked out and resubmitted). Such aspects and concerns will never be quelled regardless of factual or anecdotal evidence to the contrary. They are just the nature of the beast.
TPG is a service and an arbitrary assessment for the purpose of allowing a level of consistency within the hobby and to dispel a lot of the "take it on faith" salesmanship that exists. It will NEVER be perfect and one should always do their research and examine everything they buy . . . buy the card, not the holder. >>
Scott,
That was so nicely stated and I couldn't agree more. >>
Stop it! You're throwing a monkey-wrench into the fact that there are many that suggest I contribute NOTHING to these boards other than negativism, sarcasm and wise azzed commentary.
<< <i>From what I've gathered over the years, Steve does not grade anything for PSA. He is used to authenticate that unopened packs are indeed unopened.
Scott
This was my understanding as well...
CURRENT PROJECTS IN WORK: To be honest, no direction, but... 1966-69 Topps EX+ 1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9 All Topps Heritage-Master Sets
<< <i>I think the one thing that some people that demonstrate concern about a conflict of interest are missing is that, as far as I understand it, Steve is only AUTHENTICATING the packs that he examines with a thumbs up or a thumbs down. It is an arbitrary grader at PSA that assigns the grade to the pack. Assuming that this is accurate, I would venture to say that such should eliminate some of the concern with regard to pack grading, per se.
>>
Evidently, Steve is an honest man, and our belief in that is what mitigates conflict of interest worries. Absent that belief, the potential for conflict of interest would be immense. The authentication of packs is the most important part of the process. The grading is secondary. Let's face it: if Steve were a crook, all he would have to do is authenticate tons of fake packs and either sell them himself, or have them sold through a third party. There is immense potential for conflict of interest. I don't blame anyone for bringing that up. It personally doesn't concern me, because I believe Steve is honest. That's the bottom line.
I love the direction this thread has taken, namely Steve's responses to these very reasonable questions. And thanks very much to Steve for handling them with class and maintaining integrity, as always. Steve, those are some really interesting thoughts from "inside the boiler room" so to speak and why it is taking so long to get grades back. It's a bit of a bummer that so few people do it and there isn't much of a market there yet.
It's great to get clarification that you only authenticate...you do not grade. I often wondered about the awkwardness of the whole process. So many of us are buying packs from you, then sending them into PSA, who of course sends them right back to you. It's a rather funny process isn't it? So a month or 2 after you sell us a pack, you get it right back.
Steve, has it ever been discussed sending the pack(s) straight to PSA already authenticated? It would certainly save a lot of time and save a lot of trouble. I can call you up and pick up a 1975 Cello with Winfield on it and tell you I'd like it graded. You have obviously already authenticated it so send it off for the grade, yes?
P.S. I don't doubt for a second that I am not the first person to bring this up and , yes , it has been discussed. I guess I am asking the reasons why you haven't done it. Conflict of interest?
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
P.S. I don't doubt for a second that I am not the first person to bring this up and , yes , it has been discussed. I guess I am asking the reasons why you haven't done it. Conflict of interest?
you're not. Can't recall the exact answer...but I am guessing that it has to do with BBCE being required to fill out the sub form, ship it to PSA, collect the fees for grading, take out insurance and the inherent risk of the package being lost, etc. etc.--wayyyy toooo much hassle for a dealer I am thinking--especially on 1000s of packs. Would be great if it could be done, but too much paperwork for BBCE to tackle on a consistent basis
<< <i>P.S. I don't doubt for a second that I am not the first person to bring this up and , yes , it has been discussed. I guess I am asking the reasons why you haven't done it. Conflict of interest?
you're not. Can't recall the exact answer...but I am guessing that it has to do with BBCE being required to fill out the sub form, ship it to PSA, collect the fees for grading, take out insurance and the inherent risk of the package being lost, etc. etc.--wayyyy toooo much hassle for a dealer I am thinking--especially on 1000s of packs. Would be great if it could be done, but too much paperwork for BBCE to tackle on a consistent basis
Manny >>
I would think it would be easier than the process just mentioned of basically authenticating the same pack twice. Even though he sells it to me and I send it back for a grade, he has to re examine....
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
So, I don't get to this board much any more. I just started the thread and find it fascinating. I just turned to page 8, and now I see there are FORTY TWO pages of posts. Wow. Anyone got the Cliffs Notes version?!
<< <i>P.S. I don't doubt for a second that I am not the first person to bring this up and , yes , it has been discussed. I guess I am asking the reasons why you haven't done it. Conflict of interest?
you're not. Can't recall the exact answer...but I am guessing that it has to do with BBCE being required to fill out the sub form, ship it to PSA, collect the fees for grading, take out insurance and the inherent risk of the package being lost, etc. etc.--wayyyy toooo much hassle for a dealer I am thinking--especially on 1000s of packs. Would be great if it could be done, but too much paperwork for BBCE to tackle on a consistent basis
Manny >>
I would think it would be easier than the process just mentioned of basically authenticating the same pack twice. Even though he sells it to me and I send it back for a grade, he has to re examine.... >>
The only way I see this working is for BBCE to sell you the pack sealed as authentic. From there you could decide yes or no to send the pack to PSA for grading. Currently, this process does not exist. It certainly would be an excessive amount of work for BBCE to handle the paper work and cover the expenses as Manny has stated.
Doug
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW What a Ride!' Mark Frost
<< <i>So, I don't get to this board much any more. I just started the thread and find it fascinating. I just turned to page 8, and now I see there are FORTY TWO pages of posts. Wow. Anyone got the Cliffs Notes version?! >>
Here you go:
For 1970s, BBCE has dried up. Some hold out hope that Steve is amassing product for the National. Pricing is way up. Many people are priced out of 1970s.
BBCE is also somewhat dried up for early 1980s product (thanks MintMoonDog - hah!). Is 1980-86 the next product group to take a huge jump in price? Some say yes - relative price to product just a few years older makes it look like a bargain. Some say no - too much produced; not enough registry collectors; lack big-dollar PSA 10 cards you see in 1970s product. Some see 1980s product dropping in value and the recent price increases are a reflection of either herd mentality and/or panic on missing out on the "next big thing."
Should BBCE be selling PSA-graded packs? They don't self-submit packs. Packs sold are purchased on open market and resold. BBCE only authenticates packs; they do not tell PSA what grade to give a pack. Some see a conflict of interest. Most are willing to accept any perceived conflict because of Steve's reputation.
Also discussed: when new product hits BBCE, BBG's sale of wrappers and gum, some recent pick-ups, and some off-topic mentions.
<< <i>So, I don't get to this board much any more. I just started the thread and find it fascinating. I just turned to page 8, and now I see there are FORTY TWO pages of posts. Wow. Anyone got the Cliffs Notes version?! >>
Here you go:
For 1970s, BBCE has dried up. Some hold out hope that Steve is amassing product for the National. Pricing is way up. Many people are priced out of 1970s.
BBCE is also somewhat dried up for early 1980s product (thanks MintMoonDog - hah!). Is 1980-86 the next product group to take a huge jump in price? Some say yes - relative price to product just a few years older makes it look like a bargain. Some say no - too much produced; not enough registry collectors; lack big-dollar PSA 10 cards you see in 1970s product. Some see 1980s product dropping in value and the recent price increases are a reflection of either herd mentality and/or panic on missing out on the "next big thing."
Should BBCE be selling PSA-graded packs? They don't self-submit packs. Packs sold are purchased on open market and resold. BBCE only authenticates packs; they do not tell PSA what grade to give a pack. Some see a conflict of interest. Most are willing to accept any perceived conflict because of Steve's reputation.
Also discussed: when new product hits BBCE, BBG's sale of wrappers and gum, some recent pick-ups, and some off-topic mentions. >>
Pretty well stated. And Steve did confirm he is holding (at least some) product for the National.
CURRENT PROJECTS IN WORK: To be honest, no direction, but... 1966-69 Topps EX+ 1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9 All Topps Heritage-Master Sets
Comments
<< <i>HA! I knew we could get Steve to comment on here. >>
Nice Foo...so what is the over/under for 1980s BBCE webpage items by Monday morning? Currently 108
Wish I could get to the national to see what he has. Good luck to everyone is going in picking up some of the unopened.
Jim
60's OPC packs
72 BB, 60's FB, 71FB, 73FB, 74FB, 75FB, 76FB, 78FB Rack Packs
72 and earlier BB cello
To be honest, no direction, but...
1966-69 Topps EX+
1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9
All Topps Heritage-Master Sets
<< <i>Now with that being said, who has the best tickets for Black Sabbath this summer? It may get you some extra pull! Steve >>
I don't have any Sabbath tickets, but if you send me that 1989 Score Football case for free, I promise not to post all over the Black Sabbath forums that you use Spongebob Squarepants as your avatar.
Snorto~
Not a box, just a pack, this ain't Fort Knox
Mike
And moondog......you better come strong if you want to take me on. You sure all your minis measure up?
<< <i>Now with that being said, who has the best tickets for Black Sabbath this summer? It may get you some extra pull! Steve >>
Steve: Black Sabbath is playing Aug 6 in Clarkston, MI--not too far from where I now live and maybe a 3 hour drive from you. You find a way up here and I'll have a ticket for you. Serious offer.
<< <i>That's not what he said. He said he knows where the big unopened stashes are & those people aren't selling.
And moondog......you better come strong if you want to take me on. You sure all your minis measure up? >>
Moondogthat70sset
6 of the top 10 complete mini sets:
Mintmoondog's That 70s decade
TheBuzztroop
TheBuzztroop3
ACDC
Aerosmith
TheWho
Moondogs 75Minis
And yes, I need professional help
Edit: Uh, I believe I may have accidently retired my 1970s decade run set...I gotta stop drinking while playing on the registry.
Seems like a decent price with the dry spell.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
To be honest, no direction, but...
1966-69 Topps EX+
1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9
All Topps Heritage-Master Sets
If you've seen the BBCE ads in SMR magazine then you already knew that this is where
the emphasis for his business has been heading -- PSA/DNA and graded vintage 70/80s cards.
He'd love to sell us all more unopened if he can find it for a price that allows him to make
a nice profit.
Sure there's is a lot of material out there but it's either not for sale or if it is then not at a
price that justifies a decent return.
We'll take what we can get but that's shrinking so prices are jacked up.
DaveB in St.Louis
This is not about the individual but rather a macro issue. As guys who have been around the hobby a while our perspective may be very different from new guys coming in. The reason I bring this up is that a friend of mine just got back into the hobby and I steered him into graded cards for peace of mind. He is a very educated man and did his homework, and came across the listing of PSA's grading team. We subsequently were discussing unopened, and I told him about BBCE and Steve Hart. He recognized the name from PSA's website and asked if it was the same guy. I told him it was. My friend could not believe that a grader/authenticator was also a seller. He said he couldn't care how nice the guy is, it is just bad form, reeks of impropriety, and is a clear conflict of interest.
I have to admit I can see my friend's POV. He asked me point blank: if BBCE sells single graded cards, how can fresh eyes to the hobby seeing only the facts believe BBCE did not get a favorable grade worth thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, i.e. a 10 on a HOF RC versus a 9? I did not have a ready answer.
Everyone here knows I have participated in rips and I have bought my fair share from BBCE with no problem, and would buy any accurately graded PSA card from them. This is less about any individual and more about stepping back from our close perspective and seeing this aspect of our hobby from a newcomer's eyes. Surely we do not want any perceptions of impropriety to turn newcomers off, which is why I think the topic is worth mentioning. I am strictly raising the question and have yet to decide where I personally come out on the matter, not that my opinion means anything. I believe it has been brought up here before with respect to BBCE selling packs they themselves authenticate, but the reaction to that was basically, "We know Steve is a great guy, he gets a pass." That may make sense to relative "insiders," but I saw firsthand that to newcomers entering the hobby with passion and excitement, it was definitely a turn off.
<< <i>Is anyone going to jump on this: 84 Topps Baseball
Seems like a decent price with the dry spell. >>
I am floored that someone would pay $500 for a box of 84 Topps.
Always buying Bobby Cox inserts. PM me.
<< <i> "We know Steve is a great guy, he gets a pass." That may make sense to relative "insiders," but I saw firsthand that to newcomers entering the hobby with passion and excitement, it was definitely a turn off. >>
I already posed that question earlier in this thread. People responded to my question
like I had three eyes.
But it's an issue that's not going away.
As more fraud continues it should be a business practice of all the TPG companies to be as
squeakly-clean as they can be and to totally eliminate any potentiona conflict of interest situation.
If they want to get new customers to buy in they must do this. I personally know several guys that
have huge collections and nothing graded and the biggest issue for them is credibility.
I really don't think it's an option for a company in a business that has a very bad rep these days.
DaveB in St.Louis
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
I think you are right on all counts.
While this is obviously not a G-4 summit with global issues on the table, it is a topic that is not going away and should be discussed rationally and with level heads. What's best for the hobby is for TPGs to be squeaky clean, what's best for any business is to avoid conflicts of interest that turn off newcomers.
I just hate to turn my head to what my buddy's reaction was. It feels like a cop-out on my part. No matter how I want to slice it or spin it otherwise, the fact is that someone authenticating and grading for PSA is also selling. If that isn't a conflict of interest, than what is?
<< <i>
<< <i>Is anyone going to jump on this: 84 Topps Baseball
Seems like a decent price with the dry spell. >>
I am floored that someone would pay $500 for a box of 84 Topps. >>
He's fishing for an idiot Michael. Even he is not expecting to actually get that, but he can always dream.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>I agree with everything you said Matty. I think the problem is that Steve's model has changed from strictly unopened focused to cards, sets, autos, etc. as well. I'm sure Steve is not getting rich grading packs for PSA, but does it more because of a genuine concern for that niche in the hobby. You get the same arguments for the large card submitters who are perceived to get preferential treatment. You are paying for PSA's guarantee that they are grading the cards accurately and correctly. Big difference being a subcontractor like Steve under contract with PSA and an actual employee. Perception is big and like I said I do agree with you on that point Matty, but as you know there are always two sides to every coin. But the most important thing is no matter what you buy raw, PSA, SGC, JSA, etc., buy the card and not the holder. >>
Totally agree that he was not getting rich on packs. I also agree that there has always been the feeling large submitters get love. You raise these two new points of interest:
A) Subcontractor or full-time employee, I have to admit that if someone is getting checks from PSA for grading and authenticating, the perception to any fresh eyes is that this person has insider access to the grading process. Much more so than a big time submitter.
I think the big problem we all face is that telling a newcomer, "Don't worry, big submitters get extra love, too" is far from reassuring, and far from a rationale for there being a grader/seller out there.
You and I both end up in the same place, which is that there always is a solution: namely buy the card not the holder and it is all good. That is what I always come back to and it simplifies everything beautifully.
I guess the optimum scenario would be that BBCE trains a new party to do the authenticating and grading Steve does, so that then he could be more of a consultant/expert as opposed to a formal member of their grading team. I am sure there are more guys like my friend out there and the best thing for the hobby is for those guys to jump into what they love and build collections. That is probably the single most important thing for the hobby's health: new collectors continuously entering the market with enthusiasm. Now if such a guy with excitement and money sees a PSA-employed grader also selling cards, that new money and new collector goes bye-bye. I think that's a scenario we should all seek to prevent from happening.
As Dave basically said earlier, the greater the perception of ethics and clean-dealings, the more people will enter the hobby with enthusiasm, and the bigger and healthier the market will be for it. So one would think that everyone involved at every level, especially the TPGs and big sellers, would do everything they can to appear as above-board as possible.
Scott
P.S.
I'll be lovin' me some early Kahns Football at the BBCE table in a couple months!!!
In a perfect scenario, PSA and PSA/DNA would employ people who we never got to see or hear of. They would be 3rd party people who were not actually involved in the business aspect of this hobby at all. Unfortunately, sports memorabilia/sports cards is a very thinly traded market. When we compare it to quite a few other trading markets, we are just a blip on the radar. I think the process PSA uses is probably the best it can be. For example, when PSA came to me about authenticating packs, I offered them some names of people that I considered stand-up guys who could do a good job with knowledge and with honesty. The problem came was that the guys I recommended just didn't want to do it. It was either a time issue, a pay issue (let me be honest, the pay is peanuts and that is not because it is a bad deal from PSA, its just that packs are a very, very thinly traded market where the volume per year is basically well below poverty level!) or they just didn't want to be involved. Therefore, I was asked it I would do it. I accepted because I wanted to get this done to the best that I could. Believe me, I end up doing the packs on Saturdays and Sundays. I would rather be doing just about anything than working on the weekends instead of spending time with my daughter. I just don't think we could find someone to do some of the services that PSA offers, have the knowledge to do so, have the time to do so and be able to make a living doing it. While it does at time cause people to question the conflict of interest, I'm not sure there is another way. Since the volume is there for graders of cards and autographs to not have a business on the side, the volume is just not there for packs, tickets, bats, photos, etc.
I hope this helps explain a few things from my perspective. Thanks! Steve
It makes sense to me, from the standpoint that expertise is required to service a need in the market, and you clearly have that expertise. Moreover, this is a skill set that is not easily found. I also see it to an extent from PSA's perspective, in terms of why they would seek you out for this.
I think the many potential newcomers to the hobby who are out there, whom we all want to feel secure and confident in our hobby, just need to be considered as well. The example of my friend which I recounted above is a case in point. Perhaps if guys like that were to see a disclaimer or such explaining the type of expertise you render and its strict limits, it would nip their understandable perception in the bud right there. I have not perused your site in a bit so perhaps such a thing already exists.
What I do believe is that it would reassure many potential new customers for your graded cards, and also instill confidence in the hobby as a whole. I think all people would need to hear is that while you render your expertise on packs, it does not grant you favorable access to the grading process when it comes to single cards. This would foster confidence in customers contemplating the purchase of graded cards.
I'd like to add that it must be a very difficult catch-22 for you, to feel obligated to lend your expertise and render a service the hobby needs, but also knowing how fresh eyes could view the situation. It is not an easy position to be in, for sure. Many of us who know and have dealt with you can say what we can to newcomers and also encourage them to buy the card always, but there will always be more newcomers whom we will not know.
Best,
Matt Cirulnick
I'll say it again: I'd cross it.
If you have some spare time, check out this link:
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=113951
..and definitely follow the link in post #4.
<< <i>I hope this helps explain a few things from my perspective. Thanks! Steve >>
Thanks for responding Steve, we all know there is at least one stand-up guy in the biz
that isn't daunted by some tough questions.
DaveB in St.Louis
TextI would have thought that being on the PSA grading/authentication team would prohibit one from being a submittor/seller of graded cards? It just doesn't look right for graders/authenticators to be selling, from a business ethics standpoint. It would seem you have to pick one: grader or seller.
1st of all- your topic should be part of a different thread--IMO. Having said that
in a vacuum and in a perfect world maybe yes. But as in every other situation--you can't be short sighted. So go you have to go one step further and say--OK--what if...
so what if Steve says, sorry PSA don't need the hassle, I could make a TON of money doing what every other dealer does with graded cards, or if you have faith in my reputation and me in yours--we can agree on whatever code of ethics is acceptable to the hobby --that way the unopened hobby can have the best unopened expert out there authenticating packs.
In the alternative--Steve is out--and who grades packs? Who that you would have faith in?
So tell your friend do a little research into the people and the process involved and the unique circumstances and perhaps his perception will be cleared up by the reality
Manny
I hear you, but not every newcomer to the hobby will want to do such delving to assuage a concern that strikes them from the very outset. Nor will those of us "in the know" always be there to tell them what reality to seek out, or where that knowledge can be obtained. So it circles back to doing whatever we can to make everything seem above-board and eliminate seeming conflicts of interest or impressions of impropriety. To answer your question, I would definitely have faith in any person Steve hand-selected, vetted, and trained to authenticate packs. But again I totally understand it is far from a cut-and-dried issue, and one with no obvious path.
With regard to preferential treatment, the cries of foul will always exist. There will always be someone pointing a finger at large/bulk submitters, friends, auction houses or prominent collectors out of jealousy or misunderstanding. They can inevitably find an over graded example with which to plant their flag (failing to cite the examples that are under graded and usually cracked out and resubmitted). Such aspects and concerns will never be quelled regardless of factual or anecdotal evidence to the contrary. They are just the nature of the beast.
TPG is a service and an arbitrary assessment for the purpose of allowing a level of consistency within the hobby and to dispel a lot of the "take it on faith" salesmanship that exists. It will NEVER be perfect and one should always do their research and examine everything they buy . . . buy the card, not the holder.
<< <i>With regard to preferential treatment, the cries of foul will always exist. There will always be someone pointing a finger at large/bulk submitters, friends, auction houses or prominent collectors out of jealousy or misunderstanding. They can inevitably find an over graded example with which to plant their flag (failing to cite the examples that are under graded and usually cracked out and resubmitted). Such aspects and concerns will never be quelled regardless of factual or anecdotal evidence to the contrary. They are just the nature of the beast.
TPG is a service and an arbitrary assessment for the purpose of allowing a level of consistency within the hobby and to dispel a lot of the "take it on faith" salesmanship that exists. It will NEVER be perfect and one should always do their research and examine everything they buy . . . buy the card, not the holder. >>
Scott,
That was so nicely stated and I couldn't agree more.
<< <i>
<< <i>With regard to preferential treatment, the cries of foul will always exist. There will always be someone pointing a finger at large/bulk submitters, friends, auction houses or prominent collectors out of jealousy or misunderstanding. They can inevitably find an over graded example with which to plant their flag (failing to cite the examples that are under graded and usually cracked out and resubmitted). Such aspects and concerns will never be quelled regardless of factual or anecdotal evidence to the contrary. They are just the nature of the beast.
TPG is a service and an arbitrary assessment for the purpose of allowing a level of consistency within the hobby and to dispel a lot of the "take it on faith" salesmanship that exists. It will NEVER be perfect and one should always do their research and examine everything they buy . . . buy the card, not the holder. >>
Scott,
That was so nicely stated and I couldn't agree more. >>
Stop it! You're throwing a monkey-wrench into the fact that there are many that suggest I contribute NOTHING to these boards other than negativism, sarcasm and wise azzed commentary.
<< <i>From what I've gathered over the years, Steve does not grade anything for PSA. He is used to authenticate that unopened packs are indeed unopened.
Scott
This was my understanding as well...
To be honest, no direction, but...
1966-69 Topps EX+
1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9
All Topps Heritage-Master Sets
<< <i>
other than negativism, sarcasm and wise azzed commentary. >>
I sense some redundancy in that
<< <i>I think the one thing that some people that demonstrate concern about a conflict of interest are missing is that, as far as I understand it, Steve is only AUTHENTICATING the packs that he examines with a thumbs up or a thumbs down. It is an arbitrary grader at PSA that assigns the grade to the pack. Assuming that this is accurate, I would venture to say that such should eliminate some of the concern with regard to pack grading, per se.
>>
Evidently, Steve is an honest man, and our belief in that is what mitigates conflict of interest worries. Absent that belief, the potential for conflict of interest would be immense. The authentication of packs is the most important part of the process. The grading is secondary. Let's face it: if Steve were a crook, all he would have to do is authenticate tons of fake packs and either sell them himself, or have them sold through a third party. There is immense potential for conflict of interest. I don't blame anyone for bringing that up. It personally doesn't concern me, because I believe Steve is honest. That's the bottom line.
It's great to get clarification that you only authenticate...you do not grade. I often wondered about the awkwardness of the whole process. So many of us are buying packs from you, then sending them into PSA, who of course sends them right back to you. It's a rather funny process isn't it? So a month or 2 after you sell us a pack, you get it right back.
Steve, has it ever been discussed sending the pack(s) straight to PSA already authenticated? It would certainly save a lot of time and save a lot of trouble. I can call you up and pick up a 1975 Cello with Winfield on it and tell you I'd like it graded. You have obviously already authenticated it so send it off for the grade, yes?
P.S. I don't doubt for a second that I am not the first person to bring this up and , yes , it has been discussed. I guess I am asking the reasons why you haven't done it. Conflict of interest?
TheClockworkAngelCollection
you're not. Can't recall the exact answer...but I am guessing that it has to do with BBCE being required to fill out the sub form, ship it to PSA, collect the fees for grading, take out insurance and the inherent risk of the package being lost, etc. etc.--wayyyy toooo much hassle for a dealer I am thinking--especially on 1000s of packs. Would be great if it could be done, but too much paperwork for BBCE to tackle on a consistent basis
Manny
<< <i>P.S. I don't doubt for a second that I am not the first person to bring this up and , yes , it has been discussed. I guess I am asking the reasons why you haven't done it. Conflict of interest?
you're not. Can't recall the exact answer...but I am guessing that it has to do with BBCE being required to fill out the sub form, ship it to PSA, collect the fees for grading, take out insurance and the inherent risk of the package being lost, etc. etc.--wayyyy toooo much hassle for a dealer I am thinking--especially on 1000s of packs. Would be great if it could be done, but too much paperwork for BBCE to tackle on a consistent basis
Manny >>
I would think it would be easier than the process just mentioned of basically authenticating the same pack twice. Even though he sells it to me and I send it back for a grade, he has to re examine....
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>
<< <i>P.S. I don't doubt for a second that I am not the first person to bring this up and , yes , it has been discussed. I guess I am asking the reasons why you haven't done it. Conflict of interest?
you're not. Can't recall the exact answer...but I am guessing that it has to do with BBCE being required to fill out the sub form, ship it to PSA, collect the fees for grading, take out insurance and the inherent risk of the package being lost, etc. etc.--wayyyy toooo much hassle for a dealer I am thinking--especially on 1000s of packs. Would be great if it could be done, but too much paperwork for BBCE to tackle on a consistent basis
Manny >>
I would think it would be easier than the process just mentioned of basically authenticating the same pack twice. Even though he sells it to me and I send it back for a grade, he has to re examine.... >>
The only way I see this working is for BBCE to sell you the pack sealed as authentic. From there you could decide yes or no to send the pack to PSA for grading. Currently, this process does not exist. It certainly would be an excessive amount of work for BBCE to handle the paper work and cover the expenses as Manny has stated.
Doug
<< <i>So, I don't get to this board much any more. I just started the thread and find it fascinating. I just turned to page 8, and now I see there are FORTY TWO pages of posts. Wow. Anyone got the Cliffs Notes version?! >>
Here you go:
For 1970s, BBCE has dried up. Some hold out hope that Steve is amassing product for the National. Pricing is way up. Many people are priced out of 1970s.
BBCE is also somewhat dried up for early 1980s product (thanks MintMoonDog - hah!). Is 1980-86 the next product group to take a huge jump in price? Some say yes - relative price to product just a few years older makes it look like a bargain. Some say no - too much produced; not enough registry collectors; lack big-dollar PSA 10 cards you see in 1970s product. Some see 1980s product dropping in value and the recent price increases are a reflection of either herd mentality and/or panic on missing out on the "next big thing."
Should BBCE be selling PSA-graded packs? They don't self-submit packs. Packs sold are purchased on open market and resold. BBCE only authenticates packs; they do not tell PSA what grade to give a pack. Some see a conflict of interest. Most are willing to accept any perceived conflict because of Steve's reputation.
Also discussed: when new product hits BBCE, BBG's sale of wrappers and gum, some recent pick-ups, and some off-topic mentions.
<< <i>
<< <i>So, I don't get to this board much any more. I just started the thread and find it fascinating. I just turned to page 8, and now I see there are FORTY TWO pages of posts. Wow. Anyone got the Cliffs Notes version?! >>
Here you go:
For 1970s, BBCE has dried up. Some hold out hope that Steve is amassing product for the National. Pricing is way up. Many people are priced out of 1970s.
BBCE is also somewhat dried up for early 1980s product (thanks MintMoonDog - hah!). Is 1980-86 the next product group to take a huge jump in price? Some say yes - relative price to product just a few years older makes it look like a bargain. Some say no - too much produced; not enough registry collectors; lack big-dollar PSA 10 cards you see in 1970s product. Some see 1980s product dropping in value and the recent price increases are a reflection of either herd mentality and/or panic on missing out on the "next big thing."
Should BBCE be selling PSA-graded packs? They don't self-submit packs. Packs sold are purchased on open market and resold. BBCE only authenticates packs; they do not tell PSA what grade to give a pack. Some see a conflict of interest. Most are willing to accept any perceived conflict because of Steve's reputation.
Also discussed: when new product hits BBCE, BBG's sale of wrappers and gum, some recent pick-ups, and some off-topic mentions. >>
Pretty well stated. And Steve did confirm he is holding (at least some) product for the National.
To be honest, no direction, but...
1966-69 Topps EX+
1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9
All Topps Heritage-Master Sets