Steve better start holding stuff back for the National because the boxes can't stay on his website for 24 hours. Seeing that the show is coming up in less than two months he should be able to have some really nice material for sale then.
Looking for high grade rookie cards and unopened boxes/cases
<< <i>So, I don't get to this board much any more. I just started the thread and find it fascinating. I just turned to page 8, and now I see there are FORTY TWO pages of posts. Wow. Anyone got the Cliffs Notes version?! >>
It started as a thread about BBCE and then morphed into a more general discussion about a lot of topics pertaining to unopened material.
If you have the time to wade through it there's a lot of good info in here mixed in with speculation.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
<< <i>So you're saying that he prefers selling at the National to selling to his usual and preferred customers?
I kinda doubt that's his objective. >>
i think you need to adjust your perception of what his "objective" might be.
it's not just about selling at the National at the expense of providing some of his presumably most active customers a break or a first look.
this is the biggest show of the year, with the most diversified and deep-pocketed bunch of folks around to look at everything there is on the planet in sports and beyond.
if we pooled our cash and offered Steve 25% above his proposed retail prices to sell out and shut down BBCE at the National, do you think he'd do it?
where would that leave the usual and preferred customers who intend to deal with him at the show?
<< <i> is the biggest show of the year, with the most diversified and deep-pocketed bunch of folks around to look at everything there is on the planet in sports and beyond. >>
Expanding his customer base must be important.....
I think Steve is holding out for some of his finer products at the National not because they are his best customer. Lets be honest, we are his best I believe , but because he has a reputation to uphold as the best in vintage unopened. If he showed up there with wax boxes of the laste 80's and above, what will make his set up any different than all the other 500+ or so tables? Plus, he can probably get more in person once the buyer sees what a true beauty those wax boxes are sitting right there in front of them. Then they start thinking "I gotta have it" and so theyre willing to pay more and BBCE is in the business to make money. Not only that but if hes already working the show and is selling product, that means he doesnt have to pay for shipping cost either. All about the benjamins.
It's a balancing act for every business: the needs of the existing good customers versus attracting new customers.
But I don't believe he's holding out more than he has to at the National because all you rabid, insane and ate-up unopened collectors on this forum are his best customers and should be his #1 priority!
Is that clearer?
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
<< <i>Matty, you just purchased a super high dollar card in an SGC holder. Are you familiar with Dave Forman's role and reputation in the hobby? I'll say it again: I'd cross it. If you have some spare time, check out this link: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=113951 ..and definitely follow the link in post #4. >>
Interesting read, I did not know any of that. Thanks for sharing this.
This thread is a very enjoyable and informative read.
There are actually a good number of reputable dealers out there, and they all seem to be "drying up". This will lead to those looking to take advantage of the increasingly demanding situation. So it's no surprise that many question the appropriateness of Steve Hart selling grading packs.
On the one hand, since everyone trusts Steve it should be fine for him to sell packs he authenticates. Whether or not it's in a holder, if Steve says it's good we trust him. Then there's the other hand, where some question the ethics of the situation no matter how well Steve is trusted.
Personally, I don't think Steve or anyone else that works for PSA, either part time or full time, should be able to sell PSA authenticated and/or graded memorabilia. It's a conflict of interest and I think we want operations as important as the Baseball Card Exchange to be clean of such questionable activities.
Here's the way I look at it. I don't care if there were 1,000 unopened case of say, 1977 Topps hiding somewhere throughout the country in varying locations. Guess what, I can't find an unopened rack or wax box right now. Same with about everything from 1980 and prior. And something is going on with 81 - 85 now.
If you can't find the goods, or it's stashed somewhere you can't have, prices will rise. And it just as well be rare, or all opened for that matter.
And it seems that when a hoard is uncovered, prices don't drop now. The Conlon collection seemed to make 1975 wax boxes "hold" right around $1,200 for a while. And that really didn't last long either, now that they're pushing $2 grand.
Naysayers keep saying there's plenty still out there but prices keep rising and product keeps getting tougher to find/purchase. Most of the naysayers have rather limited knowledge about unopened product to begin with, too, which is rather interesting, as well.
Will unopened cases and boxes of 1970s product suddenly come pouring forth from secret closets and hidden storage units in the years to come? I suppose anything is possible, and the Mets may win the World Series in the next couple of years, too, but I wouldn't bet on either, lol..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Will unopened cases and boxes of 1970s product suddenly come pouring forth from secret closets and hidden storage units in the years to come? I suppose anything is possible, and the Mets may win the World Series in the next couple of years, too, but I wouldn't bet on either, lol.. >>
Wouldn't people who had cases of 1970s unopened product that they were willing to part with have already done so? It just doesn't seem likely that there's a lot of it out there in that quantity but I'm sure there are still plenty of single wax boxes to be had someday if you summed them all up. But those are only going to hit the market in a dribble and won't even be noticeable.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
Over the last decade or two Copeland, Branca, Halper, Dreier, Nagy, Carter and now Fogel have all decided to sell off their collections, as have many others. It will all come up on the market at some point.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>Personally, I don't think Steve or anyone else that works for PSA, either part time or full time, should be able to sell PSA authenticated and/or graded memorabilia >>
Actually, if you want to go this route....PSA needs Steve more than Steve needs PSA.....the correct statement "I don't think PSA or anyone else that slabs packs, either part time or full time, should be able to while Steve is authenticating packs" He's sorta got that Chuck Norris thing going now.
The issue, as I see it, is that we have a bunch of different people talking about a bunch of different topics. It seems to have become common for the discussion to include all forms of unopened from the 1970s through the 1980s. Most seem to not be talking about specifics, just generalized unopened. This is a massive mistake. There are gargantuan differences between late-70s/early-80s/mid-80s/late-80s. Anyone that tries to draw any kind of correlation between all those different groups is on a fool's errand. We're talking about a time period where the hobby absolutely exploded and we saw 100% production increases multiple times over.
I expect that the majority of the hype about 1970s unopened is, for the most part, true. There may even be an uptick in early-80s (1980-1982) as people see the writing on the wall and rush to add things to their collection while they believe they still can. There will always be more unopened from this period compared to the late-70s because of the 1981 boom.
Where I think the argument breaks down is in the 1984-1986 time period. As big of a boom as there was in 1981 there was another one in this time period. I'm not seeing anything in this material that puts it in the same ballpark as the earlier ones. What I believe is happening is that we're seeing the generation of kids who bought those packs grow up, become stable in their careers, increase their disposable income, and get excited that there's even the slightest inclination that the stuff they bought as a kid which has been considered grotesquely overproduced for decades might somehow now be a hobby darling. While I understand the sentiment, I don't see anything in the way of facts to suggest it's true. There was simply too much of this product produced and the current prices back this up.
Any discussion in this thread suggesting that 1987-1989 is getting more difficult to find is just ludicrous. I don't feel the need to even comment further.
Are there smaller niche unopened products in these time periods that are difficult to find? Undoubtedly. But I think we're talking about a handful of items and they're not widely sought after. For the most part, they're desirable for true unopened collectors -- people whose concern is the item in the unopened state as its own entity and less about the value of the cards inside (wrapper variations, oddball product, test issues, etc.)
The great thing about BBCE is that anyone can buy a product with complete confidence that it's unopened and unsearched. The bad thing about BBCE is that many people don't seem inclined to educate themselves about unopened and are just diving in without doing any research. That's never a good thing. This has happened in the past and those people get burned when they expand beyond their comfort zone. I'd much rather see a thread discussing what to look for in various forms and issues of unopened product than a thread where amateur speculators hype up whatever corner of the hobby they're currently collecting. I'm not sure it would even do any good though. We've seen on many occasions Tim discuss the distribution pattern of rack packs and what cells certain cards should appear in only to find that info fall on seemingly deaf ears as countless threads pop up questioning obviously fake rack packs on venues like ebay.
Where I think the argument breaks down is in the 1984-1986 time period. As big of a boom as there was in 1981 there was another one in this time period. I'm not seeing anything in this material that puts it in the same ballpark as the earlier ones. What I believe is happening is that we're seeing the generation of kids who bought those packs grow up, become stable in their careers, increase their disposable income, and get excited that there's even the slightest inclination that the stuff they bought as a kid which has been considered grotesquely overproduced for decades might somehow now be a hobby darling. While I understand the sentiment, I don't see anything in the way of facts to suggest it's true. There was simply too much of this product produced and the current prices back this up. >>
But I think that is part of the equation: that collectors in those eras are coming to a point with a more stable career with disposable income are "buying back" their childhood hobbies. They may not relate to the 60's and 70's in the same way others do. While it might be a "better investment", there is a higher probability their interest lies in the stars they grew up with. Which accounts for Mattingly, Murphy, Gooden, etc., all these non-HOF'ers who still hold value in the market despite their ineligibility to make it into the Hall.
Coupled with PSA, Registry, and just general fun and you do get that uptick. I am not saying they are rare by any means. Certainly not 1987 onwards, however, there certainly seems to be an increase in demand at the very least. This may have less to do with late 70's drying up and more to do with a new group of collector's who are from those time periods. I speak on that part because I personally relate better to the 80's cards than the 70's which is why I collect them more. This is not to say I dont want a George Brett rookie or a box of 75 mini's, but thats not what my collecting goals are at this time.
Nationals cant come soon enough. It is getting so bad that when I check the 1970s offerings on BBCE I occasionally look at the fleer stickers and start thinking...
<< <i>Nationals cant come soon enough. It is getting so bad that when I check the 1970s offerings on BBCE I occasionally look at the fleer stickers and start thinking... >>
Dude, I'm so glad to read this. I've been so disconsolate that I've actually contemplated that '71 pack so I can tat my ass up like an NBA player for a few days.
<< <i>Where I think the argument breaks down is in the 1984-1986 time period. As big of a boom as there was in 1981 there was another one in this time period. I'm not seeing anything in this material that puts it in the same ballpark as the earlier ones. What I believe is happening is that we're seeing the generation of kids who bought those packs grow up, become stable in their careers, increase their disposable income, and get excited that there's even the slightest inclination that the stuff they bought as a kid which has been considered grotesquely overproduced for decades might somehow now be a hobby darling. While I understand the sentiment, I don't see anything in the way of facts to suggest it's true. There was simply too much of this product produced and the current prices back this up.
Any discussion in this thread suggesting that 1987-1989 is getting more difficult to find is just ludicrous. I don't feel the need to even comment further. . >>
For a few of the basic sets that have only 1 or no potential HOFs AND are not condition sensitive enough to make an exciting and challenging chase for a Gem Mint card AND are still plentiful in unopened CASE form, I will agree with your statements here. So I am talking about 1987 Topps and Fleer, and 1988 Topps and Fleer, and maybe 1989 Topps, and 1990 Fleer and Donruss in baseball as well. Everything else in baseball from 1986 to 1990, and the other sports as well, has enough going for it to make it desirable in the foreseeable future. And that stuff is undoubtedly becoming difficult to find in unopened case form, so it is also drying up. Then, when you get into the early 1990s, you have to remember that everything was turning into a premium type product with price tags of $30+ per box when they came out. And the companies really started limiting direct sales to only those who could prove they owned a retail card shop. These factors make it less likely that that product was hoarded - which is why I think you almost never see an unopened case of something like 1992 Series 2 basketball in any brand. They are just not out there. So there is still plenty of unopened, post-1985 product worth chasing.
I also don't think people who comment on here about mid-1980s to early 1990s wax are suggesting that prices will eventually reach $20+ per pack like 1970s wax, but they certainly have the potential to double or triple in value from their current prices.
<< <i>I personally relate better to the 80's cards than the 70's which is why I collect them more. This is not to say I dont want a George Brett rookie or a box of 75 mini's, but thats not what my collecting goals are at this time. >>
There are people that really want 80s and early 90s-- even the junk wax. That's why, despite what Reggie Cleveland says about abundance of product, BBCE doesn't have 1988, 1990, 1991 Topps baseball racks for sale. They cannot be bought in sufficient quantity at a decent price to turn around for a profit. The demand has outstripped supply. Just try to find a wax case of 1991 Topps and tell me what you can get it for. Not gonna be $160 any more. Even on eBAY.
Then there's the rare and impossible to find 1989 Topps Baseball Michigan test packs. I have 4 boxes left, but at $10,000 per box it's not affordable for you guys.
But honestly it's amazing what shows up from time to time. I just talked today to a guy that I buy from who had two 1981 Topps Baseball vendor cases just walk in off the street. He might sell me an entire case, so what's a good price per box and per case for 1981 these days? Bueller.... anyone?
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
Selling prices are the best indicator that product in unopened form is becoming more popular and more difficult to find at the same time. Take a look at what this 1983 Topps Stickers box just sold for after only being up on ebay for a few days. Two years ago, you could find plenty of boxes and unopened cases of those sitting on ebay unsold month after month for $8 per box. Now, the few that show up get gobbled up almost immediately - just as Steve described with his stock.
<< <i>Over the last decade or two Copeland, Branca, Halper, Dreier, Nagy, Carter and now Fogel have all decided to sell off their collections, as have many others. It will all come up on the market at some point. >>
Maybe. But I doubt in the quantity we have seen in the past. For example, the 1975 mini product from the Conlon collection that was sold in 2009 has either been opened or dispersed pretty well. I would be surprised you will see anything like the quantities of the past. As time goes by, it will get even harder to find. Even now in 2013, some of the packs from the Conlon collection are being opened. Just as recent as a couple weeks ago is my guess. I agree it won't be rare but definitely tougher to find, with great demand, and priced higher.
I don't believe there has been an auction sale (eBay or other) of a 1971 Topps baseball wax box in three years. Three years! No idea how long it's been since a cello box was sold. I can hardly even locate a single graded pack (I need a 4th series - please help!).
<< <i>I don't believe there has been an auction sale (eBay or other) of a 1971 Topps baseball wax box in three years. Three years! No idea how long it's been since a cello box was sold. I can hardly even locate a single graded pack (I need a 4th series - please help!). >>
The closest I came was buying a 1971 cello box with 3 unopened packs and the empty boxes about a decade ago. Individual 1971 cello packs are hard to come by and I doubt a full box has been available for sale in the last 10-15 years.
<< <i>I don't believe there has been an auction sale (eBay or other) of a 1971 Topps baseball wax box in three years. Three years! No idea how long it's been since a cello box was sold. I can hardly even locate a single graded pack (I need a 4th series - please help!). >>
The closest I came was buying a 1971 cello box with 3 unopened packs and the empty boxes about a decade ago. Individual 1971 cello packs are hard to come by and I doubt a full box has been available for sale in the last 10-15 years. >>
<< <i>I am pretty sure vending boxes/cases from 1981 run for $60/$1500 retail. >>
Thanks. That gives me a starting point.
Seller has two sealed 1981 cases. He cracked the first one so we could inspect and they appeared to be unsearched but vending boxes can be tough to eyeball that way.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
<< <i>I am pretty sure vending boxes/cases from 1981 run for $60/$1500 retail. >>
Thanks. That gives me a starting point.
Seller has two sealed 1981 cases. He cracked the first one so we could inspect and they appeared to be unsearched but vending boxes can be tough to eyeball that way. >>
So did you pick them up? I just bought a vending 1981 box from Steve at $55.
CURRENT PROJECTS IN WORK: To be honest, no direction, but... 1966-69 Topps EX+ 1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9 All Topps Heritage-Master Sets
I bought the 1981 Topps case for $500 including tax (no shipping), couldn't say no to that price. Bought from original owner and still in the original case with his shipping address. We've all heard that one before though.
The guy I bought these from has about 12 more 1981 vending boxes, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 1980 vending boxes. He does want much more for the 1980 so we'll see how that negotiaton goes.
I guess you can say that I'm all in now.
I've always liked the player selection in this 1981 set but overall I'm not very knowedgable about it so that's gonna change fast.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
<< <i>I bought the 1981 Topps case for $500 including tax (no shipping), couldn't say no to that price. Bought from original owner and still in the original case with his shipping address. We've all heard that one before though.
The guy I bought these from has about 12 more 1981 vending boxes, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 1980 vending boxes. He does want much more for the 1980 so we'll see how that negotiaton goes.
I guess you can say that I'm all in now.
I've always liked the player selection in this 1981 set but overall I'm not very knowedgable about it so that's gonna change fast. >>
Nice pick up! I bought a couple 81 vending cases a couple months ago, and I'll tell you I paid a lot more than $500!
I was just lucky and in the right place at the right time. And the owner was in the mood to sell it.
He's been trying to find unopened material for me and these just walked in the door recently.
Which brings up a good topic for discussion. I know everyone likes BBCE, Fritsch and others for unopened material. And rightly so with their reuputation and product knowledge. I just bought a rack case from BBCE earlier this week.
But don't forget the shops. These guys get a tremendous amount of product coming in their doors and with the number of shops dwindling -- have their pick of the litter so to speak. So if you can forge a good relationship with a shop owner you might get lucky once in a while just by being there.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
<< <i>I bought the 1981 Topps case for $500 including tax (no shipping), couldn't say no to that price. Bought from original owner and still in the original case with his shipping address. We've all heard that one before though.
The guy I bought these from has about 12 more 1981 vending boxes, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 1980 vending boxes. He does want much more for the 1980 so we'll see how that negotiaton goes.
I guess you can say that I'm all in now.
I've always liked the player selection in this 1981 set but overall I'm not very knowedgable about it so that's gonna change fast. >>
Obviously 24 boxes are more than one collector should be allowed to have LOL.
If they're nice I might even be able to score the other dozen that the owner still has at his shop and share the wealth but at this point I"m not going to make any promises.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
Dave, great job on scoring the '81 vending case. I have at least a couple of 80's vending still sealed, but I've actually opened other ones from the 70's I've purchased in the past to build some of my raw sets. I don't consider them unopened so it is o.k. in my book.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>Dave, great job on scoring the '81 vending case. I have at least a couple of 80's vending still sealed, but I've actually opened other ones from the 70's I've purchased in the past to build some of my raw sets. I don't consider them unopened so it is o.k. in my book. >>
As y'all know by now I'm not an unopened collector so I'll be going through them the next month or so, hoping to find some good gradable examples.
There are some really good possibilities in this set -- I can see that already.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
<< <i>Dave, great job on scoring the '81 vending case. I have at least a couple of 80's vending still sealed, but I've actually opened other ones from the 70's I've purchased in the past to build some of my raw sets. I don't consider them unopened so it is o.k. in my book. >>
As y'all know by now I'm not an unopened collector so I'll be going through them the next month or so, hoping to find some good gradable examples.
There are some really good possibilities in this set -- I can see that already. >>
I just want to warn you that the reason there are so many possibilities and low pops for this year is that 1981 vending in particular can be a HUGE letdown. Not at the level of 1975 mini but the soft corners don't hold up too well in vending for this year. Best of luck!
And I would like to add to the comments below that the centering and miscut cards can be a real let down. I love this set, but Topps really had their quality issues.
CURRENT PROJECTS IN WORK: To be honest, no direction, but... 1966-69 Topps EX+ 1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9 All Topps Heritage-Master Sets
The good thing is that you'll have a fair number of shots at getting that elusive Fernando PSA 10 rookie. It would be good to see pics of what you mine from the case
i think you'll have a fun rip, but as has been mentioned, the conditions can be brutal. But on the bright side, you paid about half of current market value
Big Fan of: HOF Post War RC, Graded RCs WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
<< <i>The good thing is that you'll have a fair number of shots at getting that elusive Fernando PSA 10 rookie. It would be good to see pics of what you mine from the case >>
Too bad Dimitri Young isn't still collecting rookies. Somebody could get a huge payoff for a PSA 10 of that card.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
<< <i>The good thing is that you'll have a fair number of shots at getting that elusive Fernando PSA 10 rookie. It would be good to see pics of what you mine from the case >>
Too bad Dimitri Young isn't still collecting rookies. Somebody could get a huge payoff for a PSA 10 of that card. >>
Actually, as he was discussing the sale of his collection, he said his pursuit of the Valenzuela in a PSA 10 will still continue.
<< <i>The good thing is that you'll have a fair number of shots at getting that elusive Fernando PSA 10 rookie. It would be good to see pics of what you mine from the case >>
Too bad Dimitri Young isn't still collecting rookies. Somebody could get a huge payoff for a PSA 10 of that card. >>
Actually, as he was discussing the sale of his collection, he said his pursuit of the Valenzuela in a PSA 10 will still continue. >>
It does appear that this card is truly the white whale for a number of collectors.
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the PSA 10 collector he didn't exist.
Comments
I kinda doubt that's his objective.
DaveB in St.Louis
<< <i>So, I don't get to this board much any more. I just started the thread and find it fascinating. I just turned to page 8, and now I see there are FORTY TWO pages of posts. Wow. Anyone got the Cliffs Notes version?! >>
It started as a thread about BBCE and then morphed into a more general discussion about a lot of topics pertaining to
unopened material.
If you have the time to wade through it there's a lot of good info in here mixed in with speculation.
DaveB in St.Louis
<< <i>So you're saying that he prefers selling at the National to selling to his usual and preferred customers?
I kinda doubt that's his objective. >>
i think you need to adjust your perception of what his "objective" might be.
it's not just about selling at the National at the expense of providing some of his presumably most active customers a break or a first look.
this is the biggest show of the year, with the most diversified and deep-pocketed bunch of folks around to look at everything there is on the planet in sports and beyond.
if we pooled our cash and offered Steve 25% above his proposed retail prices to sell out and shut down BBCE at the National, do you think he'd do it?
where would that leave the usual and preferred customers who intend to deal with him at the show?
<< <i> is the biggest show of the year, with the most diversified and deep-pocketed bunch of folks around to look at everything there is on the planet in sports and beyond. >>
Expanding his customer base must be important.....
You can't be the top unopened dealer in the country and show up empty handed to the big dance either.
He has a reputation to uphold.
versus attracting new customers.
But I don't believe he's holding out more than he has to at the National
because all you rabid, insane and ate-up unopened collectors on this
forum are his best customers and should be his #1 priority!
Is that clearer?
DaveB in St.Louis
<< <i>Matty, you just purchased a super high dollar card in an SGC holder. Are you familiar with Dave Forman's role and reputation in the hobby? I'll say it again: I'd cross it. If you have some spare time, check out this link: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=113951 ..and definitely follow the link in post #4. >>
Interesting read, I did not know any of that. Thanks for sharing this.
There are actually a good number of reputable dealers out there, and they all seem to be "drying up". This will lead to those looking to take advantage of the increasingly demanding situation. So it's no surprise that many question the appropriateness of Steve Hart selling grading packs.
On the one hand, since everyone trusts Steve it should be fine for him to sell packs he authenticates. Whether or not it's in a holder, if Steve says it's good we trust him. Then there's the other hand, where some question the ethics of the situation no matter how well Steve is trusted.
Personally, I don't think Steve or anyone else that works for PSA, either part time or full time, should be able to sell PSA authenticated and/or graded memorabilia. It's a conflict of interest and I think we want operations as important as the Baseball Card Exchange to be clean of such questionable activities.
TF
suckers...
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
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If you can't find the goods, or it's stashed somewhere you can't have, prices will rise. And it just as well be rare, or all opened for that matter.
And it seems that when a hoard is uncovered, prices don't drop now. The Conlon collection seemed to make 1975 wax boxes "hold" right around $1,200 for a while. And that really didn't last long either, now that they're pushing $2 grand.
Will unopened cases and boxes of 1970s product suddenly come pouring forth from secret closets and hidden storage units in the years to come? I suppose anything is possible, and the Mets may win the World Series in the next couple of years, too, but I wouldn't bet on either, lol..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Will unopened cases and boxes of 1970s product suddenly come pouring forth from secret closets and hidden storage units in the years to come? I suppose anything is possible, and the Mets may win the World Series in the next couple of years, too, but I wouldn't bet on either, lol.. >>
Wouldn't people who had cases of 1970s unopened product that they were willing to part with have already done
so? It just doesn't seem likely that there's a lot of it out there in that quantity but I'm sure there are still plenty of
single wax boxes to be had someday if you summed them all up. But those are only going to hit the market in a dribble
and won't even be noticeable.
DaveB in St.Louis
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>Personally, I don't think Steve or anyone else that works for PSA, either part time or full time, should be able to sell PSA authenticated and/or graded memorabilia >>
Actually, if you want to go this route....PSA needs Steve more than Steve needs PSA.....the correct statement "I don't think PSA or anyone else that slabs packs, either part time or full time, should be able to while Steve is authenticating packs" He's sorta got that Chuck Norris thing going now.
I expect that the majority of the hype about 1970s unopened is, for the most part, true. There may even be an uptick in early-80s (1980-1982) as people see the writing on the wall and rush to add things to their collection while they believe they still can. There will always be more unopened from this period compared to the late-70s because of the 1981 boom.
Where I think the argument breaks down is in the 1984-1986 time period. As big of a boom as there was in 1981 there was another one in this time period. I'm not seeing anything in this material that puts it in the same ballpark as the earlier ones. What I believe is happening is that we're seeing the generation of kids who bought those packs grow up, become stable in their careers, increase their disposable income, and get excited that there's even the slightest inclination that the stuff they bought as a kid which has been considered grotesquely overproduced for decades might somehow now be a hobby darling. While I understand the sentiment, I don't see anything in the way of facts to suggest it's true. There was simply too much of this product produced and the current prices back this up.
Any discussion in this thread suggesting that 1987-1989 is getting more difficult to find is just ludicrous. I don't feel the need to even comment further.
Are there smaller niche unopened products in these time periods that are difficult to find? Undoubtedly. But I think we're talking about a handful of items and they're not widely sought after. For the most part, they're desirable for true unopened collectors -- people whose concern is the item in the unopened state as its own entity and less about the value of the cards inside (wrapper variations, oddball product, test issues, etc.)
The great thing about BBCE is that anyone can buy a product with complete confidence that it's unopened and unsearched. The bad thing about BBCE is that many people don't seem inclined to educate themselves about unopened and are just diving in without doing any research. That's never a good thing. This has happened in the past and those people get burned when they expand beyond their comfort zone. I'd much rather see a thread discussing what to look for in various forms and issues of unopened product than a thread where amateur speculators hype up whatever corner of the hobby they're currently collecting. I'm not sure it would even do any good though. We've seen on many occasions Tim discuss the distribution pattern of rack packs and what cells certain cards should appear in only to find that info fall on seemingly deaf ears as countless threads pop up questioning obviously fake rack packs on venues like ebay.
<< <i>
Where I think the argument breaks down is in the 1984-1986 time period. As big of a boom as there was in 1981 there was another one in this time period. I'm not seeing anything in this material that puts it in the same ballpark as the earlier ones. What I believe is happening is that we're seeing the generation of kids who bought those packs grow up, become stable in their careers, increase their disposable income, and get excited that there's even the slightest inclination that the stuff they bought as a kid which has been considered grotesquely overproduced for decades might somehow now be a hobby darling. While I understand the sentiment, I don't see anything in the way of facts to suggest it's true. There was simply too much of this product produced and the current prices back this up. >>
But I think that is part of the equation: that collectors in those eras are coming to a point with a more stable career with disposable income are "buying back" their childhood hobbies. They may not relate to the 60's and 70's in the same way others do. While it might be a "better investment", there is a higher probability their interest lies in the stars they grew up with. Which accounts for Mattingly, Murphy, Gooden, etc., all these non-HOF'ers who still hold value in the market despite their ineligibility to make it into the Hall.
Coupled with PSA, Registry, and just general fun and you do get that uptick. I am not saying they are rare by any means. Certainly not 1987 onwards, however, there certainly seems to be an increase in demand at the very least. This may have less to do with late 70's drying up and more to do with a new group of collector's who are from those time periods. I speak on that part because I personally relate better to the 80's cards than the 70's which is why I collect them more. This is not to say I dont want a George Brett rookie or a box of 75 mini's, but thats not what my collecting goals are at this time.
<< <i>Nationals cant come soon enough. It is getting so bad that when I check the 1970s offerings on BBCE I occasionally look at the fleer stickers and start thinking... >>
Dude, I'm so glad to read this. I've been so disconsolate that I've actually contemplated that '71 pack so I can tat my ass up like an NBA player for a few days.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
<< <i>Where I think the argument breaks down is in the 1984-1986 time period. As big of a boom as there was in 1981 there was another one in this time period. I'm not seeing anything in this material that puts it in the same ballpark as the earlier ones. What I believe is happening is that we're seeing the generation of kids who bought those packs grow up, become stable in their careers, increase their disposable income, and get excited that there's even the slightest inclination that the stuff they bought as a kid which has been considered grotesquely overproduced for decades might somehow now be a hobby darling. While I understand the sentiment, I don't see anything in the way of facts to suggest it's true. There was simply too much of this product produced and the current prices back this up.
Any discussion in this thread suggesting that 1987-1989 is getting more difficult to find is just ludicrous. I don't feel the need to even comment further.
. >>
For a few of the basic sets that have only 1 or no potential HOFs AND are not condition sensitive enough to make an exciting and challenging chase for a Gem Mint card AND are still plentiful in unopened CASE form, I will agree with your statements here. So I am talking about 1987 Topps and Fleer, and 1988 Topps and Fleer, and maybe 1989 Topps, and 1990 Fleer and Donruss in baseball as well. Everything else in baseball from 1986 to 1990, and the other sports as well, has enough going for it to make it desirable in the foreseeable future. And that stuff is undoubtedly becoming difficult to find in unopened case form, so it is also drying up. Then, when you get into the early 1990s, you have to remember that everything was turning into a premium type product with price tags of $30+ per box when they came out. And the companies really started limiting direct sales to only those who could prove they owned a retail card shop. These factors make it less likely that that product was hoarded - which is why I think you almost never see an unopened case of something like 1992 Series 2 basketball in any brand. They are just not out there. So there is still plenty of unopened, post-1985 product worth chasing.
I also don't think people who comment on here about mid-1980s to early 1990s wax are suggesting that prices will eventually reach $20+ per pack like 1970s wax, but they certainly have the potential to double or triple in value from their current prices.
<< <i>I personally relate better to the 80's cards than the 70's which is why I collect them more. This is not to say I dont want a George Brett rookie or a box of 75 mini's, but thats not what my collecting goals are at this time. >>
There are people that really want 80s and early 90s-- even the junk wax. That's why, despite what Reggie Cleveland says about abundance of
product, BBCE doesn't have 1988, 1990, 1991 Topps baseball racks for sale. They cannot be bought in sufficient quantity at a decent price to turn around for a profit. The demand has outstripped supply. Just try to find a wax case of 1991 Topps and tell me what you can get it for. Not gonna be $160 any more. Even on eBAY.
Then there's the rare and impossible to find 1989 Topps Baseball Michigan test packs. I have 4 boxes left,
but at $10,000 per box it's not affordable for you guys.
But honestly it's amazing what shows up from time to time. I just talked today to a guy that I buy from who
had two 1981 Topps Baseball vendor cases just walk in off the street. He might sell me an entire case, so
what's a good price per box and per case for 1981 these days? Bueller.... anyone?
DaveB in St.Louis
1983 Topps Sticker Box
<< <i>Over the last decade or two Copeland, Branca, Halper, Dreier, Nagy, Carter and now Fogel have all decided to sell off their collections, as have many others. It will all come up on the market at some point. >>
Maybe. But I doubt in the quantity we have seen in the past. For example, the 1975 mini product from the Conlon collection that was sold in 2009 has either been opened or dispersed pretty well. I
would be surprised you will see anything like the quantities of the past. As time goes by, it will get even harder to find. Even now in 2013, some of the packs from the Conlon collection are being opened.
Just as recent as a couple weeks ago is my guess.
aconte
<< <i>I don't believe there has been an auction sale (eBay or other) of a 1971 Topps baseball wax box in three years. Three years! No idea how long it's been since a cello box was sold. I can hardly even locate a single graded pack (I need a 4th series - please help!). >>
The closest I came was buying a 1971 cello box with 3 unopened packs and the empty boxes about a decade ago. Individual 1971 cello packs are hard to come by and I doubt a full box has been available for sale in the last 10-15 years.
<< <i>
<< <i>I don't believe there has been an auction sale (eBay or other) of a 1971 Topps baseball wax box in three years. Three years! No idea how long it's been since a cello box was sold. I can hardly even locate a single graded pack (I need a 4th series - please help!). >>
The closest I came was buying a 1971 cello box with 3 unopened packs and the empty boxes about a decade ago. Individual 1971 cello packs are hard to come by and I doubt a full box has been available for sale in the last 10-15 years. >>
Here is a partial box from a Huggins & Scott Auction in 2011
I hope so ...
not too sure about that. I think the interest in that lot was that they are all 4th series packs. But that is a strong price for 11 cello packs
<< <i>I am pretty sure vending boxes/cases from 1981 run for $60/$1500 retail. >>
Thanks. That gives me a starting point.
Seller has two sealed 1981 cases. He cracked the first one
so we could inspect and they appeared to be unsearched but
vending boxes can be tough to eyeball that way.
DaveB in St.Louis
<< <i>
<< <i>I am pretty sure vending boxes/cases from 1981 run for $60/$1500 retail. >>
Thanks. That gives me a starting point.
Seller has two sealed 1981 cases. He cracked the first one
so we could inspect and they appeared to be unsearched but
vending boxes can be tough to eyeball that way. >>
So did you pick them up? I just bought a vending 1981 box from Steve at $55.
To be honest, no direction, but...
1966-69 Topps EX+
1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9
All Topps Heritage-Master Sets
<< <i>So did you pick them up? I just bought a vending 1981 box from Steve at $55. >>
Not yet -- we're still negotiating. I'm definitely going to pick up some but the question
may be how many. LOL
What did you think of the quality of your 1981 cards? Centering, etc.?
I'm mostly a wax and rack guy so the vending thing is totally new to me.
DaveB in St.Louis
couldn't say no to that price. Bought from original owner and still in the
original case with his shipping address. We've all heard that one before though.
The guy I bought these from has about 12 more 1981 vending boxes,
and somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 1980 vending boxes. He does
want much more for the 1980 so we'll see how that negotiaton goes.
I guess you can say that I'm all in now.
I've always liked the player selection in this 1981 set but overall I'm not very
knowedgable about it so that's gonna change fast.
DaveB in St.Louis
<< <i>I bought the 1981 Topps case for $500 including tax (no shipping),
couldn't say no to that price. Bought from original owner and still in the
original case with his shipping address. We've all heard that one before though.
The guy I bought these from has about 12 more 1981 vending boxes,
and somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 1980 vending boxes. He does
want much more for the 1980 so we'll see how that negotiaton goes.
I guess you can say that I'm all in now.
I've always liked the player selection in this 1981 set but overall I'm not very
knowedgable about it so that's gonna change fast. >>
Nice pick up! I bought a couple 81 vending cases a couple months ago, and I'll tell you I paid a lot more than $500!
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
He's been trying to find unopened material for me and these just walked in the door recently.
Which brings up a good topic for discussion. I know everyone likes BBCE, Fritsch and others for
unopened material. And rightly so with their reuputation and product knowledge. I just bought
a rack case from BBCE earlier this week.
But don't forget the shops. These guys get a tremendous amount of product coming in their
doors and with the number of shops dwindling -- have their pick of the litter so to speak.
So if you can forge a good relationship with a shop owner you might get lucky once in a while just by
being there.
DaveB in St.Louis
<< <i>I bought the 1981 Topps case for $500 including tax (no shipping),
couldn't say no to that price. Bought from original owner and still in the
original case with his shipping address. We've all heard that one before though.
The guy I bought these from has about 12 more 1981 vending boxes,
and somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 1980 vending boxes. He does
want much more for the 1980 so we'll see how that negotiaton goes.
I guess you can say that I'm all in now.
I've always liked the player selection in this 1981 set but overall I'm not very
knowedgable about it so that's gonna change fast. >>
Nice!
WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
<< <i>Are any of the 81s for sale? >>
I haven't thought that far ahead.
Obviously 24 boxes are more than one collector should be allowed to have LOL.
If they're nice I might even be able to score the other dozen that the owner
still has at his shop and share the wealth but at this point I"m not going to
make any promises.
DaveB in St.Louis
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>Dave, great job on scoring the '81 vending case. I have at least a couple of 80's vending still sealed, but I've actually opened other ones from the 70's I've purchased in the past to build some of my raw sets. I don't consider them unopened so it is o.k. in my book.
As y'all know by now I'm not an unopened collector so I'll be going through them the next month or so,
hoping to find some good gradable examples.
There are some really good possibilities in this set -- I can see that already.
DaveB in St.Louis
<< <i>
<< <i>Dave, great job on scoring the '81 vending case. I have at least a couple of 80's vending still sealed, but I've actually opened other ones from the 70's I've purchased in the past to build some of my raw sets. I don't consider them unopened so it is o.k. in my book.
As y'all know by now I'm not an unopened collector so I'll be going through them the next month or so,
hoping to find some good gradable examples.
There are some really good possibilities in this set -- I can see that already. >>
I just want to warn you that the reason there are so many possibilities and low pops for this year is that 1981 vending in particular can be a HUGE letdown. Not at the level of 1975 mini but the soft corners don't hold up too well in vending for this year. Best of luck!
To be honest, no direction, but...
1966-69 Topps EX+
1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9
All Topps Heritage-Master Sets
DaveB in St.Louis
WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
<< <i>The good thing is that you'll have a fair number of shots at getting that elusive Fernando PSA 10 rookie. It would be good to see pics of what you mine from the case >>
Too bad Dimitri Young isn't still collecting rookies. Somebody could get a huge payoff for a PSA 10 of that card.
DaveB in St.Louis
<< <i>
<< <i>The good thing is that you'll have a fair number of shots at getting that elusive Fernando PSA 10 rookie. It would be good to see pics of what you mine from the case >>
Too bad Dimitri Young isn't still collecting rookies. Somebody could get a huge payoff for a PSA 10 of that card. >>
Actually, as he was discussing the sale of his collection, he said his pursuit of the Valenzuela in a PSA 10 will still continue.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The good thing is that you'll have a fair number of shots at getting that elusive Fernando PSA 10 rookie. It would be good to see pics of what you mine from the case >>
Too bad Dimitri Young isn't still collecting rookies. Somebody could get a huge payoff for a PSA 10 of that card. >>
Actually, as he was discussing the sale of his collection, he said his pursuit of the Valenzuela in a PSA 10 will still continue. >>
It does appear that this card is truly the white whale for a number of collectors.
DaveB in St.Louis