@jerseycat101 said:
I think the focus of this thread should remain on DL Hansen's pursuit of the finest collection of all time. Any commentary on CAC or registries should go elsewhere.
I try not to ever limit what someone has to say about a topic (so long that it is not slanderous). I have seen a move towards CAC coins in Mr. Hansen's collection and I think those are fair comments. For instance, interesting observations would be how often is he replacing a coin at the same grade with one that is CAC? What percentage of his coins are CAC and does it differ by series? Does he ever downgrade for a CAC coin? etc. That is why I think trying to limit discussion where CAC is a taboo topic is not helpful. If someone makes a comment that I think is outside the focus of a thread then I ignore it. Who knows, maybe I am wrong and others see its merits.
I beg to firmly differ on Hansen ever having the finest collection of all time-that title goes Simpson. Delloy will have the most complete (although he has no Patterns which Eliasberg did). He for sure will have on of the greatest collection ever-he can't have the finest simply because of what Simpson owns (Simpson has more coins over $1 million than any one ever).
With the kind of money he has....a curator and a whole team of people dedicated to his goal. This is not your normal coin collector accumulating a piece here or there. He has a goal to accumulate the best of the best across the board and an unlimited bankroll. He has full time spotters and now a piece of the action at David Lawrence which will provide him an opportunity to scalp some more deals. If he wants something there is no haggle...he buys it. If your smarter than he is you will figure out the best of what he needs, buy it and sell it back to him at whatever number you want. Ezmoney!
Well, as much as I wish this was the case, it certainly isn't. There isn't really a "team" working through this, as we all have other jobs that ultimately pay the bills...Yes, every major dealer in the hobby continues to look for coins that fit his collection, but I would argue that 30% of the coins we are offered ultimately get purchased. We haggle to get prices that we all consider "fair". This isn't about enriching coin dealers or collectors, but a seriously interested collector with massive goals...but I'm sure there will ultimately be some holes in the set due to some situations that will likely not work out.
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
This is a very observant quote! Unfortunately the Registry Sets have some fallacies, but they do the best that they can...ultimately we plan on keeping the sets visible and eventually turning it into an online museum...
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
@specialist said:
I beg to firmly differ on Hansen ever having the finest collection of all time-that title goes Simpson. Delloy will have the most complete (although he has no Patterns which Eliasberg did). He for sure will have on of the greatest collection ever-he can't have the finest simply because of what Simpson owns (Simpson has more coins over $1 million than any one ever).
Well, part of the fun is going to be in the argument of what/who is the greatest of all time. Some say Jordan, some say Lebron (I'd vote neither)...some say Babe Ruth (they are right) - some say Mays...I say Hansen (because it's wider ranging), you say Simpson because of the Patterns and some really rare coins. Who is right here? It depends on the criteria. However, in the end, as long as we can agree they Peyton is the greatest QB (college and pro) all-time, we can still be friends.
As for patterns: Dell Loy actually does have some patterns and a nice collection of Ancient Roman coins as well as some non-Registry items...but, few actually know exactly what is in there...
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
@specialist said:
I beg to firmly differ on Hansen ever having the finest collection of all time-that title goes Simpson. Delloy will have the most complete (although he has no Patterns which Eliasberg did). He for sure will have on of the greatest collection ever-he can't have the finest simply because of what Simpson owns (Simpson has more coins over $1 million than any one ever).
I specifically used the word "pursuit". Perhaps once he is done his complete 1792-present collection, maybe he'll dabble in patterns and rarities and make his collection the finest ever.
I agree with Gazes in that this thread is mainly to see what DLH is buying, upgrading and perhaps selling. Until all of the coins are entered and CAC is noted we cannot speculate too much. Jb will tell us when this is. I will TRY to lessen my intensity for CAC but I,have to rant here and there due to the dubious nature of the coin business. For the most part CAC is to
PCGS as PCGS is to NGC
Back to DLH
Most collectors start one way, but sooner or later change their thoughts, ideas, focus or buying patterns. That is normal. I did after many years. Since DLH has most coins, of is
he now looking to,upgrade everything or does he fancy certain series? Is he now buying mostly CAC and paying the price? I have no,idea.
We will see.
@Perfection said: "I have posted the following many times: CAC is always correct. They see something they do not like when they do not sticker a coin. Is the coin still the grade is the question. Some people say it is. I,on the other hand say, who cares! Are there not enough CAC coins to buy to even worry about the others?
I jumped the gun here and was going to give you a Big Fat Disagree although you must be a wealthy, famous, knowledgeable, collector or numismatist! However, in ONE WAY your statement cannot be argued with: "CAC is always correct." That's because a "world-class" numismatic authority has put his sticker on the coin based on a standard he backs up! Therefore, CAC cannot be wrong.
However, from my standpoint and that of others based on OUR standards (which a good for nothing except taking up "airtime"), this statement that CAC is never wrong is nonsense!
To. Clarify, sure they are not correct all the time. No one is. But to reiterate, CAC sees something on coin they do not like so they do not sticker it. Sure people will disagree.
However unless it is an extreme rarity why buy a non cac coin? Can’t we find enough coins we like that are cac? Let’s be blunt. Over grading is a joke. The majority of people reading this believe NGC grades are for the most part one too high compared to PCGS. Their sales prices reflect this. So going forward and to be very generous, perhaps 60% of non CAC PCGS coins are over graded. Of course I think much more. As the years pass more and more collectors want cac coins. Unless PCGS changes their business model they continue to get closer to an NGC
Back to DLH"............... Gazes will tell us in time if he has put more emphasis on CAC.
Lastly, keep in mind there are many more people that want the best or the perceived best.
Perfection - You must know CAC does not sticker “modern coins “ nor Colonials.
That leaves at least 10 - 15% of the Hansen collection unstickerable.
How come no one mentioned Eliasberg or Pogue. I heard Mr. Hansen is trying to have a better quality collection than. Eliasberg.
If there is one thing we can all agree on is that Mr. Hansen will probably spend more money on his collection than has ever been spent on any coin collection.
This weekend the Hansen watch thread reached 10K. Thanks to all the watchers and also to the people that has contributed along the way. Perfection has shared many of his thoughts around the CAC designation. Thanks for sharing. John B. dropped in several times. It is always good to hear from him and the insights that he adds. I hope he continue to share. There are many others that I really appreciate your contributions. Just as a reminder, the purpose of this thread is to watch the quest to challenge Eliasberg. I know from time to time the Hansen Collection is compared to other present day collections. There no limits in this discussion, just keep in mind the overall purpose, which is not to be disparaging to any other collections. There are many other great collections out there.
There were a couple Register Sets that Hansen purchased in private transactions in the last few weeks. In comparing the Hansen endeavor to Eliasberg, you would take note that Eliasberg started his collection with a large set purchase. In other words, he did not build his collection one coin at a time. Eliasberg PCGS Bio describes the purchase this way: Eliasberg's largest and most important purchase occurred in 1942 when he purchased the Clapp Estate Collection through Stack's for $100,000. The Clapp Collection had been built first by J.M. Clapp from the 1880s through his death in 1906, and then his son John H. Clapp from 1906 on. The Clapp Collection was not only nearly complete, it contained coins of extraordinary quality, including spectacular quality coins that J.M. Clapp had acquired directly from each of the Mints in the year of issue from 1892 to 1906. Louis Eliasberg added the Clapp Collection to his, then expanded it and added the great ultra-rarities.
I am not sure what the first purchases in Hansen’s quest were, but hopefully John B. can share some of that info over time. Was there a first coin? One of the differences in the two quests from different eras is that Eliasberg made a single purchase of a near completed high grade set. Hansen quickly assembled a near complete set from multiple sources over about two years. Now, it seems that Hansen is purchasing some of the best high quality, high graded sets on the PCGS registry. I will list just a few that I am aware. All these sets are far superior to grade rarity and quality that Eliasberg. If you know others, please contribute to this discussion.
These beautiful ultra-rare finest known key sets acquired by Hansen in no particular order
Can you contribute others? If you like to participate in the discussion, please do so. I would like to know where he found the great Lincoln specimens. Did he build that all-time finest series one coin at a time?
Stewart
I agree. Pogue was amazing. So was Gardener and many others. Ducker had
amazing coins,
My Seated dollars and Proof Morgans are spectacular. What does “top” or “best” mean?
Largest may not mean best. There are many bests. Also 100%, top grades are not always the best coins,
@Perfection said:
To. Clarify, sure they are not correct all the time. No one is. But to reiterate, CAC sees something on coin they do not like so they do not sticker it. Sure people will disagree.
However unless it is an extreme rarity why buy a non cac coin? Can’t we find enough coins we like that are cac? Let’s be blunt. Over grading is a joke. The majority of people reading this believe NGC grades are for the most part one too high compared to PCGS. Their sales prices reflect this. So going forward and to be very generous, perhaps 60% of non CAC PCGS coins are over graded. Of course I think much more. As the years pass more and more collectors want cac coins. Unless PCGS changes their business model they continue to get closer to an NGC
Back to DLH"............... Gazes will tell us in time if he has put more emphasis on CAC.
Lastly, keep in mind there are many more people that want the best or the perceived best.
I cannot disagree except for your percentages and comments about NGC.
First a disclaimer: I graded for NGC until we started NCS. I consider myself an above average grader (don't we all) for coins valued under 20K. Throw away any semblance of grading for the rarities and coins over that figure as I'm too conservative (I don't put a value on the coins I grade) and don't know market values. I have posted before and I proved it again it each day at the FUN show that I can hit the grade on an NGC or PCGS slab a minimum of 90% of the time. The few times I miss, I am a little too conservative or the TPGS either missed something or considered deep "damage" marks to be normal for heavy gold pieces. I only saw two coins that were unacceptable.
Now to my point. An opinion about whether a coin is "over graded" depends a lot on one's age. Someone under fifty was "raised" when standards had already become loose. I don't see this grading difference you mention in your post although from my perspective 80-90% of coins are overgraded. Old timers must accept that fact and change with the times. When we are all dead, the "trace of wear nonsense" will have been forgotten by everyone alive.
Next, over graded, under graded, and mostly correctly graded coins can be found in every major TPGS slab. From what I see, most are correctly graded from all four services.
Perfecto I assure you, I am the process of building what WILL be the all time greatest PR TD set. You don't seem to understand, you had 3 coins I absolutely rejected because they were dark. I'd much rather have a monster 66+ then a dark lifeless 67. Any set I have ever built that was #1 -you look at the first coin and say wow, then the second coin really, wow, the the third coin OMG-next coin your head explodes. IMHO THAT is what a real #1 set is.
The 1814 is a killer. I did not make into a MS66. The guy I sold it too apparently did. Its really only 1/2 a point too high, but on a coin like this, 3 people (PCGS graders) saw it different.
There is little chance any one person can build every set. Regardless of how many sets DLH purchases he is not going to run out of coins to buy. Anyone who,has built sets knows that there is intense competition for top coins they need, usually record prices are paid for many coins as there are many buyers for top coins and not just set people. It is cheaper to buy a top gem set than to build it. Building it regardless,of how much money you have might not even be possible. Most people,enjoy the hunt, but there,is so,, much for DLH to buy so,that,is not an issue.
I recently paid,the absurd price of 84k for a Lib Nickel. It is,the only DCAM ever graded in thirty years and of course it was CAC. Why? The top set,has, existed for,fifteen years.
Usually the only way to beat a long time top.set’s score,is,for,it to be sold. This was not the case with these nickels, It still exists. I could have beaten it before this purchase using non CAC coins but that,is
Not me. This set does have one non cac coin which I,will replace,as soon as I,can.
.
It is my opinion that DLH shouid buy as,many GEM sets as possible. Then sell off all lower coins that he has.. DLH used 59 coins,from my Barber MS set, all CAC of course and added the others from his holdings. They were higher grades.
In addition to the DLH set list above, you can add the Ted Chrismor Seated PR 50c set.
This set is beautiful! Not all CAC but mostly beautiful eye appeal coins .
You can also add PR Barber quarters and halves to,the list. These,were,two,gem amazing
All CAC sets.
I am not sure what the first purchases in Hansen’s quest were, but hopefully John B. can share some of that info over time. Was there a first coin? One of the differences in the two quests from different eras is that Eliasberg made a single purchase of a near completed high grade set. Hansen quickly assembled a near complete set from multiple sources over about two years. Now, it seems that Hansen is purchasing some of the best high quality, high graded sets on the PCGS registry. I will list just a few that I am aware. All these sets are far superior to grade rarity and quality that Eliasberg. If you know others, please contribute to this discussion.
Great questions!
He also acquired the beautiful Chrismor Collection of Proof Seated Halves. It's his favorite set eye-appeal wise that he has. It certainly is incredible.
He also bought the Simpson $3 Gold Set and a set of DMPL Morgans early-on.
What were his first certified sets? He started by building a set of $20 Saint-Gaudens...once he had finished that, he decided to spread to other series. I think that's when he thought about $20 Liberties, etc.
His first set overall was a Dansco album type set that he put together. He still has the book and his coins, but he did that in the early 90s I believe. He cracked out the slabs and has the labels taped to the back of the album. He was even busier at that time with kids, etc, so he stopped collecting again until a few years ago.
The interesting thing that I see about Mr. Hansen is that he bought most of the coins as he was building his sets. And then he bought complete sets as upgrades to his already full or near-full sets.
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
@Redglobe said:
Reading the post and responses I can see why DLH chose JB at DLRC...just my opinion...
That's an incredibly nice thing to say. I appreciate it.
I have to admit that the honor is all mine. I consider him a friend and working with his collection is certainly the highlight of my numismatic career.
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Regarding his Lincoln Cents , he bought the complete set of Lincoln Cents 1909- 1958 that was
previously owned by Charles Roberts. Then he started upgrading numerically. Today he has the
1 PCGS Registry Set of circulation strikes 1909- 1958. He is missing the 1958 DDO to complete his variety set.
@Redglobe said:
Reading the post and responses I can see why DLH chose JB at DLRC...just my opinion...
That's an incredibly nice thing to say. I appreciate it.
I have to admit that the honor is all mine. I consider him a friend and working with his collection is certainly the highlight of my numismatic career.
your welcome
I could only imagine what the experience would be like.
@specialist said:
I have a headache now. WOW, I beat the big guy on one coin-the 58 DDO. lucky me.
I would argue lucky him. The 1955 DDO has a larger following, is just as prominent in doubling, and much cheaper. Also what are the odds that only three survive and there aren't a few hundred or more hidden in original bank rolls? I don't see a lot of room for upward movement price wise, but I do see plenty of room for the price to fall.
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
Perfection - You must know CAC does not sticker “modern coins “ nor Colonials.
That leaves at least 10 - 15% of the Hansen collection unstickerable.
How come no one mentioned Eliasberg or Pogue. I heard Mr. Hansen is trying to have a better quality collection than. Eliasberg.
If there is one thing we can all agree on is that Mr. Hansen will probably spend more money on his collection than has ever been spent on any coin collection.
@STEWARTBLAYNUMIS said:
Regarding his Lincoln Cents , he bought the complete set of Lincoln Cents 1909- 1958 that was
previously owned by Charles Roberts. Then he started upgrading numerically. Today he has the
.#1 PCGS Registry Set of circulation strikes 1909- 1958. He is missing the 1958 DDO to complete his variety set.
@specialist said:
I have a headache now. WOW, I beat the big guy on one coin-the 58 DDO. lucky me.
That's not the only coin...
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
I would argue lucky him. The 1955 DDO has a larger following, is just as prominent in doubling, and much cheaper. Also what are the odds that only three survive and there aren't a few hundred or more hidden in original bank rolls? I don't see a lot of room for upward movement price wise, but I do see plenty of room for the price to fall.
Well, we have about 50 uncirculated original rolls of these in our office (from a coin shop purchase a year or 2 ago), and we searched them all after we lost the coin in the Stack's sale...no dice
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Well, we have about 50 uncirculated original rolls of these in our office (from a coin shop purchase a year or 2 ago), and we searched them all after we lost the coin in the Stack's sale...no dice
I'd like to make fun of you for not looking BEFORE the auction but I'm even worse. This glass piggy bank is full of bright red 1958 and 1959 cents and I can't bring myself to break it open. Maybe if the next 58 DDO brings over half a million I'll get sufficiently motivated.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'd like to make fun of you for not looking BEFORE the auction but I'm even worse.
Well, it would have been deserved...
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
P.S. You bought the 1958 DDO even though it didn't have a CAC sticker? I hear John is really tough on 20th century copper. Are you sure it will sticker? John doesn't care very much for spotting or blotchy patches. It is a neat coin regardless.
I am not sure what the first purchases in Hansen’s quest were, but hopefully John B. can share some of that info over time. Was there a first coin? One of the differences in the two quests from different eras is that Eliasberg made a single purchase of a near completed high grade set. Hansen quickly assembled a near complete set from multiple sources over about two years. Now, it seems that Hansen is purchasing some of the best high quality, high graded sets on the PCGS registry. I will list just a few that I am aware. All these sets are far superior to grade rarity and quality that Eliasberg. If you know others, please contribute to this discussion.
Great questions!
>
He also bought the Simpson $3 Gold Set and a set of DMPL Morgans early-on.
I don’t see these Simpson sets in the Registry. Were they non-registry sets. Or have they been deleted?
He also bought the Simpson $3 Gold Set and a set of DMPL Morgans early-on.
I don’t see these Simpson sets in the Registry. Were they non-registry sets. Or have they been deleted?
The $3s were from Simpson, but I don't know about the Registry portion of it. Maybe specialist could chime in and let us know?
The DMPL Morgans were from another Texas collector. It was the Texascoins set.
John Brush President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com email: John@davidlawrence.com 2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
I live in North Carolina, so this branch mint has always been special to me. With the two Charlotte upgrades in the last couple weeks to the Hansen collection, this seems like to perfect time to have a mint feature. The completed basic set for this mint contains 50 items, and there are four additional items for the major varieties set. Even with this somewhat low count, only six collections have met the challenge for completion (Bass, Smithsonian, Eliasberg, Southern Collection, NC Collection and JJ Pitman). Hansen is one coin away for completing the seventh basic set. Harry W. Bass is presently honored with assembling a complete set of the highest quality gold coin collection minted at the Charlotte mint.
Presently, Hansen’s basic set is GPA rated at 59.61 and the Bass set is 59.66. Bass is leading by only 0.05 of a point. With the last coined added, 1846-C $5, and a couple more quality upgrades, Hansen should pass Bass for the all-time finest.
For the major varieties set, Hansen need the 1846-C $5, and two varieties (1849-C Open Wreath $1 and 1839/8 $2.5). Bass did not owned the neither the Wreath $1 or 1839/8 $2.5. By Hansen completing the basic set and adding just one of these two varieties, the Hansen sets should overtake Bass. If Hansen can complete the set with all three items, he will achieve an all-time prominence that no has ever been able to accomplish before (Note: According to PCGS registry there are no all-time complete Major Variety Set). Eliasberg never owned the 1849-C Open Wreath $1.
1855-C $2.50 MS64+
The survival estimate for this coin is approx. 90. There are only 5-6 in mint condition, and recently there are no coins grade MS65 or better. This coin sets on top of PCGS total population of 75 certified. The coin is 1/0 per PCGS POP report.
The PCGS price guide list as $87,500. This coin does not have any history in Coin Facts. The top previously PCGS coin is a MS63, so I think we can eliminate a possibility of an upgrade. One of the NGC MS65 certifies sold by Heritage in an April 2018 auction for $81,000. If this is the same coin, then it lost its Gem status with the crossover.
If this is the Heritage NGC coin, then coin described this way: (Does this description match the coin photo?) Bright rose-gold surfaces appear on each side of this outstanding Liberty quarter eagle. The upper stars and the eagle's legs and talons are incompletely struck, as always. However, Liberty's curls show strong detail, as do the olive leaves. A wire rim encircles most of the obverse. As seen on all examples examined by us, a small die break, resembling a cud, shows on the reverse rim from 7-8 o'clock. Luminous luster flows over semireflective, minimally marked fields and overall eye appeal is tremendous. This coin should find a home in the finest collection or Registry Set.
Provenance: unknown
1855-C $2.50 MS64+ Near Gem ---- NGC MS65 Gem?
1840-C $5 MS64+
This is another coin that that presently does not have any PCGS certified MS65 or better specimens. This coin sets on top of PCGS total population of 135 certified at a grade of MS64+. The coin is 1/0 per PCGS POP report.
The PCGS price guide list as $120,000. This coin appeared in the Heritage Long Beach auction in June 2018. It sold for $120,000. This coin does not have any Coin Facts history, but some information can be found in the Heritage listing.
Heritage describes the coin this way: Potential interested parties should strongly consider a premium bid, as this coin may disappear once again into strong hands for some time. This green-gold near-Gem has satiny luster and excellent design definition. Although shy of fully struck, the relief elements are far stronger than typically seen for a Charlotte product. Slight softness is evident in the hair below ER of LIBERTY, and some original planchet roughness appears in that area. A hint of pale copper-orange toning on both sides adds to the incredible eye appeal.
Provenance: An Important New York Collection
1840-C $5 MS64+ Near Gem
The 1855-C $2.50 was an upgrade from the following:
Soluna Collection - Heritage 1/2017:5810 (as NGC MS64 1280745-001), $54,050
The Proof Trade Dollar set is describe by PCGS this way: Assembling a complete set of proof trade dollars is even more difficult than the mint state collection. The true stoppers are the ultra-rare 1884 and 1885. Of the ten 1884 specimens that were minted, PCGS had graded nine, with the highest grade being a magnificent PR67. There are only five 1885 proofs, with the most recent sale being the Eliasberg specimen which realized nearly $1 million when auctioned by Bowers and Merena.
The total number of coins needed to complete this set is only 13. As small as the set is, only six completed sets are listed in the all-time PCGS registry. The finest is a current set owned by Simpson, set rating of 66.65. It squeaks out the Hall of Fame Legend Collection with the rating of 66.64. The third place is the Louis Eliasberg's proof trade dollar set described with impeccable quality with rating of 66.11. The remaining three sets drops significantly in quality (Waldo, Norweb, and Carter).
The Hansen collection upgraded 10 of the 13 coins this week that increases the set GPA w/ top set bonus to 68.62. The upgraded included 4 top Pop 1/0 PCGS certified coins. The set will need to add the 1885 proof to reach the finest of all-time position. The finest graded specimen (PR63+ CA) is in the Simpson current finest set, so that one may be off the market. The Eliasberg specimen may be out the somewhere. This specimen is not certified, but it is estimated having a grade of MS65CA. The acquisition this coin would elevate the set to undisputable finest of all-time.
These upgrades are beautiful and some of the finest coins known for this denomination, but history for these coins are sketchy. Some of these could be from the deleted Perfection 12 set, but it is not confirmed. Can anyone share a light? Where is TDN when you him?
1874 T$1 PR66+ PCGS POP 2/0
1876 T$1, CA PR67CA PCGS POP 1/0
1880 T$1 Trade, CA PR67+ CA PCGS POP 1/0 (No picture)
1881 T$1 Trade, CA PR67+ CA PCGS POP 1/0
1882 T$1 Trade, DC PR67+ DC PCGS POP 1/1
1883 T$1 Trade, CA PR67+ CA PCGS POP 1/0
The 1874 PR66+ was from the Perfection Collection and is a half-point upgrade
FWIW, I would prefer that we avoid posts like this. Sure, the coin was upgraded. Maybe it added a lot of value, maybe not. But knowing it upgraded is irrelevant to an appreciation of the coin, the quest, or the collection. Bringing the upgrade to our attention seems to imply - intentionally or not - that the purchase was not such a good one. And none of us likes to be told, more or less, that we are fools.
Now, do I believe that DLH will lose any sleep over this if he reads the post? Not really. He probably has enough self-confidence to take anything we throw at him, 100 times over. And he has also probably made enough seven figure mistakes in his life that a five figure mistake would feel like a mosquito bite. But I bring it up anyway because, next time, it could be someone else taking the punishment. And it shouldn't happen.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I agree, in that I don't care much about the grading history of an individual coin.
But I don't see this necessarily as the focus of @BestGerman's post.
In my view, he was just answering @Currin's question about the (recent) provenance of this coin,
which in the Heritage description also extends back to Harry Laibstain in 2000-2001.
So the recent provenance is:
MS-64+ PCGS 2018-6 D.L. Hansen Registry set
MS-65 NGC 2018-4 Heritage $81k
MS-64 NGC 2017-1 Heritage $54k from Soluna collection
Comments
I didn't even respond because I thought it was about a timepiece.
I try not to ever limit what someone has to say about a topic (so long that it is not slanderous). I have seen a move towards CAC coins in Mr. Hansen's collection and I think those are fair comments. For instance, interesting observations would be how often is he replacing a coin at the same grade with one that is CAC? What percentage of his coins are CAC and does it differ by series? Does he ever downgrade for a CAC coin? etc. That is why I think trying to limit discussion where CAC is a taboo topic is not helpful. If someone makes a comment that I think is outside the focus of a thread then I ignore it. Who knows, maybe I am wrong and others see its merits.
I beg to firmly differ on Hansen ever having the finest collection of all time-that title goes Simpson. Delloy will have the most complete (although he has no Patterns which Eliasberg did). He for sure will have on of the greatest collection ever-he can't have the finest simply because of what Simpson owns (Simpson has more coins over $1 million than any one ever).
Well, as much as I wish this was the case, it certainly isn't. There isn't really a "team" working through this, as we all have other jobs that ultimately pay the bills...Yes, every major dealer in the hobby continues to look for coins that fit his collection, but I would argue that 30% of the coins we are offered ultimately get purchased. We haggle to get prices that we all consider "fair". This isn't about enriching coin dealers or collectors, but a seriously interested collector with massive goals...but I'm sure there will ultimately be some holes in the set due to some situations that will likely not work out.
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Maybe he showing only what he wants us to see.
This is a very observant quote! Unfortunately the Registry Sets have some fallacies, but they do the best that they can...ultimately we plan on keeping the sets visible and eventually turning it into an online museum...
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Well, part of the fun is going to be in the argument of what/who is the greatest of all time. Some say Jordan, some say Lebron (I'd vote neither)...some say Babe Ruth (they are right) - some say Mays...I say Hansen (because it's wider ranging), you say Simpson because of the Patterns and some really rare coins. Who is right here? It depends on the criteria. However, in the end, as long as we can agree they Peyton is the greatest QB (college and pro) all-time, we can still be friends.
As for patterns: Dell Loy actually does have some patterns and a nice collection of Ancient Roman coins as well as some non-Registry items...but, few actually know exactly what is in there...
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
I specifically used the word "pursuit". Perhaps once he is done his complete 1792-present collection, maybe he'll dabble in patterns and rarities and make his collection the finest ever.
I agree with Gazes in that this thread is mainly to see what DLH is buying, upgrading and perhaps selling. Until all of the coins are entered and CAC is noted we cannot speculate too much. Jb will tell us when this is. I will TRY to lessen my intensity for CAC but I,have to rant here and there due to the dubious nature of the coin business. For the most part CAC is to
PCGS as PCGS is to NGC
Back to DLH
Most collectors start one way, but sooner or later change their thoughts, ideas, focus or buying patterns. That is normal. I did after many years. Since DLH has most coins, of is
he now looking to,upgrade everything or does he fancy certain series? Is he now buying mostly CAC and paying the price? I have no,idea.
We will see.
Perhaps one day Dell Loy Hansen will buy
Simpson’s complete collection.
If that happened, do you think the arguing will stop ? I doubt it
stewie, heck yeah it will if he bought his collection. I can be bought!
How quickly we forget Garrett, Brand and Green
Was that supposed to say, "IT can be bought?"
@Perfection said: "I have posted the following many times:
CAC is always correct. They see something they do not like when they do not sticker a coin. Is the coin still the grade is the question. Some people say it is. I,on the other hand say, who cares! Are there not enough CAC coins to buy to even worry about the others?
I jumped the gun here and was going to give you a Big Fat Disagree although you must be a wealthy, famous, knowledgeable, collector or numismatist! However, in ONE WAY your statement cannot be argued with: "CAC is always correct." That's because a "world-class" numismatic authority has put his sticker on the coin based on a standard he backs up! Therefore, CAC cannot be wrong.
However, from my standpoint and that of others based on OUR standards (which a good for nothing except taking up "airtime"), this statement that CAC is never wrong is nonsense!
No, pretty sure she meant what she said.
As for GOAT, depends on what one's criteria is.
To. Clarify, sure they are not correct all the time. No one is. But to reiterate, CAC sees something on coin they do not like so they do not sticker it. Sure people will disagree.
However unless it is an extreme rarity why buy a non cac coin? Can’t we find enough coins we like that are cac? Let’s be blunt. Over grading is a joke. The majority of people reading this believe NGC grades are for the most part one too high compared to PCGS. Their sales prices reflect this. So going forward and to be very generous, perhaps 60% of non CAC PCGS coins are over graded. Of course I think much more. As the years pass more and more collectors want cac coins. Unless PCGS changes their business model they continue to get closer to an NGC
Back to DLH"............... Gazes will tell us in time if he has put more emphasis on CAC.
Lastly, keep in mind there are many more people that want the best or the perceived best.
Perfection - You must know CAC does not sticker “modern coins “ nor Colonials.
That leaves at least 10 - 15% of the Hansen collection unstickerable.
How come no one mentioned Eliasberg or Pogue. I heard Mr. Hansen is trying to have a better quality collection than. Eliasberg.
If there is one thing we can all agree on is that Mr. Hansen will probably spend more money on his collection than has ever been spent on any coin collection.
This weekend the Hansen watch thread reached 10K. Thanks to all the watchers and also to the people that has contributed along the way. Perfection has shared many of his thoughts around the CAC designation. Thanks for sharing. John B. dropped in several times. It is always good to hear from him and the insights that he adds. I hope he continue to share. There are many others that I really appreciate your contributions. Just as a reminder, the purpose of this thread is to watch the quest to challenge Eliasberg. I know from time to time the Hansen Collection is compared to other present day collections. There no limits in this discussion, just keep in mind the overall purpose, which is not to be disparaging to any other collections. There are many other great collections out there.
There were a couple Register Sets that Hansen purchased in private transactions in the last few weeks. In comparing the Hansen endeavor to Eliasberg, you would take note that Eliasberg started his collection with a large set purchase. In other words, he did not build his collection one coin at a time. Eliasberg PCGS Bio describes the purchase this way: Eliasberg's largest and most important purchase occurred in 1942 when he purchased the Clapp Estate Collection through Stack's for $100,000. The Clapp Collection had been built first by J.M. Clapp from the 1880s through his death in 1906, and then his son John H. Clapp from 1906 on. The Clapp Collection was not only nearly complete, it contained coins of extraordinary quality, including spectacular quality coins that J.M. Clapp had acquired directly from each of the Mints in the year of issue from 1892 to 1906. Louis Eliasberg added the Clapp Collection to his, then expanded it and added the great ultra-rarities.
I am not sure what the first purchases in Hansen’s quest were, but hopefully John B. can share some of that info over time. Was there a first coin? One of the differences in the two quests from different eras is that Eliasberg made a single purchase of a near completed high grade set. Hansen quickly assembled a near complete set from multiple sources over about two years. Now, it seems that Hansen is purchasing some of the best high quality, high graded sets on the PCGS registry. I will list just a few that I am aware. All these sets are far superior to grade rarity and quality that Eliasberg. If you know others, please contribute to this discussion.
These beautiful ultra-rare finest known key sets acquired by Hansen in no particular order
$20 Liberty Gold (CS) set previous known as the AWA Collection (CNNCoins)
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/20-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-20-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1850-1907/alltimeset/147814
Trade Dollar Proof set assemble by Perfection
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/dollars/trade-dollars-major-sets/trade-dollars-proof-1873-1883/alltimeset/156529
Liberty Seated Dollar (CS) set assemble by Morelan (TDN) with Legend
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/dollars/liberty-seated-dollars-major-sets/liberty-seated-dollars-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1873/alltimeset/152934
Barber Half Dollars (CS) set assemble by Perfection
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/half-dollars/barber-half-dollars-major-sets/barber-half-dollars-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1892-1915/alltimeset/155305
3-cent Silver Proof set created by Laura Spierber at Legend
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/two-three-cents/three-cent-silvers-major-sets/three-cent-silvers-major-varieties-1851-proof-1873/alltimeset/164127
Can you contribute others? If you like to participate in the discussion, please do so. I would like to know where he found the great Lincoln specimens. Did he build that all-time finest series one coin at a time?
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Stewart
I agree. Pogue was amazing. So was Gardener and many others. Ducker had
amazing coins,
My Seated dollars and Proof Morgans are spectacular. What does “top” or “best” mean?
Largest may not mean best. There are many bests. Also 100%, top grades are not always the best coins,
I cannot disagree except for your percentages and comments about NGC.
First a disclaimer: I graded for NGC until we started NCS. I consider myself an above average grader (don't we all) for coins valued under 20K. Throw away any semblance of grading for the rarities and coins over that figure as I'm too conservative (I don't put a value on the coins I grade) and don't know market values. I have posted before and I proved it again it each day at the FUN show that I can hit the grade on an NGC or PCGS slab a minimum of 90% of the time. The few times I miss, I am a little too conservative or the TPGS either missed something or considered deep "damage" marks to be normal for heavy gold pieces. I only saw two coins that were unacceptable.
Now to my point. An opinion about whether a coin is "over graded" depends a lot on one's age. Someone under fifty was "raised" when standards had already become loose. I don't see this grading difference you mention in your post although from my perspective 80-90% of coins are overgraded. Old timers must accept that fact and change with the times. When we are all dead, the "trace of wear nonsense" will have been forgotten by everyone alive.
Next, over graded, under graded, and mostly correctly graded coins can be found in every major TPGS slab. From what I see, most are correctly graded from all four services.
Perfecto I assure you, I am the process of building what WILL be the all time greatest PR TD set. You don't seem to understand, you had 3 coins I absolutely rejected because they were dark. I'd much rather have a monster 66+ then a dark lifeless 67. Any set I have ever built that was #1 -you look at the first coin and say wow, then the second coin really, wow, the the third coin OMG-next coin your head explodes. IMHO THAT is what a real #1 set is.
First off. That 1814 cent looks killer.
Perfection. You own coins that were graded PC65 CAC green, sold at auction for 66 price or more, then PC66 CAC green. True?
Coins can't be regulated yet. One of both the good and bad things about our hobby.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
@Nic said: "Coins can't be regulated yet. One of both the good and bad things about our hobby."
Another bad thing is all the altered surfaced, dipped-out, dull, unoriginal Proofs the are straight graded!
The 1814 is a killer. I did not make into a MS66. The guy I sold it too apparently did. Its really only 1/2 a point too high, but on a coin like this, 3 people (PCGS graders) saw it different.
Reading the post and responses I can see why DLH chose JB at DLRC...just my opinion...
I missed the Currin set post.
There is little chance any one person can build every set. Regardless of how many sets DLH purchases he is not going to run out of coins to buy. Anyone who,has built sets knows that there is intense competition for top coins they need, usually record prices are paid for many coins as there are many buyers for top coins and not just set people. It is cheaper to buy a top gem set than to build it. Building it regardless,of how much money you have might not even be possible. Most people,enjoy the hunt, but there,is so,, much for DLH to buy so,that,is not an issue.
I recently paid,the absurd price of 84k for a Lib Nickel. It is,the only DCAM ever graded in thirty years and of course it was CAC. Why? The top set,has, existed for,fifteen years.
Usually the only way to beat a long time top.set’s score,is,for,it to be sold. This was not the case with these nickels, It still exists. I could have beaten it before this purchase using non CAC coins but that,is
Not me. This set does have one non cac coin which I,will replace,as soon as I,can.
.
It is my opinion that DLH shouid buy as,many GEM sets as possible. Then sell off all lower coins that he has.. DLH used 59 coins,from my Barber MS set, all CAC of course and added the others from his holdings. They were higher grades.
In addition to the DLH set list above, you can add the Ted Chrismor Seated PR 50c set.
This set is beautiful! Not all CAC but mostly beautiful eye appeal coins .
You can also add PR Barber quarters and halves to,the list. These,were,two,gem amazing
All CAC sets.
On the other hand,
Great questions!
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
That's an incredibly nice thing to say. I appreciate it.
I have to admit that the honor is all mine. I consider him a friend and working with his collection is certainly the highlight of my numismatic career.
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Regarding his Lincoln Cents , he bought the complete set of Lincoln Cents 1909- 1958 that was
previously owned by Charles Roberts. Then he started upgrading numerically. Today he has the
1 PCGS Registry Set of circulation strikes 1909- 1958. He is missing the 1958 DDO to complete his variety set.
IT WONT WORK, STEWART!
I have a headache now. WOW, I beat the big guy on one coin-the 58 DDO. lucky me.
your welcome
I could only imagine what the experience would be like.
I would argue lucky him. The 1955 DDO has a larger following, is just as prominent in doubling, and much cheaper. Also what are the odds that only three survive and there aren't a few hundred or more hidden in original bank rolls? I don't see a lot of room for upward movement price wise, but I do see plenty of room for the price to fall.
I agree unless she sells/trades the coin to him at a profit.
In all fairness, they've all been dead for nearly 100 years!
Do we have an inventory of what was really in the Brand collection? I know it was massive, maybe the most massive ever?
QA. So only 5ish%
Remove.
Is that an offer to sell?
That's not the only coin...
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
Well, we have about 50 uncirculated original rolls of these in our office (from a coin shop purchase a year or 2 ago), and we searched them all after we lost the coin in the Stack's sale...no dice
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
I'd like to make fun of you for not looking BEFORE the auction but I'm even worse. This glass piggy bank is full of bright red 1958 and 1959 cents and I can't bring myself to break it open. Maybe if the next 58 DDO brings over half a million I'll get sufficiently motivated.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Hansen purchased the 1946-1964 #1 All Time Finest Roosevelt Dime set from Nick Cascio
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/half-dimes/roosevelt-dimes-major-sets/roosevelt-dimes-fb-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1946-1964/alltimeset/151409
Later, Paul.
Well, it would have been deserved...
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
@specialist
P.S. You bought the 1958 DDO even though it didn't have a CAC sticker? I hear John is really tough on 20th century copper. Are you sure it will sticker? John doesn't care very much for spotting or blotchy patches. It is a neat coin regardless.
>
I don’t see these Simpson sets in the Registry. Were they non-registry sets. Or have they been deleted?
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
The $3s were from Simpson, but I don't know about the Registry portion of it. Maybe specialist could chime in and let us know?
The DMPL Morgans were from another Texas collector. It was the Texascoins set.
President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
email: John@davidlawrence.com
2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
The 1855-C $2.50 was an upgrade from the following:
Soluna Collection - Heritage 1/2017:5810 (as NGC MS64 1280745-001), $54,050
Ron Guth, Chief Investigator
The Numismatic Detective Agency
The 1874 PR66+ was from the Perfection Collection and is a half-point upgrade
Ron Guth, Chief Investigator
The Numismatic Detective Agency
https://coins.ha.com/itm/a/1251-5810.s
FWIW, I would prefer that we avoid posts like this. Sure, the coin was upgraded. Maybe it added a lot of value, maybe not. But knowing it upgraded is irrelevant to an appreciation of the coin, the quest, or the collection. Bringing the upgrade to our attention seems to imply - intentionally or not - that the purchase was not such a good one. And none of us likes to be told, more or less, that we are fools.
Now, do I believe that DLH will lose any sleep over this if he reads the post? Not really. He probably has enough self-confidence to take anything we throw at him, 100 times over. And he has also probably made enough seven figure mistakes in his life that a five figure mistake would feel like a mosquito bite. But I bring it up anyway because, next time, it could be someone else taking the punishment. And it shouldn't happen.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I agree, in that I don't care much about the grading history of an individual coin.
But I don't see this necessarily as the focus of @BestGerman's post.
In my view, he was just answering @Currin's question about the (recent) provenance of this coin,
which in the Heritage description also extends back to Harry Laibstain in 2000-2001.
So the recent provenance is: