@perkdog said:
And furthermore events like Baltimore only add to the notion that violent protesters are giving minority's a major set back in their pursuit of getting their message across. Baseball won't agree with anything I say because he continues to be obtuse to open minded conversations about this whole topic.
This is what is confusing to me. The current NFL kneelers are protesting quietly and peacefully, before, during and after the game. If one is going to damn minorities for violent protests ( it is wrong) why not acknowledge them for peaceful protests? Or at least cut them some slack. Or does every thing have to be on certain terms?
I think the message has been registered and there will be less kneelers this weekend. Personally I always stand and actually sing during the National Anthem and always think about all my family that has served.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Because the flag represents the hundreds of thousands that have died defending what that flag stands for. Also these guys in uniform should not be allowed to stage protests on national tv regardless of what it is they want to protest. If these guys want to go about peaceful protests on their own time and stage events outside government buildings and courthouses then they should be free to do it but on their own time they are too busy enjoying the riches from the NFL Money. If it was that important they would continue on their fight off of TV and off the clock, these guys are getting huge money and are lucky to be in the position they are in and should not be disruptive to the league and jam their political beliefs down the throats of everyone trying to enjoy a sporting event.
how are they lucky? They have skills and are being paid for it at a fair market value. Hopefully all of us are lucky enough to have jobs that pay fair market value. But I do think you raise an interesting point. I think part of the issue at hand is that some conservatives and white Americans resent that "these" black players are making millions and "acting up". It doesn't bother this conservative at all.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I don't watch NASCAR but I will root for this guy. Other opinions will vary
Keselowski has always been one of the more patriotic drivers in the sport when it comes to patriotic symbolism. Keselowski always drives around the track after his wins with an American flag. And he puts his money where his mouth is too with his foundation, which helps veterans.
But there is a salient point Keselowski made in his larger point that we want to emphasize. And it’s applicable for everyone who has tried to opine on the topic of athletes protesting during the national anthem.
So please don’t fall for the false narrative of choice between patriotism and racism. It’s simply not the case.
— Brad Keselowski (@keselowski) September 27, 2017
If you’ve done any research at all, you’ll know that protests during the national anthem weren’t started out of a lack of patriotism or love for the United States. Instead, they were about standing up for systemic racism and social injustice.
To us, that’s pretty damn patriotic. If you love your country, you should want to improve it. It’s less patriotic to see systemic issues that need changing and simply shrug your shoulders.
But somehow along the way — and President Donald Trump is as guilty as anyone else of this — the discussion surrounding anthem protests got so warped that it became about a love of the country and the flag that represents it, not about the country’s citizens who may not be treated like everyone else.
How did that happen? We can’t say for sure, but our best guess is because those who had an emotional and visceral reaction against what they saw during the national anthem didn’t take time to understand just what the protests were about. They saw what they wanted to see and built their thoughts accordingly.
And that’s disappointing. If people took the time to figure out why we’re having a discussion about protests instead of drawing their own conclusions to fit their biases, we’re sure that there would still be widespread disagreement. But the conversation would be a whole lot healthier.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The propaganda is flying thick and fast from every direction.
Stand up sit down protest counter protest do whatever you want. Football is not patriotic , national anthems don't have anything to do with sports. How much a person is paid doesn't disqualify them from protesting. The 1st amendment doesn't cover anything but the government silencing people.
It doesn't give the player the right to kneel but if the owner doesn't fire them then they can kneel.
If you don't literally sign the players paycheck it doesn't matter what you think. Turn the channel , spend time with the family , whatever. Stop saying that the employers have to fire them, they don't. The owners can fire them or choose not to.
This whole episode shows what a master of the art of trolling our president is. I think its a mistake to assume that he cares one way or another about any of these subjects, he is just trying to get a reaction . He is pushing buttons more effectively than anyone in politics has ever done here. Its a wild ride we are on and I can't wait to see what comes next.
The NFL has certainly dug a hole they wont come out of unscathed. I believe they feared a player strike and thought they needed to be tolerant. After all, it seems they have given in to left wing propaganda for about the last 10 years, why not dive all in. I stopped watching Football last year and prior to that, never missed many games at all. Obama should of spoken up when he was in office, if he did the response would of been much different. But here we are and of course its T dogs fault. I agree about the distraction comment @Coinstartled made earlier in the thread. Look at the mess in the Senate. And Yellen's comment about our inability to react to a recession due to long term low interest rates has not even been discussed. Real scary that the masses can be hoodwinked so easily.
@bronco2078 said:
This whole episode shows what a master of the art of trolling our president is. I think its a mistake to assume that he cares one way or another about any of these subjects, he is just trying to get a reaction. He is pushing buttons more effectively than anyone in politics has ever done here. Its a wild ride we are on and I can't wait to see what comes next.
This is one of the truest statements yet (imo). I think the only thing I would change is the last sentence: it’s a wild ride we’re on and I’m kinda nervous to see what comes next.
@bronco2078 said:
The propaganda is flying thick and fast from every direction.
Stand up sit down protest counter protest do whatever you want. Football is not patriotic , national anthems don't have anything to do with sports. How much a person is paid doesn't disqualify them from protesting. The 1st amendment doesn't cover anything but the government silencing people.
It doesn't give the player the right to kneel but if the owner doesn't fire them then they can kneel.
If you don't literally sign the players paycheck it doesn't matter what you think. Turn the channel , spend time with the family , whatever. Stop saying that the employers have to fire them, they don't. The owners can fire them or choose not to.
This whole episode shows what a master of the art of trolling our president is. I think its a mistake to assume that he cares one way or another about any of these subjects, he is just trying to get a reaction . He is pushing buttons more effectively than anyone in politics has ever done here. Its a wild ride we are on and I can't wait to see what comes next.
I think this is pretty spot on but maybe you are being a little too kind to the CIC.
He plays well to older white Americans males and they end spewing stuff that sounds just like your racist grandpa. My deceased grandpas are smiling in their graves
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@perkdog said:
And furthermore events like Baltimore only add to the notion that violent protesters are giving minority's a major set back in their pursuit of getting their message across. Baseball won't agree with anything I say because he continues to be obtuse to open minded conversations about this whole topic.
I don't agree with anything you say because you haven't said anything that is unequivocally true yet. Never mind that the events of Baltimore were perpetrated by the tiniest fraction of not only the overall African American population in this country but even just within Baltimore, but you only want to see the negatives and apparently go out of your way to justify why minorities are subhuman in some way in your mind.
You say your "open minded" and yet your post statistics that are WRONG without even doing any research. And when you find that the numbers are wrong, you find other ways to justify your position rather than consider that maybe your beliefs are based on your lack of knowledge rather that the reality of things or that the leader you seem to love so much is a huge douche bag whose trying to divide this country and mislead his blind followers (e.g. YOU) with complete misinformation time and time again.
Now your just being straight up ignorant. The world is not a perfect place and there are unjust situations across the board that effect everyone regardless of race. You disagree with me and that's fine, you don't like the president I get that too but what I don't get is why you continue to throw your hate at the guy at me where nowhere in this thread have I even mentioned him? I didn't realize that chart was a Trump chart so if that's the reason then understood. As far as me counter protesting goes I don't feel the need to push my beliefs down people's throats. I treat everyone with respect and demand it in return that's how I live my life. If you are so adamant about this new thing about sitting for the flag why haven't you been out preaching this all along? And because Baltimore was such a small fraction of the population it doesn't deserve any disdain? Its always about the minority's that are broke and jobless that people cry the most about injustice and people like you defending them yet you probably ignore the white population that is in the same situation. What difference does color or race have to do with the poor? You either have your stuff together or not, white people that live in squalor and are in and out of jail don't seem to get any attention because they automatically have better shots at education and jobs? Sorry I do t buy that at all, if you go to school and apply yourself in today's society then you have a shot at a good honest living. Nobody is not allowed to go to school or get a job because of skin color or race, your one thing about unjust sentencing for minority's definitely deserves a strong look at but overall if you as a person don't put yourself in a position to get arrested and have a gun put on you by law enforcement then it shouldn't be an issue for anyone doing the right thing.
While your question about women and the justice system may be a valid question, what does that have to do with this thread? It has nothing to do with why the players are protesting. We could ask questions ad nauseum about the justice system.
It was brought up earlier in the thread, hence my comment.
I admit I've been lightheaded the last couple of days but can you reference what you are referring to. Apart from DIMEMAN's comments about women serving in the military, I don't recall any talk of women and their crimes, prosecutions or sentences.
The only time i used the word "women" in this thread is when I referred to men and women giving their all for this country.
I think this is pretty spot on but maybe you are being a little too kind to the CIC.
He plays well to older white Americans males and they end spewing stuff that sounds just like your racist grandpa. My deceased grandpas are smiling in their graves
mark
The goal of many voters is to burn down the whole system and for that I think we chose the right guy. If ,collectively , we are ready to burn down a whole country , rest assured that the NFL is not going to survive it.
All this whining about sports protests is just rearranging deck chairs on the titanic ,..... in fact its just the tip of the iceberg , so you all might want to buckle up
I think this is pretty spot on but maybe you are being a little too kind to the CIC.
He plays well to older white Americans males and they end spewing stuff that sounds just like your racist grandpa. My deceased grandpas are smiling in their graves
mark
The goal of many voters is to burn down the whole system and for that I think we chose the right guy. If ,collectively , we are ready to burn down a whole country , rest assured that the NFL is not going to survive it.
All this whining about sports protests is just rearranging deck chairs on the titanic ,..... in fact its just the tip of the iceberg , so you all might want to buckle up
Or a 2018 version of a civil war. Granted not one fought in the trenches
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Coinstartled said:
Sexual assault is no laughing matter. Murder is less funny. Some serious creeps in the league.
The truest thing you've said yet. I would add that there are serious creeps everywhere people gather. I guaran-damn-tee you there are serious creeps posting somewhere on CU right now. There are serious creeps in every church organization, and every hospital, and in the stands at every sporting event, and, and, and... you get the idea.
Regarding sexual assault - we all know there are FAR more sexual assaults committed by athletes than those that show up in the news, and we all know the reasons why we never hear about them. That's beyond tragic.
@Justacommeman said:
If you’ve done any research at all, you’ll know that protests during the national anthem weren’t started out of a lack of patriotism or love for the United States. Instead, they were about standing up for systemic racism and social injustice.
And this is the fundamental problem that many of us will never agree on. Disrespect of the flag during the NA is antithetical to the goals of opposing 'systemic racism and social injustice'. The flag has stood for American nationalism and rejection of secessionism since the Civil War, something that millions of people fought for, and many thousands died for. They're starting the conversation by antagonizing a significant portion of the people they're trying to get on their side. Not the brightest of moves.
Most of these guys are fighting for nothing, protesting for protests sake, and have no ideas, no plan, no concrete actions and no way to measure the perceived 'systemic racism and social injustice' and whether the impact of their protests and/or other actions are improving the situation or making it worse. Outside of Kaep, what have any of them actually done about it? What are the impacts of what has been done? What is the proof of systemic racism and social injustice, objective measurable facts? Rallies? Nope. Actual protests? Nope. Putting their money where there knee sits? Generally, nope. This whole kneeling/sitting for the NA is nothing but a farce until they come up with some sort of objectively measurable plan and actually take beneficial action. Until this happens, I and many others will continue to see them as unpatriotic whiners. If they actually identify a grievance and get something measurable done rather than kneeling/sitting for the flag, I'll be happy to change my opinion of them and become part of the process, but I'm not holding my breath.
While your question about women and the justice system may be a valid question, what does that have to do with this thread? It has nothing to do with why the players are protesting. We could ask questions ad nauseum about the justice system.
It was brought up earlier in the thread, hence my comment.
I admit I've been lightheaded the last couple of days but can you reference what you are referring to. Apart from DIMEMAN's comments about women serving in the military, I don't recall any talk of women and their crimes, prosecutions or sentences.
The only time i used the word "women" in this thread is when I referred to men and women giving their all for this country.
Agreed. And I wasn't stating negative about your comments. Quite frankly, I think you are the only repeat poster who may be against the players that hasn't crossed the line.
Thank you. I am not blind to the social injustices we have in this country at all. But as a Vet and a person who loves this country (despite it's flaws) I am against disrespecting the Flag and our Country's NA.
And if you want to really get me going.......burn a Flag as a protest!! That is NOT freedom of speech ........that is treason.
If I EVER see anyone burning a Flag (in person).....we will be on the news that night!!!!
@Coinstartled said:
Sexual assault is no laughing matter. Murder is less funny. Some serious creeps in the league.
The truest thing you've said yet. I would add that there are serious creeps everywhere people gather. I guaran-damn-tee you there are serious creeps posting somewhere on CU right now. There are serious creeps in every church organization, and every hospital, and in the stands at every sporting event, and, and, and... you get the idea.
Regarding sexual assault - we all know there are FAR more sexual assaults committed by athletes than those that show up in the news, and we all know the reasons why we never hear about them. That's beyond tragic.
That is your assumption.
Elaborate, please. Are you talking about my statement that there are creeps everywhere? That’s certainly an assumption on my part, and of course cannot be proven. But it’s be silly to assume otherwise - any large gathering of people is bound to have at least one seriously disturbed person.
Or are you taking about my belief that there are far more sexual assaults than are actually reported? Again, hard to put an actual number on that, but given that female accusers are routinely harassed into dropping charges and are often treated awfully by defense attorneys , my assumption is again probably correct. And that’s just for sexual assault among the normal populace. My assumption is that the problem is much larger among athletes because of the immense money at stake.
@Coinstartled said:
Sexual assault is no laughing matter. Murder is less funny. Some serious creeps in the league.
The truest thing you've said yet. I would add that there are serious creeps everywhere people gather. I guaran-damn-tee you there are serious creeps posting somewhere on CU right now. There are serious creeps in every church organization, and every hospital, and in the stands at every sporting event, and, and, and... you get the idea.
Regarding sexual assault - we all know there are FAR more sexual assaults committed by athletes than those that show up in the news, and we all know the reasons why we never hear about them. That's beyond tragic.
That is your assumption.
Elaborate, please. Are you talking about my statement that there are creeps everywhere? That’s certainly an assumption on my part, and of course cannot be proven. But it’s be silly to assume otherwise - any large gathering of people is bound to have at least one seriously disturbed person.
Or are you taking about my belief that there are far more sexual assaults than are actually reported? Again, hard to put an actual number on that, but given that female accusers are routinely harassed into dropping charges and are often treated awfully by defense attorneys , my assumption is again probably correct. And that’s just for sexual assault among the normal populace. My assumption is that the problem is much larger among athletes because of the immense money at stake.
This part:
Or are you taking about my belief that there are far more sexual assaults than are actually reported? Again, hard to put an actual number on that, but given that female accusers are routinely harassed into dropping charges and are often treated awfully by defense attorneys , my assumption is again probably correct. And that’s just for sexual assault among the normal populace. My assumption is that the problem is much larger among athletes because of the immense money at stake.
This is your view (and your right) but is only a view that could be right or wrong. That's all I am saying.
@Justacommeman said:
If you’ve done any research at all, you’ll know that protests during the national anthem weren’t started out of a lack of patriotism or love for the United States. Instead, they were about standing up for systemic racism and social injustice.
Most of these guys are fighting for nothing, protesting for protests sake, and have no ideas, no plan, no concrete actions and no way to measure the perceived 'systemic racism and social injustice' and whether the impact of their protests and/or other actions are improving the situation or making it worse. Outside of Kaep, what have any of them actually done about it? What are the impacts of what has been done? What is the proof of systemic racism and social injustice, objective measurable facts? Rallies? Nope. Actual protests? Nope. Putting their money where there knee sits? Generally, nope. This whole kneeling/sitting for the NA is nothing but a farce until they come up with some sort of objectively measurable plan and actually take beneficial action. Until this happens, I and many others will continue to see them as unpatriotic whiners. If they actually identify a grievance and get something measurable done rather than kneeling/sitting for the flag, I'll be happy to change my opinion of them and become part of the process, but I'm not holding my breath.
And how do you know this? You are assuming a lot and using that as your basis for fact.. I give these guys a whole lot of credit and these guys do indeed face blow back financially and publicly.
What I think you are missing is that these protests were ramped up this weekend after the C.I.C. Inflammatory speech. They are in the middle of the football season. You think they have time to have protests and rallies right now? Why do protests have to be on the terms of those who are being offended? What's the point?
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
If you’ve done any research at all, you’ll know that protests during the national anthem weren’t started out of a lack of patriotism or love for the United States. Instead, they were about standing up for systemic racism and social injustice.
Most of these guys are fighting for nothing, protesting for protests sake, and have no ideas, no plan, no concrete actions and no way to measure the perceived 'systemic racism and social injustice' and whether the impact of their protests and/or other actions are improving the situation or making it worse. Outside of Kaep, what have any of them actually done about it? What are the impacts of what has been done? What is the proof of systemic racism and social injustice, objective measurable facts? Rallies? Nope. Actual protests? Nope. Putting their money where there knee sits? Generally, nope. This whole kneeling/sitting for the NA is nothing but a farce until they come up with some sort of objectively measurable plan and actually take beneficial action. Until this happens, I and many others will continue to see them as unpatriotic whiners. If they actually identify a grievance and get something measurable done rather than kneeling/sitting for the flag, I'll be happy to change my opinion of them and become part of the process, but I'm not holding my breath.
And how do you know this? You are assuming a lot and stating as fact. I give these guys a whole lot of credit and these guys do indeed face blow back financially and publicly.
What has been accomplished by any of those who joined Kaep last year? A whole lotta nothing. There will be no difference until they come up with actionable grievances, simple as that.
What I think you are missing is that these protests were ramped up this weekend after the C.I.C. Inflammatory speech. They are in the middle of the football season. You think they have time to have protests and rallies right now? Why do protests have to be on the terms of those who are being offended? What's the point?
mark
So they weren't protesting systemic racism or social injustice, just our president. Got it. So whatever they want to protest, now they do it during the NA further angering many. Great plan. Name 3 NFLers who did anything during the offseason to address systemic racism and social injustice.
This is going to be great . I think the players will come out of this just fine , they are basically expendable anyway but if people get mad enough at the NFL owners maybe they will have to start paying for their own stadiums.
If ratings go lower then that helps to kill ESPN too , overall it's a win win in my book. I doubt it leads to any real progress on race relations but if it unites the poor versus the rich then that would be a plus. It's what the 1% fears the most , the debt serfs awakening and stringing them up from the nearest lamp post.
You can't name any player that addresses social injustice on his own personal time because they are too busy enjoying that NFL lifestyle to give a crap just like Kap letting everyone know he will now stand for the flag IF HE IS HIRED! It's a joke that these guys are even getting credit for this crap. Goodell the COWARD is a joke for allowing this to go on, if he had a set of balls he would either remove the flag and anthem from the before game ritual or tell these guys he will not allow protesting while in uniform on TV.
This is going to be great . I think the players will come out of this just fine , they are basically expendable anyway but if people get mad enough at the NFL owners maybe they will have to start paying for their own stadiums.
If ratings go lower then that helps to kill ESPN too , overall it's a win win in my book. I doubt it leads to any real progress on race relations but if it unites the poor versus the rich then that would be a plus. It's what the 1% fears the most , the debt serfs awakening and stringing them up from the nearest lamp post.
All it does is divide. But, that's probably part of the plan. His popularity is waning so what's the best way to rally his troops? The patriotic card against black athletes. Brilliant
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm enjoying this discourse and grateful that this thread and no one in it has been nuked. This thread reminds me of Sunday dinner at my folks minus the black eye someone used to receive. My sisters did most of the giving.
My folks were Detroit super Libs and Union Brats. That automatically made me a conservative and anti union. We still debate about the the same crap like we are going to change each other's minds at this point
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This is going to be great . I think the players will come out of this just fine , they are basically expendable anyway but if people get mad enough at the NFL owners maybe they will have to start paying for their own stadiums.
If ratings go lower then that helps to kill ESPN too , overall it's a win win in my book. I doubt it leads to any real progress on race relations but if it unites the poor versus the rich then that would be a plus. It's what the 1% fears the most , the debt serfs awakening and stringing them up from the nearest lamp post.
All it does is divide. But, that's probably part of the plan
m
There are scared cows getting tipped over , sleeping dogs are being woken up , and a lot of complacent people are getting nervous. On my way home from work yesterday I even saw an applecart that had been upset.
It got me thinking , it's too early for apples but maybe in a week or two I'll head to Bolton to the pick your own orchard on a Sunday afternoon and skip the whole NFL thing.
@Justacommeman said:
If you’ve done any research at all, you’ll know that protests during the national anthem weren’t started out of a lack of patriotism or love for the United States. Instead, they were about standing up for systemic racism and social injustice.
Most of these guys are fighting for nothing, protesting for protests sake, and have no ideas, no plan, no concrete actions and no way to measure the perceived 'systemic racism and social injustice' and whether the impact of their protests and/or other actions are improving the situation or making it worse. Outside of Kaep, what have any of them actually done about it? What are the impacts of what has been done? What is the proof of systemic racism and social injustice, objective measurable facts? Rallies? Nope. Actual protests? Nope. Putting their money where there knee sits? Generally, nope. This whole kneeling/sitting for the NA is nothing but a farce until they come up with some sort of objectively measurable plan and actually take beneficial action. Until this happens, I and many others will continue to see them as unpatriotic whiners. If they actually identify a grievance and get something measurable done rather than kneeling/sitting for the flag, I'll be happy to change my opinion of them and become part of the process, but I'm not holding my breath.
And how do you know this? You are assuming a lot and stating as fact. I give these guys a whole lot of credit and these guys do indeed face blow back financially and publicly.
What has been accomplished by any of those who joined Kaep last year? A whole lotta nothing. There will be no difference until they come up with actionable grievances, simple as that.
What I think you are missing is that these protests were ramped up this weekend after the C.I.C. Inflammatory speech. They are in the middle of the football season. You think they have time to have protests and rallies right now? Why do protests have to be on the terms of those who are being offended? What's the point?
mark
So they weren't protesting systemic racism or social injustice, just our president. Got it. So whatever they want to protest, now they do it during the NA further angering many. Great plan. Name 3 NFLers who did anything during the offseason to address systemic racism and social injustice.
Hi, Kyle. Thanks for joining the discussion - appreciate your point of view.
You asked what has been accomplished by any of those who joined Kaep last year. Hard to say, I suppose. It definitely caused further anger and criticism from those who feel he (Kaep) and they were disrespecting the Flag/Anthem/military - it really seems that many (most?) think they were purposely disrespecting those symbols/institutions. It to answer your question, I think the biggest accomplishment is that it’s got us talking about race. Unfortunately much of that talking is actually yelling and therefore not productive at all, but that’s not entirely the case.
As far as actionable grievances, what are your suggestions? Kaep originally identified police brutality and equality - both actionable, but super tall orders. Where to start? How much pushback from the opposition - whoever “the opposition” may be: those who have a racist agenda (“I see no evidence of police brutality or systemic racism, period”), the militant among the BLM crowd (“the changes you’re asking for are NOT enough - we demand massive and wholesale societal change or we’re gonna start breaking stuff”), etc. Actionable for me, right now, is civil public discourse. A willingness to listen and a capacity to be at least empathetic to the claims that PoC are putting forth.
“So they weren’t protesting systemic racism or social injustice, just our president.” Not gonna mince words here: President Trump’s rhetoric was super unhelpful, in fact it was quite harmful (again, as always, imo) to furthering constructive conversation. I think he only served to further galvanize and divide us with his angry tone. I would have preferred he recognize the kneelers’ rights to protest and right to free speech, but then wish that they would choose another way, time and place to do so. Tell them the Flag and Anthem are sacred symbols of our democracy, and that he’d love to sit down with representatives and hear them out.
Honestly, if I was a black or brown citizen I would be equal parts pissed, alarmed and scared as a result of how the President of all of us seemed to attack and marginalize some of us. This isn’t and never was about “spoiled, rich athletes” - it’s always been about people of color as a whole. The fact that “rich, spoiled athletes” are the catalyst for a very volatile national discussion is okay with me - someone has to have the courage to start the movement that leads to changes that benefit all of us. Otherwise the Rosa Parks, MLKs, Susan B Anthonys, etc will have been in vain.
As always, my opinions. They’re not intended as “you MUST think like me”, but merely to add to what should hopefully be thoughtful and civil discussion.
What has been accomplished by any of those who joined Kaep last year? A whole lotta nothing. There will be no difference until they come up with actionable grievances, simple as that.
>
Oh dear. You expect things to happen overnight? You realize that the movement to free slaves happened over many decades? You realize that the Civil Rights movement, even if you considered the ending point the assassination of MLK was over a decade long? NOTHING of this magnitude will change overnight. A lot of the impact is in just forcing us to even have these types of heated discussions and to try an educate the next generation considering most people are too stubborn to change their views.
No, I expect nothing to ever happen with such an amorphous issue as 'systemic racism and social injustice'. Focus on a specific issue to that end would be far more productive. Not angering a significant portion of the population in the process might be beneficial to the cause as well.
Freeing slaves and equal rights had clear, concise goals, without those the current movement will fail, accomplishing nothing. Simple as that.
@Justacommeman said:
If you’ve done any research at all, you’ll know that protests during the national anthem weren’t started out of a lack of patriotism or love for the United States. Instead, they were about standing up for systemic racism and social injustice.
And this is the fundamental problem that many of us will never agree on. Disrespect of the flag during the NA is antithetical to the goals of opposing 'systemic racism and social injustice'. The flag has stood for American nationalism and rejection of secessionism since the Civil War, something that millions of people fought for, and many thousands died for. They're starting the conversation by antagonizing a significant portion of the people they're trying to get on their side. Not the brightest of moves.
Most of these guys are fighting for nothing, protesting for protests sake, and have no ideas, no plan, no concrete actions and no way to measure the perceived 'systemic racism and social injustice' and whether the impact of their protests and/or other actions are improving the situation or making it worse. Outside of Kaep, what have any of them actually done about it? What are the impacts of what has been done? What is the proof of systemic racism and social injustice, objective measurable facts? Rallies? Nope. Actual protests? Nope. Putting their money where there knee sits? Generally, nope. This whole kneeling/sitting for the NA is nothing but a farce until they come up with some sort of objectively measurable plan and actually take beneficial action. Until this happens, I and many others will continue to see them as unpatriotic whiners. If they actually identify a grievance and get something measurable done rather than kneeling/sitting for the flag, I'll be happy to change my opinion of them and become part of the process, but I'm not holding my breath.
dude if we ever meet i will buy you as many beers as you want and personally uber you home gratis
i made it a point to keep mum on this, but i came awfully close to tossing my two wheat pennies into the fountain. thank you for conserving energy in my fingers so i can go talk about how there needs to be a collective drug test for the Lions' coaching staff
What has been accomplished by any of those who joined Kaep last year? A whole lotta nothing. There will be no difference until they come up with actionable grievances, simple as that.
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Oh dear. You expect things to happen overnight? You realize that the movement to free slaves happened over many decades? You realize that the Civil Rights movement, even if you considered the ending point the assassination of MLK was over a decade long? NOTHING of this magnitude will change overnight. A lot of the impact is in just forcing us to even have these types of heated discussions and to try an educate the next generation considering most people are too stubborn to change their views.
No, I expect nothing to ever happen with such an amorphous issue as 'systemic racism and social injustice'. Focus on a specific issue to that end would be far more productive. Not angering a significant portion of the population in the process might be beneficial to the cause as well.
Freeing slaves and equal rights had clear, concise goals, without those the current movement will fail, accomplishing nothing. Simple as that
Okay, how about tackling “driving while black”? That’s a clearly defined goal, and something that clearly happens. Those of us who are white don’t see this happen in the course of our daily lives, so we are largely blind, ignorant and often dismissive of this widespread complaint from PoC. How do we go about ending the practice of DWB?
Or how about equal punishment for all offenders. That’s been mentioned several times in this thread?
There are many others, of course. As with any social problem, it seems pretty overwhelming sometimes.
@Justacommeman said:
If you’ve done any research at all, you’ll know that protests during the national anthem weren’t started out of a lack of patriotism or love for the United States. Instead, they were about standing up for systemic racism and social injustice.
Most of these guys are fighting for nothing, protesting for protests sake, and have no ideas, no plan, no concrete actions and no way to measure the perceived 'systemic racism and social injustice' and whether the impact of their protests and/or other actions are improving the situation or making it worse. Outside of Kaep, what have any of them actually done about it? What are the impacts of what has been done? What is the proof of systemic racism and social injustice, objective measurable facts? Rallies? Nope. Actual protests? Nope. Putting their money where there knee sits? Generally, nope. This whole kneeling/sitting for the NA is nothing but a farce until they come up with some sort of objectively measurable plan and actually take beneficial action. Until this happens, I and many others will continue to see them as unpatriotic whiners. If they actually identify a grievance and get something measurable done rather than kneeling/sitting for the flag, I'll be happy to change my opinion of them and become part of the process, but I'm not holding my breath.
And how do you know this? You are assuming a lot and stating as fact. I give these guys a whole lot of credit and these guys do indeed face blow back financially and publicly.
What has been accomplished by any of those who joined Kaep last year? A whole lotta nothing. There will be no difference until they come up with actionable grievances, simple as that.
What I think you are missing is that these protests were ramped up this weekend after the C.I.C. Inflammatory speech. They are in the middle of the football season. You think they have time to have protests and rallies right now? Why do protests have to be on the terms of those who are being offended? What's the point?
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So they weren't protesting systemic racism or social injustice, just our president. Got it. So whatever they want to protest, now they do it during the NA further angering many. Great plan. Name 3 NFLers who did anything during the offseason to address systemic racism and social injustice.
Hi, Kyle. Thanks for joining the discussion - appreciate your point of view.
You asked what has been accomplished by any of those who joined Kaep last year. Hard to say, I suppose. It definitely caused further anger and criticism from those who feel he (Kaep) and they were disrespecting the Flag/Anthem/military - it really seems that many (most?) think they were purposely disrespecting those symbols/institutions. It to answer your question, I think the biggest accomplishment is that it’s got us talking about race. Unfortunately much of that talking is actually yelling and therefore not productive at all, but that’s not entirely the case.
You just answered 'What are the impacts of what has been done?' thus far. All talk, no action, lots of people angry.
As far as actionable grievances, what are your suggestions? Kaep originally identified police brutality and equality - both actionable, but super tall orders. Where to start? How much pushback from the opposition - whoever “the opposition” may be: those who have a racist agenda (“I see no evidence of police brutality or systemic racism, period”), the militant among the BLM crowd (“the changes you’re asking for are NOT enough - we demand massive and wholesale societal change or we’re gonna start breaking stuff”), etc. Actionable for me, right now, is civil public discourse. A willingness to listen and a capacity to be at least empathetic to the claims that PoC are putting forth.
Police brutality is a local issue, not one that can or should be addressed nationally. Get the facts from their hometown, city they play in, neighborhood they grew up in (# of brutality cases vs # of police engagements, racial breakdowns, etc). If you don't have these to convince those who don't see an issue, you'll never get widespread support. Use it as a baseline. Spend the offseason setting up police and community engagement utilizing their status as a professional football player to bring both sides together. Avoid the extremists on the issue, visit, stay engaged, measure the impact.
As always, my opinions. They’re not intended as “you MUST think like me”, but merely to add to what should hopefully be thoughtful and civil discussion.
What has been accomplished by any of those who joined Kaep last year? A whole lotta nothing. There will be no difference until they come up with actionable grievances, simple as that.
>
Oh dear. You expect things to happen overnight? You realize that the movement to free slaves happened over many decades? You realize that the Civil Rights movement, even if you considered the ending point the assassination of MLK was over a decade long? NOTHING of this magnitude will change overnight. A lot of the impact is in just forcing us to even have these types of heated discussions and to try an educate the next generation considering most people are too stubborn to change their views.
No, I expect nothing to ever happen with such an amorphous issue as 'systemic racism and social injustice'. Focus on a specific issue to that end would be far more productive. Not angering a significant portion of the population in the process might be beneficial to the cause as well.
Freeing slaves and equal rights had clear, concise goals, without those the current movement will fail, accomplishing nothing. Simple as that
Okay, how about tackling “driving while black”? That’s a clearly defined goal, and something that clearly happens. Those of us who are white don’t see this happen in the course of our daily lives, so we are largely blind, ignorant and often dismissive of this widespread complaint from PoC. How do we go about ending the practice of DWB?
Follow a process, gather stats, prove it's an issue, brainstorm solutions, execute, test if solution was effective and should be expanded or try a different one.
Or how about equal punishment for all offenders. That’s been mentioned several times in this thread?
There are many others, of course. As with any social problem, it seems pretty overwhelming sometimes.
These are clear, concise goals that can be measured and addressed. Players should pick one, prove they can be effective ambassadors, and expand into others. They've got to start with a real issue though, not this 'systemic racism and social injustice' umbrella.
What has been accomplished by any of those who joined Kaep last year? A whole lotta nothing. There will be no difference until they come up with actionable grievances, simple as that.
>
Oh dear. You expect things to happen overnight? You realize that the movement to free slaves happened over many decades? You realize that the Civil Rights movement, even if you considered the ending point the assassination of MLK was over a decade long? NOTHING of this magnitude will change overnight. A lot of the impact is in just forcing us to even have these types of heated discussions and to try an educate the next generation considering most people are too stubborn to change their views.
No, I expect nothing to ever happen with such an amorphous issue as 'systemic racism and social injustice'. Focus on a specific issue to that end would be far more productive. Not angering a significant portion of the population in the process might be beneficial to the cause as well.
Freeing slaves and equal rights had clear, concise goals, without those the current movement will fail, accomplishing nothing. Simple as that.
Once again, what is so unclear about wanting equal treatment under the law? Even if you want to defend all the levels of police brutality and racial profiling that is obviously has been and is going on, why should minorities be sentenced for a longer time in similar situations vs Whites? There is absolutely NO logic to explain things like that other that that there IS social injustice with the justice system.
Rest assured that when the push to end slavery or protesting for equal rights was going on, the majority of Whites did NOT feel there were any worthy goals. In fact, I can't think of a more "amorphous" concept than "civil rights". That's as broad and undefined as one could get. This issue is MUCH more specific in nature with specific statistics to support their grievances.
Under the law, minorities are treated as more than equal (see affirmative action, racial quotas, Rooney rule). There is not a single law in the books that disadvantages a minority. Protest judges who give out racially biased sentences or law enforcement who overstep their bounds, fine. Lumping all judges and law enforcement into the enemy bucket benefits no one.
I said nothing of the worthiness of any cause, just how to effect change, if that's what they're truly after.
Those on either extreme are not likely to be swayed. It's the middle that will make the difference. While the arguments here are pretty passionately even, I don't think this board is a true representation of the populace.
Out of curiosity is the issue with the kneeling, in and of itself or is it leveraging the NA as a platform. Would we be happier if they stood taller or straighter than the rest? Maybe on a soapbox? Do we really want to encourage formal protests? Counter-protests? The potential for violence and/or traffic congestion and civil costs? Or would we prefer to see...or not...2 minutes of peaceful and cost free personal protest? Don't like it, ignore it.
I hate the kneeling myself. I think it muddies the message. But I do
believe in their right to do so and in what they seem to be doing it for. And I think the communities they come from are encouraging them to leverage their platform to do something, anything to start a dialogue, even its its largely passive.
Maybe it's misguided. Maybe it's the wrong platform. But it is a real issue and we need to discuss it as a group and be American about it. I fight with my brothers all the time, but someone else takes a shot and I'm there to defend. We may not like, love, respect or agree with all of our American brethren, but they are American and they are brethren. Things that effect one, will eventually effect all.
Look at the big picture brothers. Do we want another civil war? Minorities vs Whites. Haves vs Have Nots. Will this make a better and stronger nation?
Most of us herebare White and Haves. Some of us are likely ready and able to defend our homes...and possibly anxious to do so. Some are not. Should we get to a point where we have to defend our homes/families due to civil unrest, I'm not sure we'll really be America anymore. A second civil war is where I think we can consider this a failed experiment.
A 2 party system worked for about 200 years. But with our current population, a 2 party system only divides us more. Popular votes are like 49/51. This is a great system for ensuring that half the people are happy and half upset. When in reality, I think propably 65%+ can agree on most issues. I surely fall between both parties. I vote for the best candidate and we got screwed by both parties this time around. I don't own a gun but am pro-NRA. I'm pro-Death penalty. But I also support a woman's right to choose. I support equality. I'm for universal healthcare. I believe America is already great, but would like to make it better and believe we can...but it's not about the extremists on either side. Combine the extremist and you still have a minority. Combine the middle and you have progress.
Lets be honest, NFL players aren't the best spokespeople, but they're making an effort for the communities they come from. Is anyone gonna listen to Tony from Long Island? How about Luna from Oxnard? Will their statements make the news? BTW, all these articles get hits from both sides. The more hits they get, the more likely we are to see more. More hits equals more ad $s. We are perpetuating the phenomenon. You already know what the article will say before you read a single word outside the headline, based on the source. Ignore it, if you want it to go away.
If interested in finding a solution, let's find common ground and avoid the lowest common denominators. Be an agent for change. Calm down the rhetoric, on both sides. Have a little empathy for people from other experiences and backgrounds. Envision a divided future and contrast that with a together future.
What role do you want to play?
52-90 All Sports, Mostly Topps, Mostly HOF, and some assorted wax.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comey had some interesting comments on police brutality:
Not long after riots broke out in Ferguson late last summer, I asked my staff to tell me how many people shot by police were African-American in this country. I wanted to see trends. I wanted to see information. They couldn’t give it to me, and it wasn’t their fault.
...
The first step to understanding what is really going on in our communities and in our country is to gather more and better data related to those we arrest, those we confront for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety, and those who confront us. “Data” seems a dry and boring word but, without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better.
Chris Rock "jokes that racism is so bad that no White man would want to change places with him--and he's rich. Even the White bus boy would pass"
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Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@baseball said:
Yes but police brutality and unfair sentencing is widespread so it IS a national issue and not just a local one.
Police Brutality is NOT just with Blacks, regardless of how much YOU believe it.
I'm sure you're right and I never said it was. But the point is that it is disproportionately against them, regardless of how much YOU want to believe that it isn't.
If the former FBI director can't state that as fact, what gives you the authority?
Dimeman I've seen that and it made me want to puke. Embarrassing even for Foxnews. It panders to the lowest common denominator.
She is pretty hot though. Annoying as all get out
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Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This is the link I meant to reference two posts above.
So you have to change the topic from brutality to sentencing using an obviously biased source in an attempt to score a point? It shows localized disparities at most, not a nationwide problem regardless. Target Oklahoma for sentencing guidelines, I could get behind that. You might want to check the source of data provided, as I'll immediately discount any data provided by 'interviews', 'voluntarily self reported', and other such sources with zero reliability that are presented as hard 'raw data'.
Unironically using Slate as a source for any argument, however, deserves no further comment on any response you post from me.
The first step to understanding what is really going on in our communities and in our country is to gather more and better data related to those we arrest, those we confront for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety, and those who confront us. “Data” seems a dry and boring word but,without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better.
Comments
This is what is confusing to me. The current NFL kneelers are protesting quietly and peacefully, before, during and after the game. If one is going to damn minorities for violent protests ( it is wrong) why not acknowledge them for peaceful protests? Or at least cut them some slack. Or does every thing have to be on certain terms?
I think the message has been registered and there will be less kneelers this weekend. Personally I always stand and actually sing during the National Anthem and always think about all my family that has served.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Because the flag represents the hundreds of thousands that have died defending what that flag stands for. Also these guys in uniform should not be allowed to stage protests on national tv regardless of what it is they want to protest. If these guys want to go about peaceful protests on their own time and stage events outside government buildings and courthouses then they should be free to do it but on their own time they are too busy enjoying the riches from the NFL Money. If it was that important they would continue on their fight off of TV and off the clock, these guys are getting huge money and are lucky to be in the position they are in and should not be disruptive to the league and jam their political beliefs down the throats of everyone trying to enjoy a sporting event.
how are they lucky? They have skills and are being paid for it at a fair market value. Hopefully all of us are lucky enough to have jobs that pay fair market value. But I do think you raise an interesting point. I think part of the issue at hand is that some conservatives and white Americans resent that "these" black players are making millions and "acting up". It doesn't bother this conservative at all.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I don't watch NASCAR but I will root for this guy. Other opinions will vary
Keselowski has always been one of the more patriotic drivers in the sport when it comes to patriotic symbolism. Keselowski always drives around the track after his wins with an American flag. And he puts his money where his mouth is too with his foundation, which helps veterans.
But there is a salient point Keselowski made in his larger point that we want to emphasize. And it’s applicable for everyone who has tried to opine on the topic of athletes protesting during the national anthem.
So please don’t fall for the false narrative of choice between patriotism and racism. It’s simply not the case.
— Brad Keselowski (@keselowski) September 27, 2017
If you’ve done any research at all, you’ll know that protests during the national anthem weren’t started out of a lack of patriotism or love for the United States. Instead, they were about standing up for systemic racism and social injustice.
To us, that’s pretty damn patriotic. If you love your country, you should want to improve it. It’s less patriotic to see systemic issues that need changing and simply shrug your shoulders.
But somehow along the way — and President Donald Trump is as guilty as anyone else of this — the discussion surrounding anthem protests got so warped that it became about a love of the country and the flag that represents it, not about the country’s citizens who may not be treated like everyone else.
How did that happen? We can’t say for sure, but our best guess is because those who had an emotional and visceral reaction against what they saw during the national anthem didn’t take time to understand just what the protests were about. They saw what they wanted to see and built their thoughts accordingly.
And that’s disappointing. If people took the time to figure out why we’re having a discussion about protests instead of drawing their own conclusions to fit their biases, we’re sure that there would still be widespread disagreement. But the conversation would be a whole lot healthier.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The propaganda is flying thick and fast from every direction.
Stand up sit down protest counter protest do whatever you want. Football is not patriotic , national anthems don't have anything to do with sports. How much a person is paid doesn't disqualify them from protesting. The 1st amendment doesn't cover anything but the government silencing people.
It doesn't give the player the right to kneel but if the owner doesn't fire them then they can kneel.
If you don't literally sign the players paycheck it doesn't matter what you think. Turn the channel , spend time with the family , whatever. Stop saying that the employers have to fire them, they don't. The owners can fire them or choose not to.
This whole episode shows what a master of the art of trolling our president is. I think its a mistake to assume that he cares one way or another about any of these subjects, he is just trying to get a reaction . He is pushing buttons more effectively than anyone in politics has ever done here. Its a wild ride we are on and I can't wait to see what comes next.
The NFL has certainly dug a hole they wont come out of unscathed. I believe they feared a player strike and thought they needed to be tolerant. After all, it seems they have given in to left wing propaganda for about the last 10 years, why not dive all in. I stopped watching Football last year and prior to that, never missed many games at all. Obama should of spoken up when he was in office, if he did the response would of been much different. But here we are and of course its T dogs fault. I agree about the distraction comment @Coinstartled made earlier in the thread. Look at the mess in the Senate. And Yellen's comment about our inability to react to a recession due to long term low interest rates has not even been discussed. Real scary that the masses can be hoodwinked so easily.
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
This is one of the truest statements yet (imo). I think the only thing I would change is the last sentence: it’s a wild ride we’re on and I’m kinda nervous to see what comes next.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
I think this is pretty spot on but maybe you are being a little too kind to the CIC.
He plays well to older white Americans males and they end spewing stuff that sounds just like your racist grandpa. My deceased grandpas are smiling in their graves
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Now your just being straight up ignorant. The world is not a perfect place and there are unjust situations across the board that effect everyone regardless of race. You disagree with me and that's fine, you don't like the president I get that too but what I don't get is why you continue to throw your hate at the guy at me where nowhere in this thread have I even mentioned him? I didn't realize that chart was a Trump chart so if that's the reason then understood. As far as me counter protesting goes I don't feel the need to push my beliefs down people's throats. I treat everyone with respect and demand it in return that's how I live my life. If you are so adamant about this new thing about sitting for the flag why haven't you been out preaching this all along? And because Baltimore was such a small fraction of the population it doesn't deserve any disdain? Its always about the minority's that are broke and jobless that people cry the most about injustice and people like you defending them yet you probably ignore the white population that is in the same situation. What difference does color or race have to do with the poor? You either have your stuff together or not, white people that live in squalor and are in and out of jail don't seem to get any attention because they automatically have better shots at education and jobs? Sorry I do t buy that at all, if you go to school and apply yourself in today's society then you have a shot at a good honest living. Nobody is not allowed to go to school or get a job because of skin color or race, your one thing about unjust sentencing for minority's definitely deserves a strong look at but overall if you as a person don't put yourself in a position to get arrested and have a gun put on you by law enforcement then it shouldn't be an issue for anyone doing the right thing.
The only time i used the word "women" in this thread is when I referred to men and women giving their all for this country.
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The goal of many voters is to burn down the whole system and for that I think we chose the right guy. If ,collectively , we are ready to burn down a whole country , rest assured that the NFL is not going to survive it.
All this whining about sports protests is just rearranging deck chairs on the titanic ,..... in fact its just the tip of the iceberg , so you all might want to buckle up
Or a 2018 version of a civil war. Granted not one fought in the trenches
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Baseball please don't continue to avoid my points, it's tiresome and quit frankly it's ignorant behavior on your part.
I figured you would continue to dodge my valid points
That is your assumption.
And this is the fundamental problem that many of us will never agree on. Disrespect of the flag during the NA is antithetical to the goals of opposing 'systemic racism and social injustice'. The flag has stood for American nationalism and rejection of secessionism since the Civil War, something that millions of people fought for, and many thousands died for. They're starting the conversation by antagonizing a significant portion of the people they're trying to get on their side. Not the brightest of moves.
Most of these guys are fighting for nothing, protesting for protests sake, and have no ideas, no plan, no concrete actions and no way to measure the perceived 'systemic racism and social injustice' and whether the impact of their protests and/or other actions are improving the situation or making it worse. Outside of Kaep, what have any of them actually done about it? What are the impacts of what has been done? What is the proof of systemic racism and social injustice, objective measurable facts? Rallies? Nope. Actual protests? Nope. Putting their money where there knee sits? Generally, nope. This whole kneeling/sitting for the NA is nothing but a farce until they come up with some sort of objectively measurable plan and actually take beneficial action. Until this happens, I and many others will continue to see them as unpatriotic whiners. If they actually identify a grievance and get something measurable done rather than kneeling/sitting for the flag, I'll be happy to change my opinion of them and become part of the process, but I'm not holding my breath.
Thank you. I am not blind to the social injustices we have in this country at all. But as a Vet and a person who loves this country (despite it's flaws) I am against disrespecting the Flag and our Country's NA.
And if you want to really get me going.......burn a Flag as a protest!! That is NOT freedom of speech ........that is treason.
If I EVER see anyone burning a Flag (in person).....we will be on the news that night!!!!
Elaborate, please. Are you talking about my statement that there are creeps everywhere? That’s certainly an assumption on my part, and of course cannot be proven. But it’s be silly to assume otherwise - any large gathering of people is bound to have at least one seriously disturbed person.
Or are you taking about my belief that there are far more sexual assaults than are actually reported? Again, hard to put an actual number on that, but given that female accusers are routinely harassed into dropping charges and are often treated awfully by defense attorneys , my assumption is again probably correct. And that’s just for sexual assault among the normal populace. My assumption is that the problem is much larger among athletes because of the immense money at stake.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
This part:
Or are you taking about my belief that there are far more sexual assaults than are actually reported? Again, hard to put an actual number on that, but given that female accusers are routinely harassed into dropping charges and are often treated awfully by defense attorneys , my assumption is again probably correct. And that’s just for sexual assault among the normal populace. My assumption is that the problem is much larger among athletes because of the immense money at stake.
This is your view (and your right) but is only a view that could be right or wrong. That's all I am saying.
Fair enough
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
And how do you know this? You are assuming a lot and using that as your basis for fact.. I give these guys a whole lot of credit and these guys do indeed face blow back financially and publicly.
What I think you are missing is that these protests were ramped up this weekend after the C.I.C. Inflammatory speech. They are in the middle of the football season. You think they have time to have protests and rallies right now? Why do protests have to be on the terms of those who are being offended? What's the point?
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
What has been accomplished by any of those who joined Kaep last year? A whole lotta nothing. There will be no difference until they come up with actionable grievances, simple as that.
So they weren't protesting systemic racism or social injustice, just our president. Got it. So whatever they want to protest, now they do it during the NA further angering many. Great plan. Name 3 NFLers who did anything during the offseason to address systemic racism and social injustice.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-27/trump-goes-nuclear-nfl-will-go-hell
This is going to be great . I think the players will come out of this just fine , they are basically expendable anyway but if people get mad enough at the NFL owners maybe they will have to start paying for their own stadiums.
If ratings go lower then that helps to kill ESPN too , overall it's a win win in my book. I doubt it leads to any real progress on race relations but if it unites the poor versus the rich then that would be a plus. It's what the 1% fears the most , the debt serfs awakening and stringing them up from the nearest lamp post.
You can't name any player that addresses social injustice on his own personal time because they are too busy enjoying that NFL lifestyle to give a crap just like Kap letting everyone know he will now stand for the flag IF HE IS HIRED! It's a joke that these guys are even getting credit for this crap. Goodell the COWARD is a joke for allowing this to go on, if he had a set of balls he would either remove the flag and anthem from the before game ritual or tell these guys he will not allow protesting while in uniform on TV.
All it does is divide. But, that's probably part of the plan. His popularity is waning so what's the best way to rally his troops? The patriotic card against black athletes. Brilliant
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I'm enjoying this discourse and grateful that this thread and no one in it has been nuked. This thread reminds me of Sunday dinner at my folks minus the black eye someone used to receive. My sisters did most of the giving.
My folks were Detroit super Libs and Union Brats. That automatically made me a conservative and anti union. We still debate about the the same crap like we are going to change each other's minds at this point
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
There are scared cows getting tipped over , sleeping dogs are being woken up , and a lot of complacent people are getting nervous. On my way home from work yesterday I even saw an applecart that had been upset.
It got me thinking , it's too early for apples but maybe in a week or two I'll head to Bolton to the pick your own orchard on a Sunday afternoon and skip the whole NFL thing.
Hi, Kyle. Thanks for joining the discussion - appreciate your point of view.
You asked what has been accomplished by any of those who joined Kaep last year. Hard to say, I suppose. It definitely caused further anger and criticism from those who feel he (Kaep) and they were disrespecting the Flag/Anthem/military - it really seems that many (most?) think they were purposely disrespecting those symbols/institutions. It to answer your question, I think the biggest accomplishment is that it’s got us talking about race. Unfortunately much of that talking is actually yelling and therefore not productive at all, but that’s not entirely the case.
As far as actionable grievances, what are your suggestions? Kaep originally identified police brutality and equality - both actionable, but super tall orders. Where to start? How much pushback from the opposition - whoever “the opposition” may be: those who have a racist agenda (“I see no evidence of police brutality or systemic racism, period”), the militant among the BLM crowd (“the changes you’re asking for are NOT enough - we demand massive and wholesale societal change or we’re gonna start breaking stuff”), etc. Actionable for me, right now, is civil public discourse. A willingness to listen and a capacity to be at least empathetic to the claims that PoC are putting forth.
“So they weren’t protesting systemic racism or social injustice, just our president.” Not gonna mince words here: President Trump’s rhetoric was super unhelpful, in fact it was quite harmful (again, as always, imo) to furthering constructive conversation. I think he only served to further galvanize and divide us with his angry tone. I would have preferred he recognize the kneelers’ rights to protest and right to free speech, but then wish that they would choose another way, time and place to do so. Tell them the Flag and Anthem are sacred symbols of our democracy, and that he’d love to sit down with representatives and hear them out.
Honestly, if I was a black or brown citizen I would be equal parts pissed, alarmed and scared as a result of how the President of all of us seemed to attack and marginalize some of us. This isn’t and never was about “spoiled, rich athletes” - it’s always been about people of color as a whole. The fact that “rich, spoiled athletes” are the catalyst for a very volatile national discussion is okay with me - someone has to have the courage to start the movement that leads to changes that benefit all of us. Otherwise the Rosa Parks, MLKs, Susan B Anthonys, etc will have been in vain.
As always, my opinions. They’re not intended as “you MUST think like me”, but merely to add to what should hopefully be thoughtful and civil discussion.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
No, I expect nothing to ever happen with such an amorphous issue as 'systemic racism and social injustice'. Focus on a specific issue to that end would be far more productive. Not angering a significant portion of the population in the process might be beneficial to the cause as well.
Freeing slaves and equal rights had clear, concise goals, without those the current movement will fail, accomplishing nothing. Simple as that.
dude if we ever meet i will buy you as many beers as you want and personally uber you home gratis
i made it a point to keep mum on this, but i came awfully close to tossing my two wheat pennies into the fountain. thank you for conserving energy in my fingers so i can go talk about how there needs to be a collective drug test for the Lions' coaching staff
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
Okay, how about tackling “driving while black”? That’s a clearly defined goal, and something that clearly happens. Those of us who are white don’t see this happen in the course of our daily lives, so we are largely blind, ignorant and often dismissive of this widespread complaint from PoC. How do we go about ending the practice of DWB?
Or how about equal punishment for all offenders. That’s been mentioned several times in this thread?
There are many others, of course. As with any social problem, it seems pretty overwhelming sometimes.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
You just answered 'What are the impacts of what has been done?' thus far. All talk, no action, lots of people angry.
Police brutality is a local issue, not one that can or should be addressed nationally. Get the facts from their hometown, city they play in, neighborhood they grew up in (# of brutality cases vs # of police engagements, racial breakdowns, etc). If you don't have these to convince those who don't see an issue, you'll never get widespread support. Use it as a baseline. Spend the offseason setting up police and community engagement utilizing their status as a professional football player to bring both sides together. Avoid the extremists on the issue, visit, stay engaged, measure the impact.
I concur.
That could get very expensive.
Follow a process, gather stats, prove it's an issue, brainstorm solutions, execute, test if solution was effective and should be expanded or try a different one.
These are clear, concise goals that can be measured and addressed. Players should pick one, prove they can be effective ambassadors, and expand into others. They've got to start with a real issue though, not this 'systemic racism and social injustice' umbrella.
Under the law, minorities are treated as more than equal (see affirmative action, racial quotas, Rooney rule). There is not a single law in the books that disadvantages a minority. Protest judges who give out racially biased sentences or law enforcement who overstep their bounds, fine. Lumping all judges and law enforcement into the enemy bucket benefits no one.
I said nothing of the worthiness of any cause, just how to effect change, if that's what they're truly after.
What organization controls police nationally?
Those on either extreme are not likely to be swayed. It's the middle that will make the difference. While the arguments here are pretty passionately even, I don't think this board is a true representation of the populace.
Out of curiosity is the issue with the kneeling, in and of itself or is it leveraging the NA as a platform. Would we be happier if they stood taller or straighter than the rest? Maybe on a soapbox? Do we really want to encourage formal protests? Counter-protests? The potential for violence and/or traffic congestion and civil costs? Or would we prefer to see...or not...2 minutes of peaceful and cost free personal protest? Don't like it, ignore it.
I hate the kneeling myself. I think it muddies the message. But I do
believe in their right to do so and in what they seem to be doing it for. And I think the communities they come from are encouraging them to leverage their platform to do something, anything to start a dialogue, even its its largely passive.
Maybe it's misguided. Maybe it's the wrong platform. But it is a real issue and we need to discuss it as a group and be American about it. I fight with my brothers all the time, but someone else takes a shot and I'm there to defend. We may not like, love, respect or agree with all of our American brethren, but they are American and they are brethren. Things that effect one, will eventually effect all.
Look at the big picture brothers. Do we want another civil war? Minorities vs Whites. Haves vs Have Nots. Will this make a better and stronger nation?
Most of us herebare White and Haves. Some of us are likely ready and able to defend our homes...and possibly anxious to do so. Some are not. Should we get to a point where we have to defend our homes/families due to civil unrest, I'm not sure we'll really be America anymore. A second civil war is where I think we can consider this a failed experiment.
A 2 party system worked for about 200 years. But with our current population, a 2 party system only divides us more. Popular votes are like 49/51. This is a great system for ensuring that half the people are happy and half upset. When in reality, I think propably 65%+ can agree on most issues. I surely fall between both parties. I vote for the best candidate and we got screwed by both parties this time around. I don't own a gun but am pro-NRA. I'm pro-Death penalty. But I also support a woman's right to choose. I support equality. I'm for universal healthcare. I believe America is already great, but would like to make it better and believe we can...but it's not about the extremists on either side. Combine the extremist and you still have a minority. Combine the middle and you have progress.
Lets be honest, NFL players aren't the best spokespeople, but they're making an effort for the communities they come from. Is anyone gonna listen to Tony from Long Island? How about Luna from Oxnard? Will their statements make the news? BTW, all these articles get hits from both sides. The more hits they get, the more likely we are to see more. More hits equals more ad $s. We are perpetuating the phenomenon. You already know what the article will say before you read a single word outside the headline, based on the source. Ignore it, if you want it to go away.
If interested in finding a solution, let's find common ground and avoid the lowest common denominators. Be an agent for change. Calm down the rhetoric, on both sides. Have a little empathy for people from other experiences and backgrounds. Envision a divided future and contrast that with a together future.
What role do you want to play?
Indeed
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Avoiding assumptions when there's no data or statistics to back them up, no matter how many times they're repeated
Police Brutality is NOT just with Blacks, regardless of how much YOU believe it.
Comey had some interesting comments on police brutality:
Not long after riots broke out in Ferguson late last summer, I asked my staff to tell me how many people shot by police were African-American in this country. I wanted to see trends. I wanted to see information. They couldn’t give it to me, and it wasn’t their fault.
...
The first step to understanding what is really going on in our communities and in our country is to gather more and better data related to those we arrest, those we confront for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety, and those who confront us. “Data” seems a dry and boring word but, without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better.
Chris Rock "jokes that racism is so bad that no White man would want to change places with him--and he's rich. Even the White bus boy would pass"
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Dodgers fans are the bestest. For reals.
@vintagefun, thanks for your post. Well written, and applies hammers to nails all the way through.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
If the former FBI director can't state that as fact, what gives you the authority?
Here's a thought.....
http://insider.foxnews.com/2017/09/25/tomi-lahren-final-thoughts-free-speech-lesson-nfl-anthem-protesters
Dimeman I've seen that and it made me want to puke. Embarrassing even for Foxnews. It panders to the lowest common denominator.
She is pretty hot though. Annoying as all get out
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
http://www.dailywire.com/news/7347/7-statistics-show-systemic-racism-doesnt-exist-aaron-bandler
I believe this is more in tune. He is not as hot
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
So you have to change the topic from brutality to sentencing using an obviously biased source in an attempt to score a point? It shows localized disparities at most, not a nationwide problem regardless. Target Oklahoma for sentencing guidelines, I could get behind that. You might want to check the source of data provided, as I'll immediately discount any data provided by 'interviews', 'voluntarily self reported', and other such sources with zero reliability that are presented as hard 'raw data'.
Unironically using Slate as a source for any argument, however, deserves no further comment on any response you post from me.
The first step to understanding what is really going on in our communities and in our country is to gather more and better data related to those we arrest, those we confront for breaking the law and jeopardizing public safety, and those who confront us. “Data” seems a dry and boring word but, without it, we cannot understand our world and make it better.
Wow, I guess I haven't seen Dale Hansen in a while. Hardly recognized him.
Democratic Senator Joe Manchin on the matter:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=4W10i3o_IpA
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet