Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@baseball said:
DA, for a statistician your certainly aren't looking very analytically at the crime and police shooting statistics. While your comments may have a technical truth to them, they completely ignore the fact that the White population is five times larger and you are not looking at incident rates but rather just total gross numbers. Up and down the line, the rate of arrests, arrests turning to conviction, sentences being higher for same crimes, and unarmed people being shot are disproportionately in disfavor for the African American population. This isn't debatable. These are FACTS. You can try to justify for yourself however you want as to why that is but your post is inaccurate, either due to ignorance (because you only care enough to gloss over the issue) or due to willful misguidance. Either way, you're flat out wrong.
Dallas is 100% correct. The statistics show that police brutality is color blind.
The difference is, only the white cop killing the black guy makes the news.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Interesting article about Jones and the Cowboys also debunking the fallacy that Jones ever told his players anything they had to do with regard to standing or kneeling for the national anthem.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@baseball said:
DA, for a statistician your certainly aren't looking very analytically at the crime and police shooting statistics. While your comments may have a technical truth to them, they completely ignore the fact that the White population is five times larger and you are not looking at incident rates but rather just total gross numbers. Up and down the line, the rate of arrests, arrests turning to conviction, sentences being higher for same crimes, and unarmed people being shot are disproportionately in disfavor for the African American population. This isn't debatable. These are FACTS. You can try to justify for yourself however you want as to why that is but your post is inaccurate, either due to ignorance (because you only care enough to gloss over the issue) or due to willful misguidance. Either way, you're flat out wrong.
Dallas is 100% correct. The statistics show that police brutality is >
The difference is, only the white cop killing the black guy makes the news.
nevermind. You are a lost soul if you truly believe this
Mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@baseball said:
DA, for a statistician your certainly aren't looking very analytically at the crime and police shooting statistics. While your comments may have a technical truth to them, they completely ignore the fact that the White population is five times larger and you are not looking at incident rates but rather just total gross numbers. Up and down the line, the rate of arrests, arrests turning to conviction, sentences being higher for same crimes, and unarmed people being shot are disproportionately in disfavor for the African American population. This isn't debatable. These are FACTS. You can try to justify for yourself however you want as to why that is but your post is inaccurate, either due to ignorance (because you only care enough to gloss over the issue) or due to willful misguidance. Either way, you're flat out wrong.
Dallas is 100% correct. The statistics show that police brutality is >
The difference is, only the white cop killing the black guy makes the news.
nevermind. You are a lost soul if you truly believe this
Mark
Prove me wrong.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Regarding shooting statistics, there's a couple ways you can look at it:
1) If you go by police contacts, whites are shot proportionately more often.
2) If you go by population, blacks are shot more often.
Both of those can be argued as to the causes behind them.
Now, for a counterpoint to the "blacks are overarrested, oversentenced, and so on" argument - if we take this argument at face value, why does no one ever claim the police and/or criminal justice system is sexist? Men are arrested far more often than women and sentenced to far greater terms than women, for the exact same crimes.
@Tabe said:
Regarding shooting statistics, there's a couple ways you can look at it:
1) If you go by police contacts, whites are shot proportionately more often.
2) If you go by population, blacks are shot more often.
Both of those can be argued as to the causes behind them.
Now, for a counterpoint to the "blacks are overarrested, oversentenced, and so on" argument - if we take this argument at face value, why does no one ever claim the police and/or criminal justice system is sexist? Men are arrested far more often than women and sentenced to far greater terms than women, for the exact same crimes.
Yep good point. When it comes to the system, whether it be criminal, or divorce court. Men are treated like rats compared to women. Funny how the left never complains or protests over those prejudices.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Baseball you will won't get an answer to your questions from the conservatives here. There is no answer that fits into their echo chamber.
For law enforcement being the most "diverse" organizations in the country they certainly have a terrible record of abusing minorities constitutional rights. That is not simply an opinion look at the Justice department investigations of law enforcement agencies some time. However we had this same discussion last year and people just don't want to read/accept things that contradict their beliefs (this applies to folks on both sides of the argument). Some people simply believe the police are good. It is based on their upbringing and their own personal experiences. No amount of articles, facts, example, etc will ever change their core belief.
The NFL and the media has said over and over that this is all about free speech? But Villanueva can't express his according to Mike Tomlin after ripping him for standing. Which shows you this was never ever about free speech, its about liberals forcing others to bow to their will.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
And he has since apologized to his teammates for throwing them under a bus. I feel bad for him. He was put in a tough spot
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@perkdog said:
And Big Ben regrets staying inside the tunnel
Yep. Tough spot they were all put in
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@LarkinCollector said:
Protesting is fine when:
b) people have a clue what you're protesting - I still have no idea what any current NFL player is attempting to accomplish by kneeling, staying in the locker room, locking arms, etc.
I mean this with all due respect: If you don't know what they're protesting, you've been intentionally avoiding finding out. Kaep said it over and over and it's been mentioned a ton of times since. They're protesting police violence against minorities and mistreatment of/racism against minorities.
As I stated, I know what Kaep was protesting. I haven't heard another player state it and if you believe that's what they were protesting this past weekend, you're naive.
@garnettstyle said:
The NFL and the media has said over and over that this is all about free speech? But Villanueva can't express his according to Mike Tomlin after ripping him for standing. Which shows you this was never ever about free speech, its about liberals forcing others to bow to their will.
Villanueva isn't spinning it like you. I think I'll go with him
Every single time I see that picture of me standing by myself, I feel embarrassed,” Villanueva said (via the Pittsburgh Post Gazette
"Unfortunately, I threw (my teammates) under the bus, unintentionally," Villanueva said.
"I made coach (Mike) Tomlin look bad, and that is my fault and my fault only," he said. "I made my teammates look bad, and that is my fault and my fault only.”
Both Villanueva and Roethlisberger regretted the way the entire situation played out. Roethlisberger said the team will be on the field for the anthem before their next game Sunday in Baltimore.
"We as a team tried to figure it out, obviously we butchered it. … I'm not gonna pretend I have some kind of righteous voice," Villanueva said.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@garnettstyle said:
When Trump speaks people listen. Sunday night football drew their worst ratings ever.
The president has now tweeted about the NFL 21 different times in the last three days. And as is very often the case with Trump’s tweets, clarification and correction is necessary.
Ratings for this week’s games were not “way down”; in fact, every measure indicates that ratings for Week 3 would be up, particularly once the highly popular Cowboys’ appearance on Monday Night Football is factored in. (We’ll leave it to you to decide whether there is some measurable slice of the American public tuning in for exactly 90 seconds to watch the anthem, then tuning out in disgust.)
Sunday Nights game was ugly
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
And he has since apologized to his teammates for throwing them under a bus. I feel bad for him. He was put in a tough spot
mark
Tougher than serving his country during multiple tours? Get a grip, marc.
I didn't say that. You just did. I saw his presser and I'm a huge fan of his. Much respect. He was put a tough spot. The Steelers over thought this trying to take the high road. That's the shame of it. They will be back on the field for next weeks anthem. Thank goodness
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Coinstartled said:
This event reminds me of the Occupy Wall Street Protests of about 5 years ago. Well organized and highly publicized, nobody really knew what the protesters were rallying against...including the protesters.
The NFL kneelers seem to be against Trump, racism and exhibit a general hatred of cops. Early on, Snowflake Colin stated some objections to Hillary as well.
As they cannibalize the sport that made them wealthy, they should at least hire a good PR firm and focus their grievances.
“This idea that black people should be grateful is some sneaky-ass racism,” Noah said. “When a white billionaire spends a year screaming that America is a disaster, he’s in touch with the country. But when a black man kneels quietly, he should be grateful for the successes that America has allowed him to have? How is that ungrateful? I don’t understand.”
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@baseball said:
Why do white collar criminals that swindle millions upon millions sometimes stealing hundreds or thousands of peoples' life savings get such light sentences?
You asked the question, so I assume you have the statistics to back it up. Please share what the average sentence is for a white collar criminal who was convicted of stealing "millions upon millions" of dollars. Madoff got 150 years; the father of the man who married my cousin swindled a whole lot less but he got about 10 years in federal prison. So for the two examples I know off the top of my head the average is 80 years, but you've apparently got stats that show otherwise. Also, please explain what this has to do with the protests; are you saying blacks are incapable of holding white collar jobs? I hope not.
Why to pedophiles get such light sentences?
Ditto - please share the average sentence for pedophiles and what this has to do with the protests.
Why does one state not require a unanimous jury vote to convict?
Huh? What does this have to do with the protests?
Why do some states allow capital punishment and others not?
Huh? What does this have to do with the protests?
Why is double jeopardy allowed by changing jurisdiction to the federal courts?
Amen, brother, this should never be allowed. I have no idea why you mentioned it here, though, because it is a tactic that is used all the time against police after they have been acquitted in state courts.
Why are there such difference in sentencing guidelines between each state?
Because criminal justice is a state, not federal, matter. But I don't know why you're asking in the context of this thread.
Why do allow judges (most all of whom seem to have agendas) to arbitrarily decide sentences based largely on whim, or worse, biases which sometimes include racism.
The white Republican governor of Maryland recently proposed a law requiring mandatory minimum sentences for gun possession. The black community rose up to denounce him and demand that judges retain the discretion to view each defendant on a case by case basis. If you want to remove the possibility of racial bias from judges, you have to remove all of their discretion, and mandatory prison sentences will be attached to pretty much every conviction. I'm OK with that - it's an approach favored by most conservatives - but I'm surprised you support it, too.
And on and on and on. For my part, I would love to see a unified code of law with one primary law enforcement agency which would presumably cut down significantly on cost, red tape and more consistently apply punishment from one end of this country to the other.
Yes, a national police force is pretty much a universal sign that you've entered a left-wing dictatorship of some kind, but free countries all do their best to avoid them.
But this is not about all the flaws with the justice system. It's about NFL players protesting what they deem to be a social injustice.
I am so confused. You asked a bunch of questions here, but I don't understand how any of them pertain to the protests. Are you saying the issues in your questions are what the kneelers want addressed, or are you just showing off your straw man collection?
What was your point again?
Maybe if someone would answer this question it would lift the fog: I, average Joe American, see some really rich people kneeling during the national anthem. What is it that these really rich people want me to DO now that I've seen them kneeling? Because either there is an answer or this is a farce.
And as for my earlier statement which Tabe fleshed out for me, I think it should go without saying but maybe it doesn't that police do not shoot people among the general population with magic bullets that strike people randomly in their homes, they only shoot people that they come into contact with, so that's the only statistic that has any meaning. Given the people that it is possible for them to shoot, police are more likely to shoot a white person than a black person. Given the black people that are shot by policemen, they are more likely to have been shot by a black policeman than by a white policeman. I repeat these because they are awfully important facts to know when pondering what changes, if any, are needed to our way of policing.
“This idea that black people should be grateful is some sneaky-ass racism,” Noah said. “When a white billionaire spends a year screaming that America is a disaster, he’s in touch with the country. But when a black man kneels quietly, he should be grateful for the successes that America has allowed him to have? How is that ungrateful? I don’t understand.”
This made me laugh. "White billionaire" vs. "black man". I guess "white billionaire" vs. "black millionaire" didn't sound self-righteous enough. And yeah, millionaires regardless of the color of their skin should be grateful for the successes that America has allowed them to have. That ought to be, and used to be, self-evident to everyone, and still is self-evident to almost everyone. It's the failure to grasp that point that makes the kneelers look so foolish.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
I think it's equally foolish to pretend to know the intent of each of the kneelers.
What makes one think they aren't grateful for the success they have? Because they are kneeling? That leap I can't make.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
And he has since apologized to his teammates for throwing them under a bus. I feel bad for him. He was put in a tough spot
mark
Tougher than serving his country during multiple tours? Get a grip, marc.
I didn't say that. You just did. I saw his presser and I'm a huge fan of his. Much respect. He was put a tough spot. The Steelers over thought this trying to take the high road. That's the shame of it. They will be back on the field for next weeks anthem. Thank goodness
mark
How was he put in a tough spot? The man was willing to take a bullet for his country. He is worried about hurting the feelings of a bunch of roided brats?
For those that think these athletes are only doing this as some sort of "look at me" thing, or that "kneeler zero (Colin Kaepernick) is guilty of the same, or that this whole racism thing is overblown...
Racism is real. It's not a small problem. It exists in every demographic, every race, every religion - it exists in small or large part in ALL of us. Is each of us man enough to admit it and confront it, or conversely admit it and embrace it?
dallasactuary, to address your comments on Trevor Noah's (not Joaquim - thanks, Mark!) quote above: while I see the point you're making, I think that lost in all of this controversy is that these athletes, starting with Kaepernick, are using their unique voices to bring to light an issue that plagues our society. It gives voice to the voiceless - in other words, an individual, ordinary (ordinary as in not having a huge pubic platform) black citizen kneeling during the Anthem would not bring the necessary attention to this huge issue of race in the same way a professional athlete can. The failure to grasp that point likewise makes those who think this is ONLY about disrespecting the Flag/Anthem/military/country look foolish.
And he has since apologized to his teammates for throwing them under a bus. I feel bad for him. He was put in a tough spot
mark
Tougher than serving his country during multiple tours? Get a grip, marc.
I didn't say that. You just did. I saw his presser and I'm a huge fan of his. Much respect. He was put a tough spot. The Steelers over thought this trying to take the high road. That's the shame of it. They will be back on the field for next weeks anthem. Thank goodness
mark
How was he put in a tough spot? The man was willing to take a bullet for his country. He is worried about hurting the feelings of a bunch of roided brats?
I guess because he felt guilt afterwards and wished he would have stayed with his team mates. It should have never came to that. It was a dumb plan and hence tough spot. He shouldn't have had to choose
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
I think it's equally foolish to pretend to know the intent of each of the kneelers.
What makes one think they aren't grateful for the success they have? Because they are kneeling? That leap I can't make.
Could well be, but then I was just laughing at the way Noah constructed his comparison. It's unavoidable, really. When a liberal makes a political argument, it contains a straw man. In Noah's case, it was the word "man" where "millionaire" was the correct word given how he set up the comparison.
I also think it's apparent at this point that the great majority of those kneeling/staying in the locker room/whatever couldn't care less about the issues, if any, that are motivating their more self-righteous teammates. They're just feeling coerced into it to keep peace in the locker room.
@TNP777 said:
dallasactuary, to address your comments on Trevor Noah's (not Joaquim - thanks, Mark!) quote above: while I see the point you're making, I think that lost in all of this controversy is that these athletes, starting with Kaepernick, are using their unique voices to bring to light an issue that plagues our society. It gives voice to the voiceless - in other words, an individual, ordinary (ordinary as in not having a huge pubic platform) black citizen kneeling during the Anthem would not bring the necessary attention to this huge issue of race in the same way a professional athlete can. The failure to grasp that point likewise makes those who think this is ONLY about disrespecting the Flag/Anthem/military/country look foolish.
OK, but first lets agree that we can all laugh at what Noah said. It was a transparent straw man.
With regard to the rest, sure, that they are famous gives them a wider audience. But they all (the one's I've seen interviewed) seem to lack the self-awareness that they are privileged 1%er millionaires. When CK wears socks depicting cops as pigs, he's not speaking for others he's speaking for himself. And he looks like a hypocritical idiot. And just so I'm sure we're on the same page, when you say that what they are doing is not ONLY about disrespecting the Flag/Anthem/military/country, I agree. But it is, in part, about disrespecting the Flag/Anthem/military/country. That they have chosen disrespect for the country as the platform from which to launch their protest renders the rest of what they intended to do moot. When you start from that point, nobody listens. Nobody is listening. Nobody cares. Whatever they intended to accomplish, they have already failed although they no doubt don't realize that yet. The NFL will be the only real loser in all of this, and Trump will be among the biggest winners. Good job, guys, way to go.
And when you say "an issue that plagues our society", to what issue are you referring? That's a rhetorical question, and I ask it just to point out that if you did ask that question of 100 people (on both sides) you'd get 100 different answers. It is difficult to imagine a group of people less competent to be the "voice for the voiceless" than CK and the others who were kneeling before kneeling became more or less mandatory. Being millionaires started them off in a very deep hole, and that hole just keeps getting deeper every week. At some point they'll stop digging and we can assess the damage they've done to the league and to the country.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@baseball said:
DA, as you personally declared, you obvious are very "confused". The whole point of my post which you seem to incoherently babble on about is that none of those issues are a topic germane to this thread. And we could ask endlessly more questions about elements of the justice system that make no sense, depending on who is judging it.
That was my "point" since your reading comprehension leaves apparently much to be desired.
It did not occur to me that your intention was to babble incoherently, and at such great length, on purpose. I thought you were trying to say something that might be of interest to somebody, anybody, else. I will not make that mistake again, and my apologies.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
And he has since apologized to his teammates for throwing them under a bus. I feel bad for him. He was put in a tough spot
mark
Tougher than serving his country during multiple tours? Get a grip, marc.
I didn't say that. You just did. I saw his presser and I'm a huge fan of his. Much respect. He was put a tough spot. The Steelers over thought this trying to take the high road. That's the shame of it. They will be back on the field for next weeks anthem. Thank goodness
mark
How was he put in a tough spot? The man was willing to take a bullet for his country. He is worried about hurting the feelings of a bunch of roided brats?
I guess because he felt guilt afterwards and wished he would have stayed with his team mates. It should have never came to that. It was a dumb plan and hence tough spot. He shouldn't have had to choose
mark
You believe that an Army special ops guy would stand in the tunnel during the anthem? No way. He was trying to cover for his idiot coach and teammates.
And he has since apologized to his teammates for throwing them under a bus. I feel bad for him. He was put in a tough spot
mark
Tougher than serving his country during multiple tours? Get a grip, marc.
I didn't say that. You just did. I saw his presser and I'm a huge fan of his. Much respect. He was put a tough spot. The Steelers over thought this trying to take the high road. That's the shame of it. They will be back on the field for next weeks anthem. Thank goodness
mark
How was he put in a tough spot? The man was willing to take a bullet for his country. He is worried about hurting the feelings of a bunch of roided brats?
I guess because he felt guilt afterwards and wished he would have stayed with his team mates. It should have never came to that. It was a dumb plan and hence tough spot. He shouldn't have had to choose
mark
You believe that an Army special ops guy would stand in the tunnel during the anthem? No way. He was trying to cover for his idiot coach and teammates.
Hmm... then I guess the comments he made afterward make him a liar. That’s not a good look for an Army special ops guy. (note: I’m not actually calling him that - just rebutting another ridiculous statement by the Glicker)
Or maybe, just maybe, he actually meant what he said afterwards - that he didn’t mean to be so far outside the tunnel, wanted to support his teammates, and merely wanted to see the Flag during the Anthem.
@Justacommeman said:
I think it's equally foolish to pretend to know the intent of each of the kneelers.
What makes one think they aren't grateful for the success they have? Because they are kneeling? That leap I can't make.
Could well be, but then I was just laughing at the way Noah constructed his comparison. It's unavoidable, really. When a liberal makes a political argument, it contains a straw man. In Noah's case, it was the word "man" where "millionaire" was the correct word given how he set up the comparison.
I also think it's apparent at this point that the great majority of those kneeling/staying in the locker room/whatever couldn't care less about the issues, if any, that are motivating their more self-righteous teammates. They're just feeling coerced into it to keep peace in the locker room.
Seems to me (pay attention - I'm speaking only for myself) that it's pretty arrogant to suggest that the great majority of these athletes couldn't care less about the issues. You might believe that or want to believe that - it fits your personal narrative. I'm sure you're right about many of the players, though. It's possible that some don't care, or don't want to be bothered, or outright disagree but are going along with what the majority of the team decides (for unity's sake).
@TNP777 said:
dallasactuary, to address your comments on Trevor Noah's (not Joaquim - thanks, Mark!) quote above: while I see the point you're making, I think that lost in all of this controversy is that these athletes, starting with Kaepernick, are using their unique voices to bring to light an issue that plagues our society. It gives voice to the voiceless - in other words, an individual, ordinary (ordinary as in not having a huge pubic platform) black citizen kneeling during the Anthem would not bring the necessary attention to this huge issue of race in the same way a professional athlete can. The failure to grasp that point likewise makes those who think this is ONLY about disrespecting the Flag/Anthem/military/country look foolish.
OK, but first lets agree that we can all laugh at what Noah said. It was a transparent straw man.
With regard to the rest, sure, that they are famous gives them a wider audience. But they all (the one's I've seen interviewed) seem to lack the self-awareness that they are privileged 1%er millionaires. When CK wears socks depicting cops as pigs, he's not speaking for others he's speaking for himself. And he looks like a hypocritical idiot. And just so I'm sure we're on the same page, when you say that what they are doing is not ONLY about disrespecting the Flag/Anthem/military/country, I agree. But it is, in part, about disrespecting the Flag/Anthem/military/country. That they have chosen disrespect for the country as the platform from which to launch their protest renders the rest of what they intended to do moot. When you start from that point, nobody listens. Nobody is listening. Nobody cares. Whatever they intended to accomplish, they have already failed although they no doubt don't realize that yet. The NFL will be the only real loser in all of this, and Trump will be among the biggest winners. Good job, guys, way to go.
And when you say "an issue that plagues our society", to what issue are you referring? That's a rhetorical question, and I ask it just to point out that if you did ask that question of 100 people (on both sides) you'd get 100 different answers. It is difficult to imagine a group of people less competent to be the "voice for the voiceless" than CK and the others who were kneeling before kneeling became more or less mandatory. Being millionaires started them off in a very deep hole, and that hole just keeps getting deeper every week. At some point they'll stop digging and we can assess the damage they've done to the league and to the country.
I'm not sure what interviews you've watched, but to a man, the athletes I've seen interviewed know exactly what and why they're protesting. Are the interviews you've seen shown anywhere other than FOXNews? (yes, I know I'm making an assumption about where you watch your news - apologies if I'm wrong on that)
I agree with you regarding the cop/pig socks Kaepernick was wearing. It's more than obvious that I agree with his message and his right to kneel, but those socks certainly did not help help him in the least. They are offensive, and I wish he hadn't chosen to wear them. However, if you're focusing solely on the socks and discounting everything that's come out of his mouth, then (in my opinion) you're being willfully ignorant about his message and how he chose to address it.
Regarding your second bolded statement, nobody is listening, nobody cares: again, if you actually believe this, you (again, in my opinion) are being willfully ignorant, along with blind and deaf. I also want to point out that it drives me crazy when anyone, and I've done it, too, makes a statement about "nobody" or "everyone" and purports to be speaking on "everyone's" behalf. That this thread (and others, such as "Is Kaepernick a jerk?") are proof positive that people do care. That this is a national topic, with passionate response from both sides, is proof positive that not only do people care, but that it can't and shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that the NFL will lose and the President will win. What's winning? People being forced to pay false homage to a piece of cloth and a song? Is that what America should be - forced and false pride in symbols? Or should America continue to stand on the very freedoms promised in our Bill of Rights and the Constitution? That's the kind of America that I'm proud of. And for the record, I take great pride in our Flag and Anthem. I do stop talking and do place my hand over my heart when the Anthem is played in public. I do not do so at home, though. Not sure if that's a bad or good thing - I've never given it much thought to be honest.
Personally, I think these athletes have already "won". We are talking, quietly and respectfully in many cases and forcefully and angrily in others, about very difficult and uncomfortable topics: race, equality, discrimination, patriotism and what that means to each of us - just to name a few.
I cede the soapbox to the next person, but reserve to step back on it later!
And he has since apologized to his teammates for throwing them under a bus. I feel bad for him. He was put in a tough spot
mark
Tougher than serving his country during multiple tours? Get a grip, marc.
I didn't say that. You just did. I saw his presser and I'm a huge fan of his. Much respect. He was put a tough spot. The Steelers over thought this trying to take the high road. That's the shame of it. They will be back on the field for next weeks anthem. Thank goodness
mark
How was he put in a tough spot? The man was willing to take a bullet for his country. He is worried about hurting the feelings of a bunch of roided brats?
I guess because he felt guilt afterwards and wished he would have stayed with his team mates. It should have never came to that. It was a dumb plan and hence tough spot. He shouldn't have had to choose
mark
Any plan devised by mike tomlin is bound to be a disaster. Maybe the dumbest coach in the NFL ( except about 20 others )
And he has since apologized to his teammates for throwing them under a bus. I feel bad for him. He was put in a tough spot
mark
Tougher than serving his country during multiple tours? Get a grip, marc.
I didn't say that. You just did. I saw his presser and I'm a huge fan of his. Much respect. He was put a tough spot. The Steelers over thought this trying to take the high road. That's the shame of it. They will be back on the field for next weeks anthem. Thank goodness
mark
How was he put in a tough spot? The man was willing to take a bullet for his country. He is worried about hurting the feelings of a bunch of roided brats?
I guess because he felt guilt afterwards and wished he would have stayed with his team mates. It should have never came to that. It was a dumb plan and hence tough spot. He shouldn't have had to choose
mark
Any plan devised by mike tomlin is bound to be a disaster. Maybe the dumbest coach in the NFL ( except about 20 others )
I would take Mike Tomlin as the Rams coach righteffingnow. I've always admired his passion and fire, and the results speak for themselves. His teams win rings (eta: whoops, only one ring - thought it was multiple), are always competitive, and for the most part are always disciplined.
And he has since apologized to his teammates for throwing them under a bus. I feel bad for him. He was put in a tough spot
mark
Tougher than serving his country during multiple tours? Get a grip, marc.
I didn't say that. You just did. I saw his presser and I'm a huge fan of his. Much respect. He was put a tough spot. The Steelers over thought this trying to take the high road. That's the shame of it. They will be back on the field for next weeks anthem. Thank goodness
mark
How was he put in a tough spot? The man was willing to take a bullet for his country. He is worried about hurting the feelings of a bunch of roided brats?
I guess because he felt guilt afterwards and wished he would have stayed with his team mates. It should have never came to that. It was a dumb plan and hence tough spot. He shouldn't have had to choose
mark
Any plan devised by mike tomlin is bound to be a disaster. Maybe the dumbest coach in the NFL ( except about 20 others )
I would take Mike Tomlin as the Rams coach righteffingnow. I've always admired his passion and fire, and the results speak for themselves. His teams win rings, are always competitive, and for the most part are always disciplined.
Did you see him trip that player a few years ago? It was a pick 6 or something and Tomlin walked onto the field and tripped the player in full view of the entire world. Dumber than a sack of doorknobs.
Did you see the playoff game against the patriots ? We don't make adjustments , we do what we do . How's that working out for them
Meh - lots of coaches do really dumb stuff sometimes - that's basically Rex Ryan's entire career, and he stuck around a long damn time. I get what you're saying, though - I still haven't forgiven Mike Martz for only letting Marshall Faulk touch the ball nine times against the Patriots in 2001. Doesn't matter if the rest of his career was nothing but genius moves (it wasn't, of course) - I'll never forgive him for that Super Bowl loss.
I've always gotten the feeling that Tomlin's players would gladly run through a wall for him. I can't say that about very many coaches at any level.
@TNP777 said:
Meh - lots of coaches do really dumb stuff sometimes - that's basically Rex Ryan's entire career, and he stuck around a long damn time. I get what you're saying, though - I still haven't forgiven Mike Martz for only letting Marshall Faulk touch the ball nine times against the Patriots in 2001. Doesn't matter if the rest of his career was nothing but genius moves (it wasn't, of course) - I'll never forgive him for that Super Bowl loss.
I've always gotten the feeling that Tomlin's players would gladly run through a wall for him. I can't that about very many coaches at any level.
Replace mike martz with mike ditka and marshall faulk with walter payton , and its deja vu and thats coming from a pats fan
@LarkinCollector said:
Protesting is fine when:
b) people have a clue what you're protesting - I still have no idea what any current NFL player is attempting to accomplish by kneeling, staying in the locker room, locking arms, etc.
I mean this with all due respect: If you don't know what they're protesting, you've been intentionally avoiding finding out. Kaep said it over and over and it's been mentioned a ton of times since. They're protesting police violence against minorities and mistreatment of/racism against minorities.
As I stated, I know what Kaep was protesting. I haven't heard another player state it and if you believe that's what they were protesting this past weekend, you're naive.
Yeah, this weekend was different. I was referring to the original motivations.
While your question about women and the justice system may be a valid question, what does that have to do with this thread? It has nothing to do with why the players are protesting. We could ask questions ad nauseum about the justice system.
It was brought up earlier in the thread, hence my comment.
Walter Payton was a football deity, but don’t discount Faulk. That three year run he had with the GSoT was amazing to see. His MVP year in 2000 saw him gain 1000 yards on the ground and as a receiver.
@TNP777 said:
Walter Payton was a football deity, but don’t discount Faulk. That three year run he had with the GSoT was amazing to see. His MVP year in 2000 saw him gain 1000 yards on the ground and as a receiver.
Not discounting him , he was great. Ditka kept payton out of the endzone from spite. Martz just had a brain cramp I thought at the time. Neither one was a good coach they just got lucky those 2 years by having great teams.
While your question about women and the justice system may be a valid question, what does that have to do with this thread? It has nothing to do with why the players are protesting. We could ask questions ad nauseum about the justice system.
It was brought up earlier in the thread, hence my comment.
I admit I've been lightheaded the last couple of days but can you reference what you are referring to. Apart from DIMEMAN's comments about women serving in the military, I don't recall any talk of women and their crimes, prosecutions or sentences.
It was in response to these questions from baseball:
Or, why is that that African Americans get arrested almost four times as much as Caucasians f>or marijuana use when the statistics show that they use it at comparable rates?
Or, why is it that first time offenders get more severe sentences when they are not Caucasian?
The implication is that the "system" is racist based on those questions/stats. Yet no one ever asks the same question(s) when it comes to sexism and the "system".
@TNP777 said:
Walter Payton was a football deity, but don’t discount Faulk. That three year run he had with the GSoT was amazing to see. His MVP year in 2000 saw him gain 1000 yards on the ground and as a receiver.
Not discounting him , he was great. Ditka kept payton out of the endzone from spite. Martz just had a brain cramp I thought at the time. Neither one was a good coach they just got lucky those 2 years by having great teams.
Ah, gotcha - i didn’t get where you were coming from. Connection made, and 100% agree.
Did you see him trip that player a few years ago? It was a pick 6 or something and Tomlin walked onto the field and tripped the player in full view of the entire world. Dumber than a sack of doorknobs.
Did you see the playoff game against the patriots ? We don't make adjustments , we do what we do . How's that working out for them
He didn't trip the guy. He got in his way but never actually touched him. Completely intentional (he was watching the play on the jumbotron) and should have netted him a suspension/firing a la the Jets strength coach who actually DID trip a guy.
Apparently some of these players are starting to lose endorsements over these protests. I wonder how many of these guys will start standing now that money is involved? Just like that fraud Kap stating he will stand for the flag going forward...Only because he wants NFL money OFCOURSE! Nobody likes to remember that for some reason, and good for the sponsors exercising their rights to chose who they want representing their product.
@TNP777 - I didn't say they weren't aware of the issues, I said they weren't self-aware of their own privileged status and how that affects how others view them. And just in case it matters, I haven't watched news on television in decades. From what I used to see, and from what I hear others saying now, it all (not just Fox) appears designed to deceive and they appear to have gotten very good at it. In this age of information, I don't understand why anyone watches TV news anymore, except to confirm their own biases.
And forgive my use of "nobody"; it was a bit too general. What I mean is, there is presumably an intended audience for these protests, and the core of that intended audience is, presumably, white, fairly well off, and generally supportive of the police. That audience is also supportive of the military, loves this country and places their hands over their hearts when the national anthem is played and means it. By choosing the playing of the national anthem for their protests, the kneelers have forfeited the attention of their intended audience. Their audience doesn't care what they say they're protesting, since the instant the protest started they knew the protesters didn't respect them. If I want to convince you of something, I don't start by walking up to you and spitting in your face; you wouldn't listen to anything I had to say once I had done that. But that's exactly what the kneelers have done. Yes, there are people listening to them, but only those people who already agreed with them. The people they claim to be talking to, their intended audience, isn't listening. So these protests will change no minds and will change no policies; they will only strengthen everyone's already existing beliefs, and make an actual productive conversation harder to start.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
And he has since apologized to his teammates for throwing them under a bus. I feel bad for him. He was put in a tough spot
mark
Tougher than serving his country during multiple tours? Get a grip, marc.
I didn't say that. You just did. I saw his presser and I'm a huge fan of his. Much respect. He was put a tough spot. The Steelers over thought this trying to take the high road. That's the shame of it. They will be back on the field for next weeks anthem. Thank goodness
mark
How was he put in a tough spot? The man was willing to take a bullet for his country. He is worried about hurting the feelings of a bunch of roided brats?
I guess because he felt guilt afterwards and wished he would have stayed with his team mates. It should have never came to that. It was a dumb plan and hence tough spot. He shouldn't have had to choose
mark
You believe that an Army special ops guy would stand in the tunnel during the anthem? No way. He was trying to cover for his idiot coach and teammates.
BS. He was brought up to leave no man behind.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comments
Crap like that should get you banned!!!!
.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Dallas is 100% correct. The statistics show that police brutality is color blind.
The difference is, only the white cop killing the black guy makes the news.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
When Trump speaks people listen. Sunday night football drew their worst ratings ever.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Interesting article about Jones and the Cowboys also debunking the fallacy that Jones ever told his players anything they had to do with regard to standing or kneeling for the national anthem.
https://sports.yahoo.com/kneeling-cowboys-debunked-popular-fake-news-meme-featuring-jerry-jones-030937782.html
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
nevermind. You are a lost soul if you truly believe this
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Prove me wrong.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
http://www.dailywire.com/news/7264/5-statistics-you-need-know-about-cops-killing-aaron-bandler
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Soldiers don't kneel.
Regarding shooting statistics, there's a couple ways you can look at it:
1) If you go by police contacts, whites are shot proportionately more often.
2) If you go by population, blacks are shot more often.
Both of those can be argued as to the causes behind them.
Now, for a counterpoint to the "blacks are overarrested, oversentenced, and so on" argument - if we take this argument at face value, why does no one ever claim the police and/or criminal justice system is sexist? Men are arrested far more often than women and sentenced to far greater terms than women, for the exact same crimes.
Yep good point. When it comes to the system, whether it be criminal, or divorce court. Men are treated like rats compared to women. Funny how the left never complains or protests over those prejudices.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Baseball you will won't get an answer to your questions from the conservatives here. There is no answer that fits into their echo chamber.
For law enforcement being the most "diverse" organizations in the country they certainly have a terrible record of abusing minorities constitutional rights. That is not simply an opinion look at the Justice department investigations of law enforcement agencies some time. However we had this same discussion last year and people just don't want to read/accept things that contradict their beliefs (this applies to folks on both sides of the argument). Some people simply believe the police are good. It is based on their upbringing and their own personal experiences. No amount of articles, facts, example, etc will ever change their core belief.
Robb
The NFL and the media has said over and over that this is all about free speech? But Villanueva can't express his according to Mike Tomlin after ripping him for standing. Which shows you this was never ever about free speech, its about liberals forcing others to bow to their will.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
And he has since apologized to his teammates for throwing them under a bus. I feel bad for him. He was put in a tough spot
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
And Big Ben regrets staying inside the tunnel
Yep. Tough spot they were all put in
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
As I stated, I know what Kaep was protesting. I haven't heard another player state it and if you believe that's what they were protesting this past weekend, you're naive.
Villanueva isn't spinning it like you. I think I'll go with him
Every single time I see that picture of me standing by myself, I feel embarrassed,” Villanueva said (via the Pittsburgh Post Gazette
"Unfortunately, I threw (my teammates) under the bus, unintentionally," Villanueva said.
"I made coach (Mike) Tomlin look bad, and that is my fault and my fault only," he said. "I made my teammates look bad, and that is my fault and my fault only.”
Both Villanueva and Roethlisberger regretted the way the entire situation played out. Roethlisberger said the team will be on the field for the anthem before their next game Sunday in Baltimore.
"We as a team tried to figure it out, obviously we butchered it. … I'm not gonna pretend I have some kind of righteous voice," Villanueva said.
Full presset below
http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-nfl-week-3-live-updates-alejandro-villanueva-every-single-1506378650-htmlstory.html?ref=yfp
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The president has now tweeted about the NFL 21 different times in the last three days. And as is very often the case with Trump’s tweets, clarification and correction is necessary.
Ratings for this week’s games were not “way down”; in fact, every measure indicates that ratings for Week 3 would be up, particularly once the highly popular Cowboys’ appearance on Monday Night Football is factored in. (We’ll leave it to you to decide whether there is some measurable slice of the American public tuning in for exactly 90 seconds to watch the anthem, then tuning out in disgust.)
Sunday Nights game was ugly
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Tougher than serving his country during multiple tours? Get a grip, marc.
I didn't say that. You just did. I saw his presser and I'm a huge fan of his. Much respect. He was put a tough spot. The Steelers over thought this trying to take the high road. That's the shame of it. They will be back on the field for next weeks anthem. Thank goodness
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
“This idea that black people should be grateful is some sneaky-ass racism,” Noah said. “When a white billionaire spends a year screaming that America is a disaster, he’s in touch with the country. But when a black man kneels quietly, he should be grateful for the successes that America has allowed him to have? How is that ungrateful? I don’t understand.”
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You asked the question, so I assume you have the statistics to back it up. Please share what the average sentence is for a white collar criminal who was convicted of stealing "millions upon millions" of dollars. Madoff got 150 years; the father of the man who married my cousin swindled a whole lot less but he got about 10 years in federal prison. So for the two examples I know off the top of my head the average is 80 years, but you've apparently got stats that show otherwise. Also, please explain what this has to do with the protests; are you saying blacks are incapable of holding white collar jobs? I hope not.
Ditto - please share the average sentence for pedophiles and what this has to do with the protests.
Huh? What does this have to do with the protests?
Huh? What does this have to do with the protests?
Amen, brother, this should never be allowed. I have no idea why you mentioned it here, though, because it is a tactic that is used all the time against police after they have been acquitted in state courts.
Because criminal justice is a state, not federal, matter. But I don't know why you're asking in the context of this thread.
The white Republican governor of Maryland recently proposed a law requiring mandatory minimum sentences for gun possession. The black community rose up to denounce him and demand that judges retain the discretion to view each defendant on a case by case basis. If you want to remove the possibility of racial bias from judges, you have to remove all of their discretion, and mandatory prison sentences will be attached to pretty much every conviction. I'm OK with that - it's an approach favored by most conservatives - but I'm surprised you support it, too.
Yes, a national police force is pretty much a universal sign that you've entered a left-wing dictatorship of some kind, but free countries all do their best to avoid them.
I am so confused. You asked a bunch of questions here, but I don't understand how any of them pertain to the protests. Are you saying the issues in your questions are what the kneelers want addressed, or are you just showing off your straw man collection?
What was your point again?
Maybe if someone would answer this question it would lift the fog: I, average Joe American, see some really rich people kneeling during the national anthem. What is it that these really rich people want me to DO now that I've seen them kneeling? Because either there is an answer or this is a farce.
And as for my earlier statement which Tabe fleshed out for me, I think it should go without saying but maybe it doesn't that police do not shoot people among the general population with magic bullets that strike people randomly in their homes, they only shoot people that they come into contact with, so that's the only statistic that has any meaning. Given the people that it is possible for them to shoot, police are more likely to shoot a white person than a black person. Given the black people that are shot by policemen, they are more likely to have been shot by a black policeman than by a white policeman. I repeat these because they are awfully important facts to know when pondering what changes, if any, are needed to our way of policing.
This made me laugh. "White billionaire" vs. "black man". I guess "white billionaire" vs. "black millionaire" didn't sound self-righteous enough. And yeah, millionaires regardless of the color of their skin should be grateful for the successes that America has allowed them to have. That ought to be, and used to be, self-evident to everyone, and still is self-evident to almost everyone. It's the failure to grasp that point that makes the kneelers look so foolish.
I think it's equally foolish to pretend to know the intent of each of the kneelers.
What makes one think they aren't grateful for the success they have? Because they are kneeling? That leap I can't make.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
How was he put in a tough spot? The man was willing to take a bullet for his country. He is worried about hurting the feelings of a bunch of roided brats?
For those that think these athletes are only doing this as some sort of "look at me" thing, or that "kneeler zero (Colin Kaepernick) is guilty of the same, or that this whole racism thing is overblown...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/09/26/fire-chief-embarrassed-for-calling-steelers-coach-mike-tomlin-the-n-word-over-anthem-protest/?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.a06386ad478c
Racism is real. It's not a small problem. It exists in every demographic, every race, every religion - it exists in small or large part in ALL of us. Is each of us man enough to admit it and confront it, or conversely admit it and embrace it?
dallasactuary, to address your comments on Trevor Noah's (not Joaquim - thanks, Mark!) quote above: while I see the point you're making, I think that lost in all of this controversy is that these athletes, starting with Kaepernick, are using their unique voices to bring to light an issue that plagues our society. It gives voice to the voiceless - in other words, an individual, ordinary (ordinary as in not having a huge pubic platform) black citizen kneeling during the Anthem would not bring the necessary attention to this huge issue of race in the same way a professional athlete can. The failure to grasp that point likewise makes those who think this is ONLY about disrespecting the Flag/Anthem/military/country look foolish.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
I guess because he felt guilt afterwards and wished he would have stayed with his team mates. It should have never came to that. It was a dumb plan and hence tough spot. He shouldn't have had to choose
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@TNP777---------Trevor Noah
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Whoops! That's pretty embarrassing!
See, kneejerk assumption theory proved - should have checked sources first. Thanks for setting me straight.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Could well be, but then I was just laughing at the way Noah constructed his comparison. It's unavoidable, really. When a liberal makes a political argument, it contains a straw man. In Noah's case, it was the word "man" where "millionaire" was the correct word given how he set up the comparison.
I also think it's apparent at this point that the great majority of those kneeling/staying in the locker room/whatever couldn't care less about the issues, if any, that are motivating their more self-righteous teammates. They're just feeling coerced into it to keep peace in the locker room.
OK, but first lets agree that we can all laugh at what Noah said. It was a transparent straw man.
With regard to the rest, sure, that they are famous gives them a wider audience. But they all (the one's I've seen interviewed) seem to lack the self-awareness that they are privileged 1%er millionaires. When CK wears socks depicting cops as pigs, he's not speaking for others he's speaking for himself. And he looks like a hypocritical idiot. And just so I'm sure we're on the same page, when you say that what they are doing is not ONLY about disrespecting the Flag/Anthem/military/country, I agree. But it is, in part, about disrespecting the Flag/Anthem/military/country. That they have chosen disrespect for the country as the platform from which to launch their protest renders the rest of what they intended to do moot. When you start from that point, nobody listens. Nobody is listening. Nobody cares. Whatever they intended to accomplish, they have already failed although they no doubt don't realize that yet. The NFL will be the only real loser in all of this, and Trump will be among the biggest winners. Good job, guys, way to go.
And when you say "an issue that plagues our society", to what issue are you referring? That's a rhetorical question, and I ask it just to point out that if you did ask that question of 100 people (on both sides) you'd get 100 different answers. It is difficult to imagine a group of people less competent to be the "voice for the voiceless" than CK and the others who were kneeling before kneeling became more or less mandatory. Being millionaires started them off in a very deep hole, and that hole just keeps getting deeper every week. At some point they'll stop digging and we can assess the damage they've done to the league and to the country.
It did not occur to me that your intention was to babble incoherently, and at such great length, on purpose. I thought you were trying to say something that might be of interest to somebody, anybody, else. I will not make that mistake again, and my apologies.
You believe that an Army special ops guy would stand in the tunnel during the anthem? No way. He was trying to cover for his idiot coach and teammates.
Hmm... then I guess the comments he made afterward make him a liar. That’s not a good look for an Army special ops guy. (note: I’m not actually calling him that - just rebutting another ridiculous statement by the Glicker)
Or maybe, just maybe, he actually meant what he said afterwards - that he didn’t mean to be so far outside the tunnel, wanted to support his teammates, and merely wanted to see the Flag during the Anthem.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Seems to me (pay attention - I'm speaking only for myself) that it's pretty arrogant to suggest that the great majority of these athletes couldn't care less about the issues. You might believe that or want to believe that - it fits your personal narrative. I'm sure you're right about many of the players, though. It's possible that some don't care, or don't want to be bothered, or outright disagree but are going along with what the majority of the team decides (for unity's sake).
I'm not sure what interviews you've watched, but to a man, the athletes I've seen interviewed know exactly what and why they're protesting. Are the interviews you've seen shown anywhere other than FOXNews? (yes, I know I'm making an assumption about where you watch your news - apologies if I'm wrong on that)
I agree with you regarding the cop/pig socks Kaepernick was wearing. It's more than obvious that I agree with his message and his right to kneel, but those socks certainly did not help help him in the least. They are offensive, and I wish he hadn't chosen to wear them. However, if you're focusing solely on the socks and discounting everything that's come out of his mouth, then (in my opinion) you're being willfully ignorant about his message and how he chose to address it.
Regarding your second bolded statement, nobody is listening, nobody cares: again, if you actually believe this, you (again, in my opinion) are being willfully ignorant, along with blind and deaf. I also want to point out that it drives me crazy when anyone, and I've done it, too, makes a statement about "nobody" or "everyone" and purports to be speaking on "everyone's" behalf. That this thread (and others, such as "Is Kaepernick a jerk?") are proof positive that people do care. That this is a national topic, with passionate response from both sides, is proof positive that not only do people care, but that it can't and shouldn't be a foregone conclusion that the NFL will lose and the President will win. What's winning? People being forced to pay false homage to a piece of cloth and a song? Is that what America should be - forced and false pride in symbols? Or should America continue to stand on the very freedoms promised in our Bill of Rights and the Constitution? That's the kind of America that I'm proud of. And for the record, I take great pride in our Flag and Anthem. I do stop talking and do place my hand over my heart when the Anthem is played in public. I do not do so at home, though. Not sure if that's a bad or good thing - I've never given it much thought to be honest.
Personally, I think these athletes have already "won". We are talking, quietly and respectfully in many cases and forcefully and angrily in others, about very difficult and uncomfortable topics: race, equality, discrimination, patriotism and what that means to each of us - just to name a few.
I cede the soapbox to the next person, but reserve to step back on it later!
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Any plan devised by mike tomlin is bound to be a disaster. Maybe the dumbest coach in the NFL ( except about 20 others
)
I would take Mike Tomlin as the Rams coach righteffingnow. I've always admired his passion and fire, and the results speak for themselves. His teams win rings (eta: whoops, only one ring - thought it was multiple), are always competitive, and for the most part are always disciplined.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Did you see him trip that player a few years ago? It was a pick 6 or something and Tomlin walked onto the field and tripped the player in full view of the entire world. Dumber than a sack of doorknobs.
Did you see the playoff game against the patriots ? We don't make adjustments , we do what we do . How's that working out for them
Meh - lots of coaches do really dumb stuff sometimes - that's basically Rex Ryan's entire career, and he stuck around a long damn time. I get what you're saying, though - I still haven't forgiven Mike Martz for only letting Marshall Faulk touch the ball nine times against the Patriots in 2001. Doesn't matter if the rest of his career was nothing but genius moves (it wasn't, of course) - I'll never forgive him for that Super Bowl loss.
I've always gotten the feeling that Tomlin's players would gladly run through a wall for him. I can't say that about very many coaches at any level.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Replace mike martz with mike ditka and marshall faulk with walter payton , and its deja vu and thats coming from a pats fan
Yeah, this weekend was different. I was referring to the original motivations.
It was brought up earlier in the thread, hence my comment.
Walter Payton was a football deity, but don’t discount Faulk. That three year run he had with the GSoT was amazing to see. His MVP year in 2000 saw him gain 1000 yards on the ground and as a receiver.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
Not discounting him , he was great. Ditka kept payton out of the endzone from spite. Martz just had a brain cramp I thought at the time. Neither one was a good coach they just got lucky those 2 years by having great teams.
It was in response to these questions from baseball:
The implication is that the "system" is racist based on those questions/stats. Yet no one ever asks the same question(s) when it comes to sexism and the "system".
Ah, gotcha - i didn’t get where you were coming from. Connection made, and 100% agree.
Dodgers collection scans | Brett Butler registry | 1978 Dodgers - straight 9s, homie
He didn't trip the guy. He got in his way but never actually touched him. Completely intentional (he was watching the play on the jumbotron) and should have netted him a suspension/firing a la the Jets strength coach who actually DID trip a guy.
Apparently some of these players are starting to lose endorsements over these protests. I wonder how many of these guys will start standing now that money is involved? Just like that fraud Kap stating he will stand for the flag going forward...Only because he wants NFL money OFCOURSE! Nobody likes to remember that for some reason, and good for the sponsors exercising their rights to chose who they want representing their product.
@TNP777 - I didn't say they weren't aware of the issues, I said they weren't self-aware of their own privileged status and how that affects how others view them. And just in case it matters, I haven't watched news on television in decades. From what I used to see, and from what I hear others saying now, it all (not just Fox) appears designed to deceive and they appear to have gotten very good at it. In this age of information, I don't understand why anyone watches TV news anymore, except to confirm their own biases.
And forgive my use of "nobody"; it was a bit too general. What I mean is, there is presumably an intended audience for these protests, and the core of that intended audience is, presumably, white, fairly well off, and generally supportive of the police. That audience is also supportive of the military, loves this country and places their hands over their hearts when the national anthem is played and means it. By choosing the playing of the national anthem for their protests, the kneelers have forfeited the attention of their intended audience. Their audience doesn't care what they say they're protesting, since the instant the protest started they knew the protesters didn't respect them. If I want to convince you of something, I don't start by walking up to you and spitting in your face; you wouldn't listen to anything I had to say once I had done that. But that's exactly what the kneelers have done. Yes, there are people listening to them, but only those people who already agreed with them. The people they claim to be talking to, their intended audience, isn't listening. So these protests will change no minds and will change no policies; they will only strengthen everyone's already existing beliefs, and make an actual productive conversation harder to start.
BS. He was brought up to leave no man behind.
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......