Unintended consequences and is it time for CAC to...
Zoins
Posts: 34,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
When CAC came on the scene, it was unknown what an effect it would have and there needed to be a limited downside to submit coins, namely coins rated as "C" coins did not appear in the CAC cert verification.
Now that CAC has become successful, not having a sticker seems to have a coin priced as a "C" coin whether it was reviewed by CAC or not. In this case, there may be some unintended consequences where all the coins that CAC has not seen may be treated as "C" coins.
To rectify this, is it time for CAC to show "C" coins in their cert verification database to not penalize unseen coins? This way, coins could still be reviewed as "A/B" and "C" coins but the vast numbers of coins that CAC did not review would not be treated as "C" coins.
Unintended consequences and is it time for CAC to...
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
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Not another CAC thread...
I think you assume too much by saying "all non CAC coins are treated as C".
At the higher levels? Maybe. In the $500 and lower...coins still trade based on their merit. (In my mind...feel free to differ).
Yes, but the goal here is to kill all the other CAC threads.
If CAC posted "C" coins publicly then people that did not want to get their coins stickered could avoid having their coins decrease in value and could stop complaining about CAC
I just want people to learn to grade for themselves and cut the plastic and foil umbilical cord. I don't deny CAC and TPGS can be valuable tools but too much of anything can be a bad thing. Blind reliance on plastic and stickers has led to almost cult like behavior/obsession.
Somewhere along the way people forgot that nice coins sold for a premium long before CAC came along and tagged some of them.
@Justacommeman
This one's for you.
I'm sorry, but I couldn't resist.
This can help end all the CAC threads by addressing what seems to be the underlying issue.
It can't happen. There is too much built in liability on CAC's end at this time.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
If they just did it for new submissions under a new policy there would be no additional liability, just their opinion. This may be okay since coins get regraded all the time.
If they just did it for new submissions then how does that change the status of the tens-of-thousands of coins already rejected? Regardless, if they instituted that as their new policy then they would see a sizable portion of their business evaporate.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
The issue right now is that no one knows what has been rejected. There are many more unseen coins treated as "C" coins now that shouldn't be. What about those coins?
At this point, the CAC premium has been established so I'm not sure how much it would decrease their business, especially since there is a sticker premium and stickering isn't how they make their money.
Bravo!!
How would they know you were the owner of the coin unless you submit it to them?
Ugh
Latin American Collection
So ever coin that JA does not like shall now wear "the wear the mark of Cain."
What makes you think One man **should have that much power over the coin market? Is he **"the god of American numismatics? Should we all pay in to erect a statue of him at the ANA and ANS headquarters so that all future generations of collectors may bask in the enlightenment of his highly successful business venture?
The absurdity of this satire is only slightly beyond the absurdity of your assumption that any certified coin without a CAC sticker is over graded and unacceptable. Contrary to what has become popular belief among some of you, JA is not perfect and omnipresent. He is a man. He has not seen every coin to grade it, and he does not get it right every time if he is actually grading all of the coins submitted to CAC.
Here's a dirty little secret. JA does not grade ever coin for CAC. He hires minions to do that, and some of those minions have been the same dealers you have seen at the shows.
Zoins, I put a "disagree" on you question because there is no way to answer it unless you are a CAC sycophant. It is a loaded question which offers no answer to those who disagree with your premise.
For the record, JA could never do what you want because his company would face multiple lawsuits. Furthermore he stated up front that he would never publish a list of coins that failed to win his approval.
I think the truth that Zoins underscores is real, many times the CAC question about a nice, unstickered coin is asked. it is absurd to my way of thinking but follows the mindset of collectors in the past about nice, raw coins. evidently there is a lack of self-confidence in many buyers, then and now.
what is the old latin, caveat emptor?? I think CAC sort of builds on that.
Collectors should just learn how to grade and forget about the stickers. If the coin doesn't meet your standards don't buy it.
The TPG's probably would like the idea of a scarlet "C." That way, more coins would get resubmitted to them to remove the C-stigma of that previous holder/cert number.
If you are that unsure about your grading skills you should only buy CAC approved coins and not try to "make them" on your own. You could also take the ANA summer grading course, and you could join a local club in hopes of meeting some advanced collectors who know the ropes. That is one of the functions of the educational programs that I give at my local club.
Don't forget you can also change your name.
I voted yes, only because I think that acknowledging a 'C' coin would not be much different than a TPG marking the slab as 'Genuine' or 'Cleaned'....That is already reality. And, if a TPG body bags a coin, just as a CAC 'no sticker' now... no one knows..... Personally, I believe the collecting community has gone overboard on grades and stickers, and lost sight of coins as collector items. The focus seems to be on profit mostly, and 'mine is better than yours' secondarily. Cheers, RickO
Dear PCGS:
If you're reading this, you should start a new CAC tier whereby a failed coin is dropped to the plus grade below (e.g. 65 to 64+) so it stickers. You can make the submitter sign a waiver of a payout and charge them just as much. You would make millions of dollars. Low end (but accurately graded coins) would become saleable again.
@DonWillis @homerunhall
Why? A number of them end up stickered later.
Very true but people are forgetting that recently the definition of nice has slowly crept to include attributes that are not directly attributable to the Coin it's self but to the holder, stickers, dealer, etc.
Just being a nice coin isn't always good enough now and without flair many coins don't get the benefit of the doubt.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
But no I don't think cac should publish a list of which coins aren't good enough (for them). It would be like publishing a list of the remaining virgins in college in the school square.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Most coins under $500 in value have not been sent to them, so if this became a universal badge of mediocrity, of not cutting the mustard, it would have a very deleterious effect. Proper imaging should be enough for grade relative judgments.
"It became necessary to destroy the town in order to save it"
-Unknown US army major
Bill, I don't think one needs to be a "CAC sycophant" to answer the question. One choice is about changing the status quo while another is about keeping it.
I also disagreed with this post because I don't think JA would face lawsuits. To me, saying he would face lawsuits by issuing a "C" opinion is like saying TPGs would face lawsuits if they graded a coin without a plus ("+"). A "C" grade is a passing grade and still agrees with the TPG. A "C" grade does not indicate a coin is over graded. Doesn't it sound absurd for TPGs to face lawsuits for coins that didn't get a plus?
I collect only PCGS/CAC. I voted "no" on this poll. Maintaining a publicly accessible list of "C" coins would discourage submissions. I don't view unstickered coins as ones that failed to sticker. Leave the uncertainty in place to encourage collectors to think for themselves. Certain specialist dealers do well assessing unstickered coins knowing they have collectors ready to purchase PCGS/CAC coins.
At certain auction sites I expect that coins valued at more than $2,000 have been to CAC. Coins of that sort that have no sticker are ones where I assume they failed to sticker and as a consequence were consigned.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
CAC is working as planned. Your coin is not worth considering if it is not stickered, resulting in more submissions. Apparently, only professionals are able to accurately grade these days.
People will go to great lengths to extract money from your wallet, even to the detriment of the hobby.
Just my eversohumble opinion.
Cheers
Bob
There is a HUGE difference between marking a coin as "Genuine" or "Cleaned." First, “Genuine" or "Cleaned" means that the coin is damaged or improperly cleaned, which is pretty much a permeant situation, unless the negative comment was not merited in the first place. A “C coin” could become a “B coin” or even an “A coin” if it were to be placed in a holder with a lower grade on it.
Second, who says that CAC got it right? The assumption here is that the CAC opinion is perfect, and no one can challenge it, which is total BS. I know that some you people would like to have a coin grader dictator, because you think that he is perfect. For the rest of us, there are some educated, talented people who might have a different opinion.
The second half of you post rings true. It would be great if people would start to enjoy the hobby and stop building grading icons with opinions that not as cut and dried as some people think they are.
Right now, the CAC dictator advocates and the high auction house buyers’ fees are ruining the hobby for me and telling me that getting out might be a good idea financially, even if my heart is not in it sell. If a lot of collectors come to that same conclusion, your little stickers won’t amount to anything because there will be a much smaller market to support them.
If you CAC people could just leave other people alone and live your own little CAC world, it would be great. But you can’t do that. You have to run your mouths all the time about how coins without stickers suck. Any coin that didn’t make the CAC muster should be marked so that you will know you can’t make them into something better. If you want to play the CAC grading grade, learn to grade for yourself or stick to buying the CAC product. That’s what dealers, who don’t play the crack-out game, have done for years.
If a coin goes to CAC and does not earn a sticker it is effectively body-bagged . Also I'm sure they have noted the cert number of every coin they looked at , whether the rejects remain in the holder with that number or not is another matter.
It would not be good business for CAC to let collectors know which coins they have rejected. Companies like CAC rely on "repeat business".
None the less I do worry that coins I might sell at auction will be rejected by some bidders just because I've never submitted a thing to CAC (unbeknownst to them). And that's not right.
Dear PCGS:
If you're reading this, you should start a new CAC tier whereby a failed coin is dropped to the plus grade below (e.g. 65 to 64+) so it stickers. You can make the submitter sign a waiver of a payout and charge them just as much. You would make millions of dollars. Low end (but accurately graded coins) would become saleable again.
this is ridiculous but lends credence to what BillJones states so clearly about one individual holding so much sway on the Hobby.
Coin grading has evolved from an assessment of a coin's condition of preservation to a shorthand opinion of its value regardless of its actual condition. That's one reason rare and unusual coins graded as low as XF at one time are now considered to be MS. Furthermore. Mint State no longer indicates a coin is "free from friction wear."
Most of us know how to grade a coin. Many of you know what to price a coin that you grade. I don't without looking it up in some way. So, I'm reading this thread as an uninformed person. I should be very grateful if you all correct any of my misconceptions as I don't know much about CAC except what I think I know by reading the many CAC threads previously posted on CU.
I agree on a few things posted above. We are not going to change the way CAC does anything. That company has become entrenched into the marketplace just as the fact that coins that were formerly graded AU are now MS. I also enjoy reading about CAC and the coins they have graded. I am not too up-to-date on their ABC's
they don't like for some reason. If my last sentence is correct, that is one flaw in the service CAC provides and that flaw is probably connected to eye appeal and value. Yes? No?
I think CAC stickers coins in the middle (B) and top (A) of the grade on the slab. I don't think they sticker (C) coins or any coins (true A or
Here goes nothing
Grading is a personal thing. Some folks are better than others. The grade only matters to the buyer and seller. Grading cannot be a personal thing to the folks who work at a TPGS or CAC as they try to project a company standard with their opinion.
CAC was a great idea. Decades ago (years before Rick's eagle-eye and PCGS), My father printed self-destruct stickers for a numismatist who was going to sticker certificates for coins in the Mint State range that were actually "Free from any trace of wear" - the prevailing standards for Uncirculated at the time. That numismatist was hired by a TPGS and never put his plan into action.
CAC provides a service similar to the TPGS. Love or hate JA (who possibly only sees most of the coins and all of the "big" ones) it is apparent by the interest in his company that many need the CAC "crutch." Just as many need the TPGS "crutch" that came before.
Furthermore, it cannot be argued that the TPGS have helped more dealers (especially) and collectors than they have hurt.
Apparently, CAC buys the coins it has stickered. If true, I don't know how this works or where the buy prices come from. Is it like the old teletype system where bids/asks were posted. Anyway, who wouldn't want a PCGS coin with a "bean?" The coin should be easier to sell! That seems to be the case and the source of the controversy. If CAC were to post the coins it had seen, in a few years, their volume of $$$ would decrease. Who would be stupid enough to do that?
Just because a slab does not have a sticker, does not indicate it is incorrectly graded. Knowledge is power. TPGS, CAC sticker, whatever, those who have a knowledge of the coin market will do fine. The rest of you can whine. LOL!
What's the over/under for post count for this latest ja thread. I'll say 100.
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Hold your disagree tags and I will mine, Bill.
As the Dimeman thread shows....coins are not just stored in the vault until they become party favors at our wakes. Out collections are actively bought and sold and often must be liquidated under emergency situations.
CAC by it's presence in the market has created a de facto scarlet letter on the coins that have not received their coveted sticker. CAC could clear that up pretty quickly by open sourcing their database of submitted but un stickered coins. Liability debate is hogwash.
Wonder what the record for resubmission of a given coin is?
I'll guess 99 as the Commem guy is boycotting.
The only one that runs their mouth off all the time on the subject is you. It's like a knee jerk reaction - when I see a CAC thread I know that Mr Bill will be denigrating JA as unworthy of being a god and claiming there are CAC drones who do nothing but promote the company.
Quite the opposite in reality. If he wasn't so angry at the world he'd see it
Your last line was wrong, TDN. Bill has been passionate about the hobby for longer than almost anyone on the forum. Many of his points are sound.
Well the lawsuit thing is not hard to fix. Put it in the submitter's contract like PCGS does. So if the coin does not sticker and CAC publishes a certified coin that did not sticker they are not liable...Front load the language in the contract. heck maybe its already there I do not know.
I think there's a bit of a miscommunication here.
The point of this question is to allow people to live outside the CAC world, if they choose. Right now, this is hard to achieve because coins that haven't been viewed are treated the same as coins that didn't sticker. I'm not sure how many people actually say coins without stickers "suck", but if this is actually the case, wouldn't it be more correct to say that "C" coins are not solid for the grade vs. all coins without a sticker are - including ones never reviewed? By marking ones that have been considered, the ones that did not get viewed, could be viewed as "outside the CAC world", more similar to say the EAC world.
Yep.
I wonder how @Justacommeman feels about it?
I wanted to wait until he came back but I wasn't sure if I could handle six months of "CAC sucks" threads. By trying to address the underlying issues, I'm hoping to get to the root causes and head off more of these at the pass so to speak.
If this is the case, should every coin that doesn't get a TPG plus "+" also be effectively body-bagged? If not, what is the difference?
Stereotyping folks does a disservice to them as well as the positions that you are attempting to explain in the discussion. I support CAC in the marketplace and would be overjoyed to NEVER EVER see another CAC thread on the forum again. EVER.
Just another way that slabbing is destroying collecting.
Buy the coin, not the slab. Not all raw coins are problem coins. Not all slabbed coins are problem free.
Not all CAC'd coins are premium coins. Not all premium coins are CAC'd.
If you cannot learn how to look at coins yourself, you have no business criticizing other people's grading.