Those two companies have to decide if a coin is genuine, if it has been altered, if it has been processed beyond what is “market acceptable,” and then they grade it. All of these functions involve far more effort and expertise than just saying “yes” or “no.”
What makes you think that CAC doesn't do all that?
@tradedollarnut said: Those two companies have to decide if a coin is genuine, if it has been altered, if it has been processed beyond what is “market acceptable,” and then they grade it. All of these functions involve far more effort and expertise than just saying “yes” or “no.”
What makes you think that CAC doesn't do all that?
I can't answer you any more because the monitors have told me to be quiet. The field is yours. You can say whatever you want, and I will not and can not respond. I took the chance and expressed my opinion above, and that is the end of it.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@tradedollarnut said:
Yes, they stickered. And relying on Jay Brahin for gold is just gonna cost you more in the long run and be less effective
Bottom line though is that you know you need a crutch in the area that you aren't an expert - and you're too proud to spend the $30 on CAC? You'd turn to an amateur over JA?
@tradedollarnut said: Those two companies have to decide if a coin is genuine, if it has been altered, if it has been processed beyond what is “market acceptable,” and then they grade it. All of these functions involve far more effort and expertise than just saying “yes” or “no.”
What makes you think that CAC doesn't do all that?
@tradedollarnut said:
Yes, they stickered. And relying on Jay Brahin for gold is just gonna cost you more in the long run and be less effective
Bottom line though is that you know you need a crutch in the area that you aren't an expert - and you're too proud to spend the $30 on CAC? You'd turn to an amateur over JA?
@tradedollarnut said: Those two companies have to decide if a coin is genuine, if it has been altered, if it has been processed beyond what is “market acceptable,” and then they grade it. All of these functions involve far more effort and expertise than just saying “yes” or “no.”
What makes you think that CAC doesn't do all that?
I can't answer you any more because the monitors have told me to be quiet. The field is yours. You can say whatever you want, and I will not and can not respond. I took the chance and expressed my opinion above, and that is the end of it.
I got a moderator warning as well last night. Best that I bow out of the CAC discussions.
@tradedollarnut said: Those two companies have to decide if a coin is genuine, if it has been altered, if it has been processed beyond what is “market acceptable,” and then they grade it. All of these functions involve far more effort and expertise than just saying “yes” or “no.”
What makes you think that CAC doesn't do all that?
I can't answer you any more because the monitors have told me to be quiet. The field is yours. You can say whatever you want, and I will not and can not respond. I took the chance and expressed my opinion above, and that is the end of it.
Seems someone got what they wanted. No surprise.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
@Coinstartled said: "Not a win for the seller whose coin has not seen daylight for a decade and a half and wants to sell."
IMO, this comment has no bearing on the issue. His coin must stand on its own when it comes time to sell. he also has the option to get it slabbed or try for a "bean."
@Analyst You sure have a way with words and clarity! I really enjoy your comments.
@BryceM said:
Somewhere along the way people forgot that nice coins sold for a premium long before CAC came along and tagged some of them.
Yes, but I think things have changed since CAC began. Now most (not all) collectors view coins without stickers as less of a coin. Which is totally wrong in my opinion.
@tradedollarnut said: Those two companies have to decide if a coin is genuine, if it has been altered, if it has been processed beyond what is “market acceptable,” and then they grade it. All of these functions involve far more effort and expertise than just saying “yes” or “no.”
What makes you think that CAC doesn't do all that?
I can't answer you any more because the monitors have told me to be quiet. The field is yours. You can say whatever you want, and I will not and can not respond. I took the chance and expressed my opinion above, and that is the end of it.
@tradedollarnut said: Those two companies have to decide if a coin is genuine, if it has been altered, if it has been processed beyond what is “market acceptable,” and then they grade it. All of these functions involve far more effort and expertise than just saying “yes” or “no.”
What makes you think that CAC doesn't do all that?
I can't answer you any more because the monitors have told me to be quiet. The field is yours. You can say whatever you want, and I will not and can not respond. I took the chance and expressed my opinion above, and that is the end of it.
Seems someone got what they wanted. No surprise.
Shame that open discussion as well as so many other things in this great country are "not acceptable " any longer.
Sign of the times...... for now at least
I have spoken to several posters on both sides of this issue and told them to follow forum rules. That's it. If you can state your position without violating forum rules - and I'd remind everyone to look at those again right now - then your post will stay. We won't delete it or ask you to edit it. But the rules concerning attacking or insulting other people, and the rule concerning bashing or promoting other grading companies - violations of those rules have been occurring in this thread.
Beware of European gold hoards that continue to surface.
I've mentioned that here several times.
No sweat. Any coin I get from here on out will be gold with a substantial part of the price being intrinsic value.
I do not TRUST this market.
Not one little bit.
Yes, it's time for CAC verification to show "C" coins to not penalize coins they haven't seen
Been following this discussion closely. Please note, I don't have a dog in this fight since I don't know enough about it. But this may actually be of value so...
You guys can't see things through the eyes of a total newb who wasn't aware of rare U.S. coins 90 days ago, but has immersed himself fully. There is some discussion here as to whether non-CAC coins will or should stand on their own and command the same value as CAC coins of identical grade.
I've been tracking auction results and studying auction result archives. I am now speaking of coins priced between $200 -
$500. There is absolutely no doubt that a CAC sticker increases the value of a coin as compared with an identical one that's not stickered. Anyone who doubts this hasn't looked in depth at auction results over the past 36 months on sub-$500 coins.
In addition, a sticker can raise price above that of a better coin of same type and grade that's slabbed and unstickered. There is no doubt of this whatsoever. Maybe the buyers aren't sophisticated, but they're paying.
There is absolutely no doubt that a CAC sticker increases the value of a coin as compared with an identical one >that's not stickered. Anyone who doubts this hasn't looked in depth at auction results over the past 36 months on >sub-$500 coins.
In addition, a sticker can raise price above that of a better coin of same type and grade that's slabbed and unstickered. There is no doubt of this whatsoever. Maybe the buyers aren't sophisticated, but they're paying.
But it's not the coin that commands the premium. It's the hype and/or inability to make one's own judgment about a coin.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I would like to make a comment on the part I have bolded in the quote below....
1) I actually agree with it. The CAC sticker (even green) does seem to allow for higher asking prices, and higher prices paid in many instances, to even these lower (price) level coins.
2) Sometimes the sellers put too much value in the stickers.
I have a real world example of this.....there is a type coin I have been watching for and wanting. Many of this type are cleaned and straight graded in holders. I don't like that. I want something more original and have been prepared to pay up for that.
I found one, on ebay, that was PCGS, original looking, in AU (I like that grade/pricepoint for this issue), AND it was CAC'ed (green).
I "found" it ~2-3 months ago. It was priced ~20% above PCGS guide. It was priced ABOVE what other, similarly graded, ones went for. It was priced ~150% of what it was last sold for (that PCGS lookup could find) from last 2016.
So, barely 6 months had passed when I found it and it was priced at 150% of it's last sale. Knowing that ebay fees will hit someone, I made an offer to the seller that still would have given them 25-30%+ profit, but save me some money as well. They declined. We both had pleasant exchanges with each other the entire time...neither of us got testy at all...it was professional and I commend them.
We did not do a deal.
I still wanted this type coin, however, and kept it in my watch list. In case it sold (and I would be sad) or in case he dropped the price. He never dropped the price.
I just purchased a NON-CAC version of this type coin outside of ebay. It is PCGS. It is the same grade. I paid ~ PCGS guide value, because there were 2 of us bidders wanting it for the last couple hundred $$$. It is a coin under $1000, so it is certainly not in the rarified air that some play in.
So, while the sticker can, and does, add value/price to a coin, sometimes sellers get carried away because of that. In this case, the above seller still has the coin available, and that inventory hasn't moved. Since it has been available, it looks more to me like it is a dealer/flipper more than a collector just selling off some coins. So, from the business side, a decision was made on the price, but money is just sitting there stagnant. Not sure I would go the same route if it were me.
@Tradernik said:
Been following this discussion closely. Please note, I don't have a dog in this fight since I don't know enough about it. But this may actually be of value so...
You guys can't see things through the eyes of a total newb who wasn't aware of rare U.S. coins 90 days ago, but has immersed himself fully. There is some discussion here as to whether non-CAC coins will or should stand on their own and command the same value as CAC coins of identical grade.
****> I've been tracking auction results and studying auction result archives. I am now speaking of coins priced between $200 -
$500. There is absolutely no doubt that a CAC sticker increases the value of a coin as compared with an identical one that's not stickered. Anyone who doubts this hasn't looked in depth at auction results over the past 36 months on sub-$500 coins.
In addition, a sticker can raise price above that of a better coin of same type and grade that's slabbed and unstickered. There is no doubt of this whatsoever. Maybe the buyers aren't sophisticated, but they're paying.**
@BryceM said:
Somewhere along the way people forgot that nice coins sold for a premium long before CAC came along and tagged some of them.
Yes, but I think things have changed since CAC began. Now most (not all) collectors view coins without stickers as less of a coin. Which is totally wrong in my opinion.
This is the basis of this question. Coins that are worth less should be coins that were not deemed worth of a sticker, but not necessarily coins that haven't been seen.
No, it's fine for CAC "C" coins and unseen coins to be treated the same
I would wager CAC has seen a very small part of total CRC Vintage material. PQ can be subjective based on taste.
The sheet has made the decision though treat CAC material and non CAC different on USGTC bids for grades MS 63 and above. Below MS63 I would agree moot issue. Because a coin not CAC everybody knows it's not automatically low end. Buyers will flock to items can cherry pick closest to melt PCGS especially w European Gold inflow regardless of sticker or not say generic $20 DE. I would say CAC has barely scratched surface on this material. However I did c where a 1904 $20 DE realized the Bid in sheet for CAC on Ebay so somebody actually did pay the money in that instance.
CAC has much easier job to do than NGC or PCGS. Those two companies have to decide if a coin is genuine, if it has been altered, if it has been processed beyond what is “market acceptable,” and then they grade it. All of these functions involve far more effort and expertise than just saying “yes” or “no.”
Everyone should be doing this when they buy a coin. To not verify these aspects of the coin in your own mind means you are blindly giving yourself to someone else's opinion ... the exact "crime" many accuse CAC supporters of doing.
Grading coins is an algorithm. It's a series of "yes" or "no" answers to questions. What CAC does (and the other stickering companies) is either "agree" or "disagree" with the TPG on those aspects. It involves the same expertise.
Ever show a slabbed coin to someone whose opinion you trust and ask, "What do you think?" If so, then you have done the same thing many collectors and dealers do with JA.
PCGS and NGC offer an opinion at a fair price ... nothing more. Their opinion is optional, there is no numismatic law that requires you to seek their opinion. CAC offers an opinion at a fair price. Its opinion is optional, there is no numismatic law that requires you to seek its opinion.
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
@TradeDollarNut: Yes, they stickered. And relying on Jay Brahin for gold is just gonna cost you more in the long run and be less effective. ... Bottom line though is that you know you need a crutch in the area that you aren't an expert - and you're too proud to spend the $30 on CAC? You'd turn to an amateur over JA?
Although J. Brahin is a talented numismatist and was a dedicated collector, Jay never claimed to be as skilled a grader as JA, nor did he regard himself as such. Indeed, Brahin frequently consulted JA.
Regarding the series that interest him, Dr. Duckor is a sharp grader in his own right and he never turned "to an amateur"! Why would anyone say this? The collecting activities of Jay Brahin and Dr. Duckor are discussed in my articles. I know both of them well. Some remarks regarding both of them in this thread are inaccurate and misleading. In all seriousness, reading my articles would lead to a greater understanding of their respective collecting activities. Importantly, the views of CAC put forth by J. Brahin and Dr. Duckor, respectively, are extremely relevant to the subject matter of this thread.
Yes, but I think things have changed since CAC began. Now most (not all) collectors view coins without stickers as less of a coin. Which is totally wrong in my opinion.
Not nearly as much of a factor or issue with PCGS coins....as it is with NGC coins. That's another way of what TDN said about PCGS winning the grading war. CAC came along and notarized that statement. If a coin has been reviewed by CAC, then yes, it is LESS of a coin than one with a sticker...in 85-95% of occurrences. That's the highest batting average among the TPGS/certifying services.
Yes, it's time for CAC verification to show "C" coins to not penalize coins they haven't seen
CaptHenmay
I agree with you with one exception. TPG services are needed as a collector may feel a coin is a AU 55 and the buyer a AU 50. Having TPG involved is like free enterprise in that its not perfect but the best game in town globally. Same goes for home appraisals and everything else involving a fee.
Insider2: @Analyst You sure have a way with words and clarity! I really enjoy your comments.
Thanks, most participants here seem to ignore them.
Dimeman: ... things have changed since CAC began. Now most (not all) collectors view coins without stickers as less of a coin. Which is totally wrong in my opinion.
Hopefully, no one is concluding that all coins that fail to sticker have serious problems, as this is not true. Many are excellent coins.
Buyers of CAC approved coins are not asserting that JA is infallible. JA is the Ted Williams of coin grading.
The fact that Ted Williams often had the highest batting average, during his career, does not mean that no one else should then have played baseball. Besides, the one player with the highest batting average is not the sole factor
@CoinStartled: The plan was successful to the extent that coins of over $1000 that are not stickered are assumed to have been submitted and failed and carry an invisible scarlet letter. ... Many collectors and dealers have not signed up for the concept that only one man is worthy of telling the rest of us what coins are good coins and what are less than good coins. I don't see this as a positive and in a currently stumbling and challenging market environment predict that cac will become little more than a footnote when the premiums dissolve.
As I said here before, once in a while, though rarely, I will examine a gold coin with a sticker that I find to have been doctored. So there, I find some coins with stickers to have been doctored, silver coins in far more instances than gold. It is also true that JA has identified many doctored coins that other experts missed.
Ted Williams did not commit errors during the few times that he struck out. Such 'outs' are part of the nature of the game; no one can bat 1.000!
Returning to statements by @Dimeman and @CoinStartled, I hope that collectors and other interested numismatists are not confusing averages with absolutes. ON AVERAGE, CAC stickered coins will be superior to coins of the same date and type, with the same certified grade, that failed to sticker, NOT ALWAYS.
Market values are partly a function of probabilistic assessments. It is rational for someone who does not know how to grade coins to pay more, on average, for CAC coins than for coins that fail to sticker. It is likewise rational to pay more for PCGS coins than for raw coins of the same dates and types that are represented as meriting the same respective grades
Neither JA nor PCGS will be around forever. It does not make sense to think solely in terms of numerical grades and certifications. For relatively more expensive coins, collectors should pay consultants. It is important to learn about the positive and negative characteristics of individual coins, and think about the reasons for particular grades and the overall quality, before spending a lot of money. Buyers of less expensive coins should seek the advice of coin experts who have pro-level batting averages AND can explain the physical details of coins, especially nuances.
@Analyst said:
Hopefully, no one is concluding that all coins that fail to sticker have serious problems, as this is not true. Many are excellent coins.
If by concluding you mean being pricing lower, then it seems that may be happening from what's been reported. That's the reason for this thread.
@CoinStartled: Note to Analyst: I exited this dance 6 days ago.
I am aware that CoinStartled and Bill Jones are not currently participating in this thread. Throughout the course of my life, I have quoted many people who were not actively debating me during the time period in which I quoted them, respectively. Indeed, I have quoted Artistotle multiple times, and he has been dead for thousands of years, literally.
As Mr. Jones and "CoinStartled" will be back to argue in future days in other contexts, it is fair enough to quote them, as their respective views are consistent with the views of some other numismatists. For educational purposes and the for the betterment of the coin community, such views should be discussed. People should have the right to criticize any grading service and any approach to acquiring certified coins, provided that there is not 'bashing' nor unsubstantiated allegations of wrongdoing. Furthermore, I believe that I am fairly representing their views and explaining why I disagree. In the event that I unfairly represent someone's viewpoint, I will be very much willing to seek to correct the matter and/or apologize.
Zoins quoted me and then responded to a statement of mine: @Analyst said, Hopefully, no one is concluding that all coins that fail to sticker have serious problems, as this is not true. Many are excellent coins.
Zoins: If [Analyst is] concluding [that coins that fail at CAC are] being priced lower, then it seems that may be happening from what's been reported. That's the reason for this thread.
(A)- I have said repeatedly that, CAC approved coins, ON AVERAGE, sell for more than the same coins would realize if they did not have CAC stickers, NOT ALWAYS. As this point is so obvious to people who frequently observe coin markets (as most forum members do), I did not think that it was the reason for this thread, and it is certainly not one of the points that I was emphasizing in my posts to this thread. In my mind, this is a parameter, not a point introduced in this thread.
(B)- I was under the impression that this thread is about how the qualities of the coins that failed at CAC, or are believed to have failed, are being perceived.
(C)- Bill Jones: So ever coin that JA does not like shall now wear "the wear the mark of Cain." ... The absurdity of this satire is only slightly beyond the absurdity of [an apparent] assumption that any certified coin without a CAC sticker is overgraded and unacceptable.
CoinStartled: CAC by it's presence in the market has created a de facto scarlet letter on the coins that have not received their coveted sticker.
Bill Jones: If you CAC people could just leave other people alone and live your own little CAC world, it would be great. But you can’t do that. You have to run your mouths all the time about how coins without stickers suck.
Although non-CAC coins are priced lower ON AVERAGE, it does not follow that the non-CAC coins are "overgraded and unacceptable." The price differentials have to do with probabilities and risk assessments. Officials at auto insurance companies are not assuming that every male driver under age 25 is extremely dangerous.
CAC stickered coins have been subjected to an additional and important filter. No one can bat 1.000, however, and graders at all services view hundreds of coins each day. It is important to form rational expectations. Of course, there are some excellent coins that failed at CAC.
This place is no place to criticizing anyone for their opinions
Coin grading is not a science it is an art and subject to opinions!
Seldom do all agree on a coins grade/ eye appeal.
Pat Vetter,Mercury Dime registry set,1938 Proof set registry,Pat & BJ Coins:724-325-7211
I am aware that CoinStartled and Bill Jones are not currently participating in this thread. Throughout the course of my life, I have quoted many people who were not actively debating me during the time period in which I quoted them, respectively. Indeed, I have quoted Artistotle multiple times, and he has been dead for thousands of years, literally.
...and Aristotle is still buried in his modern Greek commems.
@PTVETTER said:
This place is no place to criticizing anyone for their opinions
Coin grading is not a science it is an art and subject to opinions!
Seldom do all agree on a coins grade/ eye appeal.
I should think that you and everyone else would agree that SOME OPINIONS ARE MUCH BETTER THAN OTHERS!
While my opinions are not too accurate, those who are much better are the folks to learn from here, and not Joe the big-time dealer or collector.
Comments
Those two companies have to decide if a coin is genuine, if it has been altered, if it has been processed beyond what is “market acceptable,” and then they grade it. All of these functions involve far more effort and expertise than just saying “yes” or “no.”
What makes you think that CAC doesn't do all that?
I can't answer you any more because the monitors have told me to be quiet. The field is yours. You can say whatever you want, and I will not and can not respond. I took the chance and expressed my opinion above, and that is the end of it.
Or did JB rely on Duckor?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Can they examine the rims on old holdered coins?
It was mutual.
I got a moderator warning as well last night. Best that I bow out of the CAC discussions.
Have way with it, Bruce.
in your case half a hundred posts could have triggered it
Someone, somewhere, needs powder in their diaper.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
This is all helpful to the newbie to coin collecting.
Sorta like vaccinations to look forward to because you'll die if you don't get one.
But now it's getting clearer and clearer why we are in this current coin bull market.
Seems someone got what they wanted. No surprise.
@Coinstartled said: "Not a win for the seller whose coin has not seen daylight for a decade and a half and wants to sell."
IMO, this comment has no bearing on the issue. His coin must stand on its own when it comes time to sell. he also has the option to get it slabbed or try for a "bean."
@Analyst You sure have a way with words and clarity! I really enjoy your comments.
Yes, but I think things have changed since CAC began. Now most (not all) collectors view coins without stickers as less of a coin. Which is totally wrong in my opinion.
Edited out on "second thought."
But I ...have.... CAPITULATED!
Only stickered $5 and $10 ...gold for me now.
~~> @stman said:
Shame that open discussion as well as so many other things in this great country are "not acceptable " any longer.
Sign of the times...... for now at least
Beware of European gold hoards that continue to surface.
I have spoken to several posters on both sides of this issue and told them to follow forum rules. That's it. If you can state your position without violating forum rules - and I'd remind everyone to look at those again right now - then your post will stay. We won't delete it or ask you to edit it. But the rules concerning attacking or insulting other people, and the rule concerning bashing or promoting other grading companies - violations of those rules have been occurring in this thread.
I've mentioned that here several times.
No sweat. Any coin I get from here on out will be gold with a substantial part of the price being intrinsic value.
I do not TRUST this market.
Not one little bit.
Why beware? If enough 1848 CAL.'s surface I might be able to afford one.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Been following this discussion closely. Please note, I don't have a dog in this fight since I don't know enough about it. But this may actually be of value so...
You guys can't see things through the eyes of a total newb who wasn't aware of rare U.S. coins 90 days ago, but has immersed himself fully. There is some discussion here as to whether non-CAC coins will or should stand on their own and command the same value as CAC coins of identical grade.
I've been tracking auction results and studying auction result archives. I am now speaking of coins priced between $200 -
$500. There is absolutely no doubt that a CAC sticker increases the value of a coin as compared with an identical one that's not stickered. Anyone who doubts this hasn't looked in depth at auction results over the past 36 months on sub-$500 coins.
In addition, a sticker can raise price above that of a better coin of same type and grade that's slabbed and unstickered. There is no doubt of this whatsoever. Maybe the buyers aren't sophisticated, but they're paying.
But it's not the coin that commands the premium. It's the hype and/or inability to make one's own judgment about a coin.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Ah, that may well be. I'll leave it up to the pros to debate it. I have my theory but I'll keep it to myself until I have 500 posts.
Don't keep it to yourself! Your input is just as important as anyone else's.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I would like to make a comment on the part I have bolded in the quote below....
1) I actually agree with it. The CAC sticker (even green) does seem to allow for higher asking prices, and higher prices paid in many instances, to even these lower (price) level coins.
2) Sometimes the sellers put too much value in the stickers.
I have a real world example of this.....there is a type coin I have been watching for and wanting. Many of this type are cleaned and straight graded in holders. I don't like that. I want something more original and have been prepared to pay up for that.
I found one, on ebay, that was PCGS, original looking, in AU (I like that grade/pricepoint for this issue), AND it was CAC'ed (green).
I "found" it ~2-3 months ago. It was priced ~20% above PCGS guide. It was priced ABOVE what other, similarly graded, ones went for. It was priced ~150% of what it was last sold for (that PCGS lookup could find) from last 2016.
So, barely 6 months had passed when I found it and it was priced at 150% of it's last sale. Knowing that ebay fees will hit someone, I made an offer to the seller that still would have given them 25-30%+ profit, but save me some money as well. They declined. We both had pleasant exchanges with each other the entire time...neither of us got testy at all...it was professional and I commend them.
We did not do a deal.
I still wanted this type coin, however, and kept it in my watch list. In case it sold (and I would be sad) or in case he dropped the price. He never dropped the price.
I just purchased a NON-CAC version of this type coin outside of ebay. It is PCGS. It is the same grade. I paid ~ PCGS guide value, because there were 2 of us bidders wanting it for the last couple hundred $$$. It is a coin under $1000, so it is certainly not in the rarified air that some play in.
So, while the sticker can, and does, add value/price to a coin, sometimes sellers get carried away because of that. In this case, the above seller still has the coin available, and that inventory hasn't moved. Since it has been available, it looks more to me like it is a dealer/flipper more than a collector just selling off some coins. So, from the business side, a decision was made on the price, but money is just sitting there stagnant. Not sure I would go the same route if it were me.
****> I've been tracking auction results and studying auction result archives. I am now speaking of coins priced between $200 -
**>
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
This is the basis of this question. Coins that are worth less should be coins that were not deemed worth of a sticker, but not necessarily coins that haven't been seen.
Who cares why CAC coins yield more!!!
When I sell a coin I want to maximize $$$$ to me
I would wager CAC has seen a very small part of total CRC Vintage material. PQ can be subjective based on taste.
The sheet has made the decision though treat CAC material and non CAC different on USGTC bids for grades MS 63 and above. Below MS63 I would agree moot issue. Because a coin not CAC everybody knows it's not automatically low end. Buyers will flock to items can cherry pick closest to melt PCGS especially w European Gold inflow regardless of sticker or not say generic $20 DE. I would say CAC has barely scratched surface on this material. However I did c where a 1904 $20 DE realized the Bid in sheet for CAC on Ebay so somebody actually did pay the money in that instance.
Everyone should be doing this when they buy a coin. To not verify these aspects of the coin in your own mind means you are blindly giving yourself to someone else's opinion ... the exact "crime" many accuse CAC supporters of doing.
Grading coins is an algorithm. It's a series of "yes" or "no" answers to questions. What CAC does (and the other stickering companies) is either "agree" or "disagree" with the TPG on those aspects. It involves the same expertise.
Ever show a slabbed coin to someone whose opinion you trust and ask, "What do you think?" If so, then you have done the same thing many collectors and dealers do with JA.
PCGS and NGC offer an opinion at a fair price ... nothing more. Their opinion is optional, there is no numismatic law that requires you to seek their opinion. CAC offers an opinion at a fair price. Its opinion is optional, there is no numismatic law that requires you to seek its opinion.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
@TradeDollarNut:
@CoinStartled:
Although J. Brahin is a talented numismatist and was a dedicated collector, Jay never claimed to be as skilled a grader as JA, nor did he regard himself as such. Indeed, Brahin frequently consulted JA.
Regarding the series that interest him, Dr. Duckor is a sharp grader in his own right and he never turned "to an amateur"! Why would anyone say this? The collecting activities of Jay Brahin and Dr. Duckor are discussed in my articles. I know both of them well. Some remarks regarding both of them in this thread are inaccurate and misleading. In all seriousness, reading my articles would lead to a greater understanding of their respective collecting activities. Importantly, the views of CAC put forth by J. Brahin and Dr. Duckor, respectively, are extremely relevant to the subject matter of this thread.
The Dazzling Collecting Journey of Dr. Steven Duckor
Brahin's Syrup
The Saints of Dr. Duckor (which I had not yet seen when I wrote this article)
All-Time Greatest Collection of Barber Half Dollars, Part 2
Not nearly as much of a factor or issue with PCGS coins....as it is with NGC coins. That's another way of what TDN said about PCGS winning the grading war. CAC came along and notarized that statement. If a coin has been reviewed by CAC, then yes, it is LESS of a coin than one with a sticker...in 85-95% of occurrences. That's the highest batting average among the TPGS/certifying services.
CaptHenmay
I agree with you with one exception. TPG services are needed as a collector may feel a coin is a AU 55 and the buyer a AU 50. Having TPG involved is like free enterprise in that its not perfect but the best game in town globally. Same goes for home appraisals and everything else involving a fee.
Insider2:
Thanks, most participants here seem to ignore them.
Dimeman:
Hopefully, no one is concluding that all coins that fail to sticker have serious problems, as this is not true. Many are excellent coins.
Buyers of CAC approved coins are not asserting that JA is infallible. JA is the Ted Williams of coin grading.
The fact that Ted Williams often had the highest batting average, during his career, does not mean that no one else should then have played baseball. Besides, the one player with the highest batting average is not the sole factor
@CoinStartled:
As I said here before, once in a while, though rarely, I will examine a gold coin with a sticker that I find to have been doctored. So there, I find some coins with stickers to have been doctored, silver coins in far more instances than gold. It is also true that JA has identified many doctored coins that other experts missed.
Ted Williams did not commit errors during the few times that he struck out. Such 'outs' are part of the nature of the game; no one can bat 1.000!
Returning to statements by @Dimeman and @CoinStartled, I hope that collectors and other interested numismatists are not confusing averages with absolutes. ON AVERAGE, CAC stickered coins will be superior to coins of the same date and type, with the same certified grade, that failed to sticker, NOT ALWAYS.
Market values are partly a function of probabilistic assessments. It is rational for someone who does not know how to grade coins to pay more, on average, for CAC coins than for coins that fail to sticker. It is likewise rational to pay more for PCGS coins than for raw coins of the same dates and types that are represented as meriting the same respective grades
Neither JA nor PCGS will be around forever. It does not make sense to think solely in terms of numerical grades and certifications. For relatively more expensive coins, collectors should pay consultants. It is important to learn about the positive and negative characteristics of individual coins, and think about the reasons for particular grades and the overall quality, before spending a lot of money. Buyers of less expensive coins should seek the advice of coin experts who have pro-level batting averages AND can explain the physical details of coins, especially nuances.
How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?
Insightful10@gmail.com
Note to Analyst: I exited this dance 6 days ago.
If by concluding you mean being pricing lower, then it seems that may be happening from what's been reported. That's the reason for this thread.
@CoinStartled:
I am aware that CoinStartled and Bill Jones are not currently participating in this thread. Throughout the course of my life, I have quoted many people who were not actively debating me during the time period in which I quoted them, respectively. Indeed, I have quoted Artistotle multiple times, and he has been dead for thousands of years, literally.
As Mr. Jones and "CoinStartled" will be back to argue in future days in other contexts, it is fair enough to quote them, as their respective views are consistent with the views of some other numismatists. For educational purposes and the for the betterment of the coin community, such views should be discussed. People should have the right to criticize any grading service and any approach to acquiring certified coins, provided that there is not 'bashing' nor unsubstantiated allegations of wrongdoing. Furthermore, I believe that I am fairly representing their views and explaining why I disagree. In the event that I unfairly represent someone's viewpoint, I will be very much willing to seek to correct the matter and/or apologize.
Zoins quoted me and then responded to a statement of mine:
Zoins:
(A)- I have said repeatedly that, CAC approved coins, ON AVERAGE, sell for more than the same coins would realize if they did not have CAC stickers, NOT ALWAYS. As this point is so obvious to people who frequently observe coin markets (as most forum members do), I did not think that it was the reason for this thread, and it is certainly not one of the points that I was emphasizing in my posts to this thread. In my mind, this is a parameter, not a point introduced in this thread.
(B)- I was under the impression that this thread is about how the qualities of the coins that failed at CAC, or are believed to have failed, are being perceived.
(C)- Bill Jones:
CoinStartled:
Bill Jones:
Although non-CAC coins are priced lower ON AVERAGE, it does not follow that the non-CAC coins are "overgraded and unacceptable." The price differentials have to do with probabilities and risk assessments. Officials at auto insurance companies are not assuming that every male driver under age 25 is extremely dangerous.
CAC stickered coins have been subjected to an additional and important filter. No one can bat 1.000, however, and graders at all services view hundreds of coins each day. It is important to form rational expectations. Of course, there are some excellent coins that failed at CAC.
The Specter of Coin Doctoring and The Survival of Great Coins
@Coinstartled said: "I exited this dance 6 days ago."
Well it's nice to see you dancing again! Any comments on what @Analyst has written since your return?
The subject is touchy and I am not too good at walking on eggshells. I'll pass.
But your opinion is VALUABLE and shared by many. Go break some shells anyway as the mods are giving us a lot of leeway recently.
This place is no place to criticizing anyone for their opinions
Coin grading is not a science it is an art and subject to opinions!
Seldom do all agree on a coins grade/ eye appeal.
...and Aristotle is still buried in his modern Greek commems.
I should think that you and everyone else would agree that SOME OPINIONS ARE MUCH BETTER THAN OTHERS!
While my opinions are not too accurate, those who are much better are the folks to learn from here, and not Joe the big-time dealer or collector.