No, it's fine for CAC "C" coins and unseen coins to be treated the same
@Insider2 said:
You won't find it on the NGC forum either...that place is DEAD.
...nobody wants to read a CAC thread about white plastic I guess...maybe if they started a "Crossover" sub-forum it would get plenty of "before" stories that would just eventually end up over here...with a bean
@keets said: "...that results in two things happening: coins with the CAC sticker tend to get more expensive and coins without the sticker don't.
That should be great for the little guys who collect. Another thing, if we put 100 of those non-stickered coins on the table, some would be nicer than others and the little guys with knowledge are going to get some pretty coins at a lower price. Sorta like what goes on now with the second tier TPGS slabs that are not eligible for a bean until they are cracked and crossed.
Since CAC is the god of all that is numismatic they should start their own slabbing business and all the kool-aid drinkers can kick PCGS & NCG to the curb.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Roll eyes...You have not thought this out. Obviously you have no clue as to the amount of money it costs to start a TPGS. I do as I was approached to start one in the late 1970's. I'll bet you can triple the cost today.
What do you think it costs to produce JUST the INSERTS for SE size slabs? How about the cost to make the dies for just one Branson (I don't know what the TPGS's use) Slab Machine?
Anyway...CAC already has a grading service. By using stickers they have eliminated most of the start up and maintenance costs. JA is not dumb.
@Insider2 said:
Roll eyes...You have not thought this out. Obviously you have no clue as to the amount of money it costs to start a TPGS. I do as I was approached to start one in the late 1970's. I'll bet you can triple the cost today.
What do you think it costs to produce JUST the INSERTS for SE size slabs? How about the cost to make the dies for just one Branson (I don't know what the TPGS's use) Slab Machine?
Anyway...CAC already has a grading service. By using stickers they have eliminated most of the start up and maintenance costs. JA is not dumb.
I think you missed the sarcasm.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@epcjimi1 said: "Just like there used to be Pan Am, TWA, Western, Braniff in the airline biz, so will the 3rd / 4th party graders go. Coin grading business will consolidate, eventually. One will sell to another, etc. MHO"
As your statement ended as a HO, I took away my "disagree."
In MHO, it ain't going to happen. ICG, SEGS, ANACS, and others offer services the others don't. Customer service is also much better and so are the prices and speed of service. The two major services have pissed-off too many former customers who refuse to use them.
That said, If NGC and PCGS cut their fees for two years, slab everything, cut the turnaround to one week, and ....(that's enough hints ...they could drive the others out eventually.
@ms70 said:
Since CAC is the god of all that is numismatic they should start their own slabbing business and all the kool-aid drinkers can kick PCGS & NCG to the curb.
I actually wish there were a third major grading service that would effectively compete with PCGS and NGC. ANACS and ICG aren't even close IMHO.
In MHO, it ain't going to happen. ICG, SEGS, ANACS, and others offer services the others don't. Customer service is also much better and so are the prices and speed of service. The two major services have pissed-off too many former customers who refuse to use them.
There is an intermediate option, in which the majors acquire the smaller firms but purport to let them operate independently.
@Tradernik said: "There is an intermediate option, in which the majors acquire the smaller firms but purport to let them operate independently."
Not going to happen for all the small services. There is some bad blood involved. I can cee ANACS (West side of the country) being sold to NGC (East) as IMHO, they will be the first of the second tier services to be in trouble. They are already dropping fees on a regular basis. SEGS an ICG are privately owned with ICG possibly in stronger hands and with more experienced authenticators/graders. In the end, who knows. We'll probably be in a depression or World War within a couple of years.
@tradedollarnut said:
Here's my main beef: Pcgs won the grading wars and ngc coins are cents on the dollar. Where's the animosity towards David Hall? It's like a personal vendetta toward JA. Makes no sense to me
How many of you feel confident enough to buy a $10,000+ coin raw? How about graded but not CAC? How about a $100,000+ coin? I can't speak for Bill, but I think he is saying he would do both if it met his criteria based on his experience level. To me, that takes some stones and I respect him for that. A lot of us would never invest that much without the blessing of a grading company and some of us would also want it to be CAC.
So how many of you who are piling on would actually buy a $100,000+ coin raw? I wouldn't. My comfort level on a raw coin stops at about $1,500. What is yours?
No, it's fine for CAC "C" coins and unseen coins to be treated the same
Question: How do you sell your coin collection for $1,000,000???
Answer: Buy $2,000,000 worth of non-CAC coins LOL...
It doesn't matter if you can grade if your buyers can't...anyone who doesn't like CAC has never sold a coin...or maybe you don't care what your collection sells for...that's cool too...
I submit 98% to PCGS, and about 2% to NGC. On a rare occasion I use ANACS. To date, I've not used CAC's services. If anyone decides to buy a coin from me, I hope beyond hope that they're buying the coin.
@tradedollarnut said:
Here's my main beef: Pcgs won the grading wars and ngc coins are cents on the dollar. Where's the animosity towards David Hall? It's like a personal vendetta toward JA. Makes no sense to me
I don't understand this. Please pm me B.
Bill despises CAC having the power to raise or lower the value of his coins despite their grade. Why doesn't he despise Pcgs for having that same power over his ngc coins? Cac blesses a grade with a sticker, Pcgs with a crossover - its all the same.
@BillJones: ... the absurdity of [an] assumption that any certified coin without a CAC sticker is over graded and unacceptable. Contrary to what has become popular belief among some of you, JA is not perfect and omnipresent.
I am not blindly following CAC. Indeed, there are many CAC approved coins that I maintain should not have been stickered, and there are some coins that fail to sticker that I contend should have been approved. My aim at the moment is set the record straight, about CAC and JA. Some of the statements in this thread about JA's intentions and CAC operations are false, in a factual sense.
@BillJones: Here's a dirty little secret. JA does not grade ever coin for CAC. He hires minions to do that, and some of those minions have been the same dealers you have seen at the shows.
No, JA assured me in a conversation today of a point that I already believed. JA finalizes EVERY SINGLE coin that receives a CAC sticker. There are others who screen coins, but they are sometimes over-ruled by JA. They are providing input, while JA makes the final decisions regarding coins submitted to CAC.
@Analyst posted: No, JA assured me in a conversation today of a point that I already believed. JA finalizes EVERY SINGLE coin that receives a CAC sticker.
What is the turnaround time for CAC this week? When one person does all the final grading, the company standard will be less wishy-washy than for a TPGS with several finalizers.
@tradedollarnut said:
Here's my main beef: Pcgs won the grading wars and ngc coins are cents on the dollar. Where's the animosity towards David Hall? It's like a personal vendetta toward JA. Makes no sense to me
I don't understand this. Please pm me B.
Bill despises CAC having the power to raise or lower the value of his coins despite their grade. Why doesn't he despise Pcgs for having that same power over his ngc coins? Cac blesses a grade with a sticker, Pcgs with a crossover - its all the same.
How many of you feel confident enough to buy a $10,000+ coin raw? How about graded but not CAC? How about a $100,000+ coin? I can't speak for Bill, but I think he is saying he would do both if it met his criteria based on his experience level. To me, that takes some stones and I respect him for that. A lot of us would never invest that much without the blessing of a grading company and some of us would also want it to be CAC.
So how many of you who are piling on would actually buy a $100,000+ coin raw? I wouldn't. My comfort level on a raw coin stops at about $1,500. What is yours?
Safe to say that few of us here will ever be in the market for a $100,000 coin, raw or otherwise. $10,000 on the other hand probably a fair amount.
The CAC sticker would be meaningless to me in this range. PCGS holder would make me comfortable...NGC a bit less so. Priciest coin that I ever did own was in NGC plastic and I never bothered to submit it to the most holy Emperor of numismatics.
@tradedollarnut said:
Here's my main beef: Pcgs won the grading wars and ngc coins are cents on the dollar. Where's the animosity towards David Hall? It's like a personal vendetta toward JA. Makes no sense to me
The day JA goes to full service grading (real plastic and everything) I will tip my hat to him as two top graders are not enough. Pasting a sticker on another fellow's work though is weak and creates much of the animosity.
@tradedollarnut said:
Here's my main beef: Pcgs won the grading wars and ngc coins are cents on the dollar. Where's the animosity towards David Hall? It's like a personal vendetta toward JA. Makes no sense to me
Pasting a sticker on another fellow's work though is weak and creates much of the animosity.
How many of you feel confident enough to buy a $10,000+ coin raw? How about graded but not CAC? How about a $100,000+ coin? I can't speak for Bill, but I think he is saying he would do both if it met his criteria based on his experience level. To me, that takes some stones and I respect him for that. A lot of us would never invest that much without the blessing of a grading company and some of us would also want it to be CAC.
So how many of you who are piling on would actually buy a $100,000+ coin raw? I wouldn't. My comfort level on a raw coin stops at about $1,500. What is yours?
Safe to say that few of us here will ever be in the market for a $100,000 coin, raw or otherwise. $10,000 on the other hand probably a fair amount.
The CAC sticker would be meaningless to me in this range. PCGS holder would make me comfortable...NGC a bit less so. Priciest coin that I ever did own was in NGC plastic and I never bothered to submit it to the most holy Emperor of numismatics.
Easy to say when you have no money on the line. Basically, you're blowing smoke.
How many of you feel confident enough to buy a $10,000+ coin raw? How about graded but not CAC? How about a $100,000+ coin? I can't speak for Bill, but I think he is saying he would do both if it met his criteria based on his experience level. To me, that takes some stones and I respect him for that. A lot of us would never invest that much without the blessing of a grading company and some of us would also want it to be CAC.
So how many of you who are piling on would actually buy a $100,000+ coin raw? I wouldn't. My comfort level on a raw coin stops at about $1,500. What is yours?
Safe to say that few of us here will ever be in the market for a $100,000 coin, raw or otherwise. $10,000 on the other hand probably a fair amount.
The CAC sticker would be meaningless to me in this range. PCGS holder would make me comfortable...NGC a bit less so. Priciest coin that I ever did own was in NGC plastic and I never bothered to submit it to the most holy Emperor of numismatics.
Easy to say when you have no money on the line. Basically, you're blowing smoke. At $10k, anyone with any brains is looking for CAC quality
When Laura was bashing wannabe dealers on this forum a decade ago she boasted of having the talent to buy pricey raw coins at Stacks' sales. Was that all BS or did she have to have Albanese approve each bid?
I know that you are married to CAC and that is fine. Many of the rest of us have the ability and confidence to do well without his services..
How many of you feel confident enough to buy a $10,000+ coin raw? How about graded but not CAC? How about a $100,000+ coin? I can't speak for Bill, but I think he is saying he would do both if it met his criteria based on his experience level. To me, that takes some stones and I respect him for that. A lot of us would never invest that much without the blessing of a grading company and some of us would also want it to be CAC.
So how many of you who are piling on would actually buy a $100,000+ coin raw? I wouldn't. My comfort level on a raw coin stops at about $1,500. What is yours?
Safe to say that few of us here will ever be in the market for a $100,000 coin, raw or otherwise. $10,000 on the other hand probably a fair amount.
The CAC sticker would be meaningless to me in this range. PCGS holder would make me comfortable...NGC a bit less so. Priciest coin that I ever did own was in NGC plastic and I never bothered to submit it to the most holy Emperor of numismatics.
Easy to say when you have no money on the line. Basically, you're blowing smoke. At $10k, anyone with any brains is looking for CAC quality
When Laura was bashing wannabe dealers on this forum a decade ago she boasted of having the talent to buy pricey raw coins at Stacks' sales. Was that all BS or did she have to have Albanese approve each bid?
I know that you are married to CAC and that is fine. Many of the rest of us have the ability and confidence to do well without his services..
@tradedollarnut said:
Here's my main beef: Pcgs won the grading wars and ngc coins are cents on the dollar. Where's the animosity towards David Hall? It's like a personal vendetta toward JA. Makes no sense to me
The day JA goes to full service grading (real plastic and everything) I will tip my hat to him as two top graders are not enough. Pasting a sticker on another fellow's work though is weak and creates much of the animosity.
Perhaps you are confused as to what CAC is all about. JA has already participated in starting two grading services...now he has started a wholesale service for high quality coins.
CoinStartled: $10,000 on the other hand probably a fair amount. ... The CAC sticker would be meaningless to me in this range. PCGS holder would make me comfortable...NGC a bit less so. Priciest coin that I ever did own was in NGC plastic and I never bothered to submit it to the most holy Emperor of numismatics.
The use of the term "meaningless" in this context is strange and misleading. As @CnnCoins has pointed out in this forum, it is indisputable that coins with stickers, ON AVERAGE, sell for more than the exact same coins would in the same holders without stickers. This is a fact about the marketplace, not an opinion.
While the conclusions drawn by one of the top graders in the nation often involve opinions, it is a fact that such conclusions are meaningful. If a top brain surgeon rendered an opinion about a patient, such an opinion would be 'meaningful,' regardless of whether or not it is entirely true. There would be an excellent chance that such an opinion would be informative and valuable.
Unlike in baseball, players and other experts in the coin community do not know their respective batting averages, as there are so many variables. Even so, it is possible that many coin enthusiasts have deluded themselves into thinking that they bat over .300 when they really bat at much lower levels.
Over the last quarter-century, I have often questioned, quizzed or polled collectors, dealers and other writers about coins in auctions. Even after adjusting my analyses for my own imperfections and biases, it is still clear to me that few people really are expert graders of rare U.S. coins. Some of the people who think they are expert graders or represent themelves as expert graders are really not experts. I am completely certain that JA is one of the leading experts. Does he bat 1.000? No, he is the Ted Williams of coin grading and he strikes out at times like we all do. Nonetheless, there is no one who is better at grading U.S. gold than JA.
@Analyst said: CoinStartled: $10,000 on the other hand probably a fair amount. ... The CAC sticker would be meaningless to me in this range. PCGS holder would make me comfortable...NGC a bit less so. Priciest coin that I ever did own was in NGC plastic and I never bothered to submit it to the most holy Emperor of numismatics.
The use of the term "meaningless" in this context is strange and misleading. As @CnnCoins has pointed out in this forum, it is indisputable that coins with stickers, ON AVERAGE, sell for more than the exact same coins would in the same holders without stickers. This is a fact about the marketplace, not an opinion.
And in the early days of third party grading, NGC graded coins boasted higher selling prices than PCGS. A share of Amazon sold for $100 more than an ounce of Platinum several weeks ago, now it sells at a discount.
To use the fact that cool guys are currently paying a premium for a green sticker lends little to the discussion of the value of a single set of eyes to a mature but sagging hobby.
@tradedollarnut said:
Laura purchased raw coins up to nearly $300k at Stacks. And they graded out - I know that for a fact
And that is my point. Skilled numismatist don't need a blessing from a designated maven.
There are less than 100 people in the world that can grade as well as Laura. A dozen are on this Forum (occasionally). NONE of them have posted that CAC is a waste of time
I did not read this thread completely as there are just too many different things being discussed.
To the OP, CAC will never label a coin as being seen but not approved. That would just be taking future money out of their pocket and any good business will not do that no matter how nice the one running the company is.
For what it's worth here is my take on third party grading and CAC.
All I need is a third party grading company that is better and more experienced than myself is to tell me that in their opinion a coin is real and here is what (In their opinion) they think it grades. The rest is up to me. There are many high grade coins that to me visually look like crap, but yet received a high grade and this includes many coins with a CAC sticker. Even with my limited knowledge, I decide for myself what I like and what I will pay for it. Neither PCGS, NGC, CAC or any other grading company will tell me what to pay. If a coin is nice in my eyes and appeals to me I will pay up for it. If it has a high grade and a CAC sticker and I think it looks like crap, I don't even consider it no matter whose blessing it has.
Let's use the third party grading companies and CAC to assist us in making this hobby better, not turn this hobby into something that is no longer fun because we believe that without a certain company's blessing we can't collect what we like.
@tradedollarnut said:
Laura purchased raw coins up to nearly $300k at Stacks. And they graded out - I know that for a fact
And that is my point. Skilled numismatist don't need a blessing from a designated maven.
There are less than 100 people in the world that can grade as well as Laura. A dozen are on this Forum (occasionally). NONE of them have posted that CAC is a waste of time
How many of you feel confident enough to buy a $10,000+ coin raw? How about graded but not CAC? How about a $100,000+ coin? I can't speak for Bill, but I think he is saying he would do both if it met his criteria based on his experience level. To me, that takes some stones and I respect him for that. A lot of us would never invest that much without the blessing of a grading company and some of us would also want it to be CAC.
So how many of you who are piling on would actually buy a $100,000+ coin raw? I wouldn't. My comfort level on a raw coin stops at about $1,500. What is yours?
Safe to say that few of us here will ever be in the market for a $100,000 coin, raw or otherwise. $10,000 on the other hand probably a fair amount.
The CAC sticker would be meaningless to me in this range. PCGS holder would make me comfortable...NGC a bit less so. Priciest coin that I ever did own was in NGC plastic and I never bothered to submit it to the most holy Emperor of numismatics.
Easy to say when you have no money on the line. Basically, you're blowing smoke. At $10k, anyone with any brains is looking for CAC quality
When Laura was bashing wannabe dealers on this forum a decade ago she boasted of having the talent to buy pricey raw coins at Stacks' sales. Was that all BS or did she have to have Albanese approve each bid?
I know that you are married to CAC and that is fine. Many of the rest of us have the ability and confidence to do well without his services..
I call BS. You'd pee your pants buying a $100k coin - be it raw, ngc or Pcgs. $30 for JA's opinion on that coin? Priceless. Been there and done that.
>
$100k ....If it is gold I want Jay Brahin in my corner. Silver? I'll trust my own skills.
@tradedollarnut said:
Laura purchased raw coins up to nearly $300k at Stacks. And they graded out - I know that for a fact
But did they sticker? If not, how do we know the pieces weren't merely "expensive dreck" as Laura calls it? Reading her blog posts throughout the years, it appears to me that she encourages distrust of the grading services and that coins only graduate from dreckdom/coin purgatory when blessed by CAC.
Yes, they stickered. And relying on Jay Brahin for gold is just gonna cost you more in the long run and be less effective
Bottom line though is that you know you need a crutch in the area that you aren't an expert - and you're too proud to spend the $30 on CAC? You'd turn to an amateur over JA?
@tradedollarnut said:
Laura purchased raw coins up to nearly $300k at Stacks. And they graded out - I know that for a fact
And that is my point. Skilled numismatist don't need a blessing from a designated maven.
There are less than 100 people in the world that can grade as well as Laura. A dozen are on this Forum (occasionally). NONE of them have posted that CAC is a waste of time
How many of you feel confident enough to buy a $10,000+ coin raw? How about graded but not CAC? How about a $100,000+ coin? I can't speak for Bill, but I think he is saying he would do both if it met his criteria based on his experience level. To me, that takes some stones and I respect him for that. A lot of us would never invest that much without the blessing of a grading company and some of us would also want it to be CAC.
So how many of you who are piling on would actually buy a $100,000+ coin raw? I wouldn't. My comfort level on a raw coin stops at about $1,500. What is yours?
Safe to say that few of us here will ever be in the market for a $100,000 coin, raw or otherwise. $10,000 on the other hand probably a fair amount.
The CAC sticker would be meaningless to me in this range. PCGS holder would make me comfortable...NGC a bit less so. Priciest coin that I ever did own was in NGC plastic and I never bothered to submit it to the most holy Emperor of numismatics.
Easy to say when you have no money on the line. Basically, you're blowing smoke. At $10k, anyone with any brains is looking for CAC quality
When Laura was bashing wannabe dealers on this forum a decade ago she boasted of having the talent to buy pricey raw coins at Stacks' sales. Was that all BS or did she have to have Albanese approve each bid?
I know that you are married to CAC and that is fine. Many of the rest of us have the ability and confidence to do well without his services..
I call BS. You'd pee your pants buying a $100k coin - be it raw, ngc or Pcgs. $30 for JA's opinion on that coin? Priceless. Been there and done that.
>
$100k ....If it is gold I want Jay Brahin in my corner. Silver? I'll trust my own skills.
@tradedollarnut said:
Yes, they stickered. And relying on Jay Brahin for gold is just gonna cost you more in the long run and be less effective
Bottom line though is that you know you need a crutch in the area that you aren't an expert - and you're too proud to spend the $30 on CAC? You'd turn to an amateur over JA?
Bruce...you helped create CAC a decade ago as you and Laura among others believed that PCGS had slipped as a top tier grader. Rather than create a new PCGS type service to compete in the market, it was deemed more efficient to take a single grader and have him either bless or give a thumbs down to a given coin.
The plan was successful to the extent that coins of over $1000 that are not stickered are assumed to have been submitted and failed and carry an invisible scarlet letter.
Many collectors and dealers have not signed up for the concept that only one man is worthy of telling the rest of us what coins are good coins and what are less than good coins. I don't see this as a positive and in a currently stumbling and challenging market environment predict that cac will become little more than a footnote when the premiums dissolve.
This, im sure, was discussed before. (But i dont recall what the consensus was ) What happens when JA is no longer with us? Do all the coins he blessed previously, now have a higher value? Will the original stickers be worth more than post-JA stckers. Does the company fold, or Is there an understudy that will have the kind of pull and influenced to carry on with that business model?
@BruceS said:
This, im sure, was discussed before. (But i dont recall what the consensus was ) What happens when JA is no longer with us? Do all the coins he blessed previously, now have a higher value? Will the original stickers be worth more than post-JA stckers. Does the company fold, or Is there an understudy that will have the kind of pull and influenced to carry on with that business model?
The big trouble with CAC is consistency, and that is a problem that could easily be fixed. All CAC says is yes or no. If you are in doubt, just say no. It’s that simple.
CAC has much easier job to do than NGC or PCGS. Those two companies have to decide if a coin is genuine, if it has been altered, if it has been processed beyond what is “market acceptable,” and then they grade it. All of these functions involve far more effort and expertise than just saying “yes” or “no.”
Why isn’t CAC a full-service grading company? I think the answer is that it’s impossible to start a top tier full-service grading company in the current market. If you are a tougher grader than the “top two,” you will have a hard time getting any business. If you are easier, you fall into the realm of the “second tier” services.
Getting it “just right” seems to be impossible. It would be a great thing for collectors if there were more competition in the coin certification market. Competition keeps the suppliers on their toes. That’s how capitalism and open markets are supposed to work.
ICG tried to break into the top tier service realm when they first opened. A few good dealers tried to support them in that effort, but the “big boys” didn’t like it. They criticized the service without merit at first. Then ICG let their standards drop, made some unfortunate attribution errors and slipped into the second tier.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Comments
...nobody wants to read a CAC thread about white plastic I guess...maybe if they started a "Crossover" sub-forum it would get plenty of "before" stories that would just eventually end up over here...with a bean
@keets said: "...that results in two things happening: coins with the CAC sticker tend to get more expensive and coins without the sticker don't.
That should be great for the little guys who collect. Another thing, if we put 100 of those non-stickered coins on the table, some would be nicer than others and the little guys with knowledge are going to get some pretty coins at a lower price. Sorta like what goes on now with the second tier TPGS slabs that are not eligible for a bean until they are cracked and crossed.
Since CAC is the god of all that is numismatic they should start their own slabbing business and all the kool-aid drinkers can kick PCGS & NCG to the curb.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Roll eyes...You have not thought this out. Obviously you have no clue as to the amount of money it costs to start a TPGS. I do as I was approached to start one in the late 1970's.
I'll bet you can triple the cost today.
What do you think it costs to produce JUST the INSERTS for SE size slabs? How about the cost to make the dies for just one Branson (I don't know what the TPGS's use) Slab Machine?
Anyway...CAC already has a grading service. By using stickers they have eliminated most of the start up and maintenance costs. JA is not dumb.
Just like there used to be Pan Am, TWA, Western, Braniff in the airline biz, so will the 3rd / 4th party graders go.
Coin grading business will consolidate, eventually. One will sell to another, etc. MHO
I think you missed the sarcasm.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@ms70 said: "I think you missed the sarcasm."
I did. Swoosh...right over my head. LOL.
@epcjimi1 said: "Just like there used to be Pan Am, TWA, Western, Braniff in the airline biz, so will the 3rd / 4th party graders go. Coin grading business will consolidate, eventually. One will sell to another, etc. MHO"
As your statement ended as a HO, I took away my "disagree."
In MHO, it ain't going to happen. ICG, SEGS, ANACS, and others offer services the others don't. Customer service is also much better and so are the prices and speed of service. The two major services have pissed-off too many former customers who refuse to use them.
That said, If NGC and PCGS cut their fees for two years, slab everything, cut the turnaround to one week, and ....(that's enough hints
...they could drive the others out eventually. 
whew. that was close, thank goodness gracious for that. I was sweating it.
I actually wish there were a third major grading service that would effectively compete with PCGS and NGC. ANACS and ICG aren't even close IMHO.
It appears there is: CAC.
There is an intermediate option, in which the majors acquire the smaller firms but purport to let them operate independently.
@Tradernik said: "There is an intermediate option, in which the majors acquire the smaller firms but purport to let them operate independently."
Not going to happen for all the small services. There is some bad blood involved. I can cee ANACS (West side of the country) being sold to NGC (East) as IMHO, they will be the first of the second tier services to be in trouble. They are already dropping fees on a regular basis. SEGS an ICG are privately owned with ICG possibly in stronger hands and with more experienced authenticators/graders. In the end, who knows. We'll probably be in a depression or World War within a couple of years.
I don't understand this. Please pm me B.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
I would and have no problem.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Question: How do you sell your coin collection for $1,000,000???
Answer: Buy $2,000,000 worth of non-CAC coins LOL...
It doesn't matter if you can grade if your buyers can't...anyone who doesn't like CAC has never sold a coin...or maybe you don't care what your collection sells for...that's cool too...
I submit 98% to PCGS, and about 2% to NGC. On a rare occasion I use ANACS. To date, I've not used CAC's services. If anyone decides to buy a coin from me, I hope beyond hope that they're buying the coin.
Bill despises CAC having the power to raise or lower the value of his coins despite their grade. Why doesn't he despise Pcgs for having that same power over his ngc coins? Cac blesses a grade with a sticker, Pcgs with a crossover - its all the same.
@BillJones:
I am not blindly following CAC. Indeed, there are many CAC approved coins that I maintain should not have been stickered, and there are some coins that fail to sticker that I contend should have been approved. My aim at the moment is set the record straight, about CAC and JA. Some of the statements in this thread about JA's intentions and CAC operations are false, in a factual sense.
@BillJones:
No, JA assured me in a conversation today of a point that I already believed. JA finalizes EVERY SINGLE coin that receives a CAC sticker. There are others who screen coins, but they are sometimes over-ruled by JA. They are providing input, while JA makes the final decisions regarding coins submitted to CAC.
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@Analyst posted: No, JA assured me in a conversation today of a point that I already believed. JA finalizes EVERY SINGLE coin that receives a CAC sticker.
What is the turnaround time for CAC this week? When one person does all the final grading, the company standard will be less wishy-washy than for a TPGS with several finalizers.
Agree.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Safe to say that few of us here will ever be in the market for a $100,000 coin, raw or otherwise. $10,000 on the other hand probably a fair amount.
The CAC sticker would be meaningless to me in this range. PCGS holder would make me comfortable...NGC a bit less so. Priciest coin that I ever did own was in NGC plastic and I never bothered to submit it to the most holy Emperor of numismatics.
The day JA goes to full service grading (real plastic and everything) I will tip my hat to him as two top graders are not enough. Pasting a sticker on another fellow's work though is weak and creates much of the animosity.
It's called "overpowering" not weak...
...try telling that to Woody Hayes buddy
Easy to say when you have no money on the line. Basically, you're blowing smoke.
When Laura was bashing wannabe dealers on this forum a decade ago she boasted of having the talent to buy pricey raw coins at Stacks' sales. Was that all BS or did she have to have Albanese approve each bid?
I know that you are married to CAC and that is fine. Many of the rest of us have the ability and confidence to do well without his services..
I call BS.
Laura purchased raw coins up to nearly $300k at Stacks. And they graded out - I know that for a fact
Perhaps you are confused as to what CAC is all about. JA has already participated in starting two grading services...now he has started a wholesale service for high quality coins.
CoinStartled:
The use of the term "meaningless" in this context is strange and misleading. As @CnnCoins has pointed out in this forum, it is indisputable that coins with stickers, ON AVERAGE, sell for more than the exact same coins would in the same holders without stickers. This is a fact about the marketplace, not an opinion.
While the conclusions drawn by one of the top graders in the nation often involve opinions, it is a fact that such conclusions are meaningful. If a top brain surgeon rendered an opinion about a patient, such an opinion would be 'meaningful,' regardless of whether or not it is entirely true. There would be an excellent chance that such an opinion would be informative and valuable.
Unlike in baseball, players and other experts in the coin community do not know their respective batting averages, as there are so many variables. Even so, it is possible that many coin enthusiasts have deluded themselves into thinking that they bat over .300 when they really bat at much lower levels.
Over the last quarter-century, I have often questioned, quizzed or polled collectors, dealers and other writers about coins in auctions. Even after adjusting my analyses for my own imperfections and biases, it is still clear to me that few people really are expert graders of rare U.S. coins. Some of the people who think they are expert graders or represent themelves as expert graders are really not experts. I am completely certain that JA is one of the leading experts. Does he bat 1.000? No, he is the Ted Williams of coin grading and he strikes out at times like we all do. Nonetheless, there is no one who is better at grading U.S. gold than JA.
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And that is my point. Skilled numismatist don't need a blessing from a designated maven.
And in the early days of third party grading, NGC graded coins boasted higher selling prices than PCGS. A share of Amazon sold for $100 more than an ounce of Platinum several weeks ago, now it sells at a discount.
To use the fact that cool guys are currently paying a premium for a green sticker lends little to the discussion of the value of a single set of eyes to a mature but sagging hobby.
There are less than 100 people in the world that can grade as well as Laura. A dozen are on this Forum (occasionally). NONE of them have posted that CAC is a waste of time
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I did not read this thread completely as there are just too many different things being discussed.
To the OP, CAC will never label a coin as being seen but not approved. That would just be taking future money out of their pocket and any good business will not do that no matter how nice the one running the company is.
For what it's worth here is my take on third party grading and CAC.
All I need is a third party grading company that is better and more experienced than myself is to tell me that in their opinion a coin is real and here is what (In their opinion) they think it grades. The rest is up to me. There are many high grade coins that to me visually look like crap, but yet received a high grade and this includes many coins with a CAC sticker. Even with my limited knowledge, I decide for myself what I like and what I will pay for it. Neither PCGS, NGC, CAC or any other grading company will tell me what to pay. If a coin is nice in my eyes and appeals to me I will pay up for it. If it has a high grade and a CAC sticker and I think it looks like crap, I don't even consider it no matter whose blessing it has.
Let's use the third party grading companies and CAC to assist us in making this hobby better, not turn this hobby into something that is no longer fun because we believe that without a certain company's blessing we can't collect what we like.
JMHO...
Donato
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$100k ....If it is gold I want Jay Brahin in my corner. Silver? I'll trust my own skills.
But did they sticker? If not, how do we know the pieces weren't merely "expensive dreck" as Laura calls it? Reading her blog posts throughout the years, it appears to me that she encourages distrust of the grading services and that coins only graduate from dreckdom/coin purgatory when blessed by CAC.
Yes, they stickered. And relying on Jay Brahin for gold is just gonna cost you more in the long run and be less effective
Bottom line though is that you know you need a crutch in the area that you aren't an expert - and you're too proud to spend the $30 on CAC? You'd turn to an amateur over JA?
/eyeroll
JB sent his gold to JA, you know!
Ya but what would JC do ?
Pray!
Duckor did!
Or are just smarter than the average bear....
Duckor had David Akers. He didn't need anyone else.
Bruce...you helped create CAC a decade ago as you and Laura among others believed that PCGS had slipped as a top tier grader. Rather than create a new PCGS type service to compete in the market, it was deemed more efficient to take a single grader and have him either bless or give a thumbs down to a given coin.
The plan was successful to the extent that coins of over $1000 that are not stickered are assumed to have been submitted and failed and carry an invisible scarlet letter.
Many collectors and dealers have not signed up for the concept that only one man is worthy of telling the rest of us what coins are good coins and what are less than good coins. I don't see this as a positive and in a currently stumbling and challenging market environment predict that cac will become little more than a footnote when the premiums dissolve.
So buy non stickered coins that you like at a discount- win/win
Not a win for the seller whose coin has not seen daylight for a decade and a half and wants to sell.
This, im sure, was discussed before. (But i dont recall what the consensus was ) What happens when JA is no longer with us? Do all the coins he blessed previously, now have a higher value? Will the original stickers be worth more than post-JA stckers. Does the company fold, or Is there an understudy that will have the kind of pull and influenced to carry on with that business model?
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I think that Pope Benedict is available.
The big trouble with CAC is consistency, and that is a problem that could easily be fixed. All CAC says is yes or no. If you are in doubt, just say no. It’s that simple.
CAC has much easier job to do than NGC or PCGS. Those two companies have to decide if a coin is genuine, if it has been altered, if it has been processed beyond what is “market acceptable,” and then they grade it. All of these functions involve far more effort and expertise than just saying “yes” or “no.”
Why isn’t CAC a full-service grading company? I think the answer is that it’s impossible to start a top tier full-service grading company in the current market. If you are a tougher grader than the “top two,” you will have a hard time getting any business. If you are easier, you fall into the realm of the “second tier” services.
Getting it “just right” seems to be impossible. It would be a great thing for collectors if there were more competition in the coin certification market. Competition keeps the suppliers on their toes. That’s how capitalism and open markets are supposed to work.
ICG tried to break into the top tier service realm when they first opened. A few good dealers tried to support them in that effort, but the “big boys” didn’t like it. They criticized the service without merit at first. Then ICG let their standards drop, made some unfortunate attribution errors and slipped into the second tier.