The whole sight-unseen aspect is whats destroying the hobby. Enabling coins to trade sight-unseen adds nothing to the collecting hobby . Its only needed to monetize the movement of coins.
I collect things because I like them , I don't care if dealers make money. I don't care if every last dealer goes out of business . I'll collect acorns if i feel like it.
As soon as monetizing something becomes more important than the thing itself the end is approaching. The parasites and the endless middlemen are not more important than the collecting.
What I find funny is the way many around here call John rejects C coins. Just a PC word for the attorneys imo and a way for the services to not fight them.
Of. Course they call rejects C coins and maybe some bark. And the lemmings imo follow.
Can I get an OY VEY?
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
No, it's fine for CAC "C" coins and unseen coins to be treated the same
The grading services could circumvent the cac hair splitting and over-analysis by working into the grades added grading analysis with some coded system. Strike, surface preservation, issues, etc. could be coded into the grade retrieved if desired. Sometimes the problems are too small to warrant concern by graders where cac flags the coin as a problem.
No, it's fine for CAC "C" coins and unseen coins to be treated the same
@stman said:
What I find funny is the way many around here call John rejects C coins. Just a PC word for the attorneys imo and a way for the services to not fight them.
Of. Course they call rejects C coins and maybe some bark. And the lemmings imo follow.
Can I get an OY VEY?
Yes, it's time for CAC verification to show "C" coins to not penalize coins they haven't seen
........................................A DAY AT THE STICKER FACTORY...............
"Well, whatcha think?"
"Gosh, it's pretty sweet. It really looks nice."
"But is it ..um.."disturbed?"
"Darn, I really can't tell. "
"Okay then.... don't put one on."
"Whadda we do with the fee?"
"Spend it, I'd say."
@CaptHenway said: "Just another way that slabbing is destroying collecting." While I'll disagree with this, I do miss the "old days" without slabs when all the dealers had their inventory raw in red boxes. The rest of your post is "right on:"
"Buy the coin, not the slab. Not all raw coins are problem coins. Not all slabbed coins are problem free. Not all CAC'd coins are premium coins. Not all premium coins are CAC'd. If you cannot learn how to look at coins yourself, you have no business criticizing other people's grading."
@BillJones said: "There is a HUGE difference between marking a coin as "Genuine" or "Cleaned."
First, “Genuine" or "Cleaned" means that the coin is damaged or improperly cleaned, which is pretty much a permeant situation, unless the negative comment was not merited in the first place. A “C coin” could become a “B coin” or even an “A coin” if it were to be placed in a holder with a lower grade on it.
LOL. Let's all add more confusion to the "net" grading farce. Open a photo or Internet grading guide and none of the "Newly graded C's that are down graded for a sticker" should match. Get real Mr. Bill. You seem to be the coin grading Ex-Pert" in the eyes of most posters around here. Try explaining that "wacky" solution in your coin club presentations.
Mr. Bill continued: "Second, who says that CAC got it right? The assumption here is that the CAC opinion is perfect, and no one can challenge it, which is total BS. I know that some you people would like to have a coin grader dictator, because you think that he is perfect. For the rest of us, there are some educated, talented people who might have a different opinion."
Perhaps due to a misguided focus, you are leaving one important factor out of your post here: CAC only stickers coins that are already graded by NGC and PCGS. In actuality, JA who I'll remind you worked at PCGS, and was a founder of NGC and CAC has only added his opinion on the original slab to coins he would personally purchase. Same thing Rick Snow does. I cannot understand why James Halperin has not stickered coins yet as he and JA probably have demonstrated they are above your considerable skill level!
Mr. Bill writes: "Right now, the CAC dictator advocates and the high auction house buyers’ fees are ruining the hobby for me and telling me that getting out might be a good idea financially, even if my heart is not in it sell. If a lot of collectors come to that same conclusion, your little stickers won’t amount to anything because there will be a much smaller market to support them."
Sorry to learn you feel that way. I'll bet you can get over it if you try. Not being in the stratosphere of collecting that you have reached, I have not felt any effect from the TPGS and CAC. Perhaps, you should forget about buying any coins and concentrate on your ability to teach.
MR Bill continued: "If you CAC people could just leave other people alone and live your own little CAC world, it would be great. But you can’t do that. You have to run your mouths all the time about how coins without stickers suck." [I've never heard this expressed - ever.] "Any coin that didn’t make the CAC muster should be marked so that you will know you can’t make them into something better." [LOL, that's not going to happen.] "If you want to play the CAC grading grade, learn to grade for yourself or stick to buying the CAC product. That’s what dealers, who don’t play the crack-out game, have done for years. " [Now you are making some sense.]
@Coinstartled said: "Your last line was wrong, TDN. Bill has been passionate about the hobby for longer than almost anyone on the forum. Many of his points are sound."
I'm in total agreement. I also know that passion does not make someone "right." I've pointed out some of the faults of an "opinion" clouded by blind passion.
@Zoins said: "If this is the case, should every coin that doesn't get a TPG plus "+" also be effectively body-bagged? If not, what is the difference?"
Big difference. I'll bet if you think about it - you'll see. I'm tired of pontificating.
"Every time someone starts a CAC thread, an angel gets his wings."
No, I think the devil throws another shovel of coal into the furnace with cake of sulfur for good measure.
It's the most divisive issue on these boards.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Insider2 said: @Zoins said: "If this is the case, should every coin that doesn't get a TPG plus "+" also be effectively body-bagged? If not, what is the difference?"
Big difference. I'll bet if you think about it - you'll see. I'm tired of pontificating.
Still working on it. Please expand on this when you're well rested
No, it's fine for CAC "C" coins and unseen coins to be treated the same
@Zoins said:
Yes, but the goal here is to kill all the other CAC threads.
If CAC posted "C" coins publicly then people that did not want to get their coins stickered could avoid having their coins decrease in value and could stop complaining about CAC
If CAC posted non approved coins, it would remove specialation, without which (e.g. risk/reward) the coin market wouldn't exist as we know it. Also it would create a windfall for TPG cause people would resubmit all the non-approved CAC coins to get new cert #'s...and for myriad other reasons let's leave CAC dialogue be for a week or two. Really guys, it's OCD.... let's talk about coins not stickers and plastic
@Insider2 said: @Zoins said: "If this is the case, should every coin that doesn't get a TPG plus "+" also be effectively body-bagged? If not, what is the difference?"
Big difference. I'll bet if you think about it - you'll see. I'm tired of pontificating.
Still working on it. Please expand on this when you're well rested
You've got the "stars" and the experience so I will as soon as you please take a stab at why IMO (which may be just uninformed drivel) they are two different things.
No, it's fine for CAC "C" coins and unseen coins to be treated the same
OK, that is it.
Off to the DARK WEB.
For enough $$$, CAC's data base can be hacked, and any slab you desire, payment in Bitcoin of course, will be entered into the data base, with whatever color bean you want. Conversely, any coin currently there can have it's bean color altered, so you can either negotiate from power or slam someone for fraudulently bean'ing a coin.
I am waiting for some industrious person in a far away land, eating off of their China plate, to consider buying real US coins, repacking them in perfect fake TPG fake slabs with perfect fake labels and uploading cert numbers into the TPG data base, albeit up 1 or 2 grades, and then uploading a fake CAC id into their data base, and selling them at shows, etc.
Given enough incentive, people that make a little, offered a lot, can reproduce anything and hack into anything.
No, it's fine for CAC "C" coins and unseen coins to be treated the same
...I just added 10-20 sec .gifs on some of my eBay listings. People ask me if coins without stickers have been to CAC and I tell them the truth man (it's not that hard to figure out IMHO). I think I may just straight up list in my descriptions if the coin didn't sticker. Why not offer full disclosure going forward...this younger generation is way too tech smart and why get caught being dishonest over a few bucks. Honesty will always pay the highest dividends if you live long enough. I also feel that with the newly added .gifs I can defend my coins for sale that did not get a sticker, or at the very least offer a better view of the coins for my customers to gather their own opinions
@stman said:
What I find funny is the way many around here call John rejects C coins. Just a PC word for the attorneys imo and a way for the services to not fight them.
Of. Course they call rejects C coins and maybe some bark. And the lemmings imo follow.
Can I get an OY VEY?
Sure! "Oy vey!"
Thank you sir.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
Yes, it's time for CAC verification to show "C" coins to not penalize coins they haven't seen
@TomB said:
It can't happen. There is too much built in liability on CAC's end at this time.
But what about the liability that they created by devaluing my coins that have never been to CAC? Why should my collection be monetarily penalized for non-action on my part? Although hypothetical, I see it as becoming reality.
@TomB said:
It can't happen. There is too much built in liability on CAC's end at this time.
But what about the liability that they created by devaluing my coins that have never been to CAC? Why should my collection be monetarily penalized for non-action on my part? Although hypothetical, I see it as becoming reality.
This is at the heart of Bill Jones passionate position, in my opinion. He has a 1M+ collection that hasn't been to CAC and he does not want to be compelled to submit. Mr Market may not want some of his collection if JA doesn't bless. He is angry accordingly.
Big bucks collections can bring big headaches, it appears. I'm glad I'm not in his position. Too much stress for a hobby pastime.
@TomB said:
It can't happen. There is too much built in liability on CAC's end at this time.
But what about the liability that they created by devaluing my coins that have never been to CAC? Why should my collection be monetarily penalized for non-action on my part? Although hypothetical, I see it as becoming reality.
That isn't CAC fault the hobby has started to move on from your standards. I-pods don't owe Sony money/an apology for killing the Walkman.
@TomB said:
It can't happen. There is too much built in liability on CAC's end at this time.
But what about the liability that they created by devaluing my coins that have never been to CAC? Why should my collection be monetarily penalized for non-action on my part? Although hypothetical, I see it as becoming reality.
That isn't CAC fault the hobby has started to move on from your standards. I-pods don't owe Sony money/an apology for killing the Walkman.
apples and oranges , no one is monetizing or collecting used walkmans
@TomB said:
It can't happen. There is too much built in liability on CAC's end at this time.
But what about the liability that they created by devaluing my coins that have never been to CAC? Why should my collection be monetarily penalized for non-action on my part? Although hypothetical, I see it as becoming reality.
That isn't CAC fault the hobby has started to move on from your standards. I-pods don't owe Sony money/an apology for killing the Walkman.
The issue is that CAC has created a premium for stickered coins. Which in turn is creating a lower perceived value for non-stickered coins. Since I don't submit my collection to CAC, my non-stickered coins are now viewed as not worth as much... My standard has not moved. Everyone else's standard is moving. My inaction to submit is penalizing me. Monetary gain/loss to someone either way. It's not like my coins are now outdated and worthless with new technology taking the spotlight. They should be worth PQ (in my eyes) but now they aren't??
@TomB said:
It can't happen. There is too much built in liability on CAC's end at this time.
But what about the liability that they created by devaluing my coins that have never been to CAC? Why should my collection be monetarily penalized for non-action on my part? Although hypothetical, I see it as becoming reality.
That isn't CAC fault the hobby has started to move on from your standards. I-pods don't owe Sony money/an apology for killing the Walkman.
The issue is that CAC has created a premium for stickered coins. Which in turn is creating a lower perceived value for non-stickered coins. Since I don't submit my collection to CAC, my non-stickered coins are now viewed as not worth as much... My standard has not moved. Everyone else's standard is moving. My inaction to submit is penalizing me. Monetary gain/loss to someone either way. It's not like my coins are now outdated and worthless with new technology taking the spotlight. They should be worth PQ (in my eyes) but now they aren't??
I completely get it as someone on the wrong side of the CAC generation. That said standards change and it is still less impactful than slabs were to the hobby in the early 90s.
Here's my main beef: Pcgs won the grading wars and ngc coins are cents on the dollar. Where's the animosity towards David Hall? It's like a personal vendetta toward JA. Makes no sense to me
@Insider2 said:
What is this "Dark Web" I've heard of. Aren't you afraid of being hacked or worse while on it?
Not when you are one of dark web poobahs.
Thanks, my interest is aroused Mr. Poobah. When I get to work on Monday, I'm going to let our two IT "poobahs" and their Internet Security firm give me a tour of your Realm.
@tradedollarnut said:
Here's my main beef: Pcgs won the grading wars and ngc coins are cents on the dollar. Where's the animosity towards David Hall? It's like a personal vendetta toward JA. Makes no sense to me
There's certainly no animosity or vendetta from me. I'm just trying to create some discussion and understanding of the underlying issues.
@tradedollarnut said:
Here's my main beef: Pcgs won the grading wars and ngc coins are cents on the dollar. Where's the animosity towards David Hall? It's like a personal vendetta toward JA. Makes no sense to me
There's certainly no animosity or vendetta from me. I'm just trying to create some discussion and understanding of the underlying issues.
Whoever starts that poll should probably use an alt
@tradedollarnut said:
Here's my main beef: Pcgs won the grading wars and ngc coins are cents on the dollar. Where's the animosity towards David Hall? It's like a personal vendetta toward JA. Makes no sense to me
There's certainly no animosity or vendetta from me. I'm just trying to create some discussion and understanding of the underlying issues.
...you sure you ain't just trying to keep the common man in his thread-cave for a couple weeks extra?
@tradedollarnut said:
Here's my main beef: Pcgs won the grading wars and ngc coins are cents on the dollar. Where's the animosity towards David Hall? It's like a personal vendetta toward JA. Makes no sense to me
There's certainly no animosity or vendetta from me. I'm just trying to create some discussion and understanding of the underlying issues.
...you sure you ain't just trying to keep the common man in his thread-cave for a couple weeks extra?
Nah, I want the common man perspective.
That being said, I have to say the thread cave isn't all that bad
No, it's fine for CAC "C" coins and unseen coins to be treated the same
I voted no. There are already unscrupulous dealers who crack out cleaned or other details graded coins to sell raw as a way to deceive uneducated buyers. This would add another option to their repertoire. They would crack out the "no fly list" coins and get them regraded with new certs to sell as "not yet submitted to CAC coins".
How many of you feel confident enough to buy a $10,000+ coin raw? How about graded but not CAC? How about a $100,000+ coin? I can't speak for Bill, but I think he is saying he would do both if it met his criteria based on his experience level. To me, that takes some stones and I respect him for that. A lot of us would never invest that much without the blessing of a grading company and some of us would also want it to be CAC.
So how many of you who are piling on would actually buy a $100,000+ coin raw? I wouldn't. My comfort level on a raw coin stops at about $1,500. What is yours?
I would. I have bought many near six figure coins raw and one in excess of $200k. I'd still love to have JA's blessing - it's friggen scary doing that chit
Yes, it's time for CAC verification to show "C" coins to not penalize coins they haven't seen
CAC is simply another marketing ploy to extract money from the collectors. If CAC went away tomorrow, numismatics would still go on. They are not critical to the hobby.
I would. Unfortunately, I'm limited to a few hundred dollars now. The only "pricy" coins I could ever afford were put on a layaway plan by my local dealer. Back then my gem Cameo PL 1894 $2 1/2 only cost $375. The price of one month's apartment rent. Those were the good old days. Wish I knew then what I think I know now.
@Insider2 said:
What is this "Dark Web" I've heard of. Aren't you afraid of being hacked or worse while on it?
Not when you are one of dark web poobahs.
Thanks, my interest is aroused Mr. Poobah. When I get to work on Monday, I'm going to let our two IT "poobahs" and their Internet Security firm give me a tour of your Realm.
All poobahs are not created equally.
Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
No, it's fine for CAC "C" coins and unseen coins to be treated the same
Very few oF all CRC have been viewed by CAC (especially material under $300). I price PQ coins accordingly CAC or not / cost plus,etc. CAC a moot issue for me, just another factor in markup equation. That one guys opinion trumps all lol - I go with my own opinion as I know how grade / look at coins. Whether coin ABC can be subjective based on individual taste and one guys taste does not trump all. CAC just applicable for US Vintage coins not other major areas like mods, world, or currency. I am concerned the sticker game may cause a shift away from US Vintage Coins.
I have no problem selling u CAC coins but u will have to pay the money. The sheet has broken out bid for CAC vs non CAC on USGTC and 20th Century Gold. Recently, I recently purchased a nice PCGS 64 CAC Morgan for $115. CDN Bid is $100 - my online price $160, show from my table is $140.
@tradedollarnut said:
Here's my main beef: Pcgs won the grading wars and ngc coins are cents on the dollar. Where's the animosity towards David Hall? It's like a personal vendetta toward JA. Makes no sense to me
I'm sure it exists, but I doubt you'll find it on the PCGS forums. You don't go to a party, drink the host's wine, and then tinkle on his carpet. The hobby is much larger than these forums.
the hobby and the collector is fortunate to have him on our side
Mr. Albanese and CAC are only "on our side" if we choose to use them. that has a lot to do with what has BillJones(and others like me) a little upset, he has arbitrarily changed the pricing structure and mindset of buyers. as more time passes the notion that a coin might be sub-par and/or not passed muster at CAC will become more prevalent. that results in two things happening: coins with the CAC sticker tend to get more expensive and coins without the sticker don't.
Comments
The whole sight-unseen aspect is whats destroying the hobby. Enabling coins to trade sight-unseen adds nothing to the collecting hobby . Its only needed to monetize the movement of coins.
I collect things because I like them , I don't care if dealers make money. I don't care if every last dealer goes out of business . I'll collect acorns if i feel like it.
As soon as monetizing something becomes more important than the thing itself the end is approaching. The parasites and the endless middlemen are not more important than the collecting.
"Every time someone starts a CAC thread, an angel gets his wings."
What I find funny is the way many around here call John rejects C coins. Just a PC word for the attorneys imo and a way for the services to not fight them.
Of. Course they call rejects C coins and maybe some bark. And the lemmings imo follow.
Can I get an OY VEY?
The grading services could circumvent the cac hair splitting and over-analysis by working into the grades added grading analysis with some coded system. Strike, surface preservation, issues, etc. could be coded into the grade retrieved if desired. Sometimes the problems are too small to warrant concern by graders where cac flags the coin as a problem.
Sure! "Oy vey!"
Do the female angles plumit to the earth? Or are their wings granted by forum bannings?
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Well, that seems to be gone anyway. Some months back, I called one of the major "sight unseen" dealers and got a quote on a Barber half.
No problem. Said what it was and had an offer ON THE PHONE! NOW...STAT.... immediately!
Sooooo.....fast forward to 3 ...weeks.. ago.
Sent an email to 3 of the dealers who purport to BUY stickered coins.
2 have not yet responded and the one who did said they would need to ....SEE.... the coins first.
These were 1891 proof coins. Stickered. 2 66's and one 64. Quarter, half, and dollar.
........................................A DAY AT THE STICKER FACTORY...............
"Well, whatcha think?"
"Gosh, it's pretty sweet. It really looks nice."
"But is it ..um.."disturbed?"
"Darn, I really can't tell. "
"Okay then.... don't put one on."
"Whadda we do with the fee?"
"Spend it, I'd say."
THE END
This entire CAC thing is stupid.
Yup I said it.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@CaptHenway said: "Just another way that slabbing is destroying collecting." While I'll disagree with this, I do miss the "old days" without slabs when all the dealers had their inventory raw in red boxes. The rest of your post is "right on:"
"Buy the coin, not the slab. Not all raw coins are problem coins. Not all slabbed coins are problem free. Not all CAC'd coins are premium coins. Not all premium coins are CAC'd. If you cannot learn how to look at coins yourself, you have no business criticizing other people's grading."
@BillJones said: "There is a HUGE difference between marking a coin as "Genuine" or "Cleaned."
First, “Genuine" or "Cleaned" means that the coin is damaged or improperly cleaned, which is pretty much a permeant situation, unless the negative comment was not merited in the first place. A “C coin” could become a “B coin” or even an “A coin” if it were to be placed in a holder with a lower grade on it.
LOL. Let's all add more confusion to the "net" grading farce. Open a photo or Internet grading guide and none of the "Newly graded C's that are down graded for a sticker" should match. Get real Mr. Bill. You seem to be the coin grading Ex-Pert" in the eyes of most posters around here. Try explaining that "wacky" solution in your coin club presentations.
Mr. Bill continued: "Second, who says that CAC got it right? The assumption here is that the CAC opinion is perfect, and no one can challenge it, which is total BS. I know that some you people would like to have a coin grader dictator, because you think that he is perfect. For the rest of us, there are some educated, talented people who might have a different opinion."
Perhaps due to a misguided focus, you are leaving one important factor out of your post here: CAC only stickers coins that are already graded by NGC and PCGS. In actuality, JA who I'll remind you worked at PCGS, and was a founder of NGC and CAC has only added his opinion on the original slab to coins he would personally purchase. Same thing Rick Snow does. I cannot understand why James Halperin has not stickered coins yet as he and JA probably have demonstrated they are above your considerable skill level!
Mr. Bill writes: "Right now, the CAC dictator advocates and the high auction house buyers’ fees are ruining the hobby for me and telling me that getting out might be a good idea financially, even if my heart is not in it sell. If a lot of collectors come to that same conclusion, your little stickers won’t amount to anything because there will be a much smaller market to support them."
Sorry to learn you feel that way. I'll bet you can get over it if you try. Not being in the stratosphere of collecting that you have reached, I have not felt any effect from the TPGS and CAC. Perhaps, you should forget about buying any coins and concentrate on your ability to teach.
MR Bill continued: "If you CAC people could just leave other people alone and live your own little CAC world, it would be great. But you can’t do that. You have to run your mouths all the time about how coins without stickers suck." [I've never heard this expressed - ever.] "Any coin that didn’t make the CAC muster should be marked so that you will know you can’t make them into something better." [LOL, that's not going to happen.] "If you want to play the CAC grading grade, learn to grade for yourself or stick to buying the CAC product. That’s what dealers, who don’t play the crack-out game, have done for years. " [Now you are making some sense.]
@Coinstartled said: "Your last line was wrong, TDN. Bill has been passionate about the hobby for longer than almost anyone on the forum. Many of his points are sound."
I'm in total agreement. I also know that passion does not make someone "right." I've pointed out some of the faults of an "opinion" clouded by blind passion.
@Zoins said: "If this is the case, should every coin that doesn't get a TPG plus "+" also be effectively body-bagged? If not, what is the difference?"
Big difference. I'll bet if you think about it - you'll see. I'm tired of pontificating.
@RYK said: "Every time someone starts a CAC thread, an angel gets his wings."
I heard that. You forgot the rest...: "something about what happens to a kitten."
PS Sorry @afford
If I had seen your post, I should have saved 40 minutes of "pecking-the-keys" with two fingers.
No, I think the devil throws another shovel of coal into the furnace with cake of sulfur for good measure.
It's the most divisive issue on these boards.
Still working on it. Please expand on this when you're well rested
I have heard/read that a coin could receive a CAC sticker even if was "rejected" before.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore...
If CAC posted non approved coins, it would remove specialation, without which (e.g. risk/reward) the coin market wouldn't exist as we know it. Also it would create a windfall for TPG cause people would resubmit all the non-approved CAC coins to get new cert #'s...and for myriad other reasons let's leave CAC dialogue be for a week or two. Really guys, it's OCD.... let's talk about coins not stickers and plastic
You've got the "stars" and the experience so I will as soon as you please take a stab at why IMO (which may be just uninformed drivel) they are two different things.
OK, that is it.
Off to the DARK WEB.
For enough $$$, CAC's data base can be hacked, and any slab you desire, payment in Bitcoin of course, will be entered into the data base, with whatever color bean you want. Conversely, any coin currently there can have it's bean color altered, so you can either negotiate from power or slam someone for fraudulently bean'ing a coin.
I am waiting for some industrious person in a far away land, eating off of their China plate, to consider buying real US coins, repacking them in perfect fake TPG fake slabs with perfect fake labels and uploading cert numbers into the TPG data base, albeit up 1 or 2 grades, and then uploading a fake CAC id into their data base, and selling them at shows, etc.
Given enough incentive, people that make a little, offered a lot, can reproduce anything and hack into anything.
@oih82w8
" I have heard/read that a coin could receive a CAC sticker even if was "rejected" before."
With my arms in the air shouting at the sky:
"KAHN"...........................................................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
...I just added 10-20 sec .gifs on some of my eBay listings. People ask me if coins without stickers have been to CAC and I tell them the truth man (it's not that hard to figure out IMHO). I think I may just straight up list in my descriptions if the coin didn't sticker. Why not offer full disclosure going forward...this younger generation is way too tech smart and why get caught being dishonest over a few bucks. Honesty will always pay the highest dividends if you live long enough. I also feel that with the newly added .gifs I can defend my coins for sale that did not get a sticker, or at the very least offer a better view of the coins for my customers to gather their own opinions
What is this "Dark Web" I've heard of. Aren't you afraid of being hacked or worse while on it?
Thank you sir.
But what about the liability that they created by devaluing my coins that have never been to CAC? Why should my collection be monetarily penalized for non-action on my part? Although hypothetical, I see it as becoming reality.
Not when you are one of dark web poobahs.
Just do NOT download the Tor browser.
This is at the heart of Bill Jones passionate position, in my opinion. He has a 1M+ collection that hasn't been to CAC and he does not want to be compelled to submit. Mr Market may not want some of his collection if JA doesn't bless. He is angry accordingly.
Big bucks collections can bring big headaches, it appears. I'm glad I'm not in his position. Too much stress for a hobby pastime.
That isn't CAC fault the hobby has started to move on from your standards. I-pods don't owe Sony money/an apology for killing the Walkman.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
apples and oranges , no one is monetizing or collecting used walkmans
The issue is that CAC has created a premium for stickered coins. Which in turn is creating a lower perceived value for non-stickered coins. Since I don't submit my collection to CAC, my non-stickered coins are now viewed as not worth as much... My standard has not moved. Everyone else's standard is moving. My inaction to submit is penalizing me. Monetary gain/loss to someone either way. It's not like my coins are now outdated and worthless with new technology taking the spotlight. They should be worth PQ (in my eyes) but now they aren't??
I completely get it as someone on the wrong side of the CAC generation. That said standards change and it is still less impactful than slabs were to the hobby in the early 90s.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Sticky subject.
Here's my main beef: Pcgs won the grading wars and ngc coins are cents on the dollar. Where's the animosity towards David Hall? It's like a personal vendetta toward JA. Makes no sense to me
Thanks, my interest is aroused Mr. Poobah. When I get to work on Monday, I'm going to let our two IT "poobahs" and their Internet Security firm give me a tour of your Realm.
There's certainly no animosity or vendetta from me. I'm just trying to create some discussion and understanding of the underlying issues.
...you sure you ain't just trying to keep the common man in his thread-cave for a couple weeks extra?
Nah, I want the common man perspective.
That being said, I have to say the thread cave isn't all that bad
I voted no. There are already unscrupulous dealers who crack out cleaned or other details graded coins to sell raw as a way to deceive uneducated buyers. This would add another option to their repertoire. They would crack out the "no fly list" coins and get them regraded with new certs to sell as "not yet submitted to CAC coins".
The real question for me is this:
How many of you feel confident enough to buy a $10,000+ coin raw? How about graded but not CAC? How about a $100,000+ coin? I can't speak for Bill, but I think he is saying he would do both if it met his criteria based on his experience level. To me, that takes some stones and I respect him for that. A lot of us would never invest that much without the blessing of a grading company and some of us would also want it to be CAC.
So how many of you who are piling on would actually buy a $100,000+ coin raw? I wouldn't. My comfort level on a raw coin stops at about $1,500. What is yours?
I would. I have bought many near six figure coins raw and one in excess of $200k. I'd still love to have JA's blessing - it's friggen scary doing that chit
CAC is simply another marketing ploy to extract money from the collectors. If CAC went away tomorrow, numismatics would still go on. They are not critical to the hobby.
Cheers
Bob
I would. Unfortunately, I'm limited to a few hundred dollars now. The only "pricy" coins I could ever afford were put on a layaway plan by my local dealer. Back then my gem Cameo PL 1894 $2 1/2 only cost $375. The price of one month's apartment rent. Those were the good old days. Wish I knew then what I think I know now.
All poobahs are not created equally.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
How much can you subdivide / refine the coin grading market?
Coin grading is always looking for better examples of a finite population.
Sure, there's the new discovery.
What was graded 63+, becomes 64.
It's kind of like transport aircraft design. Beside more powerful / efficient engines, there's not a lot to improve the design.
It's maxing out.
Very few oF all CRC have been viewed by CAC (especially material under $300). I price PQ coins accordingly CAC or not / cost plus,etc. CAC a moot issue for me, just another factor in markup equation. That one guys opinion trumps all lol - I go with my own opinion as I know how grade / look at coins. Whether coin ABC can be subjective based on individual taste and one guys taste does not trump all. CAC just applicable for US Vintage coins not other major areas like mods, world, or currency. I am concerned the sticker game may cause a shift away from US Vintage Coins.
I have no problem selling u CAC coins but u will have to pay the money. The sheet has broken out bid for CAC vs non CAC on USGTC and 20th Century Gold. Recently, I recently purchased a nice PCGS 64 CAC Morgan for $115. CDN Bid is $100 - my online price $160, show from my table is $140.
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Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I'm sure it exists, but I doubt you'll find it on the PCGS forums. You don't go to a party, drink the host's wine, and then tinkle on his carpet. The hobby is much larger than these forums.
the hobby and the collector is fortunate to have him on our side
Mr. Albanese and CAC are only "on our side" if we choose to use them. that has a lot to do with what has BillJones(and others like me) a little upset, he has arbitrarily changed the pricing structure and mindset of buyers. as more time passes the notion that a coin might be sub-par and/or not passed muster at CAC will become more prevalent. that results in two things happening: coins with the CAC sticker tend to get more expensive and coins without the sticker don't.