@coinpalice said:
i think the right move on this set would of been buying the very reasonable fdi and fs 70 graded sets at 130 dollars or lower and buying maybe one or two sets from the mint. I see the graded sets going up in the future as long as you get them at the mentioned 130 or lower, or even the Washington DC fdi set that sells below 100 in no reserve
Ironically, I think the graded sets will go down in the future. They've already dropped far more than the raw sets.
@grote15 said:
Actually, first class shipping cost is greater than $3.00 not even considering shipping materials.
Actually, that's not true. Commercial rate for shipping a set is $2.61 up to 4 ounces, $2.77 from 4-8 ounces. Single set weight 7 ounces packaged. Bubble envelope costs 6 cents plus about 5 cents worth of wrap.
But, again, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. MCM is probably losing money on the sets. But the sale price is still what it always has been: $30 to $35. Only MCM needs to care whether they are making or losing money. They are probably trying to clear inventory. They've made their money and they are moving on.
@coinpalice said:
remember, jmlanzaf bought sets hoping for a 35 sell, 5 dollar profit which would be a negative sale
Remember when Coinpalice used to be pumping this set....
By the way, I've sold almost 2/3 of my inventory at an average NET sale price of $34.13. Dang, I missed the mark by 87 cents.
My belief in these sets remains. My expectations, always modest, remain modest. I've called for this - from the beginning to be a $40 to $50 set 2 years down the road. I still believe that.
Most sets are now selling for between $30 and $34 with free shipping on eBay. There are a couple selling for a couple more dollars occasionally. Any way you look at it sellers are losing money on them. Factor in your time and free shipping and shipping material costs and these are now officially dogs!! Woof, woof.....
@coinpalice said:
the missing sets are irrelevant at this time, more sets would cause prices to decline even more, a sell out the prices remain the same
Actually, the missing sets would simply preserve the status quo with $30 to $35 prices.
Actually, yes. Mint was selling at 29.95 with free shipping
Free shipping wasn't available on the issue date.
Secondly, it costs $3.00 for postage and shipping supplies unless you are shipping free.
Cost of shipping is irrelevant. The mint sold them at $29.95 with free shipping from early October until they went unavailable. So, my statement stands correct: the current price is still higher than the Mint price. Even if you want to include the $4.95 shipping, if you buy 2 sets from MCM it is still above the issue price of the Mint $65.90 vs. $64.85).
So the cost to ship is irrelevant even though the seller has to pay it? LOL. well, yes, in that case your statement is correct even though that wasn't the point of my initial response to your statement. I thought that was obvious.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@coinpalice said:
i still believe these sets have a chance to go up in a few years, but short term is looking bleak for these sets
That, I agree with. The Mint (with the help of the 20,000 canceled sets) managed to botch this up. They actually continue to botch this up by failing to declare their intentions. They were selling 1000 per day before they went unavailable, where have those customers gone? Are they waiting for the Mint to contact them?
I'm currently selling a few at $35. Sales in the last week are up about 400%. Is that people getting tired of waiting for the Mint?
I put the last 100 away until next year when I expect firmer prices and less supply uncertainty.
Actually, yes. Mint was selling at 29.95 with free shipping
Free shipping wasn't available on the issue date.
Secondly, it costs $3.00 for postage and shipping supplies unless you are shipping free.
Cost of shipping is irrelevant. The mint sold them at $29.95 with free shipping from early October until they went unavailable. So, my statement stands correct: the current price is still higher than the Mint price. Even if you want to include the $4.95 shipping, if you buy 2 sets from MCM it is still above the issue price of the Mint $65.90 vs. $64.85).
So the cost to ship is irrelevant even though the seller has to pay it? LOL. well, yes, in that case your statement is correct even though that wasn't the point of my initial response to your statement. I thought that was obvious.
When you buy bread at the store, do you look at the price of the bread or the profit margin of the seller? Would you pay more to get your bread delivered from 2000 miles away because it cost the seller more to get it to you?
The SALE PRICE of the sets is the only thing that matters. It is the only thing that tells you what the market is for the item.
If I buy a bunch of these at $15 each from someone desperate and sell them on eBay at $25 for a 30% profit, are you telling me that means the market is STRONGER than MCM losing money at $32.95?
Since August 1st, these sets have sold for $30 to $35 except for August 2nd when they sold for $50+. They are still in the same price range. They really haven't gone up or down.
So the cost to ship is irrelevant even though the seller has to pay it? LOL. well, yes, in that case your statement is correct even though that wasn't the point of my initial response to your statement. I thought that was obvious.
Given that my point was simply that the price was $32.95 which is higher than the last sets the Mint sold, your discussion of shipping costs IS totally irrelevant to my statement. I never mentioned profit margins. I'm not MCM. I don't care what there margins are.
Actually, yes. Mint was selling at 29.95 with free shipping
Free shipping wasn't available on the issue date.
Secondly, it costs $3.00 for postage and shipping supplies unless you are shipping free.
Cost of shipping is irrelevant. The mint sold them at $29.95 with free shipping from early October until they went unavailable. So, my statement stands correct: the current price is still higher than the Mint price. Even if you want to include the $4.95 shipping, if you buy 2 sets from MCM it is still above the issue price of the Mint $65.90 vs. $64.85).
So the cost to ship is irrelevant even though the seller has to pay it? LOL. well, yes, in that case your statement is correct even though that wasn't the point of my initial response to your statement. I thought that was obvious.
When you buy bread at the store, do you look at the price of the bread or the profit margin of the seller? Would you pay more to get your bread delivered from 2000 miles away because it cost the seller more to get it to you?
The SALE PRICE of the sets is the only thing that matters. It is the only thing that tells you what the market is for the item.
If I buy a bunch of these at $15 each from someone desperate and sell them on eBay at $25 for a 30% profit, are you telling me that means the market is STRONGER than MCM losing money at $32.95?
Since August 1st, these sets have sold for $30 to $35 except for August 2nd when they sold for $50+. They are still in the same price range. They really haven't gone up or down.
Again you've missed the point of my statement which simply put is that a sale price of $32.95, if you're paying for shipping and packing materials, does not provide any profit if you paid $29.95 for said item.
Now you're trying to incorporate yet another scenario replete with desperate sellers, also? You have a penchant for twisting and extrapolating verbiage to suit your narrative or to claim you are "right" but those hypotheticals were not part of the initial point or my counterpoint, which is that there is no room for profit if you are buying an item for $29.95 and selling said item for $32.95.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
@coinpalice said:
i know several people who will never buy anything from the secondary market even at u.s. mint prices. they just don't support flippers
I've also seen a lot of people who ONLY buy from the secondary market because they are brand loyal. You should see the collections I buy. Many times, the Mint products are divorced from the Mint packaging because the "secondary market supplier" doesn't want the fish...er...customer to know where the sets came from.
Actually, yes. Mint was selling at 29.95 with free shipping
Free shipping wasn't available on the issue date.
Secondly, it costs $3.00 for postage and shipping supplies unless you are shipping free.
Cost of shipping is irrelevant. The mint sold them at $29.95 with free shipping from early October until they went unavailable. So, my statement stands correct: the current price is still higher than the Mint price. Even if you want to include the $4.95 shipping, if you buy 2 sets from MCM it is still above the issue price of the Mint $65.90 vs. $64.85).
So the cost to ship is irrelevant even though the seller has to pay it? LOL. well, yes, in that case your statement is correct even though that wasn't the point of my initial response to your statement. I thought that was obvious.
When you buy bread at the store, do you look at the price of the bread or the profit margin of the seller? Would you pay more to get your bread delivered from 2000 miles away because it cost the seller more to get it to you?
The SALE PRICE of the sets is the only thing that matters. It is the only thing that tells you what the market is for the item.
If I buy a bunch of these at $15 each from someone desperate and sell them on eBay at $25 for a 30% profit, are you telling me that means the market is STRONGER than MCM losing money at $32.95?
Since August 1st, these sets have sold for $30 to $35 except for August 2nd when they sold for $50+. They are still in the same price range. They really haven't gone up or down.
Again you've missed the point of my statement which simply put is that a sale price of $32.95, if you're paying for shipping and packing materials, does not provide any profit if you paid $29.95 for said item.
Now you're trying to incorporate yet another scenario replete with desperate sellers, also? You have a penchant for twisting and extrapolating verbiage to suit your narrative or to claim you are "right" but those hypotheticals were not part of the initial point or my counterpoint, which is that there is no room for profit if you are buying an item for $29.95 and selling said item for $32.95.
Sir, it is YOU, who have changed the discussion. My original comment was simply that the market price hasn't changed and is still above the Mint price. I NEVER mentioned profit margin or anything else.
I FULLY understood your point about profit and pointed out that it was (and is) IRRELEVANT to my point about market price.
Again you've missed the point of my statement which simply put is that a sale price of $32.95, if you're paying for shipping and packing materials, does not provide any profit if you paid $29.95 for said item.
Now you're trying to incorporate yet another scenario replete with desperate sellers, also? You have a penchant for twisting and extrapolating verbiage to suit your narrative or to claim you are "right" but those hypotheticals were not part of the initial point or my counterpoint, which is that there is no room for profit if you are buying an item for $29.95 and selling said item for $32.95.
This would be true. And if you hadn't made it a counterargument to my true statement, there would be no issue.
I would also point out that since dealers are buying these sets at $24 or so, a dealer could be selling at $32.95 and making money. That is why we can't know and shouldn't care about margins when establishing MARKET PRICE.
If the market price is $32.95, DEALERS CAN MAKE MONEY buying at $29.95 and selling at $32.95 - they just do it over the counter. My local dealer bought his sets, which he's selling at $35, from the Mint at $29.95.
@coinpalice said:
mcm has overhead, about 50 employees so they have a payroll to meet. they have to turn the sets
Agreed. They also probably made enough on the slabbed sets and the other hundreds of raw sets they sold so they don't care about dumping the rest at a loss.
Although, again I'm left wondering about what special terms they might get from eBay. MCM probably got their sets at $28.50. It costs them less than $3 to ship them. That's $31.50 [ignoring overhead]. Do we know that THEIR eBay fees are more than $1.50? All the big guys selling all that bullion MUST get special rates, no? Otherwise, how is it possibly worth their while to sell ASE's on eBay?
They are selling bullion at $20 per ounce in lots of 5 to 10. So, consider the $100 lots: MY eBay/PayPal fees would be $8.80 plus shipping of about $3. That would leave me (rounded) net $88 which is only $17.60 which is LESS THAN THE WHOLESALE price of eagles (about $1 over spot for non-current years) and barely over WHOLESALE on the maple leafs. They MUST get significant fee discounts or they would just wholesale the bullion themselves.
@coinpalice said:
so why not just say the current profit margin is negative on this set?
Are you addressing me or Grote?
I'll answer for both of us. LOL.
The current EBAY margin for SMALL sellers is negative. The current margin for shops is still positive because there is no incremental cost of sale over the counter. And I'm suspicious that MCM might even be making money on eBay because I think they get a super sweetheart deal on fees.
If MCM pays 3% to eBay (instead of 6.15% like me) and they get the sub 2% PayPal rate of the big guys, their net costs are only about 5% ($1.50). That means with $3 shipping they would break even at, oddly, $32.95.
If they pay 5% eBay + 2% PayPal, that's 7% net with about $3.50 shipping on the 10 oz. So, that's $13.20 in fees + $3.50 shipping [again, no overhead consideration] for a net $170.87 With silver at $17.06 today, they'd be making 27 cents to cover overhead, risk, etc.
They must pay, at most 5% total. I'd even make a small wager it's less than that.
@coinpalice said:
maybe he was including paypal in that figure? anyway hat was my offline discount
That might make sense, although I swear that barely makes it worthwhile. At 5% total, the eagle price above ends up at net $174.63 which is still only a $4 profit margin over spot - again, ignoring the cost of overhead.
they bought 1,000's of congratulations sets, that alone gives them options to sell other things at close to cost and like you said, graded coins they sell are money makers too
@coinpalice said:
they bought 1,000's of congratulations sets, that alone gives them options to sell other things at close to cost and like you said, graded coins they sell are money makers too
Except those aren't specials. They sell bullion constantly at those prices.
@coinpalice said:
so why not just say the current profit margin is negative on this set?
Exactly, lol.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Person A and B, who do not appear to be buying or selling are telling person C, who is buying and selling, that he cannot make money, while person C is saying I have made money.
It is the same logic that people who do not sell on ebay say that you cannot make money on ebay due to fees, pp costs, returns, scams, margin, etc. while the people who sell on ebay somehow make a lot of money doing so.
@coinpalice said:
it would be interesting if anyone ever got bad feedback for selling a set with bubbles. I know if bought a set and wasn't aware of the problems with bubbles in this set, I wouldn't be happy
Not only would I not be happy, I would also ding the seller with a neg. if it wasn't disclosed. I may be old, but not crusty.
Remind me to block you. If you are going to neg someone for selling you an original set in original OGP.
A picture of your bar would be appreciated...btw 10k were produced last year. This must a new batch. I wonder what the numbers are. I just noticed, not a new bar, but a continuation. So far they've sold over 17k.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
Comments
Ironically, I think the graded sets will go down in the future. They've already dropped far more than the raw sets.
Actually, that's not true. Commercial rate for shipping a set is $2.61 up to 4 ounces, $2.77 from 4-8 ounces. Single set weight 7 ounces packaged. Bubble envelope costs 6 cents plus about 5 cents worth of wrap.
But, again, I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. MCM is probably losing money on the sets. But the sale price is still what it always has been: $30 to $35. Only MCM needs to care whether they are making or losing money. They are probably trying to clear inventory. They've made their money and they are moving on.
Remember when Coinpalice used to be pumping this set....
By the way, I've sold almost 2/3 of my inventory at an average NET sale price of $34.13. Dang, I missed the mark by 87 cents.
My belief in these sets remains. My expectations, always modest, remain modest. I've called for this - from the beginning to be a $40 to $50 set 2 years down the road. I still believe that.
the missing sets are irrelevant at this time, more sets would cause prices to decline even more, a sell out the prices remain the same
Most sets are now selling for between $30 and $34 with free shipping on eBay. There are a couple selling for a couple more dollars occasionally. Any way you look at it sellers are losing money on them. Factor in your time and free shipping and shipping material costs and these are now officially dogs!! Woof, woof.....
Actually, the missing sets would simply preserve the status quo with $30 to $35 prices.
i still believe these sets have a chance to go up in a few years, but short term is looking bleak for these sets
And have been hitting in the low 30s for a while.
They are averaging a couple dollars more than before they went unavailable
still upset my big order for the congratulations set was 20 seconds too late
So the cost to ship is irrelevant even though the seller has to pay it? LOL. well, yes, in that case your statement is correct even though that wasn't the point of my initial response to your statement. I thought that was obvious.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
That, I agree with. The Mint (with the help of the 20,000 canceled sets) managed to botch this up. They actually continue to botch this up by failing to declare their intentions. They were selling 1000 per day before they went unavailable, where have those customers gone? Are they waiting for the Mint to contact them?
I'm currently selling a few at $35. Sales in the last week are up about 400%. Is that people getting tired of waiting for the Mint?
I put the last 100 away until next year when I expect firmer prices and less supply uncertainty.
I agree. I really don't see the price having changed much.
When you buy bread at the store, do you look at the price of the bread or the profit margin of the seller? Would you pay more to get your bread delivered from 2000 miles away because it cost the seller more to get it to you?
The SALE PRICE of the sets is the only thing that matters. It is the only thing that tells you what the market is for the item.
If I buy a bunch of these at $15 each from someone desperate and sell them on eBay at $25 for a 30% profit, are you telling me that means the market is STRONGER than MCM losing money at $32.95?
Since August 1st, these sets have sold for $30 to $35 except for August 2nd when they sold for $50+. They are still in the same price range. They really haven't gone up or down.
i know several people who will never buy anything from the secondary market even at u.s. mint prices. they just don't support flippers
Given that my point was simply that the price was $32.95 which is higher than the last sets the Mint sold, your discussion of shipping costs IS totally irrelevant to my statement. I never mentioned profit margins. I'm not MCM. I don't care what there margins are.
another thing is some people want fresh unsearched sets, they are afraid of getting sets that were cherry picked
Jesse James still at $37.75
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-S-225TH-ANNIVERSARY-ENHANCED-UNCIRCULATED-10-COIN-SET-17XC-PENNY-QUARTERS/232409690179?epid=2278096901&hash=item361cb27043:g:2bMAAOSwjTlZg2vY:sc:USPSFirstClass!14609!US!-1
Liberty still at $37.75
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidsLogin&item=401384526791&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2564
Champion appears not to be selling raw sets anymore
mcm has overhead, about 50 employees so they have a payroll to meet. they have to turn the sets
Again you've missed the point of my statement which simply put is that a sale price of $32.95, if you're paying for shipping and packing materials, does not provide any profit if you paid $29.95 for said item.
Now you're trying to incorporate yet another scenario replete with desperate sellers, also? You have a penchant for twisting and extrapolating verbiage to suit your narrative or to claim you are "right" but those hypotheticals were not part of the initial point or my counterpoint, which is that there is no room for profit if you are buying an item for $29.95 and selling said item for $32.95.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I've also seen a lot of people who ONLY buy from the secondary market because they are brand loyal. You should see the collections I buy. Many times, the Mint products are divorced from the Mint packaging because the "secondary market supplier" doesn't want the fish...er...customer to know where the sets came from.
Sir, it is YOU, who have changed the discussion. My original comment was simply that the market price hasn't changed and is still above the Mint price. I NEVER mentioned profit margin or anything else.
I FULLY understood your point about profit and pointed out that it was (and is) IRRELEVANT to my point about market price.
jesse_james_rare_coins gets 65 looks a day, how? i don't know, the sub title might help
This would be true. And if you hadn't made it a counterargument to my true statement, there would be no issue.
I would also point out that since dealers are buying these sets at $24 or so, a dealer could be selling at $32.95 and making money. That is why we can't know and shouldn't care about margins when establishing MARKET PRICE.
If the market price is $32.95, DEALERS CAN MAKE MONEY buying at $29.95 and selling at $32.95 - they just do it over the counter. My local dealer bought his sets, which he's selling at $35, from the Mint at $29.95.
Agreed. They also probably made enough on the slabbed sets and the other hundreds of raw sets they sold so they don't care about dumping the rest at a loss.
Although, again I'm left wondering about what special terms they might get from eBay. MCM probably got their sets at $28.50. It costs them less than $3 to ship them. That's $31.50 [ignoring overhead]. Do we know that THEIR eBay fees are more than $1.50? All the big guys selling all that bullion MUST get special rates, no? Otherwise, how is it possibly worth their while to sell ASE's on eBay?
yeah, like i stated earlier, a big order that was cancelled or declined cost thousands of people thousands of dollars
I mean, look at these MCM offerings:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-Great-Britain-2-Pound-1-oz-Silver-Britannia-Lot-of-5-SKU43885/142175141335?hash=item211a4c7dd7:g:UJoAAOSwal5YI3BG
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-Canada-5-1-oz-Silver-Maple-Leaf-Lot-of-10-Coins-GEM-BU-SKU44168/132005158700?hash=item1ebc1edf2c:g:AXkAAOSwXeJYLGtw
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Grab-Bag-of-5-Random-Year-1-Oz-American-Silver-Eagle-Coins-SKU39414/382031327181?hash=item58f2d76fcd:g:uWsAAOSwIgNXs2Sb
They are selling bullion at $20 per ounce in lots of 5 to 10. So, consider the $100 lots: MY eBay/PayPal fees would be $8.80 plus shipping of about $3. That would leave me (rounded) net $88 which is only $17.60 which is LESS THAN THE WHOLESALE price of eagles (about $1 over spot for non-current years) and barely over WHOLESALE on the maple leafs. They MUST get significant fee discounts or they would just wholesale the bullion themselves.
True. But you also have to include the low end flippers who caused the snow-ball effect .
And look at this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RANDOM-DATE-1-10-Troy-Oz-Fine-Gold-American-Eagle-5-Coin-SKU26123/141439750331?hash=item20ee7750bb:g:vF4AAOSwajVUPrnU
For ME, it would cost about $16.50 to sell it which would be NET $132.70 which is again less than wholesale on Eagles.
so why not just say the current profit margin is negative on this set?
Are you addressing me or Grote?
I'll answer for both of us. LOL.
The current EBAY margin for SMALL sellers is negative. The current margin for shops is still positive because there is no incremental cost of sale over the counter. And I'm suspicious that MCM might even be making money on eBay because I think they get a super sweetheart deal on fees.
If MCM pays 3% to eBay (instead of 6.15% like me) and they get the sub 2% PayPal rate of the big guys, their net costs are only about 5% ($1.50). That means with $3 shipping they would break even at, oddly, $32.95.
Brand loyalty?
apmex told me on the phone he pays 5 percent final value fees
Including PayPal or not?
They just can't pay that much or they are stupid. LOL.
I mean, here's an APMex silver bar:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-oz-Silver-Bar-APMEX-SKU-88929/112615668898?epid=210511664&hash=item1a386abca2:g:MusAAOSwT5tWNhwc
If they pay 5% eBay + 2% PayPal, that's 7% net with about $3.50 shipping on the 10 oz. So, that's $13.20 in fees + $3.50 shipping [again, no overhead consideration] for a net $170.87 With silver at $17.06 today, they'd be making 27 cents to cover overhead, risk, etc.
They must pay, at most 5% total. I'd even make a small wager it's less than that.
maybe he was including paypal in that figure? anyway hat was my offline discount
That might make sense, although I swear that barely makes it worthwhile. At 5% total, the eagle price above ends up at net $174.63 which is still only a $4 profit margin over spot - again, ignoring the cost of overhead.
they bought 1,000's of congratulations sets, that alone gives them options to sell other things at close to cost and like you said, graded coins they sell are money makers too
they are also looking for more Brand loyalty customers, no better way then to throw some deals
Except those aren't specials. They sell bullion constantly at those prices.
it's fun to watch the frenzy but you guys should open up a chat window or private conversation
Exactly, lol.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
i like this bar, i have number 9 of 10,000
https://www.ebay.com/itm/eBay-RCM-10oz-9999-Fine-Silver-Bar/331754434878?hash=item4d3e1af13e:g:XjgAAOSwk~NZy8Yb
got it for 150 about a year ago in a no reserve
maybe they are hoping for silver to go up a lot, so they can raise prices like the futures market
Thread may go Poof
85% of this thread now is
Person A and B, who do not appear to be buying or selling are telling person C, who is buying and selling, that he cannot make money, while person C is saying I have made money.
It is the same logic that people who do not sell on ebay say that you cannot make money on ebay due to fees, pp costs, returns, scams, margin, etc. while the people who sell on ebay somehow make a lot of money doing so.
That sums up the last 28 pages.
Return to your lives, Citizens.
.> @coinpalice said:
A picture of your bar would be appreciated...btw 10k were produced last year. This must a new batch. I wonder what the numbers are. I just noticed, not a new bar, but a continuation. So far they've sold over 17k.
No Black Friday reappearance.
Price remains in the $33 to $35 range on eBay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2017-S-US-Mint-225th-Anniversary-Enhanced-Uncirculated-10-Coin-Set-W-Box-And/152790252062
LOL.... $ 23.50 with Free Shipping for a 225th set