UPDATE 10/26/2019: Variety of the Week: 1938-S Modified Steps (Hobo Nickel Crew Chimes In!)
BigDowgie
Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭✭
Jefferson Nickel Variety of the Week: 1938-S....What is going on here?
Sorry about not crafting these fun and exciting posts in a while.....I forgot my log-in information!
A friend of mine located this 1938-S in a nice Danso Set. The only thing I can say about it is WOW! Obviously the steps are unlike any Reverse 38 steps I've ever seen. The line details are so incredibly perfect that I cannot envision someone engraving with such precision. The lines perfectly fade into the middle area very naturally. I see no evidence of any stray engraving marks. Also, the surface patina of the steps match the rest of the coin.
These are crazy looking steps, can they be legit? I'm awaiting reply from James Wiles, but in the meantime, what do you think?
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Comments
At first glance it appears to be a slight doubled die.
Hey Cap.......focus on the steps!
reverse of 40 experiment
I'm thinking ejection doubling.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I did. My first impression was that a minor die doubling could cause that effect on the steps. This is just a first impression, and I would love to be proved wrong by somebody that can show that this is some sort of pattern or trial step design. Has anybody found a duplicate yet?
Very cool!
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Type of 1938 over type of 1940 or vice-versa?
That is very strange.
OK, a few updates.
1. I withdraw my first suggestion that this might be some sort of minor doubled die. The more I study the picture, the more I think that is not the case.
2. Just got off the phone with Jefferson nickel maven Bern Nagengast. Sent him a link to the pictures, and he confirms that he has never seen this before, despite looking at the steps on a LOT of nickels including original BU rolls of 1938-S's. I suggested that he register with the forum and join the discussion. He should be here shortly.
3. We discussed the POSSIBILITY that this is/was a pattern die created after the original 1938 reverse proved to be such a problem striking up, and that it was tested and found to not be an improvement, and that the Mint then went on to create the well-known Reverse of 1940. We agreed that this is wonderful speculation, but that we have no idea if it is correct or not.
4. I suggested that once the pattern die was found to be wanting that it was shipped to San Francisco for business strike use rather than waste it. Again we agreed that this was plausible speculation but that there is no evidence that this happened.
TD
Don't know why the font is off in previous post. How can I edit the font?
I did not realize Bern is still alive! I have his autographed book, I'm a big fan of his, but somehow got the wrong impression.
Mr. Nagengast,
If you see this post, YOU ARE AWESOME!!! and one of my coin HEROS!!!
Rocco
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Is it possible someone tried to re-engrave the steps on this coin? The way the top one passes through an area that was otherwise very weakly struck makes me think it could have been debossed after the fact.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I am also wondering about PMD - coinfacts pics
well, this should be a good thread and ensure that EVERYONE pulls out any 1938-S Jefferson Nickels they have for a closer look. my first impression is some type of striking issue that is an anomaly which affected only this coin.
Kind of reminiscent of Lincoln Memorial steps
CaptHenway,
Thanks for the expanded thoughts. I hope Bern joins and weighs in. James Wiles currently has the coins and hope to get his thoughts in a couple days. I'll post when I have them.
Sean, that metal surface looks absolutely original to me. There is even fine horizontal texturing on the individual steps that I don't think that anybody could fake.
Plus, if somebody had re-engraved this coin, why in the heck would they have left that void in the middle????
TD
I have known Bern since the mid-1970's when we were fellow officers of the Shelby County Coin Club in Sidney, Ohio. I suggested to him that he buy and run the E&T Kointainer Company.
A neat find! I find it interesting... and hope another one can be found.
Could somebody please post pictures of a normal 1938-S for comparison?
It is because you used a pound sign next to your numerals. It's this bb's code to make font larger, just like underscores surrounding a word make it in italics.
If you're making a numbered list, the succeeding digit will drop down automatically like it does in MS Word or open office.
I've got a roll of 38s XF-AU I'll look in the morning. I was at them last week and saw something different on the reverse of some but didn't note a huge difference. Tbh I think it's a different reverse variety. Just from what you posted, I mean.
This is interesting.... Always amazes me how something new pops up two or three times a year.... I do not have any '38S Jeffersons to check... wish I did...Look forward to seeing this progress to conclusion. Cheers, RickO
@Azurescens....thanks!
Just posted a notice of the coin on the coin dealer network, asking people to check their inventories.
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
Very nice!
Can you show the entire normal reverse just so we can see if there are any other differences?
the left inside edge of the steps under column 1 seems raised to me, indicating PMD
the nicks on the steps above NT are also non-typical
A random thought....one naturally wonders why, with so many Jefferson nickel collectors looking at steps on coins, nobody ever noticed this possible design variation before.
One possible explanation....If the hypothetical design variation was such a spectacular failure that it ALWAYS showed that large weak area in the center of the steps, the step collectors might have glanced at the coins, seen the weak area, and dismissed the coin(s) without even looking at the steps on either side of the weak area.
Thoughts? Opinions? Any step collectors out there who would like to say if they would have automatically dismissed this coin without looking at the ends of the steps?
TD
I looked and can't find my 38-39 roll. I found an EF with, of course, few step lines. I did notice a change in the spacing of font and size of font. And as if the 38-S coin in question has the steps more raised and "tighter", which is probably why nobody saw this before.
I made a thread a little while ago about 38 aging 39 being such problem coins. I'm starting to think the higher steps, extra space between font, and size of font - I'm talking like micrometers here - varies on the reverse. There appear to be subtle changes on both reverses before the 1940 strikes. "Problem coin" in the sense that if one thing looks different then 3 or 4 other non-traditional things exist on it. Like if it's a 1938 with a weak 8, Monticello will look different.
I'll see if I can get better examples.. I'm missing a lot of 1938 and 1938-S.. so they must be somewhere. I know I've seen a 39 with what OP is describing.
What can I use as a point of measurement under a 20x loop? There is a slight slight slight font difference and "height" of stairs both up onto Monticello and raising off the surface of the coin.
I've looked at many thousands of these and have never seen one like it.
It has me (temporarily) stumped.
It was second nature to loop every early date Jefferson, I would have immediately noticed an anomaly as such and stopped in my tracks for a second look. Die hard step collectors even go so far as count pillars and label how many steps can be seen under each pillar, such 6556 meaning 6 steps under 1 & 4 and the required 5 steps can be seen under pillar 2&3 In order to accurately do this, requires a 10X loupe.
Still, and interesting topic.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I've never seen one a these before. Extremely cool and thanks for sharing, again. You sure do know your Jeffs!!
Hi Guys. I'm new to the group. Thanks to BigDawgie
I am the fellow that found this piece. Purchased at Greenhill Coin Show. North of Cincinnati, I believe. A few weeks ago. The coin is as I found it.
The situation you posed about scanning for steps and quickly moving on, is exactly what I was doing to the book of Jeffersons.
The coins eye appeal and the fact that It was the best looking coin in the set, got my attention. Saw the steps and then the fun started.
So I sent some pictures to BigD. Got his attention, got them together.
And ya'll pretty much know the rest.
Really excited about it. How could this float around for 79 years, and be unknown?
Welcome aboard @nickelJones
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Thanks. I look forward to sharing and learning. Greatest thing about this hobby, always more to learn.
Hi there, NickelJones! Great catch, no matter what it turns out to be!
Just saw James Wiles pictures of the steps. For the record there are three wide steps in question, plus a narrow base below that. From the pictures above I thought it was four wide steps, with the bottom one fading off of the "cliff" that is the bottom edge of Monticello. This is not the case.
Azurescens - Thanks for posting the step pictures. Very helpful to really see the differences.
Nickeljones - It's about time you got in here....this is your baby!
Bern N. here at invitation of Tom D. to join the postings.
As Tom already noted after he talked to me, I have never seen any Jefferson with a step area like this one discovered by nickeljones.
Some random thoughts:
1. The coin appears to be original, not altered or re-engraved.
2. If this was some sort of random die with a different design, why San Francisco and not Philadelphia? I posited this to Tom when I talked with him and he commented that it could have been accidentally sent to SF - a trial die, punched with the S along with many other working dies being sent to the SF mint. Certainly a possibility.
3. It is documented that the first approved design, after trial production, was modified. There are no known examples of the first trial production, all examples apparently being destroyed. Did a trial working die, with a step design as on the nickeljones coin, survive with a fate as posited by Tom in 2 above?
4. There were a number of submitted designs for the Jefferson Nickel. At least two, those submitted by Henry Kreis and Anthony DeFrancisci, had a reverse with 4 thick, straight steps (that count includes the porch and base step). We know that the mint discarded Schlag's submitted reverse and then apparently screwed around with the other designs resulting in a composite of several designs, giving no credit to the other designs. We don't know how far the "screwing" process went as far as trial dies and so on.
5. Historically speaking, anything is possible when it comes to the US Mint! This could even be a hand modification of a working die by someone with engraving expertise and idle time. After all, this was 1938, the height of the secondary depression of 1938-39 (if you don't know what that refers to, there were two depressions within the "great depression" just look at the mintage figures! - they verify what discerning economists have already concluded.) With the low 1938 mintages, there could have been a lot of idle time at the mints!
6. Seems to me that the first step is to authenticate the coin as genuine and have it in-hand inspected by folks with the necessary expertise like Tom. (Not me - I am not an authenticator!) And as Tom suggested, let's find more examples.
note to Rocco: Thanks for the "awesome" comment but, really, anyone can be an expert by studying lots of coins and then sharing what you learned with others. Next thing you know, some folks think you are some kind of expert!
note to nickeljones: you wondered how your discovery floated around for 79 years and be unknown. Well it can! If you've been around Numismatics awhile, these discoveries happen more frequently than common sense would predict!
Welcome to the boards ICEBOXBERN, this should be interesting - and maybe as rare as the 1942-S nickel.
Hey there, Bern!
This is very exciting.
Great thread...This is what it is supposed to be all about. Right here.
Bern, I was not aware of the earlier production run mentioned in your item number 3. Can you send me the background information on that?
TD
Well, I assume that nobody cherry picked one today.
Reading Bern's very informative post just now. A thought occurs to me. If this is a survivor of a die trial run, might the obverse die, as well as the reverse, be a trial die? I got so excited by the reverse steps that I can't remember giving the front more than a glance.
It is not impossible that they only tweaked one side. That said, an overlay would be a good idea.
Edited to add: If somebody could please post large pictures of a normal 1938-S obverse and reverse here, comparable to the OP's excellent pictures, that might help everybody look for anomalies.
If another member does not do it first, I will post pictures Monday night. I will take the picture exactly like I did the OP. I did not think about examining variations in the obverse and reverse design details.
""note to nickeljones: you wondered how your discovery floated around for 79 years and be unknown. Well it can! If you've been around Numismatics awhile, these discoveries happen more frequently than common sense would predict!""
Look how long it took for the 1919 DDO Dime to be discovered! And that is really obvious.
I made two discoveries in the bust dollar series in the 1990's, one the difference in the number of vertical lines in the stripes on the shield and the other a die that had the left upright on the N of UNITED punched over a letter I, and that was a well-studied field long before I was born.