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UPDATE 10/26/2019: Variety of the Week: 1938-S Modified Steps (Hobo Nickel Crew Chimes In!)

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  • OldEastsideOldEastside Posts: 4,602 ✭✭✭✭✭

    WOW, never saw anything like that, My first thought was it almost looks as it was machined off, definitely very very interesting for sure.

    Steve

    Promote the Hobby
  • Hey Big Dowgie. Have you looked at your rejected reverse design piece for any similarities to this one?

  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,117 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I collected FS nickels starting back in the 70's. Never saw or heard of anything like the OP coin.

    Just wanted to sat hi to BernN and thank him for the research he shared. Between him, and A Weiss who organized the FS nickel club, that really put collecting Jeff nickels on the map.

    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭✭

    I posted a picture of a regular 1938-S. The strike is not the greatest, but wanted to post a raw coin picture. I could not get a good picture of my graded 1938-S.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,168 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for posting the picture. I flipped back and forth and did not spot any differences other than the steps.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2017 4:39PM

    I updated with my MS66FS. This has a better strike. I could not see anything that stands out either. Although, the strike on the OP coin is pretty strong and clean. This would conclude it is an early die state. Which would support a die trial piece?

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Anyone who has collected this series would immediately notice the steps difference, irrespective of the flatness in the center. I too have looked at a lot of 38-S Jeffs and never seen anything like this. I'm excited for Nickeljones!

    Hey Bernard! Still have a copy of your Jefferson Nickel Analyst.

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BigDowgie said:
    I updated with my MS66FS. This has a better strike. I could not see anything that stands out either. Although, the strike on the OP coin is pretty strong and clean. This would conclude it is an early die state. Which would support a die trial piece?

    I love to see the Sherlock Holmes of Jeff Nickels at work! B)

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,168 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bolivarshagnasty said:
    Anyone who has collected this series would immediately notice the steps difference, irrespective of the flatness in the center. I too have looked at a lot of 38-S Jeffs and never seen anything like this. I'm excited for Nickeljones!

    Hey Bernard! Still have a copy of your Jefferson Nickel Analyst.

    Just playing devil's advocate, this is a well struck coin. What if the great majority of the coins from this die showed little of no steps? It was, after all, not a successful trial (if indeed it was a trial; this remains to be seen).

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 6,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:

    @bolivarshagnasty said:
    Anyone who has collected this series would immediately notice the steps difference, irrespective of the flatness in the center. I too have looked at a lot of 38-S Jeffs and never seen anything like this. I'm excited for Nickeljones!

    Just playing devil's advocate, this is a well struck coin. What if the great majority of the coins from this die showed little of no steps? It was, after all, not a successful trial (if indeed it was a trial; this remains to be seen).

    Also once the coin has hit circulation and becomes XF or lower, you will not be able to see anything on steps.

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:

    @bolivarshagnasty said:
    Anyone who has collected this series would immediately notice the steps difference, irrespective of the flatness in the center. I too have looked at a lot of 38-S Jeffs and never seen anything like this. I'm excited for Nickeljones!

    Hey Bernard! Still have a copy of your Jefferson Nickel Analyst.

    Just playing devil's advocate, this is a well struck coin. What if the great majority of the coins from this die showed little of no steps? It was, after all, not a successful trial (if indeed it was a trial; this remains to be seen).

    We could "what if" this to death. What if this is a trial example snuck out of the mint by an employee. Only 1 known as in the 42 small S. All I am saying is, had I crossed paths with this coin instead of Nickeljones, I would have immediately noted the steps NOT being the norm. I would have purchased this coin if for no other reason than that.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,168 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What is the weight of the coin in question?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭✭

    Good question! James Wiles currently has the coin and have not received any feedback yet. I will ask if this is something that he has/will perform. I can't wait for his assessment. I will share as soon as I hear anything.

    Thanks

  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭

    How long has Wiles had it now?

  • BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭✭

    My hope is that he is performing an extensive investigation on this coin! It has been in his possession since 3/10!

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BigDowgie said:
    My hope is that he is performing an extensive investigation on this coin! It has been in his possession since 3/10!

    That is "extensive"! ;)

  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DIMEMAN said:

    @BigDowgie said:
    My hope is that he is performing an extensive investigation on this coin! It has been in his possession since 3/10!

    That is "extensive"! ;)

    I used to help coordinate variety attributions for CONECA in the late 1990s; trust me, that's not an "extensive" period of time.

    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,168 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What Sean said. This coin deserves a long and careful study.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • Hey guys. Let me start by clearing up a little bit of info. The coin was in a deluxe Whitman folder holding a circulated set. In all the excitement and confusion, and having several sets piled up to look for comparisons, I'm not surprised BigD misquoted that fact. The piece sat for a week before I found the large steps.

    A thought occurs about the mint mark. Testing a completely new die design, would you not test with all variables in play. Is there a law concerning mint marks and location of manufacture. If so, would a controlled testing be exempt? Long story short, could the mint mark be a variable to disregard? At this point I am open for any theories to ponder.

    This is a wild ride. So much to thank BigDowgie for. He got alot of attention stirred up and now everyone is paying notice.

  • BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭✭

    Mr. Wiles is taking a long thoughtful study of this example. He said he will be posting his observations / conclusion on his VarietyVista website soon. I will let folks know when this happens and pull his comments into the post.

    Nickeljones - Thanks for pulling me in, but now you won't sell it to me for $10!

  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭

    I finally located a roll of 1938-S that I pulled from circulation as a kid. I was pretty excited at the onset but my hopes were quickly dashed as even the EF examples had no step detail evident.

  • BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭✭

    Mr. Wiles posted his study results on VarietyVista! Post your thoughts!

    varietyvista.com/News%20and%20Studies.htm

  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,677 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 24, 2017 7:39AM

    I think it is a Master die variety.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BigDowgie said:
    Mr. Wiles posted his study results on VarietyVista! Post your thoughts!

    varietyvista.com/News%20and%20Studies.htm

    That was disappointing.

  • cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 7,910 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We're definitely in "need another example" territory.

    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What I find disappointing is trying to figure out some characteristic on a coin from photos! Dr. Wiles is one of the best; however, If I owned the coin it would be sent out to an expert such as Dr. Wiles so he could examine the coin in hand. That would rule out any comments on alterations. I also feel the professionals at ANACS or ICG would give the coin more study than it would receive at the other services.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,168 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BigDowgie said:
    Mr. Wiles posted his study results on VarietyVista! Post your thoughts!

    varietyvista.com/News%20and%20Studies.htm

    So, we need a second specimen. Until somebody finds one, this will remain a mystery.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭✭

    Dr. Wiles did have the coin to study and take pictures of. While it would have been nice for him to conclude this to be a genuine mint trial specimen, however, without mint records to verify or a second example, it would be tough to conclude otherwise. We all need to keep looking for that second example!

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    .
    super duper large close-ups would be nice.

    i do mean, offensively large, in dimension, not mb/kb.
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BigDowgie said:
    Dr. Wiles did have the coin to study and take pictures of. While it would have been nice for him to conclude this to be a genuine mint trial specimen, however, without mint records to verify or a second example, it would be tough to conclude otherwise. We all need to keep looking for that second example!

    Well then, due to his knowledge, experience and credentials there should be NO CONSIDERATION that the coin was engraved outside the mint. Why he added that is a mystery to me. I'm pretty sure he uses a stereomicroscope and that is all that's needed to rule out any alteration.

  • BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭✭

    When the coin is returned, NickelJones and I will post some "LARGE" photos.

    I guess this coin may end up like the 1942-S (Frith example with the S to the right of Monticello). While all evidence is that it is real, without Mint acknowledgement or a second example, it can't be legitimized.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BigDowgie said:
    When the coin is returned, NickelJones and I will post some "LARGE" photos.

    I guess this coin may end up like the 1942-S (Frith example with the S to the right of Monticello). While all evidence is that it is real, without Mint acknowledgement or a second example, it can't be legitimized.

    I disagree with this. Any competent numismatist should be able to look at the coin and determine it is genuine and special! There may not be any other examples in existence! As I posted, send the coin to ICG or ANACS and let them take the plunge.

    I found an unknown over date coin once and sold it to a dealer. He asked for his money back when one of the top two TPGS would not certify it as genuine (there was no record of the over date and no additional examples were known). Shame on them! It was a "naked-eye" example on an AU coin! I still have it and decades ago it was published and other examples have been found since.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BigDowgie

    I just tried to Private Message you but your "name" did not come up. Please PM me.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BigDowgie said:
    When the coin is returned, NickelJones and I will post some "LARGE" photos.

    I guess this coin may end up like the 1942-S (Frith example with the S to the right of Monticello). While all evidence is that it is real, without Mint acknowledgement or a second example, it can't be legitimized.

    from what i've read and heard, this site and in-person, the jury is out on the Frith nickel as being reported that a "seam" is visible where the mm meets the field.

    since i got this info. second-hand but it was posted and not refuted, i would not put my life on the line whether what i heard/read is true, a certain numismatist, probably more than 1, viewed the mm with specialized equip to verify this. the coin has seriously "been around."

    i think i know to whom it went back to but it matters not, at least to me. i viewed the coin in-hand but it wasn't the proper opportunity to do a "professional" verification, especially any more than the TPGs, senior numismatists that have studied it for what must now be decades and i certainly have no more desire, resources or knowledge that any of them, especially combined. my 2c.

    i just recently came across the images for the 1805 dollar in my database. i need to see if i can find those decent images of that 1815 large cent too. looks darn convincing from the pics. ;)

    since all the work has been done that needs be done for this coin from the OP, the nickel, i will say, i've 100% seen something that REALLY got my mind going about that familiarity of those lines in the middle of the steps being on the top of what appears to be bigger steps, that particular look but can't for the life of me recall where i've seen that similarity but there is something, probably from this forum, that spooked me when i first saw the images. i just remember my first instinct as being, "now where have i seen that before." no idea about what or where it was/might have been. fwiw.
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 25, 2017 2:58AM

    I just don't know what to think of this assessment? There are many ifs and buts, but nothing definite. Hmmm?

    I don't particularly like the wait and see attitude without any sort of commitment.

    I will reserve judgement when the LARGE images are published.

    Chat Board Lingo

    "Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I read Dr. Wiles pros and cons. Did he give a reason why he could not conclude if the steps were hand carved or minted. I would have thought hand carved might have had some obvious traits.

    As Wiles mentions, I struggle with a Hobo carver not modifying the steps all the way across. The center step weakness sure looks like the weakness we see on all Jeffersons of that era.

    Lastly, Was there any indication from Nickeljones on how long he thought the nickel had been in the album? (i.e. date on album or notations by owner)

  • Going to a show in the same area this weekend. If I can learn any additional information, I will be glad to pass it along.

    Haven't checked Variety Vista for the post. Doing that now.

  • Variety and doubled die coins are things that I actively collect. A question if I may. When does it stop being a hobby and start being hoarding?

    Anyway, I poured over the reverse very closely as did BigD. I don't believe any engraving is involved. Having said that, if further scrutiny reveals evidence of tampering, then this has been a huge amount of fun, but I would not recommend it.

    This thing was lost in the mail for a day! I thought BigDowgie was going to convulse.

    It will be explored more. Pictures posted for ya'll here. Contacting other experts sounds good. Any body got a list? The more belivers we have, should be easier to get more people interest in it.

    Dr. Wiles is very well thought of and respected in the numismatic hobby. I mean no disrespect towards him in any way. I would hope maybe more will be found now.

    Type at ya later.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,168 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I do not think it was altered, but I have not seen the coin.
    TD

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    I do not think it was altered, but I have not seen the coin.
    TD

    I did think it was altered, but I also have not seen the coin. ;)

    Perhaps a good person to review the coin next would be a contemporary hobo nickel artist, someone with hands on knowledge about how the coin could have been altered. If that person doesn't have a plausible explanation, it would add weight back into the die variety column.

    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • mannie graymannie gray Posts: 7,259 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I get it that Wiles doesn't want to hang his butt out on this one--I hope it turns out to be a design prototype.
    That would be cool.
    We need to keep looking--although I agree with him that Jefferson Nickels have been heavily searched for decades and another one would likely already have been reported.
    The example of the 1919 Mercury Dime DDO is only somewhat relevant, as I think Jeffersons are searched with probably 25x as much intensity...especially the reverses.
    We will keep looking, and hope for another one to surface, although I'm doubtful.
    Hope usually is not an effective strategy.
    As my grandfather used to say, "Hope in one hand and sh** in the other one, and see which one fills up quicker." :/

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,168 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Who does the best photomicrography work these days? Perhaps he or she could image the steps well enough to prove or disprove the idea that they were engraved on the coin after the strike.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • BigDowgieBigDowgie Posts: 1,771 ✭✭✭✭

    When the coin is returned, NickelJones and I will post some nice large pictures. The right microphotograph should clearly show engraving characteristics or not! If we are technically inclined enough, we will get someone who is. Along with continuing to show this coin to more experts, I like Sean's suggestion, even though he is an initial disbeliever! Taking the coin to a reputable hobo nickel artist and get their opinion. This person should provide an expert opinion whether this detailed step engraving is even possible. Great idea! More to come!

  • seanqseanq Posts: 8,659 ✭✭✭✭✭

    BigDowgie, I would like nothing more than for my initial opinion to be proved wrong, and I'll be the first to admit it with the right support. Don't forget, I'm the guy who thought at first that the 1919 Mercury DDO was a contemporary counterfeit.

    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a Matte Proof. Let PCGS decide.

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    Who does the best photomicrography work these days? Perhaps he or she could image the steps well enough to prove or disprove the idea that they were engraved on the coin after the strike.

    That person would be rpmsrpms on this board. He has posted some phenomenal microphotography.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,869 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's a pretty cool find! Congratulations!

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    someone should do an overlay of the two different Reverse Types, Revers of 1940 on top of Reverse of 1938.

  • CoinZipCoinZip Posts: 3,253 ✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2017 6:21AM

    @CaptHenway said:
    Who does the best photomicrography work these days? Perhaps he or she could image the steps well enough to prove or disprove the idea that they were engraved on the coin after the strike.

    I'm not trying to say I'm the best, but I can provide an image that is 2560x1920 and up to 200x magnification, using a Dino-Lite Microscope.

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